The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down
cheg
told me that he will have to go out of business in a couple of weeks.
That's a real loss because he runs a very capable and responsive LBS.
Everyone in the area that can should try to get over there and give
him some business as soon as you can. It may not be too late to save
the business.
PS. I am not connected in any way with the Bikesmith, just a
concerned customer.
Billy Bigelow
"cheg" <spam...@communistcast.net>
> I was talking to Val Kleitz at the Bikesmith in Seattle today and he
> told me that he will have to go out of business in a couple of weeks.
> That's a real loss because he runs a very capable and responsive LBS.
> Everyone in the area that can should try to get over there and give
> him some business as soon as you can. It may not be too late to save
> the business.
>
> http://www.thebikesmith.com
That would be a big loss. I hope he can figure out a way to keep the doors
open. I've take my bike business there in the past.
fini
smiles
news:100f1vu...@corp.supernews.com...
> > I was talking to Val Kleitz at the Bikesmith in Seattle today and he
> > told me that he will have to go out of business in a couple of weeks.
>
doors
> open. I've take my bike business there in the past.
>
Welcome to the state of almost every bike shop in the nation ... we are
being squeezed on both ends. Our entry level customer is going to WallyMart
and getting such a POS that in most cases the never get into it. Our high
end customers are going to the internet ... I just sold a XTR derailleur at
cost to get the biz away from mail order. The sad thing with mail order is
the customer service sucks and if there are problems you are hosed ... and
in most cases you don't save much (if anything) ... it's just the perception
that MO has great prices since their Shimano stuff is half of the LBS ...
The riders who support MO and complain their LBS is going away ... needs to
look into the mirror and blame themselves. If your LBS cannot get you the
parts ... then go MO ... not the other way.
jeffbonny
<csmi...@removethisboardnbike.com> wrote:
>The riders who support MO and complain their LBS is going away ... needs to
>look into the mirror and blame themselves. If your LBS cannot get you the
>parts ... then go MO ... not the other way.
>
>s
>http://boardnbike.com
When newbies ask me about where to buy I always tell 'em to pick a
shop they like 'cause THAT'S what they're really buying. Too bad more
people don't get it.
When you think of all the good advice you've gotten from yer LBS ain't
it gonna be the shits not to have 'em around when that piece-o crap
you just got in the mail from Bikes-Are-Us don't work so good?
Fuckin' think about it you cheap bastards.
NO, REALLY THINK ABOUT IT, THE ADVICE YOU GET FROM A GOOD
SHOP WILL SAVE YOU MORE THAN YOU WILL SAVE SHOPPING MO.
okay?
This opinion brought to you from just one more poor bastard who spent
years and money to find out what every LBS knows...
jb
Mikael Seierup
ploink.wav
jeffbonny
I don't think inappropriate in this case.
ding.wav yerself.
G.T.
"jeffbonny" <jeff...@REMCAPSshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:54sf005glig5fshiv...@4ax.com...
>
> NO, REALLY THINK ABOUT IT, THE ADVICE YOU GET FROM A GOOD
> SHOP WILL SAVE YOU MORE THAN YOU WILL SAVE SHOPPING MO.
> okay?
>
I CAN'T REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I GOT GOOD ADVICE FROM A SHOP (OTHER THAN
HARRIS CYCLERY, AND IT'S CLEAR ACROSS THE COUNTRY)! I THINK IT MAY HAVE
BEEN 1987 WHEN THE LBS SUGGESTED THAT I REPLACE MY 1974 SEARS FREE SPIRIT 10
SPEED AND GET A MTN BIKE FOR OFF-ROADING. THOSE STEEL RIMS DIDN'T STOP ME
VERY WELL AND THE SHOP WAS GETTING TIRED OF TRACKING DOWN FORKS FOR THE FREE
SPIRIT. I'M STILL USING THE DROP BARS FROM THAT BIKE TO DO THIS DAY!!!
okay,
GREG!
jeffbonny
wrote:
>I CAN'T REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I GOT GOOD ADVICE FROM A SHOP (OTHER THAN
>HARRIS CYCLERY, AND IT'S CLEAR ACROSS THE COUNTRY)! I THINK IT MAY HAVE
>BEEN 1987 WHEN THE LBS SUGGESTED THAT I REPLACE MY 1974 SEARS FREE SPIRIT 10
>SPEED AND GET A MTN BIKE FOR OFF-ROADING. THOSE STEEL RIMS DIDN'T STOP ME
>VERY WELL AND THE SHOP WAS GETTING TIRED OF TRACKING DOWN FORKS FOR THE FREE
>SPIRIT. I'M STILL USING THE DROP BARS FROM THAT BIKE TO DO THIS DAY!!!
>
>okay,
>GREG!
>
You wanna throw the baby out with the bath water go ahead.
There are a few good shops and sometimes you just got keep trying till
ya find it.
jb
Carl Fogel
Dear Jeff,
Perhaps WalMart and the internet bicycle-parts stores
have a slightly different attitude toward their customers
than some unfortunate local bike shops?
"Fuckin' think about it you cheap bastards."
The customers may be neither as numerous, interested, or
unhappy as you wish. This is why it's so hard to make a
living running a bicycle shop. You need a lot of people
who live nearby, dote upon bicycles, and want lots of
advice and mechanical help.
An astonishing number of people manage to run their own
office computers quite happily and successfully without
paying consultants like me. They are often sensible, practical
people--and cursing them and calling them cheap bastards
seems unlikely to encourage them to call me.
Carl Fogel
Just zis Guy, you know?
wrote:
>An astonishing number of people manage to run their own
>office computers quite happily and successfully without
>paying consultants like me. They are often sensible, practical
>people--and cursing them and calling them cheap bastards
>seems unlikely to encourage them to call me.
What the hell, though, it's worth a try. It's not like the cheap
bastards are customers now, is it? ;-)
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
Andrew Martin
The fact that SuperGo opened their shop 3 blocks down across I-5 can't
be helping his business. The thing is, his market was so focused on
the obscure stuff that people buying a $4000 giant OCR wouldn't really
effect him.
I worked with Val for about a year - one of the truely cool bike guys
in Seattle. I always wondered about his shop - he was such a good
mechanic but such a bad merchandiser. When you shopped at BikeSmith,
you went for the obscure part, the custom Jurry-Rig, or just for a
story.
-a
jeffbonny
wrote:
>Dear Jeff,
>
>Perhaps WalMart and the internet bicycle-parts stores
>have a slightly different attitude toward their customers
>than some unfortunate local bike shops?
>
>"Fuckin' think about it you cheap bastards."
>
>The customers may be neither as numerous, interested, or
>unhappy as you wish. This is why it's so hard to make a
>living running a bicycle shop. You need a lot of people
>who live nearby, dote upon bicycles, and want lots of
>advice and mechanical help.
>
>An astonishing number of people manage to run their own
>office computers quite happily and successfully without
>paying consultants like me. They are often sensible, practical
>people--and cursing them and calling them cheap bastards
>seems unlikely to encourage them to call me.
>
>Carl Fogel
Point taken and apologies to all.
It's an emotional issue for me as I tried for five years to make a
living with my own shop and have worked in several others.
During that time I saw over and over people coming in with a part they
saved a few bucks buying from Nashbar or the like trying to grind the
labour to install it down past the break even point or wanting free
advice on installing it. Or even worse buying it mail order for the
same price I coulda done it for if they'd asked.
More important though the bike shop has been a social scene my whole
life from learning to road race in my early teens through the birth of
the mtb coming full circle to my "rootsy" devotion to single speeds
the past decade.
What mail order don't got:
The training rides that left from the shop. The support for young
racers.The bbq going out back with the sales reps. Hanging out on
rainy winter days watching vids of Kelly descending into San Remo
kicking Italian ass. Tweaking bikes with the bros after hours the
night before a race or big ride. The knowledge gained from a customer
like Bob who'd ridden in two Tours. Building wheels for someone who
goes on to win a Rainbow Jersey on 'em.
And I could go on...
What happens to all this when the shop is gone?
It hurts me to think that the source of so much satisfaction and
knowledge and lore is disappearing at an alarming rate, that there
will be no place to spawn the next generation of riders and mechanics.
It's about so much more than setting the bike up and making the pedals
go 'round but if you don't get I guess you just don't get it.
bones
deep cove.bc.ca
Jonesy
Jeff:
From reading your other post, I understand how you might be
frustrated. Let me tell you a story of one customer:
He grew up riding bicycles everywhere, and aside from a laspe in
college, has ridden bicycles of one kind or another for nearly 40
years. In that time, he has almost always taken his bikes to LBSs to
get them repaired or upgraded. Then he comes upon a pair of towns 10
miles apart that have a total of 6 bike shops. Being the careful
consumer, he always wants to get as much info as possible before
buying, and also wants to make sure he's paying a fair price. Imagine
his consternation at hearing all sorts of bike mythology coming out of
the mouths of the babes that were in the employ of these shops.
Add to this the incessant pressure to buy stuff that on the shelf,
whether or not it's applicable to the issue at hand. Or on hearing
that if he wants to upgrade his beater, that he should just buy a new
bike instead. Is this the kind of LBS that he should support?
Now, if you have not already surmised, I am the person in this
third-person tale. In the course of two years, I went from not doing
any of my own work, and buying everything (parts and labor) from my
LBS, to buying on-line and doing all my own work. Because of the
wonderful simplicity of the bicycle, it is relatively simple to
diagnose and repair most every ailment. And because there are
wonderful written materials available, even a novice could learn how
to do the most seemingly complicated work, with the proper tools. For
example, if you wish to build a wheel, purchase or borrow _The Bicycle
Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt. If you don't want to do that, Sheldon Brown's
instructions are just as clear, and free for all who have an Internet
connection.
Why, if I have the tools, should I suffer my LBS to build a wheel for
me for $100, plus the price of the materials? If I had only been
accumulating tools, instead of going to LBSs to get my bikes fixed, I
could do all but the most fantastically esoteric bike repairs. And
BTW, the LBSs here can't do them either, because they don't have the
tools or expertise, or both. In addition, I would have enough
experience to put half of these college kids they employ as wrenches
out of minimum-wage work.
In the end, it was not because I was a "cheap bastard," but because I
wanted the job done right, without the pressure to buy the latest
widget, and because I was willing to educate myself on how the things
are done, and where to get the info to do them. The money I save by
using mail order is really small potatoes in comparison to the
frustration I save by not having to go to these shops. And they
aren't going anywhere soon - with a state university in each town,
they have a huge captive customer base.
Frankly, if I had ever gotten anything like good advice from the local
bike shops, I would still buy stuff from them. As it is, I refuse to
buy so much as a patch kit from these folks. While I think it's sad
that a good place goes down the tubes, I wouldn't blink if the local
places folded. The really shitty thing is this: now that I know how
to do my own work, it's unlikely that any LBS will get my business
unless I absolutely cannot do a task myself, or I find a place where
they don't turn their noses up if I don't lay down multiple thousands
for the latest wheeled sculpture on their showroom floor.
With regards,
R. F. Jones
jeffbonny
snip
>Frankly, if I had ever gotten anything like good advice from the local
>bike shops, I would still buy stuff from them. As it is, I refuse to
>buy so much as a patch kit from these folks.
With you all the way man. Going into a shop knowing what I want and
why I want it it's hard to take some kid that was swimming around in
his ol' man's bag when I was hammering 3000km a month feed me a line
of crap. Why should a shop like that get your money?
They shouldn't.
Upon further reflection it's probably places like you describe that
are more responsible for putting the good ones outta business than are
MO houses. The MOs may be a reflection of the problem as much as it's
cause.
I'm done.
jb
Zoot Katz
<ougg00h3ir82qd1od...@4ax.com>,
jeffbonny <jeff...@REMCAPSshaw.ca> wrote:
>What mail order don't got:
Soul.
--
zk
the outfitter
to the landlord in 2 weeks and selling anything and everything he can.
Sorry dude.
E
"cheg" <spam...@communistcast.net> wrote in message
news:zpKNb.63885$sv6.144386@attbi_s52...
HardwareLust
news:%4SNb.2305$%86....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> "Billy Bigelow" <nom...@thank.you> wrote in message
> news:100f1vu...@corp.supernews.com...
<snip>
> The sad thing with mail order is
> the customer service sucks and if there are problems you are hosed ... and
> in most cases you don't save much (if anything) ...
That is not entirely true. I've dealt with a couple of mail order shops
that have supreme customer service, and have gone out of their way to help
me buy what I needed. Colorado Cyclist, Excel, Jenson, Cambria, and yes,
even Supergo have been guilty of providing me with good customer service.
Notice I did not mention Performance.
Let us not forget, that many of the MO houses began as, or are, real B&M
bike shops. Cambria, Jenson, Colorado Cyclist, Excel Sports to name just a
few. I believe Supergo was also a B&M store when they began down in LA.
There are many others that I am sure that I am forgetting.
And saving? Let's take the pedals I just bought yesterday. The only local
shop that had them in stock (a shop I don't particularly like anyway) wanted
$110.00 plus tax for the pair, which makes a grand total of $119 and some
change in my neck of the woods. Jenson USA had the exact same pedals, in
stock, and sent them to me via overnight FEDEX for $79 total. Think about
that. I saved a whopping *$40* on my pedals, and that's with the shipping
thrown in. If I could have waited a week (which I couldn't), I could have
saved FIFTY dollars total. Think about that... That's a tremendous amount
of savings, to the tune of, what about 40%?...and you say I don't save much,
if anything? 40% is a LOT of money to save.
I even thought about this before I bought them. If those pedals had been
even $10 or $15 more than Jenson, I would have happily bought them at the
store, for all the good reasons y'all have mentioned in this thread, but
c'mon...you expect me to spend 40% more of my hard earned money for some
occasional good advice (which admittedly is getting harder and harder to
find these days)? That's a tough one to swallow.
JayofMontreal
over by the US distributors. They based their prices on a very weak Canadian
dollar which means that items here are massively overpriced compared to the
USA.
The LBS philosophy is: "You aren't just paying for the bike, you're paying
for service".
IMHO, this is a load of self serving crap. When a newbie's derailleur is out
of adjustment, or they can't get those reflectors off the LBS is happy to
assist, what is that service worth $5 $10, generally the out of adjustment
aspect is due to cable stretch because its a new bike.
In these modern days, things tend to wear out or break, problems on bikes
tend to be catastrophic or turning an adjustment screw. The idea of paying a
30% premium on a $3000.00 bike for the privledge of getting $20 worth of
service is ridiculous.
My vision of the LBS would be this: Prices near competitive with mail order,
bikes sold near cost, however, you pay for the setup, and delivery of your
bike. Like PDI and freight on cars. At the same time, you could buy an
extended warranty which would cover things like theft, accidents. The LBS
then could be making piles of dough by having exclusions, deductibles and
the likes. Just imagine if they could make continuous money on every bike
they sell?
If the LBS business model doesn't work because of the internet, its time to
change the model.
--
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Zippy the Pinhead
<outloo...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>What the hell, though, it's worth a try. It's not like the cheap
>bastards are customers now, is it? ;-)
If you weren't a Marketing major, you've missed your calling. That's
the major in one sentence.
Reco Diver
> news:100f1vu...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > I was talking to Val Kleitz at the Bikesmith in Seattle today and he
> > > told me that he will have to go out of business in a couple of weeks.
> >
> > That would be a big loss. I hope he can figure out a way to keep the
> doors
> > open. I've take my bike business there in the past.
> >
>
> Welcome to the state of almost every bike shop in the nation ... we are
> being squeezed on both ends. Our entry level customer is going to WallyMart
> and getting such a POS that in most cases the never get into it. Our high
> end customers are going to the internet ... I just sold a XTR derailleur at
> cost to get the biz away from mail order. The sad thing
<snip>
The sad thing is that you caved on your price. Now you have a customer
that thinks you are either price gouging or pulling your prices out of
your ... hat.
Next time try this: Price match, then add $17.50 and tell the customer
that it's for shipping. After you get the money, put the derailleur
back on the shelf and tell him he can have it in 3 or 4 days. When he
starts to whine, tell him that for another $5.00 he can have it
tomarrow. (If the customer has not come across the counter at you) Go
ahead and give him a derailleur. Pick the closest derailluer to you,
not the XTR he paid for. When the customer complains that it isn't the
correct derailluer, tell him that if he will pay the $17.50 (insured)
to send it back to you, you will gladly send him the correct
deraileur. When the customer hands (or throws) the derailuer back to
you. Look at your monitor for a few moments, scroll a couple of pages,
and tell him that it appears that you are now curently out of stock on
the requested item, but that you will gladly backorder one for him. At
this point (if the police haven't arrived) take the original XTR
derraileur remove it from its box, remove all installation
instructions and materials, wrap it in the piece of plastic wrap (left
over from the peanut butter sandwich you had for lunch). and hand it
to your customer. Smil,e wish him a nice day, and remind him that
"Price is not always the Point."
R
bentbiker
whenever possible, and if he carried bents, i'd do more.
onefred
news:%4SNb.2305$%86....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> news:100f1vu...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > I was talking to Val Kleitz at the Bikesmith in Seattle today and he
> > > told me that he will have to go out of business in a couple of weeks.
> >
> > That would be a big loss. I hope he can figure out a way to keep the
> doors
> > open. I've take my bike business there in the past.
> >
>
> Welcome to the state of almost every bike shop in the nation ... we are
> being squeezed on both ends. Our entry level customer is going to
WallyMart
> and getting such a POS that in most cases the never get into it. Our high
> end customers are going to the internet ... I just sold a XTR derailleur
at
> cost to get the biz away from mail order. The sad thing with mail order is
> the customer service sucks and if there are problems you are hosed ... and
> in most cases you don't save much (if anything) ... it's just the
perception
> that MO has great prices since their Shimano stuff is half of the LBS ...
Monday, I walked into my nearest LBS who is a Specialized dealer in a posh
neighborhood and ordered an S-Works frame. This is the same LBS that I had
previously bought an almost $4K mtn. bike from in the past. Of course, they
had no idea who I was and haven't for a long time. Of course, in three
months time they will no longer remember me. Of course they are d*ckheads
unless you are getting ready to plop down big money on a bike or frame. Of
course their prices are much too high (often over MSRP). The brush you
paint with is too broad because some LBS really suck. I bet that it's poor
shops like these that do more damage to your industry than eBay and other
Internet sources. People don't want the hassle. BTW, this shop rakes in
the dough.
Dave
Joseph Kochanowski
bike question that would stump Val. He seems to know everything about
strange bike stuff. Once I had trouble taking apart a White Industries
front hub. He dissassembled it in seconds. For a sealed bearing hub,
it was rather complicated. Val knows how to repair ANY kind of
internal gear hub. This is rare in the business. There was almost no
repair that Val would not tackle. He would do modifications on a
Leitra Velomobile for a rich customer who spent thousands of dollars
that I doubt any other bike shop would even let in their
door.Bikesmith shop also had a lot of reading material, practically
everything written about bicycles. I could go there and sit down as
long as I wanted and read it all. While reading I would be amazed at
the high quality of expertise and speed that Val would put into
repairs.I also met a lot of customers at Bikesmith that were total
bike fanatics like me. Other bike shops are no fun to visit. The charm
about the shop was that it had a junk collection look to it. This is a
place where someone likes bikes and not a place that is trying to fool
the customer. I could ask Val a question and get an honest answer and
not some sales pitch.Val is a real character and it is going to be
interesting to find out where he ends up working next.
HardwareLust
"Reco Diver" <reco_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:db285975.04011...@posting.google.com...
> "smiles" <csmi...@removethisboardnbike.com> wrote in message
news:<%4SNb.2305$%86....@bignews4.bellsouth.net>...
>
> The sad thing is that you caved on your price. Now you have a customer
> that thinks you are either price gouging or pulling your prices out of
> your ... hat.
More than just one customer, now there's a thousand or more just from that
post. Of course, those of us here already have known this for years.
> Next time try this: Price match, then add $17.50 and tell the customer
> that it's for shipping.
That's all well and good, but when the MO places sell them for less than
what you pay wholesale, you can't even pricematch most of the time without
selling at a dead loss.
>After you get the money, put the derailleur
> back on the shelf and tell him he can have it in 3 or 4 days.
Total and utter crap. No one ever orders anything without knowing ahead of
time if it's in stock, how soon it takes them to ship (all the good MO shops
ship same day or next day at the absolute worst), and exactly how long it'll
take to get to them. Everyone does this, and I know so from selling on
Ebay. Every single person wants to know when I'll ship, and how long it
will take to get there. It's almost always the very first question they
ask. Most people gladly pay more for faster shipping, too, probably like
60-75% I would guess. It's not like buying mail order is some new concept.
And, if it's going to take too long, then they bite the bullet and go buy
from a shop. That person knew exactly how much that deurailler cost, and
how long it took to get it. That's probably why he was in the shop at all
to begin with.
>When he
> starts to whine, tell him that for another $5.00 he can have it
> tomarrow. (If the customer has not come across the counter at you) Go
> ahead and give him a derailleur. Pick the closest derailluer to you,
> not the XTR he paid for. When the customer complains that it isn't the
> correct derailluer,
No shop, not once, has *EVER* sent me the wrong part in the last 15 years,
which is what your are insinuating. Ever. *I* may have ordered the wrong
part, but I always get exactly what I order.
> tell him that if he will pay the $17.50 (insured)
> to send it back to you, you will gladly send him the correct
> deraileur. When the customer hands (or throws) the derailuer back to
Again, that's crap. If the shop indeed makes a mistake and sends you the
wrong part, or a part you did not order, every single one of them will pay
for return shipping. They, unlike you and your ilk, concentrate on customer
service and repeat business.
> you. Look at your monitor for a few moments, scroll a couple of pages,
> and tell him that it appears that you are now curently out of stock
That doesn't happen in real life. If the website says they're in stock when
you order, then they're in stock.
> on
> the requested item, but that you will gladly backorder one for him. At
> this point (if the police haven't arrived) take the original XTR
> derraileur remove it from its box, remove all installation
> instructions and materials, wrap it in the piece of plastic wrap (left
> over from the peanut butter sandwich you had for lunch). and hand it
> to your customer. Smil,e wish him a nice day, and remind him that
> "Price is not always the Point."
Well, you did make one good point; PricePoint does suck ass in that respect.
BUT, in their defense, if you ask them the condition and packaging of the
part *before* you order, they will gladly tell you on the phone or by email.
I made that very mistake buying some Magura hydraulic brakes and an SRAM
shifter from them a few years ago that I did not know were takeoffs from a
new bike (there was nothing really wrong with them, they were virtually new,
packed in a plastic bag with a Xerox of the instructions.) And, guess what?
When I called to complain, they offered to take them back and refund my
money, which they did without question. And then I'm sure they promptly
resold the parts I returned to them to someone else who didn't think to ask.
They are the only shop I know that does this.
Again, if this really is typical bike shop thinking, then why on earth
should I pay a 40% premium or more for my parts when this is what you guys
think of me? You guys should be concentrating on customer service and
support, not thinking up ways to punish the poor customer for merely wanting
to pay less money for the exact same part.
This is the reason LBS's are closing up, and it really has nothing to do
with price at all. Most shops I've walked in aren't friendly places, and
you usually get treated pretty poorly (if not completely ignored) unless
you're "in" with the shop guys. When you couple the ease of shopping on the
Internet with necessarily more expensive B&M pricing, sprinkle that with
some arrogant (and ignorant in a lot of cases) LBS salesmen, and you have a
disaster waiting to happen. I'm surprised so many stores have managed to
remain in business to tell you the truth.
HardwareLust
"JayofMontreal" <winick...@vif.com> wrote in message
news:j00Ob.24502$1K1.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip>
>
> If the LBS business model doesn't work because of the internet, its time
to
> change the model.
>
That's a very astute statement. Bravo! I concur.
Fabrizio Mazzoleni
Anybody know why the fuss about this shop?
I checked their website and this is their take of cycling:
"practical form of transportation, whether this means commuting, cargo
hauling, and delivery, touring, mobility in congested inner cities, or
primary transport for those who cannot operate motor vehicles"
Now that's not my kind of bike shop!
And the owner seems to have an attitude issue with the face hair and
pony tail,
flexing his biceps, and tattos.
tcmedara
> "Reco Diver" <reco_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:db285975.04011...@posting.google.com...
>> "smiles" <csmi...@removethisboardnbike.com> wrote in message
> news:<%4SNb.2305$%86....@bignews4.bellsouth.net>...
>> <snip>
>>
> This is the reason LBS's are closing up, and it really has nothing to
> do with price at all. Most shops I've walked in aren't friendly
> places, and you usually get treated pretty poorly (if not completely
> ignored) unless you're "in" with the shop guys. When you couple the
> ease of shopping on the Internet with necessarily more expensive B&M
> pricing, sprinkle that with some arrogant (and ignorant in a lot of
> cases) LBS salesmen, and you have a disaster waiting to happen. I'm
> surprised so many stores have managed to remain in business to tell
> you the truth.
Lots o' truth in that statement. LBS are like people, they're all a little
different, and some are better than others (unless you're a liberal and then
its some one else's fault). That said, bicycle parts and service is all
about business and economics, not nostalgia and warm feelings about some
mythical bike shop we call home. If service and advice were worth the price
of the mark-up then there wouldn't be such demand for cheap mail order
parts. Yeah, the gray market thing is a problem, but what's driving the
train is competition for the scarce cycling dollar. This is econ 101 stuff.
Competition keeps prices low, encourages efficiencies, increases
productivity, and benefits the consumer. No one is forcing us to buy parts
online, and millions wouldn't be bypassing the LBS if it didn't make good
economic sense. I utterly refuse to succumb to the notion that I should by
from the LBS because they need my support. Yeah they may want my support,
but if I can't get value for money than they don't deserve it. I probably
buy 80% of my parts via mail order and do 90% of my own wrench work. It
just plain makes sense. There are times when the expertise, robust tool
inventory, and (unfortunately spotty) experience of the LBS make it worth
the price. I don't criticise the LBS for their prices, but its just plain
irrational to pay more than I have to for what I need.
History is replete with examples of business models that become obsolete due
to changes in technology and the economy at large. For example: Home
delivery of dairy products in the US used to be the norm unitl the mid-20th
century. The spread of the automobile, particularly the 2nd car for mom to
do the shopping, combined with the new "supermarket" business model
conspired to end the career of many a milkman. The supermarket cost less
and was more efficient, even if it wasn't quite as convenient. A few
milkment still exist, but really only in a niche markets that provide a
unique or high end service, but it's no longer the norm. We can judge it,
call it good or evil, lament the demise of "the way it was", but either way
it's reality. Notions of hope and good will won't stop change. The cold
hard laws of economics gave rise to newer and better ways to distribute
goods. If I could predict how the bicycle parts and service industry will
transform in 10 years I'd start investing now. Unfortunately, I have no
idea what will shake out, but until them I'm going to shop based on value --
be it the LBS or the internet -- not based on emotion or a one sided sense
of obligation. If an LBS can't cut it as a business, then it shouldn't
operate as one. Period. Anything else is just sweeping back the tide.
Tom (have read a bit on the whole supply-demand thing in my time)
Paul Hays
(in message <70944b7b.04011...@posting.google.com>):
> Zoot Katz <zoot...@operamail.com> wrote in message
> news:<400b724d...@news.individual.net>...
>> Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:47:16 GMT,
>> <ougg00h3ir82qd1od...@4ax.com>,
>> jeffbonny <jeff...@REMCAPSshaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> What mail order don't got:
>>
>> Soul.
>
> Anybody know why the fuss about this shop?
> I checked their website and this is their take of cycling:
>
> "practical form of transportation, whether this means commuting, cargo
> hauling, and delivery, touring, mobility in congested inner cities, or
> primary transport for those who cannot operate motor vehicles"
> Now that's not my kind of bike shop!
Did you read any further? It goes on to say:
".... We believe in bicycles as a passion - the passion of the racer, ekeing
out every possible bit of speed; the passion of the collector, restoring the
bike he rode as a child forty years ago; the passion of the homebuilding
tinkerer, putting together a chopper or a recumbent such as no one has ever
seen. We believe in bicycles as a triumphant example of elegant engineering
and efficiency. We believe in bicycles as art. We believe in making bicycling
possible for everyone who wants it."
What is your kind of bike shop?
> And the owner seems to have an attitude issue with the face hair and
> pony tail,
> flexing his biceps, and tattos.
Biceps flexing is a take on the Rosie the Riveter "Together we can do it"
slogan, as seen at the top of the page http://www.thebikesmith.com/about.htm.
I'm not even sure where you got the bit about tattoos.
Who's got the attitude issue, really?
S o r n i
>
> Anybody know why the fuss about this shop?
> I checked their website and this is their take of cycling:
>
> "practical form of transportation, whether this means commuting, cargo
> hauling, and delivery, touring, mobility in congested inner cities, or
> primary transport for those who cannot operate motor vehicles"
>
> Now that's not my kind of bike shop!
> And the owner seems to have an attitude issue with the face hair and
> pony tail,
> flexing his biceps, and tattos.
AM-Bers, meet Fabrizio.
Bill "he funny" S.
R15757
<< You wanna throw the baby out with the bath water go ahead.
There are a few good shops and sometimes you just got keep trying till
ya find it.
jb >>
I would love to give business to an LBS. There are several around here. I find
myself in need of an LBS on a near constant basis, but patience has run out. I
go to one shop with famously high prices and find they are selling replacement
cleats for 25$. Guy says "I can't compete with Performance prices" and I'm like
I cant compete with 25$ cleats beeyotch. Everything in the shop is priced to
give the occasional wandering sucker a little extra reaming without
lubrication. I go to another LBS to get a headset installed. Guy charges me 30
f'ing dollars with a straight face. I was set to buy a Phil Wood hub, Mavic
rim, set of fenders, a whole load of shiite, but the initial reaming changed my
mind on that. Instead I bought used equipment cheap and fixed it up as best I
could, and resolved to obtain a press so I wouldn't have to endure that sort of
reaming again. I pop into another LBS to get some chain lube and before long I
am getting attitude from shop employee about chain lube.
Bike shops used to be cool. Now they suck.
sadly,
Robert
A Muzi
Nice post.
Some rambling thoughts on those subjects-
I, for one, am aghast that a business owner would ask for
"support".
We ( industry , not my shop particularly) address many
various cycling markets. One must be just as careful about
generalizing "cyclists" as referring to "LBS" as a group.
To that diversity and to margins-
Yes, here in my store, we do provide convenience at a higher
margin than some other things, much as the corner grocery
charges more for convenience. There are a good number of
people who are very willing to part with a $4 service charge
and another $3.95 for a tube to get a flat repaired on the
way to or from work in a few minutes rather than dirty their
hands. Although we provide air (24 hours) and tools and a
place to work (and even sell individual patches), not all
cyclists find that interesting or appealing. My staff gets
tips, and weekly a $5 or even $10 tip on a three minute tire
change. There are also guys who ask for a single patch with
a promise to come pay for it next week.
To selling service-
I once read something which I still recall clearly, "If you
are only open 9 to 5 you are catering to the unemployed".
And our regular clientele knows that the door is unlocked
very early and very late. It's common for us to change a
tire at 6:30 in the morning and at eleven at night. By
common I mean an extra twelve or fifteen service tickets per
week done on off-hours. Of course my neighborhood has more
commuters than most. My neighborhood also has a lot of
drunks tossing bottles, sadly.
I know of LBS who service bicycles by appointment. Really, I
am not kidding. Their community or their clientele
apparently finds that acceptable. And not as an unusual
event, either. From that I conclude there are very wide
ranges of customer perception and expectation.
(I couldn't do that with a straight face. "Your bike's
broken? See you Wednesday" Not!)
To margins-
We get a higher per-hour rate for metalwork and machine tool
time and anything on the lathe because it is skilled work,
the tools cost more and we provide usually a lot more value
for ten minutes with a torch than ten minutes with tire
levers and a wrench. My point I guess is that margins do
vary in innumerable ways and for a lot of good ( and
sometime silly) reasons. I do not know of any business with
a consistent margin across the entire operation. Even 99c
stores buy for both a nickel and for 80c, yet price them
all the same.
Further, we do not mark up some things, such as Shimano
components, by enough to cover even the freight cost of
getting it here. That situation has become like a camera
store, where the objective is just to lose as little as
possible on a sale. And so I keep only one piece usually,
relying on my supplier for next-day fill in. Even at that
margin ( roughly +8%) we are not competitive with large
volume or grey market vendors. So do I cry about it? Hell
no. We concentrate our efforts to selling products with
more room to earn a living.
If an LBS charges , say, twenty percent on a Shimano product
( a rate at which most retailers of hardgoods would just not
bother) he's sure to find his customer is derided on next
Sunday's ride for paying that extra $3 and made to look a
fool. Not good for repeat business. Peter has mentioned
that sort of problem here often. It's aggravating but not an
impossible situation. No rule says you must sell it.
And others suffer more. I know a woman who runs a
convenience store. They clear 2 to 3 cents on a gallon of
gas. From which they pay for the equipment, equipment
service, staff, liability and they handle (risk) immense
amounts of cash and taxes. We suffer much less than they.
Yes, we seek items which are unique or impulse or new or in
some way allow us enough margin to both pay the rent and the
staff. I am not only not ashamed of that, I'm proud of it.
If enough cyclists agree that we provide value, we'll
survive; else not.
I noted a comment earlier about $100 to build a wheel. That
cannot possibly be true, is it?
And someone else mentioned charging a $4 service fee for a
minor derailleur adjustment. Really? Most shops I know are
happy to spend a minute of two on that sort of thing gratis.
In the retelling, that story could just as well have been
about a derailleur tab alignment, maybe removing and
lubricating a stuck pulley, perhaps unkinking a gear wire
and a few other things along the way for $4. My point is
that we were not there and we don't know what was actually
done. The time to complain was at the moment you were
standing there with the owner , not here. Are there clip
joints? Sure. That hardly represents LBS at large.
Like most small businesses we are here because we have been
able to adapt, to wend our way through a new environment
every year and to listen.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Zoot Katz
The Only (Fabrizio Mazzoleni) wrote:
>Anybody know why the fuss about this shop?
Fab, this is cross posted to a recumbent and a mountain bike group.
Figure it out.
--
zk
Ned Mantei
"onefred" <datay...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Monday, I walked into my nearest LBS who is a Specialized dealer in a posh
>neighborhood and ordered an S-Works frame. This is the same LBS that I had
>previously bought an almost $4K mtn. bike from in the past. Of course, they
>had no idea who I was and haven't for a long time.
Opposite extreme: In 1997 I bought a steel frame touring bike from a
Zurich bike shop (Velo Stolz, for people here in Zurich). Not my
neighborhood LBS (also good, but didn't offer exactly the bike I
wanted), so I visited Velo Stolz only a few of times thereafter. About a
month ago I happened to buy something there again. The owner remembered
my name, the model of bicycle I had bought, and the color of the bike!
Impressive, no?
--
Ned Mantei
Department of Cell Biology, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology
CH-8093 Zurich, Switzerland
Just zis Guy, you know?
<winick...@vif.com> wrote:
>The LBS philosophy is: "You aren't just paying for the bike, you're paying
>for service".
There are three bike shops near me. Prices are the same. The one I
use is the one that not only says the above but lives by it. Mail
order is cheaper, but the hassle if something isn't quite right soon
eats into the savings. I usually buy model railway stuff by mail
order because there is no decent shop near me, but bike stuff mostly
comes from Real Shops (TM).
Here's how I see it:
There is no way a .BAM can be as cheap as mail order: mail order is
one warehouse guy and some high racking, a shop needs a sales floor
and has to be located in a more expensive part of town. Your proposed
mechanism for cost recovery - explicitly charging for labour which is
currently concealed in the cost of parts - won't work because a major
component of the labour is people just sitting there waiting for you
to walk in off the street. This applies to all retail.
What you are paying for is not the %20 worth of service, but the fact
that the bike is there, on the wall, can be pulled down, touched,
hefted, ridden, compared with another bike, and the clerk can tell you
that another guy your size tried this other bike and found it fitted
better.
The mixed-mode shop, where a .BAM boosts its turnover by running
mail-order, is a good model in some ways because the sales people are
still real bike shop people with some clue (even the spotty teenager
soon learns in a real bike shop). But you won't get one of these in
every town, for obvious reasons, so if your LBS is Harris or St John
Street then you are one lucky person.
The .BAM is not going away because people like me like to touch stuff
before we buy. It is undermined by people going to the shop,
consuming the service element (taking up hours of the sales clerk's
time) and then buying via the web. I hate that, so I don't do it.
The sales clerks in my LBS are very good and Know Stuff so taking that
expertise and then buying from a shop which hasn't invested in it
seems not only rude but short-sighted.
Years ago the auto parts retail market in the UK was made up of little
shops that had all sorts of stuff and expertise. The big guys came
along, set up out-of-town superstores which sold the big-ticket items
at a discount, and the little guys mostly went bust. So you could get
an alternator for 5% less than it used to cost, but the upper snarkle
bracket grobbly pin can only be obtained from the main dealer, during
working hours, at three times the price the little guy used to charge.
Now we are in a - what? - post-consolidation market. Little guys are
setting up again to fill the gaps which have become obvious. Now
there is a firm called German & Swedish which sells all kind of
pattern parts for my Volvo at rational prices and is open retail
hours. I use them.
Same with bike shops. There are only half the number in my town that
there used to be. Two of these are thriving due to loyal customers
who they keep loyal by serving them well. In my LBS they remember my
name - I like that. I only go there maybe once a month, I've referred
a couple of people there for bikes, they give me a discount. I like
that model and I don't think it's dying any time soon.
Zippy the Pinhead
<tcme...@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:
> I probably
>buy 80% of my parts via mail order and do 90% of my own wrench work.
That's fair.
The people that piss me off are the ones who buy the part online, try
to install it, then walk the bike into the shop and expect the crew to
fix their stuff-up for free.
Zippy the Pinhead
wrote:
>What is your kind of bike shop?
Latte', Lycra, and K-Y Jelly.
Davey Crockett
Just for interest since I haven't been to Marymoor for donkey's years, or ridden STP recently either, is Stu Hennessey still running his shop out on the island please?
--
le Vent a Dos
Davey Crockett
Six-Day site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html
Eric S. Sande
>than they don't deserve it.
What part of "value-added" do you not understand? I do most of my
own work, and I buy hard to find stuff mail order, but it's not from
Performance. It's mostly from small specialty places.
I get all my common parts from my LBS, and why not? If I need tubes,
tape, cables, etc. I usually need it now, not in five days.
That keeps me a familiar face in the LBS and it gets me a few perks.
And it helps the LBS. Occasionally I'll buy a "big ticket" item
like say a lock, or a special order item, and they know it. They'll
do me small favors, sometimes big favors, because they see me a lot.
It evens out.
It is not all about money, it's about best cost.
--
_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>cwhi...@texastwr.utaustin.edu__________
smiles
news:JX2Ob.4269$9U6...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> > If the LBS business model doesn't work because of the internet, its time
> to
> > change the model.
> >
>
> That's a very astute statement. Bravo! I concur.
It's difficult ... our business comes from a small community, for the most
part ... where a mail order house comes from a large base ... thus better
pricing ... I have no problem with the customer who buys and installs his
own stuff ... I just can't stand the person who buys internet to save a buck
and then asks us to install it.
Also, one flaw with the internet model ... check warrantees ... in most of
the cases the warranty is voided if purchased from online retailers. Ya Ya
Bike may be the saving grace for small LBS's like ours.
smiles
news:73da2590.04011...@posting.google.com...
> Now, if you have not already surmised, I am the person in this
> third-person tale. In the course of two years, I went from not doing
> any of my own work, and buying everything (parts and labor) from my
> LBS, to buying on-line and doing all my own work.
Fair enough ... just hope you don't stop in the LBS to check out and waste
the peoples time/money to see what you want to buy on the internet. I ask
all our customers to give us a chance to match internet first ...
smiles
news:40089c63$0$43852$39ce...@news.twtelecom.net...
> course their prices are much too high (often over MSRP). The brush you
> paint with is too broad because some LBS really suck. I bet that it's
poor
> shops like these that do more damage to your industry than eBay and other
> Internet sources. People don't want the hassle. BTW, this shop rakes in
> the dough.
First, all businesses, B&M's and internet have some that "really suck" ...
as for your perception of how they rake in the dough ... thing are not
always how they seem ... i know a ton who think we rake it in ... and i see
the books and if "rake it in" means being lucky to pay yourself at all ...
then yes we rake it in;-)
tcmedara
(snip)
> What part of "value-added" do you not understand?
>
(snip)
>
> It is not all about money, it's about best cost.
We are in violent agreement. What I wanted to comment on was the
oft-supported newsgroup notion that I should support my LBS as a matter of
principle regardless of best cost because its "hard to compete." The
principle is "value", or "best cost" as you put it. I don't think an LBS
should be exempt from the same business rules/forces that other retail or
service outlets must contend with.
I have to think there will always be a niche for cycling related retail and
service, but in order to survive they've got to find a way to operate
efficiently, effectively, and still make a profit. Cycling isn't the only
business to have to deal with shifting trends in consumer practices. I'm
not smart enough to know what the best model is. If I was, I'd open a shop
tomorrow. I'll leave that to the entrepreneurs of the world, backed by
people who don't mind risking their capital. That's my only point. I just
get sick of people advocating use of an LBS out of some twisted notion that
the cycling dollar (or euro for that matter) spent at the LBS is somehow
intrinsically superior to spent over the internet.
Tom
Eric S. Sande
>notion that the cycling dollar (or euro for that matter) spent at the
>LBS is somehow intrinsically superior to spent over the internet.
But these LBS advocates aren't cycling on the internet. They're
cycling on the streets of their local community. That's where they
need the support.
You can't fix a broken wheel on the internet. You can order parts
and get advice, but you can't get a mechanic with appropriate
tools on the internet, for an afternoon appointment.
On the other hand, I can get it done within an hour at my LBS, no
problem.
But, and I feel you're missing this point, the LBS is not going to
be there as a resource if no one supports it.
tcmedara
>> twisted notion that the cycling dollar (or euro for that matter)
>> spent at the LBS is somehow intrinsically superior to spent over the
>> internet.
>
> But these LBS advocates aren't cycling on the internet. They're
> cycling on the streets of their local community. That's where they
> need the support.
>
> You can't fix a broken wheel on the internet. You can order parts
> and get advice, but you can't get a mechanic with appropriate
> tools on the internet, for an afternoon appointment.
All true. And that's why I think there will always be a need for local bike
shops. But if they can't do it competitively, then I shouldn't be expected
to subsidize them. That's economically unsustainable.
>
> On the other hand, I can get it done within an hour at my LBS, no
> problem.
>
> But, and I feel you're missing this point, the LBS is not going to
> be there as a resource if no one supports it.
....and no one will support it if they can't offer competitive prices and
services using an effective and efficient business model. Don't get me
wrong, I love bike stores. They're like grown-up toy stores for me. I love
to go in and BS with some of the guys, talk about parts, check out the
clothes and overpriced helmets, ogle at the bikes. I bought my last bike
fromt the store because I appreciated being able to touch, test, see and
feel the thing. However, the shop I bought the bike from just closed last
month. I can wax nostalgic about how much I'll miss the place, but that's
really beside the point. The only "support" an LBS should need or expect is
the support of customers willing to pay for the parts and services they
offer. If people aren't willing to offer that support, then the "resource"
just isn't all that necessary.
Eric S. Sande
>just isn't all that necessary.
Well, that's your opinion. I ride every day, and don't own a car.
So the LBS is an important resource to me.
I would hope that it was the same for others. In my city the LBS
business model seems to be doing well, City Bikes has expanded to
a second shop in Maryland, the regular shops seem to be doing well.
In other words there isn't a bike shop deficit in DC.
I would suspect this is also the case in Boston, London, Vancouver,
etc. I don't know what conditions might be elsewhere, but here
it appears that bike shops are doing good business.
Reco Diver
> "Reco Diver" <reco_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:db285975.04011...@posting.google.com...
> > "smiles" <csmi...@removethisboardnbike.com> wrote in message
> news:<%4SNb.2305$%86....@bignews4.bellsouth.net>...
> > <snip>
> >
> >After you get the money, put the derailleur
> > back on the shelf and tell him he can have it in 3 or 4 days.
>
> Total and utter crap. No one ever orders anything without knowing ahead of
> time if it's in stock, how soon it takes them to ship (all the good MO shops
> ship same day or next day at the absolute worst), and exactly how long it'll
> take to get to them.
Around here ... shipping usually take ... well 3 to 4 days, unless
you pay next day, then its 2 to 3 days.
<and again snip>
> > tell him that if he will pay the $17.50 (insured)
> > to send it back to you, you will gladly send him the correct
> > deraileur. When the customer hands (or throws) the derailuer back to
>
> Again, that's crap. If the shop indeed makes a mistake and sends you the
> wrong part, or a part you did not order, every single one of them will pay
> for return shipping. They, unlike you and your ilk, concentrate on customer
> service and repeat business.
My ilk? Sir, I was the service manager and a long time employee of
Palo Alto Bicycles. A company that, during the 1970's and 1980's ruled
the mail order industry. We were a model for many of todays MO
outfits. You no nothing of "my ilk."
<yawn snip>
> Again, if this really is typical bike shop thinking, then why on earth
<snip>
Who said anything about me having anything to do with a "typical bike
shop?" Or, at this point in time, any bikeshop for that matter?
> This is the reason LBS's are closing up, and it really has nothing to do
> with price at all. Most shops I've walked in aren't friendly places, and
> you usually get treated pretty poorly (if not completely ignored) unless
> you're "in" with the shop guys. When you couple the ease of shopping on the
> Internet with necessarily more expensive B&M pricing, sprinkle that with
> some arrogant (and ignorant in a lot of cases) LBS salesmen, and you have a
> disaster waiting to happen. I'm surprised so many stores have managed to
> remain in business to tell you the truth.
Take a deep breath .... It was a joke. If you keep up like this you
are going to blow a blood vessel.
R
(If you'll excuse me ... I'm going back to my music now)
onefred
Oh they rake it in. Not to worry because they've figure it out. What you
do is cater to the proverbial soccer mom and others who will come in and buy
a full Ultegra equipped Trek, ride it home, put it in their garage, and
never use it again until their first and last MS150 when they bring their
perfectly tuned bike in for a tune-up. Of course there is a small
percentage of customers who ride their bikes very regularly, myself
included.
I think it's mostly about location. A shop in a nice wealthy area will
always do better than one situated under a freeway overpass or in an office
park. People want to go to their Local bike shop, not the cool one located
25 miles away.
Dave
BB
> That doesn't happen in real life. If the website says they're in stock when
> you order, then they're in stock.
I would hope they've fixed it by now, but Nashbar used to be notorious for
saying things were in stock when they weren't, especially clearance items.
I finally learned never to order on-line, but call instead.
> This is the reason LBS's are closing up, and it really has nothing to do
> with price at all. Most shops I've walked in aren't friendly places, and
> you usually get treated pretty poorly (if not completely ignored) unless
> you're "in" with the shop guys.
I would add the qualifier "some". Not all LBSs are closing up because of
poor attitudes, but certainly a poor attitude will help get one closed. We
had an LBS a mile from my house, and the guy running the place was an
asshole. After getting attitude from him, I avoided the place. Apparently
I wasn't the only one!
--
-BB-
To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)
Rick Onanian
For those not patient enough to read it all, please at least respond
to this question, originally at the end of the post:
Why are the shops full of dickheads so popular, and the nice ones
struggling?
Anyway...
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:24:31 -0600, "onefred"
<datay...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Monday, I walked into my nearest LBS who is a Specialized dealer in a posh
>neighborhood and ordered an S-Works frame. This is the same LBS that I had
>previously bought an almost $4K mtn. bike from in the past. Of course, they
>had no idea who I was and haven't for a long time. Of course, in three
>months time they will no longer remember me.
I agree with many of the issues brought up here regarding the
failings of LBS. However, you are expecting too damn much here.
You occasionally come in and buy something, and expect everybody
there to recognize you, remember every detail about all your bikes,
and ask if your daughter's sleep apnea is cured?
Is MO any better? Do they remember you?
I love my LBS. I admit that now, however, I buy nearly everything
online. I go to the LBS when I need to pay for service, or when I
need something right away, or when I need a small part, or when I
feel like I have disposable money for a given item. I'm thinking
about buying an XTR rear derailer, and I'm going to go to the LBS
and see how much they want for it. If their price is near MO
(including shipping), I'll buy it there. Otherwise, I probably
won't.
However, they recognize me and know me well because I have bought a
lot there. I spent a lot of time there shooting the shit. I've
always been pleasant, never a bad customer. It helps to have been in
the retail service business -- I worked in a LCS (local computer
shop) doing repairs/upgrades, so I know just how to be a great
customer.
In short, I've cultivated a relationship with people in the shop.
You can't expect them to treat you as if you were a regular customer
unless you ARE one, even if you've bought an insanely expensive
frame there a year ago and are there now for another; maybe on the
third one they'll recognize you as the guy who comes in yearly for
insanely expensive frames, but they probably don't stand to lose
much if you disappear.
Of course, if you've chosen the _wrong_ LBS, then as you say:
> Of course they are d*ckheads
Dickheads are going to be dickheads regardless of what you buy from
them. An LBS run by actual dickheads may cease to exist, but nobody
will care.
>unless you are getting ready to plop down big money on a bike or frame. Of
No, they are dickheads if that's who they are; at worst, for people
not buying much/often, they will be busy, and a bit curt -- "gotta
get this sale over with so I can get back to the customer who has
cultivated a good relationship" would be the worst attitude from
people who aren't dickheads.
I don't give my business to dickheads. There's a large LBS around
here that is very popular. I can't figure out why; every time I go
there, I can be standing in front of the cash register, holding a
product in one hand and cash in the other, and wait for a _long_
time. They've never been anything less than polite to me, but they
do ignore me when I could be out of there, so I don't bother.
I bought a bike at another large, popular LBS, and they've always
been pretty nice to me, but they tend to be less than smart. So, I
only give them the business that I must.
Finally, my preferred LBS, was chosen based on two concerns:
- They had the bike I was looking for
- They were knowledgable, pleasant, attentive, patient, and not
dickheads
Now that I have r.b.t. for my advice, I do a lot more mail order.
But I'm still going to the LBS today, if I can get there before
closing time, to see if I can give him my business for the XTR rder
and a cassette.
>course their prices are much too high (often over MSRP).
Of course, if his price is too high, I'll mail order the derailer.
>The brush you paint with is too broad because some LBS really suck.
Reminds me of your post; a very broad brush of giving repeat
business to a sucky LBS. Why?
>I bet that it's poor
>shops like these that do more damage to your industry than eBay and other
>Internet sources. People don't want the hassle. BTW, this shop rakes in
>the dough.
I agree that the poor shops, which seem to be prevalent, do much
damage. I've observed that those shops are the ones that rake in the
dough, though, and I have to wonder: Why?
Why are the shops full of dickheads so popular, and the nice ones
struggling?
>Dave
--
Rick Onanian
Rick Onanian
<csmi...@removethisboardnbike.com> wrote:
>pricing ... I have no problem with the customer who buys and installs his
>own stuff ... I just can't stand the person who buys internet to save a buck
>and then asks us to install it.
Relax about it. Don't be afraid to charge more for installation of
brought-in parts; make separate labor price lists, or a discount for
using your parts, or a surcharge for bringing their own parts.
Figure out how much makes it worth it, and charge that much. You're
in business to make money, and it's not the least bit unreasonable
to charge more for labor to install parts not bought from you. Just
don't get offended, which is when it's a problem.
It is terrible when somebody buys MO and then asks you for free
advice, unless that person has cultivated a proper relationship with
you by buying from you often enough.
>Also, one flaw with the internet model ... check warrantees ... in most of
>the cases the warranty is voided if purchased from online retailers. Ya Ya
>Bike may be the saving grace for small LBS's like ours.
Bike parts have warranties?
The only part I've ever had break during it's warranty period, a
first-generation Thudbuster seatpost, wasn't covered by the company
because they were bought out and the old product was obsoleted; my
LBS (where I bought the offending seatpost), always very helpful,
tried to make them cover it, but they refused.
Anything else has broken out of warranty, or in a non-warranty way.
--
Rick Onanian
David Kerber
spam...@cox.net says...
> Warning: Long post ahead.
>
> For those not patient enough to read it all, please at least respond
> to this question, originally at the end of the post:
> Why are the shops full of dickheads so popular, and the nice ones
> struggling?
Let me hazard a guess: I think the biggest factor is that the big ones
(and I think I know which two big ones you are referring to, especially
the one near you) can't get enough good help to keep the customers from
seeing more dickheads than good helpful people. The ones who really
know what they are doing are needed back in the shop, leaving the new
teenagers who just know how to ride a bike without killing themselves to
work the floor. They probably do most of their business with with POB's
who want a decent bike (that's why they're not at *Mart) but aren't into
it seriously enough to "hang out" at a shop to really get to know the
shop people. Therefore, most of the big shop's customers are probaly
people who buy a bike every few years, maybe bring it in for service
when something makes it unrideable (or maybe not; it probably sits in
the garage most of the time), and then a few years later buy a decent
MTB for their kids.
Not much incentive for the shop to cultivate a relationship with the
group of people who bring them the most money. From the conversations I
had and overheard with people on a recent NBW ride (who are all serious
enough riders to show up on a 40° Saturday when it was threatening to
rain), it sounds like most of them don't go to the big shops. The buy
from and hang out at the smaller ones where there may be the owner and
one other guy who run the whole place. Being so small however, it won't
take much of an economic downturn to put that little shop out of
business, compared to the big one.
....
--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!
REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
smiles
> Oh they rake it in. Not to worry because they've figure it out. What you
> do is cater to the proverbial soccer mom and others who will come in and
buy
> a full Ultegra equipped Trek, ride it home, put it in their garage, and
> never use it again until their first and last MS150 when they bring their
> perfectly tuned bike in for a tune-up.
I try to get them riding ... with low key group rides and fun trail rides.
My thought is if they ride once a year that's not doing anything for the
saddles, tires, tubes, cables and other high wear items in stock;-)
> I think it's mostly about location. A shop in a nice wealthy area will
> always do better than one situated under a freeway overpass or in an
office
> park. People want to go to their Local bike shop, not the cool one
located
> 25 miles away.
We were in an industrial park and it sucked ... then we moved in next to a
Wal-Mart ... and biz dropped ...our next move is into a quaint old part of
town. All three locations are in well to do areas ... just what i see is the
"well to do" have their funds in debt and they still buy junk!! The new
location at the old dead plaza is working GREAT!! ... time will tell.
smiles
news:gu1j00loc8up6ddpk...@4ax.com...
> Relax about it. Don't be afraid to charge more for installation of
> brought-in parts; make separate labor price lists, or a discount for
> using your parts, or a surcharge for bringing their own parts.
> Figure out how much makes it worth it, and charge that much. You're
> in business to make money, and it's not the least bit unreasonable
> to charge more for labor to install parts not bought from you. Just
> don't get offended, which is when it's a problem.
Not getting offended?? ... I have had more than one customer come in after
paying MORE for something MO, they did not ask because they ASSuMEd I was
more, since I was a B&M shop. I get offended daily ... just don't offend;-)
I can offend here ... since 99.9% of you are not my clients:-)
Zippy the Pinhead
wrote:
>>They, unlike you and your ilk, concentrate on customer
>> service and repeat business.
>
>My ilk? Sir, I was the service manager and a long time employee of
>Palo Alto Bicycles.
Yep. You don't see too many ilk in Palo Alto.
You gotta go way up north. I'm talking Northern Minnesota, maybe even
Canada, before you'll see many ilk.
onefred
>
> Dickheads are going to be dickheads ...
> ... dickheads ...
>
> ..., they are dickheads
> ... dickheads.
>
> I don't give ... dickheads.
>
> ...
> dickheads
>
> ...
> ... shops full of dickheads...
Oh Gaud! My young virgin eyes have been beaten to bloody pulps!!! All I
can see when I close my eyes are bike shop dickheads! LOL!
Dave
Zippy the Pinhead
<csmi...@removethisboardnbike.com> wrote:
> I was a B&M shop.
Please contribute to the cure of my encyclopedic ignorance.
But for the context, I would guess that that meant you were selling
cans of baked beans.
But I don't have the first clue of what a "B&M Shop" is in the context
of bicycles.
Thanks.
Penny S
are they CUTE shop dickheads?
ps
Chris B.
Bricks and mortar.
Rick Onanian
>paying MORE for something MO, they did not ask because they ASSuMEd I was
>more, since I was a B&M shop. I get offended daily ... just don't offend;-)
Seriously, don't be offended. It doesn't accomplish anything, other
than raising your stress level, and (if you accidentally let it
show) making you look like a jerk.
Consumers are stupid. You can't change that. You can capitalize on
it, and they will be ecstatic to find a bike shop owner that doesn't
mind installing MO parts, even if you charge more.
Believe me, you'd be more pissed if they wasted your time all day
every day calling to compare prices, and then buying MO anyway. I
thought about this as I called my LBS for a price today -- if I had
called him for every item I've bought MO over the past year, he'd
get caller ID and not answer when I call. Sometimes the prices are
similar -- usually not. Why waste his time and destroy a good
relationship?
--
Rick Onanian
David Kerber
the_corpo...@hotmail.com says...
"Brick and Mortar", meaning he is a real store with a fixed location,
rather than a mail order or internet shop. Like Barnes and Noble or
Walden Books, compared to Amazon.com.
Slacker
Dickheads don't have faces... they're dickheads after all... duh
--
Slacker
Paul Milner
> I was talking to Val Kleitz at the Bikesmith in Seattle today and he
> told me that he will have to go out of business in a couple of weeks.
> That's a real loss because he runs a very capable and responsive LBS.
> Everyone in the area that can should try to get over there and give
> him some business as soon as you can. It may not be too late to save
> the business.
>
> http://www.thebikesmith.com
>
>
> PS. I am not connected in any way with the Bikesmith, just a
> concerned customer.
Hi all, Tis is indeed a shame. I've known Val off and on since 1988.
His shop is a most wonderful conglomeration of old tech stuff, such as
2 speed kick-back coaster brake hubs. I once took a personal defense
course from his brother in Las Cruces, NM. I hope Val does well.
Paul Milner in Albuquerque, NM
Paul Milner
> Zoot Katz <zoot...@operamail.com> wrote in message news:<400b724d...@news.individual.net>...
> > Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:47:16 GMT,
> > <ougg00h3ir82qd1od...@4ax.com>,
> > jeffbonny <jeff...@REMCAPSshaw.ca> wrote:
> >
> > >What mail order don't got:
> >
> > Soul.
>
> Anybody know why the fuss about this shop?
> I checked their website and this is their take of cycling:
>
> "practical form of transportation, whether this means commuting, cargo
> hauling, and delivery, touring, mobility in congested inner cities, or
> primary transport for those who cannot operate motor vehicles"
>
> Now that's not my kind of bike shop!
> And the owner seems to have an attitude issue with the face hair and
> pony tail,
> flexing his biceps, and tattos.
Whine and Snivel!
mark
Sounds like the business model my old LBS, Spokes, uses. I spent a lot of
money there happily and got a lot of free advice, touch ups and suggestions
that kept me coming back.
--
mark
Outside a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside a dog it is too dark to read - Groucho Marx
xes out for mail
"A Muzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:100ho9t...@corp.supernews.com...
> > HardwareLust <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >
> >>"Reco Diver" <reco_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >>news:db285975.04011...@posting.google.com...
> >>
> >>>"smiles" <csmi...@removethisboardnbike.com> wrote in message
> >>
> >>news:<%4SNb.2305$%86....@bignews4.bellsouth.net>...
> >>
> >>><snip>
> >>>
> >
> >>This is the reason LBS's are closing up, and it really has nothing to
> >>do with price at all. Most shops I've walked in aren't friendly
> >>places, and you usually get treated pretty poorly (if not completely
> >>ignored) unless you're "in" with the shop guys. When you couple the
> >>ease of shopping on the Internet with necessarily more expensive B&M
> >>pricing, sprinkle that with some arrogant (and ignorant in a lot of
> >>cases) LBS salesmen, and you have a disaster waiting to happen. I'm
> >>surprised so many stores have managed to remain in business to tell
> >>you the truth.
> >
> >
> tcmedara wrote:
> > Lots o' truth in that statement. LBS are like people, they're all a
little
> > different, and some are better than others (unless you're a liberal and
then
> > its some one else's fault). That said, bicycle parts and service is all
> > about business and economics, not nostalgia and warm feelings about some
> > mythical bike shop we call home. If service and advice were worth the
price
> > of the mark-up then there wouldn't be such demand for cheap mail order
> > parts. Yeah, the gray market thing is a problem, but what's driving the
> > train is competition for the scarce cycling dollar. This is econ 101
stuff.
> > Competition keeps prices low, encourages efficiencies, increases
> > productivity, and benefits the consumer. No one is forcing us to buy
parts
> > online, and millions wouldn't be bypassing the LBS if it didn't make
good
> > economic sense. I utterly refuse to succumb to the notion that I should
by
> > from the LBS because they need my support. Yeah they may want my
support,
> > but if I can't get value for money than they don't deserve it. I
probably
> > buy 80% of my parts via mail order and do 90% of my own wrench work. It
> > just plain makes sense. There are times when the expertise, robust
tool
> > inventory, and (unfortunately spotty) experience of the LBS make it
worth
> > the price. I don't criticise the LBS for their prices, but its just
plain
> > irrational to pay more than I have to for what I need.
> >
> > History is replete with examples of business models that become obsolete
due
> > to changes in technology and the economy at large. For example: Home
> > delivery of dairy products in the US used to be the norm unitl the
mid-20th
> > century. The spread of the automobile, particularly the 2nd car for mom
to
> > do the shopping, combined with the new "supermarket" business model
> > conspired to end the career of many a milkman. The supermarket cost
less
> > and was more efficient, even if it wasn't quite as convenient. A few
> > milkment still exist, but really only in a niche markets that provide a
> > unique or high end service, but it's no longer the norm. We can judge
it,
> > call it good or evil, lament the demise of "the way it was", but either
way
> > it's reality. Notions of hope and good will won't stop change. The
cold
> > hard laws of economics gave rise to newer and better ways to distribute
> > goods. If I could predict how the bicycle parts and service industry
will
> > transform in 10 years I'd start investing now. Unfortunately, I have no
> > idea what will shake out, but until them I'm going to shop based on
value --
> > be it the LBS or the internet -- not based on emotion or a one sided
sense
> > of obligation. If an LBS can't cut it as a business, then it shouldn't
> > operate as one. Period. Anything else is just sweeping back the tide.
> >
> > Tom (have read a bit on the whole supply-demand thing in my time)
>
>
> Nice post.
> Some rambling thoughts on those subjects-
>
> I, for one, am aghast that a business owner would ask for
> "support".
>
> We ( industry , not my shop particularly) address many
> various cycling markets. One must be just as careful about
> generalizing "cyclists" as referring to "LBS" as a group.
>
> To that diversity and to margins-
> Yes, here in my store, we do provide convenience at a higher
> margin than some other things, much as the corner grocery
> charges more for convenience. There are a good number of
> people who are very willing to part with a $4 service charge
> and another $3.95 for a tube to get a flat repaired on the
> way to or from work in a few minutes rather than dirty their
> hands. Although we provide air (24 hours) and tools and a
> place to work (and even sell individual patches), not all
> cyclists find that interesting or appealing. My staff gets
> tips, and weekly a $5 or even $10 tip on a three minute tire
> change. There are also guys who ask for a single patch with
> a promise to come pay for it next week.
>
> To selling service-
> I once read something which I still recall clearly, "If you
> are only open 9 to 5 you are catering to the unemployed".
> And our regular clientele knows that the door is unlocked
> very early and very late. It's common for us to change a
> tire at 6:30 in the morning and at eleven at night. By
> common I mean an extra twelve or fifteen service tickets per
> week done on off-hours. Of course my neighborhood has more
> commuters than most. My neighborhood also has a lot of
> drunks tossing bottles, sadly.
>
>
> I know of LBS who service bicycles by appointment. Really, I
> am not kidding. Their community or their clientele
> apparently finds that acceptable. And not as an unusual
> event, either. From that I conclude there are very wide
> ranges of customer perception and expectation.
>
> (I couldn't do that with a straight face. "Your bike's
> broken? See you Wednesday" Not!)
>
> To margins-
> We get a higher per-hour rate for metalwork and machine tool
> time and anything on the lathe because it is skilled work,
> the tools cost more and we provide usually a lot more value
> for ten minutes with a torch than ten minutes with tire
> levers and a wrench. My point I guess is that margins do
> vary in innumerable ways and for a lot of good ( and
> sometime silly) reasons. I do not know of any business with
> a consistent margin across the entire operation. Even 99c
> stores buy for both a nickel and for 80c, yet price them
> all the same.
>
> Further, we do not mark up some things, such as Shimano
> components, by enough to cover even the freight cost of
> getting it here. That situation has become like a camera
> store, where the objective is just to lose as little as
> possible on a sale. And so I keep only one piece usually,
> relying on my supplier for next-day fill in. Even at that
> margin ( roughly +8%) we are not competitive with large
> volume or grey market vendors. So do I cry about it? Hell
> no. We concentrate our efforts to selling products with
> more room to earn a living.
>
> If an LBS charges , say, twenty percent on a Shimano product
> ( a rate at which most retailers of hardgoods would just not
> bother) he's sure to find his customer is derided on next
> Sunday's ride for paying that extra $3 and made to look a
> fool. Not good for repeat business. Peter has mentioned
> that sort of problem here often. It's aggravating but not an
> impossible situation. No rule says you must sell it.
>
> And others suffer more. I know a woman who runs a
> convenience store. They clear 2 to 3 cents on a gallon of
> gas. From which they pay for the equipment, equipment
> service, staff, liability and they handle (risk) immense
> amounts of cash and taxes. We suffer much less than they.
>
> Yes, we seek items which are unique or impulse or new or in
> some way allow us enough margin to both pay the rent and the
> staff. I am not only not ashamed of that, I'm proud of it.
> If enough cyclists agree that we provide value, we'll
> survive; else not.
>
> I noted a comment earlier about $100 to build a wheel. That
> cannot possibly be true, is it?
>
> And someone else mentioned charging a $4 service fee for a
> minor derailleur adjustment. Really? Most shops I know are
> happy to spend a minute of two on that sort of thing gratis.
> In the retelling, that story could just as well have been
> about a derailleur tab alignment, maybe removing and
> lubricating a stuck pulley, perhaps unkinking a gear wire
> and a few other things along the way for $4. My point is
> that we were not there and we don't know what was actually
> done. The time to complain was at the moment you were
> standing there with the owner , not here. Are there clip
> joints? Sure. That hardly represents LBS at large.
>
> Like most small businesses we are here because we have been
> able to adapt, to wend our way through a new environment
> every year and to listen.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
mark
I got a bit of the "if you aren't buying a really expensive new bike"
syndrome. While shopping there.
I wasn't at the time, and when the time came I didn't buy there. Ended up
at Spokes and was, and am, really happy with their attitudes and service.
Just my .02
--
mark
Outside a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside a dog it is too dark to read - Groucho Marx
xes out for mail
"Eric S. Sande" <esa...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:40096B3D...@erols.com...
mark
--
mark
Outside a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside a dog it is too dark to read - Groucho Marx
xes out for mail
"Zippy the Pinhead" <the_corpo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8t8j001en7vks9kir...@4ax.com...
HardwareLust
Come on up to Seattle some time, we're overrun with ilk sometimes... ;-P
HardwareLust
"BB" <bbauer...@freeshell.org> wrote in message
news:bubtbn$g01u7$1...@ID-130844.news.uni-berlin.de...
True, but I was peeved, and painting with an overly broad brush.
There are indeed still good LBS's our there, and there are three in the
Seattle area that I know of, and I'll happily drive or ride for miles to go
visit or if I need something immeadiately. Unfortunately, Bikesmith is one
of them, so we're probably down to two now.
Eric S. Sande
Moderately. I favor the Bike Shop at Dupont Circle.
The one with the hardware store attached.
cheg
>
> There are indeed still good LBS's our there, and there are three in
the
> Seattle area that I know of, and I'll happily drive or ride for
miles to go
> visit or if I need something immeadiately. Unfortunately,
Bikesmith is one
> of them, so we're probably down to two now.
>
>
What are the other shops that you like? I used to go to Wright Bros.
when I lived in Ballard but it's pretty far from my house now.
David Damerell
>What you are paying for is not the %20 worth of service, but the fact
>that the bike is there, on the wall, can be pulled down, touched,
>hefted, ridden, compared with another bike, and the clerk can tell you
>that another guy your size tried this other bike and found it fitted
>better.
And that the stuff is right there, right now. If you commute by bike
(which I know Guy does) and something breaks, you want a replacement right
away; even if you have a spare bike, until the spare part arrives, you're
not on your preferred machine.
I have one bike; every day I wait to fix it costs me 4 quid for the train
and a good hour of extra commuting time. Will I pay 20% extra at an LBS?
Sure.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Jonesy
[snip]
> If an LBS charges , say, twenty percent on a Shimano product
> ( a rate at which most retailers of hardgoods would just not
> bother) he's sure to find his customer is derided on next
> Sunday's ride for paying that extra $3 and made to look a
> fool. Not good for repeat business. Peter has mentioned
> that sort of problem here often. It's aggravating but not an
> impossible situation. No rule says you must sell it.
I suppose that there are some who rudely question what others have
paid for their gear. How it is anyone else's business what you paid
for a particular part is beyond me.
> And others suffer more. I know a woman who runs a
> convenience store. They clear 2 to 3 cents on a gallon of
> gas. From which they pay for the equipment, equipment
> service, staff, liability and they handle (risk) immense
> amounts of cash and taxes. We suffer much less than they.
Being one's own boss has it's benefits and risks. Just like any other
sort of endeavour.
> Yes, we seek items which are unique or impulse or new or in
> some way allow us enough margin to both pay the rent and the
> staff. I am not only not ashamed of that, I'm proud of it.
> If enough cyclists agree that we provide value, we'll
> survive; else not.
And if you are nice, and I come in and look, just to see what prices
are (including your labor charges), then you may get my business. If
you ignore me, or give me attitude because I'm not buying the most
expensive bike on the floor, then I'll walk out. Or try to tell me
that you did maintenance and a tune up, charge me $60 dollars, and
when I get home, I find the hubs overtightened and grit all over the
drivetrain, that's the last $60 you'll see of mine.
> I noted a comment earlier about $100 to build a wheel. That
> cannot possibly be true, is it?
That was me, and it's true. $100/wheel was the quoted price. I asked
if that included spokes and nipples. I was told that it did not, but
that the wheel was guaranteed for life. When pressed, that means
they'd work on the wheelbuild in the future, gratis, but that I'd
still have to buy replacement parts. That might be a good deal for
someone - heck that might just be a good deal - but it seemed
outrageous to me. In anger, I bought Jobst's book, and did it myself.
Haven't touched them since, and have ridden the heck out of them.
> And someone else mentioned charging a $4 service fee for a
> minor derailleur adjustment. Really? Most shops I know are
> happy to spend a minute of two on that sort of thing gratis.
And I can do it just fine in my garage in the same amount of time.
> In the retelling, that story could just as well have been
> about a derailleur tab alignment, maybe removing and
> lubricating a stuck pulley, perhaps unkinking a gear wire
> and a few other things along the way for $4. My point is
> that we were not there and we don't know what was actually
> done. The time to complain was at the moment you were
> standing there with the owner , not here. Are there clip
> joints? Sure. That hardly represents LBS at large.
Unfortunately, the mythical good LBS is not any of the ones near me.
I know of one 300+ miles away, but that doesn't do me any good.
> Like most small businesses we are here because we have been
> able to adapt, to wend our way through a new environment
> every year and to listen.
I suspect that *you* do exactly that. And I applaud you - just as I
applaud those independent auto mechanics that do not cheat on car
repairs. They exist out there, but from what one reads in the
newspaper, they are few and far between. I have been exceedingly
lucky in that regard. Maybe just as my luck was good there, I was
just unlucky in my LBS choices.
The utter simplicity of the bicycle works against the LBS, when it
comes to maintenance and repair. But the requirement of good fit
works for the LBS in that a trained professional can make your bike
choice one of exceeding satisfaction.
In the end, the marginal LBSs that are near me drove me to learn how
to do for myself. That hurts everyone that has a B&M shop, because
it's just that much less likely that I'll bring my bike in anywhere I
end up. Shopping MO for me is not about money as much as it is about
the satisfaction of being able to do it myself, and avoiding the
stress of having to deal with a shop in the 10 minutes between the
time I get off work and the time they close. The money issue is not
insignificant, but it's not the top of the list either.
And the hassles listed of going MO instead of B&M? With
BeyondBikes.com, I did have a hassle with a couple of purchases, which
they bent over backwards to make right. Hell, they even offered to
sell me some stuff at cost, with free overnight, due to their
screw-up. I never got that kind of CS with any of the local shops. I
wouldn't recommend them, but they did try hard to fix the hassle. Oh,
yeah - they have a B&M presence in CA.
Other than that, my on-line and phone order MO experiences over the
years has been very pleasant, in direct contrast to most of my LBS
experiences.
R.F. Jones
john riley
> The problem with the LBS, atleast here in Canada is that they are screwed
> over by the US distributors.
Hmmm... my shop here in Toronto seems to get most stuff from Canadian
distributors, which are mostly over your way. They seem quite
hesitant to order from the US.
John Riley
Just zis Guy, you know?
<dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>And that the stuff is right there, right now. If you commute by bike
>(which I know Guy does) and something breaks, you want a replacement right
>away; even if you have a spare bike, until the spare part arrives, you're
>not on your preferred machine.
For this we have Bob Bristow's Bike Repair Sevice[1], Open All Hours,
all major banknote denominations accepted :-)
[1] Only available in Reading, Berkshire, UK
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
Chalo
> I was talking to Val Kleitz at the Bikesmith in Seattle today and he
> told me that he will have to go out of business in a couple of weeks.
Sure enough; I called my pal Soren (who works there) and got the scoop
about it. Turns out the landlord is kicking Val & Co. out of the
store soon, and nothing can be done at this point.
All free-market bullshit aside, The Bikesmith is not just another
shop. In a town full of great bike shops, it is the best-- the most
useful and interesting shop, in this or any other town, I have ever
seen. Its failure to prosper is tangible proof of the failure of
Sesttle to cultivate those things that make it unique.
My recent visit to Austin turned me on to a new and pervasive slogan
stickered, printed, and worn all over the place: "Keep Austin Weird -
Support Local Business". Sometimes people have to be reminded that
the things they love most about their communities can die of neglect!
That this town has room for a new SuperGo store to pop up just as The
Bikesmith is going under simply disgusts me. There are just so many
damn benighted tools and so few people who are willing to belong to
something worthwhile.
Anyway, my sincerest thanks go to The Bikesmith for being a light in
the darkness.
And Seattle, with its pervasive darkness and mercenary soul, can kiss
my ass.
Chalo Colina
Carl Fogel
Dear Chalo,
It sounds as if your friend works for someone
who has decided to go out of business instead
of leasing and moving into a new shop.
In all this fuss about a business ending, no
one seems to have asked the obvious question.
How badly did the owner want to continue?
Keep in mind, something like 95% of all small
businesses vanish within two years. Most of the
rest vanish when the owners grow old or tired.
For all I know, the owner may be secretly relieved.
He may be ending years of frustration and scraping
by, month by month. He may even be embarrassed by
all the noise here on rec.bicycles.tech. In business,
admiration and sympathy are pleasant, but neither
can replace profit.
Even if the owner is as unhappy, he's still more
sensible than most of the people posting about his
problem. If he wants to move to a new location, but
thinks that he can't afford it, then he was probably
hanging on by his fingernails anyway. It's unlikely
that there are no other buildings for rent in Seattle.
Bicycle shops in the U.S. face the problem that few
people care about bicycles. We're a rabid minority
here on rec.bicycles.tech-- we all too easily forget
that most bicycles do not need parts, service, or
replacement. They usually end up idle or tossed into
dumpsters.
When a business offers something that's wanted, it
usually makes money. Otherwise, we all talk about
what a shame it is and blame everyone else for not
buying enough of the things that we think they
should have wanted.
I understand why you're unhappy. I'm not pleased
to hear about anyone going out of business, whether
it's a bicycle shop or a branch of a national chain.
But getting angry at everyone else in Seattle and
telling them to kiss your ass for not spending more
money to support our mutual hobby is not much of a
business plan.
Carl Fogel
David Damerell
>I have one bike; every day I wait to fix it costs me 4 quid for the train
>and a good hour of extra commuting time. Will I pay 20% extra at an LBS?
>Sure.
Ha, I missed the conclusion; therefore the LBS will survive as long as
commuting and other utility cycling does. Recreational cyclists can wait
for MO, and they ultimately will have little need for LBSen.
[Yes, there are exceptions, like a tourist actually on tour...]
That said, if I were a big employer in a country like .nl where a lot of
people do commute by bike, I'd keep a reserve of basic spares around.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Chalo
> It sounds as if your friend works for someone
> who has decided to go out of business instead
> of leasing and moving into a new shop.
Actually, the landlord has reached his limit of patience with The
Bikesmith being late on rent. I could wish that he were more
charitable in this case, but that is not the inclination of landlords
IME.
It would be difficult to imagine that Val could take on a new, most
likely more expensive lease while already in arrears to the point of
eviction on his current one.
> In all this fuss about a business ending, no
> one seems to have asked the obvious question.
> How badly did the owner want to continue?
>
> Keep in mind, something like 95% of all small
> businesses vanish within two years. Most of the
> rest vanish when the owners grow old or tired.
>
> For all I know, the owner may be secretly relieved.
> He may be ending years of frustration and scraping
> by, month by month.
I certainly can't blame him if this is the case, but I have to wonder
about the virtue of a town in which some cheesy, basically worthless
bike shops can prosper but a truly helpful, expert, and well-versed
shop like Val Kleitz's can founder.
It's much the same as when chain "restaurants" thrive while local
owner-operated eateries fold, or when Wal-Mart exterminates entire
small-town economies in exchange for a few percent discount on
crappified goods.
Most folks are tools, proved so by their actions. I might have to
acknowledge it, but I don't have to approve of it.
Chalo Colina
Rick Onanian
wrote:
>I certainly can't blame him if this is the case, but I have to wonder
>about the virtue of a town in which some cheesy, basically worthless
>bike shops can prosper but a truly helpful, expert, and well-versed
>shop like Val Kleitz's can founder.
...then you'll have to wonder about the virtue of every town I've
seen. This is the condition everywhere; witness my previous comments
that the good LBS are struggling while the terrible ones are
expanding and raking in the dough.
>It's much the same as when chain "restaurants" thrive while local
>owner-operated eateries fold,
Unless you're talking about fast food, you're a bit wrong with that
one. A good LBS sells the same products as a bad one, but with
better service. There's no local owner-operated eatery where you can
get a steak or burger vaguely resembling the yummy stuff available
at themed chain steakhouses like Bugaboo Creek, The Outback, or The
Lone Star Steakhouse. The themes are silly, the environments loud,
the service often lacking, but the product can't be found elsewhere.
>or when Wal-Mart exterminates entire
>small-town economies in exchange for a few percent discount on
>crappified goods.
That's a closer analogy, except with LBS [at least here, where
there's no Performance or Supergo stores] there aren't big
conglomerates, just thriving local businesses with terrible service
and struggling ones with good service.
--
Rick Onanian
William Higley, Sr.
store in Seattle. I got over it and continue to support my LBS and the staff
they have.
I would mourn the passing of a great shop and move on with your life. You
may find that another shop (Supergo perhaps) may fill some of your needs and
is staffed with it's own wonderful people.
William Higley, Sr.
Vision R-50
RANS Rocket
"Rick Onanian" <spam...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:c26r009f4695nq4o0...@4ax.com...
BB
> I would mourn the passing of a great shop and move on with your life. You
> may find that another shop (Supergo perhaps) may fill some of your needs and
> is staffed with it's own wonderful people.
Just because its part of a company that has a MO biz doesn't necessarily
mean its going to have bad service. The Performance LBS in Portland has
been better than most.
--
-BB-
To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)
Matt O'Toole
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:59:30 -0800, William Higley, Sr. wrote:
>
>> I would mourn the passing of a great shop and move on with your
>> life. You may find that another shop (Supergo perhaps) may fill some
>> of your needs and is staffed with it's own wonderful people.
>
> Just because its part of a company that has a MO biz doesn't
> necessarily mean its going to have bad service. The Performance LBS
> in Portland has been better than most.
Ditto the old Performance store in Irvine, CA, which was easily the best "LBS"
in Orange County. Since they moved to a bigger mall in Tustin, they haven't
been quite the same (as of 2-3 years ago, anyway).
Matt O.
Carl Fogel
Dear Chalo,
Offering something of little value to the vast
majority of people is no recipe for easy economic
success.
That's why there are far more restaurants than
bicycle shops--people like to eat far more than
they like to ride bicycles.
Within a given field, offering helpful, expert,
well-versed advice is still no recipe for easy
economic success, unless the field is extremely
demanding.
A surprising number of things don't actually require
quite as much self-trumpeted expertise and advice as
we experts and advisers believe. Despite our dire
predictions, many people seem to get along just fine
without paying computer consultants, bicycle mechanics,
personal trainers, financial experts, psychologists,
travel guides, and other folks whose expertise is
often dwarfed by their self-importance.
Right now, there's an amusing thread ("What Bike to
Buy") in which a college student is asking for advice
about what kind of $800 bicycle to buy for a daily
round-trip commute of 4 miles and possibly joining
a bicycle group.
He's already been warned not to buy a bicycle without
extensive research and pestering the local bike stores
silly--and God forbid that he should commit suicide by
buying something with two wheels from WalMart that works
better than what my friends who were Boy Scouts rode to
earn merit badges by pedalling 50 miles to the mountains
and back.
If we work at it, I believe that we can terrify the boy
so badly with our expertise about carbon forks, the right
gear ratios, the best cleats, proper wheel-building,
whether to wear a helmet, Shimano versus Campagnolo,
quality parts, and the mysteries of frame fit that he'll
end up walking to class.
(Of course, then he'd need a lot of expert advice about
what kind of shoes to buy to avoid ruining his feet.)
While you're disgusted with a city that won't support
every bicycle shop that you like, I'm amazed by a country
where someone old enough to join the Marines sincerely
believes that he needs extensive expert advice to buy
a bicycle to ride less than ten minutes each way to
school--and we stand ready to reinforce that notion.
Beware of considering everyone else jerks just because
they don't share your interests or spend as much money
as you wish they would on things that you like. You
could end up a crank like me, wondering why there are
so few all-Vivaldi music stations in this heathen
wilderness.
Carl Fogel
HardwareLust
"William Higley, Sr." <willia...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:wuWdnamwmvI...@comcast.com...
> I was upset when my LBS lost a damn good hand to go manage some Supergo
> store in Seattle. I got over it and continue to support my LBS and the
staff
> they have.
That wouldn't be Manuel, would it?
Tom Blum
AMEN BROTHER!!!!
Miles of Smiles
Tom
"Carl Fogel" <carl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:8bbde8fc.04012...@posting.google.com...
Ian G Batten
Carl Fogel <carl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Right now, there's an amusing thread ("What Bike to
> Buy") in which a college student is asking for advice
> about what kind of $800 bicycle to buy for a daily
> round-trip commute of 4 miles and possibly joining
> a bicycle group.
Having not ridden a pedal bike for more than twenty years, I bought one
last spring while I was getting a bike as a seventh birthday present for
my daughter. I said ``while I'm here, one for me too'', and he handed
me a bike. Cost about two hundred quid ($350 now, $300 then). Total
time spent on decision: about sixty seconds.
I'm now riding 25 miles on towpaths most weekends, and have done the
fifty mile round trip to the office several times before the weather
closed in. I stuck some SPD pedals on it. Oh, and I had to have the BB
bearing changed within a few weeks, the bathtub curve working its magic,
so I took the opportunity to have a cartridge bearing put in at someone
else's expense.
I'm now trying to make a slightly more sophisticated job of buying
something a little lighter, a little more suspended (the current one's
rigid at both ends) and with better brakes. Net result so far: no money
spent, as each shop just confuses me with why the brands they happen to
sell are so much better than the brands everyone else sells.
ian
Donald Munro
> Lots of snipped paragraphs
> While you're disgusted with a city that won't support
> every bicycle shop that you like, I'm amazed by a country
> where someone old enough to join the Marines sincerely
> believes that he needs extensive expert advice to buy
> a bicycle to ride less than ten minutes each way to
> school--and we stand ready to reinforce that notion.
And I'm amazed that you have the time and energy to write such a long and
learned discourse about this.
S o r n i
> From the back of the choir loft:
>
> AMEN BROTHER!!!!
Umm, what the hell are you Amen-ing?!?
Bill "pick & choose from posts below" S.
*****************
G.T.
"S o r n i" <so...@bite-me.san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:nAxPb.1884$z03....@twister.socal.rr.com...
> Tom Blum wrote:
> > From the back of the choir loft:
> >
> > AMEN BROTHER!!!!
>
> Umm, what the hell are you Amen-ing?!?
>
> Bill "pick & choose from posts below" S.
>
Wow, Sorni, did you take over for me during my absence? If so, good job!
You can keep it!
Greg
S o r n i
Bill "bet Red Foreskin won't get it" S.
John Dacey
On 20 Jan 2004 20:58:08 -0800, carl...@comcast.net (Carl Fogel)
wrote:
>Beware of considering everyone else jerks just because
>they don't share your interests or spend as much money
>as you wish they would on things that you like. You
>could end up a crank like me, wondering why there are
>so few all-Vivaldi music stations in this heathen
>wilderness.
A recurring comment is that Vivaldi wrote the same concerto 500 times;
so you might not be troubled that a shop that is meaningfully
different from the common mold would want for enough of a customer
base to sustain itself.
-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
http://www.businesscycles.com
Now in our twenty-first year.
Our catalog of track equipment: eighth year online
-------------------------------
Eagle Jackson
>
> Offering something of little value to the vast
> majority of people is no recipe for easy economic
> success.
>
> Carl Fogel
Your note is a bolt of lightning piece of wisdom! Well done, Carl.
Smitty
carl...@comcast.net (Carl Fogel) wrote in message news:<8bbde8fc.04012...@posting.google.com>...
Chalo
> Beware of considering everyone else jerks just because
> they don't share your interests or spend as much money
> as you wish they would on things that you like. You
> could end up a crank like me, wondering why there are
> so few all-Vivaldi music stations in this heathen
> wilderness.
Aye. Thanks for a little perspective on the matter.
I went to the shop to see Val, round up a few odds and ends from the
place (now looking bombed and subsequently looted), and hopefully help
a bit with his bankruptcy arrangements. I believe that Val is apt to
be at least as happy and probably better-remunerated in whatever is to
follow in his career. It still grieves me sore that the community
will have lost something of value and gained nothing worthwhile in
return.
I understand that the storefront will soon hold a check-cashing place
to compete with the one already sitting directly across the street.
Part of our collective myth is an implicit promise, illusory perhaps,
that if one undertakes his calling with committment-- if he does what
he loves and is uncommonly good at doing-- then there will be a living
for him in that. And to see The Bikesmith close is to see that
promise broken. It just makes me wonder, why would we generally
prefer to take our business to slick, depersonalized showrooms staffed
by indifferent wage takers, than to a proprietor who is knowledgable
and passionately devoted to his craft? Isn't it what we wish for
ourselves-- to prosper doing work that we are drawn to anyway?
I have the exceedingly good fortune of a rewarding job that resembles
some of what I would be doing in a carefree retirement. I would like
to see every working person in such circumstances. Acting on this
wish means buying from businesses where the profit motive is secondary
to something else.
Chalo Colina
JP
Wal-Mart doesn't exterminate entire small-town economies, people do.
If you don't like the way Wal-Mart throws its economic weight around,
write your Congress-person, or vote for a Congress-person that will do
something about it. I happen to think that Wal-Mart and other
super-chains (maybe includes Performance/Nashbar in our own little
world) function as a monopolies and need to be regulated in some way.
It's interesting to consider that part of our "low" inflation rate
comes from prices being held down by paying minumum wage to sales
staff, killing off small business by the thousands, and destroying the
cultural diversity of small towns.
A few simple things, such as requiring corporations like Wal-Mart to
offer health care to everyone including part time help, raising the
minimum wage to a living wage and doing a better job of protecting
labor's right to organize might force them to compete on more equal
terms. Maybe a corporation with the monopolistic buying power of a
Wal-Mart should not be allowed to undersell the established prices in
communities it opens stores in.
Or we can just sit around and bitch about it. One thing that ain't
gonna work is to complain about people chasing the good deals.
JP
Matt O'Toole
> I understand that the storefront will soon hold a check-cashing place
> to compete with the one already sitting directly across the street.
A real high rent district, eh?
Maybe not enough yuppies to support a quality bike shop -- which is usually what
it takes.
Matt O.
bfd
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/101_pureopinions.html
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/rr_comfposition.html
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/bikes_framesize.html
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm
and last but not least, info from Sheldon Brown:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/beginners/index.html
Michael Zaharis
> Part of our collective myth is an implicit promise, illusory perhaps,
> that if one undertakes his calling with committment-- if he does what
> he loves and is uncommonly good at doing-- then there will be a living
> for him in that.
That's a promise that many self-help books like to promulgate (I know,
I've read them, and spent good money on career counselors who spout that
wisdom). There are any number of books that say, "Pick the thing you
really love, expend a lot of effort on it, and you'll be successful."
They then follow up with examples of people who succeeded by doing this.
What they don't often mention is that, in addition to that passion and
hard work, an under-served market needs to exist for the good or service
about which the entrepeneur is so passionate. I would speculate that,
for every 1 passionate, dedicated person making boatloads of money,
there are 50 passionate, dedicated people going bankrupt or just simply
paying the bills, because the area of their passion is in a saturated
market.
Penny S
. I would speculate that, for every 1 passionate,
> dedicated person making boatloads of money, there are 50 passionate,
> dedicated people going bankrupt or just simply paying the bills,
> because the area of their passion is in a saturated market.
more than likely the 49 don't know how to manage and market a specialty
niche.
penny s
Michael Zaharis
> Michael Zaharis wrote:
> .. I would speculate that, for every 1 passionate,