Ping: Ken Owen
Jim Phelps
I don't know if this is in your ballpark or not, and the previous post
about processing one's own film in C-41 is sparking my question. What is
the reason that Jobo USA is not importing the Tetenal PhotoTabs for C-41?
Further, why are you not importing the RA-4 PhotoPearls?
I live in Germany, and use the PhotoTabs for all my C-41. Here a list of
advantages that maybe might spark a thread here and prompt Jobo to try
marketing this product:
1. Fresh Chemistry for every session.
2. Long storage life of the 'concentrates'.
3. The C-41 can process up to 24 135/36 (or equiv) with processing time
adjustment (it's in the directions and not the product literature on the Web
for those who may look).
4. One-shot processing offers a huge level of convenience and consistency.
5. Less storage requirements (the size of the kit for 12 to 24 films is
about 2X6X6) for both the concentrates and the working solutions.
6. Less darkroom health risks as these chemicals can't spill or do they
give off a dust.
7. They dissolve real easy (I throw the Tabs in the water and place them in
my processor, by the time the solution reaches 100 degrees, the Tabs are
dissolved).
8. The results are as good, if not better that some of the all liquid kits
I've tried. Grain in the negs is good, contrast and colors are dead on, and
sharpness and acutance are better than I saw with Flexicolor.
9. This is a big one for those who buy their supplies through the mail
order houses: No hazardous shipping restrictions (or there shouldn't be,
but then again, I don't work for UPS).
Maybe if this thread grows long enough and enough interest is generated,
the US market may see these products. Ken, if you haven't seen or tried
them, I'll even send you a kit of each to try.
Sorry to put you on the spot like this, but it may be a good thing, and I
only want 1% of the profits for the idea :~)
Jim
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Frank Pittel
Jim Phelps <Jim.P...@mi.com> wrote:
: Ken,
: Jim
:
--
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
f...@deepthought.com
Chad Bender
> about processing one's own film in C-41 is sparking my question. What is
> the reason that Jobo USA is not importing the Tetenal PhotoTabs for C-41?
> Further, why are you not importing the RA-4 PhotoPearls?
Does something similar exist for E6? If so, where can I get it. Now that
Jobo has discontinued the 500ml E6 3bath kit, I'm facing the prospect of
having to use the 1l kits to process a very small amount of film. I doubt
I'll be able to use even half of the capability of the 1l kits before they
go bad.
The prospect of single shot useage sounds great!
Chad
--
#############################
Chad Bender
Dept of Physics and Astronomy
SUNY Stony Brook
cbe...@mail.astro.sunysb.edu
click76112
remember something like that.
lee\c
"Frank Pittel" <f...@wizard.deepthought.com> wrote in message
news:dVednQiZoJo...@giganews.com...
Jim Phelps
"Chad Bender" <cbe...@mail.astro.sunysb.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.33.030211...@hapuna.ess.sunysb.edu...
> > I don't know if this is in your ballpark or not, and the previous
post
> > about processing one's own film in C-41 is sparking my question. What
is
> > the reason that Jobo USA is not importing the Tetenal PhotoTabs for
C-41?
> > Further, why are you not importing the RA-4 PhotoPearls?
>
> Does something similar exist for E6? If so, where can I get it. Now that
> Jobo has discontinued the 500ml E6 3bath kit, I'm facing the prospect of
> having to use the 1l kits to process a very small amount of film. I doubt
> I'll be able to use even half of the capability of the 1l kits before they
> go bad.
>
> The prospect of single shot useage sounds great!
>
> Chad
>
Sadly, nothing yet. I'm also in the same boat with the E-6 kits. But
with them being all liquid, you can mix smaller amounts from the stock
solutions. If you protect the remaining stock solutions (Protectan,
marbles, whatever), they will last much longer.
Jim Phelps
here. I kept hinting to him about them, but now, I've come out and asked
the question directly. Someone else said they didn't take off as expected
in Europe. I think they didn't factor in the overall decline in wet
darkroom processing (my favorite German photo store, and the only one in 40
miles that had darkroom supplies closed last October). However, if the
local German photo club is any 'pulse of the hobby', it's still very much
alive and well here.
Me thinks, if Tetenal wants to recover R&D and start-up costs, they may just
be able to do it in the USA. I'll be returning there shortly, and would
very much like to continue to use these products. I'm spoiled I guess.
Something about not having to worry about those stock solution or even the
working solutions deteriorating while I sleep make them worthwhile:~)
"click76112" <click...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:v4ice01...@corp.supernews.com...
Struan Gray
> Someone else said they didn't take off as expected
> in Europe.
They looked ideal to me until I saw the price: about double the cost
per film of the most expensively packaged liquid concentrates. Even at
Swedish prices, posting film to a remote pro lab in individual Jiffy
bags works out cheaper. I would have to be excessively paranoid or live
somewhere very, very remote, to make the tabs worth trying. A shame.
Struan
KHOwen
>From: "Jim Phelps" Jim.P...@MI.com
>Date: 2/11/03 3:02 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <3e48ae14$1...@news5.uncensored-news.com>
showed them to us and promised they would be available. That was also the last
time they promised them to us.
Please remember that JOBO is a distributor and not a manufacturer, so we don't
have the final say in many cases. This is one of those cases.
You see, the US darkroom market is shrinking at an incredible rate. Darkroom
sales today are less than 10% of what they were in 1990, and most of that has
happened in the last 5 years.
Business decisions have to be made both by manufacturers and by distributors
(and dealers too) based on financial considerations, and with as little
emotional factor as possible. By that I mean that just because I remember how
wonderful a particular product was 20 years ago, if it's not selling in
sufficient quantity today, I can no longer justify its production at anything
resembling a reasonable cost.
All that goes to say, that Tetenal and JOBO recently had to go through a
serious process of evaluating how many of each chemical or kit must be
manufactured at one time, in order to keep the costs at a marketable level.
Then we also had to evaluate how much chemistry we were selling in the past and
project the shrinking marketplace into the future. With that done, we had to
eliminate many different kits. In C-41we eliminated the Mono C-41 1 liter, and
the 2.5 liter Rapid C-41 kits. In E-6 we eliminated the 500 ml 3-bath (partly
due to an excessive number of leaking foil pouches) and the 15 liter 6-bath
E-6. The 2.5 liter Mono-R kit for prints from slides was among the first to
go. Even the Eukobrom BW print developer had to go.
In all of the above cases, we had to buy large quantities of stock to keep the
prices down, but we could not anticipate selling the entire quantity before it
would have expired of old age due to slumping sales.
I'm sorry folks, but too many of you have abandoned the traditional darkroom
for the digital darkroom, and so the chemical assortment had to be reduced.
Getting back to the tablets; the pricing was excessive, costing more than twice
as much as the standard C-41 kits. Basically you could use the 1 liter Press
Kit from JOBO, process three rolls and throw away the rest, and it would have
been cheaper than the tablets. On top of that, due to the separate
packaging/labeling requirements for the USA, Tetenal could not justify offering
it to us for the US market.
I hope this explains our position to you.
Perhaps, now that Beseler has abandoned chemicals altogether, and Kodak has
fewer kits in amateur size, we might gain enough market share to bring back
some of those previously discontinued kits. However, with the plummeting trend
of darkroom chemical sales, I am not very hopeful for their return.
Rest assured, we continue to enjoy selling darkroom products. That has been
the backbone of JOBO sales in Germany for 75 years, and here in the US for over
20 years. We just have to add other products that make up for the lack of
popularity in darkroom, to our overall market mix.
As a result we are the USA distributor for the following non-darkroom products:
Crumpler Bags (www.crumplerusa.com)
Nixvue Digital Album
Nixvue Vista
ImageTank (www.jobodigital.com)
PermaJet Fine Art inkjet papers (www.permajetusa.com).
Please feel free to check them out as we continue to join you in image making,
both traditionally and digitally.
Ken -- Jobo USA
sa...@jobo-usa.com
Jobo web site: http://www.jobo-usa.com
Jim Phelps
I cannot comment on the costs in Sweden, however, here in Germany a kit
cost about Euro 25. As you can process 24 films (135/36 or 120) per kit,
that's only slightly more than one Euro per film (for our U.S. readers 1
Euro = about $1.07).
Check out Foto Brenner at www.alles-foto.de for pricing. They also ship to
all EU lands, so you can mail order from them as well.
Jim
"Struan Gray" <strua...@sljus.lu.se> wrote in message
news:b2g6hg$gdc$1...@news.lth.se...
______________________________________________________________________
Struan Gray
> I cannot comment on the costs in Sweden, however, here in Germany a kit
> cost about Euro 25. As you can process 24 films (135/36 or 120) per kit,
> that's only slightly more than one Euro per film (for our U.S. readers 1
> Euro = about $1.07).
Thanks Jim. Swedish photo prices are often significantly higher
than German ones, particularly for darkroom stuff. It's a small market
with a few distributors (and, to be fair, a higher rate of
VAT/MOMS/MwSt). I'm currently using a UK mail order lab for 120 and 35
mm, but for my intermittant use of 4x5 and larger sheet films reasonably
priced tabs would provide a nice solution (ho ho).
Struan
Roman J. Rohleder
<strua...@sljus.lu.se> :
>> I cannot comment on the costs in Sweden, however, here in Germany a kit
>> cost about Euro 25. As you can process 24 films (135/36 or 120) per kit,
>> that's only slightly more than one Euro per film (for our U.S. readers 1
>> Euro = about $1.07).
>
> Thanks Jim. Swedish photo prices are often significantly higher
>than German ones, particularly for darkroom stuff.
I guess, one reason is the stronger competition and the existance of
several stronger local brands - Agfa, Tetenal... well, and Calbe. ;-)
It's a small market
>with a few distributors (and, to be fair, a higher rate of
>VAT/MOMS/MwSt).
The swedish VAT isn´t billed (and the german Mehrwertsteuer isn´t
refunded) if you buy in Germany from anywhere in the EU, right? You
pay the VAT of the county your order is placed too.. ?`
Some other sources, too keep it fair. ;-)
If have dealt with the afforementioned Foto Brenner, but I don´t do at
the moment - I know where to get the stuff cheaper, but the catalogue
is quite a nice thing.
If you want to order more cost-effective, have a look at
www.fotoimpex.de (Berlin, specialised in smaller brands, like Calbe,
Foma, Forte, (Everything tagges "Classic" there is actually Forte)
Efke...). I have their current catalogue on my harddisk (download
it!), the discussed kit costs 23EUR/12 films.
www.phototec.de (Hatten. Peter Loeffler has a nice catalogue, he is
friendly, fast, the special offers are usually very good. Vast stock
of materials). Nice website, two good forums, supports (or is
identical to) www.sw-magazin.de. Special hint for everyone:
Development time calculator. You specify Film, Developer, temperature,
agitation, contrast, and it gives you a development time which usually
is on the spot -depending on my lacking experience ;-).
www.fotolaborgeraete ("Lumiere". Same stuff as Fotoimpex, some
specials like Agfa Copex, Polypan F, slightly different prices, but
somehow a connection with Fotoimpex can´t be denied).
I used to order my films at www.filmart.de - they used to be really
cheap and very reliable. They had a special distribution system with
partners throughout Germany - usually labs who placed your orders and
gave you the stuff on location. This has changed, I suspect the
company had some problems and the ambitions got a bit muted.
Their house brand for chemicals used to be "Champion", cheap but only
available at large batches, around 5l/product..
I have a strong feeling that the analogue situation isn´t this bad
anymore - look how many specialised shops developed, what wonderful
and sophisticated products appeard in the last few years..
>Struan
Gruss, Roman
Jim Phelps
[Big Snip]
Ken,
As always, thanks so much for your dedication and support to us, the
users of your products. However, I really have to put you on the spot again
for two reasons.
First, you said the tabs for C-41 were not offered due to the cost
compared to the other products available. I have to disagree. With a cost
here in Europe of about $25.00 for a kit to do 24 rolls, it is comparable to
other kits in a cost versus quantity match-up. However, what will save me
money in the long run is if I wish to process 4 rolls of film, that's all
the chemicals I mix. I may not have another need to process C-41 for 10
weeks. That partially used chemistry is questionable, so I will dump the
rest of a 1 liter kit and need to mix a second. My costs have just doubled!
Not with the Tabs.
Second, you said they would need to be repackaged. I don't know why as
they are already in multiple language packaging here in Europe and English
is one of them. But I will guess, and likely be correct, by saying it has
something to do with ICC rules and regs, and the complications of liability
laws. So, I'll go with you on this one.
While I understand the business side of the problem, the point I was
trying to make is maybe there is a market in the USA. After all, the waters
haven't been tested. There are a great many advantages to these products
that may be helpful for Tetenal and Jobo USA. I was trying with my original
posts to generate an interest in them as a show that may make it easier. I
realize you are only the distributor, but the distributor to a good size
market, regardless of the downsizing going on.
Thanks for your dedication to your users.
Chad Bender
>
> [Big Snip]
>
>
> First, you said the tabs for C-41 were not offered due to the cost
> compared to the other products available. I have to disagree. With a cost
> here in Europe of about $25.00 for a kit to do 24 rolls, it is comparable to
> other kits in a cost versus quantity match-up. However, what will save me
> money in the long run is if I wish to process 4 rolls of film, that's all
> the chemicals I mix. I may not have another need to process C-41 for 10
> weeks. That partially used chemistry is questionable, so I will dump the
> rest of a 1 liter kit and need to mix a second. My costs have just doubled!
> Not with the Tabs.
>
Jim--
Can you point me to a European distributer who sells these and can ship
internationally? Preferably someone with an online store. I'm sure
shipping would not be cheap. But if the cost for the kit is what you
state above, then by not wasting unused chemicals I'd probably still come
out ahead even with expensive shipping.
Thanks
Roman J. Rohleder
:
> First, you said the tabs for C-41 were not offered due to the cost
>compared to the other products available. I have to disagree. With a cost
>here in Europe of about $25.00 for a kit to do 24 rolls, it is comparable to
>other kits in a cost versus quantity match-up.
Jim, where do you get a kit for 24rolls at this price? I know only the
sources I posted last week (for the next poster: most ship worldwide,
check the links I provided at 21/02/2003), these sell a kit for 12
roll at 23 Euro.
>Jim
Gruss, Roman
Jim Phelps
"Roman J. Rohleder" <rjr_g...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:hhkk5vodjml5t1hsg...@4ax.com...
Roman, The kit's list only for 12 roll, but the instructions give you a
chart for doing 24 rolls at extended times. For example, say you mix
chemistry for 2 rolls. Normal time for the developer is 3:15 (if I recall
correctly). However, you can process 4 rolls in the same amount of
chemistry, but your developer time is now 3:45. You can do the same for
other multiples, up to 24 rolls.
Jim Phelps
Chad,
You can try www.alles-foto.de The site is in German, but not to
difficult. I tried to give you a direct link, but they don't have their
page set up for this. Everything comes up as default.htm. When you hit the
home page, click in the middle of the banner, next choose FOTOCHEMIKALIEN
(bottom middle) and then COLORFILM-PROZESSE C-4. Third item down.
Note that the information says it's for 12 films. The instructions give
you info on time extensions to process at double the capacity. I've done
it, and the results are identical.
If you have any difficulty, I'll contact you off-NG and we can work
something out. I have an APO address (Military) and can send via Uncle
Sam's Snail Mail.
Nice thing is the tabs come packaged in a plastic pill like container
about 3 inches tall and a bit more than an inch in diameter. The top is
filled with desiccant, so they have other uses in the darkroom as well. I
store cleaning materials for negs and pics. Keeps everything dry.
Roman J. Rohleder
:
>Roman, The kit's list only for 12 roll, but the instructions give you a
>chart for doing 24 rolls at extended times. For example, say you mix
>chemistry for 2 rolls. Normal time for the developer is 3:15 (if I recall
>correctly). However, you can process 4 rolls in the same amount of
>chemistry, but your developer time is now 3:45. You can do the same for
>other multiples, up to 24 rolls.
Excellent. ;->
I recently bought a cheap, old CPP (31 Euro) and now I am thinking
about processing E6 and C41 besides my normal BW stuff. I recently
waited 5 weeks to get two rolls of 120 back - on a time-critical job
for my studies!
Is this scheme applicable to other C41 kits? I doubt it makes sense
for E6, color shifts would be too bad.
Gruss, Roman
Jim Phelps
Roman,
Not to my knowledge, but they may. I used the C-41 1 liter kit some time
ago, but since I've been using the TABs, I won't go back!
BTW, What part of Germany are you in. I'm in the RP/Saarland area.
Jim
Roman J. Rohleder
:
Hallo Jim,
> Not to my knowledge, but they may. I used the C-41 1 liter kit some time
>ago, but since I've been using the TABs, I won't go back!
OK, I´ll read the manuals provided by Tetenal. :->
> BTW, What part of Germany are you in. I'm in the RP/Saarland area.
Me too. I live/am based at the Mosel, near Cochem and Koblenz, but I
study at Kaiserslautern.
>Jim
Gruss, Roman