FUR: Withdrawl of Art Rights from DI
Cobalt
3/11/01 I have withdrawn the right to use my art, from Kevin (assinio)
Duane, and Digital Impudendum. The reasons for this are personal, and I
won't go into them here.
Nonetheless, I have withdrawn the right to use my work. Digital
Impudendum, and Kevin especially, no longer have the right to sell any
product which contains my intellectual property. This includes discs
already printed such as Animal Magnetism 1, and Furbidden Fruits, as
well as any future releases that may already be in the pipeline.
Sales of discs which contain my images, either by or on behalf of Kevin
Duane or Digital Impudendum, will be considered as violations of my
intellectual property, and copyright infringement.
Thanks for your time.
-chris (cobalt) sutor*
Cobalt
two newgroups and the fur monitor didn't seem to like that.
magnwa
As someone who purchased a Furbidden Fruits CD.. I was informed that
all artists signed an agreement per the print run. Just out of curiousity,
does that agreement have a termination clause like that? I mean.. I paid
$20 for this CD , and I was told it was relatively on the up and up, until
long after ..
So.. hmm.. Odd. :) Is there an agreement you can have nullfied in court?
Magnwa
Charles Gray
wrote:
It depends on how the contract was written. For instance, in some
cases, an artist will sell a cover to a comic, yet not relenquish
reprint rights on that cover-- in other words, what the company
bought was the right to use that cover, for that comic (depending on
the deal, the artist might have the right to renegotiate if the comic
goes into extra printings). BUT... the artist retains ownership of
the art, and can later use it for other products.
Now, there's another type of purchase, where it's basically work
for hire-- the art, and all rights with it, are purchased by the
company-- the artist retains no rights to it. In that case, he can't
use that art again, not without gaining the permission of the new
owner.
Without knowing what the exact deal is, you couldn't say anything
about this post. However, unless it is explicity laid out in the
contract, it would be hard to see a court enforcing a "no sell" order
on a product. Other printings, are another matter, especially if the
artist retained copyright ownership, but except in cases of outright
fraud, courts are very chary of actually going in and infringing on a
persons right to sell his products.
Does anyone know if all the artist have the same deal for the CD's,
or did each artist negotiate his own type of deal?
Cobalt
>
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 03:55:57 GMT, mag...@magnwa.roarmail.net (magnwa)
> wrote:
>
> It depends on how the contract was written.
At no time was a contract for Furbidden Fruits ever mentioned to me, and
without a contract which explicitly states that the rights to the images
have been purchased, or licensced, and set limits on the use of the
properties, I as creator retain all rights to my work, including the
right to withdraw it from use as I see fit.
There was a contract for Animal Magnetism 1, which is the only project
ever worked on for DI that I received a contract for. The wording in the
document explicitly states that I retain all rights to my work, and DI
has no claim on the images at all. That contract was defaulted upon when
DI went past the contracted deadline for delivery of payment for images
received.
DI has no legal grounds to continue publishing or selling my work
without approval.
-c*
Cobalt
magnwa wrote:
>
> On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:48:30 -0500, Cobalt <christ...@sutor.org> wrote:
>
> As someone who purchased a Furbidden Fruits CD.. I was informed that
> all artists signed an agreement per the print run.
As not only one of the artists involved, but the artist who designed and
created the cover and platter art for Fubiden Fruits, let me say that
you were misinformed. I signed no agreement. No agreement in need of
signture was ever even mentioned to me. This is actually the first I've
heard of it.
> Just out of curiousity,
> does that agreement have a termination clause like that? I mean.. I paid
> $20 for this CD , and I was told it was relatively on the up and up, until
> long after ..
>
> So.. hmm.. Odd. :) Is there an agreement you can have nullfied in court?
Without a signed contract stating terms for licensing the images, or
which states the rights have been purchased, DI has no legal ground to
claim a right to use them. There is nothing to nullify. They never
secured the rights.
-c*
magnwa
>DI has no legal grounds to continue publishing or selling my work
>without approval.
*clears his throat, grinning*
Then take this Kevin chap to court and rip him a new one :)
Magnwa
Smart Ass
<christ...@sutor.org> wrote:
> I'd like to make it known, to the community at large, that as of 2AM on
> 3/11/01 I have withdrawn the right to use my art, from Kevin (assinio)
> Duane, and Digital Impudendum. The reasons for this are personal, and I
> won't go into them here.
Woo! It sure sounds like some TS session on TapestriesMUCK must have
gone seriously awry!
Furplay
I think the "man" is already resembling a collection of buttholes
already. Doubt he'll care if a new one is added.
Too bad Sibe won't post all of Kevin's CD's on the net. Put the
sleazeball out of business, AND liberate the artwork so they don't go
down with him.
Me? I just want to see Kevin twitching his last under the wheels of a
semi truck. Fernando's sworn off doing any commissions anymore thanks to
this jackass, "and that makes me a saaaaaad panda".
Q: What's the difference between Kevin Duane and a sack of crap?
A: the sack
--
"Who is driving? Oh my God! Bear is driving!! How can this be?????"
AJL
First, let me say that I am in no way taking sides on this issue, but I
feel that there are a few facts you should be aware of. I'm offering
this as advice, not as any sort of judgement.
If you had a contract with Kevin Duane, and he allegedly renegged on it,
then you should have dealt with that in the court system. By taking the
issue public, you have created the opportunity for Kevin Duane to file
suit against you, on several points.
(I'm not saying that he would win any of those suits, just that there
are grounds for filing them.)
Also, if you had in the past given permission for the images to be used,
and based on this, Kevin Duane spent money producing the CD's, and then
you said that you retract that permission, Kevin Duane *might* be
justified in demanding retribution for lost expenses from you.
Very sloppy.... If you take Kevin to court, I can see it going one of
three ways:
1) You win and Kevin is permitted to sell the existing CD's that he has
already created, but can't produce any more of them,
2) You *really* win and Kevin is ordered to destroy existing copies of
his CD's that contain your artwork (very unlikely, as you apparently
gave him prior permission to produce them),
3) You lose and Kevin is awarded damages from you equal to the cost of
producing the existing CD's, or
4) You *really* lose and Kevin is also allowed to collect damages equal
to his attorney's fees.
The correct course of action, instead of airing your feelings openly on
the net (and opening yourself up to liability), would have been to
contact an attorney first and let them deal with it. They probably
would have written a short letter to Kevin Duane with the same outcome
as result #1 above, but costing you a LOT less.
--Darrel.
PeterCat
> I think the "man" is already resembling a collection of buttholes
> already. Doubt he'll care if a new one is added.
>
> Too bad Sibe won't post all of Kevin's CD's on the net. Put the
> sleazeball out of business, AND liberate the artwork so they don't go
> down with him.
>
> Me? I just want to see Kevin twitching his last under the wheels of a
> semi truck. Fernando's sworn off doing any commissions anymore thanks
> to this jackass, "and that makes me a saaaaaad panda".
Is it just me, or does anyone else think the guy getting zapped in the
metal detector on the back cover of the latest Wild Side annual
resembles Kevin Duane? Note the CD's spilling from his dropped suitcase.
--
The Furry InfoPage! http://www.tigerden.com/infopage/furry/
pete...@Furry.fan.org (PeterCat) Rhal on FurryMUCK (come cuddle!)
--
"I can't believe what he's doing with those shiitake mushrooms!"
Watch "Iron Chef," Fridays and Saturdays at 10pm (ET) on Food Network!
Gary Akins
>> Me? I just want to see Kevin twitching his last under the wheels of a
>> semi truck. Fernando's sworn off doing any commissions anymore thanks
>> to this jackass, "and that makes me a saaaaaad panda".
>
>Is it just me, or does anyone else think the guy getting zapped in the
>metal detector on the back cover of the latest Wild Side annual
>resembles Kevin Duane? Note the CD's spilling from his dropped suitcase.
Oh, I don't think it _resembles_ KD at all; I think it's quite clearly
intended to _be_ KD in that picture. :)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There is no virtue in suffering fools gladly, for it only encourages them to
persist in their foolishness." --Kehlog Albran
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
solarfox@DON'TMESSWITHtexas.net (Gary Akins jr.)
http://lonestar.texas.net/~solarfox
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doodles
>Is it just me, or does anyone else think the guy getting zapped in the
>metal detector on the back cover of the latest Wild Side annual
>resembles Kevin Duane? Note the CD's spilling from his dropped >suitcase.
Pete?
It _is_ Kevin. I happened to mention it to Martin right after the issue
came out.
Imagine a person who makes even Steve Martin twitchy. That's Kevin Duane in
a nutshell...
Ben_Raccoon
> Imagine a person who makes even Steve Martin twitchy. That's Kevin Duane
in
> a nutshell...
That's impressive. o.o
--
For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered. - Harlan
Ellison.
Shameless website plug. :) http://www.furnation.com/ben_raccoon/
Alan Kennedy
news:98ka7s$b6e$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
> Pete?
>
> It _is_ Kevin. I happened to mention it to Martin right after the issue
> came out.
>
> Imagine a person who makes even Steve Martin twitchy. That's Kevin Duane
in
> a nutshell...
You know, in retrospective back at AC99 Duane (Im guessing now adays as he
mentioned he sold AM cd's) walked into my room as I had the door open,
playing music, just to talk and bullshit. Shortly after, about 20mins or
so, Steve Martin also rambled by to ask if he could use my phone. I said
sure, as he looked pretty distraught, it was funny as I didn't realize WHO
he'd called till after he left, as it was Doug Winger.
Oi... The times I WISH I woulda hooked up my microphone or even had a video
recorder :) heh.
--
Alan Kennedy [TriGem Olandarinse]
EMAIL : trigem@_REMOVEGIBBERISH_portalofevil.com
YAHOO : goldanthrowolf & trigem_olandarinse
WWW : http://www.furnation.com/trigem
ICQ : 8781052
Bruce
Kevin is human - and has good angels and bad angels in him; so you can't
place his personality in a nutshell.
I know that at one Albany Anthrocon Monday-morning-departure Kevin was
hanging around down in the lobby around 5:30am/6:00am when the hotel shuttle
was heading to the airport. Well, the shuttle had no wheelchair lift and
this disabled fan needed to get to the airport. Kevin picked the fellow
(the fan's legs were useless) up with the aid of another individual (the fan
was easily much, MUCH heavier than Kevin) and they struggled to lift the guy
into the shuttle and put him into a seat. Then Kevin came along to go into
the airport and fetch an airline wheelchair to help put the fan into so the
fan could make his flight back home.
Then Kevin went back to the Anthrocon hotel.
I was on that shuttle and headed off on my own west-coast flight with my
brand-new Anthrocon cold, which two days later put me in the hospital. I
was also served my worse series of con food at that convention. It was a
rather interesting convention.
But Kevin is not a simple person to analyze.
Steve is an interesting individual too. Only artist I know of whom you can
purchase a forty dollar con commission from, and who (on commission
conversation eight after two days) he still has not bothered to learn your
first name.
Of course, mine is rather long so perhaps I should be more understanding.
:)
-Bruce
AJL
> Very sloppy.... If you take Kevin to court, I can see it going one of
> three ways:
Ok, four ways... I can't count, ok?
Terry Whittier
Cobalt <christ...@sutor.org> wrote in message
news:3AAC470E...@sutor.org...
> product which contains my intellectual property. This includes discs
> already printed such as Animal Magnetism 1, and Furbidden Fruits, as
> well as any future releases that may already be in the pipeline.
>
> Sales of discs which contain my images, either by or on behalf of Kevin
> Duane or Digital Impudendum, will be considered as violations of my
> intellectual property, and copyright infringement.
Contributions of art to CDs which have already been replicated indicates
that you have agreed to his standard terms. If you were concerned about a
written contract at the time of those contributions, why didn't you request
one prior to handing over your art for all those earlier CDs?
If you currently have work submitted for publication to a new disk that is
not printed yet, I'm sure Kevin will be happy to cut you some slack and
return the publication rights as soon as you return his payments, if any
have already been awarded. It's good for business and it's good for public
relations. Kevin is very professional, and always wants to do the right
thing.
The truth is, the dozens of artists whose works have been published in the
Digital Imp CDs, usually trust Kevin with a verbal agreement, and they are
satisfied with that. Kevin has handed over tens of thousands of dollars in
cash payments (in front of many witnesses, I might add), and in some cases
where the artist has requested it, electronic goods like PC upgrades. It
isn't his fault if memory is imperfect, and sometimes there is a question at
a later time what the exact terms of payment were. And in cases where people
still have a concern, Kevin tries to make good as best he can. It isn't
exactly like he's hard to find, considering how many conventions he has
dealer's tables at. And with the lightning communication of the Internet,
isn't it easy for people to let their gripes be known?
I'm sure that any of the artists who have requested and received a contract
will be happy to read you the applicable parts. There IS a written contract,
and artists who have requested one have gotten them. (In some cases, Kevin
even forces one on them. Kevin likes disclosure and accountability.)
Otherwise, they would not have allowed publication of their art. Heavens,
from what I've heard about him, you would think that Kevin has a magical
vacuum cleaner that he uses to suck art out of file cabinets while artists
sleep.
I would assume that most of the artists who have contributed to his CDs have
been happy with a verbal contract. After all, he's dealing with a very large
number of artists. Where is the hue and cry? Where are the mobs with torches
and pitchforks? So far, about the only thing I've ever heard has been
third-hand innuendo, supposition, and speculation. And malicious, petty
innuendo, at that.
It's so easy to spread false and misleading rumors, after all. Lots of
people love to have someone to pick on, so they can transfer their
frustrations in life to someone else and make themselves feel that they are
better than others. It's so easy to get away with sounding knowledgeable and
wise and pure, by announcing how somebody else is a jerk. (And what I tend
to hear about Kevin falls under the category of "I heard someone say that
they overheard someone else, who thinks someone else said...") There are a
lot of people who enjoy picking on Kevin and other Furrys, and Kevin just
lets it roll off his back. Who has the cooler head, do you think?
magnwa
One artist told me that in lieu of payment, Kevin gave her a
stack of CDs to sell. She was having quite a time selling those
CD's. I'm certain even today she has some. If her story is
true, could Kevin please give her some money and take back his
CDs?
Magnwa
Terry Whittier
give them to friends or they wanted to sell them at conventions. The artists
who wanted to sell them at cons were looking at taking in more than the
value they would have gotten in cash. Keep in mind that some artists aren't
hurting for the immediate cash. They see the value of taking the disks and
making even more money.
In my post, I thought I mentioned that any artist who thought they received
a raw deal were free to contact Kevin. He doesn't hide. He has a website
with his address and he goes to nearly all Furry cons.
Or is this another one of those "I heard someone say that they heard
somewhere...?"
magnwa <mag...@magnwa.roarmail.net> wrote in message
news:slrn9auvsc...@magnwa.roarmail.net...
chance wolf
"Dr. Cat" <c...@sullivan.realtime.net> wrote in message
news:3ab1c...@feed1.realtime.net...
(some all-too-true observations on the nature of the civil legal
establishment, snipped mercilessly)
> I think the vast majority of problems, disputes and disagreements in
> this country get dealt with without resorting to lawyers and courts.
> And given the desperately small amounts of liability or damages that
> are involved in most problems, and the high cost of going the formal
> route, this is a Good Thing. There might be a few friendly lawyers
> that'd write a free Cease and Desist letter for a pal, but otherwise
> it'd probably cost more than it's worth for one billable hour of the
> lawyer's time. And about the only advantages to having a lawyer do
> it instead of drafting your own cease and desist letter is A) it
> might sound more formal and scary, unless you're good at digging up
> the right kind of language from elsewhere and substituting the right
> names in, and B) having it come from a lawyer sounds more scary to
> most people. Of course if it's someone who's not scared off by such
> a thing just because it came from a lawyer, or who's just generally
> willing to ignore cease and desist letters and keep going, there's
> no real advantage there.
Without getting into details, a..er...shall we say 'competitor'..started
bad-mouthing certain companies on local movie sets, and was asked repeatedly
by those concerned to come by a clue or two or simply cease and desist
altogether. Several times. Unfortunately, it then morphed into a 'saving
face' type-battle where both sides were at risk of being labelled liars,
slanderers or worse - and a simple lawyers' letter to the effect of 'Cease
and Desist' was all that was required to put the fear of the endlessly
expensive litigious quagmire in the heads of those for whom it would do the
most good, and things settled back to the odd acrimonious insult hurled
more-or-less privately. Money well spent, says I, but obviously not a
solution tailored to all circumstances, all budgets.
chance (funny how it's basically impossible to slag someone else without
tainting yourself in the process, huh? Unless it's Brian Mulroney. Then
all bets are off.)
magnwa
>Or is this another one of those "I heard someone say that they heard
>somewhere...?"
No.. I know extreme specifics.. but I'd much rather not drag the
artist into this fight, because the artist (note, Magnwa doesn't use
gender specific pronouns! HAH!) has already written this off as
a "stupid mistake" on their behalf. I was simply curious because
this specific artist was not the first I heard this story from (and
not the first with a stack of CDs they had to sell). I was curious
what this and other artists' options were. Thank you for making
them clearer, I'm certain that if artists know they can get money
for those CDs from Kevin , they will. :)
Magnwa
Dr. Cat
: If you had a contract with Kevin Duane, and he allegedly renegged on it,
: then you should have dealt with that in the court system. By taking the
: issue public, you have created the opportunity for Kevin Duane to file
: suit against you, on several points.
: (I'm not saying that he would win any of those suits, just that there
: are grounds for filing them.)
While this is true, I don't think it's particularly relevant. If there
was a snowball's chance in hell that either of these two fellows were
ever going to sue each other, then maybe it would be.
In my experience, most potential lawsuit situations fall into two
situations.
1) One or both of the parties has Tons Of Money (tm), in which case you
might get an actual lawsuit going.
2) Both parties are Poor Slobs Like Us (tm), a category that includes
the middle class generally, anybody that's not a big company or a stinking
rich individual. In this case you rarely see a lawsuit.
You could divide category 2 into three main sub-categories.
2a) Two non-rich people (or tiny companies with not much money) who
realize there's no point suing over $37 and paying lawyers thousands
of dollars in fees to do it, so the possibility never even comes up.
They attempt to deal with their differences on their own, without
resorting to the courts, and either succeed or fail at settling them,
and leave it at that.
2b) Two non-rich people, one of whom loudly and repeatedly threatens
that they're going to sue the other one in messages posted on Usenet.
You can generally interpret a Usenet post saying "I am going to sue you"
as meaning "I am NOT going to sue you, I have neither the balls nor the
money to do so, and I live in my parent's basment." People in category
2b end up facing each other in court about as often as people in group
2a, which is to say never.
2c) The one-in-a-million guy that just doesn't know when to quit. He will
generally end up in a real courtroom for five minutes, hearing an
exasperated judge throwing the case out and telling him "Don't waste my
time this way ever again", or else he ends up on People's Court providing
more entertainment for those of us with Nothing Better To Do (tm).
: The correct course of action, instead of airing your feelings openly on
: the net (and opening yourself up to liability), would have been to
: contact an attorney first and let them deal with it. They probably
: would have written a short letter to Kevin Duane with the same outcome
: as result #1 above, but costing you a LOT less.
I think the vast majority of problems, disputes and disagreements in
this country get dealt with without resorting to lawyers and courts.
And given the desperately small amounts of liability or damages that
are involved in most problems, and the high cost of going the formal
route, this is a Good Thing. There might be a few friendly lawyers
that'd write a free Cease and Desist letter for a pal, but otherwise
it'd probably cost more than it's worth for one billable hour of the
lawyer's time. And about the only advantages to having a lawyer do
it instead of drafting your own cease and desist letter is A) it
might sound more formal and scary, unless you're good at digging up
the right kind of language from elsewhere and substituting the right
names in, and B) having it come from a lawyer sounds more scary to
most people. Of course if it's someone who's not scared off by such
a thing just because it came from a lawyer, or who's just generally
willing to ignore cease and desist letters and keep going, there's
no real advantage there.
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
*-------------------------------------------** http://www.furcadia.com
Furcadia - a graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
(Disclaimer: While the scarier approaches to cease and desist letters are
probably more often effective, human nature being what it is... People
are also very varied, and there's surely some folks out there that would
stop if asked sweetly and politely, but if asked in a rude or scary way
they'd get all stubborn and angry and determined never to stop ever.
Judge your approach based on who you're dealing with and what you know
about 'em. And hey if you're rich, or you really did suffer more than
$117 in damages, go pay a lawyer to deal with the problem.)
Felyne32k
says...
> AJL wrote:
> > Very sloppy.... If you take Kevin to court, I can see it going one of
> > three ways:
>
> Ok, four ways... I can't count, ok?
>
"No, wait, our TWO weapons are Fear, Surprise, and Ruthless efficiency!
Ahem. Our THREE weapons are..."
-The Spanish Inquisiton
--
-Felyne32k, supposed "English Major"
DISCLAIMER: The poster is known to experience judgement
lapses brought by sleep deprivation. Take note of posting
time: anything beyond 11:30 PM, Pacific Standard Time is
likely to be influenced by this condition.