C: A Dead Language
Egg Troll
not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked
to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune
500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
C's biggest difficulty, as we all know, is the fact that it is by far
one of the slowest languages in existance, especially when compared to
more modern languages such as Java and C#. Although the reasons for
this are varied, the main reasons seems to be the way C requires a
programmer to laboriously work with chunks of memory.
Requiring a programmer to manipulate blocks of memory is a tedious way
to program. This was satisfactory back in the early days of coding,
but then again, so were punchcards. By using what are called
"pointers" a C programmer is basically requiring the computer to do
three sets of work rather than one. The first time requires the
computer to duplicate whatever is stored in the memory space "pointed
to" by the pointer. The second time requires it to perform the needed
operation on this space. Finally the computer must delete the
duplicate set and set the values of the original accordingly.
Clearly this is a horrendous use of resources and the chief reason why
C is so slow. When one looks at a more modern (and a more serious)
programming language like Java, C# or - even better - Visual Basic
that lacks such archaic coding styles, one will also note a serious
speed increase over C.
So what does this mean for the programming community? I think clearly
that C needs to be abandonded. There are two candidates that would be
a suitable replacement for it. Those are Java and Visual Basic.
Having programmed in both for many years, I believe that VB has the
edge. Not only is it slightly faster than Java its also much easier to
code in. I found C to be confusing, frightening and intimidating with
its non-GUI-based coding style. Furthermore, I like to see the source
code of the projects I work with. Java's source seems to be under the
monopolistic thumb of Sun much the way that GCC is obscured from us by
the marketing people at the FSF. Microsoft's "shared source" under
which Visual Basic is released definately seems to be the most fair
and reasonable of all the licenses in existance, with none of the
harsh restrictions of the BSD license. It also lacks the GPLs
requirement that anything coded with its tools becomes property of the
FSF.
I hope to see a switch from C to VB very soon. I've already spoken
with various luminaries in the C coding world and most are eager to
begin to transition. Having just gotten off the phone with Mr. Alan
Cox, I can say that he is quite thrilled with the speed increases that
will occur when the Linux kernel is completely rewritten in Visual
Basic. Richard Stallman plans to support this, and hopes that the
great Swede himself, Linux Torvaldis, won't object to renaming Linux
to VB/Linux. Although not a C coder himself, I'm told that Slashdot's
very own Admiral Taco will support this on his web site. Finally,
Dennis Ritchie is excited about the switch!
Thank you for your time. Happy coding.
Egg Troll
Ben Pfaff
> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
> not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
> explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
> as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
I suggest you update the clock on your computer. You're 26 days
late for April Fools Day.
--
"Welcome to the wonderful world of undefined behavior, where the demons
are nasal and the DeathStation users are nervous." --Daniel Fox
Peter Köhlmann
> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
> not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
> explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
> as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
>
> To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked
> to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune
> 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
>
LOL. Someone who has never coded in C but in VB is called in for the rescue
> C's biggest difficulty, as we all know, is the fact that it is by far
> one of the slowest languages in existance, especially when compared to
> more modern languages such as Java and C#. Although the reasons for
> this are varied, the main reasons seems to be the way C requires a
> programmer to laboriously work with chunks of memory.
>
It seems that Egg "all over his face" Troll has no idea what he is talking
about
> Requiring a programmer to manipulate blocks of memory is a tedious way
> to program. This was satisfactory back in the early days of coding,
> but then again, so were punchcards. By using what are called
> "pointers" a C programmer is basically requiring the computer to do
> three sets of work rather than one. The first time requires the
> computer to duplicate whatever is stored in the memory space "pointed
> to" by the pointer. The second time requires it to perform the needed
> operation on this space. Finally the computer must delete the
> duplicate set and set the values of the original accordingly.
>
> Clearly this is a horrendous use of resources and the chief reason why
> C is so slow. When one looks at a more modern (and a more serious)
> programming language like Java, C# or - even better - Visual Basic
> that lacks such archaic coding styles, one will also note a serious
> speed increase over C.
>
> So what does this mean for the programming community? I think clearly
> that C needs to be abandonded. There are two candidates that would be
> a suitable replacement for it. Those are Java and Visual Basic.
>
<snip big chunks of similar drivel>
And you guys out there wonder why noone with half a brain takes anyone
serious who is jabbering about the wonders of MS?
Peter
--
What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth? Judging from realistic
simulations involving a sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog,
we can assume it will be pretty bad. --- Dave Barry
Jan
> eggt...@yahoo.com (Egg Troll) writes:
>
>> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or not
>> to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
>> explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
>> Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
>> as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
>
> I suggest you update the clock on your computer. You're 26 days late
> for April Fools Day.
Good joke though :-)
Mark
While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
I think this says it all
lol
bv
>
> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
> not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
> explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
> as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
There's a software "cemetery" that's getting some 100K+ hits a day --
http://netlib.org -- and that's a lot of gawking for a dead anything,
except Ayatollah...
mjt
> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
whatever
--
+==================================
| M i c h a e l J. T o b l e r
| Authorship: "Inside Linux" ...
| "C++ Unleashed" ... "C++ How-To"
| Motocycling, Surfing, Skydiving
+==================================
Cowboy Bob
> To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked
> to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune
> 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
Java over ten years? Hmmm, I don't think so.
Bob
--
"All I wanted in the end was world domination and a whole lot of money to
spend"
- Justin Sullivan
Registered Linux User #228620
mjt
before i begin, i know this is a flimsy troll
(or at least a parody). but i'm gonna
comment ANYWAY, because it's a good
subject to discuss .... onward through the fog ....
> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
> not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
'c' has always been a *systems* programming
language - it was never [originally] intended
for applications programming ...
> explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
> as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
fortran, cobol, and perl are very much
thriving (not as popular, but still very much
in use). my guess at the replacement is
gonna be c++ or java.
> To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked
> to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune
> 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
that's interesting, because java wont celebrate
it's 10th birthday until May 23, 2005 - am i to
assume you were using "oak" before that ?!??!
> C's biggest difficulty, as we all know, is the fact that it is by far
> one of the slowest languages in existance, especially when compared to
> more modern languages such as Java and C#.
you have *GOT* to be kidding me. what do you
think all the worlds' operating systems are written
with? most good compilers go straight to binary.
and some of these compilers put out some
pretty efficient binary. i used to a boat-load of
assembly development, and some of the cutting
edge c-compilers were putting out efficient
code.
java is interpreted, although you can generate
native binaries. vb is in the same boat, but
its object-based, which is fairly wimpy. i cant
talk about c#, all i know is that it was created
as a marketing language to compete with
java (cause microsoft couldnt shut it down).
> Although the reasons for
> this are varied, the main reasons seems to be the way C requires a
> programmer to laboriously work with chunks of memory.
a c programmer worth his salt will know exactly
how to use his chosen language. it's the typical
9-5 programmer that hasnt a clue.
> Requiring a programmer to manipulate blocks of memory is a tedious way
> to program. This was satisfactory back in the early days of coding,
> but then again, so were punchcards.
that's not even a comparison, so try something
else. learning how to release allocated memory
is child's play - you just have to be an efficient
developer.
> By using what are called
> "pointers" a C programmer is basically requiring the computer to do
> three sets of work rather than one. The first time requires the
> computer to duplicate whatever is stored in the memory space "pointed
> to" by the pointer. The second time requires it to perform the needed
> operation on this space. Finally the computer must delete the
> duplicate set and set the values of the original accordingly.
you are obviously clueless, based on your previous
paragraph. you dont "duplicate" memory so that
a pointer can point to something. memory is first
allocated, either on the heap or the stack (i hope
i'm not using language that is unfamilar), and then
a pointer is created, either on the stack or heap,
so that you can access the memory it is pointing
to. pointers are the most efficient way to access
memory on the heap (and stack), short of reverting
to assembly language. pointer arithmetic and the
use of a pointer to "walk" memory locations is
waaaaay more efficient then, say, using array
offsets.
> Clearly this is a horrendous use of resources and the chief reason why
> C is so slow.
again, it is an incredibly *fast* language - your
lack of understanding is displayed through
your naive statements.
> When one looks at a more modern (and a more serious)
> programming language like Java, C# or - even better - Visual Basic
vb - what a joke. like i said, i've never dealt with
c#, so i cant talk to it. and java is efficient for
OTHER reasons - it's not faster than 'c'. there is
a lot of plumbing in java that is included out of
the box, is truly object oriented, and includes a
garbage collector. but the garbage collector is
very inefficient, in time-critical applications. you
can get garbage collectors for c++ and c also.
> that lacks such archaic coding styles, one will also note a serious
> speed increase over C.
i'll tell you what, let's decide on a back-end,
speed critical application to run on a real OS,
like Linux or Unix - you do it in VB, and i'll do
it in C, and we'll do some speed runs and see
what the outcome is.
much of my experience developing real time
systems involved, you guessed it, c. and why
is that? because it is fast, compact, and very
efficient.
> So what does this mean for the programming community? I think clearly
> that C needs to be abandonded. There are two candidates that would be
> a suitable replacement for it. Those are Java and Visual Basic.
so, what happened to c++???? because i am
sure you have no significant experience with
it, you've already dismissed it.
> Having programmed in both for many years, I believe that VB has the
> edge.
BWA HAHHAHHAHAHA ... thanks, i was
feeling a little blue, but now i'm smiling :))
> Not only is it slightly faster than Java its also much easier to
> code in. I found C to be confusing, frightening and intimidating with
> its non-GUI-based coding style.
like i said, you havent a clue about the language
because of that typical microsoft mentality: "if it
dont have a GUI, i'm lost"
> Furthermore, I like to see the source
> code of the projects I work with. Java's source seems to be under the
> monopolistic thumb of Sun much the way that GCC is obscured from us by
> the marketing people at the FSF.
again, you havent a clue. what, do you think
that sun owns all the code you write??? sheesh.
> I hope to see a switch from C to VB very soon. I've already spoken
> with various luminaries in the C coding world and most are eager to
> begin to transition.
BWA HAHAHAHAHAHA. come on come on,
*names* please - what "luminaries" in the
industry are dying to move from c to vb.
mlw
The really sad part of it is that much of the discussion is used seriously by
Java advocates. I have heard the java zealots actually say that java is
typically faster than C or C++. At that point I shake my head an assume nothing
can be said to someone so confused.
Tom Gough
> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
> not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
> explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been.
Excuse me?
> Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
> as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
>
> To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked
> to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune
> 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
In what way is VB more *low level* than C?????
>
> C's biggest difficulty, as we all know, is the fact that it is by far
> one of the slowest languages in existance, especially when compared to
> more modern languages such as Java and C#.
Slower to code, maybe, not to run
> Although the reasons for
> this are varied, the main reasons seems to be the way C requires a
> programmer to laboriously work with chunks of memory.
>
> Requiring a programmer to manipulate blocks of memory is a tedious way
> to program.
So what? If you know what you are doing you get a more efficient
program.
> This was satisfactory back in the early days of coding,
> but then again, so were punchcards. By using what are called
> "pointers" a C programmer is basically requiring the computer to do
> three sets of work rather than one. The first time requires the
> computer to duplicate whatever is stored in the memory space "pointed
> to" by the pointer. The second time requires it to perform the needed
> operation on this space. Finally the computer must delete the
> duplicate set and set the values of the original accordingly.
>
> Clearly this is a horrendous use of resources and the chief reason why
> C is so slow. When one looks at a more modern (and a more serious)
> programming language like Java, C# or - even better - Visual Basic
> that lacks such archaic coding styles, one will also note a serious
> speed increase over C.
>
> So what does this mean for the programming community? I think clearly
> that C needs to be abandonded. There are two candidates that would be
> a suitable replacement for it. Those are Java and Visual Basic.
>
> Having programmed in both for many years, I believe that VB has the
> edge. Not only is it slightly faster than Java its also much easier to
> code in. I found C to be confusing, frightening and intimidating with
> its non-GUI-based coding style.
You're a troll aren't you?
YOU ARE NOT WORTH YOUR SALT IF YOU CANNOT PROGRAM WITHOUT A GUI.
>Furthermore, I like to see the source
> code of the projects I work with. Java's source seems to be under the
> monopolistic thumb of Sun much the way that GCC is obscured from us by
> the marketing people at the FSF.
???
> Microsoft's "shared source" under
> which Visual Basic is released definately seems to be the most fair
> and reasonable of all the licenses in existance, with none of the
> harsh restrictions of the BSD license. It also lacks the GPLs
> requirement that anything coded with its tools becomes property of the
> FSF.
>
> I hope to see a switch from C to VB very soon. I've already spoken
> with various luminaries in the C coding world and most are eager to
> begin to transition. Having just gotten off the phone with Mr. Alan
> Cox, I can say that he is quite thrilled with the speed increases that
> will occur when the Linux kernel is completely rewritten in Visual
> Basic. Richard Stallman plans to support this, and hopes that the
> great Swede himself, Linux Torvaldis, won't object to renaming Linux
> to VB/Linux. Although not a C coder himself, I'm told that Slashdot's
> very own Admiral Taco will support this on his web site. Finally,
> Dennis Ritchie is excited about the switch!
>
> Thank you for your time. Happy coding.
>
> Egg Troll
<PLOMK>
Greg Martin
>YOU ARE NOT WORTH YOUR SALT IF YOU CANNOT PROGRAM WITHOUT A GUI.
>
><PLOMK>
>
>--
More importantly ... you're not worth your salt if you can't spell
plonk!
istartedi
Egg Troll <eggt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4e2f159f.0204...@posting.google.com...
> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
Hey! You got Slashdot in my USENET.
Hey! You got USENET in my Slashdot.
Mmmmm... Reeses peanut butter Internet.
--$teve
comm...@vrml3d.com
(istartedi on Slashdot)
Donovan Rebbechi
> In article <4e2f159f.0204...@posting.google.com>, Egg Troll wrote:
> Excuse me?
> In what way is VB more *low level* than C?????
> program.
> YOU ARE NOT WORTH YOUR SALT IF YOU CANNOT PROGRAM WITHOUT A GUI.
The post was obviously intended as a joke. However, a rebuttal of a joke often
adds to the comical effect ...
--
Donovan
R. Jacobs
"mlw" <ma...@mohawksoft.com> wrote in message
news:3CCB4D22...@mohawksoft.com...
I'm a pretty serious OO and Java fan, but for some things like the
technology I'm working on for my current contract, there is no substitute
for an old-school hardcore down-and-dirty C on UNIX approach. It's ugly,
it's primitive, it's missing all the nice built-in collections/socket/io
classes of Java, but it is fast.
R.
LinuxFr33k
the development of C#???
"Egg Troll" <eggt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4e2f159f.0204...@posting.google.com...
Serve Laurijssen
> not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
> explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
> as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
Your joke is a bit weak. I liked this one more from a few weeks back.
>>Someone wrote:
>>I read somewhere (believe it was gamespot.com) that you can buy morrowind
>>april 29th. Anyone can confirm this?
>You have been trolled, unfortunately. April 29th, also known as April Fools
>Day, is a date that only occurs on leap years.
And STILL people started answering!
>Holy crap, what planet are you from.
>Maybe you are thinking of February 29th for leap year and the 1st of April
as Fools day.
istartedi
LinuxFr33k <ro...@linuxfr33k.com> wrote in message
news:yVKy8.81483$HH5....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> If C is such a dead language as you say.... then why would MS put money
into
> the development of C#???
Please tell me you're kidding. C# certainly isn't C.
--$teve
Mark A. Gibbs
> If C is such a dead language as you say.... then why would MS put money into
> the development of C#???
You're kidding, right? C is just about as related to C# as it is to Java. In fact, i'd call c# and java relatives before i said the same about c and c#.
Maruki
Bob Harvey
Maybe he is standing on his head. High would then in fact be low!
--
Those who make their abode in edifices of a silicon matter should refrain
from capitulating ligneous projectiles.
"Mark" <move...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:PUGy8.10566$Ob6.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
paul cooke
> If C is such a dead language as you say.... then why would MS put money
> into the development of C#???
You Have Been Trolled...
Emmanuel Delahaye
news:4e2f159f.0204...@posting.google.com:
<unread>
> Egg Troll
ITYW Troll egg.
Smash the troll.
--
-ed- emdel at noos.fr
The C-language FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
C-library: http://www.dinkumware.com/htm_cl/index.html
FAQ de f.c.l.c : http://www.isty-info.uvsq.fr/~rumeau/fclc/
Tom Legrady
Java several years before it was released obviously knows more than you!
Tom
Adrian Edmonds
> To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked
> to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune
> 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
> Egg Troll
On May 23, 1995, John Gage, director of the Science Office for Sun
Microsystems, and Marc Andreessen, cofounder and executive vice president at
NetscapeTM, stepped onto a stage and announced to the SunWorldTM audience
that JavaTM technology was real, it was official, and it was going to be
incorporated into Netscape NavigatorTM, the world's portal to the Internet.
So, 10 years in Java. Programming what? A time machine?
--
Adrian Edmonds
Your voice is your key
http://www.voiceprove.com
Johan Lindquist
Tom Gough <gou...@email.com> suddenly blurted:
><PLOMK>
"Please Log Off Maintenant, Kook"
Feeling alittle french, are we?
cheers,
/Johan
--
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. Perth ---> *
11:58am up 41 days, 12:39, 2 users, load average: 1.01, 1.14, 1.18
$ cat /dev/bollocks Registered Linux user #261729
maximize strategic applications
CBFalconer
>
> Maybe he is standing on his head. High would then in fact be low!
>
> --
> Those who make their abode in edifices of a silicon matter should
> refrain from capitulating ligneous projectiles.
You are in urgent need of a new dictionary. Also, you mean either
material or "of silicon matter" without the "a". As it is, it is
a syntax error. :-)
--
Chuck F (cbfal...@yahoo.com) (cbfal...@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!
CBFalconer
>
> If C is such a dead language as you say.... then why would MS put
> money into the development of C#???
Don't top-post. To attempt to stampede the herds of foolish and
ignorant users into further MS lockins, and increase their
monopoly and profit margin.
Stuart Golodetz
news:slrnacmkbt....@linux.local...
<snip>
> You're a troll aren't you?
Hence his name: "Egg Troll"...DUH
<snip>
> <PLOMK>
ITYM: <PLONK>
HTH,
Stuart.
ComWizz
> the development of C#???
>
>
>
> "Egg Troll" <eggt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:4e2f159f.0204...@posting.google.com...
> > Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
> > not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
> > explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> > Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
> > as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
> >
> > To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked
> > to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune
> > 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> > fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> > poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
> >
> > C's biggest difficulty, as we all know, is the fact that it is by far
> > one of the slowest languages in existance, especially when compared to
> > more modern languages such as Java and C#. Although the reasons for
> > this are varied, the main reasons seems to be the way C requires a
> > programmer to laboriously work with chunks of memory.
> >
I agree, MS wouldn't pay for the development of C# if C was "dead".
C isn't dead! And Perl is NOT retired...
And my third point VB may seem "simpler to use than C", but in the
long run(note: I used to use VB, I then switched to GNU/Linux and I
couldn't be happier!) C and C++ is better.
I don't do much C programming, I love Perl and I do some C++
programming.
C and C++ are like THE most used programming languages on any OS.
Sacher Khoudari
best_jokes_seen_on_the_internet library! Its great! Can you get me more
of this nonsense-stuf?
Thanks!
Sacher
P.S: I like the part with 'VB and Java are more low-level languages than
C' LOL
Egg Troll wrote:
> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
> not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
> explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
> as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
>
> To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked
> to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune
> 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
>
> C's biggest difficulty, as we all know, is the fact that it is by far
> one of the slowest languages in existance, especially when compared to
> more modern languages such as Java and C#. Although the reasons for
> this are varied, the main reasons seems to be the way C requires a
> programmer to laboriously work with chunks of memory.
>
LinuxFr33k
relationship between C and C#!!!
"ComWizz" <com...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:ac446b6f.02042...@posting.google.com...
JeReMy
Perl has been retired? Damn, why didn't anyone tell me!
Greg Martin
wrote:
><snip>
>
>Perl has been retired? Damn, why didn't anyone tell me!
>
It was a quiet afair - lovely gold watch though!
Mark McIntyre
wrote:
>Thank you for being the only one in this entire group who actually sees the
>relationship between C and C#!!!
Why thank someone when they're talking nonsense? The two share as much
in common as C and Java.
--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
Minti
> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
> not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
> explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
> as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
Great. It is good to be bold.
>
> To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked
> to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune
> 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
Are you sure
1) You have been spending time with Java for 10 years
2) Java and VB are more low level than C.
>
> C's biggest difficulty, as we all know, is the fact that it is by far
> one of the slowest languages in existance,
To this date I have only written only one Java Program and that when I
was helping my friend in writing his project report. And it ran very
slowly as compared to C. BTW as I have learnt from this group the
questions about speed are implementation defined. So off you go.
> especially when compared to
> more modern languages such as Java and C#. Although the reasons for
> this are varied, the main reasons seems to be the way C requires a
> programmer to laboriously work with chunks of memory.
>
So you have not been coding in VB.
> Having just gotten off the phone with Mr. Alan
> Cox, I can say that he is quite thrilled with the speed increases that
> will occur when the Linux kernel is completely rewritten in Visual
> Basic.
LOL
> Richard Stallman plans to support this, and hopes that the
> great Swede himself, Linux Torvaldis, won't object to renaming Linux
> to VB/Linux.
Dunno who Linux Trovoldis but if you heard Stallman correctly he even
wanted to make you the Lead Developer. Right. No wait he just phoned
me on my hotline and told me that you have been fired for making it
public.
> Although not a C coder himself, I'm told that Slashdot's
> very own Admiral Taco will support this on his web site. Finally,
> Dennis Ritchie is excited about the switch!
LOL.
Thanks for the joke I was somewhat on low today.
>
> Thank you for your time. Happy coding.
>
> Egg Troll
--
Minti
Troll -->
in early Scandinavian folklore, giant, monstrous being, sometimes
possessing magic powers. Hostile to men, trolls lived in castles and
haunted the surrounding districts after dark
Britanica Encyclopedia
Randall Stevens
Mark McIntyre wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Apr 2002 14:28:35 GMT, "LinuxFr33k" <ro...@linuxfr33k.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Thank you for being the only one in this entire group who actually sees the
>>relationship between C and C#!!!
>>
>
> Why thank someone when they're talking nonsense? The two share as much
> in common as C and Java.
>
>
>
There are others that see the relationship, follow the path; C came
first, C++ was a superset to C, Java was derived using C++ as a model,
C# was MS replacement for Java.
mlw
>
> mlw wrote:
> >
> ...
>
> >
> >
> > The really sad part of it is that much of the discussion is used seriously by
> > Java advocates. I have heard the java zealots actually say that java is
> > typically faster than C or C++. At that point I shake my head an assume nothing
> > can be said to someone so confused.
>
> and I'm probably more anti Java that anything else *but*, Java can be
> faster than C in some circumstances. This has to do with good run time
> compilation (hot-spot) compiling. Typically, the JVM causes so many
> cache trashes and page faults that we don't have to worry about this in
> real applications for a long while at least. However, I bet I could
> write an artificial example where Java would be faster than C. This is
> where some of the Java advoates confusion comes from.
Ok, you are on. You write an example where a java program should be faster than
a C program. I'll write the C version.
Gianni Mariani
mlw wrote:
I'm not the expert on hot spot/jit compiling.
check these out:
http://www.crhc.uiuc.edu/IMPACT/ftp/conference/compcon-97-cachejava.pdf
http://lists.ximian.com/archives/public/mono-list/2001-July/000774.html
http://www.itworld.com/AppDev/400/CWD012201Compilers/
http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/cs253/papers/r3040.pdf
A regular compiler is limited by it's static knowledge of how to
optimize while a jit compiler is able to take advantage of an actual
execution trace and hence on architectures where a pipeline flush is
costly (P4 e.g.) this can be a big advantage.
The Transmeta architectures talk about taking advantage of this as well.
Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced that this is the way to go,
it's just that your generalization was too general and I thought you'd
like to know a bit more.
All generalizations are wrong.
So, once you've read the articles above and you can understand what I
said, then I don't think you'll need to have a challenge.
Best regards
G
David Scarlett
>
> All generalizations are wrong.
LMAO. Even that one?
--
David Scarlett
dscarlett [AT] optushome [DOT] com [DOT] au
"Damn it, Kif, where's the little umbrella? That's what makes it a
scotch on the rocks!"
-Capt. Zapp Brannigann, Futurama
Peter Köhlmann
Coward. Inciting a challenge ("However, I bet I could write an artificial
example where Java would be faster than C"), and when someone actually
accepts it declining. You are sure you are not just some wintendo luser?
Peter
--
Microsoft's Guide To System Design:
The greatest productivity aid since typhoid.
Eugene Kuznetsov
>>
>>Ok, you are on. You write an example where a java program should be faster
>>than a C program. I'll write the C version.
>>
>
> I'm not the expert on hot spot/jit compiling.
>
> check these out:
> http://www.crhc.uiuc.edu/IMPACT/ftp/conference/compcon-97-cachejava.pdf
> http://lists.ximian.com/archives/public/mono-list/2001-July/000774.html
> http://www.itworld.com/AppDev/400/CWD012201Compilers/
> http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/cs253/papers/r3040.pdf
>
> A regular compiler is limited by it's static knowledge of how to
> optimize while a jit compiler is able to take advantage of an actual
> execution trace and hence on architectures where a pipeline flush is
> costly (P4 e.g.) this can be a big advantage.
Are you saying that Java compilers can optimize their code for e.g. P4
while C compilers for some reason can't?
(BTW: I had to strip comp.lang.java and comp.lang.basic.visual from the
headers - my NNTP server says that there's no such newsgroup? )
Larry Williams
> mlw wrote:
>
> >Gianni Mariani wrote:
> >
> >>mlw wrote:
> >>>The really sad part of it is that much of the discussion is used seriously by
> >>>Java advocates. I have heard the java zealots actually say that java is
> >>>typically faster than C or C++. At that point I shake my head an assume nothing
> >>>can be said to someone so confused.
> >>>
> >>Typically you are correct that java is slower. I'm *not* a Java zealot
> >>and I'm probably more anti Java that anything else *but*, Java can be
> >>faster than C in some circumstances.
Sure, turtle can be faster than cheetah too in some circumcstances.
> >Ok, you are on. You write an example where a java program should be faster than
> >a C program. I'll write the C version.
> >
>
> I'm not the expert on hot spot/jit compiling.
>
> check these out:
> http://www.crhc.uiuc.edu/IMPACT/ftp/conference/compcon-97-cachejava.pdf
> http://lists.ximian.com/archives/public/mono-list/2001-July/000774.html
> http://www.itworld.com/AppDev/400/CWD012201Compilers/
> http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/cs253/papers/r3040.pdf
http://www.bagley.org/~doug/shootout/
C is faster than Java (and than C++ too) in all 25 benchmarks.
C programs consume by far the least memory in all the benchmarks, with
equal Java programs using 10 - 20 times more memory, while C++ programs
consume about 2 times more memory than C programs.
Gianni Mariani
Go read ...
mlw wrote:
>So, you say that Java can be faster than C and that you could create an
>artificial example. Once I accept, you say you are no expert.
>
>Nice one slick.
>
mlw
Mark McIntyre
<rpst...@1stconnect.com> wrote:
>
>
>Mark McIntyre wrote:
>
>> Why thank someone when they're talking nonsense? The two share as much
>> in common as C and Java.
>
>There are others that see the relationship, follow the path;
do lets...
>C came first, C++ was a superset to C,
False - see Torvalds and many many others ad naus.
>Java was derived using C++ as a model,
Not so sure Sun agree with that, but let it stand.
>C# was MS replacement for Java.
1) note "replacement for", not "developed from". Thats as in "the
train was a replacement for the horse", and I'm sure you'd agree,
trains are not related to horses.....
2) Reread my post: I said: "The two share as much in common as C and
Java.", which your (faulty) logic actually demonstrates to be false -
you show that C has /less/ in common with C# than Java. Thanks, I
concede that point..
mjt
> Gianni Mariani wrote:
> Ok, you are on. You write an example where a java program should be faster than
> a C program. I'll write the C version.
well, developing an application is easier
and quicker in java, than doing it in c,
but i think c program compiled to some
native binary is faster than the competing
java (interpreted) bytecode. however,
there are compilers that will get the
bytecode to a native binary.
--
+==================================
| M i c h a e l J. T o b l e r
| Authorship: "Inside Linux" ...
| "C++ Unleashed" ... "C++ How-To"
| Motocycling, Surfing, Skydiving
+==================================
Linonut
> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
> not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
> explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
> as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
Nice parody you've written. I, too, think we should rewrite
all of GNU/Linux. Not in VB, but in Java.
Chris
mlw
>
> Go read ...
It doesn't matter. You said you could write such a program. Well, I'm waiting.
Gianni Mariani
mlw wrote:
> Gianni Mariani wrote:
>
>>Go read ...
>
>
> It doesn't matter. You said you could write such a program. Well, I'm waiting.
>
>
Keep waiting ...
I have 3 projects I'm late on, once they're done, you're on - that'l be
about 6 months from now.
I can tell you what I'll be looking to do. It will be a computationally
intensive app, somthing that has alot of branches. I'll probably pick a
P4 as the benchmark machine because of it's deep pipeline and I'll find
things that require the pipeline to flush alot that the c-compiler is
unable to optimize around because it does not know the dynamic nature of
the execution.
Then, if the jit compiler is worth anything, you're toast.
Again, I'm no Java advocate, I'm just saying there exceptions.
And besides, since I've only written 300 lines of java 6 years ago,
It'll probably take me a while to figure it all out.
Remember, I've set the bar very low - all I need is to find a single
example that can be faster than a c program that does the same thing and
I win the bet.
So, if you're willing to bet, then pony up some cash baby !
iGadget
news:MPG.17369d07...@news.hinet.hr...
And the C program only took 25 times as many lines to code, and 10-20 times
as long to debug :)
I prefer C to Java in most ways (I feel much more 'in control'), but the
ease of design and debugging with all those lovely libraries... ahh...
Cheers,
Gadget
mlw
As I have said before, as long as performance, stability, resource utilization,
platform consistency, flexibility, and interoperability are not concerns, yea,
have at it. Java is your platform. Once you start thinking like a software
engineer, you will see java is a big bad black hole.
mlw
>
> mlw wrote:
> > Gianni Mariani wrote:
> >
> >>Go read ...
> >
> >
> > It doesn't matter. You said you could write such a program. Well, I'm waiting.
> >
> >
>
> Keep waiting ...
>
> I have 3 projects I'm late on, once they're done, you're on - that'l be
> about 6 months from now.
Oh please, like everyone else that says Java is in some way better than a
native language. They claim it, but when push comes to shove, always have a
list of excuses why they can't do it.
>
> So, if you're willing to bet, then pony up some cash baby !
It isn't about money. You made a claim, I challenged it, now you are looking
for excuses why you can't back up your claim. Unless you put your money (in
this case, time [time == money]) where your mouth is, you lose.
You need more incentive than your own words?
Fred Bloggs
> "Gianni Mariani" <giann...@mariani.ws> wrote in message news:3CCC73A8...@mariani.ws...
> >
> > All generalizations are wrong.
>
> LMAO. Even that one?
Presumably thats the exception which proves the rule!
Gianni Mariani
> Gianni Mariani wrote:
>
>>mlw wrote:
>>
>>>Gianni Mariani wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Go read ...
>>>
>>>
>>>It doesn't matter. You said you could write such a program. Well, I'm waiting.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Keep waiting ...
>>
>>I have 3 projects I'm late on, once they're done, you're on - that'l be
>>about 6 months from now.
>
>
> Oh please, like everyone else that says Java is in some way better than a
> native language. They claim it, but when push comes to shove, always have a
> list of excuses why they can't do it.
I don't claim it - in fact I know that a load of cr4p. I've
unfortunately inherited a Java project where it is impossible to
maintain because it was easy to write.
You need to re-read my first post sonny jim. I'm just saying that there
is technology out there that can be faster than statically compiled
code. In fact, HP claims that they've done tests where they translate
their own compiled code at run time and get better performance. So,
you're uscwap (assuming HP is not full of bs).
>
>
>>So, if you're willing to bet, then pony up some cash baby !
>
>
> It isn't about money. You made a claim, I challenged it, now you are looking
> for excuses why you can't back up your claim. Unless you put your money (in
> this case, time [time == money]) where your mouth is, you lose.
>
> You need more incentive than your own words?
Backing down eh ? Can't put yer money where your mouth is ?
Chicken !
mlw
> > It isn't about money. You made a claim, I challenged it, now you are looking
> > for excuses why you can't back up your claim. Unless you put your money (in
> > this case, time [time == money]) where your mouth is, you lose.
> >
> > You need more incentive than your own words?
>
> Backing down eh ? Can't put yer money where your mouth is ?
I am not backing down at all, you said that you could write an artificial
example where Java would be faster than native C. I am still waiting for your
example.
> Chicken !
Your words have no meaning until I see Java code that you say will run faster
than C code.
Gianni Mariani
> Gianni Mariani wrote:
>
>
> I am not backing down at all, you said that you could write an artificial
> example where Java would be faster than native C. I am still waiting for your
> example.
>
A 'bet' means you're willing to put your money into it. Since we both
concede that it's a hard thing to do, I'll be putting *alot* of time
into it. This is somewhat one-sided ! So it's unfair if there is no
money in it for me when I win.
Hence, you're bet is somewhat one-sided, I'll put my time into it, you
put your cash into it - I get $200/hr - so it's gunna cost big time :)
Remeber my original post. I didn't say this was going to be easy, I
just said I bet I could do !
So you put up the challenge and now you're backing down because you
concede that the evidence is against you ? What is it ?
G
Gianni Mariani
> "Gianni Mariani" <giann...@mariani.ws> wrote in message news:3CCC73A8...@mariani.ws...
>
>>All generalizations are wrong.
>
>
> LMAO. Even that one?
>
OK - you got me - what's LMAO ?
Thomas Krojer
news:PUGy8.10566$Ob6.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> > fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> > poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
>
> lol
My VB 1.0 Discs are dated 22th okt 1991 - about 11 year. How did you manage
it
to program 15 years?
Thomas
John W. Kennedy
>
> If C is such a dead language as you say.... then why would MS put money into
> the development of C#???
If Jazz is dead, why invest money in the career of Vanilla Ice?
If Sherlock Holmes pastiche is on the way out, why watch "Enterprise"?
If homosexuality can be cured, why read Harlequin romances?
If George W. Bush is a good and great man, why should one believe that
Shakespeare was the Earl of Oxford?
If this question makes any sense, why not?
--
John W. Kennedy
Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!
http://pws.prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood.html
Mike.
know: (quoted from <3CCD6592...@mariani.ws>)
> So you put up the challenge and now you're backing down because you
> concede that the evidence is against you ? What is it ?
The challenge never involved any money, and he's not backing down. You
are the one that put up the challenge, anyway:
(quoted from news:<3CCC60B8...@mohawksoft.com>):
>> Gianni Mariani wrote:
>>> However, I bet I could write an artificial example where Java would
>>> be faster than C. This is where some of the Java advoates confusion
>>> comes from.
>> Ok, you are on. You write an example where a java program should be
>> faster than a C program. I'll write the C version.
Now you probably weren't actually trying to set up an actual bet, but
you did say "I bet I could write ..." and mlw took you up on it; then
you said you didn't want to, basically.
Fair enough, let it drop if you don't have the time, but don't pretend
it was mlw that put up the challenge; you did, and /he/ accepted.
--
Mike.
Joona I Palaste
on comp.lang.c:
Laughing My Arse Off.
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
"'So called' means: 'There is a long explanation for this, but I have no
time to explain it here.'"
- JIPsoft
Gianni Mariani
> giann...@mariani.ws (Gianni Mariani) wanted comp.os.linux.advocacy to
> know: (quoted from <3CCD6592...@mariani.ws>)
>
>
>>So you put up the challenge and now you're backing down because you
>>concede that the evidence is against you ? What is it ?
>
>
> The challenge never involved any money, and he's not backing down. You
> are the one that put up the challenge, anyway:
>
Mike - you too - put up some money - stop hiding behind things I didn't say.
> (quoted from news:<3CCC60B8...@mohawksoft.com>):
>
>
>>>Gianni Mariani wrote:
>>
>
>>>>However, I bet I could write an artificial example where Java would
>>>>be faster than C. This is where some of the Java advoates confusion
>>>>comes from.
>>>
>
>>>Ok, you are on. You write an example where a java program should be
>>>faster than a C program. I'll write the C version.
>>
>
> Now you probably weren't actually trying to set up an actual bet, but
> you did say "I bet I could write ..." and mlw took you up on it; then
> you said you didn't want to, basically.
>
> Fair enough, let it drop if you don't have the time, but don't pretend
> it was mlw that put up the challenge; you did, and /he/ accepted.
I'll stick by what I said. If nobody pony's up some serious money then
the challenge remains uncontested. I'm not going to have to put serious
time into it so unless there is serious money in it I'd be crazy to do it.
If you read my post, I'm talking about why there is a misconception in
the Java community. mlw is basically sating they are all liars and I'm
basically saying that they are hopefull and there is plenty of work
being done which might actually make it true one day. There are
millions (if not billions) of dollars spent on these kind of optimizations.
Terry Austin
carpet if you don't.
Oh, and BTW, grow up. Nobody cares.
Terry Austin
Donovan Rebbechi
Did I miss something, is this a competition to see who can come up with the
stupidest reply to an obvious troll/joke ... ? Or are these stupid replies
posted by the same person who initiated the thread, as part of the
entertainment ?
Anyway, this entry isn't bad, but the guy who flamed and shouted in all-caps
appears to be the "winner" thus far.
--
Donovan
Donovan Rebbechi
Rubbish. You put up the challenge, he responded, you backed down.
But this post appears that it is an onerous task indeed to write java software
that performs reasonably well, while it's a very simple task to do the same
in C or C++ (or OCaml or a number of other languages) So much for the
"simplicity" of java, huh ?
--
Donovan
Gianni Mariani
> Gianni Mariani <giann...@mariani.ws> scribbled the following
> on comp.lang.c:
>
>>David Scarlett wrote:
>>
>>>"Gianni Mariani" <giann...@mariani.ws> wrote in message news:3CCC73A8...@mariani.ws...
>>>
>>>
>>>>All generalizations are wrong.
>>>
>>>
>>>LMAO. Even that one?
>>>
>>
>
>>OK - you got me - what's LMAO ?
>
>
> Laughing My Arse Off.
Yep, it's a piece of beauty.
Gianni Mariani
Hey keep out of it - I'm trying to make a buck ! Jeez :)
|{evin
At least keep it out of clbv.
--
Kevin
My kids seem to always be around, remove them to reply
directly to me.
Terry Austin
> I'll stick by what I said. If nobody pony's up some serious money
> then the challenge remains uncontested.
If you're not willing to pack up your claims, you're not worth
paying to program.
Now grow up. You're (all) acting like spoiled three year olds.
Terry Austin
Gianni Mariani
Terry .... I can see your somewhat aggrivated ...
calm down, so what it it's a little childish.
Have some fun sometime. If you don't like it don't read it.
Nobody is forcing you to.
Chill out a little.
Gianni Mariani
>
> Rubbish. You put up the challenge, he responded, you backed down.
We'll just have to disagree on the bet thing then !
.... unless your willing to pony up the cash ? :)
>
> But this post appears that it is an onerous task indeed to write java software
> that performs reasonably well, while it's a very simple task to do the same
> in C or C++ (or OCaml or a number of other languages) So much for the
> "simplicity" of java, huh ?
>
We agree that if your goal is performance, I would not reccomend writing
it in Java.
mjt
> iGadget wrote:
[snip]
>> And the C program only took 25 times as many lines to code, and 10-20 times
>> as long to debug :)
>>
>> I prefer C to Java in most ways (I feel much more 'in control'), but the
>> ease of design and debugging with all those lovely libraries... ahh...
> As I have said before, as long as performance, stability, resource utilization,
> platform consistency, flexibility, and interoperability are not concerns, yea,
> have at it. Java is your platform. Once you start thinking like a software
> engineer, you will see java is a big bad black hole.
Mark, you're making a blanket statement here.
dont get me wrong, i like C, C++, and Java.
but your assumption that C is somehow king
and Java is only for simple apps is all wrong.
tell that to all the people writing applications
for application servers such as websphere,
silverstream, bea, and so on. C is a great
systems language (what it was designed for).
java and c++ are great for application
development. be that as it may, choose the
best tool for the job.
--
+==================================
| M i c h a e l J. T o b l e r
| Authorship: "Inside Linux" ...
| "C++ Unleashed" ... "C++ How-To"
| Motocycling, Surfing, Skydiving
+==================================
mjt
> Gianni Mariani wrote:
>> I have 3 projects I'm late on, once they're done, you're on - that'l be
>> about 6 months from now.
>
> Oh please, like everyone else that says Java is in some way better than a
> native language. They claim it, but when push comes to shove, always have a
> list of excuses why they can't do it.
yep, the ones that say they cant do,
CANT DO IT - that's why they say it
cant be done. years ago, i would have
told you assembly is the way to go. me?
i can write any ol' app in assembly,
c(++), java, or any number of scripting
type languages ... just depends on the
requirements.
Gianni Mariani
FYI - this is what Terry sent to me ... yikes this guy needs an enema.
Terry Austin wrote:
> Since you are too dim to take a hint, I'll say it in small
> words: Stay out of my inbox. Do not email me again,
> ever, for any reason, or I will contact your ISP about
> harassment, and, if need be, block their mail server
> permanently at my firewall. And the fake headers
> and From: address won't help you, either.
>
> Now piss off.
Terry,
Sorry I offended you buddy.
But do chill out a little, you take things way too seriously.
Terry Austin
Dealt with, even ones who use fake headers.
You won't get another warning on that.
Gregory Pietsch
news:4e2f159f.0204...@posting.google.com...
> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
> not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
> explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
> as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
>
> To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked
> to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune
> 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
Huh? C *is* a low-level language. It's quite possible that the first Java
and VB compilers first translated the code into C and then compiled the C.
> C's biggest difficulty, as we all know, is the fact that it is by far
> one of the slowest languages in existance, especially when compared to
> more modern languages such as Java and C#. Although the reasons for
> this are varied, the main reasons seems to be the way C requires a
> programmer to laboriously work with chunks of memory.
How do you measure speed so that you know which language is faster than
which?
> Requiring a programmer to manipulate blocks of memory is a tedious way
> to program. This was satisfactory back in the early days of coding,
> but then again, so were punchcards. By using what are called
> "pointers" a C programmer is basically requiring the computer to do
> three sets of work rather than one. The first time requires the
> computer to duplicate whatever is stored in the memory space "pointed
> to" by the pointer. The second time requires it to perform the needed
> operation on this space. Finally the computer must delete the
> duplicate set and set the values of the original accordingly.
This is not the way pointers work. A pointer is merely the address of some
object. It is possible to refer to the object that a pointer points to. I'm
not going to compare pointers to punchcards because that it as silly as
comparing apples and oranges.
> Clearly this is a horrendous use of resources and the chief reason why
> C is so slow. When one looks at a more modern (and a more serious)
> programming language like Java, C# or - even better - Visual Basic
> that lacks such archaic coding styles, one will also note a serious
> speed increase over C.
Java, C#, and Visual Basic are all proprietary languages, or were at one
point. C at least is standardized.
> So what does this mean for the programming community? I think clearly
> that C needs to be abandonded. There are two candidates that would be
> a suitable replacement for it. Those are Java and Visual Basic.
I'm not going to tell you what language you should be coding in.
> Having programmed in both for many years, I believe that VB has the
> edge. Not only is it slightly faster than Java its also much easier to
> code in. I found C to be confusing, frightening and intimidating with
> its non-GUI-based coding style. Furthermore, I like to see the source
> code of the projects I work with. Java's source seems to be under the
> monopolistic thumb of Sun much the way that GCC is obscured from us by
> the marketing people at the FSF. Microsoft's "shared source" under
> which Visual Basic is released definately seems to be the most fair
> and reasonable of all the licenses in existance, with none of the
> harsh restrictions of the BSD license. It also lacks the GPLs
> requirement that anything coded with its tools becomes property of the
> FSF.
The C language predates GUI-based interfaces, although GUI-based toolkits
have been written for it. And does Microsoft provide the source code to your
Visual Basic compiler for you to freely modify and redistribute?
Two more problems with this:
1) The FSF has no marketing department. Any marketing they've had is by word
of mouth.
2) Where in the GPL does it say that anything coded with its tools becomes
the property of the FSF?
Gregory Pietsch
> I hope to see a switch from C to VB very soon. I've already spoken
> with various luminaries in the C coding world and most are eager to
> begin to transition. Having just gotten off the phone with Mr. Alan
> Cox, I can say that he is quite thrilled with the speed increases that
> will occur when the Linux kernel is completely rewritten in Visual
> Basic. Richard Stallman plans to support this, and hopes that the
> great Swede himself, Linux Torvaldis, won't object to renaming Linux
> to VB/Linux. Although not a C coder himself, I'm told that Slashdot's
> very own Admiral Taco will support this on his web site. Finally,
> Dennis Ritchie is excited about the switch!
>
> Thank you for your time. Happy coding.
>
> Egg Troll
ComWizz
> Thank you for being the only one in this entire group who actually sees the
> relationship between C and C#!!!
>
> "ComWizz" <com...@eircom.net> wrote in message
> news:ac446b6f.02042...@posting.google.com...
> > "LinuxFr33k" <ro...@linuxfr33k.com> wrote in message
> news:<yVKy8.81483$HH5....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>...
> > > If C is such a dead language as you say.... then why would MS put money
> into
> > > the development of C#???
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > news:4e2f159f.0204...@posting.google.com...
> > > > Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
> > > > not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
> > > > explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> > > > Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
> > > > as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
> > > >
> > > > To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked
> > > > to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune
> > > > 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> > > > fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> > > > poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
> > > >
Thx LinuxF33k(am I spelling your name right?), also, VB/Linux <---
This will never exsist, this obviously was some sort of joke.
Gianni Mariani
Terry,
My SMTP server run on IP 64.3.144.100 - you don't have to worry, only a
small handlful of people use this SMTP sever for outgoing traffic.
Please firewall it off if you really need to.
Cheers, have a nice life.
G
Vali Catina
> To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked
> to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune
> 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
Yes, of course you coded in Java before it has been invented, strange ...
While coding, do you use a computer ? :))
> So what does this mean for the programming community? I think clearly
> that C needs to be abandonded. There are two candidates that would be
> a suitable replacement for it. Those are Java and Visual Basic.
And tell this to all who write codes for signal processors,
microcontrollers and for all embeded systems; I would like to live that
long to see them writing DSP algorithms in Java or VB.
> Having programmed in both for many years, I believe that VB has the
> edge. Not only is it slightly faster than Java its also much easier to
> code in. I found C to be confusing, frightening and intimidating with
> its non-GUI-based coding style. Furthermore, I like to see the source
> code of the projects I work with. Java's source seems to be under the
> monopolistic thumb of Sun much the way that GCC is obscured from us by
> the marketing people at the FSF. Microsoft's "shared source" under
> which Visual Basic is released definately seems to be the most fair
> and reasonable of all the licenses in existance, with none of the
> harsh restrictions of the BSD license. It also lacks the GPLs
> requirement that anything coded with its tools becomes property of the
> FSF.
You are a big fan of Microsoft, aren't you? maybe they will give
you an award :))
mjt
[snip]
> How do you measure speed so that you know which language is faster than
> which?
put timers in the code ... we used to
do this in assembly language work, so
we knew if some code rework actually
saved us some CPU cycles or not.
> This is not the way pointers work. A pointer is merely the address of some
> object. It is possible to refer to the object that a pointer points to. I'm
the pointer is a variable that holds
the address (or possibly no address)
to which it points.
[snip]
Charlton Wilbur
(in part)
> How do you measure speed so that you know which language is faster than
> which?
> 2) Where in the GPL does it say that anything coded with its tools becomes
> the property of the FSF?
Come now, Gregory, if you try to inject sense into this discussion it
will dry up and go away, and we'll all have to get some work done....
Charlton
Jadex
And who tell this guy that VBasic is better that C? Some kind of
Microsoft Story Teller?. Did any of you who said that C is dead
realizes that even under MS Windows there are a lot of things that can
be done ONLY with C ( Visual C++ in this case)?
Well I think that when u finish answering all this questions u will
find that C is still the best language ever made and by the way nor
Java neither Visual Basic are low level languages.
#define FLAME
By the way VB SUCKS!!!
#undef FLAME
Matt Dee
He's just taking what (educated) people say about VB (and Java/C#) and
turning it round onto C - making the point that VB is crap, NOT C. It's a
joke people! Jeez, I stop lurking in this group for a month or so and look
what happens.......
:-)
SyntheToonz
"mlw" <ma...@mohawksoft.com> wrote in message
news:3CCB4D22...@mohawksoft.com...
> Jan wrote:
> > On Sun, 28 Apr 2002 01:25:28 +0200, Ben Pfaff wrote:
> > > eggt...@yahoo.com (Egg Troll) writes:
> > >> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
not
> > >> to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
> > >> explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> > >> Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so
bold
> > >> as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
> > >
> > > for April Fools Day.
> >
> > Good joke though :-)
>
> The really sad part of it is that much of the discussion is used seriously
by
> Java advocates. I have heard the java zealots actually say that java is
> typically faster than C or C++. At that point I shake my head an assume
nothing
> can be said to someone so confused.
C is certainly outdated. Plenty of other letters follow it in the
alphabet. I'm banking on Q or maybe T.
Programmer Dude
> Do ANY of you recognise satire when you see it?
[raises hand]
--
|_ CJSonnack <Ch...@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|
Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.
John Sanders
BCLP. The next letter is 'L' then 'P'.
Neil Butterworth
news:1059aa7f.02043...@posting.google.com...
> BCLP. The next letter is 'L' then 'P'.
Actually, it's BCPL.
NeilB
mjt
it's not a joke ... it's not satire ...
... nothing in here could possibly
considered a joke or satirical.
ghl
news:2dEz8.3179$mj5.20...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> Matt Dee wrote:
>
> > Do ANY of you recognise satire when you see it?
> >
> > He's just taking what (educated) people say about VB (and Java/C#) and
> > turning it round onto C - making the point that VB is crap, NOT C. It's
a
> > joke people! Jeez, I stop lurking in this group for a month or so and
look
> > what happens.......
>
> it's not a joke ... it's not satire ...
> ... nothing in here could possibly
> considered a joke or satirical.
--
Gary
John Sanders
> > alphabet. I'm banking on Q or maybe T.
>
> BCLP. The next letter is 'L' then 'P'.
Sorry, that's BCPL. I'm dyslexic.
Rocke Robertson
Vali Catina wrote:
> > To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked
> > to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune
> > 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for
> > fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how
> > poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
>
> Yes, of course you coded in Java before it has been invented, strange ...
> While coding, do you use a computer ? :))
>
> > So what does this mean for the programming community? I think clearly
> > that C needs to be abandonded. There are two candidates that would be
> > a suitable replacement for it. Those are Java and Visual Basic.
>
> And tell this to all who write codes for signal processors,
> microcontrollers and for all embeded systems; I would like to live that
> long to see them writing DSP algorithms in Java or VB.
Long live FORTH!!!
>
>
> > Having programmed in both for many years, I believe that VB has the
> > edge. Not only is it slightly faster than Java its also much easier to
> > code in. I found C to be confusing, frightening and intimidating with
> > its non-GUI-based coding style. Furthermore, I like to see the source
> > code of the projects I work with. Java's source seems to be under the
> > monopolistic thumb of Sun much the way that GCC is obscured from us by
> > the marketing people at the FSF. Microsoft's "shared source" under
> > which Visual Basic is released definately seems to be the most fair
> > and reasonable of all the licenses in existance, with none of the
> > harsh restrictions of the BSD license. It also lacks the GPLs
> > requirement that anything coded with its tools becomes property of the
> > FSF.
>
> You are a big fan of Microsoft, aren't you? maybe they will give
> you an award :))
--
Rocke Robertson
NCS/GTIS/PWGSC
700 Montreal Rd.
Roc...@tiger.pwgsc.gc.ca
(613) 748-4604
Stephen H
and succedes or fails to deliver in response to that purpose.
If a reason for the creation of a language recedes then so does the
need for the language. If however a newer language comes along that does
the same job it does not necessarily follow that it is automatically better.
C++ and Java are claimed to be better than C but for what? and I ask is it
possible that C because it is better defined is better for jobs that require
precise behaviour.
Stephen H
Dim St Thomas
> Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or
> not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will
> explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that
> Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold
> as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
It wouldn't be the first time C was "retired". There is a common
misconception that C was invented in 1972 by Dennis Ritchie.
The truth is that it was actually invented about 100 years
earlier by an obscure religious cult in Texas. Their leader
had a vision of machines that could be programmed. He instructed
his followers to develop a programming language for these
machines so that his cult would be able to use them to take
over the world.
The programming language they produced was
the original version of the C language. People living near
the cult heard stories of how they were going to take over
the world, got scared and attacked them, raizing their
settlement to the ground. Only three members of the cult
survived.
They wanted to pass their knowledge of C
programming on to future generations, but were too scared
to write anything down[1]. Instead they invented dozens
of campfire stories, containing all the information
required to program in C, that they taught to their
children. Rather than inventing C in 1972, Dennis Ritchie
simply reconstructed the language from his many long
nights round the campfire spent listening to folk stories.
Dim
[1] There is a legend that one of the survivors managed
to save manuscripts that detailed the original C language
specification and also answers to common homework problems.
It is said that he buried these in the Nevada desert.
After the cult was destroyed it was never thought that C
would ever be resurected, which is why these manuscripts
were known as the "Dead C Scrolls".
ke...@hplb.hpl.hp.com
dimst...@yahoo.com (Dim St Thomas) writes:
> After the cult was destroyed it was never thought that C
> would ever be resurected, which is why these manuscripts
> were known as the "Dead C Scrolls".
Why is there water on my screen now? The rain's not due until lunchtime.
--
Chris "electric hedgehog" Dollin
C FAQs at: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/comp/comp.lang.c.html
C welcome: http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc.html
Lee Sau Dan
Gianni> I can tell you what I'll be looking to do. It will be a
Gianni> computationally intensive app, somthing that has alot of
Gianni> branches. I'll probably pick a P4 as the benchmark
Gianni> machine because of it's deep pipeline and I'll find things
Gianni> that require the pipeline to flush alot that the
Gianni> c-compiler is unable to optimize around because it does
Gianni> not know the dynamic nature of the execution.
A trap here for you: in what language do you think your JVM (be it
JIT, Hot-spot or whatever) is written in?
If it is written in C, then what prevents people from writing a very
specialized JVM, so specialized that it only executes/emulates the
Java program that you suggested above? This specialized JVM would not
allow arbitrary Java programs (byte code) to be executed. Rather, it
has a built-in or hard-coded Java program, and this special JVM will
only run this program. It would use exactly the same techniques (JIT,
Hot-spot or whatever) as your JVM to execute the built-in byte codes.
Then, this specialized JVM, a C program, can theoretically run no
slower than your Java program, if not faster because it is specialized
for a specific task.
Gianni> Then, if the jit compiler is worth anything, you're toast.
Gianni> Again, I'm no Java advocate, I'm just saying there
Gianni> exceptions.
Gianni> And besides, since I've only written 300 lines of java 6
Gianni> years ago, It'll probably take me a while to figure it all
Gianni> out.
Now, we have to doubt your *practical* experience with Java.
Gianni> Remember, I've set the bar very low - all I need is to
Gianni> find a single example that can be faster than a c program
Gianni> that does the same thing and I win the bet.
If the JVM you're using is written in C, then you'll certain lose, for
the reasons explained above.
Now, how about using GCJ for the compilation?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Lee Sau Dan
Thomas> "Mark" <move...@nycap.rr.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
Thomas> news:PUGy8.10566$Ob6.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
>> While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for >
>> fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see
>> how > poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level
>> languages.
>>
>> I think this says it all lol
Thomas> My VB 1.0 Discs are dated 22th okt 1991 - about 11
Thomas> year. How did you manage it to program 15 years?
And he claims that he has 10 years of experiences programming in Java.
Haha..
It's so obvious that that post is just something nonsense.
Lee Sau Dan
>> To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently
>> asked to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for
>> a Fortune 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I
>> have coded in VB for fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I
>> was stunned to see how poorly C fared compared to these two,
>> more low-level languages.
Gregory> Huh? C *is* a low-level language. It's quite possible
Gregory> that the first Java and VB compilers first translated the
Gregory> code into C and then compiled the C.
This argument is flawed.
Any program in machine code can be translated into an VB program
(though not necessarily readable) that performs the equivalent
operations. So, VB is even lower-level than machine code?
That language A can be compiled into language B doesn't reveal
anything about which is higher-level. It only shows that language B
is at least as expressive and powerful as language A. And that's all
it says.
Gregory> Java, C#, and Visual Basic are all proprietary languages,
Gregory> or were at one point. C at least is standardized.
C was invented and then evolved together with Unix. And Unix was
proprietary.
Yes, C is standardized by some neutral bodies now. But so are Common
Lisp, Scheme, Prolog, ...
Todd
You have WAY too much time on your hands.
Gianni Mariani
Without a doubt :)
>
>
>
> Gianni> Remember, I've set the bar very low - all I need is to
> Gianni> find a single example that can be faster than a c program
> Gianni> that does the same thing and I win the bet.
>
> If the JVM you're using is written in C, then you'll certain lose, for
> the reasons explained above.
You want to bet ?
>
>
> Now, how about using GCJ for the compilation?
Cheers
G
Thomas Stegen
>
>
>
> Lee Sau Dan wrote
>>
>> If the JVM you're using is written in C, then you'll certain lose, for
>> the reasons explained above.
>
>
> You want to bet ?
>
I won't take you up on that challange beacuse I can't be asked.
But I will happily bet on this, because there is no way you can
win. Repeat: There is no way you can win.
The reason is simple, You will be using a JVM without dedicated
support for your program. The other "contender" wil be using a
dedicated JVM for the program.
--
Thomas.