Pioneer Smearing/shadow casting examples - Here it is
noneoyobiz
New photos are up showing the problem I and others are having with out
Pioneer laserdisc players and the serious problem of smearing towards the
right of the screen. Scroll down about half way for the new shots from STAR
WARS.
rnra...@neo.rr.com
which is basically the same thing, but to a much lesser extent. I get a
slight ghost to the right on all my CLV discs, but it doesn't extend nearly
that far. Maybe an inch to the very end of the trail and is only really
noticable when studying it. My CAV Star Wars box looks perfect, though.
Are there ANY players that really don't have this problem AT ALL on CLV
discs? Every player I've seen and all my tapes that have been recorded from
LD (from various players) show this. You do have to look kinda close for
what I'm talking about, so maybe some people are missing it. However, what
your new shots are showing is far worse than I've ever seen.
BILLSCHWENKE
the actual image quality.
I don't have a problem with mine. Is this only true of bright on black, or
other types of contrast situations? Did you have problems on a direct view set?
Under 40"?
Bill
>casting examples - Here it is
>From: "noneoyobiz" nt...@hotmasses.com
>Date: 3/1/2002 1:38 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <hLQf8.47$9u.1...@news.ntplx.net>
noneoyobiz
> discs? Every player I've seen and all my tapes that have been recorded
from
> LD (from various players) show this. You do have to look kinda close for
> what I'm talking about, so maybe some people are missing it. However, what
> your new shots are showing is far worse than I've ever seen.
It's made worse by the overexposure of the photos, but it's pretty bad. From
the object, all the way over to the right. I'd kill for a player that didn't
do this, but had a noise free picture.
My dad's old Panasonic LX-H670 does not smear at all. Not one bit. But
aliasing is a bitch and the picture is just too soft compared to the 704's.
:-(
noneoyobiz
> though it's hard to relate the actual image quality.
Overexposing the film made it look worse than it is. Take away the bleed
over, other than streeking tot he right and you have a clear idea of how it
is. Since it streaks ALL THE WAY across the screen, it's a problem. if it
was just a bit over,then I could probably ignore it. But this is beyond
unwatchable.
> I don't have a problem with mine. Is this only true of bright
> on black, or other types of contrast situations?
Whenever colors are very different on contrast. Dark on bright. Bright on
dark. Gold on black. Gold or yellow on blue. White on gray or blue, etc.
C3PO streaks like a bastard all throughout STAR WARS. B&W films are a bitch.
> Did you have problems on a direct view set?
> Under 40"?
Yes to both. 20 inch. 27 inch. 36 inch. 65 inch. :-( On the smaller sets,
the streaking is mores olid, onb the larger, just so in your face that it's
horrible.
Mattias Karlsson
> Wow, that is bad. I thought you were describing what I see on my V8000,
> which is basically the same thing, but to a much lesser extent. I get a
> slight ghost to the right on all my CLV discs, but it doesn't extend nearly
> that far. Maybe an inch to the very end of the trail and is only really
> noticable when studying it. My CAV Star Wars box looks perfect, though.
>
> Are there ANY players that really don't have this problem AT ALL on CLV
> discs? Every player I've seen and all my tapes that have been recorded from
> LD (from various players) show this. You do have to look kinda close for
> what I'm talking about, so maybe some people are missing it. However, what
> your new shots are showing is far worse than I've ever seen.
I have NEVER seen that kind of problem with my HLD-X9. I don't think I
have seen it on the much cheaper CLD-925. It must be a problem with
the players not
something all LD players have. I'm a very picky viewer.
-Mattias-
douglas pratt
buildings with too much steel in the structure or when other large objects
are around-- mountains will cause the same thing.
try some of these ideas:
put a 75ohm attenuator between the co-ax output of your player and the
corresponding input to your tv. radio shack $4.99 special. signal gain may
be too high.
turn contrast UP, brightness DOWN-- if you have video essentials, go through
their calibration routine.
use s-vhs video cable if your set and player are compatible
don't be shy with cabling-- it can make a major difference. choose a
well-shielded one and see what happens.
check plug polarization and a/c noise. avoid all extension cords, wall plug
multipliers, and be sure the wide and thin slats on your player's power cord
haven't been reversed.
video noise may coming in from anywhere-- suspect the tv first, also watch
how signal cables run vs. power-- if they have to cross, intersect them;
never run side by side. other components and appliances that use a/c can
also produce noise at any point. the more current, the more noise-- air
conditioners, fridges, toasters, hair dryers, heaters, etc. are the worst
culprits. a neighbor's electrical trash could also become yours, so consider
who and what is situated near and around your house or apartment. radio and
television transmitters, cell phone towers, power plants, microwave
stations, high-tension electric lines, military installations, and any other
source of intense localized emf producing equipment could cause the problem
you're experiencing.
the best way to correct this problem is to determine what is causing it--
once this is done, you can usually protect your equipment and be rid of the
nuisance.
try the easier solutions first. move your player and display
from one room to the next-- plug to plug and wall to wall. swap out your
video cable; even try turning it around. the aberration you've been
observing is an analogue distortion so don't go looking for it in the
digital domain. if you can, play the digital and cx soundtracks from the
same disc. do you hear the same kind of crap from either or both you've been
watching on the screen. pop in a set of headphones-- if there's no
difference, whatever is causing the video barf isn't affecting the sound; if
you do hear something wrong, chances are the same problem is producing both
effects.
trying a different tv with a different player and viceyversie goes a long
way in figuring out which, if either, is ruining your enjoyment. unless
you're getting a rainbow-speckled snow in the image, it's very unlikely that
your problem is disc related.
good luck with it---:)*
"noneoyobiz" <nt...@hotmasses.com> wrote in message
news:hLQf8.47$9u.1...@news.ntplx.net...
Kevin Hawerchuk
Thanks for posting those captures! I feel much better about my Elite
97. I tested those scenes from Star Wars and found no smearing on the
yellow letters, and the moon didn't cast any type of smear. The
planets surface has a slight glow, but that's normal for a
super-bright object to glow slightly into a black background. No
actual smear that extends any length into the picture.
I guess my Elite 97 doesn't smear after all!
Kevin.
noneoyobiz
> 97. I tested those scenes from Star Wars and found no smearing on the
> yellow letters, and the moon didn't cast any type of smear. The
> planets surface has a slight glow, but that's normal for a
> super-bright object to glow slightly into a black background. No
> actual smear that extends any length into the picture.
> I guess my Elite 97 doesn't smear after all!
> Kevin.
And I hate you for it! :-)
Joshua Zyber
news:e1ad4487.02030...@posting.google.com...
> > New photos are up showing the problem I and others are having with out
> > Pioneer laserdisc players and the serious problem of smearing towards
the
> > right of the screen. Scroll down about half way for the new shots from
STAR
> > WARS.
>
> Thanks for posting those captures! I feel much better about my Elite
> 97. I tested those scenes from Star Wars and found no smearing on the
> yellow letters, and the moon didn't cast any type of smear. The
> planets surface has a slight glow, but that's normal for a
> super-bright object to glow slightly into a black background. No
> actual smear that extends any length into the picture.
> I guess my Elite 97 doesn't smear after all!
One issue that hasn't been addressed yet: Which edition of Star Wars is it?
CLV, CAV, THX, non-THX?
- Josh
noneoyobiz
> of Star Wars is it? CLV, CAV, THX, non-THX?
CLV THX. The older non-THX editions have it too (rented them to find out).
Any laserdisc I try shows it.
Kevin Hawerchuk
The Star Wars disc I used was the THX CLV version.
Nice sharp picture with no smearing.
Kevin
Joshua Zyber
Do you see this problem on CAV discs also, or just CLV?
Is it constant throughout the program, or just during specific high-contrast
scenes?
- Josh
Eyeswideshut77
>Pioneer laserdisc players and the serious problem of smearing towards the
>right of the screen. Scroll down about half way for the new shots from STAR
>WARS.
To classify this as a problem that affects all LD players with a similar base
structure of a CLD-D704 is ridiculous.
I played my THX CLV STAR WARS original theatrical version on my LD-S9 and
experienced nothing but a great transfer from the laserdisc format. In fact, my
LD-S9 produces an incredible image from all my laserdisc's. It's hooked via the
S-video to my HD Hitachi 36 inch monitor.
M conclusion about your problem is that you just own a defective player. Too
bad you didn't take care of this while it was still under waranty.
Peace
Italo
info!
Anyway, if it adds info to the problem, my DVL-919 doesn't show up the
defect. Douglas made some very good points regarding hookups etc... so it
sounds like that's the way to go first.
Italo
"Eyeswideshut77" <eyeswid...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020302175428...@mb-mr.aol.com...
Kurtis Bahr
brightness is too hogh and maybe the video level out of the LD player is to high
and anomalities in the blacker than black are being viewed, video below the 0.3V
level. I will play with quite a few of these things. Still the black area
should not do this.
Kurtis
Todd Spangler
> I'm actually going to look at this point in detail. My feeling is that the
> brightness is too hogh and maybe the video level out of the LD player is to high
> and anomalities in the blacker than black are being viewed, video below the 0.3V
> level. I will play with quite a few of these things. Still the black area
> should not do this.
>
> Kurtis
>
Yes, my opinion is that at least part of the problem is that this is
some type of player/TV interaction. My experience is that different
players do have different video output levels. Perhaps the disc
itself should also be considered, as different discs may have
different levels of color saturation and such?
In any event, the ideal situation would be for each video source to
have its own set of picture settings available in the monitor or
display device, but this is not always possible. My own TV has only
one setting, and I find that I need to fiddle with the contrast,
brightness, and color settings depending on which player I'm using and
what I'm watching. To simply "set it and forget it" using Video
Essentials or another test disc is misguided and naive IMO.
Todd
Joshua Zyber
news:<3C818EC7...@erols.com>...
> > I'm actually going to look at this point in detail. My feeling is that
the
> > brightness is too hogh and maybe the video level out of the LD player is
to high
> > and anomalities in the blacker than black are being viewed, video below
the 0.3V
> > level. I will play with quite a few of these things. Still the black
area
> > should not do this.
You may be onto something, however the smearing does not occur only over
black backgrounds.
Todd Spangler <asi...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:a3a6e089.02030...@posting.google.com...
> Yes, my opinion is that at least part of the problem is that this is
> some type of player/TV interaction.
The problem is re-producable on multiple TVs using the same player. This
would seem to indicate the the defect is present in the machine and is not
affected by the TV interaction.
> My experience is that different
> players do have different video output levels. Perhaps the disc
> itself should also be considered, as different discs may have
> different levels of color saturation and such?
The type of video signal may trigger the player to produce the artifact, but
I do not believe the artifact to be inherent to the disc. A disc which
produces a smear on one player can be played on another machine without the
problem.
- Josh
noneoyobiz
Not sure. Will have to check.
> Is it constant throughout the program, or just
> during specific high-contrast scenes?
100% of the time.
noneoyobiz
Too
>bad you didn't take care of this while it was still under waranty.
>
> Peace
#1. I have been saying it is a player issue. It's been others who have
disagreed.
#2. I bought it used. It didn't have the problem when I first bought it
anyway.
Topcoder
noneoyobiz wrote in message <3Uwg8.80$9u.1...@news.ntplx.net>...
>#2. I bought it used. It didn't have the problem when I first bought it
>anyway.
Some things which could cause this.
1 A low-quality video cable
2 A defective video cable.
3 An excessively long video cable.
Those would be easy to check. I'll assume you tried another cable already.
4 Uneven power on line.
I'm not an electrician, so I cannot advise you properly on this.
However, if it is already as good as it is going to get,
you may need to install a power stabilizer/conditioner.
5 Bad power supply in player.
Maybe the capacitors are drying or dried up.
6 Improperly set video gain control.
To fix that, you need the schematic so that you can locate
the trim potentiometer, unless you get real lucky,
and it is clearly labeled and easily adjusted.
However, if you do NOT know your way around electronic equipment,
you should stay the hell out from "underneath the hood".
Some rather innocuous looking electronic components have a nasty habit
of not giving a tinker's damn about "insulated grips" on screwdrivers.
Poke the wrong thing and your "vertical hold" could switch to horizontal,
possibly permanently, in 2 seconds flat.
Kevin Hawerchuk
Have you considered sending your defective 704 to Kurtis Bahr? He's
working on one right now, and if he could compare it to yours, it
might make it easier for him to figure out what the problem is and fix
both players at once!
Kevin.
noneoyobiz
> working on one right now, and if he could compare it to yours, it
> might make it easier for him to figure out what the problem is and fix
> both players at once!
> Kevin.
I *am* sending it to him. I just have not had the time to find a box and
package it up. I'll get to it shortly.
And it isn't due to bad video cables, folks. That was ruled out long ago.
Kurtis Bahr
then I cannot fix it. Better hold off on sending too many players until I
find out if I can locate this and fix it.
Kurtis
Steve Feustel
I had this exact problem with a 704 I purchased 3 or 4 years ago. If you do a
Google search of this newsgroup for "comet streaking" you'll find some comments
on it. Yes, it streaked all the way to the right on certain scenes. I remember
the early funeral scene in "Paper Moon" was particularly bad (people's heads
against the sky) and it was what I used to demonstrate the problem to the
service folk. To me, the problem made the player virtually unwatchable. I
compared it to my old 701 and it definitely did not exhibit the same problems
using the same cables and discs. I don't know that I ever determined that it
didn't happen on CAV discs, although now that I think about it, the discs I
really noticed it on (Paper Moon and also Disney's Peter Pan) were CLV discs.
As it was under warranty, I brought it to an authorized service center (United
Radio -- I think -- in Syracuse, NY). They did what I believe was just a
standard, by-the-book calibration on it. When I got it back the problem was
most definitely not fixed. I brought it back and bitched and moaned some more
and they agreed to take another look at it. A few days later I got a call from
a Pioneer rep who said the problem was "too expensive to fix" but that they
would offer me a replacement player. What to make of the "too expensive" part I
don't know -- but at any rate they couldn't or wouldn't fix it -- but they
didn't deny that it was a problem. However since the 704's were discontinued
they were going to give me a new DVL-700. I bitched and moaned about this too
because I had read some not-so-great things about the 700. I talked them into
giving me a DVL-919 which I think was just coming out at the time. I've been
relatively happy with it as a DVD player, although I don't think the LD
performance is even up to my old Pioneer 701 that I was looking to replace.
What I wanted was a 704 without the streaking/smearing problem!
Steve
Jerome Marot
[...]
>
> #2. I bought it used. It didn't have the problem when I first bought it
> anyway.
I have read the other posts where you said you have tried other TVs
and other cables, so I suppose we can exclude that. Now we have the
information that this player did not have this defect at first.
Are-you experiencing this problem on the S-VHS output (does this
player have one?), but not on the composite output? If not, and from
the above, I would tend to believe that a condensator in the video
ouput amplifier has gone weak resulting in an ouput that has either a
wrong (far too high) level or a wrong impedance. You'll need your
player serviced.
If you have an oscilloscope, you can check the video output to find
out what is going on. This should be relatively easy once you have a
LD with the suitable test pattern.
Nicolas Santini
extends into the vertical bars in case the TV is 16:9 ?
BILLSCHWENKE
>player have one?
Of course!!
Stay alert, it is a Pioneer CLD D704!!
Bill
Matthew L. Martin
Bill, you moron.
Jerome is posting from Europe. The CLD D704 may well never have been available
there. His question was reasonable. Your rude response was not.
--
Matthew
"All you need to start an asylum is an empty room and the right kind of people". Alexander Bullock ("My Man Godfrey" 1936):
Copy username over me to respond.
______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION = http://www.binaries.net
BILLSCHWENKE
>available
>there. His question was reasonable. Your rude response was not.
>--
>
>Matthew
>
Rude response coming from the 'pot' again?
If you've been here long enough, and I figure Jerome has, he should know about
the US version
Bill
noneoyobiz
"Jerome Marot" <gzoo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
noneoyobiz
news:13d89e92.02030...@posting.google.com...
> I posted elsewhere but will re-post here: does any of the smearing
> extends into the vertical bars in case the TV is 16:9 ?
No.
noneoyobiz
they
> would offer me a replacement player. What to make of the "too expensive"
> part I don't know -- but at any rate they couldn't or wouldn't fix it --
but they
> didn't deny that it was a problem. However since the 704's were
discontinued
> they were going to give me a new DVL-700. I bitched and moaned about this
too
> because I had read some not-so-great things about the 700. I talked them
into
> giving me a DVL-919 which I think was just coming out at the time. I've
been
> relatively happy with it as a DVD player, although I don't think the LD
> performance is even up to my old Pioneer 701 that I was looking to
replace.
> What I wanted was a 704 without the streaking/smearing problem!
>
> Steve
I hear ya, Steve. I want a 704 without streaking, but it seems that is near
impossible. I may have to settle for an old clunker that is soft and fuzzy
and buy an iscan Pro or something.
Jerome Marot
Let's not discuss whether the response was rude or not. I may have
been around long enough (google knows), but I am not particularly
interested in knowing the particulars of all LD players past and
present. So the CLD D704 only has composite out? One thing less to
test.
mlmartin
Jerome Marot wrote:
I have two D704s. They both have s-video out.
Matthew
--
"... Mr. (Gregory) LaCava, a producer-director who could be called a
genius except for the fact that Orson Welles has debased the term ...",
H. Allen Smith, "Lost in the Horse Latitudes"
KBD
wrote:
>I don't mind working on players once I find a fix but if it's in the chips
>then I cannot fix it. Better hold off on sending too many players until I
>find out if I can locate this and fix it.
>
>Kurtis
>
IIRC, wasn't there a problem found with some 704s made between a
particular range of dates? I think it was different artifact
though... rolling bars on some discs I think. May be related... or at
least would possibly be interesting to note the mfg date on those
players having the problem. If they match, perhaps it could be an
alternate manifestation of a related defect..?
<digging through google...>
Ah! Do a search in AVL for the subject "Elite CLD-99, CLD-704
(WARNING)" in December 1997. Huh, well, maybe it's not related, but
might be worth keeping in mind while investigating.
-KD
----------
"Who the h*** wants to hear actors talk?"
-- H.M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
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Kurtis Bahr
and yellow lines in the sky behind the plane about 8000 frames from the end, that side
is CAV. This issue was corrected by Pioneer.
Kurtis
Thad Floryan
| That was a different issue. For example when playing Air Force One there
| was green and yellow lines in the sky behind the plane about 8000 frames
| from the end, that side is CAV. This issue was corrected by Pioneer.
|
| Kurtis
Whoa! That scene was one of the reasons I relegated my CLD-99 to doorstop
duty and bought the HLD-X9 players (which don't have that problem).
How did Pioneer correct that issue?
Ollie W. Holmes
>
> Have you considered sending your defective 704 to Kurtis Bahr? He's
> working on one right now, and if he could compare it to yours, it
> might make it easier for him to figure out what the problem is and fix
> both players at once!
> Kevin.
Sometimes you just have to retire the old player and purchase another
one. I had an old CLD-3070 that was a real warhorse. But the
mechanical parts just wore down (maybe the laser too), and the picture
became more and more tainted by field line crosstalk and smearing.
For what it's worth, there is a "mint" condition CLD-D704 player up
for auction on ebay now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1337428127
The last three CLD-D703's went for under $350, if that will do. I have
not seen the problem with ghost extension on this model. If a player
is working right, a high luminance object will die down to background
in 12 dots or less. That's the nature of causal low-pass filters used
in NTSC video applications. If you want better step function response,
you'll have to wait for HD program material.
noneoyobiz
> one. I had an old CLD-3070 that was a real warhorse. But the
> mechanical parts just wore down (maybe the laser too), and the picture
> became more and more tainted by field line crosstalk and smearing.
Other than the smearing, it is a great player. It was a replacement for an
old Magnavox.
> The last three CLD-D703's went for under $350, if that will do. I
> have not seen the problem with ghost extension on this model.
I have thought about it, but right now I am leery of buying another used
deck. I am going to wait for Kurtis' report on the decks he is currently
looking at.
Jasper Janssen
wrote:
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1337428127
>
>The last three CLD-D703's went for under $350, if that will do. I have
>not seen the problem with ghost extension on this model. If a player
>is working right, a high luminance object will die down to background
>in 12 dots or less. That's the nature of causal low-pass filters used
>in NTSC video applications. If you want better step function response,
>you'll have to wait for HD program material.
What's the point of using causal filters in video applications[1]? In
sound, non-causals (ie, echo before the signal comes, for those playing
along at home -- AFAIK that only happens in certain digital signal
processing filters) make the sound very unnatural, but in video, an echo
to the left rather than to the right shouldn't matter one way or the other
should it?
Jasper
[1] Other than being cheaper to construct, that is
Roy
When this thread started I tested my just bought 704 right away and was very
relieved to find 'nothing' wrong....unfortunately yesterday evening I was
watching 'Face/Off' and DAMN........there it was in more then one
occasion.....'ghosting and smearing'.
Especially on side 2 around 14 minutes when 'castor meets polux after polux
is released for prison' it's very evident.
But througout the entire disc I saw all kinds of anomalies like 'a window in
the background where light comes through' smears horribly.
Just like there is too much (or too less?) videosignal for the tv-set to
handle. Of course I also 'threw' in the Star Wars SE (A new hope) disc
hoping it was a FACE/OFF-disc problem but alas....
My cheaper NTSC/PAL CLD925 -hooked up with the same cables- is playing these
discs fine...
Please Help us Kurtis....you are our only hope!! Have you any clue what the
problem could be?
Roy
"noneoyobiz" <nt...@hotmasses.com> wrote in message
news:hLQf8.47$9u.1...@news.ntplx.net...
> http://www.deceptions.net/captures/cld704.html
>
> New photos are up showing the problem I and others are having with out
> Pioneer laserdisc players and the serious problem of smearing towards the
> right of the screen. Scroll down about half way for the new shots from
STAR
> WARS.
>
>
Joe DiBasi
>
> Please Help us Kurtis....you are our only hope!! Have you any clue what the
> problem could be?
>
My 99 used to display this same problem. But since I got the X9, I
haven't used the 99 in over a year. Recently, I took the 99 out of
the box to give the mechanics some excercise. I used some of the
discs where I had noticed that smear problem. But...voila! The
problem was no longer there! I tried scene after scene and could no
longer see that effect. I have absolutely no explanation as to how
this problem resolved itself. But it makes me very curious to hear
what Kurtis finds out.