DIR Fundamentals in the UK
Huw Porter
taught by Andy Kerslake and assisted behind the video camera by John
Grogan. And it was intense. Over 24 hours of instruction packed in
to a weekend-and-an-evening, with over four hours in the water.
But - The 'DIR Baseball Bat' *really* couldn't be further from the
truth. Obviously, Andy and John do believe that there is a right way
- and recommendations were made, many things were discussed, 'The Bar'
was shown, but harsh criticism came exclusively from people talking
about *their own* performance on the video.
Having done a lot of research over the past couple of years, there was
nothing much in the academics that was a surprise, but my two
team-mates were basically new to the whole set of concepts, and found
it mindblowing.
My kit passed (at this level) easily enough. Yep, even the homebrew
bp/wing. :-) But then I've been heading in this direction for a
couple of years. I lengthened the crotch strap, retied a couple of
knots and repositioned a couple of D-rings slightly, but that was it.
Contrary to popular belief, there is nothing on my rig that says
'Halcyon' (OK, apart from gaiters ;-)) but it is adequately
streamlined, and there is nothing there preventing me doing the
skills.
The video really is the key, and there is no arguing with it - you
watch what you do, and you think 'I need to do that better!' The
review on Saturday was a decidedly sobering experience, none of us
looked as good as we thought we did, none of us were as horizontal in
the water as we thought we were.
My main realisation of the weekend is that it is all about the team.
When (my) focus shifted from trying to demonstrate skills to the
instructor/camera, to trying to do everything as a team things went
much better. And it all works...
And I managed to raise my game enough on Sunday to pass. :-) As far
as skills go, with the upgrade to a twinset (and assuming I can do a
twins shutdown as well as the single drill) I could try for Tech 1.
And I didn't even fall over in the car park. ;-)
Cheers,
Huw
Steve Jones
news:8f80c64f.03093...@posting.google.com
>> And I managed to raise my game enough on Sunday to pass. :-) As far
> as skills go, with the upgrade to a twinset (and assuming I can do a
> twins shutdown as well as the single drill) I could try for Tech 1.
>
><snipped>
Congrats Huw. All you need to do now is find out how to transport a twin
set on the rail network, or get Stelios to hire you a bigger car.
Steve
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Imorital
> taught by Andy Kerslake and assisted behind the video camera by John
> Grogan. And it was intense. Over 24 hours of instruction packed in
> to a weekend-and-an-evening, with over four hours in the water.
Huw, the course sounds most interesting (as it your web-site, BTW). Thanks
for the post.
> But - The 'DIR Baseball Bat' *really* couldn't be further from the
> truth.
That's interesting - are you saying that it would be possible to pass the
course using an OMS-bungeed wing?
<snip>
> The video really is the key, and there is no arguing with it - you
> watch what you do, and you think 'I need to do that better!' The
> review on Saturday was a decidedly sobering experience, none of us
> looked as good as we thought we did, none of us were as horizontal in
> the water as we thought we were.
The camera idea sounds like a good experience - and perhaps something that
other agencies/instrictors could look at using as a training aid.
Cheers
Matt.
Nigel Hewitt
> The camera idea sounds like a good experience - and perhaps something
> that other agencies/instrictors could look at using as a training aid.
It's getting more common. I expect we can ensure we have cameras
on hand for the UKRS#1 Rescue course with the added bonus of not
only seeing your own errors but being pilloried on the web.
I keep looking at computer dumps of my attempts to do a really
nice free ascent and wishing they looked like the blob ones. It's
the same thing really. <sigh> The record does not improve over
time like the memories do.
nigelH
<note to self>Take bulk eraser if going near Frank.</note>
Huw Porter
news:blc442$aagpt$1...@ID-203763.news.uni-berlin.de
> > Well, I was back in Portland over the weekend for DIR-Fundamentals,
> > taught by Andy Kerslake and assisted behind the video camera by John
> > Grogan. And it was intense. Over 24 hours of instruction packed in
> > to a weekend-and-an-evening, with over four hours in the water.
>
> Huw, the course sounds most interesting (as it your web-site, BTW). Thanks
> for the post.
>
> > But - The 'DIR Baseball Bat' *really* couldn't be further from the
> > truth.
>
> That's interesting - are you saying that it would be possible to pass the
> course using an OMS-bungeed wing?
Well, no - there are a few basic equipment requirements which are not
negociable, bungee wings are one of them. You do have to go along with
the basic premise. :-)
But you could for example turn up in an OMS single bladder wing up to 80
lbs lift with the bungees removed. And if you can do the skills (the
video never lies) then you would pass. :-) And if you wanted to
discuss why they require no bungee, they happily would, without bashing
you over the head with anything. ;-)
> <snip>
>
> > The video really is the key, and there is no arguing with it - you
> > watch what you do, and you think 'I need to do that better!' The
> > review on Saturday was a decidedly sobering experience, none of us
> > looked as good as we thought we did, none of us were as horizontal in
> > the water as we thought we were.
>
> The camera idea sounds like a good experience - and perhaps something that
> other agencies/instrictors could look at using as a training aid.
Yep, it was worth it for the video viewing alone.
Cheers,
Huw
--
http://www.huwporter.com
Huw Porter
news:c24f61908c52521f8f4...@mygate.mailgate.org
> "Huw Porter" <huwp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8f80c64f.03093...@posting.google.com
>
> >> And I managed to raise my game enough on Sunday to pass. :-) As far
> > as skills go, with the upgrade to a twinset (and assuming I can do a
> > twins shutdown as well as the single drill) I could try for Tech 1.
> >
> ><snipped>
>
> Congrats Huw. All you need to do now is find out how to transport a twin
> set on the rail network, or get Stelios to hire you a bigger car.
I got funny enough looks taking my stage on the train that time! Can
you imagine walking up the aisle looking for a seat in a twinset... :-)
Cheers,
Huw
--
http://www.huwporter.com
Bardo
>
> > The video really is the key, and there is no arguing with it - you
> > watch what you do, and you think 'I need to do that better!' The
> > review on Saturday was a decidedly sobering experience, none of us
> > looked as good as we thought we did, none of us were as horizontal in
> > the water as we thought we were.
>
> The camera idea sounds like a good experience - and perhaps something that
> other agencies/instrictors could look at using as a training aid.
Hehe. It's something Frank does too with his 'Twinset Fundamentals' course.
Myself and three others suffered the humilation of being filmed in a pool
two weeks ago whilst trying to frog kick backwards - suffice to see we just
looked like a group of lemmings continuously clonking our heads on the side
of the pool!!!! ;-)
That said, it was an excellent learning tool. You naturally assume that your
position in the water is horizontal but actually seeing yourself on video
soon shatters this illusion. Whilst I'm pleased to say that I didn't look
totally hopeless (and I'm sure Frank will comment on this!), the whole
experience did serve as a sobering reminder that you never stop learning!
It's a shame that I can share the video with you guys - then you could all
have a good larf at our expense!
BTW - I did manage to complete my IANTD/TDI Advanced Nitrox + Deco course!
Thanks to Frank and Zak for an entertaining couple of weekends! I can
remember the last time I was so knackered/challenged/humilated!!! :-)
Eddie
> Well, I was back in Portland over the weekend for DIR-Fundamentals,
DIR Fundamentals????? What is it???? Something to do with grassy
knolls??????
Eddie
:-))))))))
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 23/09/03
Lazarus X
<huwp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Imorital" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>news:blc442$aagpt$1...@ID-203763.news.uni-berlin.de
>
>> > Well, I was back in Portland over the weekend for DIR-Fundamentals,
>> > taught by Andy Kerslake and assisted behind the video camera by John
>> > Grogan. And it was intense. Over 24 hours of instruction packed in
>> > to a weekend-and-an-evening, with over four hours in the water.
>>
>> Huw, the course sounds most interesting (as it your web-site, BTW). Thanks
>> for the post.
>>
>> > But - The 'DIR Baseball Bat' *really* couldn't be further from the
>> > truth.
>>
>> That's interesting - are you saying that it would be possible to pass the
>> course using an OMS-bungeed wing?
>
>Well, no - there are a few basic equipment requirements which are not
>negociable, bungee wings are one of them. You do have to go along with
>the basic premise. :-)
So you are saying that turning up with an Inspiration is probably a
bad thing?
Laz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A foolproof method for sculpting an Elephant:
First, get a huge block of marble. Then, chip away
everything that doesn't look like an Elephant.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Change "nospam" to "ntlworld" to reply.
Bardo
"Eddie" <Ed...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:blc7h4$9bj$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
>
> "Huw Porter" <huwp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8f80c64f.03093...@posting.google.com...
> > Well, I was back in Portland over the weekend for DIR-Fundamentals,
>
> DIR Fundamentals????? What is it???? Something to do with grassy
> knolls??????
DIR = Doing It Right
A system of diving developed my American cave divers that aims to simplify
and standardise kit configuration. It teaches good team work, preparation
and awareness and is very much a holistic system - ie. simply having your
kit configured in a DIR fashion does not make you a DIR diver!
DIR-F / DIR-Fundamentals = entry level course designed to teach you the
fundamentals of the DIR system. It teaches you about kit configuration as
well as the skills needed to start you on your way down the DIR path.
Bardo
"Lazarus X" <laza...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:5c16b654ff958652...@news.teranews.com...
> On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:13:10 +0000 (UTC), "Huw Porter"
> <huwp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"Imorital" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> >news:blc442$aagpt$1...@ID-203763.news.uni-berlin.de
> >
> >> > Well, I was back in Portland over the weekend for DIR-Fundamentals,
> >> > taught by Andy Kerslake and assisted behind the video camera by John
> >> > Grogan. And it was intense. Over 24 hours of instruction packed in
> >> > to a weekend-and-an-evening, with over four hours in the water.
> >>
> >> Huw, the course sounds most interesting (as it your web-site, BTW).
Thanks
> >> for the post.
> >>
> >> > But - The 'DIR Baseball Bat' *really* couldn't be further from the
> >> > truth.
> >>
> >> That's interesting - are you saying that it would be possible to pass
the
> >> course using an OMS-bungeed wing?
> >
> >Well, no - there are a few basic equipment requirements which are not
> >negociable, bungee wings are one of them. You do have to go along with
> >the basic premise. :-)
>
> So you are saying that turning up with an Inspiration is probably a
> bad thing?
LOL! Especially if it's got a 'Halcyon' logo stuck on it! ;-)
Nigel Hewitt
> I got funny enough looks taking my stage on the train that time! Can
> you imagine walking up the aisle looking for a seat in a twinset...
> :-)
I've done it on a motorbike and a bus.
Yes you get funny looks getting on a bus
in twins but that's their problem not yours.
nigelH
Alasdair Allan
> Imorital wrote:
> > The camera idea sounds like a good experience - and perhaps something
> > that other agencies/instrictors could look at using as a training aid.
>
> It's getting more common. I expect we can ensure we have cameras
> on hand for the UKRS#1 Rescue course with the added bonus of not
> only seeing your own errors but being pilloried on the web.
MPEG, MPEG, MPEG.... Wheee!
Al.
Lazarus X
I tried to put my Halcyon wing on it. Surprise surprise, the two were
incompatible ;-)
Anders Arnholm
> But - The 'DIR Baseball Bat' *really* couldn't be further from the
> truth. Obviously, Andy and John do believe that there is a right way
I'm sure that the DIR Baseball bat is aimed that the die hard
rec.scuda enething else will kill you people.
Congratualtions on the course, I'm sure you learned a loot of good
things during the weekend.
/ Anders
--
http://anders.arnholm.nu/ Keep on Balping
Eddie
"Bardo" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:blc86l$aire5$1...@ID-115313.news.uni-berlin.de...
> A system of diving developed my American cave divers that aims to simplify
> and standardise kit configuration. It teaches good team work, preparation
> and awareness and is very much a holistic system - ie. simply having your
> kit configured in a DIR fashion does not make you a DIR diver!
Ahhhh! Just as I thought. A little to do with grassy knolls and the modern
tendency to follow a team approach and take any individuality out of our
sport in the chase for the good of the whole. Is T Bliar a member of your
org? ;-))))))
Ed
Zak
>
>
>BTW - I did manage to complete my IANTD/TDI Advanced Nitrox + Deco course!
>Thanks to Frank and Zak for an entertaining couple of weekends! I can
>remember the last time I was so knackered/challenged/humilated!!! :-)
>
<cough> the boy done well ;)
Practise practise practise !
Dale Gray
diving in Norway???????
"Eddie" <Ed...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:blcfso$b46$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
Iain Smith
> correct for ice diving in Norway???????
Well, two of the more experienced participants on the central DIR list are,
in fact, Scandinavian (?Swedish) ice divers, so it would appear that they,
at least, find no great problem with transferring the system between those
environments.
What did you have in mind as being problematic?
Iain
Dale Gray
ice diving in Norway.
It was merely a flippant way of laughing at the concept of only one kit
configuration being correct for all applications. This is obviously false.
Take for example British Cave Diving.
DIR may laugh at the kit set up of British Cave Divers, but theirs doesn't
work in the environment. So if there is one exception there are more.
--
Dale
http://www.gray.at
"Iain Smith" <iainm...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:f5meb.3203$RU4....@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...
Iain Smith
> only one kit configuration being correct for all
> applications. This is obviously false.
It's also incorrect to suggest that DIR promotes such.
> Take for example British Cave Diving.
>
> DIR may laugh at the kit set up of British Cave Divers, but
> theirs doesn't work in the environment. So if there is one
> exception there are more.
You mean, of course, "may be". OTOH, British cave diving is the example that
gets repeatedly trotted out as an example of DIR "not working" (although I
am lead to believe that certain elements within the CDG are an awful lot
closer to DIR than the detractors would like to admit. Unfortunately, I lack
the detailed knowledge to discuss that). Maybe there are other situations
where significant variation from DIR is essential. Not sure what they are,
though.
Iain
Alasdair Allan
> Maybe there are other situations where significant variation from DIR is
> essential. Not sure what they are, though.
Err, wreck diving off a boat? Thats pretty much the obvious one.
Al.
Simon
> work in the environment. So if there is one exception there are more.
I've done DIR fundamentals and am pretty much DIR.
I don't really care what the CDG do, and would definitely not comment
on it as I know nothing about that kind of sump diving (or cave diving
for that matter) - which I am sure you will agree is pretty
specialist. There is a DIR sidemaount system apparently, but I don't
know the details.
All I can say is.... DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ ON THE
INTERNET!
I have found most real DIR divers (and to be DIR you need GUE
training, having a long hose and shouting a lot does not qualify) to
be more open minded about diving than their critics. For instance,
Martin Lorenzo (one of my DIR-F instructors) has the greatest respect
(other than his hand over hand ascent technique ;o)) for John Bennett.
Personnally, I had done around 400 dives and had certs from PADI, ANDI
and IANTD up to Trimix when I did DIF-F. Had also done the whole
stupid diving thing e.g. 60M full penetration air dives with single
tanks etc. I've dived regularily with CCR divers (including
homebuilders).
I do not believe that DIR is the only way or that someone who is not
DIR is unsafe. However, I do believe (actually, I'll go as far a
saying 'know') that someone who is DIR (again, has to have GUE
training) is likely to be safer and more skilled than someone of an
equivalent dive experience who is not... which is what turned me on to
the whole thing in the first place i.e. feeling rather humble in the
water when diving with someone with significatly less 'experience'
than me, but had done Tech 1.
Outside of cave diving, GUE is probably the only agency that will
teach you to fin properly, a fairly fundamental (excuse the pun) skill
overlooked by pretty much every other (non-cave specific) agency.
Anyway, DIR is not a religion, it is just diving. The freaks annoy me
as much as anyone... well, maybe more because it reflects on me now.
PS: Huw, sounds like you had a similar experience to what we did in
Sydney. Good isn't it!
Iain Smith
Err, clearly not, given that virtually all diving in the UK by the various
DIR groups is wreck diving off boats. Not to mention somewhat bigger
projects like the Britannic.
Try again?
Iain
Dale Gray
As the only bit about DIR that annoys anyone with free will is that it is
their opinion that they are write and everyone else is wrong.
--
Dale
http://www.gray.at
"Simon" <snau...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:58e1304b.03093...@posting.google.com...
Iain Smith
> INTERNET!
>
> I have found most real DIR divers (and to be DIR you need GUE
> training
Simon,
I'm glad those two sentences came one after the other. GUE training _helps_,
it is not mandatory. DIR was around before GUE was. It's just like Halcyon
kit - it is not incompatible with DIR and can help a great deal. But it
isn't a prerequisite.
Iain
Iain Smith
> So what you are saying is that you agree with me.
>
> As the only bit about DIR that annoys anyone with free will
> is that it is
> their opinion that they are write and everyone else is wrong.
Dale,
If you do not believe that you are right to dive the way you dive, why are
you doing it? By definition if you believe that you are right then to a
greater or lesser extent everyone else is wrong.
Iain
Dale Gray
Diving System. Is it only me that can see the problem?
Isn't it fortunate that most American Cave Dive sites have deep water
entries, or they would have banned releasable weights as well.
I have 2 kit set ups (3 if you count the set I dive in as a PADI DM - so my
kit matches the students)
I have my open water kit, which is back mounted, with shoulder breaks in the
harness, releasable weight belt, though double bucked to reduce mistakes and
has 2nd inflation system (i.e. suit and wing) - it has bungee but please
don't start that argument.
I have my cave set, which is side mounts, solid harness, weight blocks as
part of the harness (the only way to release is 10 mins with a very sharp
knife) and no 2nd inflation (i.e. just suit)
It is horses for courses, change the environment you change your kit. If you
are incapable of handling a kit change then retrain until you are or stay
out of the other environment.
SO AMERICAN CAVE DIVERS GO HOME
--
Dale
http://www.gray.at
"Iain Smith" <iainm...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9Eteb.3413$RU4....@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...
Unknown
>
>I have found most real DIR divers (and to be DIR you need GUE
>training, having a long hose and shouting a lot does not qualify) to
>be more open minded about diving than their critics. For instance,
>Martin Lorenzo (one of my DIR-F instructors) has the greatest respect
>(other than his hand over hand ascent technique ;o)) for John Bennett.
>
>Personnally, I had done around 400 dives and had certs from PADI, ANDI
>and IANTD up to Trimix when I did DIF-F. Had also done the whole
>stupid diving thing e.g. 60M full penetration air dives with single
>tanks etc. I've dived regularily with CCR divers (including
>homebuilders).
>
Ooh goody, can I do a DIR course with the Inspiration then?
Pete S.
Iain Smith
> an American Cave Diving System. Is it only me that can see
> the problem?
Dale - if you want to discuss something, it helps to know enough about it
not to make a fool of yourself. DIR is _not_ a "cave diving system". It's a
diving system which can be applied to (virtually) every environment. I'll
conceed CDG-type diving as I know very little about it. However, to suggest
that DIR doesn't work for UK wreck diving is simply wrong.
> Isn't it fortunate that most American Cave Dive sites have
> deep water entries, or they would have banned releasable
> weights as well.
Releasable weights is a topic of itself. The only thing I can ditch on my
DIR-compliant rig is my canister. Fortunately I don't need to as I'm
entirely capable of swimming the entire set up. The moment you start doing
any significant amount of deco, I believe that ditchable weight becomes a
serious health hazard.
> It is horses for courses, change the environment you change
> your kit.
Absolutely. But what on earth is wrong with a standard basis of which to
build everything else. Consistency can never be anything other than
desirable.
> If you are incapable of handling a kit change then retrain
> until you are or stay out of the other environment.
>
> SO AMERICAN CAVE DIVERS GO HOME
And British bigots open your eyes and minds.
Iain
Dale Gray
1. environment (horses for courses)
2. personal choice (you have to be comfortable and confident)
3. your buddy if applicable (if you feel a buddy is required then your
buddy has to be able to handle your kit - if they can't your diving solo)
I also believe that any situation should be approached with an open mind,
having done all the research and training possible, but in the end you make
a decision and you live or die by it.
Hence I have made decisions that I am comfortable with, my advice is to make
your own, not follow someone else's. If you don't feel capable of viewing
all the options then you should dive with an instructor until you are
--
Dale
http://www.gray.at
"Iain Smith" <iainm...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:HSteb.3418$RU4....@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...
Dale Gray
But in my humble uninformed opinion, any system that says it has all the
answers only stops its followers from thinking for themselves.
This is the only thing wrong about DIR. In fairness it the only thing wrong
with all the training agencies, it is just that DIR is the most vocal so
gets the slagging
--
Dale
http://www.gray.at
"Iain Smith" <iainm...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:giueb.3430$RU4....@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...
Bardo
<Pete S.> wrote in message
news:hurknvsobnaav3vbg...@4ax.com...
Try it and see what they say when you turn up at a DIR-F course with your
turtle, Pete - you could sell tickets to something that entertaining! ;-)
Nigel Hewitt
> Well, I was back in Portland over the weekend for DIR-Fundamentals,
It was quite nice to be able to talk sense on DIR for
a while but we passed closing time on the zoo and the
animals are out.
<sigh>
Like a bunch of people I think the DIR holistic
approach to team/gear/gas has its place but some
of its supporters are over zealous and enjoy shouting
'stroke' at anything that can be seen to divert a
fraction from holy writ. While they are loose on the
web they are the loudest cry and they 'own' DIR so
the cool calm voice will never be heard. I can quite
understand people fighting back.
nigelh
stroke with a shovel
Nigel Hewitt
> <Pete S.> wrote
>>
>> Ooh goody, can I do a DIR course with the Inspiration then?
>
> Try it and see what they say when you turn up at a DIR-F course with
> your turtle, Pete - you could sell tickets to something that
> entertaining! ;-)
Don't be mean. They thought about my inverted rig
carefully before they said they couldn't see how
it could work on the course. Don't mistake GUE for
the manic stroke shouters on rec.scuba
nigelH
Frank Bruce
news:bldseb$fhc$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
> But in my humble uninformed opinion, any system that says it has all the
> answers only stops its followers from thinking for themselves.
Then you _aren't_ talking about DIR, but the personallities that you have
come into contact with and ego's involved. Firstly I'm not DIR - I'm an
Inspiration mixed gas diver and Inspiration Instuctor. That being said I
teach a Twinset-F course (you'll note the similarity in the name to DIR-F).
This last two weekends I taught this integrated into IANTD & TDI Adv Nitrox
and TDI Deco Procedures.
There are equipment requirements; these are 18l backgas and 5l stage.
Needless to say four very different twinsets turned up, hoses routed
differently, inverted set, bungee wings & BCDs you name it... it was there.
They left with four very similar looking rigs - not because I dictated what
you must do - but because I took the time and explained the failure points,
reasons for eqipment choices and why things go where they do. They thought
about it and then they made the changes they wanted to. They adjusted and
balanced the rigs and completed skills and fin techniques none thought they
could do - two of them had never managed a valve shutdown on the previous
setup, managed with ease in sub 45 seconds, and four solo divers very much
became a team.
> This is the only thing wrong about DIR. In fairness it the only thing
wrong
> with all the training agencies, it is just that DIR is the most vocal so
> gets the slagging
Don't blame the agencies, for _cheap_ instruction running to minimum times
and costs - you get exactly what you are prepared to pay for.
> Dale
Jason
> You mean, of course, "may be". OTOH, British cave diving is the example that
> gets repeatedly trotted out as an example of DIR "not working" (although I
> am lead to believe that certain elements within the CDG are an awful lot
> closer to DIR than the detractors would like to admit. Unfortunately, I lack
I would be very surprised to find any members of the CDG diving without
helmets and helmet lights for a start. Much of British cave diving uses
sidemounts, so forget the long hose around the neck. Some people don't
have any provision for being able to share air through restrictions.
Jason
--
http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for Aussie diving reports including
the wrecks of the SS Yongala, Lady Bowen and the HMAS Swan
Jason
> Err, clearly not, given that virtually all diving in the UK by the
> various DIR groups is wreck diving off boats. Not to mention somewhat
> bigger projects like the Britannic.
And how many DIR groups are there actually in the UK? And what sort of
diving are they doing? From what I've read, it's not the DIR groups who
are doing the really adventurous stuff over here. They're limiting
themselves to about 70m with relatively short bottom times. In short,
fairly bog standard trimix diving of the sort that many on the group do.
Several of them also got bent last year following DIR deco procedures.
Makes you wonder if the colder water has got anything to do with that. Or
the fact that the guys over here aren't all superfit, triathlon runners.
But the issue isn't whether you can use the methods. It's whether they're
optimal. Millions of boat dives have been done over the years using the
bog standard reg, octopus, BCD, single tank, weightbelt setup. But it's
not DIR, so by implication it's the wrong way to do it. That's what comes
of choosing a deliberately confrontational name for your methods.
The fact that it originated from cave diving, and deep cave diving at that,
must bias some of the methods. If you started out as a wreck diver, I
don't think you would do everything exactly the same. For me, the obvious
difference between the two is that in a cave, you're kitting up either in
flat water, or on dry land. There are people around to help you. On the
deep stuff there are safety divers in the water to help you. Getting in
and out of your kit isn't a priority at all.
On a UK dive boat, there's usually no crew apart from the skipper. You may
have to dekit in the water, in a current, in a swell, with force 4/5 chop.
Then you have to pass your kit up. Or you might be first up the ladder,
have no-one to help you and have to get out of your kit fast to help your
buddy. Often the benches aren't very good either.
The breakless harness and the round steel bottomed cylinders with no
boots, which actually very few Americans use in the sea, really don't
help. And I've watched people who swear by the system struggle to get out
of their kit. Usually it's comical, sometimes it's dangerous.
Other DIR methods haven't survived the UK wreck diving test. Very few
people still rear mount their reels. And I don't think anyone who bought a
Halcyon rebreather over here is still using it.
Jason
--
http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for Aussie diving reports including
the Coral Sea, Ningaloo reef, the Solitaries and Byron Bay
Huw Porter
news:bldtf2$h07$1...@hercules.btinternet.com
> Huw Porter <huwp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Well, I was back in Portland over the weekend for DIR-Fundamentals,
>
> It was quite nice to be able to talk sense on DIR for
> a while but we passed closing time on the zoo and the
> animals are out.
I thought it might end up that way, but hey, I posted the report for
those here that know and have dived with me, not the people (either
side) who just want to pick a fight.
The base reason I took the course was to try and become a better diver
for myself and a better buddy for my buddies. And it worked - both
during the course and in showing me where and how I can improve more.
That is good enough for me.
Cheers,
Huw
--
http://www.huwporter.com
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Jason
> Don't blame the agencies, for _cheap_ instruction running to minimum times
> and costs - you get exactly what you are prepared to pay for.
So you don't think agencies should have quality control then?
Jason
--
See http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for trip reports including
the Costa Blanca, Gibraltar, Gran Canaria and the UK
Rob Kelly
True some of it's supporters are over zealous. Most of them, it has to be
said, are on some of the US lists. However I didn't notice any DIR divers
here shouting, screaming, hollering and telling people that they were going
to die. I did see some people who plainly know very little about DIR saying
it's rubbish. It seems to me that the zealot factor is very much on the
other side of the fence in this thread.
RobK
Frank Bruce
> So you don't think agencies should have quality control then?
>
> Jason
If they do they should DIR :-) or not at all (perhaps that's a reason
towards why JJ set up GUE?) - However the current position(s) help no one,
my personal summary. But not being able to think through a better way of
implementation - it's buyer beware.
What would you suggest?
/F
Dale Gray
"Frank Bruce" <fbr...@cruelmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f7a7f2c$0$255$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
> "Dale Gray" <da...@gray.at> wrote in message
> news:bldseb$fhc$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
>
> > But in my humble uninformed opinion, any system that says it has all the
> > answers only stops its followers from thinking for themselves.
>
> Then you _aren't_ talking about DIR, but the personallities that you have
> come into contact with and ego's involved. Firstly I'm not DIR - I'm an
> Inspiration mixed gas diver and Inspiration Instuctor.
Yes it is probably personalities, but I am yet to find anyone who claims to
be DIR who is reasonable about it
> That being said I
> teach a Twinset-F course (you'll note the similarity in the name to
DIR-F).
> This last two weekends I taught this integrated into IANTD & TDI Adv
Nitrox
> and TDI Deco Procedures.
> There are equipment requirements; these are 18l backgas and 5l stage.
>
> Needless to say four very different twinsets turned up, hoses routed
> differently, inverted set, bungee wings & BCDs you name it... it was
there.
> They left with four very similar looking rigs - not because I dictated
what
> you must do - but because I took the time and explained the failure
points,
> reasons for eqipment choices and why things go where they do. They
thought
> about it and then they made the changes they wanted to. They adjusted and
> balanced the rigs and completed skills and fin techniques none thought
they
> could do - two of them had never managed a valve shutdown on the previous
> setup, managed with ease in sub 45 seconds, and four solo divers very much
> became a team.
I have just been out shopping for a Normoxic TriMix course for myself, and I
found alot of instructors blinkered by DIR, when what I was looking for was
an instructor who taught that kit configuration was a list of pros and cons,
that a student neads to understand both sides of so they could make informed
choices, under the guidance of an expert.
Like yourself, all the ones on my short list said they were NOT DIR.
> > This is the only thing wrong about DIR. In fairness it the only thing
> wrong
> > with all the training agencies, it is just that DIR is the most vocal so
> > gets the slagging
>
> Don't blame the agencies, for _cheap_ instruction running to minimum times
> and costs - you get exactly what you are prepared to pay for.
Very true
>
> > Dale
>
>
Pete Young
>Makes you wonder if the colder water has got anything to do with that. Or
>the fact that the guys over here aren't all superfit, triathlon runners.
I think the fitness aspect is probably the most significant point. The
UK DIR group are fairly conservative in what they do, but the Swedish
DIR group run by Richard Lundgren are doing some fairly aggressive stuff,
wreck diving in generally colder water than we have here. I think they
have a pretty good safety record.
Several of the UK DIR group _are_ superfit triathletes, having discovered
the sport as part of their efforts to get fit. Some of them appear to
have also discovered that they prefer to do triathlons than go diving.
>Other DIR methods haven't survived the UK wreck diving test. Very few
>people still rear mount their reels.
George Irvine appears to have changed his mind about this one. He
now advocates that for wreck diving, or any other open ocean diving,
put the reel on your hip D ring if you have no stages. If you have
stages, he now says clip the reel to the line on top of the outside
stage.
This is what I've been doing for a while anyway, since being a
short git I got fed up with the reel dangling between my legs and
smacking me in the nads!
Pete
--
____________________________________________________________________
Pete Young pe...@antipope.org Remove dot. to reply
"Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life"
John Kendall
"Huw Porter" <huwp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8f80c64f.03093...@posting.google.com...
> The video really is the key, and there is no arguing with it - you
> watch what you do, and you think 'I need to do that better!' The
> review on Saturday was a decidedly sobering experience, none of us
> looked as good as we thought we did, none of us were as horizontal in
> the water as we thought we were.
Hi Huw,
Sounds like you had a similar experience to us last week. The video is Soul
destroying, You think you've got it sorted, then you see yourself on the
video.
> And I didn't even fall over in the car park. ;-)
Oi! I didn't fall over, there was no falling over Hmpf.
John
Pete Young
>Could you explain what "stroke" means in this context, please?
The insult of choice of the DIR zealot. I gather that it is founded
in the phrase 'different strokes for different folks' .
Nigel Hewitt
> "Nigel Hewitt" writes:
>
>> Like a bunch of people I think the DIR holistic
>> approach to team/gear/gas has its place but some
>> of its supporters are over zealous and enjoy shouting
>> 'stroke'
>
I think it started as a reasonably good humoured reference
to a diver with a bad attitude to safety as in
#1 Don’t dive with strokes
#2 Don’t listen to strokes
#3 Nothing underwater is worth dying for
but it has become a term of abuse hurled about by the
lunatic fringe who are mainly DIR wanbees not DIR
divers. I think you will find the DIR mainstream is
distancing itself from this sort of thing.
DIR is caricatured as an endless argument about the
CORRECT!!!! place to stow your backup compass when, as
Huw pointed out, it is largely about team and skills
not equipment. As Jason pointed out the rig that they
standardised on can be improved on for UK wreck diving
(IMO) but it is a good basis to start from and solves
a lot of problems. I'd keep the boots on the cylinders
for example as they are virtually weightless and a rig
that stands up by itself is a-good-thing (also you get
less corrosion as the paint stays on) but I won't
quibble with the manifolded twins/donate the long hose
system which predates DIR but they were wize to adopt.
nigelH
Dale Gray
instructors)
Fed up of trying to find a TRIMIX Instructor who will leave some of the
decisions to me? Yes
Am I capable of making some of the decisions? I have been diving for 24
years, both wrecks and caves (PADI DM, BSAC Dive Leader, TDI Cave), I am now
approaching 40 and appear to be in a mid life crisis as I now want to go
deeper.
I want to take the next step, not junk it all and start over.
And yes I was getting carried away with the death and doom comment,
apologies for that.
I think their Name is the problem as DIR implies that the rest of us are
wrong
Dale
"Rob Kelly" <robk...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eSweb.1346$kA.4...@wards.force9.net...
Jason
> What would you suggest?
TBH I wasn't really thinking about the tech agencies. With them I think
there can be the opposite problem. By the time people have decided they
want to do the more advanced courses, they're already more or less doing
it and don't learn much.
It's the open water in three days that I think is the worst problem.
Jason
--
http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for Maldivian trip reports including Kuredu,
Fesdu, Meedhupparu, Summer Island Village and Velidhu
Jason
> Zealot? no (well a bit annoyed at having the same conversation with numerous
> instructors)
> Fed up of trying to find a TRIMIX Instructor who will leave some of the
> decisions to me? Yes
What part of the country do you want to do your course? I'm sure people
here could recommend instructors. And some them dive Inspirations and you
can't get much less DIR than that. (I can't believe I'm the first person
to mention a CCR in a thread)
Jason
--
http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for Aussie diving reports including
Stradbroke Island, Terrigal, Jervis Bay and Portsea
Jason
> DIR is caricatured as an endless argument about the
> CORRECT!!!! place to stow your backup compass when, as
The right sort of bungee is very important too.
Anders Arnholm
> Jason <jason.use...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
>
>>Makes you wonder if the colder water has got anything to do with that. Or
>>the fact that the guys over here aren't all superfit, triathlon runners.
>
> I think the fitness aspect is probably the most significant point. The
> UK DIR group are fairly conservative in what they do, but the Swedish
> DIR group run by Richard Lundgren are doing some fairly aggressive stuff,
> wreck diving in generally colder water than we have here. I think they
> have a pretty good safety record.
It just got out figuers that 5 of 14 Dir-f student in Sweden had got
bent. But I don't know anything more about how the figuers where
collected. These figuers also lead to a large inflamed argument on the
swedish scuba board. (http://www.dykarna.nu)
> George Irvine appears to have changed his mind about this one. He
> now advocates that for wreck diving, or any other open ocean diving,
So this is the most inportant thing, one setup doesn't fit every dive.
There are differences that has to be considerd. Each diver has to make
an as informed desition as possible. It this desition is the same or
close to the DIR setup or not I can't say, I don't know that much yet.
--
http://anders.arnholm.nu/ Keep on Balping
Pete Young
>Although "different strokes for different folks" seems to imply a degree
>of tolerance that seems to be otherwise absent from this debate.
Well, that's kind-of the point. If your objective is to organise a
team of 95-100 divers to do some very extreme diving, standardisation
becomes a lot more important than if you're only concerned with
one or two individuals diving together. You can't really afford
to tolerate much variation.
beanie
> On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 10:45:01 +0100, Dale Gray wrote:
>
> > Zealot? no (well a bit annoyed at having the same conversation with
numerous
> > instructors)
> > Fed up of trying to find a TRIMIX Instructor who will leave some of the
> > decisions to me? Yes
Had similar problems - but then it's important to be happy with who your
doing the course with
> What part of the country do you want to do your course? I'm sure people
> here could recommend instructors. And some them dive Inspirations and you
> can't get much less DIR than that. (I can't believe I'm the first person
> to mention a CCR in a thread)
your not - doing DIR-F with YBoDs already been said
http://www.dolphinsac.org.uk/diving/photo/beanieybod5.jpg/view
Dale Gray
This is not an attempt to stir up more arguments, but a serious request for
knowledge, I know it won't work like that but that is the intention.
The question - Why does DIR recommend no shoulder breaks in the harness?
As I see it the pros and cons are as follows
For shoulder breaks - (1)your kit is easier to take on and off, (2)in an
emergency a rescuer can dump your kit easily
Against - it might break and only leave you with a shoulder strap, a chest
strap and a waist strap and a possible abort for the dive. I say possible
because you can dive with one shoulder strap open - I an say this because I
tried it before putting shoulder breaks in my harness
There has to be more to justify going against (2) above, but I can't see it
"Huw Porter" <huwp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8f80c64f.03093...@posting.google.com...
> Well, I was back in Portland over the weekend for DIR-Fundamentals,
> taught by Andy Kerslake and assisted behind the video camera by John
> Grogan. And it was intense. Over 24 hours of instruction packed in
> to a weekend-and-an-evening, with over four hours in the water.
>
> But - The 'DIR Baseball Bat' *really* couldn't be further from the
> truth. Obviously, Andy and John do believe that there is a right way
> - and recommendations were made, many things were discussed, 'The Bar'
> was shown, but harsh criticism came exclusively from people talking
> about *their own* performance on the video.
>
> Having done a lot of research over the past couple of years, there was
> nothing much in the academics that was a surprise, but my two
> team-mates were basically new to the whole set of concepts, and found
> it mindblowing.
>
> My kit passed (at this level) easily enough. Yep, even the homebrew
> bp/wing. :-) But then I've been heading in this direction for a
> couple of years. I lengthened the crotch strap, retied a couple of
> knots and repositioned a couple of D-rings slightly, but that was it.
> Contrary to popular belief, there is nothing on my rig that says
> 'Halcyon' (OK, apart from gaiters ;-)) but it is adequately
> streamlined, and there is nothing there preventing me doing the
> skills.
>
> The video really is the key, and there is no arguing with it - you
> watch what you do, and you think 'I need to do that better!' The
> review on Saturday was a decidedly sobering experience, none of us
> looked as good as we thought we did, none of us were as horizontal in
> the water as we thought we were.
>
> My main realisation of the weekend is that it is all about the team.
> When (my) focus shifted from trying to demonstrate skills to the
> instructor/camera, to trying to do everything as a team things went
> much better. And it all works...
>
> And I managed to raise my game enough on Sunday to pass. :-) As far
> as skills go, with the upgrade to a twinset (and assuming I can do a
> twins shutdown as well as the single drill) I could try for Tech 1.
>
> And I didn't even fall over in the car park. ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Huw
Dale Gray
"Sorry but you are not good enough to pass" is just not in the language
Dale
"Jason" <jason.use...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.10.01....@ntlworld.com...
Anders Arnholm
> Outside of cave diving, GUE is probably the only agency that will
> teach you to fin properly, a fairly fundamental (excuse the pun) skill
> overlooked by pretty much every other (non-cave specific) agency.
What is properly, is this the same for all divers? I know that
somekind of teching in using the fins was in the PADI OW course. But
that you might not call that properly :) However both finning
technices has the advantages and maybe there uses.
/ Balp
Frank Bruce
news:ble71f$7uo$2...@visp.bt.co.uk...
> >Could you explain what "stroke" means in this context, please?
>
> The insult of choice of the DIR zealot. I gather that it is founded
> in the phrase 'different strokes for different folks' .
Another would be swims with their hands and therefore "strokes" the water...
or my personal favorite
A stroke or w@nker - by actions ;-) it's kinda deep.
/F
Imorital
> decisions to me? Yes
Richy at http://www.deepbluediving.org/ will leave the decisions to you, and
providing you can perform the skills, answer the questions and generally
don't look like a liability you'll be able to pass. You'll also be much
poorer (he's not called Chiseller for nothing :-) and have enjoyed a few
good dives.
Cheers
Matt.
Danny Burchett
>
> "Jason" <jason.use...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2003.10.01....@ntlworld.com...
>> On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 10:22:19 +0100, Frank Bruce wrote:
>>
>> > What would you suggest?
>>
>> TBH I wasn't really thinking about the tech agencies. With them I think
>> there can be the opposite problem. By the time people have decided they
>> want to do the more advanced courses, they're already more or less doing
>> it and don't learn much.
>>
>> It's the open water in three days that I think is the worst problem.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> --
> I would say it is the zero failure rate that is the problem.
>
> "Sorry but you are not good enough to pass" is just not in the language
>
> Dale
Totally agree, when I booked my CCR course I made sure I chose an instructor
that a) had failed people, and b) was reccomended by people I knew.
I didn't want a paper ticket, I wanted to think I had earned it.
Danny
--
The box said windows 98 or better, so I installed Linux
Header is false, correct is Danny at danshome dot org
Imorital
> >approach to team/gear/gas has its place but some
> >of its supporters are over zealous and enjoy shouting
> >'stroke'
>
Bill Gavin says - 'A "stroke" is somebody with an unsafe attitude.' (from
Doing It Right Gear Configuration by George Irvine,
http://www.wkpp.org/articles/Gear/newgeorge.html).
Matt.
Lazarus X
wrote:
>"Eddie" <Ed...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>news:blcfso$b46$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
>>
>> "Bardo" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> news:blc86l$aire5$1...@ID-115313.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> > A system of diving developed my American cave divers that aims to
>simplify
>> > and standardise kit configuration. It teaches good team work,
>preparation
>> > and awareness and is very much a holistic system - ie. simply having
>your
>> > kit configured in a DIR fashion does not make you a DIR diver!
>>
>> Ahhhh! Just as I thought. A little to do with grassy knolls and the modern
>> tendency to follow a team approach and take any individuality out of our
>> sport in the chase for the good of the whole. Is T Bliar a member of your
>> org? ;-))))))
>So what is correct for cave diving in Florida must also be correct for ice
>diving in Norway???????
Even closer correlations. Cave diving in Florida and cave diving in
the UK. DIR (as far as kit is concerned) falls on it's arse when
diving UK caves.
I do like the bits about healthy body and mind but that is more ZEN
than DIR ;-)
I also like the bits about common gasses and labeling across the team.
It comes into it's own in bailout scenarios. But (as above), I
disagree that the same configuration works regardless of where you are
diving.
Laz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A foolproof method for sculpting an Elephant:
First, get a huge block of marble. Then, chip away
everything that doesn't look like an Elephant.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Change "nospam" to "ntlworld" to reply.
Anders Arnholm
> Pete Young <pe...@antipope.org> skriver:
>> Jason <jason.use...@ntlworld.com> writes:
> It just got out figuers that 5 of 14 Dir-f student in Sweden had got
> bent. But I don't know anything more about how the figuers where
Sorry, the numbers was for the students of the GUE Tech 1 course not
DIR-F. Guess that a loot more have done DIR-F that Tech 1.
/ Anders
Anders Arnholm
> For shoulder breaks - (1)your kit is easier to take on and off, (2)in an
> emergency a rescuer can dump your kit easily
The argument against 2 is to use the knife and then you dont have that
problem. Then removing the herness with out it is easyer than one
thinks with a little training. On my rescue cource we did this a loot
of times. Well it never got as conveinent as removing a jacket or the
TPII but supprisingly easy. Cutting the webbing, it is porbbaly as
easy as removing any other system. Leaft is the argument for being
easyet to take of in the water.
/ Balp
Lazarus X
<iainm...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Yes nearly all DIR in England is Wreck Diving at Sea, using
>> an American Cave Diving System. Is it only me that can see
>> the problem?
>
>Dale - if you want to discuss something, it helps to know enough about it
>not to make a fool of yourself. DIR is _not_ a "cave diving system". It's a
>diving system which can be applied to (virtually) every environment. I'll
>conceed CDG-type diving as I know very little about it. However, to suggest
>that DIR doesn't work for UK wreck diving is simply wrong.
>
>> Isn't it fortunate that most American Cave Dive sites have
>> deep water entries, or they would have banned releasable
>> weights as well.
>
>Releasable weights is a topic of itself. The only thing I can ditch on my
>DIR-compliant rig is my canister. Fortunately I don't need to as I'm
>entirely capable of swimming the entire set up. The moment you start doing
>any significant amount of deco, I believe that ditchable weight becomes a
>serious health hazard.
>
>> It is horses for courses, change the environment you change
>> your kit.
>
>Absolutely. But what on earth is wrong with a standard basis of which to
>build everything else. Consistency can never be anything other than
>desirable.
>
>> If you are incapable of handling a kit change then retrain
>> until you are or stay out of the other environment.
>>
>> SO AMERICAN CAVE DIVERS GO HOME
>
>And British bigots open your eyes and minds.
I am not having a go at anybody here, but why is it whenever DIR is
discussed, it always boils down to kit. DIR is much more than that,
some of which I agree with some of which I don't. This inevitably
makes me a stroke but, ATEOTD, I am no more or less likely to do
something just because somebody told me too.
The biggest problem, I have with DIR is on the kit configuration side.
The problem is that there are people who think that just because their
kit is a DIR rig, they are DIR and safer as a result. These people
tend not to know how to use the kit (shutdowns being an obvious
example). DIR could hardly be blamed for this could it?
Lazarus X
<fbr...@cruelmail.com> wrote:
>"Dale Gray" <da...@gray.at> wrote in message
>news:bldseb$fhc$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
>
>> But in my humble uninformed opinion, any system that says it has all the
>> answers only stops its followers from thinking for themselves.
>
>Then you _aren't_ talking about DIR, but the personallities that you have
>come into contact with and ego's involved. Firstly I'm not DIR - I'm an
>Inspiration mixed gas diver and Inspiration Instuctor. That being said I
>teach a Twinset-F course (you'll note the similarity in the name to DIR-F).
>This last two weekends I taught this integrated into IANTD & TDI Adv Nitrox
>and TDI Deco Procedures.
>There are equipment requirements; these are 18l backgas and 5l stage.
>
>Needless to say four very different twinsets turned up, hoses routed
>differently, inverted set, bungee wings & BCDs you name it... it was there.
>They left with four very similar looking rigs - not because I dictated what
>you must do - but because I took the time and explained the failure points,
>reasons for eqipment choices and why things go where they do. They thought
>about it and then they made the changes they wanted to. They adjusted and
>balanced the rigs and completed skills and fin techniques none thought they
>could do - two of them had never managed a valve shutdown on the previous
>setup, managed with ease in sub 45 seconds, and four solo divers very much
>became a team.
>
>> This is the only thing wrong about DIR. In fairness it the only thing
>wrong
>> with all the training agencies, it is just that DIR is the most vocal so
>> gets the slagging
>
>Don't blame the agencies, for _cheap_ instruction running to minimum times
>and costs - you get exactly what you are prepared to pay for.
I have not snipped because it's all relevant.
Well done Frank, common sense prevails.
Lee Bell
> There is a DIR sidemaount system apparently, but I don't
> know the details.
If there is, it's news to a lot of us. It was not that long ago that GUE
instructor Michael Kane was on Dreamchasers TV show where he duct taped
soemthing together from his DIR rig instead of diving a sidemount system
recommended by those that dove the caves often. It was not a pretty
picture. Sidemount was clearly not DIR at that time. If it is now, then
it's only because the DIR divers of only a couple years ago have found that
they were wrong about its usefulness.
> I have found most real DIR divers (and to be DIR you need GUE
> training, having a long hose and shouting a lot does not qualify) to
> be more open minded about diving than their critics.
Than your exposure to real DIR divers is somewhat limited. BTW, I'm
reasonably sure that most DIR divers do not have GUE training. DIR divers
were participating in cave diving and development of the system long before
GUE was even a well formed idea. Some, perhaps even most real DIR divers
are nice enough people, but there's nothing open minded or flexible about
their diving. You either comply or you don't even get on the premisis where
the core group is diving. Rule number 1 came right from the top and it's
not exactly what I'd call a flexible or open minded concept.
To say that a GUE trained diver is likely to be better than one with the
same level of experience that has not been trained by them probably has
merit, but GUE training does not make you a DIR diver, at least not until a
decision is made on Halcyon's application for a copyright on the DIR term
which, by the way covers some very non DIR equipment.
Lee
Lee Bell
news:giueb.3430$RU4....@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...
> > Yes nearly all DIR in England is Wreck Diving at Sea, using
> > an American Cave Diving System. Is it only me that can see
> > the problem?
>
> Dale - if you want to discuss something, it helps to know enough about it
> not to make a fool of yourself. DIR is _not_ a "cave diving system".
It most certainly is a cave diving system. It was developed in a cave
diving environment specifically for that environment and is most applicable
to that environment. Everything from the long hose, to the location of
waist buckle and the single piece harness are specifically designed for cave
diving.
> It's a diving system which can be applied to (virtually) every
environment.
This is true too, but it does not change the fact that DIR is, first and
formost, a cave diving system.
Frank Bruce
news:ULxeb.12664$ES2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> your not - doing DIR-F with YBoDs already been said
Okay market pressures......
I'll announce it - Rebreather-F or Just Tech-F
RB/Tech-F
Regardless of the equipment being used by the participants during training
or on workshops, we promote certain elements of safer diving at all levels
addressing UK Ocean diving conditions. These can be taken as a general
guideline of our views with regard to safer and streamlined diving.
Where conventional UK kit (dry suit/wing/rebreather) is used, we promote
minimalism in all kit and configuration.
The "RB Fundamentals" workshop develops divers in the basic aspects of RB
diving, increasing diver fun and efficiency whilst reducing stress and diver
risk. Skills will focus on: improving proficiency, team building skills,
precision buoyancy control, perfecting trim, reducing drag, perfecting
equipment configurations, refining propulsion techniques and improving
underwater communications. This is an all day practical session and
typically runs from 8:00am to 9:00pm. This will be video-ed so that you can
see and critique yourself.
These skills are;
Proficiency in a variety of dive techniques and buoyancy control: modified
flutter, modified frog, modified dolphin, helicopter turns and standard
shuffle kicks.
Be able to hover horizontally at constant depth for 3 minutes.
Remove and replace RB at a depth greater than 6msw.
Swim in a simulated out-of-air situation (without breathing, and exhaling
slowly) without a mask for a distance of at least 15 meters, and commence
gas sharing; or appropriate. While gas sharing, swim for 3 minutes, then
replace and clear mask.
Perform valve shutdowns: You always do an "Bail-Off" drill (deploy the
noisey cold OC hose) before doing a valve drill to ensure your buddy's hose
is deployable if you have a problem.
Deploy lift bag or DSMB to use as an ascent platform, in less than 2
minutes.
Demonstrate buoyancy control by, a timed ascent at a rate of 6 meters per
minute & perform a gas sharing ascent using the backup and long hose second
stage
Remove and replace rebreather at surface.
Demonstrate acceptable navigation / orientation abilities. In an area where
a depth is attainable beyond the planned depth, evaluate that the diver has
the discipline not to exceed the dive plan. Demonstrate a safe attitude and
awareness.
/FAB
Lee Bell
> > But in my humble uninformed opinion, any system that says it has all the
> > answers only stops its followers from thinking for themselves.
>
> Then you _aren't_ talking about DIR, but the personallities that you have
> come into contact with and ego's involved.
It is you, and not him that is not talking about DIR. One of the favorite,
almost signature statements of the head of the group that developed DIR is
"Sit Down, Shut the Fuck up and Listen." You don't get much more closed
minded than that.
Alasdair Allan
> I do not believe that DIR is the only way or that someone who is not
> DIR is unsafe. However, I do believe (actually, I'll go as far a
> saying 'know') that someone who is DIR (again, has to have GUE
> training) is likely to be safer and more skilled than someone of an
> equivalent dive experience who is not...
So what about those of us who have tried a DIR setup, unbroken harness for
instance, and gone "bugger this, thats daft". On a UK boat, in a force 5
or 6, when you're tryingt o dekit in a hurry and get your set tied in, an
unbroken harness in an unmitigated pain the backside.
I'm not even going to mention the stupidily of hanging all your stages off
one side (to leave one side free for a scooter, which 9 times out of 10
you can't use in UK waters because of the reduced visibility).
I've tried DIR, discarded bits of it, and kept the bits that actually work
over here. More people should do that, there are good ideas in there, but
there are (for UK diving) also some really lousy ideas.
Al.
Frank Bruce
news:cCyeb.301$3S....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
:-)
Okay then who developed DIR?
/FAB
Jason
> Okay market pressures......
>
> I'll announce it - Rebreather-F or Just Tech-F
I trust this course will be offered through an HSE approved agency.
Jason
--
http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for Aussie diving reports including
Cape Tribulation, Cairns, Airlie Beach, Exmouth and the HMAS Swan
Frank Bruce
>
> > Okay market pressures......
> >
> > I'll announce it - Rebreather-F or Just Tech-F
>
> I trust this course will be offered through an HSE approved agency.
>
> Jason
TDI / IANTD? Which would sir prefer - Or I could just call it a workshop
and not issue a certification - a bit like GUE DIR-F :-)
I think RB-F - TECH-F could be for mixed teams :-)
/F
Alasdair Allan
> Remove and replace RB at a depth greater than 6msw.
Oh boy, I _have_ to try this one!
Al.
Keith S.
> So what about those of us who have tried a DIR setup, unbroken harness for
> instance, and gone "bugger this, thats daft". On a UK boat, in a force 5
> or 6, when you're tryingt o dekit in a hurry and get your set tied in, an
> unbroken harness in an unmitigated pain the backside.
When I first went to a wing I didn't bother to put in a break
as I figured I could always add one later... but I never did,
as there is no problem getting out of the harness if it's
not too tight. Including on a rib in the Portland race once,
remember?
- Keith
Lee Bell
> Okay then who developed DIR?
It was developed by the WKPP, an organization now headed by George Irvine
and strongly influenced by Jarrod Jablonski. There is presently a copyright
application on the letters DIR used in relationship to pretty much any
diving equipment, training and phylosophy by Halcyon, a company owned by
Jarros Jablonski and Robert Carmichael. DIR is about to legally become as
commercial as, in reality, it has been for quite some time.
Lee
Dale Gray
the mine at Hodge Close, you can get away with it.
You try it in a normal British Sump, then talk.
"Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:Yzyeb.299$3S...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Frank Bruce
Oddly I'd suggest it's impossible to trademark DIR for two reasons'
1) We call it the Queens' own English implying that English is infact
already owned by the Queen; hence royalties :-)
2) There would appear to be a disbute as to who was what, where and infact
did anything?
DIR, WKPP, GUE, and Halcyon part 1 of 3
Before I get into the post below I want to thank those of you that
encouraged me to drop in. It is so hard to find the time to engage in these
lists but I do value the time that I am able to spend here. Over time I have
engaged lists several times but found that they drain very heavily on time
because so many people are predominantly interested in melodramatic
representations of twisted facts. I initially engaged the SB because I saw
so many outright and probably intentional misrepresentations. I hoped to
illustrate that, in general, "things" are more involved than they appear.
Time will tell<G>
In any case, I have posted the account below on both forums because the
participants both seem interested. I apologize in advance for what some
consider a forum faux pas. I will be in sporadic contact for two weeks while
finishing up some travels but I hope to be by shortly.
Best wishes,
Jarrod
Part 1 of 3
Hello Everyone,
I know that many of you decided long ago how you felt about DIR, Halcyon,
and GUE. However, some of you are still trying to evaluate these groups and
how they fit into your future diving plans.
Over the years I have watched individuals intentionally misrepresent DIR,
Halcyon and GUE and as a result became immune to what was being traded on
the various lists. However, recently I had occasion to discuss issues of
this kind with a number of individuals, some of who were honestly unaware of
the proper history, others who could care less, and some others who were
unknowing pawns in the misrepresentation of these entities. Therefore, I
have decided, as briefly as I can, to give an account of these organizations
and of their philosophical underpinnings.
In the earliest days of cave diving there were various groups of divers,
each with individual commitment to things like streamlining, fitness,
teamwork, exploration, and technological advancement. Much like today, cave
diving meant different things to different people. There were those with a
decidedly recreational focus and those with predominantly focused on
exploration. There have been many cave explorers over the history of cave
diving. Two of the most known and prolific divers to to date have been Sheck
Exley and the divers of the WKPP. Sheck dove with many divers over the years
but generally did his explorations alone. Few people know that near the end
of his lifetime Sheck had started diving regularly with the WKPP and had
almost instantly appreciated the value of DIR. However, unfortunately,
outside of diving with the WKPP Sheck had not yet fully adopted DIR. I find
this regrettable in that from my perspective it was this lack of discipline
with respect to gas selection and team diving that were largely responsible
for his death. I mean no disrespect to Sheck, his memory or accomplishments.
I cared deeply for him and respected both his abilities and personality
tremendously; it saddens me all the more that he was the victim of such a
needless tragedy.
Initially, none of the prominent explorers, including those belonging to the
WKPP, promoted a consistent approach to diving; something akin to what is
now known as "DIR." Various practices, such as donating the long hose, were
utilized by various individuals, but there was no uniform practice running
across an entire team. The WKPP of that day was the closest entity that as a
group promoted the use of a specific system, though there was really no
clear sense of what this meant. Most of the initial focus remained on
"streamlining" equipment withWKPP lead divers Bill Gavin, Bill Main, and
Lamar English spending countless hours on various pieces of equipment; Bill
Gavin being the most meticulous of the group. I loved talking to him about
his theory that the "fates" knew when you had properly maintained your
equipment and when you had not; if you had not then the fates would seize
upon you. It was, at least in part, a joke among as all. Yet, this sort of
ethos became woven into the fabric of the WKPP.
It was Bill Gavin that first promoted the term Hogarthian (a term people
seize upon in a naïve attempt to brow beat DIR). In some ways, the whole
thing was a bit of a joke in so far as Bill Main (while certainly a
significant part of the history) could lay no more claim to the group's
meticulous focus on equipment than any of its other members. For instance,
there was the order of Hogarth (started by my then boss at the University of
Florida Academic Diving Program) and other efforts at taxonomy. These, in an
unofficial way, were the beginning of a formalized paradigm. However, in the
interest of clarity let me emphasize that though many wrote about and
promoted "streamlining";, many of these same individuals let lights dangle
freely, used huge double BC's, wore two primary lights, and generally
confused the entire premise of a cleanly configured diver. I do not say this
to offend anyone. There were certainly INDIVIDUALS that sought to be
minimally configured. There were others that experimented with significant
redundancy. The sport was evolving so this was, in a sense, to be expected.
Yet, there was no ordered system or group appreciation of what was
desirable, save the initial discussions within the WKPP. Moreover, there
were no discussions of any merit that sought to formalize a standard system
with a broad approach to encompass team diving, standardized gasses, defined
procedures, organized decompression, stipulated emergency procedures, and
physical fitness.
It was in this climate that George Irvine and I introduced the hotly debated
DIR system. I began writing about the elements of DIR in the early 1990's
and as Internet discussion groups began to blossom in the early 90's these
elements became more widely debated. George and I carefully outlined an ever
more rigorous standard of care with respect to diving. It was designed from
the outset to address every component of safe and efficient diving. We set
about to formalize an equipment configuration that previously had been ill
defined and, for the first time, insisted upon its use within our group and
amongst our dive buddies. At the time I was teaching for nearly every major
organization (PADI, NAUI, PDIC, YMCA, CMAS, NSS-CDS, NACD, IAND (now IANTD),
and TDI (after they split from IAND). I was on the BOD of the NACD and
NSS-CDS and was, for a time, the Training Director for the NACD. I mention
these affiliations so that the interested could appreciate that my efforts
were initially very much more about inclusion. I worked very hard toward
promoting safety and uniformity WITHIN these organizations and WITHIN the
industry at large. In fact, most of our initial group spoke regularly at
conventions and wrote articles in their various organizations' magazines.
After a time I came to realize that my efforts to change the status quo were
perhaps unfair to the organizations themselves. This is because I saw
first-hand how resistant people were any sort of change; in fact, many of
these individuals had no interest in the commitment that DIR represented.
Therefore, I amicably resigned my formal positions and sought out a means of
providing a global instrument that would allow interested parties a means by
which to learn about DIR; this, in turn, gave rise to GUE.
Concurrently, after many frustrated attempts to convince the major
manufacturers of technical diver gear to make DIR equipment we also set out
to provide, at least for ourselves, a conduit for this equipment. Initially
I had no desire to manufacture equipment. Training and exploration were my
focus. However, we continued to try and encourage individuals to recognize
the value of these ideas. Now, of course, after tremendous effort and
expense others seek to capitalize on what they resisted. Considering these
events, I find it hard to imagine that anyone could begrudge our irritation
at those that would intentionally confuse the meaning of DIR.
I imagine that many of you have reasons to dislike the implied exclusion
within DIR (in fact, it is a self-selected exclusion because if you want to
embrace all its tenets it is open to you). I also appreciate that some of
you have a host of other reasons for not liking the aforementioned
organizations. Honestly, I am perfectly comfortable with that fact. I am
more committed to the freedom this choice represents than to any other
paradigm. Yet, I seek to facilitate a choice based upon facts and not
mangled representations.
Several individuals have complained about Halcyon's association with DIR and
about GUE's close relation to Halcyon. Perhaps this history will assist
those that misunderstand these relations. Because the interaction of these
groups has been promoted as a reason to disparage their purpose I will, in
another post, speak directly to the associations within GUE and Halcyon as
well as the advancement of Halcyon-like products.
Best wishes to you all,
Jarrod
__________________
CEO Halcyon Manufacturing
President GUE
CEO Extreme Exposure
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------
And here is Bill Mains response:
For many years, I have watched--without responding--as some people have
rewritten cave diving history to support their personal agendas. And for
those many years, I have generally been amused by "facts" that are
inaccurate and by events that never actually occurred. However, Jarrod's
article demands a response from me, so I am making my first ever Internet
posting. I feel compelled to make this response for two primary reasons.
First, Jarrod uses the words "twisted facts" in his post, when, in fact,
several of his own "facts" are inaccurate. Second, I spoke to Jarrod
recently and told him I was going to write an article regarding the
differences between the Hogarthian configuration and DIR. When Jarrod heard
this news, he became defensive and asked me not to write the article because
it "would stir things up." So I complied with his request and did not write
the article. If, however, I wrote the article now, there are several things
I might say.
For example, I might mention that Lloyd Bailey, my long time friend,
certified Jarrod in full cave on October 23, 1989, a date that's after some
of the events about which Jarrod writes with seeming authority. In
actuality, Jarrod was not there in the early days of the WKPP, nor was
anyone else currently in that organization around in those days. In my
non-article, I also might write an interesting tidbit to put some
perspective on Jarrod's position in the equation. Specifically, when Jarrod
was working at Ginnie Springs, we used to dive a lot together. One night,
while we were decompressing on the log in Devil's Ear, I used my slate to
ask Jarrod in what year he was born. When he wrote his response, I realized
that I had been decompressing on what seemed to be the same log when he was
only three years old. As a result, the cave diving history on which Jarrod
reports is frequently nothing more than hearsay. Inasmuch as this is the
case, I'd like to correct the most glaring errors Jarrod makes in his
posting.
Specifically, Sheck Exley died before the term "DIR" was used. Furthermore,
in the beginning of DIR, the basic configuration was the same as Hogarthian,
although differences did come into play later. As far as the coining of the
term "Hogarthian configuration" is concerned, the mastermind of those words
was John Zumrick and not Bill Gavin. And, finally, the main theme of the
original WKPP members was of minimalism and the complete elimination of
danglies. The poor gear configuration of which Jarrod writes in his post was
definitely not characteristic of the initial WKPP group, and again, Jarrod
wasn't around to even witness what our gear configuration was.
In closing, Jarrod has been a part of some big events in cave diving and has
made some incredible dives. However, I have always believed that if you must
report on or write about parts of cave diving history, you will make fewer
mistakes if you were there.
William Hogarth Main
-----------
And Then A Guy Named Greg Flanagan Posted This:
The post was indeed Hogarth - He's the real thing and not a troll - and his
contributions, past and present, to the sport of cave diving speak for
themselves. All on the lists should continue to encourage him to write of
his experiences, as a great deal of cave diving history could be accurately
preserved from his first person experiences and observations.
I don't mean to minimize the contributions of others of more recent entry
into the sport of which a great deal has already been written, but it would
be nice (for the sake of preservation of history) to get a first hand
account from someone who was there to fill the historical void that seems to
exist for the pre-WKPP and pre-DIR years.
BTW, Parker Turner did not make the first back plate - I did.
See http://www.dive-rite.com/products/history/backplate.htm
Greg Flanagan
Alasdair Allan
> Alasdair Allan wrote:
> > So what about those of us who have tried a DIR setup, unbroken harness
> > for instance, and gone "bugger this, thats daft". On a UK boat, in a
> > force 5 or 6, when you're tryingt o dekit in a hurry and get your set
> > tied in, an unbroken harness in an unmitigated pain the backside.
>
> When I first went to a wing I didn't bother to put in a break as I
> figured I could always add one later... but I never did, as there is no
> problem getting out of the harness if it's not too tight.
Let me rephrase... ;)
Some people seem to have no problem at all, alot of people do, I know I
did before I added a break in the harness... and no, this isn't an issue
about how tight or loose the shoudler straps vs the waist band are
supposed to be, I tried both.
> Including on a rib in the Portland race once, remember?
I definately am not going to forget that one in a hurry, a dive that will
live in infamy... ;)
Al.
Rob Kelly
"Huge" <hu...@ukmisc.org.uk> wrote in message
news:blehcq$4vr$2...@anubis.demon.co.uk...
> Anders Arnholm <Ander...@Arnholm.nu> writes:
> >Dale Gray <da...@gray.at> skriver:
> >> For shoulder breaks - (1)your kit is easier to take on and off, (2)in
an
> >> emergency a rescuer can dump your kit easily
> >
> >The argument against 2 is to use the knife and then you dont have that
> >problem.
>
> waste of space) in a confined space, in limited viz, close to the body
> of a possibly paniced diver?
>
> Yeah. Right.
Trauma shears are a better bet.
Cut through webbing no problem, without cutting through diver.
HTH
Rob.
>
> --
> "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
> The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.huge.org.uk/transport/FAQ.html
> [email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]
>
>
Pete Young
>So, you have someone using a sharp knife (and if it isn't sharp it's a
>waste of space) in a confined space, in limited viz, close to the body
>of a possibly paniced diver?
What most sentient rational beings do is to use a pair of scissors
(a.k.a. EMT shears) on the grounds that they are both safer and more
effective when it comes to cutting webbing, line, rope or anything
else.
Pete
--
____________________________________________________________________
Pete Young pe...@antipope.org Remove dot. to reply
"Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life"
Nigel Hewitt
> I'll announce it - Rebreather-F or Just Tech-F
<canned applause>
> RB/Tech-F
>
> Regardless of the equipment being used by the participants during
> training or on workshops, we promote certain elements of safer diving
> at all levels addressing UK Ocean diving conditions. These can be
> taken as a general guideline of our views with regard to safer and
> streamlined diving.
Darn Reynolds numbers again. I hate them. Streamlining sucks.
> Where conventional UK kit (dry suit/wing/rebreather) is used, we
> promote minimalism in all kit and configuration.
So where do I put the EPIRB then? It's currently on my left hip
tucked in under the Argon. Can we do rec.scuba.equipment style
stand up fights?
> The "RB Fundamentals" workshop develops divers in the basic aspects
> of RB diving, increasing diver fun and efficiency whilst reducing
> stress and diver risk. Skills will focus on: improving proficiency,
> team building skills,
Team? Diving with DannyB? Darnit on my Dover holiday I finished
over 50% of the dives alone. I don't really score at team sports.
Actually I'm much happier doing this on the RB as it carries its
own bail out for the majority of faults. I just need a GTN dispenser
incase it's me that's gone wrong.
> precision buoyancy control,
OK so my 'ease in to a 3m stop' sucks. I have the computer dumps
to prove it. Is this teach or test? Too many tech courses I've
done down the years just said 'do this' 'tick'. I put up a blob
for the first time on IANTD Adv. Nitrox and was lucky. It worked.
> perfecting trim,
<sigh> DIET Coke for a weekend. I'm down to 12 stone.
> reducing drag,
Just don't mention this in Brighton.
> perfecting equipment configurations, refining
> propulsion techniques and improving underwater communications. This
> is an all day practical session and typically runs from 8:00am to
> 9:00pm. This will be video-ed so that you can see and critique
> yourself.
We warned you. The camera is ready.
Can we all see the video of 'communication skills'?
> These skills are;
>
> Proficiency in a variety of dive techniques and buoyancy control:
> modified flutter, modified frog, modified dolphin, helicopter turns
> and standard shuffle kicks.
Yes. Wanna play. I want to be able to fin backwards. I have
tried and failed utterly. Clearly my fins are not doing what
I think they are.
> Be able to hover horizontally at constant depth for 3 minutes.
Oh no. Not a reprise of the 1m stop for five minutes with the Stoney
ducks circling my head for mod1... <sulk>
> Remove and replace RB at a depth greater than 6msw.
Al has dealt with this one with a careful and reasoned critique.
I fear my tendency towards integrated weights (unless on a RIB)
could have catastrophic results here.
> Swim in a simulated out-of-air situation (without breathing, and
> exhaling slowly) without a mask for a distance of at least 15 meters,
> and commence gas sharing; or appropriate. While gas sharing, swim for
> 3 minutes, then replace and clear mask.
Yuck. Tec Rec again. Do I have to identify my own rebreather by feel at
the end of the swim and put it on again before putting my mask back?
In a two or three knot tide?
> Perform valve shutdowns: You always do an "Bail-Off" drill (deploy the
> noisey cold OC hose) before doing a valve drill to ensure your
> buddy's hose is deployable if you have a problem.
And if all my buddy has is that silly Autoair?
Yes I have tried breathing from somebody else's.
zero out of ten for user friendly. Would make
for an interesting ascent.
> Deploy lift bag or DSMB to use as an ascent platform, in less than 2
> minutes.
You've been watching too many OC divers on Air at 35m. 2 minutes is good.
On mix 30 seconds is par. 'cept when it goes wrong again (not been a good
year for DSMBs, thanks Huw).
> Demonstrate buoyancy control by, a timed ascent at a rate of 6 meters
> per minute & perform a gas sharing ascent using the backup and long
> hose second stage
Eeeek! That's why I carry a spare blob/reel.
> Remove and replace rebreather at surface.
You just know you'll get a D-ring in the shoulder blades. Heck. There
are times I can hardly get it on in the boat. The chest strap is in
the tool box after one altercation too many so it's only got five pull
to tighten things now.
> Demonstrate acceptable navigation / orientation abilities.
That me trashed then. I take the GPS down the shops.
> In an area
> where a depth is attainable beyond the planned depth, evaluate that
> the diver has the discipline not to exceed the dive plan. Demonstrate
> a safe attitude and awareness.
That depends if there is anything intersting down there, what stops are
already showing and is my Buddy up for it? Ah the delights of the old
yellow blendermatic.
<Frank closes waving to the audiance>
Sounds fun. Where do I sign? Do I get the videos on AVI?
nigelH
Me? Attitude problem?
Pete Young
>I'm not even going to mention the stupidily of hanging all your stages off
>one side (to leave one side free for a scooter, which 9 times out of 10
>you can't use in UK waters because of the reduced visibility).
It's just as well you're not going to mention it, because if you did
someone else would probably point out that there are several other
perfectly valid reasons for not putting stuff on the right hand side
of your body. For example, theres nothing to get in the way of the
deployment of the long hose, and you still have full uncompromised
unrestricted movement of one arm.
Someone else might also mention that this works best with the
buoyancy characteristics of an Al 80. Since we don't have ready
access to Al 80s here, the 7l Al Luxfers are a reasonable alternative
but it really doesn't work with steel 7s.
>I've tried DIR, discarded bits of it, and kept the bits that actually work
>over here.
Strictly speaking, you've tried bits of it. Did you give up alcohol?
Did you get fit? Did you dive only with a team of like-minded people?
Iain and the other folks who actually attended the GUE fundamentals
can be said to have 'tried DIR'. The rest of us are just kidding
ourselves. We've tried what we read about on the internet.
Dale Gray
That has nothing to do with you
>
> Strictly speaking, you've tried bits of it. Did you give up alcohol?
yes
> Did you get fit?
Would you like to go a few rounds?
> Did you dive only with a team of like-minded people?
Solo is safer
Dale Gray
"Nigel Hewitt" <ne...@REMOVETHISnigelhewitt.net> wrote in message
news:3f7ac391$1...@news.star.co.uk...
Dale Gray
"Rob Kelly" <robk...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:gWzeb.1440$kA.4...@wards.force9.net...
Nigel Hewitt
> Fascinating where you find comparitive religious philosophy, isn't it?
As I have said before:
I'm a Baptist. There's only room for one life
dominating creed in a life so I can't do DIR
as well. 8)
nigelH
Eastbourne this weekend. Hope it calms down a bit. 8(
Rob Kelly
> USE A SHOULDER BREAK, Then if that fails use a cutting implement
>
>
NO
<Snip>
Danny Burchett
> Frank Bruce wrote:
>
>
>> The "RB Fundamentals" workshop develops divers in the basic aspects
>> of RB diving, increasing diver fun and efficiency whilst reducing
>> stress and diver risk. Skills will focus on: improving proficiency,
>> team building skills,
>
> Team? Diving with DannyB? Darnit on my Dover holiday I finished
> over 50% of the dives alone. I don't really score at team sports.
> Actually I'm much happier doing this on the RB as it carries its
> own bail out for the majority of faults. I just need a GTN dispenser
> incase it's me that's gone wrong.
>
<SNIP>
Erm.... What have I done this time?
Danny (who thought he was okay at being a buddy but is now feeling all
insecure)
--
The box said windows 98 or better, so I installed Linux
Header is false, correct is Danny at danshome dot org
Lee Bell
A glowing report of his DIR-F course.
Your report is consistent with the feelings of most people who have taken
the course, whether here, there, or elsewhere. Everybody that takes it
seems to come away a better diver.
Let us not forget, however, that the course you took is a GUE offering and
is DIR in name only.
Halcyon has applied for a copyright on the DIR name related to diving and
their application covers a lot more than what you and I might agree is
consistent with what we have grown to know as DIR. Soon there will be DIR
flippers, DIR snorkels and, so help me, it's in there, DIR gear bags.
Lee
beanie
> Dive SOLO its safer
<snip>
maybe but then what's wrong with the I'm on my own attitude but dive with a
friend or two - to send the YBoD back, point out the conger you've got your
hand on, take pictures of you etc...
Dale Gray
"beanie" <nos...@diving.ukdiver.com> wrote in message
news:SwAeb.17435$ES2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Anders Arnholm
> Anders Arnholm <Ander...@Arnholm.nu> writes:
>>Dale Gray <da...@gray.at> skriver:
>>> For shoulder breaks - (1)your kit is easier to take on and off, (2)in an
>>> emergency a rescuer can dump your kit easily
>>
>>The argument against 2 is to use the knife and then you dont have that
>>problem.
>
> So, you have someone using a sharp knife (and if it isn't sharp it's a
> waste of space) in a confined space, in limited viz, close to the body
> of a possibly paniced diver?
Do you remove the kit from a panicked diver under water?
So far I have only planned to to this on the surface with a unconscious
diver.
/ Balp
--
http://anders.arnholm.nu/ Keep on Balping
Huw Porter
> Sorry about going back to the beginning, but a serious question.
>
> This is not an attempt to stir up more arguments, but a serious request for
> knowledge, I know it won't work like that but that is the intention.
>
> The question - Why does DIR recommend no shoulder breaks in the harness?
A reasonable question too.
OK, I'm no instructor, much less a DIR instructor, and I'm a long way
from being DIR yet (FTR, I think DIR is an ideal to aspire to rather
than a clear destination) but I'll try and talk you through as much as I
can put into words about why the unbroken harness works, with the rest
of the system, for me.
I have no problem getting into and out of the harness, on shore, on
boats, in the water, under the water. One of the fundamentals is to get
your harness fitting properly, which means tight enough so that you can
reach your valves but loose enough so that you can get in and out
easily.
To be honest, I probably find the single piece harness easier to get
into than a QR harness. If you unclip the pieces of a QR harness, then
finding the ends to clip back together can be a pain, and if you leave
it clipped together then the extra clutter seems to make it more likely
to swist/snag/etc. And the single piece harness is always the right
size without ajusting because that is how you built it.
There are no sudden failure points. The webbing has to wear a long way
giving a lot of warning before it becomes a problem, and before it does
it is simple (and cheap) to get a length of new webbing and rebuild the
harness. All parts are easily replaceable (unlike harnesses that have
bits sewn in place, for example).
Sure plenty of people use quick releases on their harness perfectly
sucessfully, but quick releases *can* fail (I've lost count of the
number of times I've seen finstrap quick releases fail, usually just as
people are kitting up for slack, for example), and my view is, if you
can completely eliminate a potential failure point, then why not?
If a quick release were to fail on a relaxing single tank no deco dive,
then it doesn't really pose a huge risk. But it might end your dive,
and or dive day, and or dive trip till you could find some way of either
tieing it together (leaving you in the same position as starting off
with an unbroken harness) or replacing the release. See above, if you
can eliminate this, why not?
But if the harness fails on a demanding dive where you are using deco
bottles, stages &c, it could be a very different matter. And if you can
eliminate the risk... yadda yadda.
Some people here have rigged their harness with a quick release on a
loop. this means even if the QR were to fail, the harness stays intact
(albeit a bit loose). I don't need this, so I don't do it.
Depending on where you put a quick release, it can be either
uncomfortable, and/or hard to reach, and/or can get in the way of other
parts of the system (I know we are talking about specifically the
harness, but just to remember that this is designed as a complete
system, for each part to work together after all)
If your buddy has to ditch your kit at the (surface/boat/shore) then
they just cut the straps. They have cutting tool(s), and they also know
where yours are (because they are in the same place as theirs). And in
my experience, when you have opened the waist buckle the harness pretty
much falls off anyway.
And (as mentioned elsewhere) if you are panicking, then why are you
panicking - what has gone wrong to get you into that state, and what can
you do in terms of technique, teamwork etc to as much as possible avoid
getting into that state in the first place? And the post to try and
cover that is about 100 times as long as this one. ;-)
Cheers,
Huw
--
http://www.huwporter.com
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Keith S.
> USE A SHOULDER BREAK,
But your buddy might not like you breaking his shoulder ;)
- Keith
Keith S.
> Halcyon has applied for a copyright on the DIR name related to diving and
> their application covers a lot more than what you and I might agree is
> consistent with what we have grown to know as DIR. Soon there will be DIR
> flippers, DIR snorkels and, so help me, it's in there, DIR gear bags.
I can believe it. After all, there is the DIR life raft isn't there?
- Keith
Jason
>>Do you remove the kit from a panicked diver under water?
>
> I'm playing Devil's Advocate. Sorry, I didn't mean to, but I can't help
> it.
>
> And, err, no.
It would stop them panicking though.
Jason
--
http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for Aussie diving reports including
the Coral Sea, Ningaloo reef, the Solitaries and Byron Bay
Dale Gray
1) Your buddy has stopped breathing, you have him at the surface, and are
butting rescue breaths into him, the boat is seconds away, and you are
finding your cutting implement and cutting through a webbing strap, whilst
the boat waits. each section of what you are doing is interrupted by putting
another breath in. If the heart has stopped CPR can not begin before he is
in the boat. - The break point would have got him into the boat a minimum of
30 seconds earlier, that is if the extra pressure didn't make you start
fumbling the job.
2) A failure of your shoulder strap, stop secure your position, swear alot,
reorganise everything supported by the strap, attempt a running repair, if
successful continue the dive, if not pop an SMB secure your kit the best you
can and commence surfacing, continue to swear alot.
Then their are the odds of it happening, I have seen 2 rescues and no
shoulder break failures
I don't see this as a hard decision. I have never even heard of a shoulder
break failure, let alone a fatal one
30 seconds extra before CPR starts? you would never know if it would have
helped. but you are right it would be his fault not yours he dived without
the breaks
"Rob Kelly" <robk...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:YtAeb.1464$kA.4...@wards.force9.net...
Nigel Hewitt
> Nigel Hewitt wrote:
>> Team? Diving with DannyB?
> <SNIP>
>
> Erm.... What have I done this time?
Nothing. And that's the way I like it.
For those that don't make a word of sense of
this on the last UKRS trip I did one dive with
Danny, half way through decided I wasn't up to
it, waved goodbye and blobbed off and left him
to it.
He checked to see if I was in trouble and wanted
him to come too but it wasn't the kind of problem
where I was going to need surface support so he
watched me leave and got on with his dive.
That, of course, would be anethema to some. I
like to have somebody to share the dive with
but the rig is built to be self sufficient so
I dive it that way.
nigelH