I give up
Jacqueline Passey
I got a lot of replies to my post "Asking Women Out." Most of them were
either A) guys asking me out who lived on the other side of the country,
B) guys saying they would ask me out if they didn't live on the other
side of the country, C) advice that I should try asking guys out.
Guys on the other side of the country do me no good! I have already been
corresponding with one for months, who I have been considering a
relationship with, except he is twice my age and can't move because of
his job. I love the Pacific Northwest! I like Bellingham! There
are a lot of people in Bellingham, why can't I find just ONE guy who
shares some interests with me and ISN'T old enough to be my father?
Also, I HAVE asked guys out! Lots of times! That's the only reason I've
had the relationships I've had! And I >HATE< having to ask people out!
Now I'm not saying this is right for everyone, so don't flame me for
being non PC, but I am traditional in my ideas of courting, I think it
should be the man's responsibility to pursue the woman, and two people
shouldn't have sex unless they are in love. When I was younger I chased
men, had to PERSUADE them to go on a date with me, and pretty much put
out to get a second date. Many times I relationship eventually developed
but it always bothered me that it probably wouldn't if I hadn't had sex
with him. Well I'm SICK of that, just because you're interested in me
doesn't mean I have to have sex with you, I have to love you, and you
have to PROVE you love me, before I'll even consider it again!
Please don't send email replies. I have been getting dozens of emails a
day from my previous posting and I can't keep up. If you have any
CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions (not a "If you lived in Massachusettes I'd ask
you out" reply) go ahead and POST them here and I will see them
eventually. But I have even have someone I know off the Internet who is
spying on me or something, because he's been reading all the newsgroups I
participate in and send me email saying I was a lying bitch because a) I
was somehow supposed to know he was trying to court me when he was very
unclear about it, I thought we were just friends, b) I had no idea he
would WANT to date me considering we live in not only different cities
but different COUNTRIES, and he's MUCH older then me, and c) he really
took offense when my response to him trying to get fresh with me was to
move his hands off of my intimate body parts, as politely as I could,
instead of slapping him as his actions warranted.
What is it with men that if THEY want to have sex with ME, if I don't
"put out" right away I'm some sort of bitch! I even got this last night
at a party I went to, I was mildly flirting with this guy, everyone at
the party was flirting with each other, and he took it as free license to
pin me up against a wall and try to feel me up, then got deeply offended
when I wriggled out of his grasp. Shit, I didn't scream "rape" or kick
him or anything, even though he was being very forceful. I just escaped,
told him I wasn't in the mood, and left the party. I was starting to
like him and wouldn't have minded just kissing, until he cornered me and
grabbed my breast.
I hate men.
I give up. I'm not going to even TRY to date anymore. I'm not going to
worry about it, I'm just going to go and do whatever I want and if a guy
so much as talks to me I'll tell him right off the bat that I am Not
Interested in dating whatsoever so he doesn't send me screaming emails
later about how I'm a manipulative bitch, since I can't telepathically
know which guys are interested and which aren't. Or maybe I'll put a
personal ad in "Women to Women" and try being a lesbian for a while.
Maybe women aren't as infuriating and confusing. I haven't decided yet.
Jacqueline Passey j...@az.com http://www.az.com/~jmp Bellingham, WA
"It won't give up it wants me dead goddamn this noise inside my head." -NIN
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
| to those of us who feel alone. No flames, ads, tests or personals please. |
| Send mail to ssl-r...@netsoc.org.nz to contact the moderators directly |
| The SSL homepage is on the Web at http://www.point-2-point.com/ssl/ |
William J. Spiropoulos
In article <Pine.BSF.3.91.960907...@anna.az.com>,
Jacqueline Passey <j...@az.com> wrote:
> I got a lot of replies to my post "Asking Women Out." Most of them were
> either A) guys asking me out who lived on the other side of the country,
> B) guys saying they would ask me out if they didn't live on the other
> side of the country, C) advice that I should try asking guys out.
I hope that I wasn't one of them. :)
>
> Guys on the other side of the country do me no good!... There
> are a lot of people in Bellingham, why can't I find just ONE guy who
> shares some interests with me and ISN'T old enough to be my father?
Yeah, that sounds familiar. They're either tied up in relationships
already, they're too quiet to make themselves known to you, or they don't
feel the same about you. I know you must think I have some nerve to be
giving you advice on this, since I'm struggling with the same problem. But
that's the only thing I can think of.
>
> Also, I HAVE asked guys out! Lots of times! That's the only reason I've
> had the relationships I've had! And I >HATE< having to ask people out!
I agree.
> I think it should be the man's responsibility to pursue the woman, and
two people
> shouldn't have sex unless they are in love.
It depends on how in love a couple are. I know that a lot of relationships
these days are really only socially-acceptable excuses to get
laid---marriages especially, as evidenced by how many marriages these days
fail due to sexual dysfunctions. I see very few relationships that are
based on a real, mutual affection that you or I would call "love." But
they are possible. A couple should have sex is they feel like they're BOTH
ready for it.
> When I was younger I chased
> men, had to PERSUADE them to go on a date with me, and pretty much put
> out to get a second date. Many times I relationship eventually developed
> but it always bothered me that it probably wouldn't if I hadn't had sex
> with him.
There are too many assholes in the world like you just described. I know
too many dudes like that. I hope you don't think all guys are like that.
Otherwise, we're both screwed (no pun).
> I hate men.
Please don't. I get very bitter at women in general sometimes for ignoring
me for so long, but that's only when I'm in a particularly dark mood. When
I come back to my senses, I realize that women aren't innately mean or
anything. It's just that relationships are a really difficult thing for
anyone, but some people seem to know the game better than others. I don't
hate you, so please don't hate me. I can assure you that I wouldn't treat
you like such shit if I knew you personally.
> I give up. I'm not going to even TRY to date anymore. I'm not going to
> worry about it, I'm just going to go and do whatever I want and if a guy
> so much as talks to me I'll tell him right off the bat that I am Not
> Interested in dating whatsoever so he doesn't send me screaming emails
> later about how I'm a manipulative bitch, since I can't telepathically
> know which guys are interested and which aren't. Or maybe I'll put a
> personal ad in "Women to Women" and try being a lesbian for a while.
> Maybe women aren't as infuriating and confusing. I haven't decided yet.
Maybe you need some time off from trying to attract a guy, to sort
yourself out or whatever. But please don't feel like you have to do
something that would be unnatural for you. Unless you're innately
attracted to women and have been fooling yourself into thinking you were
straight all along, I wouldn't *consciously* try to be a a lesbian or a
bi, you'll probably end up feeling even more confused. And whatever you
do, don't give up on men in general. There are some of us who aren't
assholes.
I hope some of this makes sense to you, and that you're able to work
through this. Please e-mail me if you care to discuss this further...
Billy S.
I. Mannix
I am traditional in my ideas of courting, I think it
>should be the man's responsibility to pursue the woman, and two people
>shouldn't have sex unless they are in love. When I was younger I chased
>men, had to PERSUADE them to go on a date with me, and pretty much put
>out to get a second date. Many times I relationship eventually developed
>but it always bothered me that it probably wouldn't if I hadn't had sex
>with him. Well I'm SICK of that, just because you're interested in me
>doesn't mean I have to have sex with you, I have to love you, and you
>have to PROVE you love me, before I'll even consider it again!
A novel concept.
>
>Please don't send email replies.
OK!
>What is it with men that if THEY want to have sex with ME, if I don't
>"put out" right away I'm some sort of bitch! I even got this last night
>at a party I went to, I was mildly flirting with this guy, everyone at
>the party was flirting with each other, and he took it as free license to
>pin me up against a wall and try to feel me up, then got deeply offended
>when I wriggled out of his grasp. Shit, I didn't scream "rape" or kick
>him or anything, even though he was being very forceful. I just escaped,
>told him I wasn't in the mood, and left the party. I was starting to
>like him and wouldn't have minded just kissing, until he cornered me and
>grabbed my breast.
>
>I hate men.
I do too, it seems as though a lot of them screw it up for the rest of us
(who could'nt imagine occupying one's personal space at a party......). I
don't blame you.
Or maybe I'll put a
>personal ad in "Women to Women" and try being a lesbian for a while.
>Maybe women aren't as infuriating and confusing. I haven't decided yet.
Maybe women are not as confusing (they don't infuriate me, but they sure
as hell confuse me). We can't telepathically know which women are
interested, and when they act the slightest bit interested, we seem to
take that interest to different levels - trying to date someone who wants
to be "a friend" or something similar to what happened at the party.
Celibacy is the only answer IMHO. Maybe being a woman, you'd be able to
figure out another woman better - don't know. OK, I'll shut up, sorry you
have gotten a bunch of inane email from desperate idiots just because you
try to help out in the group. It is a shame.
Mannix
Keith Wood
[Maybe women aren't as infuriating and confusing. I haven't decided yet.
I have. You are. ;)
BTW, I think your plan to back off of men is a good idea. You might
even pull it off, but I hope not. This is the sort of resolution
that's more fun to sometimes break!
Mirtika
Billy writes <<I see very few relationships that are
based on a real, mutual affection that you or I would call "love." But
they are possible.>>
They most certainly are possible! I and all my siblings have experience
no divorce. We are in fulfilling, loving marriages, ranging from 31 years
to 13 years in duration. So do not, DO NOT, lose heart.
Maybe you all should come down to warm Miami. : >
Mir in Miami
Love can heal when truth is found.
Mirtika
Celibacy may not be the only answer, but certainly, for someone like
Jacqueline, who feels as if she's been "putting out" just to have male
companionship, or for someone who feels used, then celibacy is definitely
AN answer.
Certainly, if you aren't "putting out" and the person is treating you well
and keeps asking you out, the conclusion one arrives at is: "He likes me!
He really likes me!" : >'
Mannix: Good point about how the creeps ruin it for other guys. Here
Jacqueline is assuming that ALL guys act like the quasi-rapist at the
party, which is clearly untrue. BTW: What exactly confuses you about
women?
I still wish you luck, Jacqueline, you and all the lonely and hurt one.
Gregory Nalbandian
Jacqueline Passey (j...@az.com) wrote:
: I got a lot of replies to my post "Asking Women Out." Most of them were
: either A) guys asking me out who lived on the other side of the country,
: B) guys saying they would ask me out if they didn't live on the other
: side of the country, C) advice that I should try asking guys out.
What kind of responses were you expecting? You must have had the
foresight to know that lonely guys would jump all over the previous post.
: Also, I HAVE asked guys out! Lots of times! That's the only reason I've
: had the relationships I've had! And I >HATE< having to ask people out!
: Now I'm not saying this is right for everyone, so don't flame me for
: being non PC, but I am traditional in my ideas of courting, I think it
: should be the man's responsibility to pursue the woman,
Any particular REASON why?
: and two people
: shouldn't have sex unless they are in love.
I disagree. Casual sex is okay as long as both parties are willing and
neither stands the chance of getting emotionally hurt.
: When I was younger I chased
: men, had to PERSUADE them to go on a date with me, and pretty much put
: out to get a second date.
Sounds like your own insecurities (not their rejection of you) led to this
behavior. I have a hard time imagining ALL of the guys you've dated
saying--subtley or with body language--"If you don't 'put out', there will
be no second date."
: Many times I relationship eventually developed
: but it always bothered me that it probably wouldn't if I hadn't had sex
: with him. Well I'm SICK of that, just because you're interested in me
: doesn't mean I have to have sex with you, I have to love you, and you
: have to PROVE you love me, before I'll even consider it again!
This is good.
: If you have any
: CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions (not a "If you lived in Massachusettes I'd ask
: you out" reply) go ahead and POST them here and I will see them
: eventually.
Having never asked a woman out myself, I cannot offer any technique that
will motivate the man to initiate. My guess is that you have done quite a
bit of flirting only to be unsuccessful. I don't mean to be an asshole,
but there could be a few reasons for this:
1. Men don't find you attractive
2. Your body language and gestures--while you intend them to convey "Come
get me big boy"--may actually be confusing to men. In other words,
some women know how to flirt, and others don't. Physical contact is a
sure fire way to get a man's attention. Try little things like the
shoulder tap, arm tap, and the hand tap. I know it sounds ridiculous
but, one girl did these things to me and it definitely got my
attention.
3. You are so attractive that men automatically assume you are taken.
Also, asking men about their personal lives will show them that you are
interested, possibly prompting them to ask you out.
But I have even have someone I know off the Internet who is
: spying on me or something, because he's been reading all the newsgroups I
: participate in and send me email saying I was a lying bitch because a) I
: was somehow supposed to know he was trying to court me when he was very
: unclear about it, I thought we were just friends, b) I had no idea he
: would WANT to date me considering we live in not only different cities
: but different COUNTRIES, and he's MUCH older then me, and c) he really
: took offense when my response to him trying to get fresh with me was to
: move his hands off of my intimate body parts, as politely as I could,
: instead of slapping him as his actions warranted.
Sounds like a freak to me! Be careful.
: What is it with men that if THEY want to have sex with ME, if I don't
: "put out" right away I'm some sort of bitch!
Not all men are like that........Hell, some guys aren't even expecting a
woman to "put out" on the first few dates or even the first few months. I
think you are attracted to the wrong kind of men (you know, the bad ones).
I even got this last night
: at a party I went to, I was mildly flirting with this guy, everyone at
: the party was flirting with each other, and he took it as free license to
: pin me up against a wall and try to feel me up, then got deeply offended
: when I wriggled out of his grasp. Shit, I didn't scream "rape" or kick
: him or anything, even though he was being very forceful. I just escaped,
: told him I wasn't in the mood, and left the party. I was starting to
: like him and wouldn't have minded just kissing, until he cornered me and
: grabbed my breast.
Sounds like a real asshole.
: I hate men.
No you don't. You hate assholes, which seems to be the type you find
attractive.
: I give up. I'm not going to even TRY to date anymore. I'm not going to
: worry about it, I'm just going to go and do whatever I want and if a guy
: so much as talks to me I'll tell him right off the bat that I am Not
: Interested in dating whatsoever so he doesn't send me screaming emails
: later about how I'm a manipulative bitch, since I can't telepathically
: know which guys are interested and which aren't. Or maybe I'll put a
: personal ad in "Women to Women" and try being a lesbian for a while.
: Maybe women aren't as infuriating and confusing. I haven't decided yet.
You know you don't mean it Jac!! There are good men out there, hosest!
: Jacqueline Passey j...@az.com http://www.az.com/~jmp Bellingham, WA
Frank van der Hulst
Jacqueline Passey (j...@az.com) wrote:
: I got a lot of replies to my post "Asking Women Out." Most of them were
: B) guys saying they would ask me out if they didn't live on the other
: side of the country, C) advice that I should try asking guys out.
: Guys on the other side of the country do me no good!
Whooo... just as well *I* didn't reply then! :-)
Slightly more seriously, this isn't Washington.singles... it's not
particularly realistic to post to ssl and expect to get a date from
someone in Bellingham.
: corresponding with one for months, who I have been considering a
: relationship with, except he is twice my age and can't move because of
: his job. I love the Pacific Northwest! I like Bellingham! There
: being non PC, but I am traditional in my ideas of courting, I think it
: should be the man's responsibility to pursue the woman, and two people
: shouldn't have sex unless they are in love. When I was younger I chased
: doesn't mean I have to have sex with you, I have to love you, and you
: have to PROVE you love me, before I'll even consider it again!
: CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions (not a "If you lived in Massachusettes I'd ask
: you out" reply) go ahead and POST them here and I will see them
: eventually.
Trying to be constructive here... it seems you have lots of rules that
potential dates must comply with... must live in Pacific NW, pref. Bellingham,
must pursue you, no sex, must PROVE he loves you. [Question: how will you
prove you love him?] The more rules you impose on the list of potential
dates, the less that will match up.
Secondly, I *hate* this concept of "pursuit". It implies that it's all a
game... woman pretends to be coy, man must overcome her fake reservations,
etc. It seems a pretty dishonest way to start a relationship.
Thirdly, I was married to a woman who had rules like you seem to to run her
life, and which she insisted on imposing on me. It all got a bit much, and
perhaps I'm biassed, but people like that come across as "bossy".
: But I have even have someone I know off the Internet who is
: spying on me or something, because he's been reading all the newsgroups I
: participate in and send me email saying I was a lying bitch because a) I
: was somehow supposed to know he was trying to court me when he was very
: unclear about it, I thought we were just friends, b) I had no idea he
: would WANT to date me considering we live in not only different cities
: but different COUNTRIES, and he's MUCH older then me, and c) he really
: took offense when my response to him trying to get fresh with me was to
: move his hands off of my intimate body parts, as politely as I could,
: instead of slapping him as his actions warranted.
You lost me here a bit; here's my understanding: He was trying to court you,
and you didn't realise. He was in Bellingham (holiday, study?) but lives
in a different country. Whilst there, he touched your private parts. Since
then he's been following you round the Net.
Based on this, I comment: Here's a guy who *did* want to date you. When you
didn't respond to his signals, or maybe responded strangely to them, he
ran out of ideas and took a more direct approach. The fact that he's from
a different country doesn't mean he can't date you, does it? Perhaps he'd
like to move to Bellingham?
: What is it with men that if THEY want to have sex with ME, if I don't
: "put out" right away I'm some sort of bitch! I even got this last night
: at a party I went to, I was mildly flirting with this guy, everyone at
: the party was flirting with each other, and he took it as free license to
: pin me up against a wall and try to feel me up, then got deeply offended
: when I wriggled out of his grasp. Shit, I didn't scream "rape" or kick
: him or anything, even though he was being very forceful. I just escaped,
: told him I wasn't in the mood, and left the party. I was starting to
: like him and wouldn't have minded just kissing, until he cornered me and
: grabbed my breast.
Sounds like major communcation breakdown to me. He apparently thought that
either you wanted your breast squeezed, or that he could get away with it
if you didn't. If you flirt, you need to nevertheless make it quite clear
what your expectations are.
: I hate men.
Seems pretty unfair to me.
: I give up. I'm not going to even TRY to date anymore. I'm not going to
: worry about it, I'm just going to go and do whatever I want and if a guy
: so much as talks to me I'll tell him right off the bat that I am Not
: Interested in dating whatsoever so he doesn't send me screaming emails
: later about how I'm a manipulative bitch, since I can't telepathically
: know which guys are interested and which aren't. Or maybe I'll put a
: personal ad in "Women to Women" and try being a lesbian for a while.
Hey, guys can't telepathically know which women are interested and which
aren't. There's more bad news for you too: neither can lesbians. Maybe
there's less opportunity for misunderstanding between people of the same
sex though. Good luck.
: Maybe women aren't as infuriating and confusing. I haven't decided yet.
Nope, I think they're more infuriating and confusing. ;-}
Regards,
Frank.
PS: Before I get flamed as yet another guy like the two Jaqueline has
described -- I have never had a woman complain when I've touched her
initimately.
Hmmm, that doesn't sound quite right, but hopefully you'll get the drift.
--
fra...@kai.ee.cit.ac.nz Frank van der Hulst
This is my old account. For witty signature, etc
email me at fra...@pec.co.nz.
My home page is http://www.pec.co.nz/~frankv
Mirtika
I don't know if it was intentional or not, but your reply to Jacqueline
had me guffawing. : > FUNNY!
I do think she's just very hurt and speaking out of anger. She'll probably
realize she sounded extreme when she calms down. I mean, does she really
think she can just switch to liking women just like THAT???
The fact is, the guys who post on this newsgroup seem for the most part
exceedingly nice. Maybe she should buy a plane ticket and meet one! I
know if I were as lonely and desperate as she seems to be, I might be
tempted to meet someone who came across as gentle and kind and
intelligent. Who knows? Better than Mr. Groper. Better than just
suffering like she clearly is.
I wish her well, and you, and all the seekers.....
Later,
Mir
Love can heal when truth is found.
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
t...@delphi.com
Mirtika <mir...@aol.com> writes:
>The fact is, the guys who post on this newsgroup seem for the most part
>exceedingly nice. Maybe she should buy a plane ticket and meet one! I
anyway.
DogBoy
Jacqueline Passey
I wouldn't be switching to liking women just like that, I've always liked
women, I just haven't had any girlfriends because very few women share my
interests (computers, science fiction) and the ones I've met that do are
usually old enough to be my mother and weigh 400 pounds. The one I've
met that was my age and not severely overweight was a slut and had a feel
of greasy corruption to her. While I liked her fine as an acquaintance,
as I got to know her as a friend I became really turned off by her
blatant hendonism. Then she moved to the other side of the Atlantic Ocean.
So guys, I guess I've had about as much luck with women as the rest of
you. :)
Jacqueline Passey j...@az.com http://www.az.com/~jmp Bellingham, WA
"It won't give up it wants me dead goddamn this noise inside my head." -NIN
JJF
In article <Pine.BSF.3.91.960907...@anna.az.com>,
j...@az.com (Jacqueline Passey) wrote:
> I got a lot of replies to my post "Asking Women Out." Most of them were
> either A) guys asking me out who lived on the other side of the country,
> B) guys saying they would ask me out if they didn't live on the other
> side of the country, C) advice that I should try asking guys out.
>
> Guys on the other side of the country do me no good! I have already been
> corresponding with one for months, who I have been considering a
> relationship with, except he is twice my age and can't move because of
> his job. I love the Pacific Northwest! I like Bellingham! There
> are a lot of people in Bellingham, why can't I find just ONE guy who
> shares some interests with me and ISN'T old enough to be my father?
This may be a silly suggestion, but you might be better off trying a local
dating agency rather than a worldwide newsgroup...
> Also, I HAVE asked guys out! Lots of times! That's the only reason I've
> had the relationships I've had! And I >HATE< having to ask people out!
> Now I'm not saying this is right for everyone, so don't flame me for
> being non PC, but I am traditional in my ideas of courting, I think it
> should be the man's responsibility to pursue the woman, and two people
> shouldn't have sex unless they are in love. When I was younger I chased
> men, had to PERSUADE them to go on a date with me, and pretty much put
> out to get a second date. Many times I relationship eventually developed
> but it always bothered me that it probably wouldn't if I hadn't had sex
> with him.
If someone wants a relationship that's just sex, then that's fine, but if
you want something more you (probably) won't be able to "buy" it with sex.
It's a cliche, but if a guy really loves you then he won't mind waiting
(perhaps forever) for sex. IMHO, sex is at most a "peripheral" to love,
and the two shouldn't really be lumped together.
If you believe that two people shouldn't have sex unless they're in love,
then that's okay too. But have the courage of your convictions. Have you
stood by all your other (non-sexual) convictions before now? If not, that
may be why you're attracting the wrong kinds of guy...
In other words, if you want a guy who wants more than to get you into bed
then you'll have to offer more than your body. (Maybe you do anyway; I
don't know you, I only know what you've written.)
> Well I'm SICK of that, just because you're interested in me
> doesn't mean I have to have sex with you, I have to love you, and you
> have to PROVE you love me, before I'll even consider it again!
Whoa there - this is a road to eternal loneliness. What you're saying is
that you won't love a man unless he proves he loves you - there's two
problems with this. Firstly, if a man loves you but it appears that you
don't love him, then he's unlikely to stay around you for long. (Well, I
know I wouldn't. It'd be too painful). Thus, he'll never find out that
you're REALLY waiting for him to prove his love before you reciprocate.
And just how do you "prove" that you love someone, anyway?
> What is it with men that if THEY want to have sex with ME, if I don't
> "put out" right away I'm some sort of bitch! I even got this last night
> at a party I went to, I was mildly flirting with this guy, everyone at
> the party was flirting with each other, and he took it as free license to
> pin me up against a wall and try to feel me up, then got deeply offended
> when I wriggled out of his grasp. Shit, I didn't scream "rape" or kick
> him or anything, even though he was being very forceful. I just escaped,
> told him I wasn't in the mood, and left the party. I was starting to
> like him and wouldn't have minded just kissing, until he cornered me and
> grabbed my breast.
This guy sounds like a complete and utter ****, so you're probably best
off without him. However, (how can I put this) fondling of... certain
bodily areas is what some people DO in the early stages of "courting". Of
course, "no means no" and if you communicated your disapproval then he has
no reason to feel aggrieved.
There are (IMHO) too many men out there who are only after one thing, and
give a bad name to the rest of us.
> I hate men.
Hey - you've painted some very unflattering pictures of guys but don't take
these to be representative of our half of the human race! Some of us aren't
so bad.
> I give up. I'm not going to even TRY to date anymore. I'm not going to
> worry about it, I'm just going to go and do whatever I want and if a guy
> so much as talks to me I'll tell him right off the bat that I am Not
> Interested in dating whatsoever so he doesn't send me screaming emails
> later about how I'm a manipulative bitch, since I can't telepathically
> know which guys are interested and which aren't. Or maybe I'll put a
> personal ad in "Women to Women" and try being a lesbian for a while.
> Maybe women aren't as infuriating and confusing. I haven't decided yet.
Don't believe it.
Actually, by not "trying" to date you may have more success. It's possible
that you've been trying so hard to date that you've been giving off a
subconcious message that says "I'm free, I'm unattached, come over here
and get to know me intimately", thus attracting the wrong sort of guys.
Best of luck, anyway.
Mirtika
Hi, JJF,
Your recommendation about keeping to local dating agencies and local
personals (GACK! I have suspicions about THOSE!) is right on target. If
one isn't disposed to live out a long-distance romance or inclined to
flying out to meet someone (risky), then the only option left (aside from
moving) is to stick to the local BBS and local scenes.
You wrote:
<< However, (how can I put this) fondling of... certain
bodily areas is what some people DO in the early stages of "courting".>>
Well, yes, all right..true. But from her post, I was clearly under the
impression they had just met at some party, there was some flirtation,
and--PRESTO--groping ensues. Now, if you've just met someone, this does
not qualify as "courting" to me, or justification for groping (unless she
says, "Hey, go for it, Big Boy.")
Courting implies a certain honorable intent, with a certain amount of
talking and dating and getting to know one another, don't you think?
Maybe I"m just old-fashioned....
Mir in Miami
Love can heal when truth is found.
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
Jacqueline Passey
On 10 Sep 1996, Frank van der Hulst wrote:
> Slightly more seriously, this isn't Washington.singles... it's not
> particularly realistic to post to ssl and expect to get a date from
> someone in Bellingham.
I KNOW this isn't a personals newsgroup. I didn't WANT someone from
Bellingham to ask me out. I didn't want ANYONE to ask me out. If I did,
I would have posted in alt.personals. This is not alt.personals! This
is soc.support.loneliness! So why, when I post about my particular
circumstances leading to my loneliness, NO LESS THEN THIRTY-FOUR MEN
EMAIL ME ASKING ME OUT!
(by the way, if any of them read this: Stop emailing me. I don't have
the time or the inclination to reply. There's too much, it's all
pointless, I'm not even reading it anymore, I just automatically delete
it when it arrives in my box. If you think you have something important
to say THAT DOES NOT INVOLVE ASKING ME OUT, or saying, "Gee, if you lived
in Maryland I would ask you out" then POST IT here. Otherwise I won't
see it.)
> Trying to be constructive here... it seems you have lots of rules that
> potential dates must comply with... must live in Pacific NW, pref. Bellingham,
> must pursue you, no sex, must PROVE he loves you. [Question: how will you
> prove you love him?] The more rules you impose on the list of potential
> dates, the less that will match up.
So let's see, you're saying I should settle for a pointless long distance
relationship, or one where the guy takes me for granted, wants to do
nothing but fuck, and doesn't genuinely care about me because he's only
using me for sex? Well I guess I COULD have LOTS of boyfriends then.
Hey, while I'm at it, I should reconsider drug addicts and abusers. I'm
ruling out WAAAY too many potential dates there too!
> Secondly, I *hate* this concept of "pursuit". It implies that it's all a
> game... woman pretends to be coy, man must overcome her fake reservations,
> etc. It seems a pretty dishonest way to start a relationship.
"Fake" reservations? My reservations aren't faked. While I want a
boyfriend, I want one that gives a damn about me, not someone who will
take me for granted. Again. The concept of "pursuit" is the concept
that the guy will show a little EFFORT to start a relationship with me
for a change, instead of me doing all the work, being the considerate
one, instead of me always thinking about him, how he feels, him giving
something back, instead of just TAKING.
> Thirdly, I was married to a woman who had rules like you seem to to run her
> life, and which she insisted on imposing on me. It all got a bit much, and
> perhaps I'm biassed, but people like that come across as "bossy".
I don't have rules that run my life. I have standards that I judge
potential boyfriends by. That's why at 18 I'm not a pregnant drug addict
who gets beaten up every night, like MANY, MANY women I have met.
There's a 17-year-old girl where I work who's exboyfriend is stalking
her, thinks she is pregnant, and is living and sleeping with a
38-year-old man because she would be homeless otherwise. She works 30-35
hours a week at minimum wage, which barely covers her share of the rent
and bills and her cigarette addiction. At least she's trying to quit now
that she's pregnant. She didn't see a doctor when she sprained her
wrist, she certainly can't afford prenatal care. Why is she in this
situation? Because she had NO STANDARDS for the type of guy she got
involved with, so she moved to Alaska with her boyfriend when she was 16
and her parents wrote her off. After she got sick of her boyfriend
beating and threatening her, she moved back here and now only has to put
up with him stalking her and cornering her in parking lots with his car
and neat stuff like that.
Gee, maybe if I was a little more open-minded, I could get a great
boyfriend like that too!
> You lost me here a bit; here's my understanding: He was trying to court you,
> and you didn't realise. He was in Bellingham (holiday, study?) but lives
> in a different country. Whilst there, he touched your private parts. Since
> then he's been following you round the Net.
>
> Based on this, I comment: Here's a guy who *did* want to date you. When you
> didn't respond to his signals, or maybe responded strangely to them, he
> ran out of ideas and took a more direct approach. The fact that he's from
> a different country doesn't mean he can't date you, does it? Perhaps he'd
> like to move to Bellingham?
Oh, so I shouldn't be offended when I strange man I barely know who's
TWICE MY AGE violates my personal space? I suppose you just consider
rape to just be rough sex or something? "Well, Your Honor, she didn't
seem to understand my signals, so I took a more direct approach and raped
her." "Oh, well then that's perfectly understandable and okay then."
HELLO? Am I the only person here who thinks if a man violates my
personal space to such a degree, just starts fondling me without my
permission, that this automatically rules him out as EVER being a
possible date? Someone who doesn't understand signals and just starts
fondling in a FRIENDSHIP, will probably go a hell of a lot farther if
they thought we were in a relationship! A guy being clueless is NOT an
excuse to just start feeling me up out of the blue!
> Sounds like major communcation breakdown to me. He apparently thought that
> either you wanted your breast squeezed, or that he could get away with it
> if you didn't. If you flirt, you need to nevertheless make it quite clear
> what your expectations are.
"Well, Your Honor, she didn't scream, 'No, don't rape me!' the minute I
met her, so I guess you could just call it a communication breakdown."
HELLO? This is the SAME THING... rape is just a more extreme form of
violation of personal space than I experienced. He kissed me and I let
him, then he put his hand on my breast. I said, "No," and moved his
hand, "I'm not in the mood for more then this." This man then pushed me
against a wall, held me there, and roughly grabbed my breast again. When
I pushed him away enough to wriggle free, HE was angry with ME. I did
not drink, so I have a very clear memory of what occured and how I was
acting. He decided, because HE wanted to have sex with me, that gave him
a right to touch any part of my body he wanted. IT DOES NOT. IT GIVES
HIM NO RIGHT.
> : I hate men.
>
> Seems pretty unfair to me.
I still feel this way. There are a few men as individuals I am friends
with, but then again these are the ones who complain they have nothing in
common with other men and don't like them either. (And no, they're not
gay, I have several gay acquaintances and they all REALLY like men.) But
the male gender in general has proven itself to be made up of scumbags.
> Hey, guys can't telepathically know which women are interested and which
> aren't. There's more bad news for you too: neither can lesbians. Maybe
> there's less opportunity for misunderstanding between people of the same
> sex though. Good luck.
Not knowing if a woman is interested or not should be even MORE incentive
NOT to go around touching a woman's personal body parts without
permission. Because if she ISN'T, you've just done a major No-No in
violating the personal space of a woman who considered you a friend, and
definately might not anymore. When I like a guy, and I can't tell if he
likes me, and I want to make a first move, I simply ask, "May I kiss
you?" If they say No, you have your answer, if they say Yes, procede
from there. I was asking that question once and it was one of the
sexiest things ever said to me. A bit of a shock, but very exciting. So
it works! Learn it! Live it! Ask before you grope!
> : Maybe women aren't as infuriating and confusing. I haven't decided yet.
>
> Nope, I think they're more infuriating and confusing. ;-}
Thanks for the warning. I'll let you know if my personal experiences
match up.
> PS: Before I get flamed as yet another guy like the two Jaqueline has
> described -- I have never had a woman complain when I've touched her
> initimately.
>
> Hmmm, that doesn't sound quite right, but hopefully you'll get the drift.
So don't take my reply to your post personally. I'm not saying you are
the type of man I described. But the idea that their behavior was at ALL
justifiable, when it was an inappropriate, unwanted violation of my
personal space, is what makes me really angry and why I have written such
a strong reply.
Jacqueline Passey j...@az.com http://www.az.com/~jmp Bellingham, WA
"It won't give up it wants me dead goddamn this noise inside my head." -NIN
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
Jacqueline Passey
On Wed, 11 Sep 1996 t...@delphi.com wrote:
> >The fact is, the guys who post on this newsgroup seem for the most part
> >exceedingly nice. Maybe she should buy a plane ticket and meet one! I
>
> Actually, she made plans to do just this. Until he sent her his picture,
> anyway.
Silly boy. I still plan to, finances are even working out for it. But
that still doesn't solve the problem that you LIVE over there, and I LIVE
over here, and neither of us can really move, can we? So we can either
give up on it ever being more then a friendship where we visit each other
annually, or hope that the new virtual reality technologies get really,
really good. :)
Jacqueline Passey j...@az.com http://www.az.com/~jmp Bellingham, WA
"It won't give up it wants me dead goddamn this noise inside my head." -NIN
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
Mirtika
Ooooooooooooo!!!
Is there a possible romance brewing between our DogBoy and our Jacqueline?
How delightful!!!
Mir--smiling
Love can heal when truth is found.
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
Mirtika
Hi, again, Jacqueline:
You wrote: <<But
the male gender in general has proven itself to be made up of scumbags.>>
Gee....I have to disagree. Surely, a percentage of men think they can
just use women, can lie and abuse them. We see the stories of rape and
domestica abuse and have to acknowledge that a significant portion of men
are ruled by their gonads and not their brains.
BUT--even if it were 40% of men who are horrid and selfish and
"gropers"...that still would leave 60% of okay to wonderful guys.
My experiences with "good" men:
I had marriage proposals from some very nice men, who treated me with the
highest respect, but whom I just didn't love. None of these men groped
me. None of these men called me foul names or struck me with their fists.
All were eager and willing to make a home for me, work like dogs to keep
me comfortable, and treat me like some treasure.
(I had one very brief, very awful love affair once. He was a user. I
should have followed my instincts. The first 4-5 times he asked me out, I
said "NO". I finally gave in, got involved, got hurt byboth his subtle
and not so subtle cruelties, and left after one month. This was the ONLY
case of me being treated unkindly, and I blame myself for not heeding my
internal alarms sooner.)
My husband was a virgin until our wedding night. He didn't try to kiss me
until our THIRD date. Fourteen years later, he is still patient, gentle,
generous and loving. He's NEVER lost his temper; he's never been cruel.
He constantly strives to bring me joy. When he works late a lot, he
brings me cards to APOLOGIZE for not being able to be with me more; he
brings me chocolate and flowers.
I say all this to let you know there are MANY good men out there.....I
don't know why you don't find them, but I hope you do.
I also make note of this....you are very young. Eighteen. When I was 18,
I didn't have a serious boyfriend, and when I dated (rarely) I had to be
chaperoned (so forget sex). My father was very strict about where I could
go, what I could do, as old line Cuban dads are wont to be.
Overprotective.
With all those obstacles--not being allowed out alone, not being allowed
out past sunset until I was 18, and then only until 10pm, not being
particularly pretty, being chubby--I still found some nice fellas.
Don't give up on the whole male gender.
Give it some time. Don't give up on men. Maybe you need to assess why it
is that in your social circle you only seem to find the "assholes" and the
"gropers." Is it the neighborhood,the town, your friends, the types of
things you like to do?
I refuse to acknowledge that ALL MEN are pigs. I know for a fact that
they are not.
Another example: My brother is a good husband to his wife of 26 years.
They still go fishing and dancing together, they still plan camping trips,
they still have regular family cookouts for us....and they are still very
much in love.
With a little prayer that your life gets less lonely.....
Mir
Love can heal when truth is found.
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
Keith Wood
In article <Pine.BSF.3.91.960913...@anna.az.com>,
Jacqueline Passey <j...@az.com> wrote:
[On 10 Sep 1996, Frank van der Hulst wrote:
[Oh, so I shouldn't be offended when I strange man I barely know who's
[TWICE MY AGE violates my personal space?
HEY! What does AGE have to do with it? _I_ amd a strange man (so
they tell me) and I am two-and-a-sixth times your age. ;)
It's the violating-your-space part that should be the factor.
[HELLO? Am I the only person here who thinks if a man violates my
[personal space to such a degree, just starts fondling me without my
[permission, that this automatically rules him out as EVER being a
[possible date?
That could rule him out as ever taking another breath, depending on
how much he invades! ;)
[HELLO? This is the SAME THING... rape is just a more extreme form of
[violation of personal space than I experienced. He kissed me and I let
[him, then he put his hand on my breast. I said, "No," and moved his
[hand, "I'm not in the mood for more then this."
The kiss was acceptable, more was not? This sounds like a reasonable
limit to me.
[ This man then pushed me
[against a wall, held me there, and roughly grabbed my breast again.
Your term is inaccurate. A MAN wouldn't do that, just some GUYS.
And some gals, for that matter . . !
[> : I hate men.
[>
[> Seems pretty unfair to me.
[
[I still feel this way. There are a few men as individuals I am friends
[with, but then again these are the ones who complain they have nothing in
[common with other men and don't like them either. (And no, they're not
[gay, I have several gay acquaintances and they all REALLY like men.) But
[the male gender in general has proven itself to be made up of scumbags.
I disagree (surprise?). I grew up in the heyday of "women's
liberation," and I can tell you from firsthand experience that it has
left a lot of us very confused in dealing with ladies. Each new
contact brings the overwhelming probability of failure, because some
women want cavemen, others want 1970 hey-I-respect-your-space types,
still others want to be the alpha in the relationships, and then
there are those who want to be the co-captain . . .
. . .and when we misread the signs and fail, we are seen as scumbags.
[Not knowing if a woman is interested or not should be even MORE incentive
[NOT to go around touching a woman's personal body parts without
[permission.
Agreed. In the scenario above (if I ever trusted any woman enough to
take another chance at love), I might have kissed and fondled, but I
would have backed off to your comfort limit.
Mirtika
Hey, Jacqueline.
You wrote:
<<HELLO? Am I the only person here who thinks if a man violates my
personal space to such a degree, just starts fondling me without my
permission, that this automatically rules him out as EVER being a
possible date?>>
As I mentioned in another post, this is inappropriate unless YOU
specifically let him know it was ok. I'm with you. He's a creep.
Mir
Love can heal when truth is found.
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
Frank van der Hulst
[Quoting trimmed - Mod]
Jacqueline Passey (j...@az.com) wrote:
: I KNOW this isn't a personals newsgroup. I didn't WANT someone from
: Bellingham to ask me out. I didn't want ANYONE to ask me out. If I did,
So, why did you post here then?
: I would have posted in alt.personals. This is not alt.personals! This
: is soc.support.loneliness! So why, when I post about my particular
: circumstances leading to my loneliness, NO LESS THEN THIRTY-FOUR MEN
: EMAIL ME ASKING ME OUT!
Perhaps because they thought it might help you feel a bit better?
: > Trying to be constructive here... it seems you have lots of rules that
: > potential dates must comply with... must live in Pacific NW, pref. Bellingham,
: > must pursue you, no sex, must PROVE he loves you. [Question: how will you
: > prove you love him?] The more rules you impose on the list of potential
: > dates, the less that will match up.
: So let's see, you're saying I should settle for a pointless long distance
: relationship, or one where the guy takes me for granted, wants to do
: nothing but fuck, and doesn't genuinely care about me because he's only
: using me for sex? Well I guess I COULD have LOTS of boyfriends then.
So, where did I say this?
: > Secondly, I *hate* this concept of "pursuit". It implies that it's all a
: > game... woman pretends to be coy, man must overcome her fake reservations,
: > etc. It seems a pretty dishonest way to start a relationship.
: "Fake" reservations? My reservations aren't faked. While I want a
: boyfriend, I want one that gives a damn about me, not someone who will
: take me for granted. Again. The concept of "pursuit" is the concept
: that the guy will show a little EFFORT to start a relationship with me
: for a change, instead of me doing all the work, being the considerate
: one, instead of me always thinking about him, how he feels, him giving
: something back, instead of just TAKING.
So, if you want a relationship with someone, say so! If you don't, say that.
If you want a relationship, and say no a couple times just to see how
interested he is in you, how much effort he's going to put in, he may very
well decide that what you actually meant was "No" and give up.
: > Thirdly, I was married to a woman who had rules like you seem to to run her
: > life, and which she insisted on imposing on me. It all got a bit much, and
: > perhaps I'm biassed, but people like that come across as "bossy".
: I don't have rules that run my life. I have standards that I judge
: potential boyfriends by. That's why at 18 I'm not a pregnant drug addict
: who gets beaten up every night, like MANY, MANY women I have met.
You must live in a rough neighbourhood. I haven't met ANY pregnant drug
addicts who get beaten up every night. And I'm more than twice your age
(Double Whhoooeee... just as well I didn't email you!!). I've met some women
who got beaten up sometimes, and some who were unwantedly pregnant, and
a couple of drug addicts. But I'm gonna have to call you on this: How many
is MANY, MANY?
[snip... teenage horror story]
: Gee, maybe if I was a little more open-minded, I could get a great
: boyfriend like that too!
No-one, no-one *at* *all*, has suggested you accept every person as a
potential partner. If you'll step into the real world for a moment, what
I'm suggesting is lowering your standards a little.
: > Based on this, I comment: Here's a guy who *did* want to date you. When you
: > didn't respond to his signals, or maybe responded strangely to them, he
: > ran out of ideas and took a more direct approach. The fact that he's from
: > a different country doesn't mean he can't date you, does it? Perhaps he'd
: > like to move to Bellingham?
: Oh, so I shouldn't be offended when I strange man I barely know who's
: TWICE MY AGE violates my personal space?
Is there a rule against people TWICE YOUR AGE courting you? Did you explain
this rule to the man in question?
I have no idea what actually happened beyond what you've posted. I'm certainly
not going to dictate what should or should not offend anyone.
: I suppose you just consider
: rape to just be rough sex or something?
However, I do know what offends *me*. Do you have any basis for this rude
and offensive supposition?
: HELLO? Am I the only person here who thinks if a man violates my
: personal space to such a degree, just starts fondling me without my
: permission, that this automatically rules him out as EVER being a
: possible date? Someone who doesn't understand signals and just starts
: fondling in a FRIENDSHIP, will probably go a hell of a lot farther if
: they thought we were in a relationship! A guy being clueless is NOT an
: excuse to just start feeling me up out of the blue!
From your previous post "I
was somehow supposed to know he was trying to court me when he was very
unclear about it, I thought we were just friends" it seems that *he*
thought things had gone beyond friendship, but you didn't. Perhaps *you*
didn't understand *his* signals just as much as he didn't understand
yours?
: > Sounds like major communcation breakdown to me. He apparently thought that
: > either you wanted your breast squeezed, or that he could get away with it
: > if you didn't. If you flirt, you need to nevertheless make it quite clear
: > what your expectations are.
: "Well, Your Honor, she didn't scream, 'No, don't rape me!' the minute I
: met her, so I guess you could just call it a communication breakdown."
: HELLO? This is the SAME THING... rape is just a more extreme form of
: violation of personal space than I experienced.
It is NOT the same thing. Someone beating you up with a baseball bat is
just a more extreme form of violation of personal space as them bumping
into you in the street. That doesn't make it the same thing.
: He kissed me and I let
: him, then he put his hand on my breast. I said, "No," and moved his
: hand, "I'm not in the mood for more then this." This man then pushed me
: against a wall, held me there, and roughly grabbed my breast again.
IMHO, this behaviour is all a consequence of the "pursuit" stuff which says
that when a woman says no she's just playing hard to get. Presumably at some
time in the past he's found that being more forceful has been successful.
: When
: I pushed him away enough to wriggle free, HE was angry with ME.
My interpretation: he was angry at the situation he was in, where things
all of a sudden didn't meet his expectations.
: I did
: not drink, so I have a very clear memory of what occured and how I was
: acting. He decided, because HE wanted to have sex with me, that gave him
: a right to touch any part of my body he wanted. IT DOES NOT. IT GIVES
: HIM NO RIGHT.
You KNOW what he thought? So you're psychic or something? Be realistic; he
wanted to have sex, thought that you might want to too, so he tried it on.
: > : I hate men.
: > Seems pretty unfair to me.
: I still feel this way. There are a few men as individuals I am friends
: with, but then again these are the ones who complain they have nothing in
: common with other men and don't like them either. (And no, they're not
: gay, I have several gay acquaintances and they all REALLY like men.) But
: the male gender in general has proven itself to be made up of scumbags.
Yeah right! You've met maybe .000001% of men, and decided that in general
we're scumbags. Counting the men your friends know, that'd be .0001% of
men. Sounds realistic to me. Not!
: So don't take my reply to your post personally. I'm not saying you are
: the type of man I described. But the idea that their behavior was at ALL
: justifiable, when it was an inappropriate, unwanted violation of my
: personal space, is what makes me really angry and why I have written such
: a strong reply.
Yes, I can see that you're angry. But, if you let the behaviour of a couple
of men dictate your attitude (and therefore behaviour) towards all men, I
think you're in for a helluva lot of lonely years.
Write off those guys as a couple of scumbags and get on with your life.
Frank.
--
fra...@kai.ee.cit.ac.nz Frank van der Hulst
This is my old account. For witty signature, etc
email me at fra...@pec.co.nz.
My home page is http://www.pec.co.nz/~frankv
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
Jacqueline Passey
On 10 Sep 1996, Mirtika wrote:
> I don't know if it was intentional or not, but your reply to Jacqueline
> had me guffawing. : > FUNNY!
>
> I do think she's just very hurt and speaking out of anger. She'll probably
> realize she sounded extreme when she calms down. I mean, does she really
> think she can just switch to liking women just like THAT???
I've always liked women, but all my opportunities to explore that fell
through. They got psycho or moved or something, every time.
> The fact is, the guys who post on this newsgroup seem for the most part
> exceedingly nice. Maybe she should buy a plane ticket and meet one! I
> know if I were as lonely and desperate as she seems to be, I might be
> tempted to meet someone who came across as gentle and kind and
> intelligent. Who knows? Better than Mr. Groper. Better than just
> suffering like she clearly is.
Been there, done that. Going through it again. Don't want another
T-shirt. Why can't I, for once, meet a man who is gentle, kind,
intelligent, MY AGE, SINGLE, and who lives on THIS SIDE OF THE CONTINENT?
Sigh.
Jacqueline Passey j...@az.com http://www.az.com/~jmp Bellingham, WA
"It won't give up it wants me dead goddamn this noise inside my head." -NIN
Jacqueline Passey
On 10 Sep 1996, Gregory Nalbandian wrote:
> What kind of responses were you expecting? You must have had the
> foresight to know that lonely guys would jump all over the previous post.
EVERY time I've posted here I get 2 or 3 lonely guys emailing me with
nothing useful to say, just "hey email me we'll chat." I mean, come ON
guys, do you really think you're the ONLY ONE who writes those kind of
emails to me, and it's not getting old by now? No, what freaked me out
is the sheer VOLUME to email I received. 34 men asking me out. More
with various comments and suggestions. I usually get 3 pieces of email a
DAY. That was just too much. I deleted most of it.
> : Now I'm not saying this is right for everyone, so don't flame me for
> : being non PC, but I am traditional in my ideas of courting, I think it
> : should be the man's responsibility to pursue the woman,
>
> Any particular REASON why?
Hello, please read my post before you reply. "I am traditional in my
ideas of courting." I like being treated like a lady, pursued, not taken
for granted or expected to just jump into some guy's arms if he looks at
me. I also wrote, "I'm not saying this is right for everyone." I was
just saying what >I< personally felt comfortable with.
> : and two people
> : shouldn't have sex unless they are in love.
>
> I disagree. Casual sex is okay as long as both parties are willing and
> neither stands the chance of getting emotionally hurt.
Again, this was following my writing, "I'm not saying this is right for
everyone." These are MY FEELINGS about MY EXPERIENCES what >I< want
etc. I didn't dictate "NO ONE should have sex unless they are in love."
> Sounds like your own insecurities (not their rejection of you) led to this
> behavior. I have a hard time imagining ALL of the guys you've dated
> saying--subtley or with body language--"If you don't 'put out', there will
> be no second date."
Half the time there weren't even really dates. Those were the strongly
implied, or learned through trial-and-error, conditions of continuing to
be able to spend tiem with them and for them to like me.
> Having never asked a woman out myself, I cannot offer any technique that
> will motivate the man to initiate. My guess is that you have done quite a
> bit of flirting only to be unsuccessful. I don't mean to be an asshole,
> but there could be a few reasons for this:
I don't flirt anymore. When I used to flirt, I narrowly avoided being
raped. This happened on more then one occasion. I don't flirt anymore.
> 1. Men don't find you attractive
Obviously not the problem, or I wouldn't be fending off so many creeps.
> 2. Your body language and gestures--while you intend them to convey "Come
> get me big boy"--may actually be confusing to men. In other words,
> some women know how to flirt, and others don't. Physical contact is a
> sure fire way to get a man's attention. Try little things like the
> shoulder tap, arm tap, and the hand tap. I know it sounds ridiculous
> but, one girl did these things to me and it definitely got my
> attention.
My experiences with this sort of flirting have resulting in men using it
as an excuse to paw me and pressue me for sex, saying that I wanted it,
was teasing them, leading them on, etc. I try to let a guy know that I
like him and I'm interested in getting to know him better, and suddenly
he wants to fuck. Right away. And he gets really pissy if I don't want
to. I move slower then that, it takes me a while to warm up to someone.
> 3. You are so attractive that men automatically assume you are taken.
Not when I TELL THEM I'm not.
> Also, asking men about their personal lives will show them that you are
> interested, possibly prompting them to ask you out.
I do this. I not only ask them things, I do a little digging (I'm an
information junkie) and find out things about them that way. As a matter
of habit, I study people, their facial expressions, tone, posture,
movement, the subtle things implied with the WAY they say something
instead of how they say it... for example, I barely know any DETAILS
about the people I work with, because there is never time to get to know
them that well, but I can tell you a lot about their CHARACTER.
> Not all men are like that........Hell, some guys aren't even expecting a
> woman to "put out" on the first few dates or even the first few months. I
> think you are attracted to the wrong kind of men (you know, the bad ones).
I'M not attracted to THEM, they're attracted to me. All the men I like
are married already. :( But if a guy expresses an interest in me, and
I wasn't interested in them already, I try to give them a shot, because
letting someone know that you like them that way is a scary thing, you
know? And I feel at least the guy deserves a CHANCE for being so brave,
right? But they universally seem to blow it by trying to push things too
far, too fast.
> No you don't. You hate assholes, which seems to be the type you find
> attractive.
I'm not attracted to assholes. Assholes are attracted to me. I'm
attracted to married men. I'm serious. I've met a total of THREE
married men in the last year alone that I think are just great.
Except... they're married!
steve (s.) keppel-jones
Jacqueline Passey <j...@az.com> wrote:
>
>Been there, done that. Going through it again. Don't want another
>T-shirt. Why can't I, for once, meet a man who is gentle, kind,
>intelligent, MY AGE, SINGLE, and who lives on THIS SIDE OF THE CONTINENT?
Hmmm, is your side of the continent as overrun with single women
as this side is with single men? Why don't we trade places? I'm
guessing we'll both be happier. :) ('Course, if all the single
guys here move over there, and all the single women there move over
here, that won't help either...)
--
Steve Keppel-Jones (ste...@nortel.ca)| CLATTOR/EMAC/VAHA/BAAWA!/UAI
| Life's not too short, it's just that you're dead for so long! |
| GCS/E -d+ H-- g- au* a- w+ v---(-)(?) C++++ US+++$ P++ E>++ N+++ |
| W-- M-() V-- -po+ t+ 5++ tv b+++ D+ e- u++(**) h- f+() r n++ !y+ |
Jacqueline Passey
On 13 Sep 1996, Mirtika wrote:
> Your recommendation about keeping to local dating agencies and local
> personals (GACK! I have suspicions about THOSE!) is right on target. If
> one isn't disposed to live out a long-distance romance or inclined to
> flying out to meet someone (risky), then the only option left (aside from
> moving) is to stick to the local BBS and local scenes.
Dating agencies, etc. mostly cost money. I have none. I guess that's
another reason I've been reluctant to ask men out, generally the person
who does the asking is expected to pay or at least pay dutch and I just
can't afford it.
> << However, (how can I put this) fondling of... certain
> bodily areas is what some people DO in the early stages of "courting".>>
>
> Well, yes, all right..true. But from her post, I was clearly under the
> impression they had just met at some party, there was some flirtation,
> and--PRESTO--groping ensues. Now, if you've just met someone, this does
> not qualify as "courting" to me, or justification for groping (unless she
> says, "Hey, go for it, Big Boy.")
Yeah, I met the guy 15 minutes ago. And the other one I was complaining
about, the one that sent me screaming emails, was someone that I had met
at a Christmas party when I was there with another guy, my date, and we
exchanged email addresses and sent each other email and I thought we were
having a very nice email FRIENDSHIP discussing science fiction authors
and dishes and whatnot and suddenly when we're hanging out in person
again he's making passes and getting fresh with me and HELLO? This was
totally out of the blue for me. Then he sends screaming emails about all
the "abuse" I heaped upon him. And other men off this newsgroup say it's
my fault for not reading his signals and reacting poorly to his "more
direct approach" (to put his hands where they weren't wanted). I mean,
how am I supposed to telepathically know that some guy I had a very nice
email friendship with, which is NOT a very close interpersonal
relationship given that I had met him ONCE before that, and who had met
me when I was another man's date, was interested in me? How am I
supposed to know that? And why am I the unreasonable one to expect my
personal space and my intimate body parts to be left alone, instead of
being treated like he expected me to be some slut or something?
> Courting implies a certain honorable intent, with a certain amount of
> talking and dating and getting to know one another, don't you think?
>
> Maybe I"m just old-fashioned....
No you're not, that's exactly right. DATING to get to know one another,
instead of to get into bed. None of this "if she doesn't sleep with you
by the third date she doesn't like you so give up on her" crap. No love,
no sex, and you can't fall in love with someone after three dates. That
takes a lot of time. I am not setting myself up to be hurt anymore.
Jacqueline Passey j...@az.com http://www.az.com/~jmp Bellingham, WA
"It won't give up it wants me dead goddamn this noise inside my head." -NIN
Coffee
In article <Pine.BSF.3.91.960919...@anna.az.com>,
Jacqueline Passey <j...@az.com> wrote:
> Been there, done that. Going through it again. Don't want another
> T-shirt. Why can't I, for once, meet a man who is gentle, kind,
> intelligent, MY AGE, SINGLE, and who lives on THIS SIDE OF THE CONTINENT?
>
> Sigh.
>
> Jacqueline Passey j...@az.com http://www.az.com/~jmp Bellingham, WA
> "It won't give up it wants me dead goddamn this noise inside my head." -NIN
Just a personal opinion..
I'd be rather nervous about offending you at this point.. especially if I
were a guy reading this newsgroup. Not that you've overreacted to other
guys.. I agree with Mir in saying that Mr. Groper (what a name..) is a
creep. But, though I consider myself to be gentle, kind, intelligent.. am
your age and single and am most likely moving to your side of the
continent soon.. having read your response to the posts you got earlier..
I wouldn't have the guts to say hi this time.
I realize this sounds confusing because it probably sounds like I just did
say hi.. but I'm sure somebody in the universe got my point :)
Anyways,
Dan/Coffee
--
"How do ducks know
What direction south is?
And how to tell their wife
>From all the other ducks?"
-Crash Test Dummies
Mirtika
Hi Jacqueline.
You wrote: << I'm
attracted to married men. I'm serious. I've met a total of THREE
married men in the last year alone that I think are just great.
Except... they're married! >>
Yep, I suppose they're married cause they're GREAT! : >
I'm still rather mind-boggled at how our experiences are so different.
Maybe it IS geographical? I've never been pawed, never been groped, never
been treated like a piece of meat. I have been treated badly by one
person, but not in that way. It was psychological cruelty.
Then again, at age nineteen, I was too busy with college and work to worry
overly much about a lovelife. It wasn't a priority. I dated, but with no
compulsion to find THE ONE. Crushes were nice, though. : >
Did I get your age wrong? Is it 19?
I probably shouldn't ask, BUT what is it that you call flirting? Some of
the posts referred to men taking it wrong...as permission to grope or get
overly sexual. To me, flirting is smiling a lot, a little look in the
eye, sitting close, touch on the arm or leg....that's about it. Anything
beyond that from ME, and I figure I'm sending an invitation. But that's
just ME.......I certainly can't define flirting for everyone.
Note: I think you got overly sensitive about the men who emailed you.
They most likely meant well. They most likely wanted to cheer you up. I
think them saying "let's chat" was rather sweet. I certainly don't think
it was something to get angry over.
I get more than 60 pieces of mail a day. I just delete something I don't
wish to read or hold it for later. I don't berate people for writing to
me.
Mir
Love can heal when truth is found.
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
539...@wmich.edu
In article <Pine.BSF.3.91.960919...@anna.az.com>,
Jacqueline Passey <j...@az.com> writes:
> On 13 Sep 1996, Mirtika wrote:
>
>> Your recommendation about keeping to local dating agencies and local
>> personals (GACK! I have suspicions about THOSE!) is right on target. If
>> one isn't disposed to live out a long-distance romance or inclined to
>> flying out to meet someone (risky), then the only option left (aside from
>> moving) is to stick to the local BBS and local scenes.
>
> Dating agencies, etc. mostly cost money. I have none. I guess that's
> another reason I've been reluctant to ask men out, generally the person
> who does the asking is expected to pay or at least pay dutch and I just
> can't afford it.
>
>> bodily areas is what some people DO in the early stages of "courting".>>
>>
>> impression they had just met at some party, there was some flirtation,
>> and--PRESTO--groping ensues. Now, if you've just met someone, this does
>> not qualify as "courting" to me, or justification for groping (unless she
>> says, "Hey, go for it, Big Boy.")
[Mod: some quoting snipped for space]
>> Courting implies a certain honorable intent, with a certain amount of
>> talking and dating and getting to know one another, don't you think?
>>
>> Maybe I"m just old-fashioned....
>
> No you're not, that's exactly right. DATING to get to know one another,
> instead of to get into bed. None of this "if she doesn't sleep with you
> by the third date she doesn't like you so give up on her" crap. No love,
> no sex, and you can't fall in love with someone after three dates. That
> takes a lot of time. I am not setting myself up to be hurt anymore.
Its hard to find people who are beautiful inside and outside.. You have
a good method to find the person who truly appreciates you.
"like I always say to myself.. if that is the person whom I just want to
sleep with ... I am looking at the wrong one no matter how tempting it is."
Giving up will not solve your problems.. if you still want a relationship.
It will only prolong the pain... There is no sure way to find your perfect
partner. Haste and desperation will only cause dissaster. Keep your hopes up
and try again.
Perhaps a casual meeting with your 'date' could let you know what is
his expectations in this relationship. Go do something informal... like
jogging, group outing, etc. This way, there are no expectations or
obligations to do anything. I guess you won't get too emotional when any one
of you feels that the relationship is going no where. People are often
not being themselves when they are in a formal occassion.
Just my opinions...enlighten me if I made some terrible mistakes that
I know not of...
Gregory Nalbandian
Jacqueline Passey (j...@az.com) wrote:
: On 10 Sep 1996, Gregory Nalbandian "The friendly asshole" wrote:
: > : Now I'm not saying this is right for everyone, so don't flame me for
: > : being non PC, but I am traditional in my ideas of courting, I think it
: > : should be the man's responsibility to pursue the woman,
: >
: > Any particular REASON why?
:
: Hello, please read my post before you reply. "I am traditional in my
: ideas of courting." I like being treated like a lady, pursued, not taken
: for granted or expected to just jump into some guy's arms if he looks at
: me.
Hello, Hello!!! You still didn't answer my question, Jac. WHY do you
feel it is the man's responsibility to pursue the woman? If you don't
have a reason, maybe YOU don't feel that way at all. Maybe it's just one
of those irrational values that parents instill in their children.
: > Sounds like your own insecurities (not their rejection of you) led to this
: > behavior. I have a hard time imagining ALL of the guys you've dated
: > saying--subtley or with body language--"If you don't 'put out', there will
: > be no second date."
:
: Half the time there weren't even really dates. Those were the strongly
: implied, or learned through trial-and-error, conditions of continuing to
: be able to spend tiem with them and for them to like me.
You must come from a town where kids grow up fast! I can't imagine doing
all the adult things you've done by the age of EIGHTEEN. Shit, I still
haven't experienced those "adult" things at my ripe old age of 23!!! As I
said before (in a follow-up the moderators lost--shame on them), you need
to slow down. There are, and will be, plenty of opportunities for an
intelligent woman like yourself, to date.
From the way you were talking--in your first post--I pictured a
thirty-something year old lady!
: I don't flirt anymore. When I used to flirt, I narrowly avoided being
: raped. This happened on more then one occasion. I don't flirt anymore.
Geez! I don't know where you live but, I suggest evacuating that part of
the country as soon as possible.
: > 2. Your body language and gestures--while you intend them to convey "Come
: > get me big boy"--may actually be confusing to men. In other words,
: > some women know how to flirt, and others don't. Physical contact is a
: > sure fire way to get a man's attention. Try little things like the
: > shoulder tap, arm tap, and the hand tap. I know it sounds ridiculous
: > but, one girl did these things to me and it definitely got my
: > attention.
:
: My experiences with this sort of flirting have resulting in men using it
: as an excuse to paw me and pressue me for sex, saying that I wanted it,
: was teasing them, leading them on, etc. I try to let a guy know that I
: like him and I'm interested in getting to know him better, and suddenly
: he wants to fuck. Right away. And he gets really pissy if I don't want
: to. I move slower then that, it takes me a while to warm up to someone.
Are you attracted to guys with a pronounced, lower brow? Do they drag
their knuckles on the ground and grunt a lot? Do they suspiciously appear
after the snowcaps melt in the spring???? CAN THEY READ!!!?? Can you
actually see their skin, or just a tangled matt of hair?
If you answered "yes" to any of these, I suggest you try switching
species.
: > Not all men are like that........Hell, some guys aren't even expecting a
: > woman to "put out" on the first few dates or even the first few months. I
: > think you are attracted to the wrong kind of men (you know, the bad ones).
:
: I'M not attracted to THEM, they're attracted to me.
Hello, Hello, Hello!!! You are a little liar now, aren't you? You told
us before that YOU are the one who has to ask the men out, right?
Therefore, YOU seem to be picking assholes the way I wish I could pick
lotto numbers!!
: All the men I like
: are married already.
Now I'm really getting worried about you..........Please don't EVER let
yourself become the "other woman". FIND YOUR OWN MAN!
Just because some freak is married, it does not automatically make him a
nice guy. I'm sure some of those married guys you like are unbelievable,
assholic legends in their own time.
Message: "Beware the Asshole"--He comes in the married and single variety
with about equal frequency.
:( But if a guy expresses an interest in me, and
: I wasn't interested in them already, I try to give them a shot, because
: letting someone know that you like them that way is a scary thing, you
: know? And I feel at least the guy deserves a CHANCE for being so brave,
: right?
Wow! You are extremely cool for doing this.
: I'm not attracted to assholes. Assholes are attracted to me.
LIAR!!! You are in denial.......Remember, you must first acknowledge the
fact that you have a problem before recovering.
: I'm attracted to married men. I'm serious. I've met a total of THREE
: married men in the last year alone that I think are just great.
: Except... they're married!
......If you listen carefully, you can hear a faint voice in the distance
(like the other side of the country) saying, "Beware the asshole".
It's me! Here it is, 12 A.M., and I am leaning out my apartment window
(topless) yelling this message to you. My neighbors are looking at me;
they're all laughing; my nipples are hard from the cold (can you feel the
pain I endure?); I glance back and notice the large mirror behind me;
I'm not wearing any pants; the drapes are wide open; the lights are on;
everyone can see my naked bottom in the mirror and I'm shouting "BEWARE
THE ASSHOLE" at the top of my lungs!
See the pure shame I put myself through for you?
Seriously, though, married men are NO better than single men..........They
are just married.
PManitou
Mirtika wrote to Jacqueline:
>> Courting implies a certain honorable intent, with a certain amount of
>> talking and dating and getting to know one another, don't you think?
>>
>> Maybe I"m just old-fashioned....
and Jacqueline responded Sep 19:
>No you're not, that's exactly right. DATING to get to know one another,
>instead of to get into bed. None of this "if she doesn't sleep with you
>by the third date she doesn't like you so give up on her" crap. No love,
>no sex, and you can't fall in love with someone after three dates. That
>takes a lot of time. I am not setting myself up to be hurt anymore.
Bravo. I agree 100%. I (a male) would not try to initiate sex after three
dates (that doesn't really count, though, since I wouldn't know how to
initiate sex anyway).
You have to find middle ground, not sleeping with assholes on the one
hand, but not putting up the iron gates to shut out the nice guys you
might meet. They're out there ... although you might need to wait a few
years until the guys in your age group mature.
How about your friends? Do they know guys that might be good candidates
for you? Hopefully a friend wouldn't recommend a real jerk.
JJF
In article <Pine.BSF.3.91.960919...@anna.az.com>,
j...@az.com (Jacqueline Passey) wrote:
> Yeah, I met the guy 15 minutes ago. And the other one I was complaining
> about, the one that sent me screaming emails, was someone that I had met
> at a Christmas party when I was there with another guy, my date, and we
> exchanged email addresses and sent each other email and I thought we were
> having a very nice email FRIENDSHIP discussing science fiction authors
> and dishes and whatnot and suddenly when we're hanging out in person
> again he's making passes and getting fresh with me and HELLO? This was
> totally out of the blue for me. Then he sends screaming emails about all
> the "abuse" I heaped upon him. And other men off this newsgroup say it's
> my fault for not reading his signals and reacting poorly to his "more
> direct approach" (to put his hands where they weren't wanted). I mean,
Hmmmm - this wasn't actually what I meant. This sounded to me like a
complete and utter breakdown in communication - you weren't reading his
signals, he wasn't reading your signals, he thought a "more direct
approach" was appropriate, you didn't and gracefully informed him.
This is just one of those things that happen, nobodies fault whatsoever.
But this in itself is not a justification to send abusive emails - unless
of course you had really been leading him on. I'd guess this chap was
really screwed up about something else, built your relationship up in his
mind to be something very deep and meaningful, and was hurt when he found
out that this wasn't the case. And, like anyone whose hurt, he has decided
to lash out.
> how am I supposed to telepathically know that some guy I had a very nice
> email friendship with, which is NOT a very close interpersonal
> relationship given that I had met him ONCE before that, and who had met
> me when I was another man's date, was interested in me? How am I
You're not (unless he told you so, of course). But just because you've
only met someone once is no reason why a relationship can't be a very
close interpersonal one - after all, you do hear of people who correspond
by Email for years and decide to get married without ever meeting!
I'd be interested to know if any of those marriages actually last...
> supposed to know that? And why am I the unreasonable one to expect my
> personal space and my intimate body parts to be left alone, instead of
> being treated like he expected me to be some slut or something?
It's not unreasonable. But it's equally unlikely to happen, because of
the number of guys out there who think it IS reasonable to pet (?) your
intimate body parts. Short of having plastic surgery or joining a nunnery,
there's not much you can do about it. Sorry.
JJF
In article <3240b...@156.59.19.21>,
fra...@ee.cit.ac.nz (Frank van der Hulst) wrote:
> : "Fake" reservations? My reservations aren't faked. While I want a
> : boyfriend, I want one that gives a damn about me, not someone who will
> : take me for granted. Again. The concept of "pursuit" is the concept
> : that the guy will show a little EFFORT to start a relationship with me
> : for a change, instead of me doing all the work, being the considerate
> : one, instead of me always thinking about him, how he feels, him giving
> : something back, instead of just TAKING.
>
> So, if you want a relationship with someone, say so! If you don't, say that.
> If you want a relationship, and say no a couple times just to see how
> interested he is in you, how much effort he's going to put in, he may very
> well decide that what you actually meant was "No" and give up.
Here here. If a woman rejects me then I'm not going to stick around pestering
here for a date - I'm going to keep as far away from her as possible, because :
(a) I respect her, and if she doesn't want to be with me then I can respect
her feelings.
(b) If I kept pestering her day after day after day then I might get her on
a date, but because she felt sorry for me rather than because she wanted
to.
(c) I wouldn't WANT to spend too much time with someone who'd just rejected
me!
> : He kissed me and I let
> : him, then he put his hand on my breast. I said, "No," and moved his
> : hand, "I'm not in the mood for more then this." This man then pushed me
> : against a wall, held me there, and roughly grabbed my breast again.
>
> IMHO, this behaviour is all a consequence of the "pursuit" stuff which says
> that when a woman says no she's just playing hard to get. Presumably at some
> time in the past he's found that being more forceful has been successful.
Aye aye aye - this is an excellent point, Frank! We get continually told
"no means no" (I forget what in relation to), and it should. But with
this "pursuit" thing, "no" sometimes means "yes, but I want you to crawl a
bit first".
It's very sad.
On the other hand, as Jacqueline said, you can always ask. This all might
be a REASON for the guy's behaviour but (IMHO) it doesn't constitute an
EXCUSE!
Mirtika
Gregory, in his rather..um...enthusiastic and bare-breasted, bare-assed
response to Jacqueline (WHAT AN IMAGE!), wrote:
<<From the way you were talking--in your first post--I pictured a
thirty-something year old lady!>>
Er..I have to admit, I was thinking late thirties, early forties, myself.
I mean, a woman who's slogged through asshole after asshole (pardon my
Mesopotamian), just gives me the impression of many years' worth of
experienced. Imagine my surprise (shock) to learn that our Jacqueline is
but nineteen.
I would say that either these guys came and went in machine-gun rapidity,
or Jacqueline started looking for her soulmate real early in life.
Either way, I think there is time and hope and a good guy out there for
Jacqueline--just relax, some girlfriend. YOU ARE YOUNG!!!!!! : > Enjoy
that youth instead of agonizing over Mr. Right's not showing up
post-haste.
<<Hello, Hello!!! You still didn't answer my question, Jac. WHY do you
feel it is the man's responsibility to pursue the woman? If you don't
have a reason, maybe YOU don't feel that way at all. Maybe it's just one
of those irrational values that parents instill in their children.>>
Don't be naive, Gregory. You know darn well that women are brought up to
give clues, flirt, but not be the ASKER (Is there such a thing as an
asker???....an askee???). It never occurred to me to ask my hubby for his
phone number. Instead, I did all I could to let him know I'd be happy to
give him MINE. He got the message.
Now, in my single days, I made it my mission to give very clear cues. I
might say: "I think you're cute...adorable...fascinating." I'd bat those
Maybellined eyelashes and drop SUBTLE hints like "I'd really love to go to
that Igor Kipnis concert! Oh, would I!" "Wow, the art fair is next
week.....you going? I'm dying to go myself."
So, Jacqueline and I are just living up to the societal expectations.
Don't blame us for behaving as programmed.
Now..with that said---- GIRLS: Ask for those telephone numbers!!!!
Greg insists! ; >
<<You must come from a town where kids grow up fast! I can't imagine
doing
all the adult things you've done by the age of EIGHTEEN.>>
Ditto. I'd just learned how to kiss properly at 18. I hadn't even trotted
on to whatever particular base is "petting."
<<Hello, Hello, Hello!!! You are a little liar now, aren't you? You told
us before that YOU are the one who has to ask the men out, right?>>
OUCH!
Well, when she flirted with Mr. Groper, how was she supposed to know he
had loose hands???
Although, I will say, that perhaps there is something that attracts the
poops to Jacqueline. That's why I had queried her about what she
considered flirtation. Some of the stuff that I've seen CALLED flirtation
(leaning in so close that your nipples are in plain sight and twirling
that tongue about in a gesture that says, "Call me Ms. Hoover"), I would
consider an all out invitation to grope and grab and poke. ( I know, the
feminists are throwing tomatoes at me, but body language is a LANGUAGE and
it does say YES and NO in a real loud voice sometimes.) Of course, as soon
as she said "no," a man must back off...NOW.
I don't say that's what happened in Jacqueline's case (clear sexual
message to attack)....I merely speculate.
<<Please don't EVER let
yourself become the "other woman". FIND YOUR OWN MAN!>>
I second that motion. I even triple it.
<<Just because some freak is married, it does not automatically make him a
nice guy. I'm sure some of those married guys you like are unbelievable,
assholic legends in their own time.>>
Hmmm...do you mean he was transformed by the power of the love of a good
woman? The Beast turned into the Non-Assholic Prince?
I don't know if that happens in REAL life all that often. If he was
selfish, abusive and a quasi-rapist pre-marriage, he isn't gonna turn into
Billy Graham just cause he said "I do."
At least, I don't think so.
Okay, Gregory....put your pants on now and cover up those aggrieved
nipples.
Mir
Love can heal when truth is found.
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
JJF
> I do this. I not only ask them things, I do a little digging (I'm an
> information junkie) and find out things about them that way. As a matter
> of habit, I study people, their facial expressions, tone, posture,
> movement, the subtle things implied with the WAY they say something
> instead of how they say it... for example, I barely know any DETAILS
> about the people I work with, because there is never time to get to know
> them that well, but I can tell you a lot about their CHARACTER.
Oh no, you're not one of those "body language" people, are you?
> > Not all men are like that........Hell, some guys aren't even expecting a
> > woman to "put out" on the first few dates or even the first few months. I
> > think you are attracted to the wrong kind of men (you know, the bad ones).
Not all men expect a woman to "put out" after the first few months, either.
> I'M not attracted to THEM, they're attracted to me. All the men I like
> are married already. :( But if a guy expresses an interest in me, and
> I wasn't interested in them already, I try to give them a shot, because
> letting someone know that you like them that way is a scary thing, you
> know? And I feel at least the guy deserves a CHANCE for being so brave,
> right? But they universally seem to blow it by trying to push things too
> far, too fast.
Let me get this one straight : if a guy expresses an interest in YOU, but
you aren't interested in HIM, then you'll "give him a shot" (go out with
him?), even though YOU aren't interested in HIM and thus such a relationship
has almost no chance of success.
Over in this country we have a phrase for this kind of thing: "Leading guys on"
> I'm not attracted to assholes. Assholes are attracted to me. I'm
> attracted to married men. I'm serious. I've met a total of THREE
> married men in the last year alone that I think are just great.
> Except... they're married!
Interesting. Are you attracted to these men because :
(a) They're married, so you can't have them
(the "apple scrumping" theory)
(b) They're more responsible/mature than many men you meet
(c) You have a fetish about wedding rings :-)
(d) it's just co-incidence that they're married
Te2345
Hello, group. I am going to give this a try - anyone that knows me would
be amazed that I am asking for help - these words are almost not part of
my vocabulary.
In the next month, probably within about three weeks, I am going to be
separating from my husband of fourteen years. Most of the last years have
been lonely ones for me, although I have seldom been alone. To me, the
epitomy of loneliness is being in the constant company of someone with
whom you no longer "connect" in any meaningful way.
Over the years, because of my husband's own insecurities, jealousy, etc.,
I have found it easier to make him and his family my entire life, so I
have not made and/or maintained the friendships that many people have that
provide a real support system for them at times like this.
I have three male friends that know, in varying degrees, what is going on
with me right now - being men (this is a guy thing) they initially wanted
to try to "fix" it, but I think they understand now that even if I don't
have to talk about it constantly, the comfort to me is in knowing that I
*can* talk to them if I need to. The one I have known the longest and on
whom I am relying the most lives in another city - he came this week
because I asked him to, but we can't visit often. The other two are kind
and attentive but, as we all, have their own problems, and I am fearful of
upsetting the balance in our friendships by asking for too much attention.
There are two girl friends that I will talk with soon, but don't expect
too much support from them, but one will refer business to me (which is
important since I am going to be desperate for money), and the other will
invite me to help her with her kids and get me out doing things with them,
which is also important - I will probably tend to work excessive hours.
I'm not sure what I am asking for from this group, except that I am
dreading most of all the actual logistics of moving - the packing and
sorting, the leaving of the home and life we built, the failure. The
feeling that this all proves what a failure I have been. I was unable to
have children, and, since I was an only child, the children in my
husband's family - many neices, nephews, cousins - have been a big part of
my life and I have watched many of them grow up, and have had a real
impact on some of them as teenagers. I think I am asking you guys for
support during these interim weeks - I think that once I am alone, I will
be OK, and probably relieved. But although I know I am doing the best
thing for both of us, this is a very difficult time, and I am feeling
quite isolated - please let me know if you have been in a similar
situation and how you coped. I am working a lot, reading until I can fall
asleep, trying to work at home during the day as much as possible when my
husband is at work so I can enjoy my home and pets. I can not just leave
quickly and put us all out of this misery for financial reasons - I have
not been self employed long enough to qualify for a mortgage, and have to
get our house refinanced in his name only so I can get a place of my own
without having to worry about his not making the payments and ruining my
credit - if I went somewhere temporary I would have to spend money that is
allocated for down payment on a small house or condo - very limited funds.
Another issue: I have found myself unable to tell my mother what's
happening - she is probably stronger than I give her credit for, but I
have reached the age where we have had somewhat of a role reversal, and I
am terrified of worrying her when I should be helping to make things
easier for her.
Would be interested in hearing your ideas, suggestions, even criticisms -
I am struggling to keep everything in perspective and am so emotional
right now that I can't trust myself to make logical decisions.
Thanks-
te
Mirtika
Hi, JJF...you wrote:
<<But with
this "pursuit" thing, "no" sometimes means "yes, but I want you to crawl a
bit first".
It's very sad.>>
Yes, it is indeed sad. Another to reason to take the "no" as "no", eh?
Why crawl? Why play games?
BUT...saying that.....asking someone for a date and getting a "no" is
different from a sexual " no." After a couple of weeks, she may feel
differently about going out with you. Maybe she watched you after you
asked her out the first time, (now that you've broken the ice) and finds
something she likes about you. Or perhaps she brews it over in her mind,
and wishes she hadn't been so hasty in turning you down.
I'd recommend asking a girl out more than once....because who knows what
her mood was when you first asked? She may have had an argument with a
friend; she may have flunked a class or gotten chewed out by her boss, and
was NOT in a mood for dating; she may have had a crush on someone, but is
now over it.
The next time, the mood and mindset may be right. She may say "YES."
I can't recall where I heard this, but it was some documentary on sexual
harrassment, and two of the subjects on it discussed how they met. She
had said NO to him FIVE times before she said YES to a date. He said that
given the atmosphere of hypersensitivity to sexual harrassment today, he
wouldn't ask her out more than ONCE if he met her NOW.
They both agreed it was a tricky issue.
But you shouldn't assume that a girl says no to make a guy crawl. That's
not fair.
Mir
Love can heal when truth is found.
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
Keith Wood
In article <520a4a$c...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, te2...@aol.com (Te2345) wrote:
[Hello, group. I am going to give this a try - anyone that knows me would
[be amazed that I am asking for help - these words are almost not part of
[my vocabulary.
[In the next month, probably within about three weeks, I am going to be
[separating from my husband of fourteen years. Most of the last years have
[been lonely ones for me, although I have seldom been alone. To me, the
[epitomy of loneliness is being in the constant company of someone with
[whom you no longer "connect" in any meaningful way.
[Over the years, because of my husband's own insecurities, jealousy, etc.,
[I have found it easier to make him and his family my entire life
[Would be interested in hearing your ideas, suggestions, even criticisms -
[I am struggling to keep everything in perspective and am so emotional
[right now that I can't trust myself to make logical decisions.
First, congratulations on realizing that you can't trust yourself to
make logical decisions right now, and on asking for advice.
My first advice is DON'T RUSH unless he is physically abusive.
NOW the criticism! ;)
You don't say what, if anything, you have done to try to save your
marriage. Counseling? Books?
Second, it seems to me that if you have close relationships with
three men, your husband is justified in his jealousy -- this does NOT
mean that you HAVE been unfaithful, but I can certainly see how he
would fear that you MIGHT be.
Third, what gives you the idea that it's better to have nobody than
to be unable to "connect" with someone who loves you? Or is one of
your friends planning to be someone you can connect to?
It is the wife's job to TRAIN her husband (woof!). Generally, a wife
is more sensitive and understanding of her mate than the other way
around. We're not stupid, we're just trained from the cradle that
understanding and sensitivity are feminine traits, and we sure as
hell don't want to look feminine to our wives! Therefore, you have
to be clear with him, and I'd be willing to bet that if I talked with
him, he would say "I just wish she'd tell me what she wants -- and
not get angry when I don't always do that!"
Does he know that you're looking for the escape hatch? The only way
to know for sure is to say "I'm not happy, and I'm thinking of
divorce if we can't resolve these problems." NO CUTE LITTLE HINTS
WILL GET THE MESSAGE ACROSS.
What do you want in a man? With the proper motivation, he can BE
that for you. Give him the motivation, give him the time to change.
If he's insecure and jealous, what have you done to try to make him
more secure?
Email me if you want to talk more on this: kei...@bctv.com
>From the tone of your message, I don't think that your marriage is
doomed unless you decide that it should be. And I can promise you
that divorce won't be fun, it won't solve your problems, and it will
leave you wishing that you hadn't done it for years to come.
But don't take my word for it, read the definitive work on the
subject: "Second Chances" by Judith Wallerstein and Sandra Blakeslee.
Start with the introduction. This will tell you why you don't want
to do this.
Then read "Divorce Busting" by Michele Weiner-Davis. This will tell
you how to avoid this divorce.
You might also try "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" by John
Gray.
Also, do a Web search for Retrouvaille. This program has a
PHENOMENAL success rate in rescuing troubled marriages.
Lastly, start lurking in alt.support.divorce and reading the horror
stories of those of us who have had this terrible event in our lives.
Keith Wood
In article <51v50f$s...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mir...@aol.com (Mirtika) wrote:
[Gregory, in his rather..um...enthusiastic and bare-breasted, bare-assed
[response to Jacqueline (WHAT AN IMAGE!), wrote:
[
[<<From the way you were talking--in your first post--I pictured a
[thirty-something year old lady!>>
[
[Er..I have to admit, I was thinking late thirties, early forties, myself.
[I mean, a woman who's slogged through asshole after asshole (pardon my
[Mesopotamian), just gives me the impression of many years' worth of
[experienced. Imagine my surprise (shock) to learn that our Jacqueline is
[but nineteen.
NINETEEN?!
This is such a young age to give up on love.
I'm 39, and the woman who covenanted before God and the angels to be
with me for time and for eternity has driven me from our home (so she
could bring in a boytoy) and our children (I haven't spoken to my
daughters in nearly 2 months). Even after all that I haven't given
up on love, nor on her.
[Either way, I think there is time and hope and a good guy out there for
[Jacqueline--just relax, some girlfriend. YOU ARE YOUNG!!!!!! : > Enjoy
[that youth instead of agonizing over Mr. Right's not showing up
[post-haste.
I agree.
[<<Hello, Hello!!! You still didn't answer my question, Jac. WHY do you
[feel it is the man's responsibility to pursue the woman?
[Don't be naive, Gregory. You know darn well that women are brought up to
[give clues, flirt, but not be the ASKER.
We know this -- but modern society has made it very dangerous to be
the "asker." If someone asks a co-worker out to dinner, he can be
FIRED for committing "sexual harrassment." If he nuzzles her ear
during a good-night hug he can be accused of "sexual battery" or
attempted rape.
In 1981 Kyla and I got together because of a pun contest with
devolved into a pillow fight which then became a tickling match,
which she ended by trying to shove me (instead reflexively being
gently thrown to the carpet), after which I made up by giving her a
kiss. (There's a lot more to the story) Today I'd be in jail a year
and a day after such a series of events, not in a wedding!
[So, Jacqueline and I are just living up to the societal expectations.
[Don't blame us for behaving as programmed.
The problem is that there are too many programs for us to keep track
of. When a guy looks at a lady he wonders if she wants a caveman or
a "sensitive" guy (most of us are both, remember).
[Now..with that said---- GIRLS: Ask for those telephone numbers!!!!
[
[Greg insists! ; >
And so does Keith. Or, at least, OI will when I'm ready to consider
another relationship, sometime after this divorce Kyla wants is over
(Thanksgiving week).
[Well, when she flirted with Mr. Groper, how was she supposed to know he
[had loose hands???
[
[Although, I will say, that perhaps there is something that attracts the
[poops to Jacqueline. That's why I had queried her about what she
[considered flirtation. Some of the stuff that I've seen CALLED flirtation
[(leaning in so close that your nipples are in plain sight and twirling
[that tongue about in a gesture that says, "Call me Ms. Hoover"), I would
[consider an all out invitation to grope and grab and poke. ( I know, the
[feminists are throwing tomatoes at me, but body language is a LANGUAGE and
[it does say YES and NO in a real loud voice sometimes.) Of course, as soon
[as she said "no," a man must back off...NOW.
Yes. A "MAN" will.
[I don't say that's what happened in Jacqueline's case (clear sexual
[message to attack)....I merely speculate.
If she said no and he didn't stop, it wouldn't have matteres what she
did -- his objective seems pretty clear.
[<<Please don't EVER let
[yourself become the "other woman". FIND YOUR OWN MAN!>>
[
[I second that motion. I even triple it.
I third it. If Kyla weren't so infatuated with a married man, she'd
have been willing to talk things out instead of swapping bedmates.
[Love can heal when truth is found.
. . .but only when the lovers are both willing to try. Truth by
itself is just how one knows why he is alone.
wombn
On Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:19:38 -0700, Jacqueline Passey <j...@az.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Sep 1996 t...@delphi.com wrote:
>> >The fact is, the guys who post on this newsgroup seem for the most part
>> >exceedingly nice. Maybe she should buy a plane ticket and meet one! I
>> Actually, she made plans to do just this. Until he sent her his picture,
>> anyway.
>Silly boy. I still plan to, finances are even working out for it. But
>that still doesn't solve the problem that you LIVE over there, and I LIVE
>over here, and neither of us can really move, can we? So we can either
>give up on it ever being more then a friendship where we visit each other
>annually, or hope that the new virtual reality technologies get really,
>really good. :)
>Jacqueline Passey j...@az.com http://www.az.com/~jmp Bellingham, WA
>"It won't give up it wants me dead goddamn this noise inside my head." -NIN
Did you ever write to him to explain this???
Or did you just stop writing?
------------------------------------------
i purposely messed up my reply
address to stop getting junk mail...
take the "s" off the end.
-----------------------------------------
wombn
On Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:34:46 -0700, Jacqueline Passey <j...@az.com> wrote:
>I KNOW this isn't a personals newsgroup. I didn't WANT someone from
>Bellingham to ask me out. I didn't want ANYONE to ask me out. If I did,
>I would have posted in alt.personals. This is not alt.personals! This
>is soc.support.loneliness! So why, when I post about my particular
>circumstances leading to my loneliness, NO LESS THEN THIRTY-FOUR MEN
>EMAIL ME ASKING ME OUT!
Perhaps because loneliness is relieved by making contact with people. They
probably fingure that if you understand loneliness, then perhaps you won't
think of them as "desperate".
Seems to me you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.
OK so some asked you out. Don't respond to those. But some said, "hey
let's chat." They weren't jumping to conclusions there. They weren't
trying to "paw you right away." They were saying, "hey, let's get to know
each other. Maybe we could be friends, maybe we could be more."
If a female had written, would you have responded the same way?
>(by the way, if any of them read this: Stop emailing me. I don't have
>the time or the inclination to reply. There's too much, it's all
>pointless, I'm not even reading it anymore, I just automatically delete
>it when it arrives in my box. If you think you have something important
Cutting off your nose to spite your face.. could be a real gem among them.
And besides, if they shouldn't be using the newsgroup for personal email.
>So let's see, you're saying I should settle for a pointless long distance
>relationship,
hasn't it occured to you that you or he could MOVE if you both fall in
love?
>> Secondly, I *hate* this concept of "pursuit". It implies that it's all a
>> game... woman pretends to be coy, man must overcome her fake reservations,
>> etc. It seems a pretty dishonest way to start a relationship.
>
>"Fake" reservations? My reservations aren't faked. While I want a
>boyfriend, I want one that gives a damn about me, not someone who will
>take me for granted. Again. The concept of "pursuit" is the concept
>that the guy will show a little EFFORT to start a relationship with me
>for a change, instead of me doing all the work, being the considerate
>one, instead of me always thinking about him, how he feels, him giving
>something back, instead of just TAKING.
I agree with 100%!!! That's why I broke up with my last b/f...
But I don't call it pursuit. I call it exerting an equal effort, at least,
to develop the relationship.
>Oh, so I shouldn't be offended when I strange man I barely know who's
>TWICE MY AGE violates my personal space?
The "TWICE MY AGE" part has nothing to do with whether he's a jerk or not.
>the male gender in general has proven itself to be made up of scumbags.
The lonely and shy ones are NOT scumbags. They are the ones who tend to
care. They are lonely because they don't assume too much too soon. They
don't take advantage, in my experience.
>from there. I was asking that question once and it was one of the
>sexiest things ever said to me. A bit of a shock, but very exciting. So
>it works! Learn it! Live it! Ask before you grope!
I agree.
>> : Maybe women aren't as infuriating and confusing. I haven't decided yet.
>> Nope, I think they're more infuriating and confusing. ;-}
I disagree with this... In my experience, it's easier to understand
another woman... provided she's already dealt with her own internalized
homophobia. If she hasn't, then she's extremely confusing.
Jacqueline, I know it's frustrating. Been there, done that. Finally
learned that lots of PEOPLE are jerks and lots of other PEOPLE are really
wonderful.
Hopefully, the "I give up" part is just an expression of your frustration.
I'm 34 and haven't given up yet. Actually, I feel more hopeful NOW than I
did years ago. Especially very recently.... Wonderful unmarried guys seem
to be popping up all over the place!!!
------------------------------------------
i purposely messed up my reply
address to stop getting junk mail...
take the "s" off the end.
-----------------------------------------
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
Richard Scott Crawford
> Here here. If a woman rejects me then I'm not going to stick around pestering
> here for a date - I'm going to keep as far away from her as possible, because :
>
> (a) I respect her, and if she doesn't want to be with me then I can respect
> her feelings.
>
> (b) If I kept pestering her day after day after day then I might get her on
> a date, but because she felt sorry for me rather than because she wanted
> to.
>
> (c) I wouldn't WANT to spend too much time with someone who'd just rejected
> me!
Good points. On the other hand, though, sometimes victory goes to those
who are persistent. I remember hearing a woman refer to a guy who kept
calling her as "The thing that won't go away." Now, several years later,
she and "the thing" are still very happily married.
On the other hand (there are always at least three "hands", aren't
there?), my dad once pointed out to me that sometimes the woman would be
better off with the guy who leaves after being told "no" just once;
sometimes the guys who pester and pester are just jerks who are too
insensitive to take "no" for an answer and that can definitely cause
problems in the future.
The point is, the game is always a lot harder to play than it looks.
Richard Scott Crawford
> You have to find middle ground, not sleeping with assholes on the one
> hand, but not putting up the iron gates to shut out the nice guys you
> might meet. They're out there ... although you might need to wait a few
> years until the guys in your age group mature.
It's not a question of putting up iron gates, it's a question of what
level of intimacy you feel is appropriate when. If a woman (or a man,
for that matter) doesn't want sex, then no sex should happen, period.
End of discussion. Sex is not a tool for attraction, but a level of
intimacy which stands on its own. There are ways of attracting the men
you want without having to promise them sex.
anon...@anon.twwells.com
I agree.
anon...@anon.twwells.com
On Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:46:06 -0700, Jacqueline Passey <j...@az.com> wrote:
>I wouldn't be switching to liking women just like that, I've always liked
>women, I just haven't had any girlfriends because very few women share my
>interests (computers, science fiction) and the ones I've met that do are
there are plenty..... believe me....
>usually old enough to be my mother and weigh 400 pounds. The one I've
If you really love someone on the inside, then age and weight are
unimportant.
You seem so quick to judge people on the basis of age and looks, etc and to
use really negative words, like "slut" to describe them. So, OK, you don't
want that kind of lifestyle for yourself... but ... don't put them down
for finding their own way.
Maybe you're not as judgemental as you seem in your posts... maybe you're
just frustrated. I dunno.
anon...@anon.twwells.com
On 20 Sep 1996 18:14:39 -0400, mir...@aol.com (Mirtika) wrote:
>Gregory, in his rather..um...enthusiastic and bare-breasted, bare-assed
>response to Jacqueline (WHAT AN IMAGE!), wrote:
>
><<From the way you were talking--in your first post--I pictured a
>thirty-something year old lady!>>
me too! how can an 18 y/o be so jaded so soon?!? Did you expect to be
married by now???
>Either way, I think there is time and hope and a good guy out there for
>Jacqueline--just relax, some girlfriend. YOU ARE YOUNG!!!!!! : > Enjoy
>that youth instead of agonizing over Mr. Right's not showing up
>post-haste.
yeah... give them time to grow up!!! and yourself too!!!
>Don't be naive, Gregory. You know darn well that women are brought up to
>give clues, flirt, but not be the ASKER (Is there such a thing as an
>asker???....an askee???). It never occurred to me to ask my hubby for his
>phone number. Instead, I did all I could to let him know I'd be happy to
>give him MINE. He got the message.
we may be brought up that way, but we have brains enough to realize that
it's unfair and stop resenting it when we have to ask them.
>So, Jacqueline and I are just living up to the societal expectations.
>Don't blame us for behaving as programmed.
I think we can be blamed the minute we know that men would like us to take
the initiative too....
>Well, when she flirted with Mr. Groper, how was she supposed to know he
>had loose hands???
sometimes we have to learn the hard way what kinds of men will take a mile
and what kinds of flirting imply that mile....
><<Just because some freak is married, it does not automatically make him a
>nice guy. I'm sure some of those married guys you like are unbelievable,
>assholic legends in their own time.>>
>Hmmm...do you mean he was transformed by the power of the love of a good
>woman? The Beast turned into the Non-Assholic Prince?
>I don't know if that happens in REAL life all that often. If he was
>selfish, abusive and a quasi-rapist pre-marriage, he isn't gonna turn into
>Billy Graham just cause he said "I do."
could be they grew up....
I've gone through MY assholic spells...(not coutning the continuing PMS!!!)
hopefully I have finally grown up enough not to do that anymore....(with
the exception of PMS.... be warned)
Mirtika
Wombn wrote about the cyber-relationship betwixt Dogboy and Jacqueline
which experienced some kind of "interruptus":
<<Did you ever write to him to explain this???
Or did you just stop writing?>>
Good point! Just NOT writing would certainly lead our DB to conclude that
she had lost interest due to a photograph that showed a less than "10".
I'm glad Jacqueline got to clear that up here. : > I especially think
her explanatory post is a good thing because, after reading some old posts
by DB, it sounds as if he has a helluva lot to offer a woman.
Photo be damned! The guy's a catch!
Mir
Love can heal when truth is found.
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
Richard Scott Crawford
> > I'M not attracted to THEM, they're attracted to me. All the men I like
> > are married already. :( But if a guy expresses an interest in me, and
> > I wasn't interested in them already, I try to give them a shot, because
> > letting someone know that you like them that way is a scary thing, you
> > know? And I feel at least the guy deserves a CHANCE for being so brave,
> > right? But they universally seem to blow it by trying to push things too
> > far, too fast.
>
> you aren't interested in HIM, then you'll "give him a shot" (go out with
> him?), even though YOU aren't interested in HIM and thus such a relationship
> has almost no chance of success.
>
> Over in this country we have a phrase for this kind of thing: "Leading
>guys on"
I think this comment is unfair. I think Jacqueline is being very fair in
"giving guys a chance" even if she's not "interested in them already".
Do you expect that every date you go on has a high probability in ending
in a long-term relationship? By "giving him a shot" she admits that
there is a chance. Or at least, that's how I perceive her statement.
Telling her that she is leading guys on is unfair and, in my opinion,
uncalled for.
Frank van der Hulst
Jacqueline Passey (j...@az.com) wrote:
: On 13 Sep 1996, Mirtika wrote:
: Yeah, I met the guy 15 minutes ago. And the other one I was complaining
: about, the one that sent me screaming emails, was someone that I had met
: at a Christmas party when I was there with another guy, my date, and we
: exchanged email addresses and sent each other email and I thought we were
: having a very nice email FRIENDSHIP discussing science fiction authors
: and dishes and whatnot and suddenly when we're hanging out in person
: again he's making passes and getting fresh with me and HELLO? This was
: totally out of the blue for me. Then he sends screaming emails about all
: the "abuse" I heaped upon him. And other men off this newsgroup say it's
: my fault for not reading his signals and reacting poorly to his "more
: direct approach" (to put his hands where they weren't wanted).
I guess that I'm included amongst 'other men off this newsgroup'; perhaps
that comment was directed at one of my own postings. From that point of
view, I'd like to make it clear that I don't think it was Jacqueline's
fault. In fact, I don't think there's much to be gained by blaming either
party; I think I'm fairly safe in assuming that what transpired wasn't good
for either person.
Clearly there was a breakdown in communications; he thought you wanted to
be more intimate than you did.
Given that you can't change other people, you might want to try changing
yourself; try to get better at communicating what you want, or else get
better at choosing your friends???
: I mean,
: how am I supposed to telepathically know that some guy I had a very nice
: email friendship with, which is NOT a very close interpersonal
: relationship given that I had met him ONCE before that, and who had met
: me when I was another man's date, was interested in me? How am I
: supposed to know that?
You aren't. However, just because you first met when on a date with
another man doesn't rule you out from dating this guy. You didn't actually
say: Were you on a date when this groping occurred?
Now, let me reverse the question: How was this guy supposed to know that
you weren't interested in him? Particularly given your earlier statements
that you want and expect a man to "pursue" you?
: And why am I the unreasonable one to expect my
: personal space and my intimate body parts to be left alone, instead of
: being treated like he expected me to be some slut or something?
No-one said you were unreasonable in that way. I think its unreasonable
to blame the guy for misunderstanding the situation.
--
fra...@kai.ee.cit.ac.nz Frank van der Hulst
This is my old account. For witty signature, etc
email me at fra...@pec.co.nz.
My home page is http://www.pec.co.nz/~frankv
Te2345
In article <lMBRywUN...@bctv.com>, kei...@bctv.com (Keith Wood)
writes:
>You don't say what, if anything, you have done to try to save your
>marriage. Counseling? Books?
Counseling, no, because of our cultural difference - also the fact that
English is not his first language would make it difficult to discuss
feelings - and I have seen him put on his act in front of other people. I
am trying very hard to believe that things have/will/can change, but after
so many years of empty promises, it is my problem that I can't make myself
believe or even hope any more.
>
>Second, it seems to me that if you have close relationships with
>three men, your husband is justified in his jealousy -- this does NOT
>mean that you HAVE been unfaithful, but I can certainly see how he
>would fear that you MIGHT be.
This I have to agree with you about - tonight we had a big problem because
I was on the phone with one of these friends - and they are _ really_
friends, but, well, I know how it looks to him, and I understand why since
he's looking so hard for reasons why this has happened that will let him
off without responsibility.
>
>Third, what gives you the idea that it's better to have nobody than
>to be unable to "connect" with someone who loves you? Or is one of
>your friends planning to be someone you can connect to?
>
No, I'm not deceptive and not the sort to move into a ready made life. I
fully expect to be alone until I die.
>It is the wife's job to TRAIN her husband (woof!). Generally, a wife
>is more sensitive and understanding of her mate than the other way
>around. We're not stupid, we're just trained from the cradle that
>understanding and sensitivity are feminine traits, and we sure as
>hell don't want to look feminine to our wives! Therefore, you have
>to be clear with him, and I'd be willing to bet that if I talked with
>him, he would say "I just wish she'd tell me what she wants -- and
>not get angry when I don't always do that!"
>
>Does he know that you're looking for the escape hatch? The only way
>to know for sure is to say "I'm not happy, and I'm thinking of
>divorce if we can't resolve these problems." NO CUTE LITTLE HINTS
>WILL GET THE MESSAGE ACROSS.
>
Oh, yes, I've told him I've reached the end and we've had these
conversations over the years about what we both want and expect. But
after a couple of weeks, we're fighting again - I'm not saying it's not my
fault too, either, probably more my fault than his.
>What do you want in a man? With the proper motivation, he can BE
>that for you. Give him the motivation, give him the time to change.
>
Do you really think people can change?
>If he's insecure and jealous, what have you done to try to make him
>more secure?
>
Again, you're right. Nothing lately.
>Email me if you want to talk more on this: kei...@bctv.com
>
>>From the tone of your message, I don't think that your marriage is
>doomed unless you decide that it should be. And I can promise you
>that divorce won't be fun, it won't solve your problems, and it will
>leave you wishing that you hadn't done it for years to come.
>
Oh, I know that already.
>But don't take my word for it, read the definitive work on the
>subject: "Second Chances" by Judith Wallerstein and Sandra Blakeslee.
>Start with the introduction. This will tell you why you don't want
>to do this.
>
>Then read "Divorce Busting" by Michele Weiner-Davis. This will tell
>you how to avoid this divorce.
>
>You might also try "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" by John
>Gray.
>
>Also, do a Web search for Retrouvaille. This program has a
>PHENOMENAL success rate in rescuing troubled marriages.
>
Thanks for the references - I'll be going to the library tomorrow or
Tuesday. Also, thanks for giving me quite a bit to think about.
Mirtika
Hi, Keith.
So sorry about the home situation. It's very obvious you are hurting in a
big way. : <
I happen to be one of those old-fashioned troglodytes who thinks that
fidelity is non-negotiable--even if a relationship is falling apart. I
think couples who have SWORN to love "for better or worse" have a duty to
work out their problems ( a duty that falls equally on male and female).
If they can't find a solution, after trying like mad, then fine, they may
go their separate ways and find other mates, but only after TRYING HARD.
I do not believe ANYONE has the right to betray the vows made to another
in a sacred context. Marriage to ME is sacred, not merely a legal
arrangement.
(Although I accept that to some it is merely a legal and social contract,
which is fine for them, but in that context then adultery is still an
ethical issue.)
That said, your wife seems to be firmly in the wrong. She owes it to you
and your marriage to try to work problems out, to control her libido
(except with you), and to think of her children's well-being. Now, had
you two done the counselling, talking, striving route and failed, then
divorce becomes the last resort, and you can't blame her too much.
I do ask this: Why can't you see your daughter? And this: Why are YOU
out of the home instead of she? Why don't YOU have the kids? If she's
the one messing with the "boytoy", she's the one who should have left, no?
<<If someone asks a co-worker out to dinner, he can be
FIRED for committing "sexual harrassment.>>
Not true. If you say something crude, or act lewdly, I can see that may
be construed as harrassment. If you say, "Would you like to go out to
dinner with me on Saturday night?", no one in their right mind would
consider that harrassment (unless you ask her four times a day).
<<If he nuzzles her ear
during a good-night hug he can be accused of "sexual battery" or
attempted rape.>>
Only if she's a psycho.
<<When a guy looks at a lady he wonders if she wants a caveman or
a "sensitive" guy (most of us are both, remember). >>
Well, how about a nice middle ground, some assertiveness, some
sensitivity.
<<[Love can heal when truth is found.
. . .but only when the lovers are both willing to try. Truth by itself
is just how one knows why he is alone.>>
Absolutely. : > Do unto others....etc. If Kyla thought about the Golden
Rule a bit more and her clitoris a bit less, she wouldn't be boffing a
boytoy, she'd be working out the marital issues that led her away from
YOU.
But however this drama works out, Keith, you don't let your daughter slip
away from you. She's as much yours as she is her mom's.
Wishing you well in this lousy situation,
Mir in Miami--
who realizes that she only has Keith's part of the story, but ran with it
anyway. : >
Keith: I copied you with this posting since this is a moderated board.
If you don't like being copied, just drop me a quick email to that effect
for future reference. OK?
Love can heal when truth is found.
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
steve (s.) keppel-jones
Richard Scott Crawford <richar...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
>The point is, the game is always a lot harder to play than it looks.
And it doesn't even LOOK easy! This is not an encouraging statement.
sigh... But I'm not giving up!
-- Steve
Richard Scott Crawford
steve (s.) keppel-jones wrote:
>
> Richard Scott Crawford <richar...@geocities.com> wrote:
> >
> >The point is, the game is always a lot harder to play than it looks.
>
> And it doesn't even LOOK easy! This is not an encouraging statement.
> sigh... But I'm not giving up!
>
The games with the most challenging rules are the games that are the
most fun to play.... :) Keep the faith, my friend!
Keith Wood
In article <5267a1$b...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, te2...@aol.com (Te2345) wrote:
[In article <lMBRywUN...@bctv.com>, kei...@bctv.com (Keith Wood)
[writes:
[
[>You don't say what, if anything, you have done to try to save your
[>marriage. Counseling? Books?
[
[Counseling, no, because of our cultural difference - also the fact that
[English is not his first language would make it difficult to discuss
[feelings - and I have seen him put on his act in front of other people.
This can be a problem -- but instead of convincing yourself why
counseling won't work, give it a try. Look for a counselor who
speaks his native language.
[ I
[am trying very hard to believe that things have/will/can change, but after
[so many years of empty promises, it is my problem that I can't make myself
[believe or even hope any more.
You might consider "moral" separation. This is when you separate for
the specific reason of giving each other the motivation and room to
change SO THAT YOU CAN STAY TOGETHER.
[>Second, it seems to me that if you have close relationships with
[>three men, your husband is justified in his jealousy -- this does NOT
[>mean that you HAVE been unfaithful, but I can certainly see how he
[>would fear that you MIGHT be.
[
[This I have to agree with you about - tonight we had a big problem because
[I was on the phone with one of these friends - and they are _ really_
[friends, but, well, I know how it looks to him, and I understand why since
[he's looking so hard for reasons why this has happened that will let him
[off without responsibility.
My wife has a number of male friends. Every time I got the the point
where I was okay with it, something would shake my confidence. It
turns out that she was only having an affair with one of them.
[>Third, what gives you the idea that it's better to have nobody than
[>to be unable to "connect" with someone who loves you? Or is one of
[>your friends planning to be someone you can connect to?
[>
[No, I'm not deceptive and not the sort to move into a ready made life. I
[fully expect to be alone until I die.
I am alone. It's miserable, worse than anything I've ever
experienced in my 39 years of living, because I had love and let it
get away. I can remember what I had.
[>It is the wife's job to TRAIN her husband (woof!). Generally, a wife
[>is more sensitive and understanding of her mate than the other way
[>around. We're not stupid, we're just trained from the cradle that
[>understanding and sensitivity are feminine traits, and we sure as
[>hell don't want to look feminine to our wives! Therefore, you have
[>to be clear with him, and I'd be willing to bet that if I talked with
[>him, he would say "I just wish she'd tell me what she wants -- and
[>not get angry when I don't always do that!"
[>
[>Does he know that you're looking for the escape hatch? The only way
[>to know for sure is to say "I'm not happy, and I'm thinking of
[>divorce if we can't resolve these problems." NO CUTE LITTLE HINTS
[>WILL GET THE MESSAGE ACROSS.
[>
[
[Oh, yes, I've told him I've reached the end and we've had these
[conversations over the years about what we both want and expect.
NO NO NO NO NO! "I've reached the end" is cutespeak.
"Honey, I don't want to divorce, but I don't see any choice. Can you
help me find a way that we can stay together? I want to find a
counselor to help us. Do you know of one that is any good?"
[ But
[after a couple of weeks, we're fighting again - I'm not saying it's not my
[fault too, either, probably more my fault than his.
Talk to him about this. "Honey, what do I keep doing that causes
problems between us? You do some things too, but let's deal with my
problems first, okay?"
[>What do you want in a man? With the proper motivation, he can BE
[>that for you. Give him the motivation, give him the time to change.
[>
[Do you really think people can change?
OH MY GOD YES!!!!
I was angry and jealous and scared that I would lose Kyla. When we
separated, I went through such a change in such a short time that
people who have known us for years went "WOW!"
Even when it became clear that she had someone else and didn't care
how much I improved, I kept working to be better simply because I
don't want to be what I was before.
And that was only in March.
[>If he's insecure and jealous, what have you done to try to make him
[>more secure?
[>
[Again, you're right. Nothing lately.
DO something.
[>Email me if you want to talk more on this: kei...@bctv.com
[>
[>>From the tone of your message, I don't think that your marriage is
[>doomed unless you decide that it should be. And I can promise you
[>that divorce won't be fun, it won't solve your problems, and it will
[>leave you wishing that you hadn't done it for years to come.
[>
[Oh, I know that already.
Then why are you considering it? Live for the "Us" that you and your
husband are. Even if the marriage ends, you will be better for it.
But remember that making YOU better will make the MARRIAGE better.
[>But don't take my word for it, read the definitive work on the
[>subject: "Second Chances" by Judith Wallerstein and Sandra Blakeslee.
[>Start with the introduction. This will tell you why you don't want
[>to do this.
[>
[>Then read "Divorce Busting" by Michele Weiner-Davis. This will tell
[>you how to avoid this divorce.
[>
[>You might also try "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" by John
[>Gray.
[>
[>Also, do a Web search for Retrouvaille. This program has a
[>PHENOMENAL success rate in rescuing troubled marriages.
[>
[Thanks for the references - I'll be going to the library tomorrow or
[Tuesday. Also, thanks for giving me quite a bit to think about.
I consider divorce to be a tragedy, and an avoidable disaster.
JJF
In article <5217ao$k...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
mir...@aol.com (Mirtika) wrote:
> BUT...saying that.....asking someone for a date and getting a "no" is
> different from a sexual " no."
???
Sorry, but I don't have the foggiest what you're on about here.
> After a couple of weeks, she may feel
> differently about going out with you. Maybe she watched you after you
> asked her out the first time, (now that you've broken the ice) and finds
> something she likes about you. Or perhaps she brews it over in her mind,
> and wishes she hadn't been so hasty in turning you down.
>
> I'd recommend asking a girl out more than once....because who knows what
> her mood was when you first asked? She may have had an argument with a
> friend; she may have flunked a class or gotten chewed out by her boss, and
> was NOT in a mood for dating; she may have had a crush on someone, but is
> now over it.
>
> The next time, the mood and mindset may be right. She may say "YES."
Aye, you have a point here. People change, situations change, maybe even I
might change one day.
I guess I must have been a bit too sensitive!
> But you shouldn't assume that a girl says no to make a guy crawl. That's
> not fair.
Velly true. My attitude to such things has always being to treat a "no" as
if it means "no", and if she wants me to crawl then it won't change my
reaction one little bit anyway. I don't play games with people and I don't
like them to play games with me.
OTOH, as you say, the "no" might not be forever...
Etoian Shrdlu
anon...@anon.twwells.com wrote:
>I'm 34 and haven't given up yet. Actually, I feel more hopeful NOW than I
>did years ago. Especially very recently.... Wonderful unmarried guys seem
>to be popping up all over the place!!!
I'm not quite where you are yet Anon, but damn, I definitely think
there's something to be said for NOT being 20-something or
teen-something and on-the-market. I hope wonderful, unmarried women
start materializing once I'm ready for another relationship.
Mirtika
Hi, Johnny!
You wrote:
<<Anyway, what it sounded like Jacqueline was saying was that if a guy was
NICE
to her and expressed an interest in her then she'd go out with him just
because
he was NICE and had asked nicely, and not necessarily because she LIKED
him.
IMHO, this is extremely hurtful, as well as patronising in the extreme.
It is
saying to the guy "You've got no chance of finding a date on merit, but I
feel
sorry for you, I'll give you a chance.">>
I have to disagree. Did you ever think that she might go out with a
"nice" guy who didn't necessarily ring her feminine bells from the get-go,
because she hoped that the date might reveal something about him that
would lead to what you call "like"?
So many gentlemen on these boards would be delighted, I think, to have a
girl give them a shot like this. I don't see it as patronizing. I see it
as saying, "Well, he's a good person it seems. I'm not shaking with
desire over here. But hey, let me spend an evening or two with him and
see if I end up feeling more than 'okay', to see if something might
develop.....who knows? Could be Mr. Right."
I'm sorry if that's something offensive to you, a mercy date, as it were.
>From my point of view, it's more of an exploratory date, with fingers
crossed.
Oh.....and you were confused by something I wrote about how getting a "no"
for asking someone out is different from a 'no" regarding sex. (We had
been discussing Jacqueline's groper guy.)
If a man presses himself for sex on a woman and she says NO...that is to
be taken as absolute.
If a man asks a woman on a date and she says no, then I think it's okay
for a man to ask again, on another occasion, if he's got the nerve. (Of
course, the guy should look at cues. If she sneers, makes the puking
sound, shudders and such when she says "no"--that ought to be taken as an
ABSOLUTE no.....with the understanding that the woman in question has no
manners and is an insensitive b***h, too.)
I hope I cleared that up. : >
Mir in Miami, on the day after the lovely lunar eclipse.
Love can heal when truth is found.
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
TBrant1
In article <zZCSywUN...@bctv.com>, kei...@bctv.com (Keith Wood)
writes:
> I kept working to be better simply because I
>don't want to be what I was before.
>
>And that was only in March.
>
>
I, too, a love in March - to the disease of alcoholism. He has begun to
recover, and wants to make amends, but I find I am not the person I used
to be - I'm better. I have moved beyond the point where I will accept his
behavior. I am lonely now, but this seems a small price to pay for the
positive changes in my life. I pan to become such a wonderful person that
I will not be lonely for long - either becasue I will find someone
equally wonderful or because I will become comfortable just being with my
wonderful self. If anyone disagrees, don't burst my bubble.
Tracy
JJF
In article <19960925....@zetnet.co.uk>, I wrote:
> I'm sorry if you feed offended by my allegation that this is "leading guys
> on", Jacqueline - it's a phrase that triggers all sorts of emotions and
> indicates some concepts that I didn't intend, but sadly I think that it is
> appropriate.
Duh! I was going to edit this before I sent it out, but in my eagerness to
send another email I forgot! It should have ended "...triggers all sorts
of emotions and indicates concepts which I didn't intend, and although it
is slightly appropriate is does diverge from the point I was making. So I
apologise again for any offence caused."
Sorry...
Frank van der Hulst
JJF (Joh...@zetnet.co.uk) wrote:
: Anyway, what it sounded like Jacqueline was saying was that if a guy was NICE
: to her and expressed an interest in her then she'd go out with him just
because
: he was NICE and had asked nicely, and not necessarily because she LIKED him.
: IMHO, this is extremely hurtful, as well as patronising in the extreme. It is
: saying to the guy "You've got no chance of finding a date on merit, but I feel
: sorry for you, I'll give you a chance."
: No matter how much I might LIKE a girl, I don't want to go on a date with her
: just because she feels sorry for me.
Johnny,
I think you're building things out of proportion here. And perhaps making life
difficult for yourself.
I go on "dates" because they're fun. Any chance of a long-term relationship
is a bonus; the important thing is that going out for an evening is an end
unto itself. IMHO, your approach will lead to few dates, because there
just aren't many women who'd meet your criteria. And any dates you do go
on become big deals, with lots of attendant stress and pressure, and therefore
no fun (and probably therefore unsuccessful in terms of finding a longterm
partner).
I think it's a bit much to expect a woman to LIKE you up front; part of the
dating thing is to get to know each other.
Frank.
--
fra...@kai.ee.cit.ac.nz Frank van der Hulst
This is my old account. For witty signature, etc
email me at fra...@pec.co.nz.
My home page is http://www.pec.co.nz/~frankv
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
JJF
In article <52guij$a...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
mir...@aol.com (Mirtika) wrote:
> Hi, Johnny!
Whoops - a major mailer problem here! :-) Hello, anyway.
> You wrote:
> I have to disagree. Did you ever think that she might go out with a
> "nice" guy who didn't necessarily ring her feminine bells from the get-go,
> because she hoped that the date might reveal something about him that
> would lead to what you call "like"?
Heee Ho Hum. I can't pretend to be an expert on women, but I personally think
that such... exploration?... is better carried out in a non-dating environment;
that way, no chance of misunderstanding and nobody gets hurt if the guy
DOESN'T have any hidden qualities the girls finds attractive...
> So many gentlemen on these boards would be delighted, I think, to have a
> girl give them a shot like this. I don't see it as patronizing. I see it
> as saying, "Well, he's a good person it seems. I'm not shaking with
> desire over here. But hey, let me spend an evening or two with him and
> see if I end up feeling more than 'okay', to see if something might
> develop.....who knows? Could be Mr. Right."
It's a moot point, but I suppose it does depend on how you term "dating". Over
here, it's perfectly possible to get to know someone without dating them.
(OTOH, I did last week write an article on why a guy wouldn't like to hang
around someone who's rejected him... Yeek, tricky business, this.)
> I'm sorry if that's something offensive to you, a mercy date, as it were.
> >From my point of view, it's more of an exploratory date, with fingers
> crossed.
Well, ja, but apart from anything else the guy could easily miscontrue it
as something more. Don't forget that Jacqueline was talking about guys
who "expressed an interest in her" (which I interpret as something more than
just "you wanna come to the pictures on Friday?"), though just how you express
an "interest" in a girl, short of falling to your knees and proclaiming
undying love, I'm not sure... :-) Blugh. I stray from the point. However,
by accepting a date pinned to such a "declaration of interest", the guy
could easily gain the impression that the girl reciprocates his feelings...
> Oh.....and you were confused by something I wrote about how getting a "no"
> for asking someone out is different from a 'no" regarding sex. (We had
> been discussing Jacqueline's groper guy.)
>
> If a man presses himself for sex on a woman and she says NO...that is to
> be taken as absolute.
>
> If a man asks a woman on a date and she says no, then I think it's okay
> for a man to ask again, on another occasion, if he's got the nerve. (Of
> course, the guy should look at cues. If she sneers, makes the puking
> sound, shudders and such when she says "no"--that ought to be taken as an
> ABSOLUTE no.....with the understanding that the woman in question has no
> manners and is an insensitive b***h, too.)
>
> I hope I cleared that up. : >
Cheerz - I had thought you were saying something else entirely...
Richard Scott Crawford
TBrant1 wrote:
> I pan to become such a wonderful person that
> I will not be lonely for long - either becasue I will find someone
> equally wonderful or because I will become comfortable just being with my
> wonderful self. If anyone disagrees, don't burst my bubble.
I'm not going to disagree. I'm just going to say that this is the best
plan I've ever heard from anybody! Good work! Keep it up!
-Richard
Ellen B. Edgerton
: TBrant1 wrote:
: > I pan to become such a wonderful person that
: > I will not be lonely for long - either becasue I will find someone
: > equally wonderful or because I will become comfortable just being with my
: > wonderful self. If anyone disagrees, don't burst my bubble.
That is the best thing I've read in a long time! Ooh, cut it out and
FRAME it!
Good luck sir!
JJF
In article <324d8...@cscnews.cit.ac.nz>,
fra...@ee.cit.ac.nz (Frank van der Hulst) wrote:
> JJF (Joh...@zetnet.co.uk) wrote:
>> Anyway, what it sounded like Jacqueline was saying was that if a guy was
>> NICE to her and expressed an interest in her then she'd go out with him
>> just because he was NICE and had asked nicely, and not necessarily because
>> she LIKED him.
>>
>> IMHO, this is extremely hurtful, as well as patronising in the extreme. It
>> is saying to the guy "You've got no chance of finding a date on merit, but
>> I feel sorry for you, I'll give you a chance."
>
>> No matter how much I might LIKE a girl, I don't want to go on a date with
>> her just because she feels sorry for me.
>
> Johnny,
Erm, it's actually JJF. It only said "Johnny" because of a problem with my
mailer. (and no, my real name is not "Johnny".)
> I think you're building things out of proportion here. And perhaps making life
> difficult for yourself.
>
> I go on "dates" because they're fun. Any chance of a long-term relationship
> is a bonus; the important thing is that going out for an evening is an end
> unto itself.
I agree totally - the whole point of a date is for both participants to enjoy
themselves. Whether or not this actually happens is how I would judge the
"success" of a date. I didn't mention long-term relationships anywhere.
Now, I ask a question : would YOU enjoy a date with a girl who didn't
LIKE you, and was only with you because she felt sorry for you?
> IMHO, your approach will lead to few dates, because there
> just aren't many women who'd meet your criteria. And any dates you do go
> on become big deals, with lots of attendant stress and pressure, and therefore
> no fun (and probably therefore unsuccessful in terms of finding a longterm
> partner).
It's hard to list things like this, but here's some criteria I expect
potential dates to meet :
(a) They have to LIKE me
(b) I have to LIKE them
(c) We have to have compatible senses of humour
Surely that's not asking too much?
(BTW, you're right that if you go into a date looking for a long-term
relationship you'll be MASSIVELY stressed out and have a very small chance
of success).
> I think it's a bit much to expect a woman to LIKE you up front; part of the
> dating thing is to get to know each other.
I didn't mean "LIKE" in quite the "sudden and unmistakable undying LOVE"
sense! :-) I personally think it's best to get a bit of an idea what
someone is like before you start to date, then find out more about them
as you date. OTOH. maybe I'm just weird...
Frank van der Hulst
JJF (J...@zetnet.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <324d8...@cscnews.cit.ac.nz>,
: fra...@ee.cit.ac.nz (Frank van der Hulst) wrote:
: > JJF (Joh...@zetnet.co.uk) wrote:
: >> No matter how much I might LIKE a girl, I don't want to go on a date with
: >> her just because she feels sorry for me.
: >
: > Johnny,
: Erm, it's actually JJF. It only said "Johnny" because of a problem with my
: mailer. (and no, my real name is not "Johnny".)
Oops, sorry. Just trying to be friendly.
: > I go on "dates" because they're fun. Any chance of a long-term relationship
: > is a bonus; the important thing is that going out for an evening is an end
: > unto itself.
: I agree totally - the whole point of a date is for both participants to enjoy
: themselves. Whether or not this actually happens is how I would judge the
: "success" of a date. I didn't mention long-term relationships anywhere.
: Now, I ask a question : would YOU enjoy a date with a girl who didn't
: LIKE you, and was only with you because she felt sorry for you?
I'm not sure why you always use capitals for LIKE... I'm assuming you intend
to emphasise it, so that it means more than just "like"... ie some commitment,
love (if not undying). What I'm saying is that a date based on 'like' instead
of 'LIKE' is quite acceptable. Perhpas think of it this way: If a *male*
friend said "Come on, let's go to the pictures" you might feel happy to
accept, without the need for him to LIKE you, or you to LIKE him.
As for a girl dating me because she feels sorry for me: It doesn't help to
try to psycho-analyse your date. The fact that she's going out with me
indicates that she likes me, and wants to spend some time with me. I don't
think that anyone who didn't like you would go out with you just for
sympathy's sake. And, after all, the fact that someone feels sorry for you
and is prepared to do something about it indicates that they do actually
like you... ie I don't think there's such a thing as a pure 'mercy date'.
: I didn't mean "LIKE" in quite the "sudden and unmistakable undying LOVE"
: sense! :-) I personally think it's best to get a bit of an idea what
: someone is like before you start to date, then find out more about them
: as you date. OTOH. maybe I'm just weird...
No, you're not just wierd. Either you're normal, or everyone's wierd :-)
Frank.
--
fra...@kai.ee.cit.ac.nz Frank van der Hulst
This is my old account. For witty signature, etc
email me at fra...@pec.co.nz.
My home page is http://www.pec.co.nz/~frankv
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support |
JJF
[Quoting trimmed - Mod]
fra...@ee.cit.ac.nz (Frank van der Hulst) wrote:
> JJF (J...@zetnet.co.uk) wrote:
> Oops, sorry. Just trying to be friendly.
That's ok, no offence taken.
> I'm not sure why you always use capitals for LIKE... I'm assuming you intend
> to emphasise it, so that it means more than just "like"... ie some commitment,
> love (if not undying). What I'm saying is that a date based on 'like' instead
> of 'LIKE' is quite acceptable. Perhpas think of it this way: If a *male*
> friend said "Come on, let's go to the pictures" you might feel happy to
> accept, without the need for him to LIKE you, or you to LIKE him.
Well, around here "like" sometimes means "not dislike" - I was using "LIKE"
because I actually did mean "like", and not "not dislike". (Yech, double-nots,
reminds me of school...)
> As for a girl dating me because she feels sorry for me: It doesn't help to
> try to psycho-analyse your date. The fact that she's going out with me
> indicates that she likes me, and wants to spend some time with me. I don't
> think that anyone who didn't like you would go out with you just for
> sympathy's sake. And, after all, the fact that someone feels sorry for you
> and is prepared to do something about it indicates that they do actually
> like you... ie I don't think there's such a thing as a pure 'mercy date'.
Well, I'll be truthful and say that it has never happened to me (I hope!),
but it's something I have a bit of a phobia about... (and anyone who tries
to psychoanalyse ME from that statement deserves all they get! :-) ) Maybe
I'm overestimating the kindness and philanthroponism (?) of the female gender
in general... (Hope so!)
JJF.