Terry Mulholland
Doug Childers
lucky to get a class-act like Terry. He'll do anything he can to help the
team and hes a geniuely nice person.
Thanks in advance,
Doug Childers
Derek Davison
<dougch...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Im an Atlanta fan wondering how Terry's spring has been. You guys are
> real lucky to get a class-act like Terry. He'll do anything he can to
> help the team and hes a geniuely nice person.
Really? Will he give back some of the money that he's being overpaid this
year? That would help the team a lot.
Derek
Tiger59
me
not want to. Why is it that most of the Pirate's fans are such pesimists
and poor
spirited. YES! I am aware that the teams have sucked since 1992, but for
Pete's sake,
give Terry Mulholland a break! He made it to the majors while you, me, and
everybody
else in the newsgroup only wish they had!
Terry will be good influence to the young pitching staff, and give us some
innings when
the staff needs it the most. Besides, Derek hates him because he is making
$3mil. How
do you feel about the ones that make 5 times that and sit on the bench
because they are
sore or their back hurts (when it is obvious that they are being
primadonas?? Remember
Griffey sitting out a few games because he ws pouting over a spat with his
father, a Reds
coach?!! At least Mulholland goes out there every day and does his best!
Derek, with all due respect - GROW UP!
Mike Corujo
Marietta, GA
Let's go Bucs!!!
PS.
Let me make one thing very clear - C.M.G! (Cam must go!) <- one of the
few points made
in this newsgroup that I agree with!!! Giving Young and Mears those big
long term contracts
was worse than when Jimmy Carter sent the Army to rescue the hostages in
Iran and the
copters and planes crashed into each other, embarassing the nation!
Arghhhhhh!
galv...@stargate.net
Tiger59 wrote:
> I rarely enter any messages in the newsgroup because people like Derek make
> me not want to. Why is it that most of the Pirate's fans are such pesimists
> and poor spirited.
Why are Pirate fans such pessimists and poor spirited?
Let's see ...
>
>
> Terry will be good influence to the young pitching staff, and give us some
> innings when he staff needs it the most.
Because in addition to the fact the team HAS sucked since 92 and it will suck
again this year, we have been listen to exactly the same sort of crap about
these has been, over the hill nobodies the entire time.
The Pirates pitching staff is NOT young. The only play that qualifies as young
is Benson and the rest of them are a bunch of rag armed rehabbing zeros and
Terry Mullholland has nothing to offer any of them..
> Besides, Derek hates him because he is making
> $3mil.
I think Derek hates him because he's making three million AND he sucks AND he's
taking the spot on the roster of someone who's could be younger, could be
better, could actually improve the team AND could be earning the league minimum
at the same time.
> At least Mulholland goes out there every day and does his best!
So if I go promise to go out everyday and give my best and stink out the joint
will you pay me 3 million?
I'll tell you what I'll go out stink just like Terry Mullholland and help the
team to a last place finish AND i'll do it for only 1 million - what a bargain
huh?
>
> Derek, with all due respect - GROW UP!
No Mike, it's you that needs to grow up. The Pirates season is over before it
starts and we're sick and tired and hearing the same old BS about these veteran
losers year after year after year.
The 2001 team is probably the biggest joke Cam Bonifay has fielded to date. It
may not lose the most games of any of his teams, but at several times the
payroll of any of the others it will prove beyond any doubt what a complete
moron and incompetent Bonifay is.
The thought of the Pirates opening their brand new field with Kevin Young, Pat
Meares, Derek Bell, Mike Benjamin and Terry Mullholland on it should make every
Pirate fan projectile vomit in unison.
--
Paul Galvanek - Ver. 3.5
-
Derek Davison
wrote:
> I rarely enter any messages in the newsgroup because people like Derek
> make me
> not want to. Why is it that most of the Pirate's fans are such pesimists
> and poor
> spirited. YES! I am aware that the teams have sucked since 1992,
..and there's not really much chance that they'll stop sucking anytime in
the near future. If you're OPTIMISTIC about this team's chances, I need to
know what color the sky is in your world.
> but for
> Pete's sake,
> give Terry Mulholland a break! He made it to the majors while you, me,
> and everybody
> else in the newsgroup only wish they had!
..and he's been a mediocre pitcher his whole career. Now he's 38. A team
that was one lefty reliever away from the postseason with a huge bankroll
would still be pretty boneheaded to shell out $3 million for Terry
Mulholland. The Pirates are downright moronic for doing it. But we
already knew that.
>
> Terry will be good influence to the young pitching staff, and give us some
> innings when
> the staff needs it the most.
A good influence and a nice middle reliever are not worth $3 million per
year. Particularly not from a 38 year old on a team that should be
rebuilding with young players.
> Besides, Derek hates him because he is
> making $3mil. How
> do you feel about the ones that make 5 times that and sit on the bench
> because they are
> sore or their back hurts (when it is obvious that they are being
> primadonas?? Remember
> Griffey sitting out a few games because he ws pouting over a spat with his
> father, a Reds
> coach?!! At least Mulholland goes out there every day and does his best!
So I should go overpay Terry Mulholland because he's a nice guy who tries
hard? No, sorry. I'd take any five of Griffey's bats over Mulholland at
this stage of their careers.
>
> Derek, with all due respect - GROW UP!
I'll make you a deal. I'll grow up if you'll pull your head out of your
ass. If the overpaying of Terry Mulholland excites you, then you're
exactly the kind of mark that the Bucs are targeting.
>
> Mike Corujo
> Marietta, GA
> Let's go Bucs!!!
>
> PS.
>
> Let me make one thing very clear - C.M.G! (Cam must go!) <- one of the
> few points made
> in this newsgroup that I agree with!!! Giving Young and Mears those big
> long term contracts
> was worse than when Jimmy Carter sent the Army to rescue the hostages in
> Iran and the
> copters and planes crashed into each other, embarassing the nation!
> Arghhhhhh!
Um, yeah. We're not completely out of touch with reality, are we?
Derek
Tiger59
see whatever credentials make you the EXPERT of the group!
Boy, do you contribute a lot of crap! Unbelievable!
Mr. Expert, I agree that the Pirates have been the embarassment
of the decade, but look at the Steelers, not much better. They
are small-market teams that can only do so much. No money,
no stars. Do you know what goes behind the scenes whenever
Cam tries to recruite players?? Has it crossed your mind that
maybe NOBODY wants to play in Pittsburgh because of its
location and climate??!! Hmmm...if you had the choice between
Marlins and Pirates, would you give up 'babes' in So. Beach;
fishing in the Keys; or maybe the tropical life of Miami??
I respect your comments up until the point were you start
'guessing' what happens behind the scenes. I played in Bradenton
1981-83 and could blow your mind with the crap that goes on when
one in 25 players had potential. Sad thing is that once they
have one or two good seasons, Pitt is the last city they want to
live in. Yes, if they are 30-35 years old, they resign themselves
to living in the 'Steel City'. But again, if I made a few millions in
salary for doing what I enjoy doing (playing ball) and I had a choice
between Pitt, Miami, LA, even NY...well, unless I was born and
raised in a small city, ask Rodriguez, Sheffield, Chipper, Javy, Green,
etc., where they would rather play (and live!)
Give the Bucs a break! So you are a fan...does that give you owner-
ship of the team? Does it make you some expert?? I do not
think so!
You say I should grow up?!! Dude, you are the one who is going
to have a stroke early on in life worrying about crap that people
with a LIFE should not be losing sleep over.
AMEN!
And don't bother with some long-detailed crap response, trying to
insult me. I do HAVE A LIFE and no matter what you say:
1. You will not get to me!
2. Cam will probably remain in office for a few more years
(unfortunatelly!)
3. The Bucs will not break .500 anytime soon
But you know what????
LET'S GO BUCS!!!
Mike Corujo
Marietta, GA
Tiger59
and blend yourself off the newsgroup. Else, rename
the newsgroup the "Bitches of Steel City" so that the
fans that want to support the team know to steer clear
off you two losers!
LET'S GO BUCS!!!
PS.
I can't have my head up my ass. You have that market
completely monopolized, along with your butt-buddy Paul!
Alan & Erin Williams
> Tiger59 wrote:
>
> > I rarely enter any messages in the newsgroup because people like Derek make
> > me not want to. Why is it that most of the Pirate's fans are such pesimists
> > and poor spirited.
>
> Why are Pirate fans such pessimists and poor spirited?
Please note the distinction between Pirate fans and posters to this newsgroup, not
the same set.
> Let's see ...
>
> >
> >
> > Terry will be good influence to the young pitching staff, and give us some
> > innings when he staff needs it the most.
>
> Because in addition to the fact the team HAS sucked since 92 and it will suck
> again this year, we have been listen to exactly the same sort of crap about
> these has been, over the hill nobodies the entire time.
>
> The Pirates pitching staff is NOT young. The only play that qualifies as young
> is Benson and the rest of them are a bunch of rag armed rehabbing zeros and
> Terry Mullholland has nothing to offer any of them..
rag-armed, rehabbing zeros...now that's low. Here's hoping you get to catch
Schmidt with your teeth while *that* zero is rehabbing....
>
>
> > Besides, Derek hates him because he is making
>
> > $3mil.
>
> I think Derek hates him because he's making three million AND he sucks AND he's
> taking the spot on the roster of someone who's could be younger, could be
> better, could actually improve the team AND could be earning the league minimum
> at the same time.
You know, in your own line of work there is likely a new college graduate willing
to take your job for one-third of your pay...maybe someone should point that out
to Human Resources tomorrow.
>
>
> > At least Mulholland goes out there every day and does his best!
>
> So if I go promise to go out everyday and give my best and stink out the joint
> will you pay me 3 million?
>
> I'll tell you what I'll go out stink just like Terry Mullholland and help the
> team to a last place finish AND i'll do it for only 1 million - what a bargain
> huh?
>
I think you just failed on the point the poster was admiring Mulholland for, his
attitude. Only Bucs reports that Mulholland was teaching the Pirate pitchers his
pick-off move...what would you teach them, how to whine?
There @280,000,000 people in this country...and about 1,000 major leaguers. I
doubt you can claim any skill that moves you into that percentile in any field.
>
> >
> > Derek, with all due respect - GROW UP!
>
> No Mike, it's you that needs to grow up. The Pirates season is over before it
> starts and we're sick and tired and hearing the same old BS about these veteran
> losers year after year after year.
Oh yes, you are *owed* a winner...probably because you are long-suffering and your
intelligence is so insulted by the avoidable lack of success in this
ball-and-stick game. And by the way, drop the 'we'. You speak for yourself,
okay?
>
> The 2001 team is probably the biggest joke Cam Bonifay has fielded to date. It
> may not lose the most games of any of his teams, but at several times the
> payroll of any of the others it will prove beyond any doubt what a complete
> moron and incompetent Bonifay is.
And of course who can enjoy a ball game if the Pirates don't win?
>
> The thought of the Pirates opening their brand new field with Kevin Young, Pat
> Meares, Derek Bell, Mike Benjamin and Terry Mullholland on it should make every
> Pirate fan projectile vomit in unison.
Wonder what the Pirates think of opening their new ballpark with chuckleheads like
you in the stands?
Your attitude is awful and you whine and complain. Too bad you can't put a
spectator on the waiver wire.
Alan
Doug Childers
doing. He will benefit your ballclub. He is a team leader who wants to
help out the team the best he can. Why dont you accept the fact that you
paid for more off the field qualities that you paid for on-the-field
qualities. Terry will benefit your pitching staff in more ways than you can
deem possible.
Doug
Brett Wilson
: Has it crossed your mind that
: maybe NOBODY wants to play in Pittsburgh because of its
: location and climate??!! Hmmm...if you had the choice between
: Marlins and Pirates, would you give up 'babes' in So. Beach;
: fishing in the Keys; or maybe the tropical life of Miami??
That must be why the Marlins sign all the top free agents. &@#!^($*
large-market teams. --BW.
Tiger59
wants to play in Pitt must be acknowledged!
The point that I took advantage of, after a year of
reading their crap, is that these two "EXPERTS" need
to stay home and watch soap operas instead of being
online writing their 'expert opinion', which amounts to
the same crap all the time: SHIT!
Did not mean it as anything negative towards you!
Mike
Tiger59
to believe that Paul and that other schmuck were the only
few people using the newsgroup! (Whew!)
Amigo, you hit the nail on the head! These two must be
XFL or Tractor Pull fans that are disguised as baseball
fans in order to get a little attention since nobody in their
regular spectator sport lets them talk!! HAHAHA!
LET'S GO BUCS!!
Mike C.
Mr. Brian Allen
willing
> to take your job for one-third of your pay...maybe someone should point
that out
> to Human Resources tomorrow.
If Paul was as bad in his line of field as the Pirates are in theirs, Paul
would probably VOLUNTEER to have a youngster take his place.
The brain of the brain-washer has itself been washed.
E.H. Carr, What is History?
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Alan & Erin Williams
> > You know, in your own line of work there is likely a new college graduate
> willing
> > to take your job for one-third of your pay...maybe someone should point
> that out
> > to Human Resources tomorrow.
>
> If Paul was as bad in his line of field as the Pirates are in theirs, Paul
> would probably VOLUNTEER to have a youngster take his place.
>
To be as good as the Pirates worst player, relative to the population, Paul
must be better than 279,999 out 280,000 people.
That's the odds of living to 105, having a net worth of more than a billion
dollars.... only 3.59 people per million. Think about it.
Sure, it's a free country and no one (but yourself) can prevent you from
spouting your opinion. But the odds that Paul is as good at his job as the
lowliest Major League scrub are not good, not good at all.
One of the drawbacks of being a public figure is that every aspect of your
perfomance is open to public comment. How about it fellows? Want to post
your IQ scores? Your SATs? Your GPAs? Your salaries, attendance and
personnel records? How about your business addresses and phone numbers? Then
we can set up webcams to show you at work, count the coffee breaks and cook up
some productivity statistics.
Then Kendall, Young, Meares, Schmidt and Cam Bonifay can post to a newsgroup
about how badly you suck compared to Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.
Alan
Dan Szymborski
says...
[...]
> One of the drawbacks of being a public figure is that every aspect of your
> perfomance is open to public comment. How about it fellows? Want to post
> your IQ scores? Your SATs? Your GPAs? Your salaries, attendance and
> personnel records? How about your business addresses and phone numbers? Then
> we can set up webcams to show you at work, count the coffee breaks and cook up
> some productivity statistics.
Alan, this is a straw-man argument and you damn well know it. I've read
all of your postings during your occasional runs of newsgroup activity
and I think you're well above this silly "Let's see you do better than
Pat Meares!" line of "reasoning."
--
Dan Szymborski
"Experience is a revelation in the light of which we renounce our errors
of youth for those of age."
- Ambrose Bierce
Alan & Erin Williams
> In article <3AAB8B1D...@mindspring.com>, will...@mindspring.com
> says...
>
> [...]
>
> > One of the drawbacks of being a public figure is that every aspect of your
> > perfomance is open to public comment. How about it fellows? Want to post
> > your IQ scores? Your SATs? Your GPAs? Your salaries, attendance and
> > personnel records? How about your business addresses and phone numbers? Then
> > we can set up webcams to show you at work, count the coffee breaks and cook up
> > some productivity statistics.
>
> Alan, this is a straw-man argument and you damn well know it. I've read
> all of your postings during your occasional runs of newsgroup activity
> and I think you're well above this silly "Let's see you do better than
> Pat Meares!" line of "reasoning."
>
Yeah, I got a little emotional. I didn't think that calling the Pirate staff
'rag-armed rehabbing zeros' was particularly fair. Because of my work with USOC I
have at least some idea of what it takes to be an 'elite athlete'.
If you want to claim that there's a pitcher out there with Mullholland's skills and
experience for less than $3 mil, then identify him. But that is no reason to
insult Mullholland, Young, Meares or any of the other athletes on the team.
Paul's on record as seeing that he knows "for a fact" that he and others posting to
Usenet could turn in a better job performance than Cam Bonifay, even though he
admits to **zero** baseball or managerial experience.
While he may think so, (and I won't even touch how delusional that is), it rankles
me that he spews such venom at the individual players. No doubt *that* attitude
would make him a great GM.
Most of us should be grateful that we are not exposed to the kind of merciless
day-to-day evaluations that an elite athlete encounters. To have those
evaluations then commented on by the armchair quarterbacks gets under my skin. To
aggravate matters, Paul expressed it as a personal betrayal that the Pirates have
been losers since 1992.
You want to criticize Jimmy Anderson for not working out off-season? I'll keep my
mouth shut. You want to potshot the GM because you think he's inept? His
decisions are out there as a matter of public record. You want to rag a guy
because he's *injured*? Then I'm probably gonna flame a response.
I'm not trying to make a straw-man, just introduce a little perspective. Few of us
would want or could survive the scrutiny a major league player endures. These
guys are weighed, measured, tested, conditioned, compared and evaluated far more
than many people realize. Even the worst of them are gifted and talented
athletes. Yes, if you can do better than Pat Meares, by all means get out there
and do it.
If you want criticize his performance or the team, at least be civil. If Paul
really thinks that the Pirate line-up disgraces their new building, I hope to high
heaven he will avoid the place. You don't like the show? Don't buy a ticket. But
buying the ticket doesn't make you an expert nor does it entitle you to attack the
people playing the game. I hope that the next time he earns his keep Paul
imagines 20,000 spectators watching him work and demanding that he deliver for them
personally.
It's not like these guys aren't working their asses off. It's not like they want
to lose. But competition at the elite level is a little hard for most of us to
imagine with any degree of accuracy.
Alan
Voros
I have a question to the group. I see the phrase "ad hominem" used a lot
on USENET. Is that what this is?
--
Voros McCracken
vo...@baseballprimer.com
http://www.baseballprimer.com
David Marc Nieporent
"Tiger59" <Tig...@iname.com> wrote:
> You know Paul, I had forgotten about you, but I would love to
> see whatever credentials make you the EXPERT of the group!
> Boy, do you contribute a lot of crap! Unbelievable!
> Mr. Expert, I agree that the Pirates have been the embarassment
> of the decade, but look at the Steelers, not much better. They
> are small-market teams that can only do so much.
Pittsburgh is the same size market as Denver, where the Rockies don't seem
to operate under the "can only do so much" principle.
> No money,
> no stars. Do you know what goes behind the scenes whenever
> Cam tries to recruite players?? Has it crossed your mind that
> maybe NOBODY wants to play in Pittsburgh because of its
> location and climate??!! Hmmm...if you had the choice between
> Marlins and Pirates, would you give up 'babes' in So. Beach;
> fishing in the Keys; or maybe the tropical life of Miami??
In the late 80s/early 90s, when the Mets, Yankees -- heck, the whole AL
East -- was sucking, Peter Gammons was trying to sell the theory that the
West Coast teams were going to permanently dominate the majors, because
free agents weren't going to play in dreary East Coast cities when they
could go west and enjoy the weather, the economy, etc. As usual, he was
confusing a normal baseball cycle with a baseball trend.
Cleveland, which isn't a whole lot different than Pittsburgh, doesn't seem
to have the same trouble with talent, do they? Ten years ago, people would
have said exactly the same things about Cleveland as you do about
Pittsburgh -- who would want to play there, in that location and climate,
if you could play in Miami?
The entire model is flawed. Teams don't become good by signing free
agents. Teams become good by developing talent. Free agents are the
difference between a contender and a champion, not the difference between a
lousy team and a champion.
The Pirates' failures are not a result of the location, climate, or market.
They are the result of incompetence in the front office. They've invested
in the wrong players, or the right players at the wrong times. And in the
last 3, 4, 5 years, they've given up any pretense of trying to build a
winner, instead going for whatever quick fix (Ed Sprague, Mike Kingery,
Turner Ward) would give them a semi-recognizable name. They'd rather
suffer through terrible years with Pat Meares or Mike Benjamin than with
Chad Hermanson or Aramis Ramirez. They'd rather take a Proven player, no
matter how bad, than an unproven one.
---------------------------------------------
David M. Nieporent niep...@alumni.princeton.edu
Voros
Wonderful argument. So essentially your point is:
So what if the Pirates lose every year, they're doing their best and
that's all we can ask.
People who have been promoted to the highest level of their chosen
profession shouldn't be held to a higher standard than those who haven't.
If MIT, suddenly appointed me head of the Operations Research department,
alumni and other contributors would be completely justified at screaming
about what a shitty move it was and how I would suck at that job.
That consumers of a product don't have a right to demand improvements to
the product or else boycott the product (Galvanek).
Consumers don't have a right to complain about the quality of a product
when there are no other alternatives of similar products. IOW, if they
want the product, they must take whatever the Pirates give them.
Mr. Brian Allen
Paul
> must be better than 279,999 out 280,000 people.
Heck, why not compare the Pirate players to their contemporaries, other
major league players? In that regard, they suck ass. Also, how do you know
that Paul DOESN'T meet the criteria that you've created? For all we know,
Paul could be Bill Gates in disguise. *shrugs shoulders* How do you know
he isn't? Furthermore, a lot of the Pirate players, Kevin Young and Pat
Meares in particular, aren't putting up the numbers that a decent AA player
could if given the chance. Think that knocks them down a bit on your scale?
Voros
>> In article <3AAB8B1D...@mindspring.com>, will...@mindspring.com
>> says...
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > One of the drawbacks of being a public figure is that every aspect of your
>> > perfomance is open to public comment. How about it fellows? Want to post
>> > your IQ scores? Your SATs? Your GPAs? Your salaries, attendance and
>> > personnel records? How about your business addresses and phone numbers? Then
>> > we can set up webcams to show you at work, count the coffee breaks and cook up
>> > some productivity statistics.
>>
>> Alan, this is a straw-man argument and you damn well know it. I've read
>> all of your postings during your occasional runs of newsgroup activity
>> and I think you're well above this silly "Let's see you do better than
>> Pat Meares!" line of "reasoning."
>>
> Yeah, I got a little emotional. I didn't think that calling the Pirate staff
> 'rag-armed rehabbing zeros' was particularly fair. Because of my work with USOC I
> have at least some idea of what it takes to be an 'elite athlete'.
> If you want to claim that there's a pitcher out there with Mullholland's skills and
> experience for less than $3 mil, then identify him.
Tim Young has forty times more skill and I'll live without his experience.
But that is no reason to
> insult Mullholland, Young, Meares or any of the other athletes on the team.
> Paul's on record as seeing that he knows "for a fact" that he and others posting to
> Usenet could turn in a better job performance than Cam Bonifay, even though he
> admits to **zero** baseball or managerial experience.
Neither did Bonifay, really, before he got the job.
galv...@stargate.net
Tiger59 wrote:
> You know Paul, I had forgotten about you, but I would love to
> see whatever credentials make you the EXPERT of the group!
> Boy, do you contribute a lot of crap! Unbelievable!
>
Oh let's see, the fact that I've been many time better at evaluating talent
than the entire Pirate organization the past ten seasons, that I've been
far FAAAAAR better and determining how the Pirates and their competition
would do during that period.
That's right Cam Bonifay and the rest of his staff are the "experts" that's
why they have eight losing seasons under their belt with number nine about
to get underway. While I have no formal experience in baseball
management, I also don't have the track record of miserable failure that
the "experts" who run the Pirates and those who cover them in the local
media do. I've just managed to tell them every were they'd finish and
where their failures, from Mike Kingery, Turner Ward, Doug Strange, Charlie
Hayes, Kevin Young, Pat Meares, and even the break down of Jason Schmidt
and Cordova, would be.
Explain to me, how come the "experts" running the Pirates couldn't see
Schmidt and Cordova's problems on the horizon, but someone such as myself
with nothing more than some basic evaluation tools could?
"experts" bwaawaww yeah, the Pirates got lot's them around and I could
still do a better job than Cam Bonifay.
>
> Mr. Expert, I agree that the Pirates have been the embarassment
> of the decade, but look at the Steelers, not much better. They
> are small-market teams that can only do so much. No money,
> no stars.
Total media fabricated BS. No stars? Then what are Brian Giles, Jason
Kendall and Kris Benson?
No money? Then what is the stuff they're using to pay Derek Bell, Pat
Meares, Kevin Young, Mike Benjamin and Terry Mullholland? That's the
equivalent of a superstar like Jeter or two emerging stars that aren't free
agents but could be signed through their prime years.
The Pirates have stars, but they fail because rather than surround those
stars with young, cheap developing players with talent they CHOOSE to
surround them with crud like Meares, Young, Bell, Benjamin and Mullholland.
The Pirates don't lack money, they lack the management to know how to spend
money they do have wisely.
The Pirates had a chance to trade Cordova for Jim Edmonds and take all the
money they pissed away on Meares, Young and Bell and offered him a better
deal than he got in Saint Louis - but they didn't cause the "experts"
running their team think you win with broken down pitchers.
> Do you know what goes behind the scenes whenever
> Cam tries to recruite players??
No, but I don't have to because that's not the Pirates major problem. They
shouldn't be chasing free agents in the first place, winning teams never
do. The fact remains that the best teams have always built from within and
used the free agent market to patch holes when they've already become
successful - the Pirates have never attempted a legitimate rebuilding and
that's their biggest problem.
> Has it crossed your mind that
> maybe NOBODY wants to play in Pittsburgh because of its
> location and climate??!!
No, because that the biggest pile of nonsense I've heard yet. Again, the
Pirates shouldn't be chasing these players in the first place - is that how
they got Giles, Kendall and Benson? NO!
Players won't come to Pittsburgh because the team is a perpetual loser with
no direction or clue how to change that.
> Hmmm...if you had the choice between
> Marlins and Pirates, would you give up 'babes' in So. Beach;
> fishing in the Keys; or maybe the tropical life of Miami??
Again, why waste time with those players? That's the surest way to build
and maintain a losing franchise.
The most pathetic part about the Pirates is that not only do they never
learn from their mistakes, they don't even learn from their successes.
Brian Giles is one of the top offensive threats in baseball, signed well
below what he could have gotten elsewhere so how does he find himself a
Pirate?
Simple, the team traded for him and while he was still obligated to them
for a small amount of money they offered him a contract that was in his
interest to sign rather than wait until free agency. Milwaukee did it with
Sexon, who will be playign along side Jenkins, Burnitz, Loretta and
Belliard - are they a bigger market with better location and weather than
Pittsburgh?
When the Brewers do better than the Pirates this season with a fraction of
the payroll, do you think Bonifay will learn anything? Not likely.
And right now there are a hundred guys 25 to 27 years old who are ready to
contribute but stuck behind established players, players who could be had
for nothing and would gladly accept a contract from the Pirates for the
money Kevin Young, Pat Meares, Mike Benjamin, Derek Bell and Terry
Mullholland are wasting.
But Cam Bonifay and his team of experts have no clue how to identify them
or acquire them - that's why the Pirates are losers. That's why they'll
remain so until the front office is purged of the "experts" like Cam.
galv...@stargate.net
Doug Childers wrote:
> Look, I only asked this question because I wanted to see how Terry was
> doing. He will benefit your ballclub.
No he won't, he's hurting the team by wasting money that is needed elswhere and
playing at a much lower level that a dozen other cheaper, better options the
Pirates had available to them.
> He is a team leader who wants to
> help out the team the best he can.
So what? There are plenty of people who've never picked up a baseball in their
live wou could make the same claim, shall we sign them as well?
Baseball teams win by scoring runs and keeping the other team from scoring runs,
Terry Mullholland won't contribute on either end of that equation.
> Why dont you accept the fact that you
> paid for more off the field qualities that you paid for on-the-field
> qualities.
Oh I'm well aware of that, it's the same reasoning behind dozens of other free
agent signings Cam Bonifay has made.
It's also a major factor in the Pirates having eight straight losing seasons.
> Terry will benefit your pitching staff in more ways than you can
> deem possible.
No he won't, but won't be until the ninth losing season is completed that you'll
understand that.
galv...@stargate.net
Tiger59 wrote:
> I agree with you 1,000%! Also, the fact that nobody
> wants to play in Pitt must be acknowledged!
The fact that nobody wants to play in Pittsburgh because they're
perpetual losers, they're perpetual losers because the "experts" running
the team haven't a clue how to run the team and there are ways to
acquire and retain quality player without having to factor in their
desire to play in Pittsburgh.
Those are they only relevant facts and they all contradict your
assertions.
>
>
> The point that I took advantage of, after a year of
> reading their crap, is that these two "EXPERTS" need
> to stay home and watch soap operas instead of being
> online writing their 'expert opinion', which amounts to
> the same crap all the time: SHIT!
Squawk and squeal all you want but the fact remains that Cam Bonifay has
eight losing season to his credit the only shit I've seen is his job
performance.
Derek Davison
<will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> One of the drawbacks of being a public figure is that every aspect of your
> perfomance is open to public comment. How about it fellows? Want to
> post your IQ scores? Your SATs? Your GPAs? Your salaries, attendance
> and personnel records? How about your business addresses and phone
> numbers? Then we can set up webcams to show you at work, count the
> coffee breaks and cook up some productivity statistics.
Pat Meares (to use one example) went into professional baseball knowing
full well that he'd be living in a fishtank and that his job performance
would be analyzed and re-analyzed by the public just about every day. The
argument that we should pity him or feel reluctant to criticize him because
he gets that kind of treatment is patently absurd. Nobody held a gun to
his head and insisted that he play major league baseball, and he's paid
(overpaid, to be sure) quite well to put up with this public scrutiny. If
any player can't handle the pressure of being in the spotlight, there's a
big, anonymous job market out there that they can go into instead.
Derek
Pravin Ratnam
we are really attacking BOnifay and how he is killing this franchise's
budget.
"Tiger59" <Tig...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:voAq6.5718$887.1...@news3.atl...
Derek Davison
wrote:
> You know Paul, I had forgotten about you, but I would love to
> see whatever credentials make you the EXPERT of the group!
> Boy, do you contribute a lot of crap! Unbelievable!
But your contributions have really enhanced the discourse, let me tell you.
>
> Mr. Expert, I agree that the Pirates have been the embarassment
> of the decade, but look at the Steelers, not much better. They
> are small-market teams that can only do so much.
Just like Oakland, Colorado, and Cleveland, right?
> No money,
> no stars.
So they're paying Derek Bell with what, beads and trinkets? They have
money, it's just the stars that are missing.
> Do you know what goes behind the scenes whenever
> Cam tries to recruite players??
Do you? I'd imagine that, since the players Cam "recruits" aren't drawing
any interest from any other teams, he makes them an outrageous offer and
they sign it. Then they and their agents have a laughing fit all the way
to the bank.
> Has it crossed your mind that
> maybe NOBODY wants to play in Pittsburgh because of its
> location and climate??!! Hmmm...if you had the choice between
> Marlins and Pirates, would you give up 'babes' in So. Beach;
> fishing in the Keys; or maybe the tropical life of Miami??
Look how many big name stars the Marlins are attracting. You must be on to
something. Or maybe just on something.
>
> I respect your comments up until the point were you start
> 'guessing' what happens behind the scenes. I played in Bradenton
> 1981-83 and could blow your mind with the crap that goes on when
> one in 25 players had potential. Sad thing is that once they
> have one or two good seasons, Pitt is the last city they want to
> live in. Yes, if they are 30-35 years old, they resign themselves
> to living in the 'Steel City'. But again, if I made a few millions in
> salary for doing what I enjoy doing (playing ball) and I had a choice
> between Pitt, Miami, LA, even NY...well, unless I was born and
> raised in a small city, ask Rodriguez, Sheffield, Chipper, Javy, Green,
> etc., where they would rather play (and live!)
Probably wherever they get paid the most. Or shall we assume that Mussina,
Jeter, Griffey, Garciaparra, Ramirez, Martinez, Rivera, Piazza, Mondesi,
Delgado, Sosa, Thomas, et al, have some particular attachment to cold
weather?
>
> Give the Bucs a break! So you are a fan...does that give you owner-
> ship of the team? Does it make you some expert?? I do not
> think so!
Ownership? No. But I am potentially a paying customer. What the Pirates
are doing would be akin to a department store stocking all second-hand and
irregular items and expecting me to keep shopping there.
>
> You say I should grow up?!! Dude, you are the one who is going
> to have a stroke early on in life worrying about crap that people
> with a LIFE should not be losing sleep over.
..and yet you're worrying about our worries. What does that say about you?
>
> AMEN!
>
> And don't bother with some long-detailed crap response, trying to
> insult me. I do HAVE A LIFE and no matter what you say:
>
> 1. You will not get to me!
Apparently we already have.
> 2. Cam will probably remain in office for a few more years
> (unfortunatelly!)
Time to crack open that dictionary.
> 3. The Bucs will not break .500 anytime soon
What? No blinding optimism? You're a schmuk. Get out of here and let us
real fans talk about how wonderful things are.
>
> But you know what????
>
>
> LET'S GO BUCS!!!
>
> Mike Corujo
> Marietta, GA
Derek
JayWBux
calling each other foolish and lacking the fundamental ability to judge
baseball talent, as opposed to making those comments about Cam Bonifay. The
latter is always acceptable, and correct.
:-)
The normal process is that Person A posts an opinion, Person B (politely or
not) disgrees with it, then Persons A and B both exchange a string of
increasingly vitriolic postings calling each other idiots.
Sometime the ad hominem remarks begin in the posting by Person B, but more
often in the second posting by A. A few people on this board post nothing but
ad hominem remarks, apparently assuming that anyone who disagrees one iota with
them is an idiot.
A good way to avoid this is to stop reading any string after the first two or
three postings.
- Jay in NoVA
KatyMaria
>There @280,000,000 people in this country...and about 1,000 major leaguers.
>I
>doubt you can claim any skill that moves you into that percentile in any
>field.
The old "You've never played in the majors so you know nothing about baseball"
line.
Try again. That one doesn't work.
>Wonder what the Pirates think of opening their new ballpark with chuckleheads
>like
>you in the stands?
They will be opening the new ballpark to people who have no idea who Jason
Schmidt is. Perhaps with a bit of practice, they will learn to cheer for the
team wearing black and gold. Except they are only showing up to see the
fireworks.
David Marc Nieporent
Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I got a little emotional. I didn't think that calling the Pirate staff
> 'rag-armed rehabbing zeros' was particularly fair. Because of my work with
> USOC I have at least some idea of what it takes to be an 'elite athlete'.
> If you want to claim that there's a pitcher out there with Mullholland's skills and
> experience for less than $3 mil, then identify him. But that is no reason to
> insult Mullholland, Young, Meares or any of the other athletes on the team.
> Paul's on record as seeing that he knows "for a fact" that he and others posting to
> Usenet could turn in a better job performance than Cam Bonifay, even though
> he admits to **zero** baseball or managerial experience.
I think my lawn ornaments could turn in a better job performance than Cam
Bonifay. I know Paul could. Any longtime usenet readers know that Paul
and I have often disagreed, and have never gotten along, but at least Paul
hasn't shown signs of having been lobotomized.
> While he may think so, (and I won't even touch how delusional that is),
Why? What makes Cam Bonifay qualified to do the GM job?
> it rankles
> me that he spews such venom at the individual players. No doubt *that*
> attitude would make him a great GM.
Oh, please. There's a big difference between being an outside commentator
and being an active participant. Just because Paul says these things from
the outside doesn't mean he would say them (at least not publicly) if he
were a GM.
> Most of us should be grateful that we are not exposed to the kind of merciless
> day-to-day evaluations that an elite athlete encounters. To have those
> evaluations then commented on by the armchair quarterbacks gets under my skin. To
> aggravate matters, Paul expressed it as a personal betrayal that the Pirates
> have been losers since 1992.
Most of us are not paid massive sums of money to be exposed to those
merciless day-to-day evaluations. Those athletes are paid that much
precisely because people care about their performances enough to pay to
watch them every day, to pay money to see them perform every day. If
people weren't passionate about the performances of those players, then
those players wouldn't be getting the kind of money they do, particularly
when they've been as losing as the Pirates have in recent years.
> I'm not trying to make a straw-man, just introduce a little perspective. Few of us
> would want or could survive the scrutiny a major league player endures.
I think most of us would be willing to accept it, if we got the perks that
come from being a major league ballplayer. No, most of us don't have that
talent -- in baseball or any other field. But obviously ballplayers are
willing to make that tradeoff, too.
> These
> guys are weighed, measured, tested, conditioned, compared and evaluated far more
> than many people realize. Even the worst of them are gifted and talented
> athletes. Yes, if you can do better than Pat Meares, by all means get out there
> and do it.
But it is a strawman. The issue isn't whether Paul is better than Pat
Meares, but whether a bunch of other ballplayers are better than Pat
Meares. The Pirates aren't trying to beat Paul's company softball team;
they're competing against the Braves and Mets and Cardinals and such.
> If you want criticize his performance or the team, at least be civil. If Paul
> really thinks that the Pirate line-up disgraces their new building, I hope to high
> heaven he will avoid the place. You don't like the show? Don't buy a ticket. But
> buying the ticket doesn't make you an expert nor does it entitle you to attack the
> people playing the game.
Actually, it does. In fact, even if he doesn't buy a ticket, he is
entitled to "attack" people playing the game, as long as said attack is
limited to verbal criticism.
> I hope that the next time he earns his keep Paul
> imagines 20,000 spectators watching him work and demanding that he deliver
> for them personally.
Only if he also gets to imagine those people paying an average of $10-15
each to watch him work.
> It's not like these guys aren't working their asses off. It's not like they want
> to lose. But competition at the elite level is a little hard for most of us to
> imagine with any degree of accuracy.
But it *is* like many of them are inadquate to compete at that elite level
with any degree of success.
Tiger59
To you and all in the newsgroup, my apologies! Every year around January, I
start
looking at what the Bucs do to get ready for the new season and maintain a
very
high level of optimism. Alas - every year seems to be the same crap!
I guess I am what you call a true fan in that whether they win or lose, I
pay $129.00
to Direct TV for the chance to see the Bucs play from my living room in
Atlanta. This
year they play only 3 games in Atlanta and I already got my tickets behind
3rd base.
When I see people bad-mouthing the team, I do take it in a negative way
because
I guess my hope that something turns the team around and gives us a reason
to
celebrate.
Derek, Paul, and anyone that was offended by my remarks: I am sorry!
Again, my intent was to express my frustration in that you guys take it out
on the
players when the one to blame should be Cam.
Sincerely,
Mike Corujo
Marietta, GA
galv...@stargate.net
Tiger59 wrote:
> Derek, Paul, and anyone that was offended by my remarks: I am sorry!
Likewise, I don't mean to attack those who are happy to follow the Pirates no
matter what.
Like everyone else I'm frustrated at the situation - I long for the days when I
can return to the ball park and feel good about it.
> Again, my intent was to express my frustration in that you guys take it out
> on the players when the one to blame should be Cam.
So then can we pencil you in for the torch lit march on the front office this
July?
I think we still have a few openings for noose men and pitch fork bearers.
cyborganist
--
The growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts, and
that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half
owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in
unvisited tombs. -- George Eliot
Dan Szymborski
jay...@aol.com says...
> Ad hominem is a personal attack, that is, when the folks on this board start
> calling each other foolish and lacking the fundamental ability to judge
> baseball talent, as opposed to making those comments about Cam Bonifay. The
> latter is always acceptable, and correct.
Voros knows this. He was being sarcastic.
Tiger59
Hahaha! You betcha that I will be leading the mob to topple
the Cam regime and find us a GM with balls (my apologies
to any ladies in the audience!) ;)
I will have post-game commentary from my attending the 3
Bucs-Braves games in Atlanta (5/25-27) for all to enjoy!
Mike Corujo
Marietta, GA
Tiger59
Mike C.
Marietta, GA
Tiger59
I am glad that he posted the definition for it saved me a trip
to the dictionary! Hehehe!
Mike C.
Marietta, GA
Alan & Erin Williams
> (snip)
>
> That consumers of a product don't have a right to demand improvements to
> the product or else boycott the product (Galvanek).
>
> Consumers don't have a right to complain about the quality of a product
> when there are no other alternatives of similar products. IOW, if they
> want the product, they must take whatever the Pirates give them.
>
The fallacy here, of course, is that baseball is not consumed, it is observed. It
is entertainment, just like movies or TV. Paul's got every right to change the
channel.
There are roughly two dozen *other* major league baseball franchises. Paul is
welcome to go enjoy the Yankees, Braves or Mets, or take the time-honored route of
rooting for the favorite.
I live in a town that is equidistant between Pittsburgh and Baltimore. I still
enjoy the Steelers, even when they miss the playoffs. Amazing how many Ravens fans
surfaced here on February 1st.
Even at their worst, the Pirates will win 40% of their games against the best
baseball teams on the planet. At their best, the Pirates will win 60% of those
games. To call them uncompetitive is a canard. And since this country does have
free speech, Paul, or anyone else, is free to call the players 'dogmeat', 'zero' or
whatever other imaginative perjorative he likes.
But I don't have to mistake it for enlightment, insight or righteous indignation.
It's the same old self-promoting, abusive, bitter vitriol that fans have salved
over their wounds since the games began. "Hell, even *I* knew that guy would throw
a wild pitch! The people running this franchise are morons!"
Alan
"Trade that bum! He's 0 for 26!"
(Polo Grounds fan observing Willie Mays)
Voros
>> (snip)
>>
>> That consumers of a product don't have a right to demand improvements to
>> the product or else boycott the product (Galvanek).
>>
>> Consumers don't have a right to complain about the quality of a product
>> when there are no other alternatives of similar products. IOW, if they
>> want the product, they must take whatever the Pirates give them.
>>
> The fallacy here, of course, is that baseball is not consumed, it is observed. It
> is entertainment, just like movies or TV. Paul's got every right to change the
> channel.
That has nothing to do with anything. Paper towels aren't "consumed"
either. Neither are Automobiles. Both are purchased by consumers.
> There are roughly two dozen *other* major league baseball franchises. Paul is
> welcome to go enjoy the Yankees, Braves or Mets, or take the time-honored route of
> rooting for the favorite.
Yeah all he has to do is move.
Alan & Erin Williams
> Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > Voros wrote:
>
> >> (snip)
> >>
> >> That consumers of a product don't have a right to demand improvements to
> >> the product or else boycott the product (Galvanek).
> >>
> >> Consumers don't have a right to complain about the quality of a product
> >> when there are no other alternatives of similar products. IOW, if they
> >> want the product, they must take whatever the Pirates give them.
> >>
>
> > The fallacy here, of course, is that baseball is not consumed, it is observed. It
> > is entertainment, just like movies or TV. Paul's got every right to change the
> > channel.
>
> That has nothing to do with anything. Paper towels aren't "consumed"
> either. Neither are Automobiles. Both are purchased by consumers.
Beg pardon? They bear every resemblance to goods that are purchased, used and disposed
of, in short, consumed.
>
>
> > There are roughly two dozen *other* major league baseball franchises. Paul is
> > welcome to go enjoy the Yankees, Braves or Mets, or take the time-honored route of
> > rooting for the favorite.
>
> Yeah all he has to do is move.
>
May well be the best suggestion. Of course, with today's ease of communication, he can
switch his allegiances with ease and follow the team that he likes most, at the moment.
I think fairweather fans miss out on the biggest satisfactions, though. Victory is
much more satisfying when it follows loss, just as rain is most welcome following
drought. Victory without opposition is meaningless.
The players I most enjoy are those who rise above previous performance or overcome
adversity. David Cone is out to prove something this year. From 4-14 at his age and
all the 'knowledgable fans' would expect little. But David has worked on his
mechanics, shortened his motion and hopes to be a consistent winner again. That's
drama worth following *and no personal shortcoming of his if he falls short*.
Jason Kendall has come back from a devastating injury. Schmidt and Cordova both had
surgery for chrissake. 'rag-armed rehabbing zeros', Paul called them. Cute. What a
class act.
Yes, you're right. All he has to do is move.
Alan
Lance Freezeland
> I agree with you 1,000%! Also, the fact that nobody
> wants to play in Pitt must be acknowledged!
> The point that I took advantage of, after a year of
> reading their crap, is that these two "EXPERTS" need
> to stay home and watch soap operas instead of being
> online writing their 'expert opinion', which amounts to
> the same crap all the time: SHIT!
But you both sidestep the main issue here. A 38 year old middle reliever
/ spot starter might have been worth $3M to the Braves, Mets or Cardinals.
He might have been the final piece of the puzzle for those teams. For the
Pirates, though, he's a waste of $3M that could have been better spent in
the development of young players.
--
Lance lb...@altamont.net
"We don't rent pigs. Uva Uvam Vivendo Varia Fit."
Captain Augustus McCrae
"Astroturf is evidence of the existence of Satan. It was invented because
grass could not grow in hell." --- Lance
Lance Freezeland
> You and Paul need to combine into a Schmuck-shake
> and blend yourself off the newsgroup. Else, rename
> the newsgroup the "Bitches of Steel City" so that the
> fans that want to support the team know to steer clear
> off you two losers!
> LET'S GO BUCS!!!
I take it that you want the Pirates to win. Do you think that it will
help them to achieve that if the fans cheer such acquisitions as
Mulholland, Bell and Meares? A fan who "supports" his team can do so by
complaining about their bonehead moves as well. A GM should have some
accountability to the customers about the quality of the product he is
selling them.
> PS.
> I can't have my head up my ass. You have that market
> completely monopolized, along with your butt-buddy Paul!
It's interesting that you start out by complaining about Paul's posts
here, and within two days, you've degenerated to this.
Alan & Erin Williams
> In article <3AABA638...@mindspring.com>,
> Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> (snip)
> > Paul's on record as seeing that he knows "for a fact" that he and others posting to
> > Usenet could turn in a better job performance than Cam Bonifay, even though
> > he admits to **zero** baseball or managerial experience.
>
> I think my lawn ornaments could turn in a better job performance than Cam
> Bonifay. I know Paul could. Any longtime usenet readers know that Paul
> and I have often disagreed, and have never gotten along, but at least Paul
> hasn't shown signs of having been lobotomized.
Line for the Cam Bonifay Fan Club is pretty short around here...yes?
(snip)
>
>
> > it rankles
> > me that he spews such venom at the individual players. No doubt *that*
> > attitude would make him a great GM.
>
> Oh, please. There's a big difference between being an outside commentator
> and being an active participant. Just because Paul says these things from
> the outside doesn't mean he would say them (at least not publicly) if he
> were a GM.
I think it's hard to hide attitudes like that. You can tell when you're being jived.
And of course a lot safer to yell it from the seats than in the clubhouse.
>
>
> > Most of us should be grateful that we are not exposed to the kind of merciless
> > day-to-day evaluations that an elite athlete encounters. To have those
> > evaluations then commented on by the armchair quarterbacks gets under my skin. To
> > aggravate matters, Paul expressed it as a personal betrayal that the Pirates
> > have been losers since 1992.
>
> Most of us are not paid massive sums of money to be exposed to those
> merciless day-to-day evaluations. Those athletes are paid that much
> precisely because people care about their performances enough to pay to
> watch them every day, to pay money to see them perform every day. If
> people weren't passionate about the performances of those players, then
> those players wouldn't be getting the kind of money they do, particularly
> when they've been as losing as the Pirates have in recent years.
True. Spectators are the source of the money.
>
>
> > I'm not trying to make a straw-man, just introduce a little perspective. Few of us
> > would want or could survive the scrutiny a major league player endures.
>
> I think most of us would be willing to accept it, if we got the perks that
> come from being a major league ballplayer. No, most of us don't have that
> talent -- in baseball or any other field. But obviously ballplayers are
> willing to make that tradeoff, too.
I'm not so sure here. I fly far less often than the major leaguers do, only 10 or 12
times a year, but man does it get old. Okay, you never see your luggage...but you don't
get to see much of the wife, kids, parents, high school recital or first steps,
either. It's hell to be 1000's of miles from home, the kids are sick, the wife is
tired, the manager is on your ass and some stranger with $20 is screaming that you
couldn't catch a cold...
But the fact that they are willing to do it speaks for itself, you're right. They are
not normal workplace conditions, however.
>
>
> > These
> > guys are weighed, measured, tested, conditioned, compared and evaluated far more
> > than many people realize. Even the worst of them are gifted and talented
> > athletes. Yes, if you can do better than Pat Meares, by all means get out there
> > and do it.
>
> But it is a strawman. The issue isn't whether Paul is better than Pat
> Meares, but whether a bunch of other ballplayers are better than Pat
> Meares. The Pirates aren't trying to beat Paul's company softball team;
> they're competing against the Braves and Mets and Cardinals and such.
I'm not trying to say that Paul has to be better than Pat Meares before he can comment.
But I think it's worth reminding people that the *worst* ML player was his high school
and college star. If he can't get a hit off Randy Johnson, that's more to Johnson's
credit than Meares detriment.
>
>
> > If you want criticize his performance or the team, at least be civil. If Paul
> > really thinks that the Pirate line-up disgraces their new building, I hope to high
> > heaven he will avoid the place. You don't like the show? Don't buy a ticket. But
> > buying the ticket doesn't make you an expert nor does it entitle you to attack the
> > people playing the game.
>
> Actually, it does. In fact, even if he doesn't buy a ticket, he is
> entitled to "attack" people playing the game, as long as said attack is
> limited to verbal criticism.
Well, okay, you're right. He can call the baby ugly if he wants to. But I don't want
to see his baby pictures. pot to kettle: black
> > I hope that the next time he earns his keep Paul
> > imagines 20,000 spectators watching him work and demanding that he deliver
> > for them personally.
>
> Only if he also gets to imagine those people paying an average of $10-15
> each to watch him work.
>
LOL! Okay, sure. He can imagine that they paid admission. I don't mind. ;-)
>
> > It's not like these guys aren't working their asses off. It's not like they want
> > to lose. But competition at the elite level is a little hard for most of us to
> > imagine with any degree of accuracy.
>
> But it *is* like many of them are inadquate to compete at that elite level
> with any degree of success.
Baseball is such a binary game...you're either a baserunner or an out, a winner or a
loser. The 2001 Pirates can compete with some degree of success. I would only put a
few teams in recent memory in the 'no success' category. The 1962 Mets, ferinstance.
And they still won 40 times...
Alan
galv...@stargate.net
Alan & Erin Williams wrote:
>
>
> Line for the Cam Bonifay Fan Club is pretty short around here...yes?
>
Think so?
>
>
> I think it's hard to hide attitudes like that. You can tell when you're being jived.
> And of course a lot safer to yell it from the seats than in the clubhouse.
But you see, it's still a stawman...
If I were the GM I would not have that attitude nor would i need to worry about hiding it,
since those players wouldn't be on my roster in the first place.
It would only seem to make sense that the players I signed would be those I have full
confidence in, right?
--
Paul Galvanek - Ver. 3.5
--
The best thing about a clown is, you can never be exaclty sure what they'll pull out of
their pants next.
Voros
> Voros wrote:
>> Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> > Voros wrote:
>>
>> >> (snip)
>> >>
>> >> That consumers of a product don't have a right to demand improvements to
>> >> the product or else boycott the product (Galvanek).
>> >>
>> >> Consumers don't have a right to complain about the quality of a product
>> >> when there are no other alternatives of similar products. IOW, if they
>> >> want the product, they must take whatever the Pirates give them.
>> >>
>>
>> > The fallacy here, of course, is that baseball is not consumed, it is observed. It
>> > is entertainment, just like movies or TV. Paul's got every right to change the
>> > channel.
>>
>> That has nothing to do with anything. Paper towels aren't "consumed"
>> either. Neither are Automobiles. Both are purchased by consumers.
> Beg pardon? They bear every resemblance to goods that are purchased, used and disposed
> of, in short, consumed.
You mean like a ticket to a baseball game? That really is the only thing
you use.
>>
>>
>> > There are roughly two dozen *other* major league baseball franchises. Paul is
>> > welcome to go enjoy the Yankees, Braves or Mets, or take the time-honored route of
>> > rooting for the favorite.
>>
>> Yeah all he has to do is move.
>>
> May well be the best suggestion. Of course, with today's ease of communication, he can
> switch his allegiances with ease and follow the team that he likes most, at the moment.
But then he has to pay more to be a Yankee fan than he does a Pirate fan.
> I think fairweather fans miss out on the biggest satisfactions, though. Victory is
> much more satisfying when it follows loss, just as rain is most welcome following
> drought. Victory without opposition is meaningless.
> The players I most enjoy are those who rise above previous performance or overcome
> adversity.
You mean like that bad apple, John Vander Wal?
Jeremy Buchman
Alan & Erin Williams wrote:
> "Trade that bum! He's 0 for 26!"
> (Polo Grounds fan observing Willie Mays)
Great quote. So this means that you agree that Aramis Ramirez was prematurely demoted
last year?
Alan & Erin Williams
I don't think Ramirez has anything left to prove at AAA. Hindsight is always 20/20, but
if were the manager, I'd have put the kid in at 3B and let him play.
Alan
Alan & Erin Williams
> Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > Voros wrote:
>
> (snip)
> >> > The fallacy here, of course, is that baseball is not consumed, it is observed. It
> >> > is entertainment, just like movies or TV. Paul's got every right to change the
> >> > channel.
> >>
> >> That has nothing to do with anything. Paper towels aren't "consumed"
> >> either. Neither are Automobiles. Both are purchased by consumers.
>
> > Beg pardon? They bear every resemblance to goods that are purchased, used and disposed
> > of, in short, consumed.
>
> You mean like a ticket to a baseball game? That really is the only thing
> you use.
>
Perhaps it's a quibble, but there's a difference between goods being consumed and the
decision to spend leisure time at the ballpark.
You made the point that Paul "has to take what the Pirates are giving". No , he doesn't.
He can go backpacking or read a book, instead.
Paul (and the rest of us) *do* have to take what the paper towel and automotive industries
produce. The difference between consumable goods and being entertained is substantial.
Alan
Derek Davison
<will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Voros wrote:
>
>> Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> > Voros wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>> >> > The fallacy here, of course, is that baseball is not consumed, it
>> >> > is observed. It is entertainment, just like movies or TV. Paul's
>> >> > got every right to change the channel.
>> >>
>> >> That has nothing to do with anything. Paper towels aren't "consumed"
>> >> either. Neither are Automobiles. Both are purchased by consumers.
>>
>> > Beg pardon? They bear every resemblance to goods that are purchased,
>> > used and disposed of, in short, consumed.
>>
>> You mean like a ticket to a baseball game? That really is the only thing
>> you use.
>>
>
> Perhaps it's a quibble, but there's a difference between goods being
> consumed and the decision to spend leisure time at the ballpark.
Not really. A baseball game is purchased recreation. Maybe it's a service
instead of a good, but it's still purchased and in some sense consumed.
>
> You made the point that Paul "has to take what the Pirates are giving".
> No , he doesn't. He can go backpacking or read a book, instead.
>
> Paul (and the rest of us) *do* have to take what the paper towel and
> automotive industries produce.
But I don't have to take what any particular paper towel or automotive
company offers. I can switch brands, just like I can switch leisure
activities. The difference is that any two brands of paper towels are
largely identical, while another form of recreation may not do a good job
of replacing baseball if I'm already a fan of the game. In that sense, the
Pirates have much better leverage than Bounty Paper Towels.
> The difference between consumable goods
> and being entertained is substantial.
>
> Alan
>
Derek
Alan & Erin Williams
> --On Monday, March 12, 2001, 11:30 PM -0500 Alan & Erin Williams
> <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Voros wrote:
> >
> >> Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> > Voros wrote:
> >>
> >> (snip)
> >> >> > The fallacy here, of course, is that baseball is not consumed, it
> >> >> > is observed. It is entertainment, just like movies or TV. Paul's
> >> >> > got every right to change the channel.
> >> >>
> >> >> That has nothing to do with anything. Paper towels aren't "consumed"
> >> >> either. Neither are Automobiles. Both are purchased by consumers.
> >>
> >> > Beg pardon? They bear every resemblance to goods that are purchased,
> >> > used and disposed of, in short, consumed.
> >>
> >> You mean like a ticket to a baseball game? That really is the only thing
> >> you use.
> >>
> >
> > Perhaps it's a quibble, but there's a difference between goods being
> > consumed and the decision to spend leisure time at the ballpark.
>
> Not really. A baseball game is purchased recreation. Maybe it's a service
> instead of a good, but it's still purchased and in some sense consumed.
Back to my original point: observed, not consumed. In no sense consumed. No
disposal problems (what to do with worn out ball games)!
>
>
> >
> > You made the point that Paul "has to take what the Pirates are giving".
> > No , he doesn't. He can go backpacking or read a book, instead.
> >
> > Paul (and the rest of us) *do* have to take what the paper towel and
> > automotive industries produce.
>
> But I don't have to take what any particular paper towel or automotive
> company offers. I can switch brands, just like I can switch leisure
> activities.
Nor do you "have to take what the Pirates offer". Go root for the Yankees,
instead.
> The difference is that any two brands of paper towels are
> largely identical, while another form of recreation may not do a good job
> of replacing baseball if I'm already a fan of the game. In that sense, the
> Pirates have much better leverage than Bounty Paper Towels.
This one always slays me, that the Pirates somehow have 'leverage' in foisting
an 'inferior product' upon a gullible public!!
Honestly, if you can't see a difference between spectating a sporting event
and buying a car, we've reached the end of the thread.
Alan
Keith Law
"Alan & Erin Williams" <will...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3AAB1D7A...@mindspring.com...
> galv...@stargate.net wrote:
>
> > I think Derek hates him because he's making three million AND he sucks
AND he's
> > taking the spot on the roster of someone who's could be younger, could
be
> > better, could actually improve the team AND could be earning the league
minimum
> > at the same time.
>
> You know, in your own line of work there is likely a new college graduate
willing
> to take your job for one-third of your pay...maybe someone should point
that out
> to Human Resources tomorrow.
Ah, another fallacy. There's a slight difference here: That new college
graduate would have the education, but not the experience and/or maturity to
do the job. If s/he were equally skilled to Paul, do you really think his
employer would hesitate to make the move? Any company facing the wrath of
shareholders wouldn't blink.
The point with Mulholland or Bell or Meares is that they are less skilled
and less qualified to do their jobs than cheaper replacements coming up out
of the minors, and they have less upside and less likelihood of being with
the next winning Pirates' team than the Jack Wilsons and the Chad Hermansens
and the Craig Wilsons kicking around the Pirates' upper-level farm teams.
--
-Keith Law
Author, Baseball Prospectus 2001
www.baseballprospectus.com
Alan & Erin Williams
> "Alan & Erin Williams" <will...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:3AAB1D7A...@mindspring.com...
> > galv...@stargate.net wrote:
> >
> > > I think Derek hates him because he's making three million AND he sucks
> AND he's
> > > taking the spot on the roster of someone who's could be younger, could
> be
> > > better, could actually improve the team AND could be earning the league
> minimum
> > > at the same time.
> >
> > You know, in your own line of work there is likely a new college graduate
> willing
> > to take your job for one-third of your pay...maybe someone should point
> that out
> > to Human Resources tomorrow.
>
> Ah, another fallacy. There's a slight difference here: That new college
> graduate would have the education, but not the experience and/or maturity to
> do the job. If s/he were equally skilled to Paul, do you really think his
> employer would hesitate to make the move? Any company facing the wrath of
> shareholders wouldn't blink.
Listen to your own argument! Keeping the higher paid and more experienced
employee vs. plugging in the #1 draft pick! Thanks for making my case.
>
>
> The point with Mulholland or Bell or Meares is that they are less skilled
> and less qualified to do their jobs than cheaper replacements coming up out
> of the minors, and they have less upside and less likelihood of being with
> the next winning Pirates' team than the Jack Wilsons and the Chad Hermansens
> and the Craig Wilsons kicking around the Pirates' upper-level farm teams.
>
Any good manager knows that you need a mix of veterans and rookies on your
squad. Mullholland, Bell and Meares have a proven level of performance at the
Major League level, and whether you think that level is adequate or not,
overcompensated or not, it is a proven level. With Jack Wilson you can only
project (hope for!) a Major League performance level.
As you pointed out in the hypothetical of Paul's employer.
Alan
Derek Davison
<will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Derek Davison wrote:
>
>> --On Monday, March 12, 2001, 11:30 PM -0500 Alan & Erin Williams
>> <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Voros wrote:
>> >
>> >> Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >> > Voros wrote:
>> >>
>> >> (snip)
>> >> >> > The fallacy here, of course, is that baseball is not consumed, it
>> >> >> > is observed. It is entertainment, just like movies or TV.
>> >> >> > Paul's got every right to change the channel.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That has nothing to do with anything. Paper towels aren't
>> >> >> "consumed" either. Neither are Automobiles. Both are purchased by
>> >> >> consumers.
>> >>
>> >> > Beg pardon? They bear every resemblance to goods that are
>> >> > purchased, used and disposed of, in short, consumed.
>> >>
>> >> You mean like a ticket to a baseball game? That really is the only
>> >> thing you use.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Perhaps it's a quibble, but there's a difference between goods being
>> > consumed and the decision to spend leisure time at the ballpark.
>>
>> Not really. A baseball game is purchased recreation. Maybe it's a
>> service instead of a good, but it's still purchased and in some sense
>> consumed.
>
> Back to my original point: observed, not consumed. In no sense consumed.
> No disposal problems (what to do with worn out ball games)!
So I don't buy a ticket? I don't throw it away after the game? You're
arguing semantics. Just because I don't actually throw away a baseball
game that has been played doesn't mean that it isn't as useless as a used
paper towel. You seem to be arguing that the Pirates are providing free
entertainment, like rock climbing, and therefore cannot be compared to a
consumer good. Maybe you don't pay for your tickets, but most of us do.
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > You made the point that Paul "has to take what the Pirates are giving".
>> > No , he doesn't. He can go backpacking or read a book, instead.
>> >
>> > Paul (and the rest of us) *do* have to take what the paper towel and
>> > automotive industries produce.
>>
>> But I don't have to take what any particular paper towel or automotive
>> company offers. I can switch brands, just like I can switch leisure
>> activities.
>
> Nor do you "have to take what the Pirates offer". Go root for the
> Yankees, instead.
Sure. I'll pack up and move to New York so I can attend games too.
>
>> The difference is that any two brands of paper towels are
>> largely identical, while another form of recreation may not do a good job
>> of replacing baseball if I'm already a fan of the game. In that sense,
>> the Pirates have much better leverage than Bounty Paper Towels.
>
> This one always slays me, that the Pirates somehow have 'leverage' in
> foisting an 'inferior product' upon a gullible public!!
Not gullible, necessarily. These people are lifelong Pirate fans who will
follow the team no matter what.
The Steelers really are the best case in point here. They'd sell out every
game if they cut the whole roster and fielded a bunch of semi-pro players.
>
> Honestly, if you can't see a difference between spectating a sporting
> event and buying a car, we've reached the end of the thread.
I can totally see the difference. If I don't like my Honda, I'll go buy a
Saturn. If I don't like the current Pirates, I either have to stop being a
baseball fan or change allegiances from a team I've followed since I was a
kid. That's not exactly as easy as deciding to change paper towel brands.
The difference is that the Pirates have (but are slowly losing) much more
brand loyalty than any car company.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
Derek
Voros
> Voros wrote:
>> Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> > Voros wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>> >> > The fallacy here, of course, is that baseball is not consumed, it is observed. It
>> >> > is entertainment, just like movies or TV. Paul's got every right to change the
>> >> > channel.
>> >>
>> >> That has nothing to do with anything. Paper towels aren't "consumed"
>> >> either. Neither are Automobiles. Both are purchased by consumers.
>>
>> > Beg pardon? They bear every resemblance to goods that are purchased, used and disposed
>> > of, in short, consumed.
>>
>> You mean like a ticket to a baseball game? That really is the only thing
>> you use.
>>
> Perhaps it's a quibble, but there's a difference between goods being consumed and the
> decision to spend leisure time at the ballpark.
> You made the point that Paul "has to take what the Pirates are giving". No , he doesn't.
> He can go backpacking or read a book, instead.
Or he could use cloth towels and wash them. Or he could ride a bicycle,
take public transportation or buy used.
> Paul (and the rest of us) *do* have to take what the paper towel and automotive industries
> produce.
Not any more than the you do the Pirates and in terms of individual
companies, considerably less.
If Paul grows up playing baseball and loving the sport, and grows up
watching Robertyo Clemente and Willie Stargell and a few championship
Pirate teams, and his dad was a Pirate fan, and he has lots of great
memories from Pirate games:
He has absolutely no choice (essentially) what baseball team to root for.
He has an emotional attachment to the product. If this is a widespread
phenomena (it is) then clearly the Pirates are dealing from a position of
considerable leverage. They can literally throw whoever they want out on
the field and get 12,000 fans a game, and with revenue sharing and the
national TV contract can start with a prfoit from square one.
What Paul and the other Pirate fans here are advocating is open criticism
of the only MLB team in town and the only team most people in Pittsburgh
have ever been fans of. That this team takes its fan base for granted,
rewards incompetence, and produces a lower quality product than they could
provide without increasing their costs at all.
In short, the Pirates are being run poorly and inefficiently, and whereas
in a normal business, the customers of the business would simply go
elsewhere causing the business to fold, the situation in MLB is such where
such a franchise continues to rake in money, gets public funds used to
increase its own profits and generally not care about anything except the
self-perpetuation of those in charge.
A line of reasoning is that the only way this club gets its act together
is if you hurt it to the point where it has to.
KatyMaria
>Nor do you "have to take what the Pirates offer". Go root for the Yankees,
>instead.
That's not feasible. We can't switch our allegiance because the Pirates suck.
If my kid came home with F's on her report card, should I dump her and adopt
the Honor Roll student down the block?
By the way, I just heard while listening to the Bucs/Astros game that Ankiel
threw 29 pitches in today's game and 22 of them were strikes.
Alan & Erin Williams
> --On Tuesday, March 13, 2001, 8:13 AM -0500 Alan & Erin Williams
> <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> (snipagge massif)
>
> >
> > Honestly, if you can't see a difference between spectating a sporting
> > event and buying a car, we've reached the end of the thread.
>
> I can totally see the difference. If I don't like my Honda, I'll go buy a
> Saturn. If I don't like the current Pirates, I either have to stop being a
> baseball fan or change allegiances from a team I've followed since I was a
> kid. That's not exactly as easy as deciding to change paper towel brands.
>
> The difference is that the Pirates have (but are slowly losing) much more
> brand loyalty than any car company.
>
Now you're on to something...brand loyalty! But is your loyalty to the
franchise (Pirates) or to the product (MLB)? If the reason to attend the ball
game in Pittsburgh is to see the Pirates win, then WWF can guarantee a better
result. If the goal is to see a game where the outcome is undecided, then you
may enjoy yourself more.
I do understand the point that you (the spectator) may feel that the Pirates
personnel decisions are poorly made, and that the team could be more
conpetitive. But this has (in my view) no impact on your 'quality of life' as
a poorly constructed paper towel or auto would.
Can baseball be entertaining when you your team has "no chance" to enter
post-season play? Absolutely. Does the franchise owe you a winner?
Absolutely not. Are they playing major league baseball when they finish with a
record of 70-92? Yes.
If on the other hand, your paper towel dissolves in air, or your car implodes
at 23,000 miles, have you received 'fair value'? No, absolutely not.
Fact is, you probably have no brand loyalty to a paper towel (price dependent)
and brand loyalty to a make of automobile only so long as it fulfills your
expectation. But if you go to the ballpark *expecting* to see the home team
win, then you are a Yankee fan. And I fail to see the entertainment in that.
Because the Pirates are trying to win, because MLB games are not fixed, because
I get see stars from other teams, triple plays, great plays and bonehead
manuevers, baseball in Pittsburgh continues to excite me. I feel badly for
*the players* when they get trounced, but I don't feel badly for myself. I
have recieved fair value. I have seen a major league baseball game. I enjoy
watching the Bowie Baysox, too, but hyperbole aside, Derek Bell, Pat Meares and
Co. have skills far above those of minor leaguers, win or lose. Remember the
replacement players? Yuck!
If you don't like the current Pirates, that's fine. Don't buy a ticket. You
have plenty of other uses for your leisure time. If your car or your paper
towel disappoints you, you *do* have a beef. You can't very well decide to
live in filth or walk everywhere.
I know you see my point. Baseball provides a drama, an entertainment, an
opportunity to hope and cry and laugh, to forget yourself for a while.
Demanding that the team win the game, the division, the series is asking for
WWF, a fixed outcome has zero interest for me. Unless you can prove to me that
the players aren't trying, or that management wants to field a loser, I will
vehemently disagree that the Buccos owe anyone a refund.
Alan
Alan & Erin Williams
> >From: Alan & Erin Williams will...@mindspring.com
>
> >Nor do you "have to take what the Pirates offer". Go root for the Yankees,
> >instead.
>
> That's not feasible. We can't switch our allegiance because the Pirates suck.
>
> If my kid came home with F's on her report card, should I dump her and adopt
> the Honor Roll student down the block?
Are the Pirates your blood relatives? Extended family members? Why do you feel
so close to them if you dislike them so much?
Of course you love your children, win or lose. And you don't disown them when
they fail. You give them your support and tell them you love them *so long as
they give their best effort*. Aren't the Pirates doing that?
>
>
> By the way, I just heard while listening to the Bucs/Astros game that Ankiel
> threw 29 pitches in today's game and 22 of them were strikes.
See? Rooting for the Pirates is only part of your love of MLB...that being, of
course, the *real product*.
Alan
Derek Davison
<will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Derek Davison wrote:
>
>> --On Tuesday, March 13, 2001, 8:13 AM -0500 Alan & Erin Williams
>> <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> (snipagge massif)
>>
>> >
>> > Honestly, if you can't see a difference between spectating a sporting
>> > event and buying a car, we've reached the end of the thread.
>>
>> I can totally see the difference. If I don't like my Honda, I'll go buy
>> a Saturn. If I don't like the current Pirates, I either have to stop
>> being a baseball fan or change allegiances from a team I've followed
>> since I was a kid. That's not exactly as easy as deciding to change
>> paper towel brands.
>>
>> The difference is that the Pirates have (but are slowly losing) much more
>> brand loyalty than any car company.
>>
>
> Now you're on to something...brand loyalty! But is your loyalty to the
> franchise (Pirates) or to the product (MLB)?
Primarily to the franchise. I like baseball, but I'm a Pirates fan. If
your loyalty is to the product, then you really can't call yourself a fan
of any particular team, right?
> If the reason to attend the
> ball game in Pittsburgh is to see the Pirates win, then WWF can guarantee
> a better result. If the goal is to see a game where the outcome is
> undecided, then you may enjoy yourself more.
The goal is to see a team that at least tries to be competitive, or knows
how to try to be competitive. I'm not asking fora 162-0 season, and I
think you know better than to suggest that I am.
>
> I do understand the point that you (the spectator) may feel that the
> Pirates personnel decisions are poorly made, and that the team could be
> more conpetitive. But this has (in my view) no impact on your 'quality
> of life' as a poorly constructed paper towel or auto would.
How much would a poorly constructed paper towel impact my life? Seriously,
I'll drive to the store and spend two bucks on a different brand of paper
towels. A bad car would be worse, but only marginally so. If all paper
towels were bad, I could see your point. But really, this line of
reasoning is silly.
>
> Can baseball be entertaining when you your team has "no chance" to enter
> post-season play? Absolutely. Does the franchise owe you a winner?
> Absolutely not.
Do I owe them $20 for a ticket when they make ridiculous decisions like
Derek Bell? Absolutely not. Problem is, I'll still pay to attend the
occasional game because I'm a fan of the team. If I get a bad paper towel
or a bad car, I have no problem changing brands.
> Are they playing major league baseball when they finish
> with a record of 70-92? Yes.
>
> If on the other hand, your paper towel dissolves in air, or your car
> implodes at 23,000 miles, have you received 'fair value'? No, absolutely
> not.
>
Have I received fair value for my ticket price when they put together the
kind of roster they have now? Not hardly. What about that portion of my
cable bill that goes from Fox Sports to the Pirates? Am I getting a fair
return for that? I don't even have to know what baseball is to be paying
that fee. I know, I could avoid paying that fee as well. All I'd have to
do is reduce my television options to 5 channels of broadcast TV. What
about that portion of my tax dollars that'll go to financing the bonds that
are paying for PNC Park? Am I getting a fair return for that? Of course,
I could uproot my life and move to avoid that fee as well.
> Fact is, you probably have no brand loyalty to a paper towel (price
> dependent) and brand loyalty to a make of automobile only so long as it
> fulfills your expectation. But if you go to the ballpark *expecting* to
> see the home team win, then you are a Yankee fan. And I fail to see the
> entertainment in that.
Like I said above, I'm not expecting anything except a real effort to put a
winning team on the field. I don't get that from the Pirates.
>
> Because the Pirates are trying to win, because MLB games are not fixed,
> because I get see stars from other teams, triple plays, great plays and
> bonehead manuevers, baseball in Pittsburgh continues to excite me. I
> feel badly for *the players* when they get trounced, but I don't feel
> badly for myself. I have recieved fair value. I have seen a major
> league baseball game.
Good for you. You're a fan of the sport, not of the team. I'm a fan of
the team.
> I enjoy watching the Bowie Baysox, too, but
> hyperbole aside, Derek Bell, Pat Meares and Co. have skills far above
> those of minor leaguers, win or lose.
Do they? You don't think they could easily be replaced at a fraction of
the cost?
> Remember the replacement players?
> Yuck!
>
> If you don't like the current Pirates, that's fine. Don't buy a ticket.
> You have plenty of other uses for your leisure time.
None of which are perfect replacements for Pirate baseball.
> If your car or your
> paper towel disappoints you, you *do* have a beef. You can't very well
> decide to live in filth or walk everywhere.
Did the paper towel industry suddenly become a monopoly with no
supplemental options (like cloth towels)? What about the automotive
industry? Unless I fell asleep and woke up in a socialist system, I don't
have to live in filth because Brawny decided tostop making quality paper
towels. You keep beating home this ridiculous analogy as though my choices
are GM cars or walking. I have a bunch of other transportation options
that are just as or almost as good. On the other hand, if these Pirates
don't suit me, I can't very well go watch another Pittsburgh baseball team.
>
> I know you see my point. Baseball provides a drama, an entertainment, an
> opportunity to hope and cry and laugh, to forget yourself for a while.
> Demanding that the team win the game, the division, the series is asking
> for WWF, a fixed outcome has zero interest for me.
What about demanding that the front office make a reasonable effort to win?
Does that take all the fun out of it for you too?
> Unless you can prove
> to me that the players aren't trying,
In a few cases I think that would be easy to prove.
> or that management wants to field a
> loser,
It's not that they don't want to, they don't know how. In that case, I
want different management.
> I will vehemently disagree that the Buccos owe anyone a refund.
I never said they owe anybody a refund. Anybody who buys a ticket knows
what they're getting. But they certainly owe a better effort to the fans
they are expecting to buy tickets. If this team is in last place come
August and the team is complaining that there are empty seats at home
games, they'll be guilty of expecting more from the fans than the fans can
or should expect from them.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
Derek
Derek Davison
<will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> KatyMaria wrote:
>
>> > From: Alan & Erin Williams will...@mindspring.com
>>
>> > Nor do you "have to take what the Pirates offer". Go root for the
>> > Yankees, instead.
>>
>> That's not feasible. We can't switch our allegiance because the Pirates
>> suck.
>>
>> If my kid came home with F's on her report card, should I dump her and
>> adopt the Honor Roll student down the block?
>
> Are the Pirates your blood relatives? Extended family members? Why do
> you feel so close to them if you dislike them so much?
He's a fan of the Pirates. Are you having trouble understanding what it is
to be a fan of a particular team?
>
> Of course you love your children, win or lose. And you don't disown them
> when they fail. You give them your support and tell them you love them
> *so long as they give their best effort*. Aren't the Pirates doing that?
My hypothetical kids don't expect me to shell out $20 a day to parent them.
>
>>
>>
>> By the way, I just heard while listening to the Bucs/Astros game that
>> Ankiel threw 29 pitches in today's game and 22 of them were strikes.
>
> See? Rooting for the Pirates is only part of your love of MLB...that
> being, of course, the *real product*.
I could be wrong, but I think part of the reason he mentioned Ankiel is
because Ankiel's success impacts the Pirates' ability to contend this year.
Not that they'd have much anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
Derek
Alan & Erin Williams
> --On Tuesday, March 13, 2001, 3:42 PM -0500 Alan & Erin Williams
> <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > KatyMaria wrote:
> >
> >> > From: Alan & Erin Williams will...@mindspring.com
> >>
> >> > Nor do you "have to take what the Pirates offer". Go root for the
> >> > Yankees, instead.
> >>
> >> That's not feasible. We can't switch our allegiance because the Pirates
> >> suck.
> >>
> >> If my kid came home with F's on her report card, should I dump her and
> >> adopt the Honor Roll student down the block?
> >
> > Are the Pirates your blood relatives? Extended family members? Why do
> > you feel so close to them if you dislike them so much?
>
> He's a fan of the Pirates. Are you having trouble understanding what it is
> to be a fan of a particular team?
>
> >
> > Of course you love your children, win or lose. And you don't disown them
> > when they fail. You give them your support and tell them you love them
> > *so long as they give their best effort*. Aren't the Pirates doing that?
>
> My hypothetical kids don't expect me to shell out $20 a day to parent them.
>
LOL! Your *real* kids will cost you a lot more than that!
Alan
Brett Wilson
: --On Tuesday, March 13, 2001, 3:42 PM -0500 Alan & Erin Williams
: <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
: > Are the Pirates your blood relatives? Extended family members? Why do
: > you feel so close to them if you dislike them so much?
: He's a fan of the Pirates. Are you having trouble understanding what it is
: to be a fan of a particular team?
There is a huge difference between THE PIRATES, which is a combination of
feeling, history, and locality, and any particular grouping of players,
administrators, and facilities. The latter can vary from moment to
moment; the former changes very slowly. And in fact there's particular
fan passion invested in judging the distance between the two. So part of
what makes negative feelings about the 2001 Pirates so keen is the
perception that the team is getting farther and farther away from its most
recent glory days without demonstrating any sense of how to get back on
track.
Of course, I'm a Phillies fan, so there's a vast chronicle of negativity
for me revisit whenever I want. --BW.
Alan & Erin Williams
> --On Tuesday, March 13, 2001, 3:36 PM -0500 Alan & Erin Williams
> <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Derek Davison wrote:
> >
> >> --On Tuesday, March 13, 2001, 8:13 AM -0500 Alan & Erin Williams
> >> <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> (snipagge massif)
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Honestly, if you can't see a difference between spectating a sporting
> >> > event and buying a car, we've reached the end of the thread.
> >>
> >> I can totally see the difference. If I don't like my Honda, I'll go buy
> >> a Saturn. If I don't like the current Pirates, I either have to stop
> >> being a baseball fan or change allegiances from a team I've followed
> >> since I was a kid. That's not exactly as easy as deciding to change
> >> paper towel brands.
> >>
> >> The difference is that the Pirates have (but are slowly losing) much more
> >> brand loyalty than any car company.
> >>
> >
> > Now you're on to something...brand loyalty! But is your loyalty to the
> > franchise (Pirates) or to the product (MLB)?
>
> Primarily to the franchise. I like baseball, but I'm a Pirates fan. If
> your loyalty is to the product, then you really can't call yourself a fan
> of any particular team, right?
That's right, Derek. If you're loyal to the team, you're a Pirates fan.
>
>
> > If the reason to attend the
> > ball game in Pittsburgh is to see the Pirates win, then WWF can guarantee
> > a better result. If the goal is to see a game where the outcome is
> > undecided, then you may enjoy yourself more.
>
> The goal is to see a team that at least tries to be competitive, or knows
> how to try to be competitive. I'm not asking fora 162-0 season, and I
> think you know better than to suggest that I am.
>
> >
> > I do understand the point that you (the spectator) may feel that the
> > Pirates personnel decisions are poorly made, and that the team could be
> > more conpetitive. But this has (in my view) no impact on your 'quality
> > of life' as a poorly constructed paper towel or auto would.
>
> How much would a poorly constructed paper towel impact my life? Seriously,
> I'll drive to the store and spend two bucks on a different brand of paper
> towels. A bad car would be worse, but only marginally so. If all paper
> towels were bad, I could see your point. But really, this line of
> reasoning is silly.
How silly is it? You say below that you have 'other options' for
transportation, but above you just jump in the car and buy more towels. The
point you aren't getting is the difference between an actual good or service
with implied expectations of performance and the performance that fans (you)
are demanding of Bonifay and the Pirates.
>
>
> >
> > Can baseball be entertaining when you your team has "no chance" to enter
> > post-season play? Absolutely. Does the franchise owe you a winner?
> > Absolutely not.
>
> Do I owe them $20 for a ticket when they make ridiculous decisions like
> Derek Bell? Absolutely not. Problem is, I'll still pay to attend the
> occasional game because I'm a fan of the team.
Addicted? Or just ready to admit that ***no matter how badly they play***
you're going to support this franchise? No fan owes the Pirates a
thing...unless of course he/she decides to attend a game.
> If I get a bad paper towel
> or a bad car, I have no problem changing brands.
EXACTLY! Because you *expect* performance for your money. All the Pirates (or
any MLB franchise) is offering is entertainment, a seat for nine innings of
baseball. So long as you get that, you have been given fair value. See my
point, yet?
>
>
>
> > Are they playing major league baseball when they finish
> > with a record of 70-92? Yes.
> >
> > If on the other hand, your paper towel dissolves in air, or your car
> > implodes at 23,000 miles, have you received 'fair value'? No, absolutely
> > not.
> >
>
> Have I received fair value for my ticket price when they put together the
> kind of roster they have now? Not hardly. What about that portion of my
> cable bill that goes from Fox Sports to the Pirates? Am I getting a fair
> return for that? I don't even have to know what baseball is to be paying
> that fee. I know, I could avoid paying that fee as well. All I'd have to
> do is reduce my television options to 5 channels of broadcast TV. What
> about that portion of my tax dollars that'll go to financing the bonds that
> are paying for PNC Park? Am I getting a fair return for that? Of course,
> I could uproot my life and move to avoid that fee as well.
As if the Pirates were some evil conglomerate attacking your wallet!
Pittsburgh residents certainly had a choice on the bond issue. As for
Cable...don;t get me started.
Pittsburgh residents decided (rightly!) that it was desirable to keep a MLB
franchise in town. Ticket prices are not valued on the skill (or lack of it)
on the roster. You don't pay more on days that Randy Johnson pitches (but
tickets may be harder to find). Presumably 5 channels of broadcast TV are
inadequate in part because you won't get to watch and bellyache at your
favorite team.
>
>
> > Fact is, you probably have no brand loyalty to a paper towel (price
> > dependent) and brand loyalty to a make of automobile only so long as it
> > fulfills your expectation. But if you go to the ballpark *expecting* to
> > see the home team win, then you are a Yankee fan. And I fail to see the
> > entertainment in that.
>
> Like I said above, I'm not expecting anything except a real effort to put a
> winning team on the field. I don't get that from the Pirates.
Why stay in a loveless marriage? If you knew your wife did not love you,
wasn't trying, and wasn;t going to, would you stay involved? If your business
partner was failing you? If your car dealer was failing you? Yet you say you
are a fan of a team that is not giving you "a real effort". Bizarre.
Why not just face the truth? You love to call them names and insult their
decisions, but you know, deep down, that none of what you are saying is true.
It's either that, or you are a masochist.
>
>
> >
> > Because the Pirates are trying to win, because MLB games are not fixed,
> > because I get see stars from other teams, triple plays, great plays and
> > bonehead manuevers, baseball in Pittsburgh continues to excite me. I
> > feel badly for *the players* when they get trounced, but I don't feel
> > badly for myself. I have recieved fair value. I have seen a major
> > league baseball game.
>
> Good for you. You're a fan of the sport, not of the team. I'm a fan of
> the team.
The team that you say (above) is not making a real effort to put a winning team
on the field. You may want to seek help. It sounds as though you are pursuing
a bad relationship.
I am a Pirate fan. I really enjoy watching the players, I say a little 'Thank
You' everytime I hear Kevin McClatchey's name. I don;t expect them to be
perfect or mistake-free. I do expect them to give their best efforts to Pirate
baseball. I believe they do. You believe they don't.
>
>
> > I enjoy watching the Bowie Baysox, too, but
> > hyperbole aside, Derek Bell, Pat Meares and Co. have skills far above
> > those of minor leaguers, win or lose.
>
> Do they? You don't think they could easily be replaced at a fraction of
> the cost?
Yes. No, I don't.
>
>
> > Remember the replacement players?
> > Yuck!
> >
> > If you don't like the current Pirates, that's fine. Don't buy a ticket.
> > You have plenty of other uses for your leisure time.
>
> None of which are perfect replacements for Pirate baseball.
Which you have just savaged throughout your statements. What would be a
perfect replacement? An iron maiden? A swim with crocodiles? What would be
the perfect replacement for a Team that you claim has as little talent as a AA
franchise, hmmm?
>
>
> > If your car or your
> > paper towel disappoints you, you *do* have a beef. You can't very well
> > decide to live in filth or walk everywhere.
>
> Did the paper towel industry suddenly become a monopoly with no
> supplemental options (like cloth towels)? What about the automotive
> industry? Unless I fell asleep and woke up in a socialist system, I don't
> have to live in filth because Brawny decided tostop making quality paper
> towels. You keep beating home this ridiculous analogy as though my choices
> are GM cars or walking. I have a bunch of other transportation options
> that are just as or almost as good. On the other hand, if these Pirates
> don't suit me, I can't very well go watch another Pittsburgh baseball team.
Sorry to hear that UPenn and Pittsburgh have dropped the sport.
>
>
> >
> > I know you see my point. Baseball provides a drama, an entertainment, an
> > opportunity to hope and cry and laugh, to forget yourself for a while.
> > Demanding that the team win the game, the division, the series is asking
> > for WWF, a fixed outcome has zero interest for me.
>
> What about demanding that the front office make a reasonable effort to win?
> Does that take all the fun out of it for you too?
You find one shred of evidence that the Pirates are not trying to win ballgames
and I promise I will not attend a game this year.
>
>
> > Unless you can prove
> > to me that the players aren't trying,
>
> In a few cases I think that would be easy to prove.
>
>
> > or that management wants to field a
> > loser,
>
> It's not that they don't want to, they don't know how. In that case, I
> want different management.
>
>
> > I will vehemently disagree that the Buccos owe anyone a refund.
>
> I never said they owe anybody a refund. Anybody who buys a ticket knows
> what they're getting. But they certainly owe a better effort to the fans
> they are expecting to buy tickets. If this team is in last place come
> August and the team is complaining that there are empty seats at home
> games, they'll be guilty of expecting more from the fans than the fans can
> or should expect from them.
You seem to be in a great position to judge when a GM is trying or not, when a
player is trying or not and when a team deserves your attendance or not.
Unfortunately, you seem to say, you are addicted and will support this
deliberately bad product anyway. I guess the closest analogy then would be the
cigarette industry.
Maybe if you lived in Chicago in the summer of 1920 you would have a gripe, but
otherwise you have left me unconvinced that I should do anything other than
enjoy Pirate baseball 2001.
Alan
KatyMaria
>Are the Pirates your blood relatives? Extended family members? Why do you
>feel
>so close to them if you dislike them so much?
They aren't blood relatives. Nor extended family members, neither.
I'm looking at the desk my computer is sitting on. There's my Maz Bobble Head
doll. My Pirates clock, clicking every second off. Pictures of me in Three
Rivers taken all three days of the final weekend. My Three Rivers Stadium snow
globe. A Pirates pennant, circa 1960, someone found at a garage sale and gave
to me. My '"O" What A Night!" poster they gave away the week after Cordova
threw the no-no, which has my scorecard underneath. My autographed Brian Giles
ball. In the next room, I must have 30 Pirates hats. You want alternate? I
got alternate. You want Turn Ahead the Clock Night? I got that, too.
Umbrellas and backpacks and parrot dolls and coolers and radios and years and
years worth of scorebooks. Let's not even talk about what I have in my
kitchen.
If you think I dislike the Pirates, you're reading me wrong, or else I'm
writing badly.
The Pirates are what I do with my summer. For one-hundred-sixty-two games a
year, barring vacation or emergency, I am either attending, watching or
listening to the Bucs.
I have known for years that, going in, I am not going to be following a winner.
I know that this year, too. But that doesn't change anything for me. As
excited as I am about going to PNC on March 31, I'll be that excited about
going to a game in September.
There are people here who think they are making the correct statement by
staying away in protest of Cam, and I respect their decision. I could never do
that. The Pirates are so deep in my blood stream that I couldn't stay away, no
matter how much tough love they need. I am not strong enough, nor willing to
give them up.
You asked earlier if we need the Pirates to win. No, I don't *need* that. I
won't be a million dollars richer or ten years younger if the Bucs win.
Nothing in my life will change if the Pirates win the division. Nor will I
jump off the McKees Rocks Bridge if they lose again. I know the best part of
following a team is watching them go from bad to good, to have been there every
step of the way, and to remember what it took to get there.
The problem is, Cam isn't getting me there.
I am getting so long-winded and I haven't even gotten around to answering you
when you asked why I dislike the Pirates.
I love Kevin Young. He is, or seems to be, a very nice man. He's always
engaging and polite to the fans who take in batting practice.
I love Jason Schmidt. I have this naive feeling, that this year, if I just
root for him a bit harder, he'll finally develop into the pitcher they've been
promising us for 5 years.
I love Aramis Ramirez. I plan on bragging about him for years to come.
I love Jason Kendall. I watched him every step of the way in his major league
career and I'm thrilled I get to do it for six more years.
I love Mike Benjamin. On a team where defense is a forgotten commodity, Benji
takes my breath away with his glove.
I love Jose Silva. That's a "pitcher-with-glasses" thing.
I love Josias Manzanillo. Watching him prepare is the flip side of watching
Kris Benson. One wears his emotions on his sleeve while the other is deadly
calm.
I love Keith Osik. I was at the game last year where he did something that
hadn't been done by a position player in a century; he hit and gave up a home
run in the same game. When you're at a game like that, watching the Bucs
getting pounded by the Cards -- it was a Saturday night game. The next home
Saturday night game saw the Royals pound the Bucs. The state of Missouri
scored 35 runs off us those two games -- with 500 people left in the place, all
of them wildly cheering for this little backup catcher to strike out the Cards
lineup, it stays with you.
I don't dislike the Pirates in the least. I love the Pirates. I loved them
before that idiot became GM and I'll love them after he's gone. But loving
them doesn't make me blind to their shortcomings.
>Of course you love your children, win or lose. And you don't disown them
>when
>they fail. You give them your support and tell them you love them *so long
>as
>they give their best effort*. Aren't the Pirates doing that?
>
Do I think Pat Meares is giving his best? Yes, I do. This is as good as Pat
Meares gets. I accept that. It is not his fault Cam Bonifay signed him up
long term based on one good spring training while ignoring everything else
about him. More power to Meares for fooling Cam so completely, although from
the looks of things, fooling Cam Bonifay is as easy as pie.
Eight years of losing baseball, Alan. Eight years. Every story you read that
is a primer on how *not* to run a franchise is about Cam Bonifay and the
Pittsburgh Pirates. Bonifay has turned a very old and very proud franchise
into a laughingstock. When is Bonifay going to *give us his best effort?*
Maybe when that happens, we can stop complaining.
Pravin Ratnam
you going to root for them if they are the Virginia Pirates?
"Alan & Erin Williams" <will...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3AAE8631...@mindspring.com...
Alan & Erin Williams
Beautiful post. I feel your pain. I also agree that staying away from PNC PArk
does nothing to help the team.
Thanks for explaining your views to me.
Alan
David Marc Nieporent
Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> KatyMaria wrote:
> >From: Alan & Erin Williams will...@mindspring.com
> > >Nor do you "have to take what the Pirates offer". Go root for the
> > >Yankees, instead.
> > That's not feasible. We can't switch our allegiance because the Pirates suck.
> > If my kid came home with F's on her report card, should I dump her and
> > adopt the Honor Roll student down the block?
> Are the Pirates your blood relatives? Extended family members? Why do you
> feel so close to them if you dislike them so much?
> Of course you love your children, win or lose. And you don't disown them when
> they fail. You give them your support and tell them you love them *so long
> as they give their best effort*. Aren't the Pirates doing that?
As players, probably. As an organization, not a chance.
---------------------------------------------
David M. Nieporent niep...@alumni.princeton.edu
Mr. Brian Allen
> Pittsburgh residents certainly had a choice on the bond issue.
They did? Last time I checked, the bond issue was trounced, and Mayor Ridge
and his cronies decided to push it through anyways. No, the residents were
NOT given a choice. Not even close. Not even marginally close to being
close.
> Pittsburgh residents decided (rightly!) that it was desirable to keep a
MLB
> franchise in town.
How exactly? By voting 2 to 1 AGAINST the bond issue?
The brain of the brain-washer has itself been washed.
E.H. Carr, What is History?
txyesboy
"Brett Wilson" <bwi...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:98fbsl$eh5$1...@netnews.upenn.edu...
> Tiger59 (Tig...@iname.com) wrote:
> : Has it crossed your mind that
> : maybe NOBODY wants to play in Pittsburgh because of its
> : location and climate??!! Hmmm...if you had the choice between
> : Marlins and Pirates, would you give up 'babes' in So. Beach;
> : fishing in the Keys; or maybe the tropical life of Miami??
>
> That must be why the Marlins sign all the top free agents. &@#!^($*
> large-market teams. --BW.
txyesboy
location. Tiger's point was correct. Have you been to Denver? Have you been
to Pittsburgh?
Where would you rather play and work?
I agree about mismanagement, but who's fault is that?It's not to be lain at
the feet of one man, Bonifay. He doesn't fail to develop every prospect they
bring in.
However, hope is on the horizon, as the Pirates Class A ball prospects will
be moving up quickly through the system, and in not time, Bradley, Burnett,
Guzman, and Benson will make a killer rotation, while House (maybe 1B?)
Davis, Jack Wilson, and Adrian Brown will be the nucleus along with Giles
and Kendall on offense.
Dark times now, bright future to come
"David Marc Nieporent" <niep...@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:nieporen-F330C8...@news.monmouth.com...
> In article <yJEq6.13085$642.1...@news2.atl>,
> "Tiger59" <Tig...@iname.com> wrote:
>
> > You know Paul, I had forgotten about you, but I would love to
> > see whatever credentials make you the EXPERT of the group!
> > Boy, do you contribute a lot of crap! Unbelievable!
>
> > Mr. Expert, I agree that the Pirates have been the embarassment
> > of the decade, but look at the Steelers, not much better. They
> > are small-market teams that can only do so much.
>
> Pittsburgh is the same size market as Denver, where the Rockies don't seem
> to operate under the "can only do so much" principle.
>
> > No money,
> > no stars. Do you know what goes behind the scenes whenever
> > Cam tries to recruite players?? Has it crossed your mind that
> > maybe NOBODY wants to play in Pittsburgh because of its
> > location and climate??!! Hmmm...if you had the choice between
> > Marlins and Pirates, would you give up 'babes' in So. Beach;
> > fishing in the Keys; or maybe the tropical life of Miami??
>
> In the late 80s/early 90s, when the Mets, Yankees -- heck, the whole AL
> East -- was sucking, Peter Gammons was trying to sell the theory that the
> West Coast teams were going to permanently dominate the majors, because
> free agents weren't going to play in dreary East Coast cities when they
> could go west and enjoy the weather, the economy, etc. As usual, he was
> confusing a normal baseball cycle with a baseball trend.
>
> Cleveland, which isn't a whole lot different than Pittsburgh, doesn't seem
> to have the same trouble with talent, do they? Ten years ago, people
would
> have said exactly the same things about Cleveland as you do about
> Pittsburgh -- who would want to play there, in that location and climate,
> if you could play in Miami?
>
> The entire model is flawed. Teams don't become good by signing free
> agents. Teams become good by developing talent. Free agents are the
> difference between a contender and a champion, not the difference between
a
> lousy team and a champion.
>
> The Pirates' failures are not a result of the location, climate, or
market.
> They are the result of incompetence in the front office. They've invested
> in the wrong players, or the right players at the wrong times. And in the
> last 3, 4, 5 years, they've given up any pretense of trying to build a
> winner, instead going for whatever quick fix (Ed Sprague, Mike Kingery,
> Turner Ward) would give them a semi-recognizable name. They'd rather
> suffer through terrible years with Pat Meares or Mike Benjamin than with
> Chad Hermanson or Aramis Ramirez. They'd rather take a Proven player, no
> matter how bad, than an unproven one.
txyesboy
that the organization has become as well.
The money paid for Bell and Mulholland were by no means over market value
for pitchers of their ilk. And, I think you grossly underestimate
Mulholland's value.
He wasn't a stellar starter last year, but as a swingman he was excellent.
He has good control, doesn't allow a lot of HR's and is notorious for
eliminating a running game with one of the best holds and pickoff moves in
the game.
He has a wealth of talent and skill and knowledge to depart upon the young,
up and coming pitchers like Bradley and Burnett and Guzman. Not to mention
current starters Schmidt and Benson.
You ask me, Mulholland came cheap.
From previous discussions I have seen here, many make the mistake that,
somehow, Cam was going to be able to get that ONE player with the combined
monies that were paid this offseason to Mulholland and Bell. Well, it wasn't
going to happen. So, he secured an everyday RF in Bell, and a great veteran
leadership pitcher in Mulholland. All the while, the Pirates payroll still
remains under control.
I guess sometimes it would be nice if people here saw the bright side,
rather than automatically being negative about everything.
<galv...@stargate.net> wrote in message
news:3AABC3CE...@stargate.net...
>
>
> Tiger59 wrote:
>
> > You know Paul, I had forgotten about you, but I would love to
> > see whatever credentials make you the EXPERT of the group!
> > Boy, do you contribute a lot of crap! Unbelievable!
> >
>
> Oh let's see, the fact that I've been many time better at evaluating
talent
> than the entire Pirate organization the past ten seasons, that I've been
> far FAAAAAR better and determining how the Pirates and their competition
> would do during that period.
>
> That's right Cam Bonifay and the rest of his staff are the "experts"
that's
> why they have eight losing seasons under their belt with number nine about
> to get underway. While I have no formal experience in baseball
> management, I also don't have the track record of miserable failure that
> the "experts" who run the Pirates and those who cover them in the local
> media do. I've just managed to tell them every were they'd finish and
> where their failures, from Mike Kingery, Turner Ward, Doug Strange,
Charlie
> Hayes, Kevin Young, Pat Meares, and even the break down of Jason Schmidt
> and Cordova, would be.
>
> Explain to me, how come the "experts" running the Pirates couldn't see
> Schmidt and Cordova's problems on the horizon, but someone such as myself
> with nothing more than some basic evaluation tools could?
>
> "experts" bwaawaww yeah, the Pirates got lot's them around and I could
> still do a better job than Cam Bonifay.
>
> >
> > Mr. Expert, I agree that the Pirates have been the embarassment
> > of the decade, but look at the Steelers, not much better. They
> > are small-market teams that can only do so much. No money,
> > no stars.
>
> Total media fabricated BS. No stars? Then what are Brian Giles, Jason
> Kendall and Kris Benson?
>
> No money? Then what is the stuff they're using to pay Derek Bell, Pat
> Meares, Kevin Young, Mike Benjamin and Terry Mullholland? That's the
> equivalent of a superstar like Jeter or two emerging stars that aren't
free
> agents but could be signed through their prime years.
>
> The Pirates have stars, but they fail because rather than surround those
> stars with young, cheap developing players with talent they CHOOSE to
> surround them with crud like Meares, Young, Bell, Benjamin and
Mullholland.
>
> The Pirates don't lack money, they lack the management to know how to
spend
> money they do have wisely.
>
> The Pirates had a chance to trade Cordova for Jim Edmonds and take all the
> money they pissed away on Meares, Young and Bell and offered him a better
> deal than he got in Saint Louis - but they didn't cause the "experts"
> running their team think you win with broken down pitchers.
>
> > Do you know what goes behind the scenes whenever
> > Cam tries to recruite players??
>
> No, but I don't have to because that's not the Pirates major problem.
They
> shouldn't be chasing free agents in the first place, winning teams never
> do. The fact remains that the best teams have always built from within
and
> used the free agent market to patch holes when they've already become
> successful - the Pirates have never attempted a legitimate rebuilding and
> that's their biggest problem.
>
> > Has it crossed your mind that
> > maybe NOBODY wants to play in Pittsburgh because of its
> > location and climate??!!
>
> No, because that the biggest pile of nonsense I've heard yet. Again, the
> Pirates shouldn't be chasing these players in the first place - is that
how
> they got Giles, Kendall and Benson? NO!
>
> Players won't come to Pittsburgh because the team is a perpetual loser
with
> no direction or clue how to change that.
>
> > Hmmm...if you had the choice between
> > Marlins and Pirates, would you give up 'babes' in So. Beach;
> > fishing in the Keys; or maybe the tropical life of Miami??
>
> Again, why waste time with those players? That's the surest way to build
> and maintain a losing franchise.
>
> The most pathetic part about the Pirates is that not only do they never
> learn from their mistakes, they don't even learn from their successes.
>
> Brian Giles is one of the top offensive threats in baseball, signed well
> below what he could have gotten elsewhere so how does he find himself a
> Pirate?
>
> Simple, the team traded for him and while he was still obligated to them
> for a small amount of money they offered him a contract that was in his
> interest to sign rather than wait until free agency. Milwaukee did it
with
> Sexon, who will be playign along side Jenkins, Burnitz, Loretta and
> Belliard - are they a bigger market with better location and weather than
> Pittsburgh?
>
> When the Brewers do better than the Pirates this season with a fraction of
> the payroll, do you think Bonifay will learn anything? Not likely.
>
> And right now there are a hundred guys 25 to 27 years old who are ready to
> contribute but stuck behind established players, players who could be had
> for nothing and would gladly accept a contract from the Pirates for the
> money Kevin Young, Pat Meares, Mike Benjamin, Derek Bell and Terry
> Mullholland are wasting.
>
> But Cam Bonifay and his team of experts have no clue how to identify them
> or acquire them - that's why the Pirates are losers. That's why they'll
> remain so until the front office is purged of the "experts" like Cam.
>
> --
> Paul Galvanek - Ver. 3.5
>
>
>
txyesboy
swingman, serve as an assitant pitching coach, and teach invaluable skills
to your younger pitching staff. I don't see how this is in any way
"overpaying". Considering that the average salary of a Major League Baseball
Player is now at nearly $2.5Mil a year.
"Derek Davison" <ja...@cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:724676246...@dap-208-40-152-101.nfas.perrysville.sns234.pa.starg
ate.net...
> --On Sunday, March 11, 2001, 1:19 AM +0000 Tiger59 <Tig...@iname.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I rarely enter any messages in the newsgroup because people like Derek
> > make me
> > not want to. Why is it that most of the Pirate's fans are such
pesimists
> > and poor
> > spirited. YES! I am aware that the teams have sucked since 1992,
>
> ..and there's not really much chance that they'll stop sucking anytime in
> the near future. If you're OPTIMISTIC about this team's chances, I need
to
> know what color the sky is in your world.
>
> > but for
> > Pete's sake,
> > give Terry Mulholland a break! He made it to the majors while you, me,
> > and everybody
> > else in the newsgroup only wish they had!
>
> ..and he's been a mediocre pitcher his whole career. Now he's 38. A team
> that was one lefty reliever away from the postseason with a huge bankroll
> would still be pretty boneheaded to shell out $3 million for Terry
> Mulholland. The Pirates are downright moronic for doing it. But we
> already knew that.
>
> >
> > Terry will be good influence to the young pitching staff, and give us
some
> > innings when
> > the staff needs it the most.
>
> A good influence and a nice middle reliever are not worth $3 million per
> year. Particularly not from a 38 year old on a team that should be
> rebuilding with young players.
>
> > Besides, Derek hates him because he is
> > making $3mil. How
> > do you feel about the ones that make 5 times that and sit on the bench
> > because they are
> > sore or their back hurts (when it is obvious that they are being
> > primadonas?? Remember
> > Griffey sitting out a few games because he ws pouting over a spat with
his
> > father, a Reds
> > coach?!! At least Mulholland goes out there every day and does his
best!
>
> So I should go overpay Terry Mulholland because he's a nice guy who tries
> hard? No, sorry. I'd take any five of Griffey's bats over Mulholland at
> this stage of their careers.
>
> >
> > Derek, with all due respect - GROW UP!
>
> I'll make you a deal. I'll grow up if you'll pull your head out of your
> ass. If the overpaying of Terry Mulholland excites you, then you're
> exactly the kind of mark that the Bucs are targeting.
>
> >
> > Mike Corujo
> > Marietta, GA
> > Let's go Bucs!!!
> >
> > PS.
> >
> > Let me make one thing very clear - C.M.G! (Cam must go!) <- one of
the
> > few points made
> > in this newsgroup that I agree with!!! Giving Young and Mears those big
> > long term contracts
> > was worse than when Jimmy Carter sent the Army to rescue the hostages in
> > Iran and the
> > copters and planes crashed into each other, embarassing the nation!
> > Arghhhhhh!
>
> Um, yeah. We're not completely out of touch with reality, are we?
>
> Derek
txyesboy
> / spot starter might have been worth $3M to the Braves, Mets or Cardinals.
> He might have been the final piece of the puzzle for those teams. For the
> Pirates, though, he's a waste of $3M that could have been better spent in
> the development of young players.
I don't understand your point. What magic elixir could they have bought for
$3M dollars to better "develop" them?
I agree wholeheartedly with Doug's post. The $3M WAS spent on a player who
WILL help develop your young pitchers through the off the field and
in-spring training intangibles he'll offer. Terry Mulholland knows his role
full well in Pittsburgh is not to collect a $3M paycheck to "hang on" at the
end of his career. He is here to extoll what virtues he has learned over his
many years in the game.
Maybe, just MAYBE, let's assume they got just ONE of the Starting Pitchers
on the market, like Ashby at $8M. What good does he do? He costs $5M more,
and isn't going to come here to teach anyone. He's here to collect a
paycheck, period.
I hope this makes sense
"Lance Freezeland" <lb...@altamont.net> wrote in message
news:3aac6...@news4.newsfeeds.com...
>
> "Tiger59" <Tig...@iname.com> wrote in message
> news:aXIq6.1$rW5...@news1.atl...
> > I agree with you 1,000%! Also, the fact that nobody
> > wants to play in Pitt must be acknowledged!
>
> > The point that I took advantage of, after a year of
> > reading their crap, is that these two "EXPERTS" need
> > to stay home and watch soap operas instead of being
> > online writing their 'expert opinion', which amounts to
> > the same crap all the time: SHIT!
>
> But you both sidestep the main issue here. A 38 year old middle reliever
> / spot starter might have been worth $3M to the Braves, Mets or Cardinals.
> He might have been the final piece of the puzzle for those teams. For the
> Pirates, though, he's a waste of $3M that could have been better spent in
> the development of young players.
>
> --
> Lance lb...@altamont.net
>
> "We don't rent pigs. Uva Uvam Vivendo Varia Fit."
> Captain Augustus McCrae
> "Astroturf is evidence of the existence of Satan. It was invented because
> grass could not grow in hell." --- Lance
txyesboy
available for $3M a year?
If you think baseball is all about scoring runs, and preventing teams from
scoring, you've grossly oversimplified this game.
galv...@stargate.net> wrote in message
news:3AABC52B...@stargate.net...
>
>
> Doug Childers wrote:
>
> > Look, I only asked this question because I wanted to see how Terry was
> > doing. He will benefit your ballclub.
>
> No he won't, he's hurting the team by wasting money that is needed
elswhere and
> playing at a much lower level that a dozen other cheaper, better options
the
> Pirates had available to them.
>
>
> > He is a team leader who wants to
> > help out the team the best he can.
>
> So what? There are plenty of people who've never picked up a baseball in
their
> live wou could make the same claim, shall we sign them as well?
>
> Baseball teams win by scoring runs and keeping the other team from scoring
runs,
> Terry Mullholland won't contribute on either end of that equation.
>
> > Why dont you accept the fact that you
> > paid for more off the field qualities that you paid for on-the-field
> > qualities.
>
> Oh I'm well aware of that, it's the same reasoning behind dozens of other
free
> agent signings Cam Bonifay has made.
>
> It's also a major factor in the Pirates having eight straight losing
seasons.
>
> > Terry will benefit your pitching staff in more ways than you can
> > deem possible.
>
> No he won't, but won't be until the ninth losing season is completed that
you'll
> understand that.
txyesboy
do so. The difference between Pitt and FLA is that FLA did not enter the FA
market, save for one player: and a good one at that in Charles Johnson.
Meanwhile, the Pirates were hoping to make a splash in the FA market, and
were turned down at every possible level
"Derek Davison" <ja...@cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:775189516...@dap-208-40-154-226.nfas.perrysville.sns234.pa.starg
ate.net...
> --On Sunday, March 11, 2001, 6:14 AM +0000 Tiger59 <Tig...@iname.com>
> wrote:
>
> > You know Paul, I had forgotten about you, but I would love to
> > see whatever credentials make you the EXPERT of the group!
> > Boy, do you contribute a lot of crap! Unbelievable!
>
> But your contributions have really enhanced the discourse, let me tell
you.
>
> >
> > Mr. Expert, I agree that the Pirates have been the embarassment
> > of the decade, but look at the Steelers, not much better. They
> > are small-market teams that can only do so much.
>
> Just like Oakland, Colorado, and Cleveland, right?
>
> > No money,
> > no stars.
>
> So they're paying Derek Bell with what, beads and trinkets? They have
> money, it's just the stars that are missing.
>
> > Do you know what goes behind the scenes whenever
> > Cam tries to recruite players??
>
> Do you? I'd imagine that, since the players Cam "recruits" aren't drawing
> any interest from any other teams, he makes them an outrageous offer and
> they sign it. Then they and their agents have a laughing fit all the way
> to the bank.
>
> > Has it crossed your mind that
> > maybe NOBODY wants to play in Pittsburgh because of its
> > location and climate??!! Hmmm...if you had the choice between
> > Marlins and Pirates, would you give up 'babes' in So. Beach;
> > fishing in the Keys; or maybe the tropical life of Miami??
>
> Look how many big name stars the Marlins are attracting. You must be on
to
> something. Or maybe just on something.
>
> >
> > I respect your comments up until the point were you start
> > 'guessing' what happens behind the scenes. I played in Bradenton
> > 1981-83 and could blow your mind with the crap that goes on when
> > one in 25 players had potential. Sad thing is that once they
> > have one or two good seasons, Pitt is the last city they want to
> > live in. Yes, if they are 30-35 years old, they resign themselves
> > to living in the 'Steel City'. But again, if I made a few millions in
> > salary for doing what I enjoy doing (playing ball) and I had a choice
> > between Pitt, Miami, LA, even NY...well, unless I was born and
> > raised in a small city, ask Rodriguez, Sheffield, Chipper, Javy, Green,
> > etc., where they would rather play (and live!)
>
> Probably wherever they get paid the most. Or shall we assume that
Mussina,
> Jeter, Griffey, Garciaparra, Ramirez, Martinez, Rivera, Piazza, Mondesi,
> Delgado, Sosa, Thomas, et al, have some particular attachment to cold
> weather?
>
> >
> > Give the Bucs a break! So you are a fan...does that give you owner-
> > ship of the team? Does it make you some expert?? I do not
> > think so!
>
> Ownership? No. But I am potentially a paying customer. What the Pirates
> are doing would be akin to a department store stocking all second-hand and
> irregular items and expecting me to keep shopping there.
>
> >
> > You say I should grow up?!! Dude, you are the one who is going
> > to have a stroke early on in life worrying about crap that people
> > with a LIFE should not be losing sleep over.
>
> ..and yet you're worrying about our worries. What does that say about
you?
>
> >
> > AMEN!
> >
> > And don't bother with some long-detailed crap response, trying to
> > insult me. I do HAVE A LIFE and no matter what you say:
> >
> > 1. You will not get to me!
>
> Apparently we already have.
>
> > 2. Cam will probably remain in office for a few more years
> > (unfortunatelly!)
>
> Time to crack open that dictionary.
>
> > 3. The Bucs will not break .500 anytime soon
>
> What? No blinding optimism? You're a schmuk. Get out of here and let us
> real fans talk about how wonderful things are.
>
> >
> > But you know what????
> >
> >
> > LET'S GO BUCS!!!
> >
> > Mike Corujo
> > Marietta, GA
>
>
> Derek
>
David Marc Nieporent
"txyesboy" <donte...@home.com> wrote:
> Name a better #5 Free Agent pitcher on this past winter's market that was
> available for $3M a year?
Bobby Jones.
> If you think baseball is all about scoring runs, and preventing teams from
> scoring, you've grossly oversimplified this game.
That's what it's about. Those two things determine whether the team wins
or loses.
David Marc Nieporent
"txyesboy" <donte...@home.com> wrote:
> > But you both sidestep the main issue here. A 38 year old middle reliever
> > / spot starter might have been worth $3M to the Braves, Mets or Cardinals.
> > He might have been the final piece of the puzzle for those teams. For the
> > Pirates, though, he's a waste of $3M that could have been better spent in
> > the development of young players.
> I don't understand your point. What magic elixir could they have bought for
> $3M dollars to better "develop" them?
> I agree wholeheartedly with Doug's post. The $3M WAS spent on a player who
> WILL help develop your young pitchers through the off the field and
> in-spring training intangibles he'll offer. Terry Mulholland knows his role
> full well in Pittsburgh is not to collect a $3M paycheck to "hang on" at the
> end of his career. He is here to extoll what virtues he has learned over his
> many years in the game.
What, exactly, do you think they pay their pitching coach for?
Voros
> Name a better #5 Free Agent pitcher on this past winter's market that was
> available for $3M a year?
> If you think baseball is all about scoring runs, and preventing teams from
> scoring, you've grossly oversimplified this game.
Hee hee!
YEs who goes to the playoffs at the end of the year is a combination of a
variety of factors. Style points. Team character. Player quotability. The
infamous salary handicap system. Many more too numerous to list here. A
team's won/loss record, which is determined completely and totally by how
many runs the team scores and allows, is but a small factor in determining
playoff teams and the eventual champion.
Voros
> In article <OQDr6.165540$bb.15...@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com>,
> "txyesboy" <donte...@home.com> wrote:
>> Name a better #5 Free Agent pitcher on this past winter's market that was
>> available for $3M a year?
> Bobby Jones.
Erik Hiljus.
>> If you think baseball is all about scoring runs, and preventing teams from
>> scoring, you've grossly oversimplified this game.
> That's what it's about. Those two things determine whether the team wins
> or loses.
David, if you think Golf is all about taking as few shots as possible to
complete 18 holes, you've grossly oversimplified the game.
Brett Wilson
: txyesboy <donte...@home.com> wrote:
: > If you think baseball is all about scoring runs, and preventing teams from
: > scoring, you've grossly oversimplified this game.
: YEs who goes to the playoffs at the end of the year is a combination of a
: variety of factors. Style points. Team character. Player quotability. The
: infamous salary handicap system. Many more too numerous to list here. A
: team's won/loss record, which is determined completely and totally by how
: many runs the team scores and allows, is but a small factor in determining
: playoff teams and the eventual champion.
Naturally; that's why they use polls instead of having a playoff.
--BW.
txyesboy
well as teach pitchers subtle nuances are invaluable skills to have.
"David Marc Nieporent" <niep...@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:nieporen-56C266...@news.monmouth.com...
Mr. Brian Allen
I guess this is as kind of a compliment as Bell can get. Bell sucks, my
man. He could be replaced quite easily by a handful of minor leaguers in
the Pirate system for the league minimum.
> I guess sometimes it would be nice if people here saw the bright side,
> rather than automatically being negative about everything.
Gee, eight straight losing seasons tends to do that to a person.
The brain of the brain-washer has itself been washed.
E.H. Carr, What is History?
Alan & Erin Williams
> > So, he secured an everyday RF in Bell,
>
> I guess this is as kind of a compliment as Bell can get. Bell sucks, my
> man. He could be replaced quite easily by a handful of minor leaguers in
> the Pirate system for the league minimum.
Name two.
The Pirates, like all MLB franchises, pay close attention to the potential
and the performance of their ML players. If they chose instead to pursue
Derek Bell would you not entertain the possibility that the Pirate farm
system does not contain a player ready to be the everyday right fielder?
Especially since the previous manager, Lamont, had an excellent reputation
for patience with youngsters?
>
>
> > I guess sometimes it would be nice if people here saw the bright side,
> > rather than automatically being negative about everything.
>
> Gee, eight straight losing seasons tends to do that to a person.
As a record for futility, that does not even come close. I'd rather see
this squad and it's new skipper play for a few months before I pronounced it
a mistake.
Alan
Alan & Erin Williams
They pay him to coach the pitchers.
There is also a value, however, to a guy who 'leads by example'. If Mulhulland's
work ethic and devotion to his craft is equal to his reputation, then Benson, et
al will benefit by his presence. A guy doesn't get to be Terry's age in the bigs
without understanding how to maintain his conditioning, how to pitch to the
league and the umpires, how to still win when his best stuff doesn't surface. A
coach can preach, but there is also a virtue in seeing the ideas put into action.
I'm willing to wait and see if the winter's roster moves pay off with an improved
team.
Alan
Mr. Brian Allen
How about Hermanson, for starters? Does it make sense to play a retread
that has proven to be nothing better than mediocre over a youngster that
actually has a chance to be something, and comes at a fraction of the cost?
Defending the Bell signing is very, VERY hard to do. It's quite possibly
the worst free agent signing of Bonifay's well-distinguished career. And
that's saying something.
> The Pirates, like all MLB franchises, pay close attention to the potential
> and the performance of their ML players. If they chose instead to pursue
> Derek Bell would you not entertain the possibility that the Pirate farm
> system does not contain a player ready to be the everyday right fielder?
No, because the Pirate brass is moronic. Are you telling me that the
Pirates have no better shortstop in their system than Pat Meares? Are you
telling me that the Pirates have no better first baseman in their system
than Kevin Young? Just because they chose to sign Bell and play him doesn't
mean he doesn't stink. It simply means the team has no smarts when it comes
to free agency.
> Especially since the previous manager, Lamont, had an excellent reputation
> for patience with youngsters?
LOL! Right. Like when he blasted Ramirez and Hermanson in the press last
year? Or when he blamed last season's disaster almost entirely on the
youngsters? Where in the hell did you come up with this idea?
Voros
>> > So, he secured an everyday RF in Bell,
>>
>> I guess this is as kind of a compliment as Bell can get. Bell sucks, my
>> man. He could be replaced quite easily by a handful of minor leaguers in
>> the Pirate system for the league minimum.
> Name two.
Adam Hyzdu and Emil Brown...
...and if you beg the question here, I will not be happy.
> The Pirates, like all MLB franchises, pay close attention to the potential
> and the performance of their ML players. If they chose instead to pursue
> Derek Bell would you not entertain the possibility that the Pirate farm
> system does not contain a player ready to be the everyday right fielder?
No I don't. Don't you think if they thought Matt Stairs could hit 38
Homers and drive in 100 runs, the Expos would have played Matt Stairs?
Don't you think the Marlins would have played Brian Daubach if he could
hit?
Don't you think the White Sox would have kept Olmedo Saenz to replace
Ventura if he could hit well enough?
Don't you think the Royals would have kept Glendon Rusch if he could be
the best pitcher on their staff?
Don't you think the Indians would have kept Brian Giles?
Don't you think the Pirates would have kept Jon Lieber?
I'm long past believing that any decisions a major league front office
makes is necessarily the correct one.
David Marc Nieporent
> > "txyesboy" <donte...@home.com> wrote:
> > > I don't understand your point. What magic elixir could they have bought for
> > > $3M dollars to better "develop" them?
> > > I agree wholeheartedly with Doug's post. The $3M WAS spent on a player who
> > > WILL help develop your young pitchers through the off the field and
> > > in-spring training intangibles he'll offer. Terry Mulholland knows his role
> > > full well in Pittsburgh is not to collect a $3M paycheck to "hang on" at the
> > > end of his career. He is here to extoll what virtues he has learned over
> > > his many years in the game.
> > What, exactly, do you think they pay their pitching coach for?
> They pay him to coach the pitchers.
So why would they pay someone else $3M to do the same thing?
> There is also a value, however, to a guy who 'leads by example'.
How much value? $3M and a roster spot value?
> If Mulhulland's
> work ethic and devotion to his craft is equal to his reputation, then Benson, et
> al will benefit by his presence. A guy doesn't get to be Terry's age in the bigs
> without understanding how to maintain his conditioning, how to pitch to the
> league and the umpires, how to still win when his best stuff doesn't surface. A
> coach can preach, but there is also a virtue in seeing the ideas put into
> action.
Then sign Jesse Orosco, who'd probably accept close to league minimum.
> I'm willing to wait and see if the winter's roster moves pay off with an
> improved team.
Well, it's not as if you have a choice one way or the other.
But they won 69 games last year. "Improved team" isn't a very high
standard. They need to be working for a *good* team. And there's no way
that signing Derek Bell to a big contract makes a team good.
Derek Davison
<will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Derek Davison wrote:
>
>> --On Tuesday, March 13, 2001, 3:36 PM -0500 Alan & Erin Williams
>> <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Derek Davison wrote:
>> >
>> >> --On Tuesday, March 13, 2001, 8:13 AM -0500 Alan & Erin Williams
We're mixing metaphors, aren't we? In the case of a bad paper towel, I
drive to the store and buy another brand. In the case of a bad car, I get
a rental or I take the bus until I can get a new one.
> The point you aren't getting is the difference between an actual good or
> service with implied expectations of performance and the performance that
> fans (you) are demanding of Bonifay and the Pirates.
There aren't expectations of on-field performance, but there are (and
should be) expectations of front office performance. If Cam isn't doing
the best job he can do, he owes something more to the fans. If he is, then
McClatchey owes the fans a new GM.
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Can baseball be entertaining when you your team has "no chance" to
>> > enter post-season play? Absolutely. Does the franchise owe you a
>> > winner? Absolutely not.
>>
>> Do I owe them $20 for a ticket when they make ridiculous decisions like
>> Derek Bell? Absolutely not. Problem is, I'll still pay to attend the
>> occasional game because I'm a fan of the team.
>
> Addicted? Or just ready to admit that ***no matter how badly they play***
> you're going to support this franchise? No fan owes the Pirates a
> thing...unless of course he/she decides to attend a game.
Of course I'll support the franchise. I'm a fan. That doesn't absolve the
franchise of some obligation to put a decent team on the field. Unless
they don't care how many people show up.
>
>> If I get a bad paper towel
>> or a bad car, I have no problem changing brands.
>
> EXACTLY! Because you *expect* performance for your money. All the
> Pirates (or any MLB franchise) is offering is entertainment, a seat for
> nine innings of baseball. So long as you get that, you have been given
> fair value. See my point, yet?
No. They owe nine innings of baseball and a genuine attempt at winning
baseball. Maybe you're equally entertained whether the team is good or
bad, but I think that home attendance will bear me out when I say that most
people are not entertained when they see the current Pirate team play.
>
>>
>
>>
>>
>> > Are they playing major league baseball when they finish
>> > with a record of 70-92? Yes.
>> >
>> > If on the other hand, your paper towel dissolves in air, or your car
>> > implodes at 23,000 miles, have you received 'fair value'? No,
>> > absolutely not.
>> >
>>
>> Have I received fair value for my ticket price when they put together the
>> kind of roster they have now? Not hardly. What about that portion of my
>> cable bill that goes from Fox Sports to the Pirates? Am I getting a fair
>> return for that? I don't even have to know what baseball is to be paying
>> that fee. I know, I could avoid paying that fee as well. All I'd have
>> to do is reduce my television options to 5 channels of broadcast TV.
>> What about that portion of my tax dollars that'll go to financing the
>> bonds that are paying for PNC Park? Am I getting a fair return for
>> that? Of course, I could uproot my life and move to avoid that fee as
>> well.
>
> As if the Pirates were some evil conglomerate attacking your wallet!
> Pittsburgh residents certainly had a choice on the bond issue.
Actually, it was Allegheny County residents, and we did choose. We voted
no.
> As for
> Cable...don;t get me started.
>
> Pittsburgh residents decided (rightly!) that it was desirable to keep a
> MLB franchise in town.
No, they didn't. The only referendum that was held on the issue was
soundly defeated. When did the residents change their minds? Please, cite
the poll or referendum you're talking about.
> Ticket prices are not valued on the skill (or
> lack of it) on the roster. You don't pay more on days that Randy Johnson
> pitches (but tickets may be harder to find).
Ticket prices are determined by what the team feels the public will pay,
just like everything else. But if they don't put a good team on the field,
willingness to pay goes down.
> Presumably 5 channels of
> broadcast TV are inadequate in part because you won't get to watch and
> bellyache at your favorite team.
In a very small part. There's a little bit more on cable than the sports
channel.
>
>>
>>
>> > Fact is, you probably have no brand loyalty to a paper towel (price
>> > dependent) and brand loyalty to a make of automobile only so long as it
>> > fulfills your expectation. But if you go to the ballpark *expecting*
>> > to see the home team win, then you are a Yankee fan. And I fail to
>> > see the entertainment in that.
>>
>> Like I said above, I'm not expecting anything except a real effort to
>> put a winning team on the field. I don't get that from the Pirates.
>
> Why stay in a loveless marriage? If you knew your wife did not love you,
> wasn't trying, and wasn;t going to, would you stay involved?
To paraphrase something you said earlier, if you can't tell the difference
between being a sports fan and being married, I'm afraid this thread is at
an end.
> If your
> business partner was failing you? If your car dealer was failing you?
> Yet you say you are a fan of a team that is not giving you "a real
> effort". Bizarre.
>
> Why not just face the truth? You love to call them names and insult their
> decisions, but you know, deep down, that none of what you are saying is
> true.
It's not? Pat Meares doesn't suck? Cam isn't a terrible GM?
> It's either that, or you are a masochist.
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Because the Pirates are trying to win, because MLB games are not fixed,
>> > because I get see stars from other teams, triple plays, great plays and
>> > bonehead manuevers, baseball in Pittsburgh continues to excite me. I
>> > feel badly for *the players* when they get trounced, but I don't feel
>> > badly for myself. I have recieved fair value. I have seen a major
>> > league baseball game.
>>
>> Good for you. You're a fan of the sport, not of the team. I'm a fan of
>> the team.
>
> The team that you say (above) is not making a real effort to put a
> winning team on the field. You may want to seek help. It sounds as
> though you are pursuing a bad relationship.
If it bothers you this much that some people aren't bright eyed optimists
about the Pirates chances, maybe you're the one who needs to seek help.
I'm a fan because I grew up watching the great Pirates teams of the early
90s. I wasn't even particularly critical of the team or Cam until a couple
of years ago when it became apparent to me that he either doesn't know what
he's doing or he just doesn't care very much. I believe that this team
will turn things around with some new management. I'll complain about the
current management, but I won't just stop being a fan when they aren't
winning as you seem to suggest I should.
>
> I am a Pirate fan.
I really, really wonder if you are.
> I really enjoy watching the players, I say a little
> 'Thank You' everytime I hear Kevin McClatchey's name. I don;t expect
> them to be perfect or mistake-free. I do expect them to give their best
> efforts to Pirate baseball. I believe they do. You believe they don't.
I'm sure most of the players do. It's the front office I don't believe in.
>
>>
>>
>> > I enjoy watching the Bowie Baysox, too, but
>> > hyperbole aside, Derek Bell, Pat Meares and Co. have skills far above
>> > those of minor leaguers, win or lose.
>>
>> Do they? You don't think they could easily be replaced at a fraction of
>> the cost?
>
> Yes. No, I don't.
This is a whole other can of worms. If you don't see the folly of signing
Bell and Co. to big contracts, it's your knowledge of the game you profess
to love so much that I have to question.
>
>>
>>
>> > Remember the replacement players?
>> > Yuck!
>> >
>> > If you don't like the current Pirates, that's fine. Don't buy a
>> > ticket. You have plenty of other uses for your leisure time.
>>
>> None of which are perfect replacements for Pirate baseball.
>
> Which you have just savaged throughout your statements. What would be a
> perfect replacement? An iron maiden? A swim with crocodiles? What
> would be the perfect replacement for a Team that you claim has as little
> talent as a AA franchise, hmmm?
>
>>
>>
>> > If your car or your
>> > paper towel disappoints you, you *do* have a beef. You can't very well
>> > decide to live in filth or walk everywhere.
>>
>> Did the paper towel industry suddenly become a monopoly with no
>> supplemental options (like cloth towels)? What about the automotive
>> industry? Unless I fell asleep and woke up in a socialist system, I
>> don't have to live in filth because Brawny decided tostop making quality
>> paper towels. You keep beating home this ridiculous analogy as though
>> my choices are GM cars or walking. I have a bunch of other
>> transportation options that are just as or almost as good. On the other
>> hand, if these Pirates don't suit me, I can't very well go watch another
>> Pittsburgh baseball team.
>
> Sorry to hear that UPenn and Pittsburgh have dropped the sport.
So now college baseball is a perfect replacement for the Majors? Then why
do YOU bother with the Pirates? I'm sure it's much cheaper to attend
college games. Better yet, go watch some beer league team at a local park
for free.
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > I know you see my point. Baseball provides a drama, an entertainment,
>> > an opportunity to hope and cry and laugh, to forget yourself for a
>> > while. Demanding that the team win the game, the division, the series
>> > is asking for WWF, a fixed outcome has zero interest for me.
>>
>> What about demanding that the front office make a reasonable effort to
>> win? Does that take all the fun out of it for you too?
>
> You find one shred of evidence that the Pirates are not trying to win
> ballgames and I promise I will not attend a game this year.
Derek Bell
Pat Meares
Kevin Young
Terry Mulholland
None of them will help this team win games this year, but all are signed to
huge contracts.
>
>>
>>
>> > Unless you can prove
>> > to me that the players aren't trying,
>>
>> In a few cases I think that would be easy to prove.
>
>>
>>
>> > or that management wants to field a
>> > loser,
>>
>> It's not that they don't want to, they don't know how. In that case, I
>> want different management.
>
>>
>>
>> > I will vehemently disagree that the Buccos owe anyone a refund.
>>
>> I never said they owe anybody a refund. Anybody who buys a ticket knows
>> what they're getting. But they certainly owe a better effort to the fans
>> they are expecting to buy tickets. If this team is in last place come
>> August and the team is complaining that there are empty seats at home
>> games, they'll be guilty of expecting more from the fans than the fans
>> can or should expect from them.
>
> You seem to be in a great position to judge when a GM is trying or not,
> when a player is trying or not and when a team deserves your attendance
> or not.
Since I'm the one holding the cash and deciding whether or not to buy a
ticket, I'd say that I am.
>
> Unfortunately, you seem to say, you are addicted and will support this
> deliberately bad product anyway. I guess the closest analogy then would
> be the cigarette industry.
And as most smokers would say, what difference is it to you if I smoke?
>
> Maybe if you lived in Chicago in the summer of 1920 you would have a
> gripe, but otherwise you have left me unconvinced that I should do
> anything other than enjoy Pirate baseball 2001.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You can attend a tractor pull
and douse yourself in sulfuric acid for all I care. You're the one who's
trying to tell me how to live my life. If my pessimism bothers you that
much, skip to the next post.
>
> Alan
>
Derek
Derek Davison
<will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> The Pirates, like all MLB franchises, pay close attention to the potential
> and the performance of their ML players. If they chose instead to pursue
> Derek Bell would you not entertain the possibility that the Pirate farm
> system does not contain a player ready to be the everyday right fielder?
Ah, the infamous "if they did it, it must have been the right thing to do"
argument. It's hard to argue with that. I mean, if Cam is infallible,
every move he makes must be the correct one, no? Surely even you must
realize the fallicy here.
Derek
Lance Freezeland
<will...@mindspring.com> gave us this:
>"Mr. Brian Allen" wrote:
>
>> > So, he secured an everyday RF in Bell,
>>
>> I guess this is as kind of a compliment as Bell can get. Bell sucks, my
>> man. He could be replaced quite easily by a handful of minor leaguers in
>> the Pirate system for the league minimum.
>
>Name two.
Chad Hermanson and Emil Brown.
Geez, Adam Hyzdu could probably put up Bell's numbers.
>The Pirates, like all MLB franchises, pay close attention to the potential
>and the performance of their ML players. If they chose instead to pursue
>Derek Bell would you not entertain the possibility that the Pirate farm
>system does not contain a player ready to be the everyday right fielder?
No. You've got to remember the man making these decisions and his
track record as a judge of talent.
>Especially since the previous manager, Lamont, had an excellent reputation
>for patience with youngsters?
Unfortunately, the men who decided which players Lamont was given were
somewhat less patient.
--
Lance lb...@altamont.net
"I believe in the Church of Baseball." -- Annie Savoy
Alan & Erin Williams
What's a 'fallicy'? ;-)
And "if they did it, it must have been the right thing to do" is not at all
what I have written. Bonifay is not a one man front office, DD. They've got
minor league scouts, minor league managers, roving hitting instructors, the
whole banana. You think that they could *hide* a major league outfielder in
their farm system?
Nah, you geniuses are undoubtedly right. Let's give Emil Brown 400 more ML
atbats. Spend the season watching Chad chase the major league slider.
(Hermanson will be fine, eventually. Here's rooting for your rosterspot, big
guy.)
Alan
Lance Freezeland
<will...@mindspring.com> gave us this:
>Derek Davison wrote:
>
>> --On Wednesday, March 14, 2001, 9:33 AM -0500 Alan & Erin Williams
>> <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> > The Pirates, like all MLB franchises, pay close attention to the potential
>> > and the performance of their ML players. If they chose instead to pursue
>> > Derek Bell would you not entertain the possibility that the Pirate farm
>> > system does not contain a player ready to be the everyday right fielder?
>>
>> Ah, the infamous "if they did it, it must have been the right thing to do"
>> argument. It's hard to argue with that. I mean, if Cam is infallible,
>> every move he makes must be the correct one, no? Surely even you must
>> realize the fallicy here.
>
>What's a 'fallicy'? ;-)
>
>And "if they did it, it must have been the right thing to do" is not at all
>what I have written. Bonifay is not a one man front office, DD. They've got
>minor league scouts, minor league managers, roving hitting instructors, the
>whole banana. You think that they could *hide* a major league outfielder in
>their farm system?
And look at the dandy results they've gotten. This same "braintrust"
chose to sign Pat Meares to his ridiculous contract, Alan.
>Nah, you geniuses are undoubtedly right. Let's give Emil Brown 400 more ML
>atbats. Spend the season watching Chad chase the major league slider.
>(Hermanson will be fine, eventually. Here's rooting for your rosterspot, big
>guy.)
They won't do any worse than Bell, and at least they are on the
ascending side of their career curves.
Alan & Erin Williams
> Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > "Mr. Brian Allen" wrote:
>
> >> > So, he secured an everyday RF in Bell,
> >>
> >> I guess this is as kind of a compliment as Bell can get. Bell sucks, my
> >> man. He could be replaced quite easily by a handful of minor leaguers in
> >> the Pirate system for the league minimum.
>
> > Name two.
>
> Adam Hyzdu and Emil Brown...
Hey I root for Emil, and I hope that he can prove that he can concentrate and
hit NL pitching consistently.
I don't consider either of them a replacement for a proven Major League
outfielder...yet. But at least you named two (proving, unlike some others
here, that you can read). Let's watch and see how it plays out.
>
>
> ...and if you beg the question here, I will not be happy.
>
> > The Pirates, like all MLB franchises, pay close attention to the potential
> > and the performance of their ML players. If they chose instead to pursue
> > Derek Bell would you not entertain the possibility that the Pirate farm
> > system does not contain a player ready to be the everyday right fielder?
>
> No I don't. Don't you think if they thought Matt Stairs could hit 38
> Homers and drive in 100 runs, the Expos would have played Matt Stairs?
>
> Don't you think the Marlins would have played Brian Daubach if he could
> hit?
>
> Don't you think the White Sox would have kept Olmedo Saenz to replace
> Ventura if he could hit well enough?
>
> Don't you think the Royals would have kept Glendon Rusch if he could be
> the best pitcher on their staff?
>
> Don't you think the Indians would have kept Brian Giles?
>
> Don't you think the Pirates would have kept Jon Lieber?
>
> I'm long past believing that any decisions a major league front office
> makes is necessarily the correct one.
There's a world of difference, however, between being a skeptic and being a
cynic. Some posters here obviously believe that any Pirate front office
decision is necessarily the *wrong one*. That's as big a sin as swallowing
them whole, IMO.
Alan
Lance Freezeland
<will...@mindspring.com> gave us this:
>Voros wrote:
>
>> Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> > "Mr. Brian Allen" wrote:
>>
>> >> > So, he secured an everyday RF in Bell,
>> >>
>> >> I guess this is as kind of a compliment as Bell can get. Bell sucks, my
>> >> man. He could be replaced quite easily by a handful of minor leaguers in
>> >> the Pirate system for the league minimum.
>>
>> > Name two.
>>
>> Adam Hyzdu and Emil Brown...
>
>Hey I root for Emil, and I hope that he can prove that he can concentrate and
>hit NL pitching consistently.
>
>I don't consider either of them a replacement for a proven Major League
>outfielder...yet.
What has Bell proven the past several years, other than the fact that
he is very easily replaceable?
>But at least you named two (proving, unlike some others
>here, that you can read). Let's watch and see how it plays out.
>> ...and if you beg the question here, I will not be happy.
>>
>> > The Pirates, like all MLB franchises, pay close attention to the potential
>> > and the performance of their ML players. If they chose instead to pursue
>> > Derek Bell would you not entertain the possibility that the Pirate farm
>> > system does not contain a player ready to be the everyday right fielder?
>>
>> No I don't. Don't you think if they thought Matt Stairs could hit 38
>> Homers and drive in 100 runs, the Expos would have played Matt Stairs?
>>
>> Don't you think the Marlins would have played Brian Daubach if he could
>> hit?
>>
>> Don't you think the White Sox would have kept Olmedo Saenz to replace
>> Ventura if he could hit well enough?
>>
>> Don't you think the Royals would have kept Glendon Rusch if he could be
>> the best pitcher on their staff?
>>
>> Don't you think the Indians would have kept Brian Giles?
>>
>> Don't you think the Pirates would have kept Jon Lieber?
>>
>> I'm long past believing that any decisions a major league front office
>> makes is necessarily the correct one.
>
>There's a world of difference, however, between being a skeptic and being a
>cynic. Some posters here obviously believe that any Pirate front office
>decision is necessarily the *wrong one*. That's as big a sin as swallowing
>them whole, IMO.
That's just completely untrue, Alan. The praise in here for the
re-singings of Kendall, Giles and Benson was damn near universal.
--
Lance lb...@altamont.net
"I believe in the Church of Baseball." -- Annie Savoy
Alan & Erin Williams
> (snip)
>
> >
> > Maybe if you lived in Chicago in the summer of 1920 you would have a
> > gripe, but otherwise you have left me unconvinced that I should do
> > anything other than enjoy Pirate baseball 2001.
>
> I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You can attend a tractor pull
> and douse yourself in sulfuric acid for all I care. You're the one who's
> trying to tell me how to live my life. If my pessimism bothers you that
> much, skip to the next post.
>
I'll type slowly for you...
USENET is about discussion and the exchange of ideas. I'm not trying to tell
you how to live your life, I know little to nothing about your life (other than
you are not an economist) and don't care to know.
I was curious, however, to see whether you could defend your pessimistic
outlook with some persuasive argument or facts.
Thanks for providing the answer.
Alan
Keith Law
"Alan & Erin Williams" <will...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3AAE9EF6...@mindspring.com...
> As if the Pirates were some evil conglomerate attacking your wallet!
> Pittsburgh residents certainly had a choice on the bond issue.
Yes. They voted NO by a margin of two to one, smart guy. Only the
legislature's Immaculate Deception secured funding for this boondoggle of a
park.
> As for
> Cable...don;t get me started.
Why not? Your posts can't get any longer.
> Pittsburgh residents decided (rightly!) that it was desirable to keep a
MLB
> franchise in town.
Why was this "rightly?" Why is it sensible to spend public tax monies to
support a private enterprise whose product is only accessible to those who
can afford it and that creates very few local jobs, almost all for unskilled
laborers?
> Ticket prices are not valued on the skill (or lack of it)
> on the roster.
They're priced based on demand for the tickets, which correlates with team
performance.
> Why not just face the truth? You love to call them names and insult their
> decisions, but you know, deep down, that none of what you are saying is
true.
> It's either that, or you are a masochist.
Welcome to Earth. I presume you're new here. Try living in New England.
> > > I enjoy watching the Bowie Baysox, too, but
> > > hyperbole aside, Derek Bell, Pat Meares and Co. have skills far above
> > > those of minor leaguers, win or lose.
> >
> > Do they? You don't think they could easily be replaced at a fraction of
> > the cost?
>
> Yes. No, I don't.
Then you have a lot to learn about baseball. You are operating under
incorrect assumptions about the talent gap between the bottom of the
major-league pool and the top of the minor-league pool. This has been a key
component of Oakland's recent success.
> On the other hand, if these Pirates
> > don't suit me, I can't very well go watch another Pittsburgh baseball
team.
>
> Sorry to hear that UPenn and Pittsburgh have dropped the sport.
Nothing like a six-hour drive each way to see a UPenn game.
You certainly don't have to live or have lived in Pittsburgh to have an
opinion on the subject, but some basic knowledge of the area and the events
around the team and the stadium would help you fight your losing cause.
> You seem to be in a great position to judge when a GM is trying or not,
when a
> player is trying or not and when a team deserves your attendance or not.
This is not a question of trying; it's a question of competence. The
stakeholders in any business have a right to demand that the leadership be
replaced when the leadership is incompetent. That demand may or may not be
met, but it is certainly well within every Pirate fan's rights to point out
that Cam Bonifay is doing a bad job and to ask the team to remove him before
he does any further damage.
--
-Keith Law
Author, Baseball Prospectus 2001
www.baseballprospectus.com
Keith Law
"Alan & Erin Williams" <will...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3AAFD5D3...@mindspring.com...
>
>
> And "if they did it, it must have been the right thing to do" is not at
all
> what I have written. Bonifay is not a one man front office, DD. They've
got
> minor league scouts, minor league managers, roving hitting instructors,
the
> whole banana. You think that they could *hide* a major league outfielder
in
> their farm system?
Matt Stairs. Edgar Martinez. Wade Boggs. Geronimo Berroa. Brian Daubach.
Heck, Kevin Young. All those guys were left in the minors because the powers
that be did not believe the could contribute at the major league level.
Front offices do this *all the time*.
> Nah, you geniuses are undoubtedly right. Let's give Emil Brown 400 more
ML
> atbats.
Derek Bell cost $4.5MM a year for two guaranteed years and we know exactly
what we'll get: Lousy offense and mediocre defense.
Emil Brown costs $250,000 a year with no guarantee for 2002, and there is a
reasonable shot that he will outproduce Bell at the plate and a near
certainty that he will outproduce Bell in the field.
For a team like the Pirates, that does not have an infinite player budget
and that is not going to make the playoffs this year, which player is the
more sensible choice: The expensive mediocrity, or the cheap player with
good upside?
Voros
> Voros wrote:
>> Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> > "Mr. Brian Allen" wrote:
>>
>> >> > So, he secured an everyday RF in Bell,
>> >>
>> >> I guess this is as kind of a compliment as Bell can get. Bell sucks, my
>> >> man. He could be replaced quite easily by a handful of minor leaguers in
>> >> the Pirate system for the league minimum.
>>
>> > Name two.
>>
>> Adam Hyzdu and Emil Brown...
> Hey I root for Emil, and I hope that he can prove that he can concentrate and
> hit NL pitching consistently.
> I don't consider either of them a replacement for a proven Major League
> outfielder...yet. But at least you named two (proving, unlike some others
> here, that you can read). Let's watch and see how it plays out.
This is really the million dollar question concerning these guys:
How exactly do they get to be "proven major leaguers" if they're never
allowed to have a job in the majors?
The same way Bell did. Somebody didn't care and threw him in there. I
would be stunned to the very core if Adam Hyzdu couldn't outhit Bell over
a period of about two years. Mildly surprised if he didn't do it in one.
Actually I named a dozen players in another thread who I think combined
will match Bell's numbers at least, all of whom could have been had for
basically nothing this offseason by the Pirates. Hyzdu's on the list.
>> ...and if you beg the question here, I will not be happy.
>>
>> > The Pirates, like all MLB franchises, pay close attention to the potential
>> > and the performance of their ML players. If they chose instead to pursue
>> > Derek Bell would you not entertain the possibility that the Pirate farm
>> > system does not contain a player ready to be the everyday right fielder?
>>
>> No I don't. Don't you think if they thought Matt Stairs could hit 38
>> Homers and drive in 100 runs, the Expos would have played Matt Stairs?
>>
>> Don't you think the Marlins would have played Brian Daubach if he could
>> hit?
>>
>> Don't you think the White Sox would have kept Olmedo Saenz to replace
>> Ventura if he could hit well enough?
>>
>> Don't you think the Royals would have kept Glendon Rusch if he could be
>> the best pitcher on their staff?
>>
>> Don't you think the Indians would have kept Brian Giles?
>>
>> Don't you think the Pirates would have kept Jon Lieber?
>>
>> I'm long past believing that any decisions a major league front office
>> makes is necessarily the correct one.
> There's a world of difference, however, between being a skeptic and being a
> cynic. Some posters here obviously believe that any Pirate front office
> decision is necessarily the *wrong one*. That's as big a sin as swallowing
> them whole, IMO.
Then don't count me as one of them. I thought the Giles deal was
terriffic. The Cordero trade for Ramirez and Wilson was outstanding.
Trading Martin for Vander Wal was good, not so much for getting Vander
Wal, though he surprised everyone with a terriffic season, but because the
Pirates needed to open up their outfield spot, and Martin was expendable.
But the Sprague, Meares, Cordero and Bell signings were simply
unforgiveable errors. The Meares signing in particular where it looked
likely that Meares would remain unsigned by opening day, and a month later
the pirates are throwing a 3 mil multi-year deal at him.
Even if Meares wasn't a bad player (he is), bidding against yourself and
then extending the contract several years represents a fundamental lack of
recognition of the market forces on the part of Bonifay, and is rather
damning I think.
Derek Davison
<will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Derek Davison wrote:
>
>> --On Wednesday, March 14, 2001, 9:33 AM -0500 Alan & Erin Williams
>> <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> > The Pirates, like all MLB franchises, pay close attention to the
>> > potential and the performance of their ML players. If they chose
>> > instead to pursue Derek Bell would you not entertain the possibility
>> > that the Pirate farm system does not contain a player ready to be the
>> > everyday right fielder?
>>
>> Ah, the infamous "if they did it, it must have been the right thing to
>> do" argument. It's hard to argue with that. I mean, if Cam is
>> infallible, every move he makes must be the correct one, no? Surely
>> even you must realize the fallicy here.
>
> What's a 'fallicy'? ;-)
Wow, you spell-check too? The nitpicking is complete.
>
> And "if they did it, it must have been the right thing to do" is not at
> all what I have written. Bonifay is not a one man front office, DD.
> They've got minor league scouts, minor league managers, roving hitting
> instructors, the whole banana.
All hired by? Right, Cam.
> You think that they could *hide* a major
> league outfielder in their farm system?
It's not about hiding anybody. The failure is that they don't let young
players struggle and develop at the major league level. If Cam were
running the Angels, Troy Glaus would be still be fighting for a job instead
of being one of the best third basemen in the league.
>
> Nah, you geniuses are undoubtedly right. Let's give Emil Brown 400 more
> ML atbats. Spend the season watching Chad chase the major league slider.
> (Hermanson will be fine, eventually. Here's rooting for your rosterspot,
> big guy.)
No, let's watch Derek Bell hit .230 with no walks and no power for $5
million this year. Do you really prefer this option?
>
> Alan
>
Derek
Derek Davison
<will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Derek Davison wrote:
>
>> (snip)
>>
>> >
>> > Maybe if you lived in Chicago in the summer of 1920 you would have a
>> > gripe, but otherwise you have left me unconvinced that I should do
>> > anything other than enjoy Pirate baseball 2001.
>>
>> I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You can attend a tractor
>> pull and douse yourself in sulfuric acid for all I care. You're the one
>> who's trying to tell me how to live my life. If my pessimism bothers
>> you that much, skip to the next post.
>>
>
> I'll type slowly for you...
>
> USENET is about discussion and the exchange of ideas. I'm not trying to
> tell you how to live your life, I know little to nothing about your life
> (other than you are not an economist) and don't care to know.
Yet you're the one who chides me for leaving you "unconvinced."
>
> I was curious, however, to see whether you could defend your pessimistic
> outlook with some persuasive argument or facts.
I see. But the paper towel argument was really very persuasive. It's hard
to be considered persuasive by someone who won't really listen and respond
to your arguments.
>
> Thanks for providing the answer.
>
> Alan
>
Derek
David Marc Nieporent
Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Voros wrote:
> > Alan & Erin Williams <will...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > > "Mr. Brian Allen" wrote:
> > >> > So, he secured an everyday RF in Bell,
> > >> I guess this is as kind of a compliment as Bell can get. Bell
> > >> sucks, my man. He could be replaced quite easily by a handful of
> > >> minor leaguers in the Pirate system for the league minimum.
> > > Name two.
> > Adam Hyzdu and Emil Brown...
> Hey I root for Emil, and I hope that he can prove that he can concentrate
> and hit NL pitching consistently.
> I don't consider either of them a replacement for a proven Major League
> outfielder...yet. But at least you named two (proving, unlike some others
> here, that you can read). Let's watch and see how it plays out.
I don't understand what you think the word "proven" means. Apparently it's
one of those odd sports words, like "consistent," that people use when they
want to say something nice about a player with no talent.
What exactly has Bell proven?
Why is it a good thing to be proven?