Fun with Sub-woofers...
Fletcher
sub-woofers, they're invariably a time smear nightmare of the
apocalypse. Main monitors are custom Wright's with Yamaha 2700
amps...they're a 15" co-ax with proprietary tweeter, passive crossover,
extra 15" sub all in one cabinet.
The client does mostly 'Dancehall' stuff, [ie. Beenie Man]...apparently
Sly Dunbar worked in their room and liked it quite a bit...but wanted a
sub-woofer for tracking. I made the client promise that they'll remove
the sub from the room when they're mixing [yeah, I know it'll never
happen, but as long as they promised then I feel morally off the hook].
Anyone have any suggestions for something that is reasonably portable
[like two guys can carry it, and can fit through a normal sized
doorway], perhaps something like a single 18"...I figured to mono the
main monitor output, 18db/octave Hi-pass filter at about 70Hz, powered
with a Bryston 7B or strapped MacIntosh 2500.
I haven't been looking at what's available, especially in
'portable'...my bad...any thoughts?
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
theBorg
hell do you put it? On the floor behind/under the mixing console? Up on
top in the middle of the sweet spot? Where, how?
dave
Scott Dorsey
theBorg <d...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>The whole sub-woofer in the studio thing has got me confused. Where the
>hell do you put it? On the floor behind/under the mixing console? Up on
>top in the middle of the sweet spot? Where, how?
First you put the subwoofer in the mix position, preferably in your
seat.
Then you get down on your hands and knees and move around the room
while playing something that has a lot of broadband bass energy
(A Jaco Pastorius album, for example). You find the place where
the bass sounds right, where it is loud but not too boomy.
And then you put the subwoofer at the point where it sounded good.
Rule of Symmetry doesn't always hold in this case, but it's surprisingly
effective and it doesn't take a lot of work.
-scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
FPLiuzzi
If you are looking for a compact (11'' cube), but powerful subwoofer, you may
want to try out a Sunfire Pro True Subwoofer. DMP's Tom Jung did a complete and
very favorable review of this unit in the March 1999 issue of PRO AUDIO REVIEW
magazine. Tom Jung was using the self powered Sunfire sub in his studio's 5.1
monitor system. I've had one of these subs myself for a few years in my stereo
system.
Frank
Sunfire's web site is www.sunfire.com
Green Grass Goblin
"EARTHQUAKE" or "BONECRUSHER" painted on the dust cap.
In my (limited) experience Paradigm make the best subs. You could also try
Rockford Fosgate or at a pinch the good old Cerwin Vega. Fuck they've got
60" of drivers and that's not enough?!? Maybe you should sell them a PA
rig. Or maybe some headphones?
Sorry thishits no help
Brendon
Barry Blumenthal
>
>Anyone have any suggestions for something that is reasonably portable
>[like two guys can carry it, and can fit through a normal sized
>doorway], perhaps something like a single 18"...I figured to mono the
>main monitor output, 18db/octave Hi-pass filter at about 70Hz, powered
>with a Bryston 7B or strapped MacIntosh 2500.
>
>I haven't been looking at what's available, especially in
>'portable'...my bad...any thoughts?
Just a few, and without any guarantee at all as to their usefulness, but I
certainly owe you big time for the help in the past, so I'll throw a few
things at you.. who knows, you probably already know all this stuff anyway..
First, at least in regards to an all-out assault on extreme bottom end
extension, you might want to look at a servo-motor driven sub designed by
Tom Danley (I think... if you're interested in this, let me know and I'll
dig out/up some more info) that he made available as a parts kit to members
of the DIY speaker list a year or two ago, and met with an amazing amount of
positive response. It was a power-sucking monster, so you'd need a a ton of
power to drive it, but as I recall it was flat down into the low teens w/out
any goofy EQ tricks ala the Bag End ELF designs. Re/ portability-- two guys
could carry it, but it wasn't designed for transportability. I don't know
if you're interested in doing any actual constructing, either.. I don't
think it's available as a finished unit. I don't think it's performance,
however, has an equal, and it would probably thrill your clients.
Second thought - You may not want to limit yourself to a single sub. Two
subs can actually make it easier to get a flatter response w/in a given
room, and need not be placed symetrically; often, assymetrical placement
assists in cancelling standing nodes. Each cabinet can be smaller, too, as
they're sharing their duty, so the portability aspect is enhanced. Again,
if you can/want to DIY, check out the NHT 1259 12" driver; it'll get you
down flat into the upper 20's in a sealed 3 cubic foot enclosure, with
significant output into the low 20s. I've got diagrams for a relatively
simple rigid, proven cabinet design, if you're interested, which I'd be
happy to forward to you.
Last thought - re/ your active XO - I'm assuming you mean to place the HP
filters ahead of your mains amp. This isn't critical, but you might wish to
place a low-pass filter ahead of your sub amp, too. If nothing else, it
might make the XO area between your mains and your subs smoother. It also
might aid in avoiding some of the "smearing" you referred to in your
description of why you avoid subs in the first place. I felt the same way,
Fletcher, until I built my AC LV/Sub system.. they integrate beautifully,
you only feel the sub, and the mains throw one of the nicest, accurate
soundstages I've heard in anything but insanely priced speakers. Matching
the XO region is everything, along with room placement of the sub.
Just some food for thought and/or corrections... I think I've got most of
that right. HTH at least a flea's flutterblast.
Barry
--
Barry Blumenthal
Freelance Jazz Pianist/Educator/HouseholdFundUsurper
Chase Mills, NY
reply to... bar...@northnet.org or blum...@potsdam.edu
Dave
> Re/ portability-- two guys
> could carry it, but it wasn't designed for transportability. I don't know
> if you're interested in doing any actual constructing, either.. I don't
> think it's available as a finished unit. I don't think it's performance,
> however, has an equal, and it would probably thrill your clients.
Having met Tom and Brad (Brad runs it, Tom invents all the cool stuff)
of ServoDrive fame (www.servodrive.com is the company's web page) I can
honestly say that the Contrabass _was_ designed for portability. They
also make a horn loaded version called the BassTech 7 that's a monster.
It was concieved for a project on elephant communication in Africa(?).
Some of the requirements were flat to the mid teens (16 in this case),
portable (by two women) and it had to fit in the back of a Trooper. It
gets plenty loud on a hundred watts. It's rated for 200, and it'll take
500 in short (<15 sec) peaks. 200W will put 114dB@16Hz out at 1 meter.
Stick it in the corner and feed it with an old QSC or Crown. Your guys
will love it. Just make sure they don't clip the amp. People who have
never heard really loud, low THD bass think it's doing something wrong.
It isn't, but people think it is because they don't hear the cone
distort at the limits of the driver. It tool me a while to get used to
the lack of distortion (~2% IIRC) from the box. Wow. Too bad I don't own one.
I don't work for them, but I'm more than happy to evangelize their
stuff. Tom's an amazing guy and the stuff he's created for SD is fantastic.
-dave
Tonebarge
but when you mentioned Sly a little light started blinking. There's a
guy, Hupton Brown aka The Scientist, who's worked with most of the Reggae
(more Rastafarian actually) groups of note. I know he's worked with Sly
and would have a clue as to what's needed ( he designs and builds most of
his stuff). My bet is that it won't have a lot to do with accurate but
more for gettin' the old Nyabinghi happening. Don't have Scientist's
number here at the studio but will look for his latest when I get home
this morning. He does most of his left coast mastering with me so I
should be able to track him down.
Regards,
TB
Fletcher wrote:
> I have to add a sub-woofer to a client's room...I hate fuckin'
> sub-woofers, they're invariably a time smear nightmare of the
> apocalypse. Main monitors are custom Wright's with Yamaha 2700
> amps...they're a 15" co-ax with proprietary tweeter, passive crossover,
> extra 15" sub all in one cabinet.
>
> The client does mostly 'Dancehall' stuff, [ie. Beenie Man]...apparently
> Sly Dunbar worked in their room and liked it quite a bit...but wanted a
> sub-woofer for tracking. I made the client promise that they'll remove
> the sub from the room when they're mixing [yeah, I know it'll never
> happen, but as long as they promised then I feel morally off the hook].
>
> Anyone have any suggestions for something that is reasonably portable
> [like two guys can carry it, and can fit through a normal sized
> doorway], perhaps something like a single 18"...I figured to mono the
> main monitor output, 18db/octave Hi-pass filter at about 70Hz, powered
> with a Bryston 7B or strapped MacIntosh 2500.
>
> I haven't been looking at what's available, especially in
> 'portable'...my bad...any thoughts?
Mike Rivers
> Anyone have any suggestions for something that is reasonably portable
> [like two guys can carry it, and can fit through a normal sized
> doorway]
Anyone know if that Carver thing that was advertised earlier this year
is still around? Sun sounething maybe? Supposed to be a fabulous
powered subwoofer in a box about the size of a case of wine.
It might kick some butt. I dunno. Never saw one up close enough to
hear it.
At the July NAMM show there was a company who was making a low frequency
transducer that you attached to things to let you feel the lows without
messing up the room. The obvious application is to mount it on the
drummer's seat and feed it the kick signal so he can get his butt shaken
(in fact I think it's called the Buttkicker, unless that's an alternate,
similar product). They were also demoing it for mixing, though, with
the idea that you could feel the lower end in your lower end and that
would help you to mix more accurately. I found it terribly distracting,
but maybe your client will get off on it and you don't have to hear it.
Put one on the producer's couch. <g>
--
Mike Rivers (I'm really mri...@d-and-d.com)
Scott Dorsey
Fletcher <Flet...@mercenary.com> wrote:
>I have to add a sub-woofer to a client's room...I hate fuckin'
>sub-woofers, they're invariably a time smear nightmare of the
>apocalypse. Main monitors are custom Wright's with Yamaha 2700
>amps...they're a 15" co-ax with proprietary tweeter, passive crossover,
>extra 15" sub all in one cabinet.
>
>The client does mostly 'Dancehall' stuff, [ie. Beenie Man]...apparently
>Sly Dunbar worked in their room and liked it quite a bit...but wanted a
>sub-woofer for tracking. I made the client promise that they'll remove
>the sub from the room when they're mixing [yeah, I know it'll never
>happen, but as long as they promised then I feel morally off the hook].
If you want real bass, the Sunfire Pro Subwoofer from Carver is hard to
beat. It's a small driver with an enormous Xmax, and a bunch of weird
servo feedback electronics to keep it linear across the range.
If what you really want is smooth, deep, extended bass, it's amazing,
and it goes very deep. It can be lifted in one hand.
Don't use the built-in crossover, though, which stinks.
If you want sloppy, bloated bass, you might be able to get it out of
the Carver with some equalization, and it will be a lot smaller than
typical 15" systems.
So, who really makes the Wright coaxials?
--scott
Barry Blumenthal
designs, and I WAS a little fuzzy on the details.
Barry
--
Barry Blumenthal
Freelance Jazz Pianist/Educator/HouseholdFundUsurper
Chase Mills, NY
reply to... bar...@northnet.org or blum...@potsdam.edu
Dave wrote in message <37FAEF2D...@comports.com>...
Mark Plancke
>I have to add a sub-woofer to a client's room...I hate fuckin'
>sub-woofers, they're invariably a time smear nightmare of the
>apocalypse. Main monitors are custom Wright's with Yamaha 2700
>amps...they're a 15" co-ax with proprietary tweeter, passive crossover,
>extra 15" sub all in one cabinet.
Fletcher
On a related note, there is an article on how to accurately setup a
subwoofer on Bob Katz's site. Haven't tried it so I can't speak for
the results.
http://www.digido.com/subwoofer.html
Mark Plancke
Right now the recording game is crawling with wannabees. Lots of
profiteering can be done at their expense, by making flimsy crap and
pitching it as "just as good as, or a suitable alternative to" something
that's really good and has stood the test of time. - Steve Albini
SOUNDTECH RECORDING STUDIOS
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
http://SoundTechRecording.com
Frank Kennedy
Frank Kennedy
60Hz, even big ones. Could be an interesting constuction project! Then
you wouldn't need to fit it through the door - build the room around
it.
The built-in 15" sub probably crosses at 150Hz or so (lower than that
is truly massive passive) - that would be bad. If it crosses around
120 or lower, then disconnect the built in sub and use the new one to
do it's job (but use a separate amp). If the new sub has to cross at
150, then it's directionality will be noticeable.
You're going to need (2) 18" drivers, or (4) 15" to match with the
existing setup. Dunno what the existing -3Db point is, but you're
going to need to go lower - maybe -3 @ 50 down to -10 at 30. BIG! If
fidelity is not a big issue, then there are some compact bandpass
designs out there.
I used some EAW SB1000e subs - very small, but they were the lowest
(with 40Hz processor bump) I've ever heard in any size cabinet. They
use a very peculiar 2X18 design. Truly devastating amounts of smooth
bass. I used 4 in a 80X100 tent with (2) bridged Crest 8001 amps - HOO
BOY!
On Tue, 05 Oct 1999 18:58:15 -0300, Fletcher <Flet...@mercenary.com>
wrote:
>I have to add a sub-woofer to a client's room...I hate fuckin'
>sub-woofers, they're invariably a time smear nightmare of the
>apocalypse. Main monitors are custom Wright's with Yamaha 2700
>amps...they're a 15" co-ax with proprietary tweeter, passive crossover,
>extra 15" sub all in one cabinet.
>
>The client does mostly 'Dancehall' stuff, [ie. Beenie Man]...apparently
>Sly Dunbar worked in their room and liked it quite a bit...but wanted a
>sub-woofer for tracking. I made the client promise that they'll remove
>the sub from the room when they're mixing [yeah, I know it'll never
>happen, but as long as they promised then I feel morally off the hook].
>
>Anyone have any suggestions for something that is reasonably portable
>[like two guys can carry it, and can fit through a normal sized
John Halliburton
>
> >Having met Tom and Brad (Brad runs it, Tom invents all the cool stuff)
> >of ServoDrive fame (www.servodrive.com is the company's web page) I can
> >honestly say that the Contrabass _was_ designed for portability.
I helped build the originals at Intersonics, the old company Tom and I wereat.
Researchers at Cornell U. had found out about our subs, and asked about
making something to fit in the back of an SUV(Isuzu Trooper as I recall).
Anyway,
they were hoping to get a sub that would give them more output below 20hz, and
hopefully
14hz. The "Elephant Speakers", were actually larger than the production
Contrabass,
being about 10 cuft volume. About a 24" square footprint, and only 37" high, to
slip
in the Trooper standing up. The cabinet has four 18" passiver radiators around
the
bottom sides, and the twin 15" drivern cones attached to the servomotor drive
assembly on top.
F3 is at 14hz, and produces about the same output as the commercial version,
114db or so with 200watts input, just at 14hz. Nice, slightly overdamped
alignment, makes
for a tight sound, and the low distortion of the servomotor drive unit makes it
sound terrific.
> People who have never heard really loud, low THD bass think it's doing
> something wrong.
It does make people notice things in the bass portions of the music that they
didn't notice before.;>)
The Basstech 7 is the horn loaded powerhouse, but still very low distortion.
Check the products out at the website: www.servodrive.com
including the Unity VFL full range loudspeaker.
Best Regards,
John Halliburton
Servodrive, Inc.
John Halliburton
Frank Kennedy wrote:
> This'll need to be *big*. Normal PA subs generally crap out below
> 60Hz, even big ones.
See my previous post on small high output low bass products. Ours do
itwithout processing.
> I used some EAW SB1000e subs - very small, but they were the lowest
> (with 40Hz processor bump) I've ever heard in any size cabinet. They
> use a very peculiar 2X18 design. Truly devastating amounts of smooth
> bass. I used 4 in a 80X100 tent with (2) bridged Crest 8001 amps - HOO
> BOY!
Basstech 7 subwoofers have an F3 of 28hz in a four unit setup,
110db/1w/1m;142db/400w/1m. I have yet to hear any sub that can keep up with
it. Biased?
Of course I am.
Best Regards,
John Halliburton
Servodrive, Inc.
Stephen St.Croix
If you and the client are willing to ignore the political rules, try two
of the largest servo Paradigms. Very low without cone flutter, not one
note wonders
> I have to add a sub-woofer to a client's room...I hate fuckin'
> sub-woofers, they're invariably a time smear nightmare of the
> apocalypse. Main monitors are custom Wright's with Yamaha 2700
> amps...they're a 15" co-ax with proprietary tweeter, passive crossover,
> extra 15" sub all in one cabinet.
>
> The client does mostly 'Dancehall' stuff, [ie. Beenie Man]...apparently
> Sly Dunbar worked in their room and liked it quite a bit...but wanted a
> sub-woofer for tracking. I made the client promise that they'll remove
> the sub from the room when they're mixing [yeah, I know it'll never
> happen, but as long as they promised then I feel morally off the hook].
>
> Anyone have any suggestions for something that is reasonably portable
> [like two guys can carry it, and can fit through a normal sized
> doorway], perhaps something like a single 18"...I figured to mono the
> main monitor output, 18db/octave Hi-pass filter at about 70Hz, powered
> with a Bryston 7B or strapped MacIntosh 2500.
>
> I haven't been looking at what's available, especially in
> 'portable'...my bad...any thoughts?
________________
Stephen St.Croix
john/blackcabin
>
> In article <37FA85DF...@rochester.rr.com>,
> theBorg <d...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >The whole sub-woofer in the studio thing has got me confused. Where the
> >hell do you put it? On the floor behind/under the mixing console? Up on
> >top in the middle of the sweet spot? Where, how?
>
> First you put the subwoofer in the mix position, preferably in your
> seat.
>
> Then you get down on your hands and knees and move around the room
> while playing something that has a lot of broadband bass energy
> (A Jaco Pastorius album, for example). You find the place where
> the bass sounds right, where it is loud but not too boomy.
>
> And then you put the subwoofer at the point where it sounded good.
> Rule of Symmetry doesn't always hold in this case, but it's surprisingly
> effective and it doesn't take a lot of work.
Friggin' brilliant Scott !
I'm gonna try this at a clients room tomorrow.
John
--
the little house that rocks
www.blackcabin.com
931-358-0114
"If a wire goes into it, there's a $50 controller for it!" - S.N.Wight -
NICHT_sch...@bright.net
(Frank Kennedy) wrote:
>This'll need to be *big*. Normal PA subs generally crap out below
>60Hz, even big ones. Could be an interesting constuction project!
>
Anyone actually HEARD one of Bob Carver's SUBs ?
Frank kennedy
wrote:
> Anyone actually HEARD one of Bob Carver's SUBs ?
Don't forget this has to mate with the existing 3 way 15" system. The
Sunfire won't be able to do it.
>
>www.sunfire.com
>
>
Bill Roberts
Frank kennedy wrote:
> Don't forget this has to mate with the existing 3 way 15" system. The
> Sunfire won't be able to do it.
Why is that? I don't follow.
-- Bill
NICHT_sch...@bright.net
(Frank kennedy) wrote:
>On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 17:25:09 GMT, NICHT_sch...@bright.net
>wrote:
>
>> Anyone actually HEARD one of Bob Carver's SUBs ?
>
>Don't forget this has to mate with the existing......
>
Of course...
>... 3 way 15" system.
>The Sunfire won't be able to do it.
>
?????
John Halliburton
The relative efficiency of the 3 way 15" system vs. the amount of air
movementrequired by a subwoofer to match to them is very great. A 15"
driver will have
an approximate area of 144 sq.in., and an 8" driver only around 40 sq. in.
Add
approximately another 40 sq. in. for the passive radiator on the Sunfire,
and you
still have almost a 2:1 ratio here. Now, I know the Sunfire driver and
passive
have considerable excursion capability, but they have a much harder job of
producing linear output. Take a high quality 15" or 18" for bass where
excursion
can range from .375" to 1.0", and other parameters such as the falling
sensitivity
of hearing at lower frequencies, and you can see that a sunfire is just not
a good
match in this situation. Bass is about moving a lot of air, the cleaner
the better.
The Servodrive mechanism is capable of 144(2) x 1.0" of displaced volume,
or
288 cu in.. The 2X factor is due to the dual cone drive setup of the
rotary to linear
arms attached to the motor. Compare this to a 15" driver with .375"
excursion, the displaced volume
is only 51 cu in. Compare this to an 8" cone with 1" excursion, where the
displaced
volume is 38 cu in.
Hope that helped,
John
Bill Roberts
John Halliburton wrote:
>
> > Why is that? I don't follow.
>
> The relative efficiency of the 3 way 15" system vs. the amount of air
> movement required by a subwoofer to match to them is very great. A 15"
> driver will have an approximate area of 144 sq.in., and an 8" driver
> only around 40 sq. in. Add approximately another 40 sq. in. for the
> passive radiator on the Sunfire, and you still have almost a 2:1 ratio
> here. Now, I know the Sunfire driver and passive have considerable
> excursion capability, but they have a much harder job of producing linear
> output.
> Take a high quality 15" or 18" for bass where excursion
> can range from .375" to 1.0", and other parameters such as the falling
> sensitivity of hearing at lower frequencies, and you can see that a sunfire
> is just not a good match in this situation.
Actually, I can't see it just from the argumentation.
A testimony from someone who had heard it would mean more.
> Bass is about moving a lot of air, the cleaner the better.
> The Servodrive mechanism is capable of 144(2) x 1.0" of displaced
> volume, or 288 cu in.. The 2X factor is due to the dual cone drive
> setup of the rotary to linear arms attached to the motor. Compare
> this to a 15" driver with .375" excursion, the displaced volume
> is only 51 cu in. Compare this to an 8" cone with 1" excursion,
> where the displaced volume is 38 cu in.
However the displaced volume of the Sunfire Signature is 360
cubic inches, more actually than the Contrabass. So if you are
arguing in theory only, you lost. An argument that Carver
is overrating this because you don't think the excursion
is good past one inch would seem to require actually having
heard the thing to substantiate that it doesn't sound good.
If you are arguing on the basis of having heard them, well,
I have no idea which of the two is better for a control
room subwoofer, and really think someone ought to have
heard both before insisting the Sunfire can't do the job.
116 dB SPL, and +0, -3 db from 16 Hz to 100 Hz are not
bad specs, and Bob Carver is not known for making gear
that performs beneath what its specs would imply. I'd say
the thing has to be heard before being dissed.
-- Bill
DanHarr
better coherence with my Dynaudio mains, I really like the Sunfire. I keep
the xover freq @ approx. 50hz, and keep the output low. Since it has 2"
peak to peak excursion capability and I don't want it covering much range,
I think it does about as well as one might expect a sub to... And you can't
beat the tiny size!
Fletcher
> Bob Carver is not known for making gear
> that performs beneath what its specs would imply. I'd say
> the thing has to be heard before being dissed.
>
> -- Bill
Bill, I have to say that while Carver stuff may indeed perform to
"spec", after years of living with that 22lb. 2 RU 10 Billion watt
amplifier [I think it was called the 2.1 or somethng similar] that every
SR company in the world used for about 3 weeks to save truck space...I
say we start dissing Carver now and avoid the rush.
If the any of their other stuff sounds nearly as terrible as that
amplifier, I say we slowly peel the skin off his back and throw him in a
a salt mine.
Max Trax
>leave me a tad cold. I too tried years back to use this "magnetic
>power field" lightweight amps in a system using AR9's. Over a one
>month period 4 of his amps went sour.
I have had many Carver Magnetic Field amps, and have never had any problems
with any of them, go figure. I do use 2 Hafler P7000 now and I could not even
believe the difference, in how much better they sounded than the Carvers. They
are less power, yet much louder, and cleaner at louder levels, aside from the
fact that they just sound better all together.
Haven't heard the Sunfire.
Paul
Max Trax Studios
227 Quail St.
Albany,NY 12203
http://www.maxtraxstudios.com
Bill Roberts
Fletcher wrote:
> Bill Roberts wrote:
> > Bob Carver is not known for making gear
> > that performs beneath what its specs would imply. I'd say
> > the thing has to be heard before being dissed.
> Bill, I have to say that while Carver stuff may indeed perform to
> "spec", after years of living with that 22lb. 2 RU 10 Billion watt
> amplifier [I think it was called the 2.1 or somethng similar] that every
> SR company in the world used for about 3 weeks to save truck space...I
> say we start dissing Carver now and avoid the rush.
>
> If the any of their other stuff sounds nearly as terrible as that
> amplifier, I say we slowly peel the skin off his back and throw him in a
> a salt mine.
Oops!
I've never heard their stuff in a pro application. I have
heard the Sunfire amp in a home "audiopile" application
and it was obviously a good amp. I wasn't aware that this
previous item (by the old company) or others had proven
themselves as trash, though certainly I always expected
that the old company's stuff like the "Sonic Holography
Generator" had to be crap. Hey, if the mixer or mastering
engineer had wanted more L-R, he could have put it in there
himself, after all.
-- Bill
Bill Roberts
Richard Norman wrote:
> Bill Roberts wrote:
>
> > and Bob Carver is not known for making gear
> > that performs beneath what its specs would imply.
>
> The Sunfire sub claims to have a 2700 Watt RMS amp, and a 6 amp fuse.
> Something doesn't quite add up right. :-)
>
> > I'd say
> > the thing has to be heard before being dissed.
>
> This thing has been discussed on r.a.h.e. before- the vibe over there
> was that it has very high levels of distortion compared to others in the
> same price range. Atlanta Digital Jay has recommended the REL Stadium
> II sub- it could be worth a look. I've heard a Paradigm sub that I
> didn't even know was there- I just thought the mains went lower than
> they really did. I gather that's the sign of a well-integrated system.
> YMMV.
Thanks! Those are much better arguments (based on people having
heard it) than just arguing in theory using a non-actual figure
for displacement. Now I will know not to waste my time, which
potentially I might have some day.
-- Bill
John Halliburton
> cubic inches, more actually than the Contrabass. So if you are
The Sunfire uses a passive radiator, which in spite of the hand done drawings at
sunfire.com,do not work in tandem over the bandwidth. I haven't even begun to
talk about the
two 18" passive radiators on a Contrabass. Also, there are no T/S parameters or
large
signal parameters given about the Sunfire. The statement:
> Theoretically, the Sunfire True Subwoofer can displace 251 cubic inches of air. How does
> it do it? Small bore, very large stroke. The effective diameter of its piston is 8.0 inches. Its
> excursion is two and a half inches. So, (Pi r2) times 2.5 inches times two (there are two
> drivers in the box) yields 251 cubic inches of air displacement which is about the same as
> three or four (depending on their excursion) 15 inch drivers operating in a cabinet the size
> of a small refrigerator.
>
seems fine as far as math, but the 2.5" figure can be taken to mean the absolute
maximum excursion, not linear
limit(ie., "Xmax" by T/S definition). Again too, note that he implies that the
cones of the Sunfire are
operating in tandem, which is just not the case. The dual 15" drive cones of a
Servodrive are, as they
are connected to the motor via the arm assembly. Now, if we consider that the
twin 18" passives
on the Contrabass are performing most of the work at the low end cutoff point,
then we can
calculate their volume displacement at:
Where:
16.5" = effective diameter of each passive
1.5" = xmax of each passive
3.14[(8.25)*2]= 213 sq.in. eff area(double this as there are two); so 426(1.5"
xmax) equals 641 cu.in.!!
> An argument that Carver
> is overrating this because you don't think the excursion
> is good past one inch would seem to require actually having
> heard the thing to substantiate that it doesn't sound good.
>
> If you are arguing on the basis of having heard them, well,
> I have no idea which of the two is better for a control
> room subwoofer, and really think someone ought to have
> heard both before insisting the Sunfire can't do the job.
> 116 dB SPL, and +0, -3 db from 16 Hz to 100 Hz are not
> bad specs, and Bob Carver is not known for making gear
> that performs beneath what its specs would imply. I'd say
> the thing has to be heard before being dissed.
Both valid points, but I'll take my chances. I have customers who have, and
who's commentsI trust. The Contrabass and Basstech 7 Servodrive subs
benefit too from a lack of nonlinear distortion from the motor motion. The
magnetic
gap is always the same, regardless of cone position. Something Sunfire and any
other
voice coil driven cone can not say. Carver does not indicate distortion figures
except to say
they are low. Also, the Contrabass will produce 114db at 16hz with 200watts
input(AES spec.
test, pink noise; 24 hours continous), and still be below 1% THD distortion, and
still have a +3db
spl peak headroom. I will concede the size issue, although the Contrabass is
still not large for
what it does.
Best Regards
John
Bill Roberts
-- Bill
--
"Theophylline like...sucks and stuff and I don't like stuff that
sucks. Well, I like chicks that suck... heh heh heh...heh heh heh..."
- Indiana Jones, commenting on the new Adipokinetix
Richard Norman
> and Bob Carver is not known for making gear
> that performs beneath what its specs would imply.
The Sunfire sub claims to have a 2700 Watt RMS amp, and a 6 amp fuse.
Something doesn't quite add up right. :-)
> I'd say
> the thing has to be heard before being dissed.
This thing has been discussed on r.a.h.e. before- the vibe over there
was that it has very high levels of distortion compared to others in the
same price range. Atlanta Digital Jay has recommended the REL Stadium
II sub- it could be worth a look. I've heard a Paradigm sub that I
didn't even know was there- I just thought the mains went lower than
they really did. I gather that's the sign of a well-integrated system.
YMMV.
Richard Norman
--
"All a poet can do today is warn."
-Wilford Owen
Scott Dorsey
>> I'd say
>> the thing has to be heard before being dissed.
>
>This thing has been discussed on r.a.h.e. before- the vibe over there
>was that it has very high levels of distortion compared to others in the
>same price range. Atlanta Digital Jay has recommended the REL Stadium
>II sub- it could be worth a look. I've heard a Paradigm sub that I
>didn't even know was there- I just thought the mains went lower than
>they really did. I gather that's the sign of a well-integrated system.
>YMMV.
I've used it, and it does have very high levels of distortion compared
with similar boxes, but it also has a hell of a high maximum output
level, and it's very small.
The REL is definitely better sounding, the Hsu Research is definitely
better sounding, and the ServoDrive is hard to beat in any way at all.
They are all, however, a lot larger than the Sunfire.
The Sunfire box compromises sound quality for size. It's brought to
you by the same folks who have compromised sound quality for size and
weight for ages. But if you need to make that compromise, it might
be the box you want.
--scott
Richard Norman
>
> The REL is definitely better sounding, the Hsu Research is definitely
> better sounding, and the ServoDrive is hard to beat in any way at all.
> They are all, however, a lot larger than the Sunfire.
What about M + K? Some of their small units sounded pretty good to me,
although I doubt they have enough output for real monitoring work. I've
not yet heard their bigger units, although they seem to have a good
reputation for surround work.
hank alrich
> Friggin' brilliant Scott !
> I'm gonna try this at a clients room tomorrow.
"Yaoh, well oKay, what evah, john, whaddafuck you crawlin' aroun' duh
floar lak thet, enywhey?"
--
hank - secret mountain
Note: the rec.audio.pro FAQ is at http://recordist.com/rap-faq/current
Read it and reap!
hank alrich
> Frank kennedy wrote:
>
> > Don't forget this has to mate with the existing 3 way 15" system. The
> > Sunfire won't be able to do it.
>
> Why is that? I don't follow.
'Cause Frank's being cheapo on us. All we need is a dozen Sunfires. Or
two.
Scott Dorsey
>
>Both valid points, but I'll take my chances. I have customers who have, and
>who's commentsI trust. The Contrabass and Basstech 7 Servodrive subs
>benefit too from a lack of nonlinear distortion from the motor motion. The
>magnetic
>gap is always the same, regardless of cone position. Something Sunfire and any
>other
>voice coil driven cone can not say.
Right. But the Sunfire uses position sensing and negative feedback in order
to linearize the driver. It's a Bob Carver trick, and like most Carver
tricks, it works pretty well but has some bizarre side-effects.
Bill Roberts
hank alrich wrote:
> Bill Roberts <wrob...@grove.ufl.edu> wrote:
>
> > Frank kennedy wrote:
> >
> > > Don't forget this has to mate with the existing 3 way 15" system. The
> > > Sunfire won't be able to do it.
> >
> > Why is that? I don't follow.
>
> 'Cause Frank's being cheapo on us. All we need is a dozen Sunfires. Or
> two.
Well, based on the further information posted, I see that
the problem is with the quality of the Sunfire, not the
quantity. I was not following why the Sunfire could not
(given its claimed specs if true) produce an output that
would "mate" with the existing system level-wise.
-- Bill
John Halliburton
> to linearize the driver.
Can it actually compensate for the limits of the voice coil's excursion? I just
havetrouble seeing that it could overcome the nonlinearity of a huge coil moving
past the
point of optimum gap strength. As you suggest, it probably has some weird side
effects.
Here are some comments from Tom Danley on the Sunfire and the white paper on it:
John,
It is possible that Bill has not seen the measurements and technical articles which
rebuke many of the claims made in the "white paper" and does not realize that many
of them are physically impossible.
In bench testing for example, the largest amount of power the unit draws from the
wall outlet was just short of 400 watts while the "white paper" talked of powers up
to 2700 watts as I recall. (only 1875 watts can be supplied by
a normal outlet).
If Carver has a scheme for producing more power than is consumed, he has a real
invention on his hands. Rather I suspect, like the other products they make, they
are limited in the real world operation once they leave the
"special" conditions in his lab where the claims are generated..
One might also ask how hot would the voice coil be on an 8" driver-
driven with 2700 watts?, hot enough to give off a bright light I would bet.
Also Bill said "116 dB SPL, and +0, -3 db from 16 Hz to 100 Hz are not
bad specs". No they are not bad spec's, but then again those are nothing like the
the spec's independent reviewers have measured from the product.
One free field measurement I saw shows the response as a maximum of about
109 dB at 30 HZ and falling below that frequency..
Using a dedicated amplifier does potentially free one from the normal T&S tuning
relationships which govern a normal voltage driven speaker, but it does not free one
from the connection between the displacement and the sound
level produced.
Consider the unit has one 8" driver and one 10" passive radiator, a quick diversion
to mathcad to see
what really is needed to produce 113 dB @ 16 HZ @ 1 meter shows that to produce that
intensity
requires the total cone area (8" and 10") to move 8" peak to peak.!!!
This of course is many times what it can actually move AND in real life, at the low
cutoff, only the passive has large excursion.
No matter how the "white paper" puts it the drivers cannot displace more air than is
contained in the enclosure and generally one is limited to something like 10% of the
box volume.
If one were to say "Okay, how much sound could one produce with realistic excursions
at 16 HZ?" one gets a different answer.
Assume that the passive can travel 1.5 inches p/p and the driven cone has a similar
rating (I have samples of the large foam roll suspension and would guess this is the
max safe excursion). Remember in real life, at the low
cutoff there is little motion on the driven radiator, BUT, in this case we are
assuming it is traveling as far as the passive.
The maximum sound level based on the possible displacement would be 98 dB.
Taking the maximum displacement for the contra's pair of 18" passives (1.625" pp)
and the pair of 15" radiators (1.25" pp), one gets a predicted spl of 115 dB.
The Contra Bass has been measured by others many times and actually does produce 114
dB @ 16 HZ with 200 watts input. It does produce more than 40 times the acoustic
energy at 16 HZ even using conservative measurements for the
contra and the most optimistic estimate for the sunfire.
Which one is better? its like asking what pair of pants is best. The Sunfire is
very small, in the situations where that is the overriding concern, it is a good
bet.
To compare it to a Contra Bass is absurd, like comparing a bumble bee to a B-1b,
they are rather different.
Tom Danley
Servodrive inc / Sound Physics Labs
www.servodrive.com
Bill Roberts
John Halliburton wrote:
Consider me corrected! :)
And I really should have known, I admit. After all, one cannot
buy just a quality amp (forget the subwoofer, just the amp!) of
the claimed wattage for the price of the Sunfire.
I should have realized, Something scwewy's going on awound heah.
-- Bill
Jon Best
Scott Dorsey wrote:
> rap
and then
> musicians
Right next to each other! :)
No offense.......
Jon Best
Sales Weasel From Mars
Scott Dorsey
John Halliburton <byk...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>> Right. But the Sunfire uses position sensing and negative feedback in order
>> to linearize the driver.
>
>Can it actually compensate for the limits of the voice coil's excursion? I just
>havetrouble seeing that it could overcome the nonlinearity of a huge coil moving
>past the
>point of optimum gap strength. As you suggest, it probably has some weird side
>effects.
No, but it can extend the linear region substantally, and the amount of
power that it can sink into the voice coil means that it can move the coil
pretty far out, even though the magnetic flux out there is pretty low. It
still can't move the thing past the physical stop, of course.
>Here are some comments from Tom Danley on the Sunfire and the white paper on it:
>
>In bench testing for example, the largest amount of power the unit draws from the
>wall outlet was just short of 400 watts while the "white paper" talked of powers up
>to 2700 watts as I recall. (only 1875 watts can be supplied by
>a normal outlet).
>If Carver has a scheme for producing more power than is consumed, he has a real
>invention on his hands. Rather I suspect, like the other products they make, they
>are limited in the real world operation once they leave the
>"special" conditions in his lab where the claims are generated..
This kind of thing is typical of Carver power specifications. Check the
specs on any of their magnetic field amplifiers and you'll find similar
foolishness.
In general, Carver specs are not to be trusted. And I am not claiming
that the Sunfire is the most amazing box in the world, just that it's
a cheap, portable box, that would make rap musicians happy. It does
go pretty low at low power levels, and it gets pretty loud at kick
drum frequencies. I would like to see real measurements made on the
thing.
soun...@ix.netcom.com
wrote:
>I have to add a sub-woofer to a client's room...I hate fuckin'
>sub-woofers, they're invariably a time smear nightmare of the
>apocalypse. Main monitors are custom Wright's with Yamaha 2700
>amps...they're a 15" co-ax with proprietary tweeter, passive crossover,
>extra 15" sub all in one cabinet.
My experience is with subs that require diesel trucks to move, so you
probably don't want my recommendations for the driver/box, but do
everyone involved with the project a BIG favor and insist that the
client springs for a BSS Omni-drive instead of using a regular
crossover. The Omni has adjustable *everything* (including slope, Q,
delay, phase, etc) and can save dozens of different configurations
(password protected too), so that when they want to ditch the sub, a
couple of button presses will bring the system back to "full-range
box" mode.
Patrick Callahan
soun...@themothership.net
www.themothership.net
Fletcher
> do
> everyone involved with the project a BIG favor and insist that the
> client springs for a BSS Omni-drive instead of using a regular
> crossover. The Omni has adjustable *everything* (including slope, Q,
> delay, phase, etc) and can save dozens of different configurations
> (password protected too), so that when they want to ditch the sub, a
> couple of button presses will bring the system back to "full-range
> box" mode.
>
> Patrick Callahan
> soun...@themothership.net
> www.themothership.net
When it 'brings the system back to "full-range box" mode', is it a
complete "hardwire" bypass? The rest of the system sounds fine...this
is to be an 'add-on' unit for the tracking process only. The system
will not require additional crossovers to what exists when the 'Sub' is
not in use.
john/blackcabin
>
> john/blackcabin <roc...@blackcabin.com> wrote:
>
> > Friggin' brilliant Scott !
> > I'm gonna try this at a clients room tomorrow.
>
> "Yaoh, well oKay, what evah, john, whaddafuck you crawlin' aroun' duh
> floar lak thet, enywhey?"
Hank,
Just looking for the 22Hz I lost when I dropped the 3db.
John
--
the little house that rocks
www.blackcabin.com
931-358-0114
"If a wire goes into it, there's a $50 controller for it!" - S.N.Wight -
Frank kennedy
wrote:
>When it 'brings the system back to "full-range box" mode', is it a
>complete "hardwire" bypass? The rest of the system sounds fine...this
>is to be an 'add-on' unit for the tracking process only. The system
>will not require additional crossovers to what exists when the 'Sub' is
>not in use.
The BSS is the coolest crossover I've ever used. It can't to a
hardwire bypass, but you can make a preset that doesn't do anything.
It would be a ton of wasted potential, but you would never want for
better. The preset scheme is ideally suited for use with different PA
configurations. $4000 if you're lucky.
Frank kennedy
clever fiction)
If it actually worked like an 18" cone, you'd see touring companies
with mini-vans instead of semis.
Here's an analogy. Throw a pebble as hard as you want, and it will
never make a big wave. The water, like air on a cone, simply wraps
right around it because the displacement is too small. To make a big
wave, you need a big rock that gives the water no where else to go.
On Fri, 08 Oct 1999 01:44:23 -0400, Bill Roberts
<wrob...@grove.ufl.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Frank kennedy wrote:
>
>> Don't forget this has to mate with the existing 3 way 15" system. The
>> Sunfire won't be able to do it.
>
>Why is that? I don't follow.
>
>-- Bill