Furry Fans Working in Animation and Comics
SilverJain
will NEVER get work in your whole entire life. Yes, it has happened to some
people, but I'm pretty much 100% sure that those people probably didn't comport
themselves in a professional manner, and that's why they didn't get the jobs.
(Or in some cases, maybe just weren't what the studios were looking for, and
sought an excuse for why they didn't get hired. A persecution complex makes for
great rumors.) Instead of harping on their situations, I'm gonna name the
people that I know FOR A FACT either worked or have worked in animation and/or
comics.
1. Cindy Crowell. She loves furry stuff, I've been to her office, and she's got
furry stuff all over the place. Cindy worked as an animator for Star Toons in
Chicago, on the Animaniacs, and some other stuff I can't remember, and recently
worked at Heart of Texas on Space Jam, Quest for Camelot and a bunch of other
stuff. She has furry/rockabilly tattoos and also plays in a rockabilly band. I
don't see that liking and drawing furry stuff has hurt her career any. She also
works on Filthy Animals for us.
2. Dave Kuhn. He's a lot quieter now, but Dave was an active fan. And now--
ta-daa-- he works for Disney as a key animator! How can this BE?! (That's
sarcasm there... sorry) Weirder yet, Dave works for Disney and actually owns
fursuits.
3. John Nunnemacher. John worked in furry comics for a good long while there
and was in fanzines. And last I heard, he was working for Disney also! Under
Dave Kuhn! Guess that fandom connection really stifles stuff... ^_-
4. "Stan Jinx". (Not his real name, but he doesn't want his son to eventually
know about his adult comic work.) Also an animator at Heart of Texas, he writes
and draws Filthy Animals. And does character designs for other people. And now
he works at a company in Dallas that designs children's meal toys for fast food
places. Decent work if you can get it! He also used to work for DC Comics. And
all that time he liked furry stuff.
5. Shon Howell. Now you're probably going- huh?! Shon? But even though Shon has
always drawn naked furry babes, he's also done a lot of work in unusual places-
he worked for the Japanese animation company Gainax, and also did toy design
work for Marvel/ToyBiz. Currently, Shon's planning to do some work for a local
museum, in sculpting dioramas (as an assistant to the main diorama guy- who
knows about Shon's furry stuff!)
6. Stephanie Gladden. She does the great Hopster's Tracks comic from Bongo. And
worked on a ton of other Bongo and Dark Horse comics. And I'm pretty sure she's
done some animation work. According to her pal, Joe Rosales, she's always liked
funny animal stuff, which is why they are in her comic. She's also the only
person to have ever gotten funny animal characters into Action Girl from Slave
Labor.
7. Sondra Roy. She's on Yerf, her art is awesome-- AND she worked on those
super-cute Old Navy commercials with John K. And worked on the Simpsons. Those
are some nice creadits for someone who likes furry stuff.
8. Mike Kazaleh. Likes furry stuff, did furry comics and fanzine work and still
works in animation. Recently spotted his name in the credits of Lionhearts and
Monster Farm.
9. Ken Mitchroney. In pretty much the same boat as Kazaleh. Still getting work.
10. Marc Schirmeister. Another long-time furry fan, he started Rowrbrazzle- and
still works for an animation studio (which I can't remember the name of-
D'OH!). He also worked on Monster Farm for Saban.
11. Robert Guthrie. Draws furry stuff of a saucy nature. But he also works for
Warner Brothers. Hey, a job's a job!
12. "Dutch". He does work for Genus and Furrlough and also worked at Heart of
Texas. In fact, people at Heart of Texas advised him to send his comic art to
us. Amazing!
13. Erica Missey. She was in Wild Life wa-a-a-y back when. But she used those
pages in her portfolio when she applied at Heart of Texas- and she worked there
for a while in the animation department.
14. Joe Rosales. Gets much work outside of furry fandom for local businesses
(usually designing and drawing furry mascot characters)- and was also given
Heidi McDonald's seal of approval. For those of you who don't know, Heidi
McDonald is the editor of Disney Adventures magazine which has a huge
circulation. Joe tried out for it, using *gasp* furry characters, and Heidi
didn't spit on him or anything. She likes his stuff and actually gets issues of
Furrlough or Hunca Munca (my fanzine) that Joe is in. While we still don't know
if Joe will be working for Disney Adventures in the future, I thought this
would be good to bring up, to show that furry artists are not universally
reviled.
15. Fred Perry. Not exactly a furry artist, but furry enough for government
work. Fred has a successful comic- so successful there are guys at Image who
scan Gold Digger to get "inspiration". GD was successful enough to have an
action figure made- of the furry character no less!
16. Stan Sakai. Stan has been in comics for years, and is one of the nicest
guys you could hope to meet. Usagi Yojimbo is critically acclaimed and popular,
and has many dedicated fans. Stan has actually won two Eisner Awards (one for
Talent Deserving of Wider Recognition). Not bad for a guy who just likes to
draw bunnies.
17. Carl Gafford. Carl is an active fan also. But he's also worked in comics
since before I was born (literally! I have some of the comics with his name in
them to prove it!) at DC, Topps, and many more companies I can't even remember.
18. Dark One. He does the book Animal Mystic for Sirius Comics. And he
definitely likes furry characters, since he keeps sticking them into his books.
(Plus he told me so when he came by the table to get issues of Furrlough and
Genus.) Hasn't hurt his sales any, or his popularity with more mainstream comic
fans.
19. Terrie Smith. Terrie's a big name in fandom. But she has also done
animation work, and I know she sells a lot of fantasy art that isn't furry.
She's able to make a living off of art- not bad!
20. Linda Medley. While I don't think she's an actual fan, Castle Waiting has
many furry characters, and she even got a Xeric Grant to do the book. She won
Eisner Awards this year, and her book has furry characters in it. Amazing!
21. Carla Speed McNeil. She does furry stuff AND mature furry stuff, and won
the Friends of Lulu New Talent Award for women in comics for Finder. Which has
furry characters in it. And it still gets rave reviews.
22. Finally, me and Pat. We're treated pretty well in the industry, even though
everyone knows we publish furry books. We get a little light ribbing from
friends occasionally, but that's it. People are pretty much impressed at books
which have issue numbers in the 30's and 70's respectively. And even though Pat
drew Mighty Tiny: Mouse Marines and publishes Furrlough and Genus, he still
gets work from Dark Horse Comics, Oni Press, Image Comics, and various other
companies. He doesn't go to them- they come to him. Despite this "furry thing".
I know people all through the industry at large and small companies, and no one
spits on me or insults me or gives me heaping piles of crud. I've gotten
positive comments about that furry book I write (Tales of the Fehnnik) from
Linda Medley, Mark Crilley, Jaime & Gilbert Hernandez, Andi Watson (who drew
his first ever furry pinup for the first issue), Stan Sakai, Elizabeth Watasin,
Terry LaBan, Dave Stevens, Adam Warren and Somtow Sucharitkul. I think in the
entire comic industry there are maybe four or five sour apples who have decided
not to talk to Pat or I because we publish furry stuff, and that's about it. No
one else really seems to care- as long as we can make a living at comics, they
seem to think we have just as much right to be there as they do.
That's more than enough for now. I'm sure I've left people off the list. But
this was what I knew for sure. I also didn't even want to go into the gaming
industry where I know MANY furry people work. This post would have been HUGE.
(not that it isn't now...)
Final point- your career is what you make it. Behaving in a professional manner
and basically giving the companies what they're looking for are usually the
best ways to get you hired. Your personal interests are your own business.
--Elin, co-owner, publisher and editor, Radio Comix
"Remember, Zip, evil spelled backwards is live, and we all want to do that!"
-Mok, "Rock'n'Rule"
SilverJain
who's done work for Shanda, Paul Castiglia (an editor there) who's done work
for Wild Life, and Harvey "Harvo" Mercadoocasio, who works on the Sonic comics
and who is doing a new book for us also. Not to mention Chris Allan (also
working on Sonic books) who did work in Furrlough. Hasn't hurt any of their
careers any!
--Elin, in need of a mental memory upgrade.
Daphne Lage
I have *always* found the stories of "If they find out you're furry, you'll
never get work" suspect and your listing has only reinforced that fact.
Animation studios (or any other job in general) DON'T CARE if you're a furry
or not. As long as you are offering them what they need, you could have been
working at Hustler for all they know.
I've never had a problem getting work (in comics and advertising mostly) and
I don't even try to hide my "furry side" either. In fact, most of my
employers found my furry work to be a plus! The rest just didn't think about
it. All they cared about was whether I could do the job they needed.
Look at it like this - if Steve Martin (one of the most "infamous" furries
around) can get work at Warner Brothers, then *anyone* can - well provided
you've got the talent that the studios want.
Still thinking that Furry Fandom is *waaaaaay* to paranoid and full of
itself for its own good...
--Daphne Lage
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SilverJain wrote in message <19981205130445...@ng16.aol.com>...
>D'OH! As soon as I posted, I realized I forgot the Archie guys- Dan
DeCarlo,
>who's done work for Shanda, Paul Castiglia (an editor there) who's done
work
>for Wild Life, and Harvey "Harvo" Mercadoocasio, who works on the Sonic
comics
>and who is doing a new book for us also. Not to mention Chris Allan (also
>working on Sonic books) who did work in Furrlough. Hasn't hurt any of their
>careers any!
>
>--Elin, in need of a mental memory upgrade.
>
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
any more. For a lot of them, "I'm too busy" also means that they've put the
fandom behind them.
You don't see most of them at Cons either.
--
The greatest tragedy is that the same species that achieved space flight,
a cure for polio, and the transistor, is also featured nightly on COPS.
-- Richard Chandler
Spammer Warning: Washington State Law now provides civil penalties for UCE.
SilverJain
feel like drawing after an 8 hour day of drawing. Animators can work grueling
schedules, working on a comic takes hours of labor (sometimes on top of working
for the day job) and some people work for companies that have *very* binding
contracts. Heck, *I* barely have time to breathe much less work on my own
fanzine. It's not for a lack of wanting to, it's really because people ARE "too
busy". Or maybe they just don't have time to do work for free anymore- if they
barely have time to get their paying work done on deadline, free stuff just has
to take a much lower priority.
Now, as for seeing people at conventions- who have I seen at conventions
lately? At ConFurence: Dave Kuhn, Carla Speed McNeil, Harvo Mercadoocasio,
Terrie Smith, Stan Sakai, Marc Schirmeister and more I'm probably forgetting.
At San Diego Comic Con- almost everyone on the list. Almost. Most of them I saw
when they came by my table, which was surrounded by furry fans and covered with
furry comics. Some of them just go to anime conventions, or comics conventions.
But I've seen almost everybody on that list at some point last year.
Conventions take a BIG chunk of time out of your schedule and if you have a
book to do, or an animation deadline, sometimes you just can't spare the time.
(Cindy has told me hilarious stories about animators getting so tired they
literally are almost dozing as they draw- which has lead to interesting things
ending up on the paper. Lea Hernandez, who has occasionally done furry stuff,
also got so tired while staying up late to work on her book for Image that she
actually drew breasts on one of the male characters. But I digress...)
Sometimes when people say they don't have time, they really mean they don't
have time. For Pete's sake, if they can make a living doing what they love
(art) which we all get to look at and enjoy when it's finished, I think we
should be happy, rather than complaining that they don't have time to be in
fanzines anymore.
--Elin
M. Mitchell Marmel
On 5 Dec 1998, SilverJain wrote:
> D'OH! As soon as I posted, I realized I forgot the Archie guys- Dan DeCarlo,
> who's done work for Shanda,
And a Tali Hartoh-Mason pinup.
> Paul Castiglia (an editor there) who's done work
> for Wild Life,
"The Sophistikats". One of my all time faves. Paul's currently working
on another funny-animal project, details classified at the moment.
-MMM-
Daphne Lage
<981205130...@mauser.at.kendra.com>...
>I notice that a lot of these folks don't do much work for Fanzines or the
like
>any more. For a lot of them, "I'm too busy" also means that they've put
the
>fandom behind them.
No offense but obviously you've never held own an art job.
"I'm too busy" means just *that*. It's not code for "You all suck I'm
leaving the fandom" - it means that there's so much work to do, I don't have
time for fannish activities. These people got jobs that they've trained
their entire lives for. In no way do they *owe* the fandom anything just
because they draw furries. If they don't have time to do contribute to
fanzines or put out portfolios then that's it. If they have the time to do
that, more power to them. Don't get all pissy just because some artists have
no choice but to put their careers before the fandom.
This is what I mean when I say that Furry takes itself way to seriously - it
always thinks its a target. And always thinks it should be central to
everything.
Don't take it so personally! This cigar is really just a cigar.
And yes - I *really am* busy.
Sorry for being a bit cranky but I'm getting tired of listening to all of
the furry conspiracy therories.
There's no one out to get you - get over it.
Glen Wooten
>
> 19. Terrie Smith. Terrie's a big name in fandom. But she has also done
> animation work, and I know she sells a lot of fantasy art that isn't furry.
> She's able to make a living off of art- not bad!
(I tried to send this out earlier, but it seems to have dropped in the
bit-bucket...)
The fact that Terrie draws furries has never been a roadblock to her
getting assignments. She got a job at AFT as a lead animator with a
portfolio that included furries, centaurs, elves, as well as "realistic"
animals. The flipbook she did as an assignment to show she knew animation
techniques was very furry - and it became the new standard for applicants
to meet.
While there have been a very few isolated cases of artists NOT getting
jobs because the interviewer saw furries (or elves, or centaurs, or...),
for the most part, the problem is that the applicant only showed ONE type
of thing they did. When you apply for an art job, they don't want you
because you are the best Care-Bear artist there is, or that no one can
draw mermaids better than you - they want to see that you have a
wide-spectrum talent, on that will work with the projects they have in
mind, and one that will work with the other artists they already have. If
you have an extremely unique style (no matter how good it might be), if it
won't work with what they already have, you probably won't get the job.
It's not up to them to take what you have as the best thing since sliced
bread - it's up to you to have what THEY need. If you don't get a job,
you should ask the person making the decisions why you didn't get it. And
you want them to be brutally honest - wanting them to sooth your ego won't
help you in the slightest.
If they say you need to work on certain aspects of your style, listen to
them - they've been doing something that works for a while. If they tell
you what you've got is good, but not what they need - then it's no one's
fault, it's a case of the job not being right for you. If they say that
it appears that all you are good at is a particular type or style - then
broaden your horizons, put other things in your portfolio.
If they say that you didn't get the job because you like furries (or
elves, or centaurs, or...), then the interviewer probably dealt with
someone previously who was a VERY poor loser, and tried to retaliate for
not getting the job (there have been more than a few people on this very
board who have called for retaliatory action against people who didn't
hire them - VERY bad form.) Conspiracies are very popular, but very seldom
real - while rude people are extremely rampant, and rude people often
leave lasting impressions that affect total strangers. If it's stated
this is the reason you didn't get the job - don't screw it up for someone
else down the line by throwing a fit like someone did before you.
There are plenty of "furry" people in art jobs - they just dealt
level-headedly with prospective employers, and found out what the employer
wanted. And very few got the job of their dreams on the first try - it
doesn't work for most any job field, it's no different in the art field...
--
Glen Wooten
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| primary: jag...@netcom.com | secondary: glen....@fanciful.org |
_____________________________________________________________________
| Terrie's web page: http://users.aol.com/amperprodx/littlepaw.html |
_____________________________________________________________________
Shonmania
editing the books @ AP. Let's hear from this vast legion of oppressed artists
who've lost out on work due to fan affiliations! C'mon, this should be easy
enough to document, RIGHT?
This fandom seems to thrive on these sorts low key persecusion fantasies,
which come in handy for those loudmouth wanna-bes in the group who're" working
on stuff" for years with nothing to show for it. The Pro comics field has
absolutely nothing in common with the fandom; the publishers & distributors
don't want to be your friends; they don't care about your nature as a person or
what you do in your off hours. All they're concerned with is whether your
brilliant efforts will sell thousands of books to readers (notice I didn't say
FANS). If this discrimination is such a BIG problem, then let's document it &
see if legal action is in order!
So, who'll go first?
Shon Howell
Farlo
>When you apply for an art job, they don't want you
>because you are the best Care-Bear artist there is, or that no one can
>draw mermaids better than you - they want to see that you have a
>wide-spectrum talent, one that will work with the projects they have in
>mind, and one that will work with the other artists they already have. If
>you have an extremely unique style (no matter how good it might be), if it
>won't work with what they already have, you probably won't get the job.
I spent some of my time at SDCC at the marvel(?) booth as they were
conducting public on-the-spot interviews and reviewing portfolios. It
was certainly an education!
These kids (really - early 20's max) would display *amazing* artwork,
and the interviewer would give them his honest opinions and
suggestions. Sometimes I *did* hear the interviewer say, "That's good
art, you can draw, but we really don't need ... do you have anything
like ... your style needs ... lacks consistency". It was eye-opening
to see whom he would turn away!
Honestly, the portfolios of the guys that *approached* the interviewer
really seemed far above the art I usually see in furry - and these
guys/gals weren't getting hired ... it would have been entirely
intimidating if the interviewer hadn't been so professional.
Just my three cents' worth.
-------------------
Farlo m>*_*<m
Urban Fey Dragon
I am not postmaster@[localhost] nor postmaster@[127.0.0.1]
-------------------
Tatter_D
>
>Sorry for being a bit cranky but I'm getting tired of listening to all of
>the furry conspiracy therories.
>
>There's no one out to get you - get over it.
"NO! I'll never believe it! It would make my whole life look stupid!"
- quote from an anti-government militia survivalist of my acquaintance, when I
responded to a rant on his part, about how the government was trying to trick
the militias by making them think they were being tricked, with "Maybe they're
really not out to get you after all?"
"Of course there's no proof! To the paranoid, that's the second most damning
proof of all. Why would there be no proof, if someone hadn't covered it up?
And why would someone cover it up, if they didn't have something to hide?"
"Okay, I'll bite. What's the first most damning proof?"
"Evidence that contradicts them. There couldn't possibly be proof to the
contrary, unless someone falsified it. And why would someone go through the
trouble of falsifying evidence, if they weren't really and truly threatened by
the truth? Say what you will about paranoid psychopaths, but you have to envy
the fact that they're never wrong, at least in their own minds."
David Cooksey
lot of folks that may be new to the fandom, should be a bit of encouragement
for the newer talent we have in the fandom and is just all around a nice
piece of good news to hear. I am archiving it myself.
I'll also point out in response to Richard that Ken Mitchroney is a GOH as
Further Confusion and is even doing the cover for our program book.
It didn't take that much work to get him either. Mostly, pro artists have a
very limited amount of time and you have to be part lucky and, even more
importantly, need to make them feel that your going to deal with them in a
professional manner. I know Richard feels that way about organizing cons,
he sure did it with the Conifur Art Show.
The more we can do that, the more likely we are to get those who have
progressed into the higher echelons of the art world to look at the fandom
fondly and to participate where they can.
David Cooksey
Doodles
wrote:
>While there have been a very few isolated cases of artists NOT getting
>jobs because the interviewer saw furries (or elves, or centaurs, or...),
>for the most part, the problem is that the applicant only showed ONE type
>of thing they did. When you apply for an art job, they don't want you
>because you are the best Care-Bear artist there is, or that no one can
>draw mermaids better than you - they want to see that you have a
>wide-spectrum talent, on that will work with the projects they have in
>mind, and one that will work with the other artists they already have. If
>you have an extremely unique style (no matter how good it might be), if it
>won't work with what they already have, you probably won't get the job.
Chuck Jones from "Chuck Reducks"
"If you were to come to my studio with a dozen drawings of Bugs Bunny,
I probably wouldn't be interested. But if you cam in with a dozen
good drawings of the human body, I would hire you on the spot."
That's about as succintly as I've seen it put. Publishers/directors/
producers are not looking for artists [or writers] that are "furry" or
"spandex" or "Elfquest" or whatever. They are lookng for _artists_
[or _writers._] People who are devoted to doing this for a living as
opposed to a hobby.
And Rich, I echo Silverjain's statements. An awful lot of the folks
on her list were at the last CF, including a number who were part of
the dealer's room I ran. As for those who did not show, they have
extremely busy lives and it's _very_ hard to get away from the job
when that deadline is fast approaching.
Unca Spooge, settling in for a long winter's nap.
Chuck Melville
<19981205125902...@ng16.aol.com>...
> Okay- here's my pet peeve. This continued myth that if you like furry
stuff you
> will NEVER get work in your whole entire life. Yes, it has happened to
some
> people, but I'm pretty much 100% sure that those people probably didn't
comport
> themselves in a professional manner, and that's why they didn't get the
jobs.
> (Or in some cases, maybe just weren't what the studios were looking for,
and
> sought an excuse for why they didn't get hired. A persecution complex
makes for
> great rumors.) Instead of harping on their situations, I'm gonna name the
> people that I know FOR A FACT either worked or have worked in animation
and/or
> comics.
Elin, you're one of the few people here I really hate to have a
disagreement with. But I'm going to have to disagree anyway. The chief
problem with your list, Elin, is that it contains people who have either
never been involved in furry fandom, became involved -after- becoming
professionally established, or who are no longer currently involved with
the fandom. So the claim becomes rather suspect. For example:
Cindy Crowell, John Nunnemacher, Mike Kazaleh, and Ken Mitchroney are no
longer involved in furry fandom, so far as I know. At least, I haven't
seen anything in any fanzine for quite a long time by any of them, with the
sole exception of a couple of recent things by Mitchroney. (Mike Kazaleh
-might- be involved in perhaps HUZZAH, but I don't really know.) It may be
simply that all are quite busy with their professional careers and can't
afford the time anymore, but having dropped that link to the fandom may
have helped. At any rate, both Mike and Mitch were both involved
professionally before turning to the fandom, and so didn't have to worry
about climbing over the obstacle of fandom's bad image; their track records
outweigh everything else.
Same with Stan Sakai, who was already working on GROO, SPIDER-MAN and
USAGI before becoming active in furry fandom. I don't think Fred Perry
ever really participated. Carl Gafford had worked for years at DC and
Disney Comics before becoming a furry fan (although he had been involved in
other facets of comic fandom). Dark One, so far as I know, was never
involved in furry fandom, but created his work wholecloth, and was already
a popular work because of his work on CRY FOR DAWN.
Stephanie Gladden was never involved in the fandom, so far as I know.
Sondra Roy, Erica Missey, Dutch, 'Stan Jinx', and Carla McNeil I simply
don't know enough about to comment on, one way or the other. (I'm aware
that Carla has been working on SHANDA, but I haven't seen any issues with
her work.) I don't know whether they found the fandom first or were
already professionals. But the fact that 'Stan Jinx' uses a pseudonym
speaks for itself, doesn't it? I accept the explanation that it's so his
son won't know about his adult work, but it obviously protects him from
other employers knowing about it as well.
Dave Kuhn had pretty much absented himself from furry fandom quite awhile
ago, due to concerns about fandom's image having a negative effect on his
employment in the field.
> 10. Marc Schirmeister. Another long-time furry fan, he started
Rowrbrazzle- and
> still works for an animation studio (which I can't remember the name of-
> D'OH!). He also worked on Monster Farm for Saban.
You obviously don't see Schirm much, or you'd know just how appalled he is
at the current state of the fandom, to the point where he has almost
nothing to do with it anymore. The last I've heard personally from Schirm
was that he was getting completely out of furry fandom and going back to
hobby trains; I don't believe he's employed at -all- by any studio
currently, though they may have changed since his last letter. And while
he -was- employed by different studios, he'll be the first to tell you how
tough it was to get in, and why.
> 11. Robert Guthrie. Draws furry stuff of a saucy nature. But he also
works for
> Warner Brothers. Hey, a job's a job!
Guthrie's connection with fandom has always been tenuous, and he's been
burned a couple of times in the past to where he's never done more than a
very few things. I believe (though I admittedly may be mistaken on this
point, in which case I welcome any corrections) that he also had
difficulties getting in as a professional artist due to the furry fandom
connection, although he did finally win in.
> 14. Joe Rosales. Gets much work outside of furry fandom for local
businesses
> (usually designing and drawing furry mascot characters)- and was also
given
> Heidi McDonald's seal of approval. For those of you who don't know, Heidi
> McDonald is the editor of Disney Adventures magazine which has a huge
> circulation. Joe tried out for it, using *gasp* furry characters, and
Heidi
> didn't spit on him or anything. She likes his stuff and actually gets
issues of
> Furrlough or Hunca Munca (my fanzine) that Joe is in. While we still
don't know
> if Joe will be working for Disney Adventures in the future, I thought
this
> would be good to bring up, to show that furry artists are not universally
> reviled.
Okay, Joe appears to be a good, valid example.
> 19. Terrie Smith. Terrie's a big name in fandom. But she has also done
> animation work, and I know she sells a lot of fantasy art that isn't
furry.
> She's able to make a living off of art- not bad!
Terrie is the only furry fan/pro who is actually making a living off of
furry art, agreed. But Terrie has been around for a long time now, and has
been active professionally for several years. Was the furry fandom stigma
as much of a concern when she first broke into animation? And it certainly
isn't as much of a concern now, I would think,
> 20. Linda Medley. While I don't think she's an actual fan, Castle Waiting
has
> many furry characters, and she even got a Xeric Grant to do the book. She
won
> Eisner Awards this year, and her book has furry characters in it.
Amazing!
The book may have furry characters in it, but they're not more than
supporting characters, are they? At any rate, Linda Medley has already
been established in the field many years ago, having worked on mainstream
DC comics, such as JUSTICE LEAGUE AMERICA and WONDER WOMAN, so she has a
wider background to support her, and no previous furry work at all.
No offense intended, Elin, but Pat is from outside furry fandom, and had
established himself with a wide variety of work; and you're employed
currently by your own company. I'm not arguing with your credits, which
are justly deserved, but your own examples don't prove your argument.
To sum up, I don't think you've disproved the concern that the image furry
fandom has acquired over the years is a stumbling block to getting
professional work, especially within the animation business. Most of your
examples are people who were either already established before joining the
fandom (and thus not really affected much) or who have disassociated
themselves from the fandom, either deliberately or through lack of time.
In some cases, your examples include folks who were never involved in the
fandom at all, and so would never have been affected directly.
A more appropriate list would have included people who came up through the
fandom over the past decade who managed to get into the industries, and who
are still involved in fandom.
Heck, I could name a few good examples under that criteria, starting with
Roz Gibson.
One point of yours that I -will- agree with is that some people use this
situation as an excuse, refusing to believe that there might be something
not quite up to standards about their work; it's easy to use the situation
as a scapegoat.
> Final point- your career is what you make it. Behaving in a professional
manner
> and basically giving the companies what they're looking for are usually
the
> best ways to get you hired. Your personal interests are your own
business.
Now this paragraph I can agree with completely; no disagreement from me
whatsoever on this.
--
-Chuck Melville-
"Little one, I would like to see -anyone- -- prophet, king or -god- --
persuade a thousand cats to do -anything- at the same time."
-Neil Gaiman; The Sandman: A Dream of a Thousand
Cats
Graf
<981205130...@mauser.at.kendra.com>...
>I notice that a lot of these folks don't do much work for Fanzines or the
>like any more. For a lot of them, "I'm too busy" also means that they've
>put the fandom behind them.
Hey, hey, HEY!
Yanno, Rich, I'd expect those fans who are so self-centric to think that the
creators in a given fandom are there for their entertainment only to think
this, but you? Of all people around, YOU should know better!
Okay, let's turn this around, shall we? You do a zine. You've been late on
issues, in fact this time around it's so bad you changed the deadline again
and are doing what you can to catch up on a good schedule. Now, why did
this happen? You moved, had job problems, generally life happened to you.
Legitimate reasons. Now let's plug in your own attitude: you're not "too
busy", you aren't liking the fandom enough to bother keeping a good
schedule. Yeah, right life happened to you. Just a handy excuse to turn
your back on the fandom and the artists in your book cause you really want
to have nothing more to do with them.
Not a very nice thing when it's turned around on you, is it Rich?
C'mon Rich...when I blow a deadline for Gallery it's not a case of "Sheesh,
this amateur zine again...what scraps can I toss it to shut him up for this
issue", it's an honest case of forgetting the deadline simply because I
honestly WAS horridly busy trying to wrangle or strangle my workload into
some semblance of order. Why do you think I send you the commission,
barter, and doodle images I've done between books? I'm either wrangling
Guardian Knights into submission, on email to artists whom I picked for The
Boudoir in trying to get art for it so I can get the first issue out as well
as gain art for the second. These two alone take up 90% of my time.
I'm not in many zines due to not being very prolific in the last two years
due to the fact I have a huge workload. Then why am I even on FurryMuck
some days and posting here? Because I can multitask while on the muck, be
there idle as I work, and I will drop off when I can't multitask anymore. I
have an hour or so that I use for email and sometimes I'll lurk on groups.
But there are times when I don't even do email or lurk all cause I just
couldn't.
Yeah, I'm a little snarley on this one. Why? Cause ever since Guardian
Knights #1 hit the stands, I've had to deal with this very common,
frustrating, and downright rude attitude from a good many fans: because I
went pro, I have turned my back on them and abandoned them just because I am
no longer a fan artist. Your comment falls right smack in the middle of
that attitude, and of all people you should know better.
>You don't see most of them at Cons either.
Hey! Yer fulla shit!
*siiiiighs* I just had to say that, get it out of my system cause yet again
you, Rich, of all people who should understand having a schedule and having
to WORK for a living, should understand and know that sometimes you just
CAN'T get to a con. And your attitude is falling smack in the middle of
that fanboy self-centric attitude: X, Y, and Z aren't at cons anymore! They
don't like meeeee! They hate the fandom! Sheesh, Rich... C'mon, rub those
brain cells together! THINK, man, THINK! How many times have I told you on
FurryMuck that I can't go to X con or Y con simply because I just can't 1)
afford it, 2) afford the time away from the drawing board, 3) have other
responsibilities?
I would like to go to Anthrocon and Duckon, but I can't. I can't afford it,
I have too much to do, and I have a family to care for. With Dean working a
steady full time job, I am the one who is the primary parent now and I
cannot go running off to the cons I'd like to. It's called having a life,
Rich.
As others have said in this thread, they've seen other pros at cons, hell I
have too! Sometimes, they have to pick and choose the best ones to go to.
Will it be good for them income wise? Will the time spent help in their
promotion of their product? Hell, a pro friend of mine once told me that
for each con attended, $1000/a day was lost in production time. That adds
up over the year. For myself, I can pencil one to four pages a day
(depending on variable factors), ink one to four a day, and for me to go off
to a con that's a potential twelve pages lost that I have to make up like
hell when I get back. It also adds up, especially since I'm moving up from
thirty two pages to forty with issue six. It also puts me behind on the
commission que. I used to have a six month wait time, then it shifted to a
year, now it's averaging 18 to 19 months. These things add up.
C'mon Rich...you know better.
Awhell, I ranted...*smacks forehead with palm*
My apologies to any I may have offended with my "fulla shit" comment. I've
had to deal with entirely too many who have that self-centric attitude, who
feel that because a creator isn't outputting lots to entertain them, said
creator is "out to get them" or "hates them" or is "abandoning and turning
their back on them". I will fully admit to having this same attitude back
years ago when I was just a fan. I have no clean robe here. But when I
joined the ranks of pro and experienced for myself being so busy and doing
multitasking to the point of near tears for not being able to get all done
that I'd like, I suddenly understood why the pros are as scarce as they can
be and just sometimes aren't as prolific as the fans would like.
--Tygger L. Graf...who has lots to do and really shouldn't be ranting, but
sometimes it needs to be done...
Graf
Graf wrote in message <74etoj$rfv$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>...
[snip of her own post where she writes off the cuff in a moment of heated
indignation]
*takes the batteries out of the Tygger furby so it'll cool down*
Okay...I was stupid. I did a big no-no and posted off when I should have
taken it to email. I was wrong and made a mistake. And I'm sitting here
laughing at myself for being so downright silly, too. Sorry for any typos!
My apologies to Rich Chandler. I didn't mean it as flaming, and in looking
back (gotta love that 20-20 hindsight *laughs at self*) what I ranted sure
as hell comes across as that. *rolls eyes at self* Rich, yanno me, I've
ranted at you before whenever you've said something that I thought was
stupid and you knew better than to say or do, yanno I mean no harm. Heh,
point for you, you're one of the few lately who's gotten me to actually post
again.
But...
I will stand by what I said though. Nine times out of ten, a pro is
honestly busy, and honestly just can't take the time to do things or go to
cons that the fans would like them to do and go to.
*puts the batteries back into the Tygger furby, which blinks its eyes, looks
around, then goes silent as it settles back to watch the other furbies, now
and then nudging the Daphne furby*
Erf, I can't stop laffing...heh...
--Tygger L. Graf...feeling rather silly at the moment...*snerks at self*...
SilverJain
Toanswer a few of your points (hey, I've got time, we're running negatives
right now. Nothing to do but wait for the machine to finish.)
Cindy Crowell may not be in fanzines, but I still count her as a furry fan. She
still buys furry related toys, comics, and various gewgaws. She still has an
Eeyore tattoo. And she still likes furry stuff. (By the way, my definition of a
furry fan ois someone who likes furry or anthropomorphic stuff to the point
where they will purchase, collect or otherwise seek out said material.
Contributing to fanzines or being on FurryMuck or the newsgroup or whatever are
not the only ways to be a Furry Fan TM)
I see John Nunnemacher at ConFurence every year. Before I stopped signing on to
FurryMuck, I saw him there too. I assume Mike Kazaleh still likes furry stuff-
i do know his wife Tracy still does. It wasn't that long ago that I saw her at
a convention.
I saw Stan at ConFurence also. He bought a membership, just like everyone else.
Carl Gafford is still in Rowrbrazzle (as far as I know- since it is a closed
zine, it's hard to know who's in it or who isn't.) I know he's a fan of furry
comics also.
Dark One didn't work on Cry For Dawn. And he buys furry comics, he just doesn't
write in to them. I have a lot of readers like that. I'm pretty sure they're
still fans though. Dark One has also costumed as some of his furry characters
at costume contests. Yes, he's not in our end of fandom, but I still count him
as a fan.
Stephanie Gladden is a fan of Joe Rosales' work at least. He knows her better
than I do.
Sondra was on a mailing list I was on. That's a fan activity, isn't it? erica
Missey was a Furrlough reader and fan who got published and then went on to do
animation. Dutch is involved in fandom to a small degree, after he was shown
the way by Cindy Crowell. He's not in fanzines, but I know he has drawn a lot
of people's fan characters. Carla is a fan- she buys books. She sent in a piece
of fan art to Shanda and that's how she got her job on the book. "Stan Jinx"
previously did a ouple of adult portfolios which sold through Mailbox Books
before he started working on Filthy Animals- and he did the folios under his
own name. This was before his son was born, however.
Schirm is very unhappy with the state of the fandom- I have heard this from
Joe, who talks to him more than I do. But Schirm also recently sent me in some
stuff to see if I'd like to use it in Furrlough. (Good stuff too- I can't wait
to use it...)
Fred Perry is indeed a fan- just ask him about Thundercats or Scooby Doo
someday... There's a reason there are furry characters in Gold Digger- Fred
just LIKES them.
And as for Pat- you obviously didn't see the portfolios he sold at ConFurence
and thru Mailbox Books. He did those on his own. And since he is my boyfriend,
I think I can speak with authority when I say he does like furry material, he's
just not very outspoken or active in ANY of the fandoms he's interested in.
He's a huge fan of Stosstrupp and goes on at length about Chris Whalen's work.
Trust me, he's a fan.
Which brings me to another point- there are many people who are fans or who
consider themselves fans, but who may never delve into organized fandom. Just
because those of us who are "in the know" don't know them or haven't
encountered them doesn't mean they are not fans.
Dave Kuhn has distanced himself though, so I should not have included him on
the list. My apologies.
The only point I really wanted to make was that there are people who either
have enjoyed or who still enjoy furry material (I call them fans) who are
working in the professional industries. And I wanted to have a positive list.
Obviously, these points have been lost, so I won't say any more on the subject.
--Elin at Radio Comix
Roz Gibson
still in regular contact with Tracy and Mike Kazaleh. Mike has released some
self-published furry stuff through MailBox Books, not to mention his MU Press
Graphic novel The Suit. He's not doing comics mainly because (I belive) lack
of a regular publisher. Dave Kuhn and Jimmy Chin have moved onto the fursuiting
side of the fandom, but have by no means dissapeared. Other pro Furry fans from
the Huzzah roster include:
Noah Miller, who has done work for The Simpsons, MGM Animation, and others I
can't remember.
Myself, Karena Kliefoth, Brian Reynolds, Tracy Wagner, Will Faust and Scott
Ruggels, who all do work in the computer graphics field.
Two of our Canadian members, Andrea Robbins and John Spiedel, who do freelance
animation and storyboard work.
Most of the other members have had their work professionaly published in some
capacity, including Chris Whalen, who does illustrations for pet bird
magazines.
A lot of the people mentioned as having left havn't really, they just keep a
quiet profile. You can find them at cons if you look carefully and don't point
and shout. They scare easy. ;)
Roz G.
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
> Most of the other members have had their work professionaly published
> in some capacity, including Chris Whalen, who does illustrations for
> pet bird magazines.
And who recently quit Gallery.
Doodles
Chandler - WA Resident) wrote:
>In article <74fsp4$ups$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>, no.spam...@huzzah.com (Roz
>Gibson) writes:
>> Most of the other members have had their work professionaly published
>> in some capacity, including Chris Whalen, who does illustrations for
>> pet bird magazines.
>
>And who recently quit Gallery.
No doubt because [and this is not to denegrate you because I know that
you do your best to see that artists get their fair share of the
proceeds] pet bird magazines pay better. A person only has so much
time to do what they want, and that includes putting meat on the
table.
Timothy Fay
folks who work in the industry. But I think it would be much more
interesting to hear from at least a few of them directly, instead
of just name-dropping them into this newsgroup.
One of the people you mentioned is someone I've known for a long
time. And despite the fact that he founded an important and
popular "furry" publication, he has very little good to say about
the fandom these days. His past involvement with furries has not
been an impediment in his professional work, but he still does not
care to be associated with so-called "furry" fandom.
The consensus among others on your list that I know is pretty much
the same: Being a "furry" won't necessarily hurt your career, but
it won't help it much, either.
-Tim
--
http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m279/fayxx001/
"Hey, ho -- let's go!" -Ramones
Joe Rosales
> The chief problem with your list, Elin, is that it contains
> people who have either never been involved in furry fandom, became
> involved -after- becoming professionally established, or who are
> no longer currently involved with the fandom.
> Cindy Crowell, John Nunnemacher, Mike Kazaleh, and Ken Mitchroney
> are no longer involved in furry fandom, so far as I know.
So your argument would be: If someone buys the comics, watches the TV
shows, reads the books, goes to the cons actively seeks out new material
of the type being discussed, expresses an affinity for that material
when asked, and even produces some of that material themselves, then
they should still not be considered a fan.
Unless they actively join in internet discussions and submit free art to
the particular genre fanzines, preferably the ones you read.
Let me put it this way:
Cindy Crowell sits around sketching Warner Brothers characters in
greaser outfits for fun. She draws pictures of the members of her
rockabilly band as cartoon animals because she likes to think of them
like that. She made a Cadence the Mule outfit to wear on Halloween,
which I have a photo of. She was in Rowrbrazzle. She has a weird
fascination with Eeyore, she does a dead-on Slappy Squirrel
impersonation, she was thrilled to death to get to draw Bugs and Pepe le
Pew "officially", and she did furry comic strips on the side long before
she ever did anything for Elin. And you're saying she's not a real
furry fan because she doesn't submit to fanzines *right now*?! You
should be slapped upside the head for even making such an assertion.
Since when does enthusiastically drawing funny animal comics for 1800
people for a nationwide comic make you less of a fan than drawing funny
animal comics for 200 people for a fanzine, or 20 people at a con?
> At any rate, both Mike and Mitch were both involved professionally
> before turning to the fandom, and so didn't have to worry about
> climbing over the obstacle of fandom's bad image; their track records
> outweigh everything else.
> Same with Stan Sakai, who was already working on GROO, SPIDER-MAN and
> USAGI before becoming active in furry fandom.
So you're saying that although they buy the books and watch the TV shows
and go to the conventions and so on, and despite the fact that they
publicly _make a living_ producing material that is most often held up
by the fans as examples of the popularity and quality of the genre in
question, they cannot be considered fans themselves because they no
longer submit to fanzines and participate in the newsgroups.
By this argument Adam Warren is not an anime fan, because he does not
submit to fanzines or newsgroups. And Alan Davis is not a superhero
fan, for much the same reason.
> I don't think Fred Perry ever really participated.
Because you didn't get to see the issues of "Bunny Pages" and "Bestiary"
and "Furloose" he was in? Because you didn't see him at A-Kon or San
Diego, even though he was there doing sketches and chatting with his
fans? Because you're not one of the scores of furry fans with free pics
of Cheetah or Stripe in his sketchbook? Fred's probably done more furry
fanzine work than I have, and he's done plenty of comics pages of pure
furry stuff.
Fred is, in fact, one of the most fan-friendly pros I've ever seen. He
has passed up awards dinners where people have paid to sit with him
because he didn't want to leave off his chatting with and sketching for
his loyal fans in the hotel lobby. His fan orientation is so intense
that his personal fandom, that is, people who will simply buy anything
that says "Fred Perry" on it, is larger than most regional conventions;
and we have absolutely no doubt that his thirty or forty biggest fans
would fight with hay hooks for the privilege of taking a bullet for
him. If you don't think Fred participates enough in the furry fandom,
perhaps you should take it up with his extensive personal fandom. You
can get in contact with many of them through the Gold Digger Webring.
> Stephanie Gladden was never involved in the fandom, so far as I know.
So buying Wild Life way back when; then submitting funny animal comics
on her own to an indy book, even while she was drawing 'people' comics
elsewhere; and then, when offered a chance to do her own original comic,
picking a 100% funny animal cast, and working on the comic eight hours a
day every day to bring it to the public -- this still doesn't make her a
fan, again because she doesn't submit to fanzines and newsgroups.
> Sondra Roy, Erica Missey, Dutch, 'Stan Jinx', and Carla McNeil I
> simply don't know enough about to comment on, one way or the other.
Well, that didn't much stop you in the previous cases. Erica, for
instance, became an intense fan of early my stuff while she was in her
first years at the same university as I went to. She read the last
semester of the strip I did, which featured a couple of anthros as main
characters, and later started picking up Furrlough on her own, although
she didn't make the connection to my earlier material -- she just liked
funny animal stuff. She came over to the AP office to meet me and
gushed over my work, and then almost immediately started working on
stuff with Elin for Wild Life. Then, after graduating, she got her
portfolio together and got a job in animation, where she draws for a
mass audience eight hours a day. But she did almost nothing for
fanzines, so I guess that proves your point, right?
> Terrie is the only furry fan/pro who is actually making a living
> off of furry art, agreed.
I guess I don't count, even though all I do is art for a living?
Terrie, by the way, does other work on the side, just like all of us. I
do t-shirts. Gladden does storyboards. Terrie does animation. I don't
think that any artist anywhere makes a living doing only -one- type of
work in only -one- genre, except possibly for some spacescape sci-fi
artists and those guys that paint landscapes for hotel rooms.
Everybody else does what comes across their board for the right price,
in as diverse a subject and media as they can get. I did a bunch of
t-shirts with cement trucks on them. Does this mean I'm not a furry
fan? Gladden did storyboards for "Pepper Ann". Does this mean she's
not a furry fan? Terrie did a bunch of Elfquest and centaur pictures.
Does this mean she's not a furry fan? Don't be absurd.
> No offense intended, Elin, but <...> you're employed
> currently by your own company.
By that argument, Chuck, your own professional credits and any respect
gained from them -- and professional respect is what we're talking about
here -- is also worthless, because your own comics came out from a
company that you were in charge of. Have *you* suffered professional
disrespect because you worked in furry material? Please, share with the
group.
> A more appropriate list would have included people who came up
> through the fandom over the past decade who managed to get into the
> industries, and who are still involved in fandom.
In essence, what you're saying is that you want a list of people who
have gone out and worked their butts off for years and gotten full-time
jobs producing funny animal material eight to ten hours a day, and still
hang around fanzines and newsgroups as much as when they were going to
school and producing the stuff in their spare time. You want people who
are taking the stuff they would normally sell to buy food and make
insurance payments because it's their only job now, and you want them to
give it away for free because you think that getting something to 2000
people and getting paid for it is less "involved" than getting stuff to
50 people for free.
I find this attitude selfish and foolish, not to mention invidious in
the extreme. To say that someone is not a furry fan because they've
devoted their all their time to doing furry material for a living,
rather than holding down a day job so they could give the stuff away to
the dinky fanzines you like to read and chat with you on the MUCK, is
tantamount to saying that professionals shouldn't exist -- even though
full-time professionals are what bring the fandom the kind of respect
you're talking about.
There is no professional stigma associated with furry fandom. When you
talk to an editor, or a director, or a printer, they don't give a damn
what you do in your spare time -- and that's what fandom, any fandom,
is: a spare time activity. They care about the quality your work, and
how it will sell, and how quickly you can produce it, and occasionally
whether they personally like you (although that's more about how easy
they think you'll be to deal with). If you say "I like to go home and
beat myself with rubber stockings filled with potatoes", their first
thought is "Will that affect his production schedule?" They don't care
what you do in your spare time. And when the schedule gets tight, the
spare time activities are the first to go. *The fandom is something you
do in your spare time.*
I stopped taking commissions and submitting to fanzines because I want
to devote myself to producing comic pages. I'm a very slow artist, and
art is all I do, and it takes me a long time. In fact, no doubt much to
Elin's enragement, I took a break from finishing the backgrounds on my
latest story to answer this; mostly because your post is such an affront
to everyone who has gone pro or tried to, and because by your standards
I will very soon be on the list under "Not A -REAL- Fan" also. But I'd
rather be on that list and making a living selling thousands of copies
to my fans and the fandom in general, and being treated like a pro by
other pros at cons.
The alternative is coming home after an eight-hour day of typing resumes
and trying to muster any urge to crank out a drawing for free to mail to
someone who will essentially show it around to their friends. And
trying to get unscheduled time off two or three times a year to hang
around cons and "be seen". I imagine from your posts that this is your
idea of being what being a true furry fan is all about, and that this
would be the best way for me to be "involved with the fandom".
You can rest assured that when I'm inking Romanics pages and laying out
Ghoul Acres stories, the thoughts that two thousand people will read
them and I'll be paid enough to make my car insurance payments will be
far greater factors than the thought that if I gave them away to some
300-selling APAzine I would be a purer, more fan-involved person in your
eyes. Personally, I'm glad that Stephanie and Cindy and Stan aren't
hanging around in this newsgroup to be exposed to such tripe. They're
actually out in the real world, producing something for this fandom and
the world in general.
A lesson that I, apparently, have yet to learn as fully.
-- Joe
Visit my website full of stuff at http://www.FurNation.com/Animus. Hey,
it's on the internet, so at least it's free!
Arved
> If you say "I like to go home and
> beat myself with rubber stockings filled with potatoes", their first
> thought is "Will that affect his production schedule?"
I guess that depends on if the filling is raw and how hard you hit!
BTW, is that a fun activity? Do you think we should try this? :o)
> You can rest assured that when I'm inking Romanics pages
Yay! Can't wait to buy them. Romanics was one of the titles that
caused me to build a collection of all Furrlough issues. Your
Lemuria installment was great, too.
Arved (who is buying pro and fan stuff and will buy more of it)
Pelzig/Knechtschaft Studio
<joea...@NOSPAMstic.net> wrote:
> Because you didn't get to see the issues of "Bunny Pages" and "Bestiary"
> and "Furloose" he was in? Because you didn't see him at A-Kon or San
> Diego, even though he was there doing sketches and chatting with his
> fans? Because you're not one of the scores of furry fans with free pics
> of Cheetah or Stripe in his sketchbook? Fred's probably done more furry
> fanzine work than I have, and he's done plenty of comics pages of pure
> furry stuff.
Fred has been in several other furry fanzines asides from the ones
mentioned above...an Fred was at the San Diego Comic Con this year and was
swamped with sketchbook work.
> Fred is, in fact, one of the most fan-friendly pros I've ever seen. He
> has passed up awards dinners where people have paid to sit with him
> because he didn't want to leave off his chatting with and sketching for
> his loyal fans in the hotel lobby. <snip>
Definatly no argument here. Fred is pure class when it comes to being
there for his fans and they return the favor in spades by supporting Fred
and his work.
TCASF,
Ed "Pelzig" Dyer
Knechtschaft Studio
Daphne Lage
<wonderful rant towards Chuck Melville snipped>
This whole discussion only goes to show that people who you think should
"know better" don't, and the people who you wouldn't put passed them for
having an opinion like the one's Chuck and Richard put forth don't *have*
that opinion.
Only goes to show you that sometimes the fans *do* know better - all they
want is furry stuff - they don't care if it's in a fanzine or on the big (or
little) screen. But then again, Chuck and Richard have already proven that
their "definition" of what and who belong in the fandom is *extremely*
narrow to begin with. So in the end, their support of "furry conspiracy
theories" doesn't surprise me either. Of course they have to discredit the
professionals who don't work in the fandom *now* despite how much they
support it from afar - It doesn't serve whatever agendas they're supporting
(whether they admit to it or not). Now - what those agenda's may be I don't
have a clue - because defining the fandom as narrowly as they do makes
*absolutely* no sense to me and is so suffocating, I'd *not* call myself a
furry just so I can *breathe*!
Rich - I'm going to have to smack you with a newspaper the next time I see
you... but you'd probably like that. ;)
And remember - what I've just said above isn't carved in stone - and I'm
more than willing to discuss the matter at whatever con I'm at next to
whomever wants to talk.
Chow! (the dog so nice, they named it twice ;) )
Joe Rosales
>> If you say "I like to go home and beat
>> myself with rubber stockings filled with potatoes", their first
>> thought is "Will that affect his production schedule?"
>
> BTW, is that a fun activity? Do you think we should try this? :o)
This practice, known as "potatoe flagellation", was recently given some
recognition in alternative magazines and tabloids the UK; although it is
still considered illegal and immoral in Ireland, the area from which it
originates. I'm no expert, though -- I just read about it. Things like
that are pretty slow to catch on down here in San Antonio, and anyway I
wouldn't know.
I think that "Loaded" is going to do a big article on the potato scene
somewhere in the next couple issues -- mashing parties, hot butter,
lumpy vs baked, the dangers of chives, the fringe "scalloped" group, the
brown vs cream gravy debate, everything. From what I've heard, it's
almost as big as the "mouse" craze there in the mid-70's.
-- Joe
Visit my website full of stuff at http://www.FurNation.com/Animus. Hey,
it's on the internet, so at least it's free! No potatoes, though.
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
egor...@advanix.net> writes:
> Rich - I'm going to have to smack you with a newspaper the next time I
> see you... but you'd probably like that. ;)
Actually, Daphne. I've been saving the posts on this thread, because this
seems to be the first time counter-examples to the professional death-knell
stories we've all heard have come around.
While we can't categorically say that there is NO Furry Stigma, as Joe seems
to be saying, because there ARE some examples of that happening, (Ask Paul
Kidd). It's also apparently not universal.
On the other hand, while Cindy (to take an example) obviously is a fan, I
haven't seen much evidence of her in the fandom. But then, there are lots of
furries who aren't involved in the Fandom. Just like someone who reads and
enjoys science fiction can be a fan of science fiction. "Science Fiction
Fans" per-se are different. Fandom activities are what makes the difference
between someone who is a Fan, and somone who is in the Fandom. (I am not
ranking these, mind you).
I'm willing to be convinced. Hell, on this issue, I'd love to be proved
wrong. So don't lump me in with Chuck.
David Cooksey
Richard Chandler - WA Resident wrote in message
>
>wrong. So don't lump me in with Chuck.
>
Okay, heres a little bit on another pro thats been very very kind to make
some time for the fandom. Ken Mitchroney is GOH at Further Confusion, is
doing the cover for our program book and is even trying to help us out by
bringing a couple of other folks over from Pixar to talk about things going
on over there.
Our other GOH's are also pro's but since Ken was mentioned in this thread I
thought that I would mention him in particular.
David Cooksey
who just realized he is supposed to be calling those GOH's this week, not
messing around on newsgroups <grin> Bye.
Cerulean
>I think that "Loaded" is going to do a big article on the potato scene
>somewhere in the next couple issues -- mashing parties, hot butter,
>lumpy vs baked, the dangers of chives, the fringe "scalloped" group, the
>brown vs cream gravy debate, everything. From what I've heard, it's
>almost as big as the "mouse" craze there in the mid-70's.
Heh heh... All I keep thinking of is poor confused Rincewind in
_Interesting Times._ :=}
--
___vvz /( Cerulean http://home.att.net/~kevinpease
<__,` Z / ( DC.D/? fs+h++ Gm CB^P a$m++d+++l*g-e!i
`~~~) )Z) ( FDDmp4adwsA+++$C+D+HM+P-RT+++WZSm#
/ (7 ( zoq7ep - ,,!ssau!>)em +)a+ap I '''haH,,
Timothy Fay
>
> The only point I really wanted to make was that there are people who either
> have enjoyed or who still enjoy furry material (I call them fans) who are
> working in the professional industries. And I wanted to have a positive list.
Such a list wasn't really necessary (and was a little forward; most
of the people on that list can make their cases for themselves, if
they want to). If you consider yourself a professional and also a
furry fan, then you don't need a more positive example than yourself.
-Tim
--
http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m279/fayxx001
"Bowl a strike, not a spare -- revolution everywhere!" -RABL motto
Anonymous
Joe Rosales <joea...@NOSPAMstic.net> wrote:
>> The chief problem with your list, Elin, is that it contains
>> people who have either never been involved in furry fandom, became
>> involved -after- becoming professionally established, or who are
>> no longer currently involved with the fandom.
>> <...>
>> Cindy Crowell, John Nunnemacher, Mike Kazaleh, and Ken Mitchroney
>> are no longer involved in furry fandom, so far as I know.
>
>So your argument would be: If someone buys the comics, watches the TV
>shows, reads the books, goes to the cons actively seeks out new material
>of the type being discussed, expresses an affinity for that material
>when asked, and even produces some of that material themselves, then
>they should still not be considered a fan.
I think you have a point, Joe... it's just that the thing is,
Disney will not hire anyone known to be a "furry fan", as far
as I know... or, they at least wont hire someone for their
features department because this would be a potential embarassment.
There are at least 2 furry fans (who claim not to be but go to
cons and dress up in costumes) working for Disney features, but
they keep things quiet and don't distribute their furry art that they
do in private. It is my guess that there are a lot of actual or potential
furry fans who have innocent fantasies (or whatever) about the
characters they draw - they're only human after all, but they are
too scared to go public with it for fear of losing their jobs.
This makes me wonder... if someone knew that they weren't hired by Disney
purely because they had drawn some nude rabbits, could they sue Disney
on the basis of discrimination?
I think eventualy society will change, but people need to exert pressure
on the institutions of society before they are willing to change and
stop being so conservative. Perhaps there should be a furry artist
legal defense fund. People should agitate and make a cause out
of this, I think... it is, after all, an injustice to use fear
and intimidation to controll the basic human aspiration for freedom and
respectability with their art, and their lives.
m...@netcom.com
Joe Rosales <joea...@NOSPAMstic.net> wrote:
>From what I've heard, it's
> almost as big as the "mouse" craze there in the mid-70's.
It'll never replace the "pet rock", though.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Hangdog
> In article <366F5B...@NOSPAMstic.net>,
> Joe Rosales <joea...@NOSPAMstic.net> wrote:
> >From what I've heard, it's
> > almost as big as the "mouse" craze there in the mid-70's.
>
> It'll never replace the "pet rock", though.
"Anyone can pump a plushie;
Be a REAL man and boink your pet rock!!"
(Sorry: the Devil made me say that...;o)
--Hangdog
Dr. Cat
: The consensus among others on your list that I know is pretty much
: the same: Being a "furry" won't necessarily hurt your career, but
: it won't help it much, either.
I like to watch TV sometimes. But I found out that while watching TV
won't necessarily hurt your career, it won't help it much either. Dang,
I guess I should give it up!. And you know what I found out about eating
toast? Won't hurt your career, but it won't help it much either. No
more toast for me! Camping trips, movies, origami, restaurants, skiing?
They won't necessarily hurt my career, but they won't help it much either!
Hey, furry fandom is a hobby. Hobbies aren't *supposed* to have to help
your career, though if one happens to sometimes for some people hey, more
power to it. :X)
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(Disclaimer: If you inherited millions at the age of 7, then maybe
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to this address, c/o "Me me me!", and i'll tell you how to proceed next.)