Waiting for the Trade: Some Reflections on the Book-Format Comic
Johanna Draper Carlson
many new readers, and some people are made uncomfortable by that. It's
like when the internet became open to the general public; lots of
techies didn't want to deal with people who couldn't be assumed to be
just like them.
I love that book comics have a wider variety of material and publishers
than DC and Marvel superheroes. I love that it's much easier to
recommend book comics to friends and family without having to give them
directions to some hard-to-find speciality shop; they can just go ask at
the closest Barnes & Noble or order online. I love that book comics are
easier to read and re-read and carry around with me. I love that many
more types of people are reading book comics.
But to someone who got into collecting comics because he loved the
wish-fulfillment fantasies and was thrilled to find a group of fans just
like him, that diversity can be scary.
I realize that we do risk publishers canceling titles if sales drop
because customers are waiting for the trade. I don't care. It's my job,
as consumer, to buy products I want at prices I find reasonable. It's
not my job to prop up a failing format or title (if that's truly what
they are).
If the publisher doesn't have the faith in their title to put it out in
a different format that might bring it more success, then I'll go read
books by those who do. Those publishers are, more often than not, NOT
the big established companies, but the smaller, more nimble and
adaptable ones.
This is not whistling past the graveyard; it's realizing the harsh
realities of the commercial marketplace. I've had tons of my favorite
series cancelled under me in years past, for a variety of reasons. But
then, I'm very used to not being part of the target audience, since I'm
a comic-reading girl. When I complained about not having comics I was
interested in reading, the general fanboy response was "so?" I guess,
when people attacking those who only read book-format comics, it doesn't
feel so good to be on the other side.
Some have asked if we want nothing on the shelves but reprints, to which
I have two responses:
1. if I haven't read it yet and it's enjoyable, why should I care
whether it was originally created last year or last decade?
2. there's so much great comic stuff that's already been created that I
could last a good while not seeing anything new. That would be terrible,
of course, because I like seeing the medium grow and explore new
subjects, but I would still have stuff to read.
Heck, I just started exploring manga, and I already have over 20 series
on my targeted-to-try want list.
Would it really be so bad if there was a weeding-out of titles, such
that we had fewer but higher quality books to choose from?
--
Johanna Draper Carlson
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Newly updated: Hawaiian Dick is the newest Comic Worth Reading.
January Previews now available!
David Doty
news:johannaNOSPAM-93E...@news.fu-berlin.de:
> I realize that we do risk publishers canceling titles if sales drop
> because customers are waiting for the trade. I don't care. It's my job,
> as consumer, to buy products I want at prices I find reasonable.
Very true. I simply can't afford to buy something in a format I don't want
in exchange for a *hope* that I will get a chance to buy the same story a
second time in the format I wanted in the first place.
If movies were expected to make all their money during the intial release
instead of waiting for DVD sales, we'd have nothing but unambitious, low-
budget films with second-tier actors.
If movie producers were coming onto Usenet and announcing, "if more people
don't see our movie in the theater, there may not be a DVD release," it
would be ridiculous. They accept that there's going to be an audience that
waits to rent it at home, and try to cater to both groups.
If material isn't strong enough to survive in two different formats, they
either need to produce stronger material, or take a close look at which
format is gaining ascendency, and make that the one format.
Dave Doty
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
R. Tang
Johanna Draper Carlson <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>
>If the publisher doesn't have the faith in their title to put it out in
>a different format that might bring it more success, then I'll go read
>books by those who do. Those publishers are, more often than not, NOT
>the big established companies, but the smaller, more nimble and
>adaptable ones.
It's always puzzling to me that the smaller publishers can
successfully make a go of this, yet DC and Marvel can't (or, more
probably, won't).
>Would it really be so bad if there was a weeding-out of titles, such
>that we had fewer but higher quality books to choose from?
That's called economics 101 (which is something that most posters
on Usenet have been taking remedial classes in for the last 10 years....).
--
-
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL][Yes, it IS new]
- http://www.aatrevue.com
R. Tang
David Doty <dsd...@earthlink.com> wrote:
>
>If movies were expected to make all their money during the intial release
>instead of waiting for DVD sales, we'd have nothing but unambitious, low-
>budget films with second-tier actors.
Instead of having unambitious, high budget films with third-tier
actors?
David Doty
@nntp3.u.washington.edu:
> Instead of having unambitious, high budget films with third-tier
> actors?
Sometimes. But sometimes, we have large-scale, breathtaking and well-acted
high-budget epics. Are you arguing that movies should be limited to a
budget than can allow for nothing but first releases? I can sense your
snark,but your point escapes me, unless it's that money is intrinsically
bad.
R. Tang
David Doty <dsd...@earthlink.com> wrote:
>gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote in news:bsvbrb$ocq$1
>@nntp3.u.washington.edu:
>
>> Instead of having unambitious, high budget films with third-tier
>> actors?
>
>Sometimes. But sometimes, we have large-scale, breathtaking and well-acted
>high-budget epics.
Well, more the former than the latter; things like LORD OF THE
RINGS are more the exception than the rule....
> Are you arguing that movies should be limited to a
>budget than can allow for nothing but first releases? I can sense your
>snark,but your point escapes me, unless it's that money is intrinsically
>bad.
The point IS the snark (and, no, I'm not making a resolution to be
less snarky), but a more serious side point is that money/economics are
often orthoganal to quality....
Shiflet
changing times or their days are numbered. I don't want them to perish but
the number of comics that I but in pamphlet form is now down to about five
titles.
"Johanna Draper Carlson" <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in
message news:johannaNOSPAM-93E...@news.fu-berlin.de...
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Johanna Draper Carlson <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
> >
> >If the publisher doesn't have the faith in their title to put it out in
> >a different format that might bring it more success, then I'll go read
> >books by those who do.
>
> successfully make a go of this, yet DC and Marvel can't (or, more
> probably, won't).
To be fair, DC and Marvel have a lot of overhead costs that two guys in
a garage don't.
Steven Grant also points out in his latest Permanent Damage,
http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=pd ,
that "With very few exceptions, only in corporate comics is there the
possibility of a steady income independent comics now pretty much
exist on the principle that talent should do other things to support
themselves and work on their comics in their spare time, with any pay
there is on the back end and the publisher paid first, and with very few
exceptions (specifically Avatar and Humanoids in my current experience)
it's hard to get checks out of those independent publishers that do
claim to pay an advance."
(His column is usually worth reading for this kind of clear-eyed
realism.)
David Doty
news:johannaNOSPAM-8B4...@news.fu-berlin.de:
> (His column is usually worth reading for this kind of clear-eyed
> realism.)
He's been my favorite online columnist for years, in the early days of his
old column.
Not only do I agree with your assessment, I'll add that he always has a
point. Even if it's not necessarily comics related, whatever he's saying
is a coherent argument, and an actual column, unlike some of the pointless
rambles (sometimes even admitted to be such) that made up so many
professionals' online columns.
He's actually changed my positions on some issues before.
Shiflet
"Johanna Draper Carlson" <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in
message news:johannaNOSPAM-8B4...@news.fu-berlin.de...
>
> To be fair, DC and Marvel have a lot of overhead costs that two guys in
> a garage don't.
>
seriously looking at preparing a transition strategy for the future. My
crystal ball doesn't tell me how long things can go on as they are, but I do
believe the time is nearing when major changes will need to occurr if they
are to survive. Believe me, I'm not fluent in the ways of business
management but I don't think one needs to be to see the writing on the wall.
> Steven Grant also points out in his latest Permanent Damage,
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=pd ,
> that "With very few exceptions, only in corporate comics is there the
> possibility of a steady income independent comics now pretty much
> exist on the principle that talent should do other things to support
> themselves and work on their comics in their spare time, with any pay
> there is on the back end and the publisher paid first, and with very few
> exceptions (specifically Avatar and Humanoids in my current experience)
> it's hard to get checks out of those independent publishers that do
> claim to pay an advance."
>
> (His column is usually worth reading for this kind of clear-eyed
> realism.)
>
I love the Grant column and read it every week. He nearly always provides
interesting insights and pro's eye view of the comic industry.
Dale Hicks
johann...@comicsworthreading.com says...
>
> Some have asked if we want nothing on the shelves but reprints, to which
> I have two responses:
> 1. if I haven't read it yet and it's enjoyable, why should I care
> whether it was originally created last year or last decade?
Well, there is a timliness factor involved, based on others' lukewarm
reactions to V FOR VENDETTA, WATCHMEN, and TDKR. Apparently living in the
cold war was something that was vital to the experience, and if you're not
familiar with the underpinnings of the story, it won't be enjoyable,
despite its potential to be.
> Would it really be so bad if there was a weeding-out of titles, such
> that we had fewer but higher quality books to choose from?
But is that going to survive, or will comics become only Batman, Spider-
Man and X-Men series? Will you weed out quality, or simply destroy
everything that doesn't appeal the the greatest common denominator?
--
Cranial Crusader dgh 1138 at bell south point net
James Schee
> Bookstore distribution and book-format comics are widening the medium to
> many new readers,
And also giving readers like myself who tired of the weekly grind going
to the comic shop had become (largely due to bad experiences, but there
was an inherent dislike for the process as well) an option.
As you say it is conveinant, allows one to try a better variety of
things and just seems more fulfilling to me anyway.
I shake my head at times at the people who seem to think reading trades
means you are betraying comics because some midling comic can't support
itself. I read comics for enjoyment, not as some act of charity.
If something can't find a way to support itself, then that is the
creator/publisher's fault for not putting it in a form that was of
interest to the audience. (be it a creative choice or format choice that
did so) No title has an inalienable right to be supported or published.
> Heck, I just started exploring manga, and I already have over 20 series
> on my targeted-to-try want list.
I have too! Not everything has been a hit for me, GTO, Kodacha and a few
others haven't worked out. Yet others like Between the Sheets and INVU
have really knocked my socks off and I'm really excited about sampling
new stuff.
James
--
http://scheesays.blogspot.com/
Yes I too have a comic blog.
Brian Hance
wrote:
>Well, there is a timliness factor involved, based on others' lukewarm
>reactions to V FOR VENDETTA, WATCHMEN, and TDKR. Apparently living in the
>cold war was something that was vital to the experience, and if you're not
>familiar with the underpinnings of the story, it won't be enjoyable,
>despite its potential to be.
I dunno, I think that while a lot of the subtext might be lost, I
think that those three stand the test of time, TDKR in particular.
The Cold War elements are the least strong in that. V actually
actually suffers the worst I think, if for no reason than some of the
technology dates it. Watchmen has the whole alternate history thing
going to back it up some. The only thing that TDKR loses is some of
the topical references.
I'd still rather read those three over and over again, rather than
like 90% of stuff on the shelves right now. But I'm an old man
though. :-)
--
Brian Hance
------------------------
"Excess ain't rebellion"
Johanna Draper Carlson
> johann...@comicsworthreading.com says...
> >
> > Some have asked if we want nothing on the shelves but reprints, to which
> > I have two responses:
> > 1. if I haven't read it yet and it's enjoyable, why should I care
> > whether it was originally created last year or last decade?
>
> Well, there is a timliness factor involved, based on others' lukewarm
> reactions to V FOR VENDETTA, WATCHMEN, and TDKR.
That's true, in some cases. But that can also be part of the enjoyment.
I like reading Archives in part for the same reason I enjoy watching
movies from the 30s -- seeing a different type of world and popular
culture.
> > Would it really be so bad if there was a weeding-out of titles, such
> > that we had fewer but higher quality books to choose from?
>
> But is that going to survive, or will comics become only Batman, Spider-
> Man and X-Men series? Will you weed out quality, or simply destroy
> everything that doesn't appeal the the greatest common denominator?
The greatest common denominator, based on current figures, isn't
superheroes -- it's manga. And that's much more diverse in genre and
audience.
Now, DC publications might be reduced to JLA, Superman, Batman, and
Sandman, but I don't think so, because they've always found ways to
experiment (Vertigo, Helix, Paradox, Focus), even if those experiments
didn't succeed. Two of the most acclaimed and good-selling original
graphic novels of the past year were Sandman Endless Nights and Orbiter.
Looking at another part of your question, X-Men's had a tremendous
success being written by Morrison. Quality drives greater sales.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Johanna Draper Carlson <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
> >Heck, I just started exploring manga, and I already have over 20 series
> >on my targeted-to-try want list.
>
> Of course, the irony here is that manga is full of wish fulfillment fantasies.
> They're not wish-fulfillment fantasies with codenames and costumes, of course,
> but basically the audience for One Piece and Dragonball Z is the same as the
> audience that Superman and Spiderman used to be for.
Those aren't the ones I'm reading, though. I'm reading Mars and Paradise
Kiss and Hot Gimmick and the works of Erica Sakurazawa. Now, those
romance stories are wish-fulfillment fantasies as well, but of a very
different sort.
And that's what's exciting to me about manga -- greater diversity, which
includes books targeted at someone like me. I feel like, for the first
time in my life, I'm a desirable comic reader to a publisher.
Sure, there are teenage boy power fantasies, as you point out, but
they're not hamstrung by being about 60-year-old characters.
Grey Wolf
<johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
> arro...@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote:
>> Johanna Draper Carlson <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>
>
>And that's what's exciting to me about manga -- greater diversity, which
>includes books targeted at someone like me. I feel like, for the first
>time in my life, I'm a desirable comic reader to a publisher.
>
Is there different kinds of manga artistically, or does it all have
that same kind of art style? Most of what I've seen, I do not care
for the art, and so I don't even find out what kind of stories are out
there.
Originally I was on the other side of this argument. I like having to
wait a month to read the next installment. I like going to the store
in anticipation of buying the comics and finding out what happens
next. I get discouraged when I hear of so many people waiting for the
trade because it might hurt sales and titles might get cancelled.
(However, this doesn't mean that these titles that are being "weeded
out" are any less quality than those that remain behind.) I have a
stupid love of the medium in the current format, and it saddens me to
give that up. It's the same kind of sadness a coin collector might
feel if we switched entirely to paper money.
However, I can see where the comic industry is in a bind and the TPB
format and selling at bookstores can help. If it reaches a larger
(and hopefully, more varied) audience, then diversity can flourish and
grow. Diversity does not mean the death of superheroes... diversity
means that superheroes can exist side by side with romance, westerns,
whatever. If bookstores and TPB's can break the stigma that comics
are only for male kids with wish-fulfillment fantasies, that is a good
thing.
Currently, there is a stigma. That stigma keeps most people away from
buying comics, so they have no idea that we already have a lot of
diverse titles to choose from. (However, I'll take Johanna's word
that it's not even close to being as diverse as it could be!) So the
majority of comic buyers (and this is evidenced by the sales rankings)
actually feed the stigma by purchasing superhero stuff. Sure we
purchase diverse titles too, but not nearly to the same level as the
superhero stuff. So the diverse titles struggle to remain afloat in
our current market, and they aren't by any means breaking through
(enough) to the non-comic buying market. So we're doomed to repeat
this trend.
Using the bookstores and TPB's, we have a chance to break that stigma.
Reaching more people with diverse tastes should allow for diversity to
flourish, and break the stigma of comics. I think the market would
need to switch to TPB's exclusively, because putting out comics in
both formats would only serve to split the audience (like it's doing
now) so that neither win. If a title is cancelled due to low sales
due to people waiting to buy the trade, neither the comic buyer or the
trade buyer wins. I would be OK to lose my favored format as long as
the medium survived.
A possible downside to this bookstore/TPB arguement is, eventually, it
all comes back to sales. So you might get a great amount of diversity
when the market explodes, but eventually it would settle back into
what sells the most is what will be published. If your romance trades
don't sell but your superheroes do, then eventually you'll just be
printing superheroes. Isn't this what happened to comics in the last
boom (after the war), where they had all of that variety and then
eventually the marketturned into just superheroes because that's where
the sales were? Wouldn't this just happen again when we switched to
book comics?
Johanna says that manga has a lot of diversity. I'm assuming that
it's because it's accepted by a very large audience of people, all
with different tastes. Does anyone see a point where manga is going
to settle into certain types of stories because those types sell
better?
And wouldn't that just be the same issue that we have today, just in a
different format?
I do see a few CONS about the TPB/bookstore market. For me as a
consumer, the only thing that I can see as a CON in putting out TPB's
into bookstores is that people who love the current comic format will
lose their favorited format. Excepting nostalgia, almost everything I
mentioned that I liked about the current format could be replaced by
similar feelings towards TPB's. Eventually I'd be buying x amount of
TPB's and waiting for the next month when I'd get x more TPB's... and
in 6 months (say) I'd get the next TPB to go after the ones I already
bought. So there is that sequentialness to it, and I could get
excited about going to the comic store (or book store) and buying
TPB's just like I can about comics today.
Also, kids could be hurt because they might not be able to afford
TPB's. So why not leave kid's comics in the current cheaper format
(IMO, it could be cheaper still), that way kids aren't shut out from
the comic book experience. Adults could buy the trades.
What about the publishers? Would you be able to cancel your trade in
time before losing tons of money? Do you pay your creators in
advance, or do they get a portion of sales? Maybe it's not any more
expensive (or even cheaper) to produce trades over single issues?
Sorry for making such a long post, this is actually my fourth attempt
at responding.
David
Ralf Haring
<phony...@phonyemail.com> wrote:
>
>Is there different kinds of manga artistically, or does it all have
>that same kind of art style? Most of what I've seen, I do not care
>for the art, and so I don't even find out what kind of stories are out
>there.
I think it is pretty diverse.
Lone Wolf & Cub doesn't look like Dragonball Z doesn't look like Akira
doesn't look like Uzumaki doesn't look like Ghost in the Shell ...
Here's a page from Comicsone.com that offers free samples of a bunch
of their books: http://www.comicsone.com/samplebook/freebook.html
>A possible downside to this bookstore/TPB arguement is, eventually, it
>all comes back to sales. So you might get a great amount of diversity
>when the market explodes, but eventually it would settle back into
>what sells the most is what will be published. If your romance trades
>don't sell but your superheroes do, then eventually you'll just be
>printing superheroes. Isn't this what happened to comics in the last
>boom (after the war), where they had all of that variety and then
>eventually the marketturned into just superheroes because that's where
>the sales were? Wouldn't this just happen again when we switched to
>book comics?
Hopefully the comics industry has learned from the mistakes of the
past and wouldn't voluntarily gut itself with a new comics code.
>Johanna says that manga has a lot of diversity. I'm assuming that
>it's because it's accepted by a very large audience of people, all
>with different tastes. Does anyone see a point where manga is going
>to settle into certain types of stories because those types sell
>better?
>
>And wouldn't that just be the same issue that we have today, just in a
>different format?
I don't think so. There will always be titles that are bestsellers.
Just because the latest John Grisham is always on the Top 10 list
doesn't mean there's a dearth of other books.
>Also, kids could be hurt because they might not be able to afford
>TPB's. So why not leave kid's comics in the current cheaper format
>(IMO, it could be cheaper still), that way kids aren't shut out from
>the comic book experience. Adults could buy the trades.
That's why there is seemingly so much success in printing the books in
smaller formats and in black and white. Those both help keep the costs
down so that a single 200-page pocket-sized volume costs around $10.
-Ralf Haring
"The mind must be the harder, the heart the keener,
the spirit the greater, as our strength grows less."
-Byrhtwold, The Battle of Maldon
James Moar
"Grey Wolf" <phony...@phonyemail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 07:48:41 -0500, Johanna Draper Carlson
> <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>
>> arro...@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote:
>>> Johanna Draper Carlson <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> And that's what's exciting to me about manga -- greater diversity, which
>> includes books targeted at someone like me. I feel like, for the first
>> time in my life, I'm a desirable comic reader to a publisher.
>>
>
> Is there different kinds of manga artistically, or does it all have
> that same kind of art style? Most of what I've seen, I do not care
> for the art, and so I don't even find out what kind of stories are out
> there.
Yes, there's variety, even if some stylistic traits do crop up a heck of a
lot.
Here's some links to let you see a lot of different artists' work:
http://www.tokyopop.com/books/manga.php -- along with the postage-stamp
shots on this page, most of the series have a few preview pages from the
TPBs.
http://www.shonenjump.com -- which shows a fair bit of variety within one
anthology for one audience. You can read some complete chapters here.
http://www.kodanclub.com -- try the "popular works", "promising works" and
"works" sections.
http://www.viz.com -- use the links down the right-hand side.
> Johanna says that manga has a lot of diversity. I'm assuming that
> it's because it's accepted by a very large audience of people, all
> with different tastes. Does anyone see a point where manga is going
> to settle into certain types of stories because those types sell
> better?
Is there a reason why it should be narrower than, say, film, TV, or prose
fiction? All those mediums support a variety of tastes, even if specific
tastes are served better or worse at particular times.
--
James Moar
Johanna Draper Carlson
> <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>
> >And that's what's exciting to me about manga -- greater diversity, which
> >includes books targeted at someone like me.
>
> that same kind of art style?
Just in the few books I've sampled in depth, I've noticed different art
styles, yes.
> Diversity does not mean the death of superheroes... diversity
> means that superheroes can exist side by side with romance, westerns,
> whatever.
Exactly. And in my ideal world, diversity applies to formats, as well.
So you could have the monthlies you enjoy, and I could have the book
comics I enjoy.
It's the creators and publishers who insist that waiting for the trade
is killing series who are trying to pit different types of fans against
each other. We don't need to buy into that, though.
> I think the market would need to switch to TPB's exclusively, because
> putting out comics in both formats would only serve to split the
> audience (like it's doing now)
I don't know that it is. There's some overlap, certainly, but there are
also large percentages of monthly buyers that don't buy collections, and
plenty of people who only buy book comics. The ideal would be to target
the appropriate audience with the appropriate format, and not to
conclude that a failure in one format means a failure in all.
> Also, kids could be hurt because they might not be able to afford
> TPB's.
Kids are the ones driving the manga boom in bookstores.
Grey Wolf
>>printing superheroes. Isn't this what happened to comics in the last
>>boom (after the war), where they had all of that variety and then
>>eventually the marketturned into just superheroes because that's where
>>the sales were? Wouldn't this just happen again when we switched to
>>book comics?
>
>Hopefully the comics industry has learned from the mistakes of the
>past and wouldn't voluntarily gut itself with a new comics code.
>
Was it the comics code that caused various genres (western, romance,
etc.) to eventually lose out to the superhero genre? Or was it
sales-driven?
David
Grey Wolf
<johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
> Grey Wolf <phony...@phonyemail.com> wrote:
>> <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>>
>> Diversity does not mean the death of superheroes... diversity
>> means that superheroes can exist side by side with romance, westerns,
>> whatever.
>
>Exactly. And in my ideal world, diversity applies to formats, as well.
>So you could have the monthlies you enjoy, and I could have the book
>comics I enjoy.
I'd like that. :-)
>
>It's the creators and publishers who insist that waiting for the trade
>is killing series who are trying to pit different types of fans against
>each other. We don't need to buy into that, though.
>
I wonder how one could tell just what kind of sales figures would have
come from people who were waiting for the trade? Meaning that, if
they would have bought the single comics, would the single sales be
enough to avoid cancellation?
Also, it seems to me that waiting for the trade would really only
negatively impact comics on the lower end of the sales charts (which,
unfortunately, seems to be where a lot of the diversity lies). Strong
sellers aren't going to get cancelled due to people waiting for the
trades, unless the balance tips to where drastically more people are
waiting for trades than are buying the single issues.
And wouldn't a publisher be happy whatever the format may be as long
as the print runs match the demand and everything sells? Unless they
are making more money on singles and that's why they're against going
to book comics? (That brings up another question for me: why would
creators be complaining about the format of their stories, as long as
they sell? Do they get paid less on TPB's? Are they worried about a
loss of interest in the collector's market?)
>> I think the market would need to switch to TPB's exclusively, because
>> putting out comics in both formats would only serve to split the
>> audience (like it's doing now)
>
>I don't know that it is. There's some overlap, certainly, but there are
>also large percentages of monthly buyers that don't buy collections, and
>plenty of people who only buy book comics. The ideal would be to target
>the appropriate audience with the appropriate format, and not to
>conclude that a failure in one format means a failure in all.
>
That makes more sense than what I was thinking. I was in the frame of
mind that "only one format will work" and by moving to book comics
100% would allow sales figures to properly reflect demand again,
rather than having a certain % missing due to people waiting for one
format or the other. You're right... both could work if the
publishers lower their expectations to expect proper levels for both
formats.
>> Also, kids could be hurt because they might not be able to afford
>> TPB's.
>
>Kids are the ones driving the manga boom in bookstores.
Interesting. Obviously I need to learn more about manga. So kids are
driving manga sales, and manga diversity is coming from... where? The
kids? I know in Japan manga is accepted by adults as well as kids,
and I can see that as a major force for diversity; wouldn't we need
that for our future book comics as well? Or am I missing something?
Thanks for bringing up this subject, it's really been interesting to
discuss.
David
Grey Wolf
wrote:
>
>Yes, there's variety, even if some stylistic traits do crop up a heck of a
>lot.
Thanks for the examples! :-)
>
>> Johanna says that manga has a lot of diversity. I'm assuming that
>> it's because it's accepted by a very large audience of people, all
>> with different tastes. Does anyone see a point where manga is going
>> to settle into certain types of stories because those types sell
>> better?
>
>Is there a reason why it should be narrower than, say, film, TV, or prose
>fiction? All those mediums support a variety of tastes, even if specific
>tastes are served better or worse at particular times.
Not at all, I'm just comparing it to our current "superhero-laden"
comic book market. Somehow this is where our market settled, and
although there is diversity, the major sellers are superhero books.
As a consumer, I don't really care if the stuff I like sells well or
not, except in the case that if it doesn't sell well, it could get
cancelled, and then I can't enjoy it. As a producer, I'd want sales
to be high for profits. So the best for both is to have high sales.
If a diverse number of comics can be sold at good levels, diversity
can be maintained. But if certain genres won out, you'd end up with
most producers aiming for that genre... and maybe even the main genre
being associated to the medium over time.
I know there will always be producers that fill the niches... with
film, Hollywood movies are supposed to be the "mainstream market"
extravaganza and indy films are where you find the diversity and gems.
Even though a lot of the indy films aren't finanical succeses, they
continue to be made; just not on the scale of Hollywood. In my mind,
these indies are bucking the market - they're not in it to make a
bucketload of money. It's probably the same for prose fiction, and
could be the same for comics too. Sure there can be diversity, but
will it ever be on even ground?
Anyway, those are just thoughts, probably not even sound ones.
David
Ralf Haring
<phony...@phonyemail.com> wrote:
>
>And wouldn't a publisher be happy whatever the format may be as long
>as the print runs match the demand and everything sells? Unless they
>are making more money on singles and that's why they're against going
>to book comics?
There are different costs involved. They don't have to pay to produce
the work anymore with a collection, but they do have to pay to
warehouse the books and whatever royalty deals were worked out with
the creators.
>(That brings up another question for me: why would
>creators be complaining about the format of their stories, as long as
>they sell? Do they get paid less on TPB's? Are they worried about a
>loss of interest in the collector's market?)
Some creators may not have good deals on republishings of their
material.
Ralf Haring
<phony...@phonyemail.com> wrote:
>
>Was it the comics code that caused various genres (western, romance,
>etc.) to eventually lose out to the superhero genre? Or was it
>sales-driven?
It was partly introduced to kill off a major publisher that was
pushing the envelope (and gaining sales) at the time. Almost none of
their books were acceptable under the code while the majority of the
superhero books were untouched.
It also represents a failure of the industry to properly stand up for
itself to a government that was going on a witch hunt.
Andrew Stephenson
johann...@comicsworthreading.com "Johanna Draper Carlson"
writes:
> It's the creators and publishers who insist that waiting for
> the trade is killing series who are trying to pit different
> types of fans against each other. We don't need to buy into
> that, though.
Hmm... Is "trying to pit different types of fans against each
other" truly warranted? Sounds hyperbolical to me, at least in
reference to creators. (Can't speak for them pesky publishers.)
As mentioned in the past, the economics of being a comics creator
on a creator-owned serial work and a c-o TPB are very different,
a fact of life which hardly seems to invite such an accusation.
It's not up to your usual rhetorical standard, J. ;-)
--
Andrew Stephenson
Johanna Draper Carlson
> johann...@comicsworthreading.com "Johanna Draper Carlson" writes:
>
> > It's the creators and publishers who insist that waiting for
> > the trade is killing series who are trying to pit different
> > types of fans against each other.
>
> other" truly warranted?
As far as I know, what started this particular round was Peter David
posting on comicon saying that people who wait for the trade are killing
good series. This caused some fans to jump in saying "yeah, they're
just saying 'F--- You' to publishers and other readers. They're not real
fans."
So yeah, in this case, I think it is warranted. When a creator seems to
be saying to one group that "those people over there are putting it in
danger", that seems to be pitting some readers against others.
--
Johanna Draper Carlson
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Newly updated: Reviews of Mia, Dr. Tim, Malinky Robot, Vampirella,
plus 2003 Review Archive
Johanna Draper Carlson
> why would creators be complaining about the format of their stories,
> as long as they sell?
The ones you usually see complaining are the ones whose books are
mid-list or lower, thus in danger during the paradigm shift.
But there's two ways to do it: the Brubaker way -- "Hey, lots of you
said you were waiting for the trade, and now it's out, so now's the time
to check it out" -- and the David way -- "I've got a trade coming out,
but you people waiting for it are killing good comics". :)
> kids are driving manga sales, and manga diversity is coming from...
> where? The kids? I know in Japan manga is accepted by adults as
> well as kids, and I can see that as a major force for diversity;
Yeah, that's a large part of it. A widespread acceptance of anthologies
for cheap reading helps as well -- the manga books we see here were
often serialized first, but we rarely see that format. (Although the
success of Shonen Jump here is the most prominent counter-example.)
--
Johanna Draper Carlson
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Joe Ankenbauer
message news:johannaNOSPAM-8C5...@news.fu-berlin.de...
> > > It's the creators and publishers who insist that waiting for
> > > the trade is killing series who are trying to pit different
> > > types of fans against each other.
> >
> > Hmm... Is "trying to pit different types of fans against each
> > other" truly warranted?
>
> As far as I know, what started this particular round was Peter David
> posting on comicon saying that people who wait for the trade are killing
> good series. This caused some fans to jump in saying "yeah, they're
> just saying 'F--- You' to publishers and other readers. They're not real
> fans."
>
> So yeah, in this case, I think it is warranted. When a creator seems to
> be saying to one group that "those people over there are putting it in
> danger", that seems to be pitting some readers against others.
I've seen the same type of argument made when I mention that I buy almost
all my "big-ticket" items (e.g., DC Archives, Marvel Masterworks, etc.)
through the mail. People accuse me of hurting my local comic book shops.
However, as it has been mentioned, my job as a consumer is to do what is
best for me. If that means buying a DC Archive from Amazon.com for $35 (with
free shipping) versus buying it from my local comic book shop for $53.45
(including sales tax), so be it. It's not my job to keep my local comic book
store in business.
The number of series that I now buy are dwindling. In the past, I used to
create "virtual TPBs." In other words, I would not read the issues of a
series or a mini-series until the entire story was completed. That made me
realize that I could do the same thing by just reading the TPB, often at a
cost less than the buying the issues themselves. There would no longer be a
need to bag and store these comics, and it's much easier to carry around a
TPB compared to six comic books.
I'm with Johanna on this one. If the major publishers (DC and Marvel) don't
want to cater to my desires, I'll just read something else. It's not like
that super-hero comics are the only reading material that I'm interested in.
JMA
Kevin J. Maroney
<johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>With very few exceptions, only in corporate comics is there the
>possibility of a steady income independent comics now pretty much
>exist on the principle that talent should do other things to support
In other words, comics creators are being asked to live like
novelists. Oh, the humanity!
--
Kevin J. Maroney | k...@panix.com © 2003 by Kevin J. Maroney
"Love doesn't have a point. Love *is* the point."--Alan Moore
If you are reading this message on the "Comics-N-Such" message boards,
know that it has been copied onto that forum without my permission.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> However, as it has been mentioned, my job as a consumer is to do what is
> best for me. If that means buying a DC Archive from Amazon.com for $35 (with
> free shipping) versus buying it from my local comic book shop for $53.45
> (including sales tax), so be it. It's not my job to keep my local comic book
> store in business.
That's true. Now, in my case, my local shop would probably let me open
the shrink-wrap and browse an Archive I wasn't sure about, so that's
another service that makes the transaction about more than just price
for me. But yeah, all consumers should balance what they get out of the
deal (product, service, etc.) with what their cost is for the deal
(price, long-term effects, etc.).
Brian Henderson
<johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>Yeah, that's a large part of it. A widespread acceptance of anthologies
>for cheap reading helps as well -- the manga books we see here were
>often serialized first, but we rarely see that format. (Although the
>success of Shonen Jump here is the most prominent counter-example.)
In Japan, you really don't see many, if any manga that aren't
serialized first in a large number of Jump-style magazines. You
notice that's what VIZ is doing in the US now, re-releasing the
compilations of what they've done in Shonen Jump and expecting readers
to buy the same stories again in a more 'collectable' format. While
Shonen Jump has been successful, it just doesn't make much money for
VIZ. With paper costs being what they are, the few cents they save on
newsprint over a regular manga aren't enough to make up for the price
differential. It's no wonder that there are tons of companies putting
out manga at $8-12 each, but not many putting out Jump-style
anthologies at $6.
David Doty
@okepread03:
> I've seen the same type of argument made when I mention that I buy almost
> all my "big-ticket" items (e.g., DC Archives, Marvel Masterworks, etc.)
> through the mail. People accuse me of hurting my local comic book shops.
> However, as it has been mentioned, my job as a consumer is to do what is
> best for me.
True. I do think having a comics shop close to me is a positive, so I do
try to patronize my shop when reasonably possible. But for big ticket
items like Archives, the cost difference is too much for me to justify
spending the extra money.
In fact, my comics shop in my old city knew I was doing this, and
understood completely.
Manticore
> Kids are the ones driving the manga boom in bookstores.
Well, seems normal enough: a lot of mangas titles being translated in the
West are geared toward kids. I'm not sure who most comic books these days
are geared to. Do you think the latest FF or DD are meant for twelve-years
old kids? Those are the ones who used to buy comics decades ago. And most
good Silver Age books, while being enjoyable to older readers were primarily
aimed at young teenagers and pre-teens.
Now, you've got these weird in-betweens books which are too juvenile for
adult readers, and too adult for younger readers.
DRAGONBALL is for young kids: it's exciting, it's fun (well, more in the
early parts of the saga!), so kids love it. Sounds logical to me...
Patrick
--
"We make me sick!" - Third Planet from the Sun
Joe Ankenbauer
news:Xns94649B04...@216.65.98.28...
> > I've seen the same type of argument made when I mention that I buy
almost
> > all my "big-ticket" items (e.g., DC Archives, Marvel Masterworks, etc.)
> > through the mail. People accuse me of hurting my local comic book shops.
> > However, as it has been mentioned, my job as a consumer is to do what is
> > best for me.
>
> True. I do think having a comics shop close to me is a positive, so I do
> try to patronize my shop when reasonably possible. But for big ticket
> items like Archives, the cost difference is too much for me to justify
> spending the extra money.
I live in Council Bluffs, which is right across the river from Omaha,
Nebraska. Council Bluffs has one comic book store, while Omaha has at least
six that I know of (although four of them consist of two shops with two
different locations). The service (or lack thereof) that I received at the
Council Bluffs store made me swear off ever going back. It was about this
time that I found out about ordering comics through the mail. Being able to
buy a $2.50 comic for $1.75 using mail-order versus paying $2.68 (including
sales tax) in Omaha was a no-brainer decision. Besides saving close to a
dollar per book, I also save the time and gas money needed to drive over to
Omaha. Yes, some of the savings is eaten up by shipping costs, but at my new
mail order service (G-Mart Comic Store - http://www.g-mart.com/), I get free
shipping on orders over $85. Since I don't order near that much, I was able
to specify that I want my shipments held until shipping is free.
The only drawback to buying comics through mail order is that I don't get
the immediate gratification of reading a book the day it comes out. However,
at my age (mid-40s), immediate gratification is highly over-rated. I've been
ordering comics through the mail for over twenty years (started in the early
1980s with Westfield Comics) and I've yet to have a problem with an order
that wasn't readily solved. For all the people who are complaining about the
high price of comics, I sincerely suggest you look into the various
mail-order companies. I have dealt with the following:
Westfield Comics (http://www.westfieldcomics.com/)
I stopped using them when they decreased discounts.
M & M Comic Service (http://www.mmcomics.com/)
I stopped using them when I found out about G-Mart's free shipping.
Discounts are about the same as G-Mart.
G-Mart Comic Store (http://www.g-mart.com/)
This is the service that I currently use. I have placed two orders with them
(January 2004 and February 2004). I guess I can't really comment on their
service, but they came highly recommended.
JMA
Steven Rowe
Draper Carlson <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> writes:
>But to someone who got into collecting comics because he loved the
>wish-fulfillment fantasies and was thrilled to find a group of fans just
>like him, that diversity can be scary.
geeze, it's comments like this that make me feel old...
comics used to be widely diverse.
You went out to the newstand or drug store, and looked at comics, you saw
funny animals, little kids, romance, westerns,military-war, automobiles, teen
humor, fantasy - horror, all together. something for everyone.
and what the heck is wrong with that?
steven rowe (old enough to be grouchy and recall the so-called "good old days'
and who also recalls being able to buy ALL the adventure non-humor comics, and
some of the humor books - just by using his school lunch money - so it wasnt
pefect by then)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
Don't forget to Delete "Unspam" if you wish to e- mail me.
join the FelixTheCat list at www.yahoogroups.com
.
Shiflet
a stack of books that ran the gamut from Jughead, Twilight Zone, Doctor
Solar, Our Army at War, House of Mystery, Batman and Fantastic Four. Great
days indeed!
"Steven Rowe" <srowe...@aol.comUnspam> wrote in message
news:20040102223412...@mb-m03.aol.com...
Erik Veit
> If movies were expected to make all their money during the intial release
> instead of waiting for DVD sales, we'd have nothing but unambitious, low-
> budget films with second-tier actors.
I think comics are a bit different from movies. Except for LOTR, you get a
whole story in a single "issue".
Ongoing comics are more similar to soaps (for kids (mostly)). Try again using
that model.
zombie
--
Erik Veit ------------------------------------------------------ Dublin, CA
"To be a Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's
mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the union, a passport to
any foreign country, and a benediction from the almighty God." --anonymous
Erik Veit
> It's the creators and publishers who insist that waiting for the trade
> is killing series who are trying to pit different types of fans against
> each other. We don't need to buy into that, though.
Maybe it is the issue of the companies being public (stockholders) that is
causing the problem.
If the company needs to worry about quarterly statements, it enforces very
short term thinking (monthly revenue). Private companies can have longer
vision (funds permitting).
How can one easily support paying an artist for a TPB this quarter, when it
will take a year or more to publish it?
zombie
P.S. Notice how most manga books in the US (VIZ, TOKYO POP) have gone to TPB
format?
P.P.S HEY! All this manga talk, and no one is talking up *Maison Ikkoku*?!
Michael Lehmeier
> David Doty wrote:
>
>> If movies were expected to make all their money during the intial release
>> instead of waiting for DVD sales, we'd have nothing but unambitious, low-
>> budget films with second-tier actors.
>
> I think comics are a bit different from movies. Except for LOTR, you get a
> whole story in a single "issue".
Or Kill Bill.
Trend starting?
--
Lehmeier Michael (Nightshade Dragon UDIC)
"Oamai am Meddla, imma a Meddla"
Thomas Moser - motto "Tough Stuff"
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Maybe it is the issue of the companies being public (stockholders) that is
> causing the problem.
> If the company needs to worry about quarterly statements, it enforces very
> short term thinking (monthly revenue). ...
> How can one easily support paying an artist for a TPB this quarter, when it
> will take a year or more to publish it?
The same way all the other publishers do it.
DC's done enough original graphic novels at this point that they should
have no problem, not to mention that Warner Books and even Warner movies
provide models for longer-term projects.
Marvel's been in worse shape, with the bankruptcy and all, but even so,
they've paid artists for miniseries that they haven't published or
published years later, so they also have a model available.
--
Johanna Draper Carlson
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Newly updated: Reviews - Aprendiz,Conversation,Paul Has a Summer Job
Andrew Stephenson
m_leh...@gmx.de "Michael Lehmeier" writes:
> On 2004-01-09, Erik Veit <erik...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > David Doty wrote:
> >
> > > If movies were expected to make all their money during the
> > > intial release instead of waiting for DVD sales, we'd have
> > > nothing but unambitious, low- budget films with second-tier
> > > actors.
> >
> > I think comics are a bit different from movies. Except for
> > LOTR, you get a whole story in a single "issue".
>
> Or Kill Bill.
> Trend starting?
It started years ago. The flight of good material, away from TV
that is distributed generally, into channels obtainable only by
paying a premium, is happening. Convenient technologies like DVD
let us enjoy our watching free of commercials, trailers, digital
onscreen graphics or any of the other devices which broadcasters
use to degrade their increasingly tawdry offerings.
For the kind of stuff one is prepared to sit and watch without
developing a craving for a personal copy, rental services give
reasonable service. We already have direct-to-rental material
whose quality is not low. D2R could become an attractive habit,
especially if electronic delivery has the awkwardnesses ironed
out of it.
Is it inconceivable that comics could go the same way? IMHO, no.
--
Andrew Stephenson
Michael Pastor
"Michael Lehmeier" <m_leh...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:slrnbvsvae.2...@radom.de...
> On 2004-01-09, Erik Veit <erik...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > David Doty wrote:
> >
> >> If movies were expected to make all their money during the intial
release
> >> instead of waiting for DVD sales, we'd have nothing but unambitious,
low-
> >> budget films with second-tier actors.
> >
> > I think comics are a bit different from movies. Except for LOTR, you
get a
> > whole story in a single "issue".
>
> Or Kill Bill.
> Trend starting?
Starting? Just in my lifetime, it started as long ago as 1977 with Star
Wars...
michael j pastor