"Animal Magnetism"CD
Jim Doolittle
In article <19970806223...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
wak...@aol.com (Wako357) wrote:
> This is being posted for Kjartain Arnorsson
>
[complaint snipped]
Hmm. I did see an 'Animal Magnetism 2' CD being hawked at Duckcon this
year...I think it's in the latest Mailbox Books update as well. From what
I overheard, it sold pretty well.
And for the morbidly curious, no, I didn't buy either CD. The artwork
seemed a bit spoogy for my taste.
-Jim, tossing in a random comment.
--
Jim Doolittle
dool...@uiuc.edu
gi...@avara.com
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/doolittl
PGP public key available
Daphne Lage
Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<jaguar1E...@netcom.com>...
> Well, that was the entire basis of the project (codenamed: "Spooge A
> Day"). Well? Any artist here that contributed to the project get
> satisfaction from Kevin?
Well, the first CD was my first and LAST project with Kevin Duane. I only
received payment after REFUSING to send him any more artwork. I had given
him copies of the first 2 (out of 14) "contracted" pieces not trusting him
one bit about payment. After waiting a YEAR to get paid for the first two
images, I finally got paid in cash at CF. When I first signed on for this
project, I was told from all sides that the CD was a scam but I figured if
it worked, it mean some nice extra cash... well, that's why I only sent him
2 pieces and Xeroxes at that. After not receiving any money for those
pieces I just ignored the rest of the project, even when Kevin was trying
to harass me via e-mail for more pictures. I didn't even know I was on the
damn CD until someone TOLD me I was. I didn't even get that info from Kevin
himself!
Yes, the CD is a scam and I only have copies because Kevin gave them to me
(1 of each) in hopes that I'll contribute again.
No f***in' way.
Kevin Duane is a used car (CD?) salesman and it probably would be for the
best if no one worked with him.
--Daphne Lage
egor...@intercall.com
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Specializing in fantasy art, erotica, comic book illustration
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Kay Shapero
On <Aug 06 16:22>, dool...@uiuc.edu (Jim Doolittle) wrote;
> This is being posted for Kjartain Arnorsson
>
JD>[complaint snipped]
JD>Hmm. I did see an 'Animal Magnetism 2' CD being hawked at Duckcon
JD>this year...I think it's in the latest Mailbox Books update as well.
JD>From what I overheard, it sold pretty well.
JD>And for the morbidly curious, no, I didn't buy either CD. The
JD>artwork seemed a bit spoogy for my taste.
Considering that it's all the outgrowth of Kevin's "Spooge a day" project,
I would think so. Kjartain isn't the only one who's got horror stories
about him either.
Rachel Cawley a.k.a. Cataroo
> Well? Any artist here that contributed to the project get
>satisfaction from Kevin?
I know a few that were paid off moreso in goods then actual
money. I was -finally- paid off at SDCC's furry party
but that was primarily because I went up to him
while other people were around and was pretty blunt about
receiving payment.
Good luck with you others...
I think we all learned a lesson here
even if there were contacts drawn and breeched.
Cataroo
Ucalegon
I've never had any problems with Duane personally but I was
hearing stories of his sleaziness more than a decade ago;
in connection with his *I Hate Unicorns* book, for example.
Guess he hasn't changed.
Acag, Treesong
Acag, Treesong (ucal...@aol.com)
Micole The Ermine
In article <01bca36a$7c9f3240$941b4dcf@default>,
"Daphne Lage" <egor...@intercall.com> wrote:
> Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote in article
> <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>...
> > Well, that was the entire basis of the project (codenamed: "Spooge A
> > satisfaction from Kevin?
> Well, the first CD was my first and LAST project with Kevin Duane. I only
> received payment after REFUSING to send him any more artwork. I had given
> him copies of the first 2 (out of 14) "contracted" pieces not trusting him
> one bit about payment. After waiting a YEAR to get paid for the first two
> images, I finally got paid in cash at CF. When I first signed on for this
> project, I was told from all sides that the CD was a scam but I figured if
> it worked, it mean some nice extra cash... well, that's why I only sent him
> 2 pieces and Xeroxes at that. After not receiving any money for those
> pieces I just ignored the rest of the project, even when Kevin was trying
> to harass me via e-mail for more pictures. I didn't even know I was on the
> damn CD until someone TOLD me I was. I didn't even get that info from Kevin
> himself!
My name is Lisa.
(chorus: Hi, Lisa!)
I an artist ripped off by Kevin Duane.
(chorus: We hear you, Lisa!)
I didn't know Kevin from Adam when he approached me and Monika about the
'spooge a day' project. I had the feeling that it was all a scam, but at
the same time the young, ever-hopeful optimist part of me said 'go for
it! It will at least get your art out there somewhere besides three
people's hidden folders.' So I joined on hoping for the best and
expecting the worst. I even got back into one of my older techniques of
smudge-work to zip off the pictures as fast as possible.
I didn't hear anything from him after the initial meeting, so I figured
the project died stillborn like so many others. Then I get word from
Brian Harp that Kevin's been pestering him, harrassing him on the phone
about getting his images and if Brian's talked to me about _my_ images. I
didn't know that Brian was even involved in this project, and was a
little irked that Kevin made some assumptions about my friendship with
Harp rather than just use the usual lines of communication.
After cajoling and threats, Kevin gave me _some_ money, and I sent him
the rest of the images (email, not even xeroxed). He tried to convince me
to receive the rest of my owed money in the form of barter of hardware,
which I flatly refused -- especially since I can get anything I want for
cheaper than he'd find it. Brian was not so lucky and got wowed into the
idea -- his requested piece of harware to cover the costs was a new Wacom
Tablet to replace his tiny old ArtPad. Kevin came by my apartment in
Sunnyvale _once_ to hand me a few buck and 'deliver' Brian's hardware --
a Calcomp tablet, obviously not the current model and is incompatible
with the Wacom drivers that Brian already had. I discovered that the
'hardware' bartering that Kevin did was either CD's to Hardware swapping
with people he knew with the stuff, or worse yet outright stolen goods he
garnered as part of a different scam!
When he continued to ignore messages about repayment, I stuck a couple of
the images out in Gallery. *Then* he contacted me, sputtering something
about breach of contract. By the very contract I am holding in my hands,
he had already broken it 6 months prior, so I ignored the threats.
Besides, there's this little thing in Calfornia called the "Livelihood
Clause" : If I'm an artist by profession, and your contract prevents me
from acting in part or in whole the practice of my profession, the
contract is null and void automatically.
At CF8 he finally paid me off... sort of. Half in cash, half in a stack
of the bloody CD's. When he yammered about new projects he was doing, I
said in no uncertain terms that I would not be a part of any of them
unless I get paid in full for the _current_ mess and get paid _in
advance_ for the new one. He conveniently chose to forget those words
when he came by my table at Albany Anthrocon, nonchalantly asking Wolf
and I (Ken wasn't there) how our schedules where and then tried to babble
enthusiasticly to garner out interest about his new Skunks CD project. I
was more polite than Wolf about the brush off.
> Yes, the CD is a scam and I only have copies because Kevin gave them to me
> (1 of each) in hopes that I'll contribute again.
That's okay... he'll just find fresh new (read, inexperienced and naive)
artists to snag into his net.... like Ollie Canal. It's sad to say it,
but until he's put behind bars someplace, he'll just find more victims to
pluck from our expanding fandom, because the newcommers don't know any
better.
> No f***in' way.
>
> Kevin Duane is a used car (CD?) salesman and it probably would be for the
> best if no one worked with him.
Agreed! Sadly, the only way some of the 'lucky' artists who got CD's in
lieu of payment would be able to recoup their losses would be to sell the
bloody things, which means more people will see the CD's and that will
only encourage Mr. Duane into more projects.
ermine
home email: Khr...@InOrbit.com
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Don Sanders
In article <33EA51...@ma.ultranet.com>, jeff....@ummed.edu wrote:
***Snippies!! sorry Daphne *****
>Only comment I can say about Duane is that a couple people I talked to
>at AAC greatly disliked his hard-sale tactics for the CD. Too much of
>an "in your face" sales approach that would shame a Used-Car dealer..
>
>....Hmmmm
>
>On second thought, I'd better not comment on this...
>
>-Skorzy
>
I know the feeling all too well, I was approched at the Yiffnet get-together
at AAC, the guy was all over me, when I finally broke down and bought the CD
from him, he gave me back my change, but no disk! Well, so much for my vow to
stop bite the salesman, this doggie has been burnt.
Don Sanders
Dsan Tsan on #furry |If yiffing is an act, then who is acting?
Chosin Tsan on FurryMuck |(quote from an unknown vulpine)
Valsen Tsan on Tapestries |
and once in a while, Bad_Karma on #Furry. |
http://www.dreamscape.com/dsand101/dsan.htm |
(my furry page) Email dsan...@future.dreamscape.com |Sorry about the simple Signature file (just a newbie)
amet...@cin.net
In Article<8710448...@dejanews.com>, <jenn...@toysrus.com> writes:
> Path:
news.cin.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!news-east.sprintlink.net!news-dc-26.spri
ntlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!infeed1.internet
mci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail
> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 08:11:32 -0600
> From: jenn...@toysrus.com (Micole The Ermine)
> Subject: Re: "Animal Magnetism"CD
> Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry
> Message-ID: <8710448...@dejanews.com>
> Organization: Deja News Posting Service
> References: <19970806223...@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<doolittl-060...@port33.lnd.com> <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>
<01bca36a$7c9f3240$941b4dcf@default>
> X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Aug 08 12:54:45 1997 GMT
> X-Originating-IP-Addr: 206.34.177.66 (toysrus-bh.tru.com)
> X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.01 (Win95; I)
> X-Authenticated-Sender: jenn...@toysrus.com (Micole The Ermine)
> Lines: 98
> Xref: news.cin.net alt.fan.furry:83529
Micole the Ermine wrote:
>
> That's okay... he'll just find fresh new (read, inexperienced and naive)
> artists to snag into his net.... like Ollie Canal. It's sad to say it,
> but until he's put behind bars someplace, he'll just find more victims to
> pluck from our expanding fandom, because the newcommers don't know any
> better.
Well, I never heard of Kevin Duane before this, but now thanks to your
post here some of us newer artists will be able to avoid that pitfall in the
first place, and will never give him art in the first place =:)
SEE YA LATER,
Brian McPherson =:)
Brian Dysart
In article <8710448...@dejanews.com>,
Micole The Ermine <jenn...@toysrus.com> wrote:
[the "It was huge." snip]
>Agreed! Sadly, the only way some of the 'lucky' artists who got CD's in
>lieu of payment would be able to recoup their losses would be to sell the
>bloody things, which means more people will see the CD's and that will
>only encourage Mr. Duane into more projects.
Throwing gasoline onto the fire... I was considering purchasing the CDs,
but having heard about this travesty, I think I'll pass. I wonder,
though, what would happen if every unpaid artist use their contributed
pieces elsewhere? (Well, those they have, unlike Karno's.) Micole's
argument about who broke the contract first would probably hold for any of
them (as long as they'd received nothing from Mr. Duane; even a few of the
CDs might make it a grey situation). Submit the pictures to Gallery or
Yarf!, or include them in portfolios, etc. Heck, they could upload the
the pictures to the 'net somewhere, saying, "he refused to pay me, folks,
so don't bother getting the CD if you want the art."
The idea of a CD of exclusive furry art is cool; unfortunately it was
organized by a @toad.
--
Brian Dysart | Ours is not to reason why...
bdy...@rahul.net | "...and eight for the fruit bat."
Charles Gray
jenn...@toysrus.com (Micole The Ermine) wrote:
>After cajoling and threats, Kevin gave me _some_ money, and I sent him
>the rest of the images (email, not even xeroxed). He tried to convince me
>to receive the rest of my owed money in the form of barter of hardware,
>which I flatly refused -- especially since I can get anything I want for
>cheaper than he'd find it. Brian was not so lucky and got wowed into the
>idea -- his requested piece of harware to cover the costs was a new Wacom
>Tablet to replace his tiny old ArtPad. Kevin came by my apartment in
>Sunnyvale _once_ to hand me a few buck and 'deliver' Brian's hardware --
>a Calcomp tablet, obviously not the current model and is incompatible
>with the Wacom drivers that Brian already had. I discovered that the
>'hardware' bartering that Kevin did was either CD's to Hardware swapping
>with people he knew with the stuff, or worse yet outright stolen goods he
>garnered as part of a different scam!
Stolen goods? Kevin's a fence?
Also, for those artists who are still upset at Kevin... Hit him in
small claims. You might not get your money back, but you probably
would win, and it would do wonders at enforcing proper behavior.
Sean Wilkinson
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn <sko...@ma.ultranet.com> wrote in article
<33EA51...@ma.ultranet.com>...
> Only comment I can say about Duane is that a couple people I talked to
> at AAC greatly disliked his hard-sale tactics for the CD. Too much of
> an "in your face" sales approach that would shame a Used-Car dealer..
::nods:: Yep, I've gotten the hard-sell spiel from him at CF7 and CFE2.
He _scares_ me, Mommy...
--
-- Sean Wilkinson -- swilk...@mail.spaminator.techplus.com --
-- Web Art Archive: www.escape.ca/~eek/sw/ --
-- To send e-mail, remove "spaminator." in address --
Mark Atwood
Is this the "Kevin Duane" and "Animal Magnatism" CD that was running a
computer slideshow of XXX spooge scans at the most recent ConFurence
Artist's Alley?
Remember thinking that that was unwise and wrong in more ways than
one, spooge being broadcast where mundain and underage eyes are sure
to see it, and selling a commercial product in a space reserved for
artists with no $....
--
Mark Atwood | Thank you gentlemen, you are everything we have come to
z...@ampersand.com | expect from years of government training. -- MIB Zed
Glen Wooten
Mark Atwood (z...@ampersand.com) wrote:
: Is this the "Kevin Duane" and "Animal Magnatism" CD that was running a
: computer slideshow of XXX spooge scans at the most recent ConFurence
: Artist's Alley?
It is...
: Remember thinking that that was unwise and wrong in more ways than
: one, spooge being broadcast where mundain and underage eyes are sure
: to see it, and selling a commercial product in a space reserved for
: artists with no $....
That's why there will be a much stricter enforcement of the rules that
were in place...
--
Glen Wooten
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| primary: jag...@netcom.com | secondary: glen....@fanciful.org |
_____________________________________________________________________
| Terrie's web page: http://users.aol.com/amperprodx/littlepaw.html |
_____________________________________________________________________
Scout
> That's okay... he'll just find fresh new (read, inexperienced and
> naive)
> artists to snag into his net.... like Ollie Canal. It's sad to say it,
>
> but until he's put behind bars someplace, he'll just find more victims
> to
> pluck from our expanding fandom, because the newcommers don't know any
>
> better.
Actually, I understand there WAS a three-county warrant out for him
in New York a while back, when he defaulted on payment for his "I Hate
Unicorns" book. But he skipped. And it's since lapsed. And anyway, I
don't believe you can be extradicted on a three-county warrant anyway.
I hope Kevin doesn't go to jail anytime soon because I'd have to pay
for it (hmmmm, Kevin in Kingston Pen. Dropping the soap... nah, he'd
probably like that. :) ). I would rather he gets deported back to the
States first. :)
Scout
Mark Atwood wrote:
> Is this the "Kevin Duane" and "Animal Magnatism" CD that was running a
>
> computer slideshow of XXX spooge scans at the most recent ConFurence
> Artist's Alley?
>
> Remember thinking that that was unwise and wrong in more ways than
> one, spooge being broadcast where mundain and underage eyes are sure
> to see it, and selling a commercial product in a space reserved for
> artists with no $....
Yeah, the best part was when he set this up at Duckon in '96. I was
with him (he was using my laptop, connected to his monitor, to run the
show). He set it up in his room and left the door open. Meanwhile, he
was handing out ice cream with liquor poured over it. Some folks were
ignoring the ice cream and just going for the booze. He must have had
$250 worth of hooch on the go. Now he was handing this stuff out to
anyone who breezed in and blinked twice at his flashing spooge, without
a liquor licence, or any permission from the hotel that I know of.
In Ontario, the age of majority for booze is 19. HuggyMouse pointed
out to Kevin that, gee whiz, brainiac, in Illinois, it's 21. Kevin had
been slogging booze to legal minors most of the evening.
The most hilarious moment came when two guys came in -- I don't even
think they were furry -- and they helped themselves to Kevin's booze and
ice cream. Then they turned to the spooge show, and one of them
sneered, "Is this REALLY necessary?" Jesus, I thought Kevin was going
to swallow his beard. He nearly ATE the guy. It was all I could do to
keep a straight face. :)
This guy should be on a sitcom.
Scout
> Micole's
> argument about who broke the contract first would probably hold for
> any of
> them (as long as they'd received nothing from Mr. Duane; even a few of
> the
> CDs might make it a grey situation). Submit the pictures to Gallery
> or
> Yarf!, or include them in portfolios, etc. Heck, they could upload
> the
> the pictures to the 'net somewhere, saying, "he refused to pay me,
> folks,
> so don't bother getting the CD if you want the art."
There's no question of who breached. According to Kevin's
contracts, a person is due his or her money no later than three months
"from the time of acceptance". Kevin has been stretching this every
which-way from Mars to get out of payments, or delay, but from what
Taral tells me of such things, "acceptance" is legally implied in Kevin
closing his hands on the artwork and walking away with it (since at that
point, he's the possessor and can duplicate it). At that point, the
clock begins ticking.
90 days later, if you don't have full payment in your paw, he's in
breach. By my calculations, Fandom could, about now, legally sit down
with Kevin as the roast turkey this Christmas.
Anyone want the drumstick? :)
Ucalegon
Given the extensive testimony that Kevin Duane is a crook,
dealing in stolen goods (most egregiously, art stolen from
Kjartan Arnorsson), wouldn't it be in order for all furry cons
to refuse him any dealing space--including Artist Alley? And
perhaps even membership?
If so, who should be contacted?
Acag, Treesong (ucal...@aol.com)
Tehrasha Darkon
In article <33EDDA...@novia.net>, fur...@novia.net wrote:
> One (1) "Spooge A Day" subscription (including a CDROM of the year's
> images) was around $60 I believe.
It was, I know it was.
> KD might have gotten a free CD burner from somewhere, but the cheapest
> I've seen blank recordable CDs go for is around $5 each.
He outsourced the burning from a professional shop.
(there are storys of a messed up burn which caused delays in its release)
> Other facts to consider was that I know of people who had paid for
> this service, but never got a single byte of data, whereas there have
> been a few "people that matter in furry fandom" who had been given
> several months worth of images by Kevin.
Those that were on the SAD mailing list recieved approx 5 months
worth of images, then all communication with Kevin dissappeared for
7 months. Then he announced that the CDs were done and ready.
The odd thing was, he never mentioned the name of the CD in question.
I had to find out from another fur that the Animal Magnetism CD
(which i had seen being flogged at 3 conventions I had attended)
was what i had been waiting for.
I did finally get the CD I had pre-payed for, just a year late.
I have since avoided contact with Kevin whenever possible.
> About the only thing that surprizes me about this thread was that it
> took so long to finally get here.
I think it took this long for all the customers to realize that
their case was NOT the only one of its kind. And that all the
bad rumors about the project that floated around at conventions
were based on valid fact.
> Just my two cents worth.
>
> fur...@novia.net
Theres my $60 worth..
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
dar...@netins.net | FurryMUCK | Furtoonia | Tehrasha Darkon
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do not taunt Happy_Fun_Ball(tm)" -- SNL
Friends, remember to remove the .spam from the address to respond.
All unsolicited commercial Email cheerfully forwarded to postmasters.
X...@webtv.net
During the Furdance at SDCC I rememebr this decrepit looking individual
set up by the doorway with a laptop. Everyone present at the furdance
told me to stay away from this "evil " individual, incluiding those I
consider to be overly flambouyant myself.
Not exactly a mark of favorable distinction...
http://www.huzzah.org/
http://www.reenactor.net/
http://www.smartlink.net/~custer/
Doodles
*sigh*
There was some discussion of this with Sy and Rod. No, they aren't
enamored of the fellow, either. But we can't do it. We've never banned
anyone from the con yet, and it's something Rod and Sy are loathe to
start doing, even with Duane. Can't say I blame them. It's not a
precident that would ultimately help the con, because once folks are
being banned, it starts snowballing and we get asked why we aren't
banning the spooge monkeys and the gun nuts and all the other groups
that offend one side or the other. And he can't have been held liable
for breaking the rules of the Artist's Alley or Dealer's Den in the
past, because until now those rules have never been specifically laid
out and given to the dealers. That changes this year. In fact, I'll
post those rules and the rest of the DD material after I finish typing
this.
He's paid cash for a Publisher's Row Table and will be located there
instead of taking up Artist Alley space. He is aware of the changes in
rules and in the intent to enforce them. And why those changes were
made. If he fails to follow the rules, rules he and everyone else will
have to sign off as having seen before I give them their table space at
CF9, he's out. I _hate_ having to do this. 99% of the dealers give no
trouble at all. Most of the rest have problems that are solved without
such actions.
Thanks, Kevin.
Andrew Thompson
Ucalegon (ucal...@aol.com) wrote:
: Given the extensive testimony that Kevin Duane is a crook,
: dealing in stolen goods (most egregiously, art stolen from
: Kjartan Arnorsson), wouldn't it be in order for all furry cons
: to refuse him any dealing space--including Artist Alley? And
: perhaps even membership?
Perhaps not a bad idea, although someone else made a good point against
doing so, namely that once you start a precedent of banning, it's hard to
stop. On the other hand, Kevin seems to be a special case, given the
comments of (z...@ampersand.com Mark Atwood at Ampersand, Inc.):
: Remember thinking that that was unwise and wrong in more ways than
: one, spooge being broadcast where mundain and underage eyes are sure
: to see it, and selling a commercial product in a space reserved for
: artists with no $....
He was pulling this stunt at Duckon '97, too, trying anyway he could to
set up in the Artists' Den since he didn't get a dealer table. The Duckon
Artists' Den rules specified that artists there could sell ONLY their own
work, so he tried pushing the grey zone by giving contributors CD's to
sell. They guy even tried to argue that since his disk had a text
file he wrote on it, it WAS his own work. Ultimately I believe he was
selling from a table in the lobby. And you thought Artists' Alley was
bad. In short, it's become plainly obvious that this man will grasp for
any loophole he possibly can.
Scout
Doodles wrote:
He's paid cash for a Publisher's Row Table...
CASH?
Where did Kevin Duane get CASH?
What's next, does he turn water into wine? :)
Scout
Jim Doolittle
> Mark Atwood wrote:
>
> > Is this the "Kevin Duane" and "Animal Magnatism" CD that was running a
> >
> > computer slideshow of XXX spooge scans at the most recent ConFurence
> > Artist's Alley?
> >
> > Remember thinking that that was unwise and wrong in more ways than
> > one, spooge being broadcast where mundain and underage eyes are sure
> > to see it, and selling a commercial product in a space reserved for
> > artists with no $....
>
> Yeah, the best part was when he set this up at Duckon in '96. I was
> with him (he was using my laptop, connected to his monitor, to run the
> show). He set it up in his room and left the door open. Meanwhile, he
*shudder* Friday afternoon he had it setup in the _hotel lobby_! Mundanes,
little kids (yes, that includes the 10 year old [or thereabouts] sitting
at the next table, five feet from him), and god knows who else all had a
wonderful view of all the spooge. And yes, he was selling the CDs,
although con policy clearly stated that sales were limited to the dealers
room if you had a table, and the artists den if you were selling your own
work. Someone evidently reported him to con security, but they showed up
mere moments after he had packed and left for somewhere else...
-Jim
PGP 5.0 public key available
Ucalegon
In article <33D4FA...@primenet.com>, Doodles <doo...@primenet.com>
writes:
>It's not a
>precident that would ultimately help the con, because once folks are
>being banned, it starts snowballing and we get asked why we aren't
>banning the spooge monkeys and the gun nuts and all the other groups
>that offend one side or the other.
Invalid argument. He would not be banned for offending anyone;
he would be banned for being a crook. For trafficking in stolen
goods. The only reason he doesn't have the police after him is
that his victims are far away and scattered and the individual
petty larcenies are too small to be worth pursuing at a distance.
I think cons have every right to ban criminals from their dealer's
rooms. Where's the slippery slope in that?
And from now on if I'm ever at a con where Duane's hawking
his stuff I'll make it a point, whenever I'm near and see anyone
checking his stuff out, of going over and asking them not to
buy stolen goods.
Custer J. Winston
>He was pulling this stunt at Duckon '97, too, trying anyway he could to
> it's become plainly obvious that this man will grasp for any loophole he
possibly can.
He was set up at the Furdance / furry party at SDCC as well, though at
the time I didn't know who he was. Laptop was set up and I suppose he was
sellign disks there too, though I've never had any dealings with the individual
myself.
--
=================================================
FCW1a A- C++ D H- M P- R- T+ W+ Z++++ Sm S-- RLMA
-------------------------------------------------
A+ C N D+ E++ F H+++ I+++ P+++ SM S*
=================================================
Elf Sternberg
In article <33EDDA...@novia.net>
"fur...@novia.net" <fur...@novia.net> writes:
>KD might have gotten a free CD burner from somewhere, but the cheapest
>I've seen blank recordable CDs go for is around $5 each.
There's a service in Seattle (and I imagine in other places) that
will burn a CD at the rate of $995 for 1000, or about a dollar per CD.
They charge an outrageous amount for prep (up to $500 if you have the
contents of your CD on floppies; a little less if you bring in seven ZIP
disks), but if you bring in your own template CD, they'll waive that and
just do the bulk production. (I found this out while researching what it
would take to produce the Journal Entries Website on CD).
None of which puts Kevin off the hook...
Elf !!!
--
Elf Sternberg Balkanize Usenet!
e...@halcyon.com www.halcyon.com/elf
Public key available
Scout
Ucalegon wrote:
> Invalid argument. He would not be banned for offending anyone;
> he would be banned for being a crook. For trafficking in stolen
> goods. The only reason he doesn't have the police after him is
> that his victims are far away and scattered and the individual
> petty larcenies are too small to be worth pursuing at a distance.
> I think cons have every right to ban criminals from their dealer's
> rooms. Where's the slippery slope in that?
I think Doodles has a point, though. You say it yourself; they're
just petty little larcenies. Everyone commits them from time to time;
he just seems to make stock and trade of them. But the point is,
they're petty. Accusations, they're largely rumor and opinion. Until
he gets arrested or shows up with a lit stick of dynamite in his teeth,
banning him would be pretty much based on the fact that some people
think the guy is sleazy. Granted! I'm one of them. But that would
just start a sleaze hunt, and pretty soon none of us would be left.
Wait till he screws up big time, like with the I Hate Unicorns
book. It'll happen sooner or later. :)
Scout
fur...@novia.net
M. Mitchell Marmel wrote:
>
> Bravo! Perhaps a campaign should be organized, with a central
> depository of VERIFIED complaints against Kevin, that can be presented
> to concoms along with a request that he not be permitted at their
> conventions...
>
> Sort of a "Furry Better Business Bureau," as it were.
>
> -MMM-
> Dealer's Room Head, AAC
> Dealer's Room Security Chief, Philcon
Banning this person/that person has always been a slippery slope. Once
one person gets blackballed, the precident is set for further purges.
This eventually makes everything suck for everyone.
One tale comes to mind courtesy of a cable-access show about Trek
fanboys titled "Dammit Jim! I'm Only A Documentary", where there was a
ST club that kept banning members because they committed minor
violations (even something as simple as bringing a TNG episode to
their video meetings). Eventually, so many were banned that only the
two founding members were left all by themselves. Sadly enough, they
actually LIKED it this way.
A better and less hostile method would be to simply state that NO ONE
can show spooge pix in public, period. As a publisher of said stuff,
I'd have no problem with simply placing a cover sheet over any
'naughty' covers I may sell so that only the logo was showing. If
someone could'nt follow such a simple rule, give him a warning. If
after said warning he STILL continues to violate convention rules
after being informed that he's in violation, then you have cause to
shut him down, at least for the duration of that weekend. If said
violator knows they're gonna get shut down every time, eventually
they'll stop coming back. Problem solved.
IMO, the only justifiable reason for having someone banned is if the
person had commited something criminal or violent at the con. Other
than that, there are more diplomatic and less tyrannical methods than
banning.
Robert Bobby Holiday
>At CF8 he finally paid me off... sort of. Half in cash, half in a stack
>of the bloody CD's. When he yammered about new projects he was doing, I
>said in no uncertain terms that I would not be a part of any of them
>unless I get paid in full for the _current_ mess and get paid _in
>advance_ for the new one. He conveniently chose to forget those words
>when he came by my table at Albany Anthrocon, nonchalantly asking Wolf
>and I (Ken wasn't there) how our schedules where and then tried to babble
>enthusiasticly to garner out interest about his new Skunks CD project. I
>was more polite than Wolf about the brush off.
Oh gee. He offered me the same deal on Furrymuck.. I debated it, not knowing
of him. Assinio, was his name, I believe.. `;)
After consulting with several artists, I decided against it. I HOPE Dennis
Carrigan (Sally_Coon) doesn't get suckered in, he was going to contribute as
well.`:P
The deal he offered me was the same CD.. some all-skunk spooge CD.. he wanted
15 images or so, would pay in cash.. then said 'or hardware', which made me
skeptical. When I finally told him I'd rather get my work published in
magazines, and work on it the way I wanted to, his reply was 'have a nice
life.' after seeing this thread, I believe I am. `;)
>That's okay... he'll just find fresh new (read, inexperienced and naive)
>artists to snag into his net.... like Ollie Canal. It's sad to say it,
>but until he's put behind bars someplace, he'll just find more victims to
>pluck from our expanding fandom, because the newcommers don't know any
>better.
Well, they will NOW, if they keep up with a.f.f (which any artist who is
interested in publishing things should read as a rule, for news on what's hot,
what's new, etc..IMO.)
>Agreed! Sadly, the only way some of the 'lucky' artists who got CD's in
>lieu of payment would be able to recoup their losses would be to sell the
>bloody things, which means more people will see the CD's and that will
>only encourage Mr. Duane into more projects.
I won't be buying anything on CD at all. This scummy attitude and problem only
hurts the fandom more, and people such as this should be delegated to it's
darkest corners..There's no such thing as paradise..
bobby
Bobby
BobbyLF@FurryMuck - Bobby@FurToonia
hol...@lynx.bc.ca
ftp://furry.isc-br.com/pub/Images/Bobby
http://pinky.wtower.com/~holiday
Doodles
Scout wrote:
> Where did Kevin Duane get CASH?
Start asking other attendees and see who he scammed it off of.
> What's next, does he turn water into wine? :)
More like shit into shinola...
Scout
Jim Doolittle wrote:
> *shudder* Friday afternoon he had it setup in the _hotel lobby_!
> Mundanes,
> little kids (yes, that includes the 10 year old [or thereabouts]
> sitting
> at the next table, five feet from him), and god knows who else all had
> a
> wonderful view of all the spooge. And yes, he was selling the CDs,
> although con policy clearly stated that sales were limited to the
> dealers
> room if you had a table, and the artists den if you were selling your
> own
> work. Someone evidently reported him to con security, but they showed
> up
> mere moments after he had packed and left for somewhere else...
In my experience, Kevin bears a secret disdain for the rest of
humanity that all but a few people catch onto eventually. I don't
believe the rewards for Kevin are so much about money or material
acquisition as they are about proving to himself once again that every
other human being on Earth is just a piano of flesh and blood, and if he
just hits the right keys he can play the sweetest melodies to his ear on
every one of us. Moreover he is convinced that the rest of us are far
too dimwitted to ever catch on that his smiles and offers of aid are
insincere means to pry the oyster open -- if there's no pearl there yet,
there might be in the future. A case in point. Kevin made sure I, as a
contributor, got my copies of Animal Magnetism on the selling floor at
Duckon. He marched around handing out copies to people he owed. Then,
just afterwards, in the middle of a sale, to demonstrate how
miraculously his wonder product was selling, he pipes up to the entire
room "All of you who are holding a copy of Animal Magnetism, raise your
hand." So I did. It occurred to me to yell "And how many of you
actually PAID MONEY for them?" and watch all the hands drop, but since
Kevin still owed money to friends of mine, I decided that would only
taking money out of their pockets. But there you go. He wasn't giving
me my payment. He was setting himself up to look like a bigshot. What
a cheap guy.
M. Mitchell Marmel
Ucalegon wrote:
> Invalid argument. He would not be banned for offending anyone;
> he would be banned for being a crook. For trafficking in stolen
> goods. The only reason he doesn't have the police after him is
> that his victims are far away and scattered and the individual
> petty larcenies are too small to be worth pursuing at a distance.
I've got an idea about that; see below.
> I think cons have every right to ban criminals from their dealer's
> rooms. Where's the slippery slope in that?
I agree.
> And from now on if I'm ever at a con where Duane's hawking
> his stuff I'll make it a point, whenever I'm near and see anyone
> checking his stuff out, of going over and asking them not to
> buy stolen goods.
Bravo! Perhaps a campaign should be organized, with a central
Micole The Ermine
In article <33EF62B7...@ibm.net>,
Scout <taf...@ibm.net> wrote:
> Ucalegon wrote:
> > Invalid argument. He would not be banned for offending anyone;
> > he would be banned for being a crook. For trafficking in stolen
> > goods. The only reason he doesn't have the police after him is
> > that his victims are far away and scattered and the individual
> > petty larcenies are too small to be worth pursuing at a distance.
> > rooms. Where's the slippery slope in that?
>
> just petty little larcenies. Everyone commits them from time to time;
> he just seems to make stock and trade of them. But the point is,
> they're petty. Accusations, they're largely rumor and opinion. Until
> he gets arrested or shows up with a lit stick of dynamite in his teeth,
> banning him would be pretty much based on the fact that some people
> think the guy is sleazy. Granted! I'm one of them. But that would
> just start a sleaze hunt, and pretty soon none of us would be left.
> Wait till he screws up big time, like with the I Hate Unicorns
> book. It'll happen sooner or later. :)
The Blacklist arguement:
Pro: Kevin has already committed several crimes under various state,
Federal and Canadian laws. Kevin has violated convention policy at CF8
and other conventions. It is unlikely he will change this practice.
Con: Like a serial rapist, his victims are unwilling individually to set
the Law against him. Individual claims are in general under the $500
Small Claims limit, but any injunction against him is likely to do no
good as long as he hides out in Canada -- at least until the Canadian
Government gets fed up with him and deports him back to the US. Publicly
blacklisting one person at a con is bound to have repercussions, whether
or not the committee was justified in its actions.
Solution: Gather all the injured parties together for a Class Action
Suit, which will still not affect him completely while he's outside the
US (although it _will_ be binding as he is a US Citizen and the minute he
touches US soil he's nailed to the wall -- this may also cause Canada to
voluntarily extridite him). The other option is to catch him 'in the act'
and slap the cuffs on him then and there... and have a list of Statements
ready to verify a history of this abuse for the police. Keep your
papertrail, it becomes your best friend when dealing with Beaurocracy.
The 'slap' can include evasion of Tax, by the way.... especially at
places like SDCC, where everyone must show proof of the Right To Sell
(resale numbers and such) within the State of California. I seriously
doubt he has any DBA or resale number, and while the individual artist
can get away with it, he's a 'publisher' and is more likely to be sat
upon harshly by the Board of Equalization.
And if not... well, I know how to throw a good old-fashioned Tar and
Feathering party, and I got this lovely book on Medieval and Renaissance
tortures. >;3
ermine
home email: Khr...@InOrbit.com
Micole The Ermine
In article <5snc9j$qqg$1...@news2.halcyon.com>,
e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote:
> In article <33EDDA...@novia.net>
> "fur...@novia.net" <fur...@novia.net> writes:
>
> >KD might have gotten a free CD burner from somewhere, but the cheapest
> >I've seen blank recordable CDs go for is around $5 each.
>
> There's a service in Seattle (and I imagine in other places) that
> will burn a CD at the rate of $995 for 1000, or about a dollar per CD.
> They charge an outrageous amount for prep (up to $500 if you have the
> contents of your CD on floppies; a little less if you bring in seven ZIP
> disks), but if you bring in your own template CD, they'll waive that and
> just do the bulk production. (I found this out while researching what it
> would take to produce the Journal Entries Website on CD).
>
> None of which puts Kevin off the hook...
Absolutely. Even if he had gotten that service, that's still $1500
roughly that he spent on the disks. He also had to have spent about that
much on printing of the labels (the outer cover was full color!) and
printing labels directly onto the CDs.
Now, figuring that each disk cost $5 to complete (cover, insert, case,
labels) and he had to buy 1000 to get that $1 manufacturing cost, he's
spent $5,000 to make Animal Magnetism I disks.
Basic Business economics suggest double the cost as your 'wholesale
price', then multiply that by 3, 4, or 5 for your 'suggested retail'
price. Figuring that, the disks should have been $10 'wholesale', and
$30, $40, or $50 as the Retail breakdown.
Based solely on the "Subscription" cost of $60, he would have needed to
sell 83 disks to 'break even' -- after that is profit. (Note, this is
_not_ figuring in the artists costs, which I am assuming he didn't bother
adding into his calculations). But I noticed that the disks were
'retailing' at $30, in which he needed to sell 167 to break even... but
he didn't even sell them at that, he was figuring that anything over his
supposed $10 wholesale price was profit.
Now, if all the artists were paid $25 per piece for their work, and the
average was 10 pieces, that's $250 per artist (theoretical, I won't give
out real numbers as he didn't have any set formula for them). Assuming
that all 35 artists of the first "Animal Magnetism" disk got paid the
same, it would still come out to $8,750. Add that to the manufacturing
costs and you got $13,750, or $13.75 _per disk_ at cost. That means his
real wholesale number should have been $27.50 and at 3x that would be
$82.50 Retail! At that number, it would take 167 to 'break even'. If he
sold them at $60, it would take 229 to break even, the nominal $30 would
take 458 to break even and what I saw him selling them at would take 688
to break even!
In other words, there is no way he can be making a profit from these
disks, even when he _is_ screwing over the artists! Poor business
management all around...
Micole The Ermine
In article <5sgn03$r...@news1.ni.net>,
> >the rest of the images (email, not even xeroxed). He tried to convince me
> >to receive the rest of my owed money in the form of barter of hardware,
> >which I flatly refused -- especially since I can get anything I want for
> >cheaper than he'd find it. Brian was not so lucky and got wowed into the
> >idea -- his requested piece of harware to cover the costs was a new Wacom
> >Tablet to replace his tiny old ArtPad. Kevin came by my apartment in
> >Sunnyvale _once_ to hand me a few buck and 'deliver' Brian's hardware --
> >a Calcomp tablet, obviously not the current model and is incompatible
> >with the Wacom drivers that Brian already had. I discovered that the
> >'hardware' bartering that Kevin did was either CD's to Hardware swapping
> >with people he knew with the stuff, or worse yet outright stolen goods he
> >garnered as part of a different scam!
>
> Stolen goods? Kevin's a fence?
No, he's the thief... he uses a bogus company letterhead to ask
manufacturers for samples so he could 'review' them. Many of them are
used to these requests and just hand out the hardware and software
without blinking.
> Also, for those artists who are still upset at Kevin... Hit him in
> small claims. You might not get your money back, but you probably
> would win, and it would do wonders at enforcing proper behavior.
Not really... Kevin's in Canada. I can _file_ in Small Claims, but if he
doesn't show and I will, I will have gained nothing... on the other hand,
if enough of them rack up an cause bench warrents to go out for his
arrest, his life might get very interesting the next time he returns to
the US.
I still think a Class Action suit against him would be better, maybe even
one in Canada and another in the US to catch him no matter where he tries
to skip. I don't _think_ he's got the money to run to Europe...
Micole The Ermine
In article <5so84b$gem$1...@velar.isc-br.com>,
hol...@lynx.bc.ca (Robert "Bobby" Holiday) wrote:
>
> In article <8710448...@dejanews.com>, jenn...@toysrus.com (Micole The
Ermine) wrote:
> >advance_ for the new one. He conveniently chose to forget those words
> >when he came by my table at Albany Anthrocon, nonchalantly asking Wolf
> >and I (Ken wasn't there) how our schedules where and then tried to babble
> >enthusiasticly to garner out interest about his new Skunks CD project. I
> >was more polite than Wolf about the brush off.
>
> Oh gee. He offered me the same deal on Furrymuck.. I debated it, not knowing
> of him. Assinio, was his name, I believe.. `;)
Yes, that's him. Both appropriate and irritating. He _knows_ what he is,
and revels in it.
> After consulting with several artists, I decided against it. I HOPE Dennis
> Carrigan (Sally_Coon) doesn't get suckered in, he was going to contribute as
> well.`:P
Ooh, I hope not! :q
> The deal he offered me was the same CD.. some all-skunk spooge CD.. he wanted
> 15 images or so, would pay in cash.. then said 'or hardware', which made me
> skeptical. When I finally told him I'd rather get my work published in
> magazines, and work on it the way I wanted to, his reply was 'have a nice
> life.' after seeing this thread, I believe I am. `;)
I actually still hold the original signed contract he wrote up for the
first Animal Magnetism CD... nowhere does it mention payment other than
hard numbers (no 'payment in kind' or 'of equal value'), so by the US
Contract Law the CDs he handed me to not constitute payment under that
signed agreement.
And I agree with you, you are already ahead of the game. :3
> >That's okay... he'll just find fresh new (read, inexperienced and naive)
> >artists to snag into his net.... like Ollie Canal. It's sad to say it,
> >but until he's put behind bars someplace, he'll just find more victims to
> >pluck from our expanding fandom, because the newcommers don't know any
> >better.
>
> Well, they will NOW, if they keep up with a.f.f (which any artist who is
> interested in publishing things should read as a rule, for news on what's hot,
> what's new, etc..IMO.)
Alas, many of the fresh new talents _don't_ read a.f.f. Maybe some do and
are too nervous to delurk, but the few new ones I meet on furryMUCK every
so often are completely unaware this newsgroup exists or is worth sifting
through. So the 'word of mouth' method is still needed.
> >Agreed! Sadly, the only way some of the 'lucky' artists who got CD's in
> >lieu of payment would be able to recoup their losses would be to sell the
> >bloody things, which means more people will see the CD's and that will
> >only encourage Mr. Duane into more projects.
>
> I won't be buying anything on CD at all. This scummy attitude and problem only
> hurts the fandom more, and people such as this should be delegated to it's
> darkest corners..There's no such thing as paradise..
Now, I don't go _that_ far, myself... but I look carefully at what the CD
is and how it's produced. I'd look at anything 'garage style' (with no
labels other than a slip cover in the front, no side-labels, an adhesive
label on the disc, and poorly shrink-wrapped) with a dubious eye. CDs are
cheap to burn and the jewel cases are equally cheap -- it's the cost of
printing the booklet, labels and any label on the CD itself that is
expensive in manufacturing these days. The fact is that Kevin likely owes
the manufacturer of these discs money as well... probably spent what
money he didn't squander on hotel rooms and frivalities on the
manufacturer (if he had a brain at all) in order for them to be willing
to print up AM2... or he screwed over one manufacturer and is now using
another, and will likely use a 3rd on the Skunk CD.
Caveat Emptor!
Ucalegon
>Banning this person/that person has always been a slippery slope. Once
>one person gets blackballed, the precident is set for further purges.
>This eventually makes everything suck for everyone.
Has morality gone so far down the tubes that you and Doodles
can't tell the difference between being a schmuck and being a
criminal? We've seen many stories of his unacceptable behavior
at cons, but that's not what I'm objecting to. I'm objecting to his
being a crook. A thief. A criminal. A man who has ripped off other
furries in this one instance alone to the tune of hundreds of dollars
(probably actually in the low thousands). I repeat: where is the
slippery slope in that? I'm not even saying he should be banned,
just that he should not be allowed to sell stolen goods in con
sales areas.
But if we do consider how to handle his behavior at cons,
at the very least he should be told that on the basis of reports of
unacceptable breach of con rules at at least three conventions,
one strike and he's out. But no doubt that's too much trouble for
Doodles. More important to toss people out for politely pointing
out to prospective buyers something they may not know and may
be interested in knowing: that they're being offered stolen goods.
Incidentally, Doodles, no need to pucker up; even in the days
when ConFURence was the only furry game in town, I wasn't
furry (or feathered) enough to fly across the country to attend.
Oh, and Kevin: If this were the first time you pulled something like
this you might have made me wonder, but as it is only fear keeps
me from saying... Trafficking in stolen goods! Trafficking in stolen
goods! Trafficking in stolen goods! I'm also considering a new
.sig.
Acag, Treesong
Kevin Duane is a trafficker in stolen goods.
Acag, Treesong (ucal...@aol.com)
Micole The Ermine
In article <v6n2mqy...@tick.dev.ampersand.com>,
Mark Atwood <z...@ampersand.com> wrote:
>
>
> Is this the "Kevin Duane" and "Animal Magnatism" CD that was running a
> computer slideshow of XXX spooge scans at the most recent ConFurence
> Artist's Alley?
>
> Remember thinking that that was unwise and wrong in more ways than
> one, spooge being broadcast where mundain and underage eyes are sure
> to see it, and selling a commercial product in a space reserved for
> artists with no $....
The self-same one... he should've been tossed out last year for that,
too... which is why the rules for Dealers Den, Artists Alley and
Publishers Row are all being spelled out _now_, courtesy of Doodles....
Of course, personally I'd like to see him on CF9's blacklist, myself. I
don't believe for an instant that he will follow the rules regarding
adult material in public view, and I bet that if he simply gets removed
from the Alley that he'd set up shop down in the Lobby in complete view
of non-convention goers and their children.
I'd love someone from Philcon to verify this, but it appeared to me that
he wasn't a paid Dealer, yet he was sitting in front of Ed Zolna's Table
(and next to Jim Groat's table) on the floor with his laptop hawking the
CDs! I got mad just listening to his spiel, considering that he claims
the disks are worth $30 and then I watch him wheedle it down to $20
because this one guy only had one bill left in his pocket... then he
_laughs_ at the people looking at the laptop show and crows that he's
_still_ making a profit! It took a lot for me not to rip that smile off
his face -- profits come _after_ all the costs for manufacturing are paid
off, and that means the artists! Anyone with High School Business class
knows _that_... Grrrrrrrrrrr.....
Oh yea, later at the same con, same day, he's whimpering that he just
might sell enough CDs to cover the hotel and membership costs!
Do you believe this guy?
Darrel Exline
Scout wrote:
> 90 days later, if you don't have full payment in your paw, he's in
> breach. By my calculations, Fandom could, about now, legally sit down
> with Kevin as the roast turkey this Christmas.
> Anyone want the drumstick? :)
EEEeeewww! Throw it away. :p
--
Darrel L. Exline, darrelx at home.com, http://www.invzn.com/darrelx/
a.k.a. Jym_Chago, "Your friendly neighborhood Polar Bear"
FUAcs2ar A C++ D+ H- M+ P R T+ W Z+~++ Sm#
RLCT/S* a29 cnwd++++$ d++ e+/** f+ h-/** iwf+++$ p+ sm#
- Unsolicited Junk-Mailers will be fined $50 per offense for Criminal
Trespass.
- Remove the ".NoSpamPlease" part of my EMail address if replying
personally.
Darrel Exline
Pelzig wrote:
>
> Greetings.
>
> Well, I suppose I can be thankful that all I ever got was a Email
> message
> about the CD project and one letter in the mail. Never bothered at a
> con
> or anything like that...looks like I lucked out. :)
You probably just weren't recognized.
Micole The Ermine
In article <NEWTNews.8710844...@emerald.cin.net>,
amet...@cin.net wrote:
> In Article<8710448...@dejanews.com>, <jenn...@toysrus.com> writes:
> > That's okay... he'll just find fresh new (read, inexperienced and naive)
> > artists to snag into his net.... like Ollie Canal. It's sad to say it,
> > but until he's put behind bars someplace, he'll just find more victims to
> > pluck from our expanding fandom, because the newcommers don't know any
> > better.
>
> post here some of us newer artists will be able to avoid that pitfall in the
> first place, and will never give him art in the first place =:)
>
> SEE YA LATER,
> Brian McPherson =:)
Ah, it's posts like this that maintain my faith in the Internet as a
Communications Medium. :3
Spread the word!
pa...@juno.com
Micole The Ermine wrote:
>
> > I won't be buying anything on CD at all. This scummy attitude and problem only
> > hurts the fandom more, and people such as this should be delegated to it's
> > darkest corners..There's no such thing as paradise..
>
> Now, I don't go _that_ far, myself... but I look carefully at what the CD
> is and how it's produced. I'd look at anything 'garage style' (with no
> labels other than a slip cover in the front, no side-labels, an adhesive
> label on the disc, and poorly shrink-wrapped) with a dubious eye. CDs are
> cheap to burn and the jewel cases are equally cheap -- it's the cost of
> printing the booklet, labels and any label on the CD itself that is
> expensive in manufacturing these days. The fact is that Kevin likely owes
> the manufacturer of these discs money as well... probably spent what
> money he didn't squander on hotel rooms and frivalities on the
> manufacturer (if he had a brain at all) in order for them to be willing
> to print up AM2... or he screwed over one manufacturer and is now using
> another, and will likely use a 3rd on the Skunk CD.
Interesting (and probable) scenario.
Look on the center of the CD for such info.
The first one (2nd print, I believe) is marked:
"MUSIC MANUFACTURING SERVICES"
"DISCUE AMERIC"
"0VBJ2<0067>ANIMALMAGNETISM"
So, what does the new one say?
Kay Shapero
On <Aug 12 10:21>, jenn...@toysrus.com (Micole The Ermine) wrote;
MT>Of course, personally I'd like to see him on CF9's blacklist,
MT>myself. I don't believe for an instant that he will follow the rules
MT>regarding adult material in public view, and I bet that if he simply
MT>gets removed from the Alley that he'd set up shop down in the Lobby in
MT>complete view of non-convention goers and their children.
He's not going to be allowed in the Alley - he's in Publisher's Row
this time. And if he does the latter, he gets bounced from the convention
the minute one of the staff notices. After which he's no longer *our*
problem...
M. Mitchell Marmel
fur...@novia.net wrote:
> Banning this person/that person has always been a slippery slope. Once
> one person gets blackballed, the precident is set for further purges.
And once one person performs unacceptable acts and gets away with it,
the precedent is set that such behavior is tolerable and worse acts
occur.
This eventually makes everything suck for everyone, too.
> One tale comes to mind courtesy of a cable-access show about Trek
> fanboys titled "Dammit Jim! I'm Only A Documentary", where there was a
> ST club that kept banning members because they committed minor
> violations (even something as simple as bringing a TNG episode to
> their video meetings). Eventually, so many were banned that only the
> two founding members were left all by themselves. Sadly enough, they
> actually LIKED it this way.
(shrug) Then that's how it sorted out. Presumably, the banned members
went and formed their own club, and were also happy...
> A better and less hostile method would be to simply state that NO ONE
> can show spooge pix in public, period. As a publisher of said stuff,
> I'd have no problem with simply placing a cover sheet over any
> 'naughty' covers I may sell so that only the logo was showing. If
> someone could'nt follow such a simple rule, give him a warning. If
> after said warning he STILL continues to violate convention rules
> after being informed that he's in violation, then you have cause to
> shut him down, at least for the duration of that weekend. If said
> violator knows they're gonna get shut down every time, eventually
> they'll stop coming back. Problem solved.
Well, THAT problem solved, at any rate. However, what if the
perpetrator is guilty of a number of (non-directly-con-related) offenses
such that s/he makes con attendees nervous simply because of hir
presence?
> IMO, the only justifiable reason for having someone banned is if the
> person had commited something criminal or violent at the con. Other
> than that, there are more diplomatic and less tyrannical methods than
> banning.
"Diplomacy is the fine art of saying 'Nice Doggy' until you can find a
stick." -Will Rogers
"The stick has been found and can be employed." -Me
-MMM-
M. Mitchell Marmel
Micole The Ermine wrote:
> I'd love someone from Philcon to verify this,
Right here.
> but it appeared to me that he wasn't a paid Dealer,
Nope.
> yet he was sitting in front of Ed Zolna's Table
> (and next to Jim Groat's table) on the floor with his laptop hawking the
> CDs!
This shan't be happening at this year's Philcon.
> Oh yea, later at the same con, same day, he's whimpering that he just
> might sell enough CDs to cover the hotel and membership costs!
>
> Do you believe this guy?
Oddly enough, the subject came up at the Philcon ConCom meeting last
Sunday. Seems that someone named Kevin Duane bounced a check for
membership at Philcon a few years back. Of course, it could simply be a
coincidence in names...
-MMM-
Philcon Dealer's Room Security Head
AAC Dealer's Room Head
Scout
Micole The Ermine wrote:
> Oh yea, later at the same con, same day, he's whimpering that he just
> might sell enough CDs to cover the hotel and membership costs!
>
> Do you believe this guy?
Well, if that's true, in my discussion with him on the Muck last
night, towards the end I got him to admit that out of the money he
makes, it goes to the artists FIRST until he gets it paid off. THEN he
gets it. So, wiping the slate clean, if he does that from now on, he's
upstanding. But in discussions with Taral, he's always felt that this
is why the artists don't get paid... basically Kevin's been using the
CDs to finance this trips to conventions. It's like going to the bakery
for cookies and then well, you had to eat SOMETHING, so there's nothing
left for the people who sent you. Another reason barter is such an
important feature of repayment; generally it costs Kevin nothing. He
gets the room and board, and you get to settle for whatever he can dig
up. Whenever. But, like I say, last night, he agreed the artists come
first, so until the next con, he gets the benefit of the doubt. We've
all got it in writing, in your defence, and, importantly for his current
crisis, in his.
Abakan
> to skip. I don't _think_ he's got the money to run to Europe...
>
Reto"I扉e bought AM1, but will not buy #2"Roth
Scout
pa...@juno.com wrote:
> Interesting (and probable) scenario.
>
> Look on the center of the CD for such info.
>
> The first one (2nd print, I believe) is marked:
>
> "MUSIC MANUFACTURING SERVICES"
>
> "DISCUE AMERIC"
>
> "0VBJ2<0067>ANIMALMAGNETISM"
>
> So, what does the new one say?
Same manufacturer.
--Scout
Scout
> Absolutely. Even if he had gotten that service, that's still $1500
> roughly that he spent on the disks. He also had to have spent about
> that
> much on printing of the labels (the outer cover was full color!) and
> printing labels directly onto the CDs.
Well, Kevin phoned me up this evening and spoke to me about this.
Actually he yelled at me, threatened me with legal action (A: libel for
suggesting some of the hardware that right jolly old elf hands out might
not be his to give, and B: copyright infringement for posting his sound
bite last night -- if the guy could afford a lawyer I might be mildly
concerned) and called me a "fucking asshole", at which point I hung up,
but not before he explained to me the art cost him $10,775, and the
entire cost, including art, CD production (twice, remember the Mac-only
fiasco?) ran him just under $15000. What the truth is or isn't I can't
say, and make of it what you will... I merely relate what he told me
between shouts.
At one point, he offered to show both me and Taral together his
records -- since neither of us believes he keeps any, and I'm pretty
sure Revenue Canada has never heard of Animal Magnetism either... and
potentially he'll be showing us these at Taral's place on Thursday.
We'll see. Frankly I have my doubts.
Also: the USR modem in my 486? He claims to have a receipt for it,
billed to "zero dollars and zero cents". Given that I don't think he
could find his SHOES in the morning at his place if he didn't wear them
around the house, I really have a problem believing he's kept track of a
little receipt for something he parted with 18 months ago. But, Kevin,
here's your chance to prove me wrong. You have a scanner. Put your
receipt where your mouth is: scan it, post it here, and if it has a
serial number matching mine, or even a make and model number, I'll even
take that (assuming it predatesFebruary, 1996) -- and I'll publically
apologize, right here. Until then, the origin of the modem remains in
question, at least to me.
Charles Gray
jenn...@toysrus.com (Micole The Ermine) wrote:
>
>I actually still hold the original signed contract he wrote up for the
>first Animal Magnetism CD... nowhere does it mention payment other than
>hard numbers (no 'payment in kind' or 'of equal value'), so by the US
>Contract Law the CDs he handed me to not constitute payment under that
>signed agreement.
If you chaps are feeling really nasty, contact the IRS. As I
understand it, Canadian citizen or not, he owes uncle Sam tax money,
at least sales tax. Given that the CD cost upwards of 20+, that might
be enough to interest the IRS depending on how many were sold. --
possielbe down point- They might also look at the artists on the disk.
Kevin Duane
Just to let you know I WILL have my material on display -
which, through the miracle of electronic Post-It Notes, should be no
more offensive than any book displayed in the Dealer's Room.
As a further diplomatic manner, a screen will be installed to
further curtail the viewing angle of the material to any but the truly
curious and legally appropriate.
As for what gets displayed in the privacy of my hotel room
duing the Furrvert Sherbert Ice Cream Anti-Social? Well, you'll only
have to come and see for yourselves. 18 and over, please, and if
you're as easily offended as some, bring a long spoon.
"Nothing worse than being blackballed from a blacklist."
-- P. Pine - POGO
Amara
Doodles wrote:
>
>
> As for schmuck...
>
> You can't live in L.A. for 30+ years without knowing a heaping helping
> of Yiddish. I would imagine Kevin being _pleased_ with being called a
> large penis...
Ooer! I didn't know Schmuck meant _that_.. I thought it was more of a
stupid person.. hee.. :)
You learn something new everyday :)
Amy :)
--
"We count 30 rebel ships, Lord Vader, but our men are so pissed they
couldn't hit a bull's butt with a bass fiddle."
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
Amy 'Amara' Pronovost: Anthro/Star Wars artist, Star Wars Cool Girl,
Official rassm Cool person (despite what Rich says), Biologist.
am...@arclight.net <*> http://rat.org/amara <*>
Doodles
Amara wrote:
> >
> > As for schmuck...
> >
> > You can't live in L.A. for 30+ years without knowing a heaping
> > helping of Yiddish. I would imagine Kevin being _pleased_ with
> > being called a large penis...
>
> Ooer! I didn't know Schmuck meant _that_.. I thought it was more of a
> stupid person.. hee.. :)
>
> You learn something new everyday :)
As Buddy Hackett once said, "There's schmuck, schmuckola and
schmuckolovitch, which means you can make it into a truck..."
M. Mitchell Marmel
Micole The Ermine wrote:
> And if not... well, I know how to throw a good old-fashioned Tar and
> Feathering party, and I got this lovely book on Medieval and Renaissance
> tortures. >;3
Say! Does your book include plans for stocks? If so, and if we can get
a big pile of rotten produce, I think we may have the basis for a DANDY
charity fund-raising event...
-MMM-
Micole The Ermine
In article <33F14335...@ibm.net>,
Scout <taf...@ibm.net> wrote:
>
> > Absolutely. Even if he had gotten that service, that's still $1500
> > roughly that he spent on the disks. He also had to have spent about
> > that
> > much on printing of the labels (the outer cover was full color!) and
> > printing labels directly onto the CDs.
>
> Well, Kevin phoned me up this evening and spoke to me about this.
> Actually he yelled at me, threatened me with legal action (A: libel for
> suggesting some of the hardware that right jolly old elf hands out might
> not be his to give, and B: copyright infringement for posting his sound
> bite last night -- if the guy could afford a lawyer I might be mildly
> concerned) and called me a "fucking asshole", at which point I hung up,
> but not before he explained to me the art cost him $10,775, and the
> entire cost, including art, CD production (twice, remember the Mac-only
> fiasco?) ran him just under $15000. What the truth is or isn't I can't
> say, and make of it what you will... I merely relate what he told me
> between shouts.
You know what makes this all the sillier? He's publicly yelling at me for
fraudulent numbers, but if your above statements are true to what he told
you, he spent _more_ for those disks than my 'rough estimate'! My post
figured $13,750... and you say that he claims he spent $15,000!
Shall I publicly calculate the 'break-even' for that number, Kevin?
Remember, the _general_ idea is spending nor more than 50% of your stock
to make that number... and most real manufacturers figure selling 30% of
their stock to reach 'break even'.
Maybe next Confurence I should propose "Business Economics in a Furry
Environment" rather than my traditional "Anatomy 101 Workshop"? :3
ermine
Ucalegon
In article <33D5CE...@primenet.com>, Doodles <doo...@primenet.com> writes:
>The trouble with this definition is that accusations and warrants are
>not _proof_ of a person has committed a crime in any legal sense.
>Micole has the right idea. If you want to ban him from the con, provide
>us with legal proof of him being a crook and something can be arranged.
Going to a con is a privilege, not a right, and I think you've set the
requirements for proof a little high; collecting a bunch of affidavits
from unpaid artists should suffice. But given that personal
confrontation seems to be a valuable method for getting money
from KD, maybe it would be counterproductive, and in any case
I won't be going and wouldn't have time to do anything along those
lines if I did.
I've been annoyed from several directions this week and caught
on fire; I apologize for flaming you.
Acag, Treesong (ucal...@aol.com)
Doodles
Ucalegon wrote:
>
> Going to a con is a privilege, not a right, and I think you've set the
> requirements for proof a little high; collecting a bunch of affidavits
> from unpaid artists should suffice.
That's a possibility, but then the con would be asked to take sides in
potential legal battles. There's rarely enough money in the coffers to
afford mailing out the In-fur-nations, much less get caught up in civil
actions. This isn't be any different than any other con, really. Few
cons take sides in such battles, and those that do tend to get slammed
for it.
Now, while attending the con is a priveledge, it's one whose basic
requirement is that you pony up the membership fee and try not to bomb
the hotel. There's been no limitations beyond those, though now we're
going to be putting in some guidelines for behaviour. You have no idea
how much effort it took for Sy and Rod to admit the needs for this, and
you probably never will. The only reason I know that we might not let
someone come back is because of checks bounced at the con, and even they
can come back if they make good on the debt.
> But given that personal confrontation seems to be a valuable method
> for getting money from KD, maybe it would be counterproductive, and
> in any case I won't be going and wouldn't have time to do anything
> along those lines if I did.
Indeed. Mr. Duane will be very easy to find, and any artist to whom he
owes money will be happily directed to his table. Business is business.
> I've been annoyed from several directions this week and caught
> on fire; I apologize for flaming you.
Think nothing of it. We've all been under a great deal of stress. I've
got a lot of friends who were burned by this mess, and Mr. Duane has
rapidly taken the #1 spot on my personal list of six shallow graves. But
for me to be professional, for me to get the job done, I cannot let my
personal feelings about him influence the operations of the con. The
rules that have been developed are sufficient.
We've had a lot of calls for banning folks of one type or another from
CF over the years, and the reflex tends to be rather strong. As I said,
I've a rather open-ended interpretation of the Bill of Rights, and I'm a
little loathe to start telling large masses of people they can't do this
or they can't do that. [Unless it's listening to Kenny G recordings,
because he _is_ the Antichrist.] =};-3
Unca Spooge, who puts on some Dave Brubeck to ease his fervered brow...
Doodles
Hmmm...
I'm pretty good with tools. If I can build a stage that will support
the Sugar Plum Fatties, I think a nice set of stocks would be simple
enough. If I had done better in metal shop, I'd even make you a rack.
=};-3
Scout
Charles Gray wrote:
> If you chaps are feeling really nasty, contact the IRS. As I
> understand it, Canadian citizen or not, he owes uncle Sam tax money,
> at least sales tax.
Kevin's not a Canadian citizen. As far as I know, he's not even a
landed immigrant. He's married to a Canadian, which gives him
quasi-residential status here. Kevin is from Brooklyn, NY. As a
result, he's a US citizen and so required to file returns to both Ottawa
and Washington, if I'm not mistaken.
> Given that the CD cost upwards of 20+, that might
> be enough to interest the IRS depending on how many were sold. --
> possielbe down point- They might also look at the artists on the disk.
The IRS is mainly concerned with income tax, I think. They'd
probably tell you that if he stiffed, say, Oklahoma for sales tax, it's
up to Oklahoma to do something about it, not them.
BUT -- given that he IS a US citizen... it might interest the IRS if
he didn't declare that as income. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a
base that obvious well covered, though.
Andrija Popovic
You know, I have abook entitled "The History of Torture Throughout the
Ages" lying about here somewhere... The description of the 'death of a
thousand cuts' was quite...interesting.
--
Andrija Popovic (vu...@concentric.net)
http://www.concentric.net/~vuk6/index.html
"Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do not abandon them."
--Phantom F. Harlock _Arcadia of My Youth_
Mel. White
Micole The Ermine (jenn...@toysrus.com) wrote:
: Maybe next Confurence I should propose "Business Economics in a Furry
: Environment" rather than my traditional "Anatomy 101 Workshop"? :3
Not a bad idea, actually. Glen Wooten, Chuck Melville, and a number of
other folks (me included!!) have a lot of experience with this. It's not
a simple environment and there are some interesting marketing tactics
to consider.
If you propose it, I'll come help teach it!
--
m...@netcom.com
========================================================================
Fed up with Spammers? *** Here's some useful resources:
http://www.fraud.org/ http://www.abuse.net/ http://www.cauce.org
http://www.fmp.com/spam_patrol/ http://www.clark.net/pub/rolf/mmf/
Report Make Money Fast schemes to net-...@nocs.insp.irs.gov
Timothy D Fay
In article <33D62B...@primenet.com>,
Doodles <doo...@primenet.com> wrote:
> M. Mitchell Marmel wrote:
> >
> > Micole The Ermine wrote:
> >
> > > And if not... well, I know how to throw a good old-fashioned Tar and
> > > Feathering party, and I got this lovely book on Medieval and
> > > Renaissance tortures. >;3
> >
> > Say! Does your book include plans for stocks? If so, and if we can
> > get a big pile of rotten produce, I think we may have the basis for a
> > DANDY charity fund-raising event...
>
> I'm pretty good with tools. If I can build a stage that will support
> the Sugar Plum Fatties, I think a nice set of stocks would be simple
> enough. If I had done better in metal shop, I'd even make you a rack.
> =};-3
I'm glad CF has such a qualified individual in charge of its Dealers'
Den. But perhaps this particular Two-Minute Hate has gone on just a
bit too long.
Even as a joke, talk of stocks and tar and feathering (which was often
lethal, BTW; tar would block up the victim's pores, causing death) is
unfunny at best. The allegations against Mr. Duane's are serious, but
not unique in so-called Furry Fandom, sad to say. Keep in mind that
cabarets, pet auctions and book-burning -- excuse me, I mean "book
recycling" -- have their detractors as well. Should we have Doodles
build an extra set of stocks, just in case?
--
Reply to: _fay...@maroon.tc.umn.edu_
-- http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m279/fayxx001 --
"If civilization owes a debt of gratitude to the self-sacrificing
sportsmen who have cleared the Adirondack region of Catamounts and
savage trout, what shall be said of the army which has so nobly
relieved them of the terror of the deer?"
From "A-Hunting of the Deer" by Charles Dudley Warner
--
++++ Stop the execution of Mumia Abu-Jamal! ++++
++++ if you agree copy these 3 sentences in your own sig ++++
++++ more info: http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/spg-l/sigaction.htm ++++
Chad Pet
>Say! Does your book include plans for stocks? If so, and if we can get
>a big pile of rotten produce, I think we may have the basis for a DANDY
>charity fund-raising event...
Or, if lacking produce, we could charge $1 for five minutes at tickling their
feet (using leg stocks).
Dwight Dutton
"Ther ewill be stricter enforcement of the rules that *were* in place?"
Are you friends with Orson Welles or something? ;->
Jason Murdock
On 11 Aug 1997, Doodles wrote:
> Scout wrote:
>
> > Where did Kevin Duane get CASH?
>
> Start asking other attendees and see who he scammed it off of.
>
> > What's next, does he turn water into wine? :)
>
> More like shit into shinola...
>
Ok, I got into this late. Can someone tell me what is going on? What's
wrong with the Animal Magnetism CD? (looks at the ad he grabs for it at
AAC).
thanks
jason murdock
-- creature --
-- mur...@widomaker.com for non-personal email
-- jas...@gkar.phys.unm.edu for personal email
Dave Wright
What penance should there be for those of us who have bought the CDs without
knowing the treatment of the artists?
--
:Dave Wright * Gentaur on FurryMUCK
DUELING MODEMS * http://www.dm.net * news://news.dm.net:120
Head Sysop, BESTIARIA Furry Forum & AH!LOGY Science and Research Forum
http://beastie.dm.net * news://news.dm.net:120/dm.ahlogy.*
--
Man is more interesting than men. God made him and not them in his image.
Each one is more precious than all. --Andre Gide
Lisa Jennings
Dave Wright wrote:
>
> What penance should there be for those of us who have bought the CDs without
> knowing the treatment of the artists?
Choose a few of your favorite artists from the CD and order commissions
from them! :3
ermine
home email: khr...@InOrbit.com