All the Elves should have asian features- PERIOD.
Ed Falis
> When I read the book, I've always pictured the Elves as having Asian
> features (that doesn't mean that they have to be Asian) and I've seen
> plenty of whites and blacks that have "asian" feature (the eyes, bone
> structure, delicate looking, high cheek bones, etc).
>
It would have been an interesting device for communicating the difference.
- Ed
Zark
"SF" <SF...@homail.com> wrote in message
news:rode4ugpj4qf7ht87...@4ax.com...
> First off the casting of the movie sucked, so we wont go there.
> Most of caucasian race (in our world) does not have the gracefulness
> to be Elf. If you are going to make a movie about a fantasy book, you
> should find the closes possible "people" to represent the characters
> in the book.
>
> Clearly, the movie casted popular (and talented, except for Liv)
> actors instead of equally talented and more fitting unknowns (or
> lesser known actors).
>
> When I read the book, I've always pictured the Elves as having Asian
> features (that doesn't mean that they have to be Asian) and I've seen
> plenty of whites and blacks that have "asian" feature (the eyes, bone
> structure, delicate looking, high cheek bones, etc).
>
> too hairy, ugly, clumsy to play elves.
>
> Most caucasian I know (here in the states) would make good Dwarves,
> they are short, stocky, and hairy. Strangely, I've meet a few Swedish
> people who would make great elves, tall, thin, slightly slated eyes
> (sorry, is there a better way to say that? , that would be slanted
> eyes from my "western world" round eye point of view, again sorry).
>
> So to be an elf you don't have to be Chinese, but the average white
> (caucasian) person doesn't have a pray of pulling it off.
Yeah - and if we give them Asian voices too - we could
pass them off as the Trade Federation.
;-)
Zark
> SF
Mhw61
actors instead of equally talented and more fitting unknowns (or
lesser known actors).
When I read the book, I've always pictured the Elves as having Asian
features (that doesn't mean that they have to be Asian) and I've seen
plenty of whites and blacks that have "asian" feature (the eyes, bone
structure, delicate looking, high cheek bones, etc).>>
Well, that's the beauty of it. I always imagined elves as looking a hell of a
lot like Liv Tyler (high cheek bones, slightly slanted blue (how not Asian)
eyes and slender rather than delicate.
Everybody has a different vision of what different characters looked like--even
Peter Jackson. Your Asian-featured elves are no more
definitive/authentic/correct than his interpretation. Period.
Max
"I've never made predictions and I never will."
--Paul Gascoigne
Darth Krystal
yes we wont because i thought they were all perfect. lets see the elves were
described as being mostly blonde and fair. Ive never seen a blonde asian have
you? And to me, white guys are very attractive, and there are alot of hot white
guys out there, including Elijah Wood and orlando bloom, and heck i though the
other hobbits were really cute too.
Rotwang
> First off the casting of the movie sucked, so we wont go there.
> to be Elf. If you are going to make a movie about a fantasy book, you
> should find the closes possible "people" to represent the characters
> in the book.
I think that a few people of unusual looks aside, humans should not be used
to portray Elves, better leave it to the photorealstic CG actors that will
be around some 10 years from now.
At a pinch you could use CG to change the facial features of people. A good
example of this is Fi Fi of the Playstation ads.
http://www.director-file.com/cunningham/531.html
http://www.director-file.com/cunningham/fifimoon.jpg
Cam Kirmser
> Most of caucasian race (in our world) does not have the gracefulness
> to be Elf.
Ever seen the Cirque de Soleil? I'd venture to guess that those caucasians
are pretty darn graceful.
> If you are going to make a movie about a fantasy book, you
> should find the closes possible "people" to represent the characters
> in the book.
Middle Earth is a story about prehistory Europe, not Asia. The people chosen
to play the parts are just as Tolkien imagined them to be. Sionce he's the
author, I'd say his view trumps political correctness.
>
> Clearly, the movie casted popular (and talented, except for Liv)
> actors instead of equally talented and more fitting unknowns (or
> lesser known actors).
>
> When I read the book, I've always pictured the Elves as having Asian
> features (that doesn't mean that they have to be Asian) and I've seen
> plenty of whites and blacks that have "asian" feature (the eyes, bone
> structure, delicate looking, high cheek bones, etc).
Just because you imagined them as Asians, doesn't mean that was JRRT's view.
Given that many Elves have light hair, I would say that Asian were not the
basis for Elves, despite your preconceptions.
*white guilt snipped*
Russ
(Darth Krystal) writes:
>>First off the casting of the movie sucked, so we wont go there.
>
>yes we wont because i thought they were all perfect. lets see the elves were
>described as being mostly blonde and fair.
Well, the Vanyar were but they are only seen in LOTR in the House of Finarfin
(i.e. Galadriel) because good old Arfinwe married a Vanya.
The Noldor were supposedly dark haired with some red hair thrown in as a
recessive.
Russ
<snip>
Russ
writes:
>So to be an elf you don't have to be Chinese, but the average white
>(caucasian) person doesn't have a pray of pulling it off.
>
>
>And BTW, I'm a white American, but I call it like I see it, and I've
>noticed most other people DON'T. So don't let you naturally bias
>views change and alter reality, thanks.
Elves are suppsed to the be *tall*. Have you been to Beijing recently? Not
many tall people.
Russ
Sharon Wells
tend to see their own race as beautiful (unless they've been programed not
to), and since Tolkien was White European, he described his Elves and Humans
and even the shorter Hobbits as looking like anglos. He never said anything
about pointed ears, just that Elves were 'fair' - and there's a very good
website with lots of quotes about or from
Legolas:http://www.gel.com.au/koala/legolas.htm
I personally was very happy with the casting after I saw the film. For some
reason I had always assumed that Legolas had dark hair, maybe because he's
Sindarin (at least we're told Thruanduil was), but we know nothing about his
mother. And Thranduil is related to Celeborn whose hair is silverish, so
maybe Thranduil's hair was light, too. We're not told.
But asian features? I think not. Maybe in YOUR version of LOTR, when you
illustrate it as you read it, but that's not what Tolkien wrote. The only
beings with slanted eyes are orcs, in the actual books. And also they're
described as having squinty eyes, too.
--
May the Force be with you,
Sharon
http://community4.webshots.com/user/kazren
"Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, because they are subtle and quick
to anger." ICQ# 7779224 http://jedi.4mg.com/index.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~kazren/ http://www.unitychurchnhb.org
"SF" <SF...@homail.com> wrote in message
news:rode4ugpj4qf7ht87...@4ax.com...
> First off the casting of the movie sucked, so we wont go there.
> Most of caucasian race (in our world) does not have the gracefulness
> to be Elf. If you are going to make a movie about a fantasy book, you
> should find the closes possible "people" to represent the characters
> in the book.
>
> Clearly, the movie casted popular (and talented, except for Liv)
> actors instead of equally talented and more fitting unknowns (or
> lesser known actors).
>
> When I read the book, I've always pictured the Elves as having Asian
> features (that doesn't mean that they have to be Asian) and I've seen
> plenty of whites and blacks that have "asian" feature (the eyes, bone
> structure, delicate looking, high cheek bones, etc).
>
> Honestly, for the most part, English and American caucasians, are far
> too hairy, ugly, clumsy to play elves.
>
> Most caucasian I know (here in the states) would make good Dwarves,
> they are short, stocky, and hairy. Strangely, I've meet a few Swedish
> people who would make great elves, tall, thin, slightly slated eyes
> (sorry, is there a better way to say that? , that would be slanted
> eyes from my "western world" round eye point of view, again sorry).
>
> So to be an elf you don't have to be Chinese, but the average white
> (caucasian) person doesn't have a pray of pulling it off.
>
>
> And BTW, I'm a white American, but I call it like I see it, and I've
> noticed most other people DON'T. So don't let you naturally bias
> views change and alter reality, thanks.
>
>
> SF
>
Aris Katsaris
"Russ" <mcr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020117190338...@mb-ch.aol.com...
>
> Well, the Vanyar were but they are only seen in LOTR in the House of Finarfin
> (i.e. Galadriel) because good old Arfinwe married a Vanya.
Good old Arafinwe married a Teler. His dad married a Vanya, and he inherited
the golden hair.
Aris Katsaris
Trinker
There are tall Chinese, too. In the north, particularly.
Not that I'm a big proponent of "Elves should be East Asian".
--Trinker
Michael O'Neill
[racial features]
Your predeliction for asian features on elves is understandable given
the fact that one cannot usually even see the cheekbones of fat white
Merkans; Elves are never described as having HUGE jowls IIRC.
However people other than asians have slanting eyes and high cheekbones
- you'll have to trust me on this one. The fact that you only associate
these Elvish features with asians could mean you have a lot of slim
asians and fat whites where you live, not so?
And you'd put the PERIOD...where?
M.
who...@wherever.com
: First off the casting of the movie sucked, so we wont go there.
: Most of caucasian race (in our world) does not have the gracefulness
: to be Elf. If you are going to make a movie about a fantasy book, you
: should find the closes possible "people" to represent the characters
: in the book.
: Clearly, the movie casted popular (and talented, except for Liv)
: actors instead of equally talented and more fitting unknowns (or
: lesser known actors).
Heh.. not to mention I wouldn't want any Asians in Middle Earth
(rather give us wuxia films, thank you).. but *before* the news of
the LOTR movie, of all its cast, I was only familiar with the names
of Elijah Wood and Ian Holm. There are (well, were) no stars in this
movie, and the casting was spot-on perfect, despite whatever you say.
Christian Hannibal
"SF" <SF...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qm1g4u0bkjg1kubts...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 00:38:33 GMT, "Sharon Wells"
> <kaz...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
SNIP
> I hate to say it, but people in the 50s (and before and after :( ),
> esp. the English had a pretty warped ego-centric view of the world.
> So, if someone is going to write a story, they are not thinking about
> black, white, or other, because in there mind everyone is white.
> That's more or less the reason (for a lot of problems), but people are
> saying it's a european story, but that's not an excuse or a reason for
> major limitations. I really didn't see any europeans in the movie,
> Right now England doesn't even want to join the European Union.
>
Oh really? They don't? Well, I guess there is no reason why they should have
the chairmanship of the European Union once in a while....or that they
should have members in the European Parlament....how strange that no one in
the other EU countries has not complained about this a little earlier....
If you referring to the fact that England has not joined the common
currency, the Euro, then the same goes for Denmark and Sweden, who never had
mighty empires or anything, so I guess that can't be the reason....maybe
they just don't want a United States of Europe....who knows?
By the way....the guy who played Merry...Dominic something is born in
Germany, Ian McKellen (Gandalf) is born in England, Billy Boyd (Peregrin) is
Scottish, Viggo Mortensen (Aragorn) is half Danish, Ian Holm (Bilbo) is also
from England,.......and so is Orlando Bloom (Legolas)....AND Christopher Lee
(Saruman)....AND Sean Bean (Boromir)...AND John Rhys-Davies (Gimli)....
So i guess you DID see some Europeans in the movie after all.... go see
www.imdb.com if you don't believe me
Hannibal
Rotwang
> you can hire an actor with loads of talent and tweak his/her look as
> needed.
That stuff was done on a girl sitting on a chair, it might be troublesome to
do that for a single actor for the duration of a movie.
John Austin
>
> >Yeah - and if we give them Asian voices too - we could
> >pass them off as the Trade Federation.
> >
> >;-)
> >
> >Zark
> >
> >
> >> SF
> >
>
>
> But so true, unfortunately.
>
> And that's why the new star wars movie(s) suck (or will suck).
Oh come on. They suck for SO many more reasons than this.
> Come on, are the back street boys really going to be in it, talk about
> "selling" out !!!
N'Sync, and they may or may not be in the film.
> SF
Derek
> You know what's funny, in 100 years, someone is going to remake these
> books into movies again, and do it right.
But what do you want to bet that there'll be a bunch of Tolkies sitting
around complaining about how bad it is and how it doesn't do justice to the
books?
--
Replace "nomail" with "email" to send mail.
Derek
> And that's why the new star wars movie(s) suck (or will suck).
>
> Come on, are the back street boys really going to be in it, talk about
> "selling" out !!!
Yes, but they DIE!!! They get to be uncredited extras, and they DIE!!! Oh,
what a happy thought. The end of another crappy boy-band! If only...
Paul Kellaway
"Christian Hannibal" <chan...@replacewithcool.dk> wrote in message
news:3c4826b1$0$62891$edfa...@dspool01.news.tele.dk...
>
> "SF" <SF...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:qm1g4u0bkjg1kubts...@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 00:38:33 GMT, "Sharon Wells"
> > <kaz...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
>
> SNIP
> > I hate to say it, but people in the 50s (and before and after :( ),
> > esp. the English had a pretty warped ego-centric view of the world.
> > So, if someone is going to write a story, they are not thinking about
> > black, white, or other, because in there mind everyone is white.
> > That's more or less the reason (for a lot of problems), but people are
> > saying it's a european story, but that's not an excuse or a reason for
> > major limitations. I really didn't see any europeans in the movie,
> > Right now England doesn't even want to join the European Union.
> >
>
> Oh really? They don't? Well, I guess there is no reason why they should
have
> the chairmanship of the European Union once in a while....or that they
> should have members in the European Parlament....how strange that no one
in
> the other EU countries has not complained about this a little earlier....
> If you referring to the fact that England has not joined the common
> currency, the Euro, then the same goes for Denmark and Sweden, who never
had
> mighty empires or anything, so I guess that can't be the reason....maybe
> they just don't want a United States of Europe....who knows?
David Wall
> "SF" <SF...@homail.com> wrote in message
>> If you are going to make a movie about a fantasy book, you
>> should find the closes possible "people" to represent the characters
>> in the book.
>
> Middle Earth is a story about prehistory Europe, not Asia. The people
> chosen to play the parts are just as Tolkien imagined them to be.
> Sionce he's the author, I'd say his view trumps political
> correctness.
Cuivienen was far in the east. Maybe a few Avari bred with humans, and
the descendents are east asians. Just a thought. I've never really
worried about what the elves look like -- but I think a young Grace Kelly
would fit my idea of Galadriel pretty well.
--
David Wall
dar...@one.net
Mhw61
She must have been wearing the same contacts in One Night at McKool's, That
Thing You Do and on the latest cover of Allure. I'll concede she's not the
world's greatest actress, but a) I thought she was good as Arwen and b) she
looks a lot like I always that Arwen would.
Don Jow
I concur with your view of "asian" eyes for the elves. It gives them a
touch of exotic and mistery. Besides, they don't have to be slanted or have
to have any other predominatly asian characteristic. Is it so hard to
imagine a slit-eyed caucasian???
Mojcot
SF...@hotmail.com wrote on 18/1/02 8:55:
>
> Remember that's how we see them, as slated eyes, so it's hard to have
> a "neutral" opinion. I'm sure Asians don't think their eyes are
> different, but ours are (round and goofy looking ?).
>
> I hate to say it, but people in the 50s (and before and after :( ),
> esp. the English had a pretty warped ego-centric view of the world.
> So, if someone is going to write a story, they are not thinking about
> black, white, or other, because in there mind everyone is white.
> That's more or less the reason (for a lot of problems), but people are
> saying it's a european story, but that's not an excuse or a reason for
> major limitations. I really didn't see any europeans in the movie,
> Right now England doesn't even want to join the European Union.
>
> So limiting modern movies to the "old world" view of the things is
> wrong way to go. And it has nothing to do with political correctness.
>
> The English have a sad history when it come to dealing with other
> peoples and cultures...just ask the Indians, French, Irish, need I go
> on... we don't really need that "point of view" in today's world.
> Thank god for America, right, hehe maybe not.
>
> I drove through North Carolina with a black friend of mine and got a
> flat tire, and when I was talking to the tow truck driver helping me
> out, he mention that I shouldn't be driving around with a Ni%$er in my
> car, that was 5 years ago, how do you think your average white person
> thought about "other" people way back then. No wonder "blacks" are
> only in "european" or american lit. when they are the central "tragic"
> figure and of course some "white man" is running to their
> aid...doesn't happen in all the major cities I've lived in. Maybe
> it's a white man's dream that he's going to go out of his way to help
> a lessor man in need (or woman for that matter) And some people wonder
> when they hear "other" people complain, laugh, or criticize gross
> ignorance.
>
>
>
> But for what's it's worth, I still enjoyed the movie, I guess I'm
> still a sap at heart, but Lucas still went too far with Jar Jar Binks,
> lol.
>
>
>
>
> SF
>
>
My dear SF, I think you missed the point.
LOTR is anglocentric because it means to be a anglo-saxon myth. All myths
are the-culture-to-wich-their-are-related centric.
Thus, any comment about its racist-etnophobic issues must be placed in that
context, in the same way people do automatically about, say, greek
mythology.
And then, when casting of a film comes, I think is rather fitting to hire
caucasian people to make the parts involved, because caucasian they are in
the books.
And about the movie, from my ppoint of view its main fault (apart of the
galadriel -lorien stuff, that was awfull) was that it is unfinished. I am
afraid will be need to wait to see the whole picture before judging it.
Greetings
Mojcot
Russ
<kats...@otenet.gr> writes:
<sigh> Of course. These House of Finwe connection can mess one up if you're
not careful.
Russ
Mhw61
imagine a slit-eyed caucasian??? >>
First Sea Lord Jackie Fisher was described as having "Asiatic" eyes, and Pete
Townsend once wrote that "All the best cowboys have Chinese eyes." My
grandfather and my grandson were/are both blond with almond-shaped blue eyes,
so it's certainly conceivable.
I never saw elves as having pointy ears or Asian features--I always saw them as
looking like exceptionally attractive, somewhat elongated Europeans (and I'm
sure that somewhere there are elves that are like exceptionally attractive
persons of other races, but they don't show up in LOTR). But I would never go
so far as to say that my view is correct-PERIOD. And the fact that Jackson's
view of elves isn't the same as mine doesn't impact my enjoyment of the movie
or the books at all.
Stefan Bruhn
>
>LOTR is anglocentric because it means to be a anglo-saxon myth. All myths
>are the-culture-to-wich-their-are-related centric.
So all the actors should be danish/german ?
Seeing as the anglos where from Jutland, and the saxons from Germany
(also danish heritage, as I recall it)
--
Mvh. Stefan
Website: http://www.3x7.dk/ | http://ghashul.dk/
"I demand the right to keep and arm bears"
"A computer without Windows, is like a fish without a bicycle"
Don Badowski
>
> There are tall Chinese, too. In the north, particularly.
I work with a northern Chinese woman immagrant. 5'10" and very thin. But I
don't know if she would make a good elf. I'll see if she has the hots for
Viggo Mortensen.
Taemon
>Just because you imagined them as Asians, doesn't mean that was JRRT's
view.
>Given that many Elves have light hair, I would say that Asian were not
the
>basis for Elves, despite your preconceptions.
SF talked about people with Asian features, not necessarily Asian
people. I wholly agree by the way, but that's not the point. I wonder
why, if one can make a Gollum and Orcs and Uruk-hai that looked like
they did, it shouldn't be possible to make unearthly beautiful elves. It
disturbed me. Everyone gaping at Galadriel, and all _we_ got to see was
a merely good-looking human. I'd look to Wendy Pini to show us how elves
really look like.
<starts to run>
Greetings, T.
Don Jow
"Mojcot" <moj...@tercolero.es> wrote in message
news:B86E0349.55C5%moj...@tercolero.es...
> LOTR is anglocentric because it means to be a anglo-saxon myth. All myths
> are the-culture-to-wich-their-are-related centric.
>
> Thus, any comment about its racist-etnophobic issues must be placed in
that
> context, in the same way people do automatically about, say, greek
> mythology.
>
> And then, when casting of a film comes, I think is rather fitting to hire
> caucasian people to make the parts involved, because caucasian they are in
> the books.
>
This is true, but Tolkien did acknowledge dark skinned people, and has
stated that the elves have passed from the world, so there is no way only
Saxon-centric.
Considering that LOTR was meant to be an alternate story for the creation of
the world, I think it could be possible that the Asian characteristic of the
eastern people came from the elves that did not cross over to Aman, and
didn't have inhibitions to breed with humans (the noldor only cross bred
twice).
Sounds plausible, but don't take my word for it, because I'm Asian :)
Christian Hannibal
"Paul Kellaway" <paul.k...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a29h2a$vevpj$1...@ID-121285.news.dfncis.de...
As a student of politics, so am I!
paulh
wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 16:52:25 +0000, Mojcot <moj...@tercolero.es> wrote:
>
>>
>>LOTR is anglocentric because it means to be a anglo-saxon myth. All myths
>>are the-culture-to-wich-their-are-related centric.
>
>So all the actors should be danish/german ?
>Seeing as the anglos where from Jutland, and the saxons from Germany
>(also danish heritage, as I recall it)
That where they may have come from, but in contemporary usage
AngloSaxon is used as a term by the English to describe their
forebears. That fact that the Angles and the Saxons came from Germanic
tribes in Jutland and Saxony is well known, but doesn't mean that the
English people see themselves as German and Danes living England.
paulh.
James H Banks
No thanks, I'm perfectly happy with how PJ showed the elves in LOTR.
Rotwang <Rot...@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:COI18.6346$%t7.147...@hebe.telenet-ops.be...
>
> > First off the casting of the movie sucked, so we wont go there.
> > Most of caucasian race (in our world) does not have the gracefulness
> > to be Elf. If you are going to make a movie about a fantasy book, you
> > should find the closes possible "people" to represent the characters
> > in the book.
>
m
says...
> First off the casting of the movie sucked, so we wont go there.
> Most of caucasian race (in our world) does not have the gracefulness
> to be Elf. If you are going to make a movie about a fantasy book, you
> should find the closes possible "people" to represent the characters
> in the book.
>
> actors instead of equally talented and more fitting unknowns (or
> lesser known actors).
>
> features (that doesn't mean that they have to be Asian) and I've seen
> plenty of whites and blacks that have "asian" feature (the eyes, bone
> structure, delicate looking, high cheek bones, etc).
>
> Honestly, for the most part, English and American caucasians, are far
> too hairy, ugly, clumsy to play elves.
>
> Most caucasian I know (here in the states) would make good Dwarves,
> they are short, stocky, and hairy. Strangely, I've meet a few Swedish
> people who would make great elves, tall, thin, slightly slated eyes
> (sorry, is there a better way to say that? , that would be slanted
> eyes from my "western world" round eye point of view, again sorry).
>
> (caucasian) person doesn't have a pray of pulling it off.
>
>
> And BTW, I'm a white American, but I call it like I see it, and I've
> noticed most other people DON'T. So don't let you naturally bias
> views change and alter reality, thanks.
>
>
Racist f*ck !!!
Michael P. Reed
> Cuivienen was far in the east. Maybe a few Avari bred with humans, and
> the descendents are east asians. Just a thought. I've never really
> worried about what the elves look like -- but I think a young Grace Kelly
> would fit my idea of Galadriel pretty well.
Mr. Wall, either you know your film history--er, lore-- very well, or you are
damned old. <g> That said, you make an excellent point. Hmmm, how about
Claudette Colbert for Arwen, or to be a little more contemporary, Leslie Caron?
--
Regards,
Michael P. Reed
Morwen
18 Jan 2002 20:47:56 GMT:
5'10" isn't tall enough for an elf:)
Morwen, Guardian of the CHOKLIT sword Reforged
()===||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
MH
Michael P. Reed <mpr...@chartermi.net> wrote in message
news:%y428.57547$ch6.4...@news.easynews.com...
Leslie Caron would be perfect! She's very elf-like. Or, even more
contemporary, how about Bjork? Without the swan dress. : )
Stefan Bruhn
wrote:
>Leslie Caron would be perfect! She's very elf-like. Or, even more
>contemporary, how about Bjork? Without the swan dress. : )
I think I wouldn't have seen the movie if it had Bjork in it.
Oh well, nothing could keep me from seing it, but I would've been very
unhappy.
Stefan Bruhn
>
>That where they may have come from, but in contemporary usage
>AngloSaxon is used as a term by the English to describe their
>forebears. That fact that the Angles and the Saxons came from Germanic
>tribes in Jutland and Saxony is well known, but doesn't mean that the
>English people see themselves as German and Danes living England.
I know that :)
I just thought it was fun to point out.
Cam Kirmser
news:Xns919A71BBE46...@209.249.90.100...
That may be, but on the scale of Middle Earth, that'd be around eastern
Germany, maybe (at a stretch) Poland. Still a far cry from Asia. If you want
the slanted eye look, a Slavic race could handle that very well. But, I
still think that Tolkien had mid to western Europe in mind.
David Salo
<ckir...@xkillspamx.charter.net> wrote:
> > Cuivienen was far in the east. Maybe a few Avari bred with humans, and
> > the descendents are east asians. Just a thought. I've never really
> > worried about what the elves look like -- but I think a young Grace Kelly
> > would fit my idea of Galadriel pretty well.
>
> That may be, but on the scale of Middle Earth, that'd be around eastern
> Germany, maybe (at a stretch) Poland. Still a far cry from Asia. If you want
> the slanted eye look, a Slavic race could handle that very well. But, I
> still think that Tolkien had mid to western Europe in mind.
Assuming that the furthest western parts of Middle-earth are no
further west than Ireland, then eastern Germany/Poland would be as far
to the east as Mirkwood. Cuiviénen would be a lot farther east,
certainly as far as the Caspian Sea and quite possibly much further.
This is one case where the flat world > round world bit bollixes up the
maps, not to mention other catastrophic changes.
The place where the elves awoke was on the eastern shoreline of a
vast inland sea, which, depending upon Map V in The Shaping of
Middle-earth, could be construed as covering the Black, Caspian, and
Aral seas, and so would be approximately equivalent to the geologists'
"Paratethys Sea".
David Salo
Tom Holt
from "Cam Kirmser" <ckir...@xkillspamx.charter.net> contains these words:
>. If you want
> the slanted eye look, a Slavic race could handle that very well. But, I
> still think that Tolkien had mid to western Europe in mind.
I've always visualised the Elves as generally Slavonic-looking
Michael P. Reed
wrote:
> Leslie Caron would be perfect! She's very elf-like. Or, even more
> contemporary, how about Bjork? Without the swan dress. : )
What the hell is a Bjork? [Images of Swedish Chef from the muppets here]
Paul Kellaway
Wow it feels like being in the A-team, or the village people, well, not
really.
Jette Goldie
You are joking of course?
Bjork is a "who" not a "what".
She's a singer*, born in Iceland, who is..... somewhat "pixieish"
in looks.
(*she calls it singing, at any rate)
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html
Flame of the West
> Honestly, for the most part, English and American caucasians, are far
> too hairy, ugly, clumsy to play elves.
Oh yeah, Liv Tyler, what a dog! And Orlando Bloom, repulsive.
--
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
Flame of the West
> And to me, white guys are very attractive,
<blushes> We are, aren't we?
Flame of the West
> > When I read the book, I've always pictured the Elves as having Asian
> > features (that doesn't mean that they have to be Asian) and I've seen
> > plenty of whites and blacks that have "asian" feature (the eyes, bone
> > structure, delicate looking, high cheek bones, etc).
> >
>
> It would have been an interesting device for communicating the difference.
Then who would play the Easterlings? :-0
Russ
<lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
Slavs tend to have rounder faces and be a bit shorter than the nordic norm.
Russ
Ed Falis
> Ed Falis wrote:
>
>
>>>When I read the book, I've always pictured the Elves as having Asian
>>>features (that doesn't mean that they have to be Asian) and I've seen
>>>plenty of whites and blacks that have "asian" feature (the eyes, bone
>>>structure, delicate looking, high cheek bones, etc).
>>>
>>>
>>It would have been an interesting device for communicating the difference.
>>
>
> Then who would play the Easterlings? :-0
Got a point there (not that I was strongly advocating the idea, just
musing on how some other physical difference than pointed ears might be
used as a device for differentiating men and elves).
Interesting, though, I never visualized the Easterlings as Asian,
probably thought of them more as slavic.
= Ed
David K. Wall
> In message <Xns919A71BBE46...@209.249.90.100>, David Wall
> wrote:
>
>> Cuivienen was far in the east. Maybe a few Avari bred with humans,
>> and the descendents are east asians. Just a thought. I've never
>> really worried about what the elves look like -- but I think a young
>> Grace Kelly would fit my idea of Galadriel pretty well.
>
> Mr. Wall, either you know your film history--er, lore-- very well, or
> you are damned old. <g>
It depends on what you call old. Late 30s. I'm certainly no expert in
film lore. When I was a poor grad student, I rented lots of old movies
because they were cheap. (US$1 per movie) Besides, just this afternoon
I watched Grace Kelly in "Dial M for Murder" on cable TV.
> That said, you make an excellent point.
Thank you.
> Hmmm, how about Claudette Colbert for Arwen, or to be a little more
> contemporary, Leslie Caron?
Claudette Colbert... I can just see Aragorn headed out of Rivendell, and
Arwen on the side of the path showing him a leg. "Going my way,
Ranger?" ("It happened one night", 1931 IIRC) If I could get past that
sort of image of her, I think she'd work quite well.
Leslie Caron was born about two years after Grace Kelly. (1931 vs 1929)
Once you get past 25 years old or so, that's practically the same age, in
my opinion. Or is there a younger person with the same name I don't know
about?
--
David Wall - dar...@one.net
"When the end of the world comes, I want to be in Cincinnati. Everything
happens ten years later there." -- Mark Twain
MH
Jette Goldie <jette...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e3y28.5517$Et4.34...@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
> Michael P. Reed <mpr...@chartermi.net> wrote in message
> news:INr28.93354$sh6....@news.easynews.com...
> > In message
<kvb28.109104$fe1.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "MH"
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Leslie Caron would be perfect! She's very elf-like. Or, even more
> > > contemporary, how about Bjork? Without the swan dress. : )
> >
> > What the hell is a Bjork? [Images of Swedish Chef from the muppets
here]
>
> You are joking of course?
>
> Bjork is a "who" not a "what".
>
> She's a singer*, born in Iceland, who is..... somewhat "pixieish"
> in looks.
>
> (*she calls it singing, at any rate)
I love her singing and her songs. Michael has to get out more and away from
his computer if he's never heard of Bjork. SHe's been around for quite a
qhile, starting her career in a little Icelandic band called the Sugarcubes.
Ermanna
SF made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
<shnip>
> >Everybody has a different vision of what different characters looked like--even
> >Peter Jackson. Your Asian-featured elves are no more
> >definitive/authentic/correct than his interpretation.
>
> I agree, there is no right human person or mix
What?
> (maybe not, let's
> search the world ! ).
Thankfully, Jackson has buried that need.
> But clearly those cast don't pull it off, but
> you can't have everything.
My dear SF, because _you_ envision Elves with Asian features
doesn't meant they must be. Because the cast doesn't work
for _you_ doesn't mean they were bad.
<shnip>
> and there are people in this world that
> could perfectly represent characters from books (and comics), but
> unfortunately (for us at least) they are not actors...
I thought Legolas, Frodo, and Gimli were unusually well-cast.
(and Orlando Bloom and Elijah Wood are sooo beautiful...)
> SF
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell,
Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School,
Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles
And, no, I don't just like their performances because
they're good-looking. I only started paying attention
when I decided that they were playing Frodo and
my Legolas well.
Ermanna
Michael O'Neill made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
> SF wrote:
> [racial features]
>
> Your predeliction for asian features on elves is understandable given
> the fact that one cannot usually even see the cheekbones of fat white
> Merkans; Elves are never described as having HUGE jowls IIRC.
I thought SF was against caucasians without Asian features,
not merely Americans. I'd say something nasty about the Irish,
but I know there are many nice ones and I'm part Irish (wish I
was more, though).
<waves to David>
<shnip>
> M.
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell,
Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School,
Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles
Michael, you and SF are to sit in the corner (unless, of course,
I'm accidentally stepping into MOM's territory?).
Ermanna
SF made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
<shnip>
> You know what's funny, in 100 years, someone is going to remake these
> books into movies again, and do it right.
As I imagine the only way to "do it right" will be for you
to make some movies yourself, you'd better start looking
for some Asian-featured non-caucasians for the Elves.
> Imagine 100 hours of accurate CG story telling...
I don't think a LotR movie including everything would take
more than 20 hours, much less 100.
> CG will probably
> change the way people write fiction.
Why?
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell,
Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School,
Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles
Elbereth Gilthoniel!
Ermanna
Sharon Wells made dwagin-sized wripples Force:
<shnip>
> I personally was very happy with the casting after I saw the film.
Of course you were. You should be.
> For some
> reason I had always assumed that Legolas had dark hair, maybe because he's
> Sindarin (at least we're told Thruanduil was), but we know nothing about his
> mother. And Thranduil is related to Celeborn whose hair is silverish, so
> maybe Thranduil's hair was light, too. We're not told.
We are told Thranduil's hair color in The Hobbit. Golden.
<shnip>
> --
> May the Force be with you,
And with you.
Please don't top-post.
> Sharon
>
> http://community4.webshots.com/user/kazren
> "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, because they are subtle and quick
> to anger." ICQ# 7779224 http://jedi.4mg.com/index.html
> http://home.earthlink.net/~kazren/ http://www.unitychurchnhb.org
<shnip>
Ermanna
Don Jow made dwagin-sized wripples Force:
<shnip>
> Considering that LOTR was meant to be an alternate story for the creation of
> the world,
Pssst! The War of the Ring happened long after Eru created
the world!
> I think it could be possible that the Asian characteristic of the
> eastern people came from the elves that did not cross over to Aman, and
> didn't have inhibitions to breed with humans (the noldor only cross bred
> twice).
I can only think of one time. What's the other? Arwen?
> Sounds plausible, but don't take my word for it, because I'm Asian :)
How would being Asian invalidate your opinion, mewonders?
Ermanna
SF made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
<shnip>
> wrong way to go.
Who cares about the "'old world' view of things"? With Me,
it's Tolkien's that matter!
> And it has nothing to do with political correctness.
Really?
<shnip>
> Thank god for America, right, hehe maybe not.
>From another American, bite me.
> I drove through North Carolina with a black friend of mine and got a
> flat tire, and when I was talking to the tow truck driver helping me
> out, he mention that I shouldn't be driving around with a Ni%$er in my
> car, that was 5 years ago, how do you think your average white person
> thought about "other" people way back then. No wonder "blacks" are
> only in "european" or american lit. when they are the central "tragic"
> figure and of course some "white man" is running to their
> aid...doesn't happen in all the major cities I've lived in. Maybe
> it's a white man's dream that he's going to go out of his way to help
> a lessor man in need (or woman for that matter) And some people wonder
> when they hear "other" people complain, laugh, or criticize gross
> ignorance.
Every large group has its jerks. Is that a reason to despise all of
the group, like, say, whatever group you belong to?
> But for what's it's worth, I still enjoyed the movie, I guess I'm
> still a sap at heart, but Lucas still went too far with Jar Jar Binks,
> lol.
Why do you keep mentioning Star Wars? This is a Tolkien
newgroup.
> SF
Ermanna
SF made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
The casting was exceptional, and that's a fact!
> Most of caucasian race (in our world) does not have the gracefulness
> to be Elf.
Which, if true, means Jackson was lucky to find some of these
few!
> If you are going to make a movie about a fantasy book, you
> should find the closes possible "people" to represent the characters
> in the book.
Why?
> Clearly, the movie casted popular (and talented, except for Liv)
> actors instead of equally talented and more fitting unknowns (or
> lesser known actors).
So you had heard of Orlando Bloom beforehand?
> When I read the book, I've always pictured the Elves as having Asian
> features (that doesn't mean that they have to be Asian) and I've seen
> plenty of whites and blacks that have "asian" feature (the eyes, bone
> structure, delicate looking, high cheek bones, etc).
Fine, that's your right.
> Honestly, for the most part, English and American caucasians, are far
> too hairy, ugly, clumsy to play elves.
Funny how some have managed it. Or isn't Orlando Bloom
beautiful enough for you?
<shnip>
> So to be an elf you don't have to be Chinese, but the average white
> (caucasian) person doesn't have a pray of pulling it off.
Few people, caucasian or not, have a prayer of pulling it off.
> And BTW, I'm a white American, but I call it like I see it, and I've
> noticed most other people DON'T.
I call it like I see it, too, and what I see is that you think
your opinions are facts.
> So don't let you naturally bias
> views change and alter reality, thanks.
You seem to be naturally biased against caucasians.
Ermanna
Christian Hannibal made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
<shnip>
> Ian Holm (Bilbo) is also
> from England,
<snip>
> AND John Rhys-Davies (Gimli)....
Um, I think he's from Wales.
> So i guess you DID see some Europeans in the movie after all.... go see
> www.imdb.com if you don't believe me
Orlando Bloom has a very nice English accent. :-)
> Hannibal
Jette Goldie
Ermanna <Erm...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3C4BBFA9...@erols.com...
>
> Christian Hannibal made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
> <shnip>
> > Ian Holm (Bilbo) is also
> > from England,
> <snip>
> > AND John Rhys-Davies (Gimli)....
>
> Um, I think he's from Wales.
Confirmed - and he's strengthened his native accent
for the part of Gimli. I suppose it's apt - Wales is a
land of short guys who do a lot of mining ;-)
>
> > So i guess you DID see some Europeans in the movie after all.... go see
> > www.imdb.com if you don't believe me
>
> Orlando Bloom has a very nice English accent. :-)
>
Which isn't terribly surprising for an Englishman ;-)
And Billy Boyd has a lovely Scottish accent ;-)
--
Jette
(aka Vinyaduriel)
Christian Hannibal
> <shnip>
> > Ian Holm (Bilbo) is also
> > from England,
> <snip>
> > AND John Rhys-Davies (Gimli)....
>
> Um, I think he's from Wales.
>
is indeed born in England, but I guess you're right since I found another
biography, http://www.dragoncon.org/people/rhysdaj.html that supports that
he is Welsh-born, but born in England..!?!
*SNIP*
>
> Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell,
> Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School,
> Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles
>
> Elbereth Gilthoniel!
>
Hannibal
Mhw61
> actors instead of equally talented and more fitting unknowns (or
> lesser known actors). >>
Do you mean Liv unpopular or untalented in your parenthetical remarks?
Nobody in this movie would have been the lead in a typical American
blockbuster. Julia Roberts as Arwen? Now that would have been casting for the
masses.
Max
"I've never made predictions and I never will."
--Paul Gascoigne
wrob
> Racist f*ck !!!
How typical.
Since M-E is supposed to be our ENTIRE world in prehistoric times,
it makes no sense to assert that it had no asians, and it seems
vaguely white-supremacist when folks say they'd "prefer not to
imagine asians in their M-E". It also makes no sense to assert
that because Orcs had "Mongol-like" features (consciously ascribed
by Tolkien as a way to make them seem "other" to the Western mind)
that asians were on the side of evil or are somehow supposed to
represent white people who were "deformed" by Morgoth (as I'm
no doubt some of the modern-day fascists who've embraced
sword-and-sorcery lit would love to claim).
BTW, to learn about Tolkien's view on people with "Asian" features
and their relationship with the Enemy, read up on the Lossoth and
the Pukel-men. This should also dispel the notion that the presence
of asians somehow "ruins" the "European mythic flavor" of the work.
The original myths on which German culture is based were a product
of interactions with asian cultures from the east -- and non-Caucasian
Celts (who admittedly were a more likely derivant for the Noldor, if
not for all Prof. T's Elves). The leading character in the original
Rings saga (and some think inspiration for the tale) was Asian.
-Ber
Tamfiiris Gloruloke
>>forebears. That fact that the Angles and the Saxons came from Germanic
>>tribes in Jutland and Saxony is well known, but doesn't mean that the
>>English people see themselves as German and Danes living England.
>I know that :)
>I just thought it was fun to point out.
that's what *you* say! in truth, you want a role of your own in the movie!
but i tell you, half a dane is more than enough. if we're after ethereal
beauty and... um... speaking an incomprehensible language and... stuff, we
should go for the norwegians.
or something.
--
Tamf
Two things are certain, death and cake. (Luke)
the softrat
<gnu...@oink.co.uk> wrote:
>that's what *you* say! in truth, you want a role of your own in the movie!
>but i tell you, half a dane is more than enough. if we're after ethereal
>beauty and... um... speaking an incomprehensible language and... stuff, we
>should go for the norwegians.
>
is no 'Standard Norewegian'. Each village thinks that its dialect is
proper Norwegian. Not even the Danes would put up with this kind of
happy horseshit.
Therefore, no one knows how to actually pronounce Norwegian and,
actually, almost no one cares.
"Hen er Norsk" or "Chickens are Norwegians."
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Dough, the stuff, that buys my beer, Ray, the guy that tends the
bar, Me, the guy, who drinks my beer, Far, the distance to the
bar, So, I think I'll have a beer, La, Laa lAA lAh LaH LAA
LAAAH! Tea, no thanks I want a beer, which brings us back to
Dough Dough Dough!
Tamfiiris Gloruloke
>Norwegians are so individualistic (read 'out-of-control') that there
>is no 'Standard Norewegian'. Each village thinks that its dialect is
>proper Norwegian. Not even the Danes would put up with this kind of
>happy horseshit.
lol! beloved ratticus, you crack me up. are your norwegian lessons really
going that badly?
>Therefore, no one knows how to actually pronounce Norwegian and,
>actually, almost no one cares.
and if they do, we just say we invented a new one. true story, film at 11.
>"Hen er Norsk" or "Chickens are Norwegians."
'hen' is actually the gender-neutral personal pronoun of certain feminist
characters. are you talking about yourself again, theso?
--
Tamf
how beautiful they are, / the lordly ones
who dwell in the hills, / in the hollow hills. (Fiona Macleod)
David Salo
> Since M-E is supposed to be our ENTIRE world in prehistoric times,
> it makes no sense to assert that it had no asians, and it seems
> vaguely white-supremacist when folks say they'd "prefer not to
> imagine asians in their M-E".
> The original myths on which German culture is based were a product
> of interactions with asian cultures from the east -- and non-Caucasian
> Celts (who admittedly were a more likely derivant for the Noldor, if
> not for all Prof. T's Elves). The leading character in the original
> Rings saga (and some think inspiration for the tale) was Asian.
You mean Attila? The Hun, I mean, not to be confused with Attila
"Monkeyface" Morenaughtie?
Anyway, I shudder a bit whenever I see people talk about "whites"
or "Caucasians". The second term should only be used to refer to
Georgians, Abkhazians, Ossetes, and their ilk; the first term is
meaningless. Who is "white" and who is not? I can probably find
people saying that the Spanish, the Greeks, the Italians, anyone from
the Balkans, all Slavs, Lapps, Finns and Celts are "not white". On the
other hand, one can just as easily extend the definition of "whiteness"
so that it includes Ethiopians, Indians, and Japanese. In other words:
a useless category. Scientists don't recognize racial groupings as
meaningful; attempts to categorize humanity on a variety of criteria
(from skin color to blood type and beyond) result in a contradictory
range of clines going in opposite directions. I see no reason to
bother with the disproven inventions of 19th-century
pseudo-anthropology.
DS
Trinker
Ermanna wrote:
>
> SF made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
> > Imagine 100 hours of accurate CG story telling...
>
> I don't think a LotR movie including everything would take
> more than 20 hours, much less 100.
Oh, I think that SF is underestimating the time necessary...clearly,
to satisfy the most people, there should be a one to one ratio
between time depicted in the books, and time depicted on screen.
If you can't make a committment of at least a year (because,
sadly, we can't make it be *thousands* of years), then the movie
isn't worth doing!
<yes, that was tongue firmly in cheek>
--Trinker
Michael P. Reed
> Michael P. Reed <mpr...@chartermi.net> wrote:
> > Hmmm, how about Claudette Colbert for Arwen, or to be a little more
> > contemporary, Leslie Caron?
>
> Claudette Colbert... I can just see Aragorn headed out of Rivendell, and
> Arwen on the side of the path showing him a leg. "Going my way,
> Ranger?" ("It happened one night", 1931 IIRC) If I could get past that
> sort of image of her, I think she'd work quite well.
Think "Drums Along the Mohawk," but braver. [And why in the hell would you
want to get past that image?]
> Leslie Caron was born about two years after Grace Kelly. (1931 vs 1929)
> Once you get past 25 years old or so, that's practically the same age, in
> my opinion. Or is there a younger person with the same name I don't know
> about?
I always thought Grace Kelly was much older (but then what do I know, I'm only
in my mid-thirties), but 1931 sounds about right. The image I have of her is
in "Father Goose" and that was filmed around 1962 IIRC, and she was about
thirtish in that picture. All that is left is to find an Eowyn. Barbara Eden
perhaps? I have some problem with visualizing her as a warrior type, but the
naive hero worship fits her to the bill, IMHO.
--
Regards,
Michael P. Reed
Michael P. Reed
wrote:
>
> Jette Goldie <jette...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:e3y28.5517$Et4.34...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> >
> > Michael P. Reed <mpr...@chartermi.net> wrote in message
> > news:INr28.93354$sh6....@news.easynews.com...
> > > In message
> <kvb28.109104$fe1.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> > "MH"
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Leslie Caron would be perfect! She's very elf-like. Or, even more
> > > > contemporary, how about Bjork? Without the swan dress. : )
> > >
> > > What the hell is a Bjork? [Images of Swedish Chef from the muppets
> here]
> >
> > You are joking of course?
> >
> > Bjork is a "who" not a "what".
> >
> > She's a singer*, born in Iceland, who is..... somewhat "pixieish"
> > in looks.
> >
> > (*she calls it singing, at any rate)
>
> I love her singing and her songs. Michael has to get out more and away from
> his computer if he's never heard of Bjork.
Actually, the only place I have heard of her is on the computer. I really do
not go in for modern music much. The last good song was written in 1982. <g>
> SHe's been around for quite a
> qhile [sic],
"While" being entirely subjective.
> starting her career in a little Icelandic band called the Sugarcubes.
ISTR hearing of them. Don't know of anybody who actually listened though.
Michael P. Reed
wrote:
> > What the hell is a Bjork? [Images of Swedish Chef from the muppets here]
>
> You are joking of course?
No.
> Bjork is a "who" not a "what".
>
> She's a singer*, born in Iceland, who is..... somewhat "pixieish"
> in looks.
Ah.
> (*she calls it singing, at any rate)
That pretty much sums up modern music. <g>
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> Anyway, I shudder a bit whenever I see people talk about "whites"
>or "Caucasians". The second term should only be used to refer to
>Georgians, Abkhazians, Ossetes, and their ilk; the first term is
>meaningless. Who is "white" and who is not? I can probably find
>people saying that the Spanish, the Greeks, the Italians, anyone from
>the Balkans, all Slavs, Lapps, Finns and Celts are "not white". On the
>other hand, one can just as easily extend the definition of "whiteness"
>so that it includes Ethiopians, Indians, and Japanese. In other words:
>a useless category. Scientists don't recognize racial groupings as
>meaningful; attempts to categorize humanity on a variety of criteria
>(from skin color to blood type and beyond) result in a contradictory
>range of clines going in opposite directions. I see no reason to
>bother with the disproven inventions of 19th-century
>pseudo-anthropology.
Hear, hear.
Öjevind
Jette Goldie
Boris Badenov
|Actually, the only place I have heard of her is on the computer. I really do
|not go in for modern music much. The last good song was written in 1982. <g>
The day the Beatles appeared is the day the music died.
the softrat
<gnu...@oink.co.uk> wrote:
>ZzinkMon, 21 Jan 2002 12:59:15 -0800, the softrat-ekki-ptang-baa-moooo:
>
>>Norwegians are so individualistic (read 'out-of-control') that there
>>is no 'Standard Norewegian'. Each village thinks that its dialect is
>>proper Norwegian. Not even the Danes would put up with this kind of
>>happy horseshit.
>
>lol! beloved ratticus, you crack me up. are your norwegian lessons really
>going that badly?
>
YES! I have absolutely no idea how to pronounce this babble and
apparently any method I choose would be wrong in 7/8ths of Norway!
e.g Norsk => /n-o-sh-k/ or /n-o-r-sh-k/ or /n-o-r-s-k/ where the 'o'
is pronounced sort of like but not identical to the 'o' in the British
'pot' which is not the same sound as the 'o' in the General American
'pot', but is more of a non-diphthongal yawn sound like 'bought' not
to be confused with 'å' which is a totally different almost identical
sound.. BTW, the 'r' is trilled, uvular, or retroflex depending on
which Norwegian you are talking to and whether they personally
pronounce the 'r' or not in this case. A 'trilled' 'r' sounds like a
demented Spaniard or Scotsman; a 'uvular' 'r sounds like a strangled
gargle in French; a 'retroflex' 'r' sounds like an epileptic Dane who
has swallowed his tongue and is trying vainly to breathe. None of
these sounds has any relationship to a General American 'r' which is
said to be distasteful to a Norwegian.
And the G/D book doesn't have a general vocabulary or a synopsis of
grammar!
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
We must learn to work as a team... like the lemmings.
the softrat
>Who is "white" and who is not?
*I'm* white! (The purple and brown spots are just age.)
I yusta be pink.
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Invalid thought detected. Close all mental processes and restart
body.
Smaug69
> Don Jow made dwagin-sized wripples Force:
> <shnip>
> > Considering that LOTR was meant to be an alternate story for the creation of
> > the world,
>
> Pssst! The War of the Ring happened long after Eru created
> the world!
Awww...you're in twuble now...Eru is going to give you such a
spankin'.
> > I think it could be possible that the Asian characteristic of the
> > eastern people came from the elves that did not cross over to Aman, and
> > didn't have inhibitions to breed with humans (the noldor only cross bred
> > twice).
>
> I can only think of one time. What's the other? Arwen?
Maybe he meant the Elves as a whole, instead of just the Noldor. What
I don't understand is the connection of the Elves to any human race.
If Tolkien's ME really was in our past none of the human races would
have come from Elves. It is more likely that the Asian races would be
descended from Men who did not come west from Hildorien.
> > Sounds plausible, but don't take my word for it, because I'm Asian :)
>
> How would being Asian invalidate your opinion, mewonders?
Mehungry. Mewantcookies!
Smaug69(Sorry, I was channeling Sesame Street)
Tamfiiris Gloruloke
>*I'm* white! (The purple and brown spots are just age.)
>
>I yusta be pink.
it's a good thing the fur grew back.
--
Tamf
I have seen the future and it is just like the present, only
longer. (Kehlog Albran, 'The Profit')
David Flood
>
> Michael O'Neill made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
> > SF wrote:
> > [racial features]
> >
> > Your predeliction for asian features on elves is understandable given
> > the fact that one cannot usually even see the cheekbones of fat white
> > Merkans; Elves are never described as having HUGE jowls IIRC.
>
> I thought SF was against caucasians without Asian features,
> not merely Americans. I'd say something nasty about the Irish,
> but I know there are many nice ones and I'm part Irish (wish I
> was more, though).
>
> <waves to David>
<waves back>
The genuinely nasty ones are on the Irish NG's, Ermanna; whatever you do,
*don't* go near soc.culture.irish or ni.politics! ;)
<snip>
> Michael, you and SF are to sit in the corner (unless, of course,
> I'm accidentally stepping into MOM's territory?).
Maybe you're TEUNC's new Step-MOM?
cheers,
Daithí
Jette Goldie
the softrat <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:mikr4uksa4e3r61kn...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:55:29 GMT, David Salo <ds...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >Who is "white" and who is not?
>
> *I'm* white! (The purple and brown spots are just age.)
>
> I yusta be pink.
I'm sort-of beigey pink. Even the bits of me that don't
see much sun are never *quite* white - more a sort
of cream.
Of course the bits of me that =do= see the sun tend
to be red, at least for a few days <g>
Celaeno
>ZzinkMon, 21 Jan 2002 12:59:15 -0800, the softrat-ekki-ptang-baa-moooo:
>
>>Norwegians are so individualistic (read 'out-of-control') that there
>>is no 'Standard Norewegian'. Each village thinks that its dialect is
>>proper Norwegian. Not even the Danes would put up with this kind of
>>happy horseshit.
That's half the fun!
>lol! beloved ratticus, you crack me up. are your norwegian lessons really
>going that badly?
I recall functioning as an interpretation service for my mother when
our car broke down waay up in the mountains.
>>"Hen er Norsk" or "Chickens are Norwegians."
>
>'hen' is actually the gender-neutral personal pronoun of certain feminist
>characters. are you talking about yourself again, theso?
Would that be hun/hu/ho/hon/etc. or henne/henna/hinna/na/hon/etc.?
'Chicken' is more like kitchen, at least around here.
Cel
Michelle
news:rode4ugpj4qf7ht87...@4ax.com:
> First off the casting of the movie sucked, so we wont go there.
> Most of caucasian race (in our world) does not have the gracefulness
> to be Elf. If you are going to make a movie about a fantasy book, you
> should find the closes possible "people" to represent the characters
> in the book.
>
> Clearly, the movie casted popular (and talented, except for Liv)
> actors instead of equally talented and more fitting unknowns (or
> lesser known actors).
>
> When I read the book, I've always pictured the Elves as having Asian
> features (that doesn't mean that they have to be Asian) and I've seen
> plenty of whites and blacks that have "asian" feature (the eyes, bone
> structure, delicate looking, high cheek bones, etc).
>
> Honestly, for the most part, English and American caucasians, are far
> too hairy, ugly, clumsy to play elves.
>
> Most caucasian I know (here in the states) would make good Dwarves,
> they are short, stocky, and hairy. Strangely, I've meet a few Swedish
> people who would make great elves, tall, thin, slightly slated eyes
> (sorry, is there a better way to say that? , that would be slanted
> eyes from my "western world" round eye point of view, again sorry).
>
> So to be an elf you don't have to be Chinese, but the average white
> (caucasian) person doesn't have a pray of pulling it off.
>
>
> And BTW, I'm a white American, but I call it like I see it, and I've
> noticed most other people DON'T. So don't let you naturally bias
> views change and alter reality, thanks.
>
>
> SF
Asian features? Maybe you should be more specific than that? Northern Asian
(Chinese, Korean) tend to have small, eyes, while if you go further south,
their eyes become distinctly 'cattish'. I'm of Vietnamese descent myself,
and I would say my eyes are Caucasian-looking with just a slightly slanted
look to it.
As for the face, there are plenty of Asians with rounded faces, and hardly
visible cheekbones...
--
Michelle <llya...@newmail.net>
Sydney, Australia
Elisha Harris
such are described to have 'Slanted eyes and sallow skin'.
Doesn't that indicate they were asian in appearance, according to our
current ideas of what an asian person looks like.
But I may be off the track here...
--->lisha
Öjevind Lång <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
news:8Id38.6036$O5.1...@nntpserver.swip.net...
Michelle Best
Westernized perception of their appearance is often wrong and short sighted.
Would it surprise you to know that not all Asian have slanted eyes or
shallow skin? It's just like not all black people have dark skin and not all
white people have blue eyes. I think it's time to re-evalute your opinion of
others and not draw drastic conclusions about their looks from what you see
on TV or in the movies.
"Elisha Harris" <l.i....@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:ICp38.77776$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Flame of the West
> Julia Roberts as Arwen? Now that would have been casting for the
There were very few things PJ could have done to keep me
from seeing the movies, but that would have done it.
--
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
Nick S
"Michelle Best" <chero...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:wKq38.6842$eL....@news1.bloor.is...
Tamfiiris Gloruloke
>I recall functioning as an interpretation service for my mother when
>our car broke down waay up in the mountains.
that's interesting. how did you learn how to speak Car?
>>'hen' is actually the gender-neutral personal pronoun of certain feminist
>Would that be hun/hu/ho/hon/etc. or henne/henna/hinna/na/hon/etc.?
a mixture between han and henne, i suppose.
>'Chicken' is more like kitchen, at least around here.
the chick's in the mail.
--
Tamf
Aragorn: "Are you hairy?"
Frodo (trembling): "Yes."
Aragorn: "Not hairy enough!" (Wayne Farmer)
Öjevind Lång
>I might be coming in too late here, but the evil creatures like the Orcs
and
>such are described to have 'Slanted eyes and sallow skin'.
>Doesn't that indicate they were asian in appearance, according to our
>current ideas of what an asian person looks like.
>But I may be off the track here...
I think you may be. Basically, Orcs are describes a rather like big apes,
with long arms and *fangs*. Not very Oriental, is it?
Öjevind
Antonio González
"Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message news:f2B38.6169>
> I think you may be. Basically, Orcs are describes a rather like big apes,
> with long arms and *fangs*. Not very Oriental, is it?
>
On the other hand, we have the Swarthy Men
"It is told that at this time the Swarthy Men came first into
Beleriand. [...] These Men were short and broad, long
and strong in the arm; their skins were swart or sallow, and their
hair was dark as were their eyes. [...]
The sons of Bór were Borlad, Borlach, and Borthand; and they followed
Maedhros and Maglor, and cheated the hope of Morgoth, and were
faithful. The sons of Ulfang the Black were Ulfast, and Ulwarth,
and Uldor the accursed; and they followed Caranthir and swore
allegiance to him, and proved faithless."
It is interesting that even when the sons of Bór kept their
oath, they were not considered Edain, and the idea that they
were inferior is a constant.
Antonio
the softrat
<ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>I think you may be. Basically, Orcs are describes a rather like big apes,
>with long arms and *fangs*. Not very Oriental, is it?
That's funny: I always visualize 'Banazir' that way.
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
If you insist on showing each other your naked feet, what do you
expect to happen???
Conrad Dunkerson
news:a2mphc$12eg73$1...@ID-39038.news.dfncis.de...
> It is interesting that even when the sons of Bór kept their
> oath, they were not considered Edain,
They were all slightly dead.
> and the idea that they were inferior is a constant.
Except for the fact that it was never mentioned even once.
Celaeno
<bb...@frostbite.falls.state.mn.us>:
*sigh* American Pie is stuck in my head now.
Cel
Celaeno
>On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:39:29 GMT, Tamfiiris Gloruloke
><gnu...@oink.co.uk> wrote:
>>lol! beloved ratticus, you crack me up. are your norwegian lessons really
>>going that badly?
>>
>YES! I have absolutely no idea how to pronounce this babble and
>apparently any method I choose would be wrong in 7/8ths of Norway!
There, there... *hands softrat a serina cookie*
Exactly _where_ are you trying to learn this, or learn this for?
You're not supposed to worry about the other 7/8ths...
>e.g Norsk => /n-o-sh-k/ or /n-o-r-sh-k/ or /n-o-r-s-k/
I'd ignore the unnecessary sh sounds to begin with. (It's one of the
features I hate the most about Eastern dialects, and the plain 's' is
the standard sound. You'll get away with using it in all areas.)
>where the 'o'
>is pronounced sort of like but not identical to the 'o' in the British
>'pot' which is not the same sound as the 'o' in the General American
>'pot', but is more of a non-diphthongal yawn sound like 'bought' not
>to be confused with 'å' which is a totally different almost identical
>sound..
For that sound, it's 'o' for short vowel, 'å' for long vowel.
>A 'trilled' 'r' sounds like a demented Spaniard or Scotsman;
Gee, thanks.
> None of these sounds has any relationship to a General American 'r' which is
>said to be distasteful to a Norwegian.
Distasteful is taking it a bit far, but it *does* make it easy to
identify Americans. Other English speaking immigrants can be taken on
their 'r's (or lack of 'r's) as well - an English speaker who moves
here and learns the language as an adult will generally have an
identifiable English/American accent the rest of their life.
>And the G/D book doesn't have a general vocabulary or a synopsis of
>grammar!
It *is* easier than English once you get the patterns and genders.
What you need to do is find an old lady that talks 'posh'; they're the
closest you'll get to a standard pronunciation. You could probably
also use something like the books kids use to learn grammar - the long
o/short o/å thing is covered in those, for instance
We moved from Australia to Norway when I was 5 years old, and while my
first grade class learned to read, I had special lessons in Norwegian
with a teacher who just happened to speak posh/standard Bokmål. I had
a reasonable grip of the language after one year, and started picking
up the dialect three or four years later. (I had one advantage in that
I already used the demented Scotsman 'r' when I spoke English
(courtesy of my Norwegian father). My English teacher forced me to
stop using it in English when I was 12 :) )
Cel
Laurie Forbes
"Celaeno" <cel...@shavenwookie.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3c4eec78...@news.world-online.no...
> *sigh* American Pie is stuck in my head now.
> Cel
Gross.
David Salo
Ermanna
David Flood made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:<shnip>
> > I'd say something nasty about the Irish,
> > but I know there are many nice ones and I'm part Irish (wish I
> > was more, though).
> >
> > <waves to David>
>
> <waves back>
>
> The genuinely nasty ones are on the Irish NG's, Ermanna; whatever you do,
> *don't* go near soc.culture.irish or ni.politics! ;)
Eeek! Don't worry, I won't. (I find flame-wars boring)
> <snip>
> > Michael, you and SF are to sit in the corner (unless, of course,
> > I'm accidentally stepping into MOM's territory?).
>
> Maybe you're TEUNC's new Step-MOM?
But I've never been to TEUNC!
> cheers,
> Daithí
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell,
Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School,
Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles
the softrat
(Celaeno) wrote:
>
>There, there... *hands softrat a serina cookie*
>
>Exactly _where_ are you trying to learn this, or learn this for?
>(courtesy of my Norwegian father). My English teacher forced me to
>stop using it in English when I was 12 :) )
>
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Give a man a match and he'll be warm for an hour... Set him on
fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Tamfiiris Gloruloke
>>I think you may be. Basically, Orcs are describes a rather like big apes,
>>with long arms and *fangs*. Not very Oriental, is it?
>
>That's funny: I always visualize 'Banazir' that way.
he's been corrupted by the fair words, but evil deeds of those that surround
him.
--
Tamf
Witch, n. (1) Any ugly and repulsive old woman, in a wicked
league with the devil. (2) A beautiful and attractive young
woman, in wickedness a league beyond the devil. (Ambrose Bierce,
Devil's Dictionary)
Tamfiiris Gloruloke
>> the chick's in the mail.
>
> In the mall, you mean.
collect the mall!
Antonio Gonzalez
"Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> escribió en el
mensaje news:JpH38.318246$WW.14...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> "Antonio González" <gon...@esi.us.es> wrote in message
> news:a2mphc$12eg73$1...@ID-39038.news.dfncis.de...
>
> > It is interesting that even when the sons of Bór kept their
> > oath, they were not considered Edain,
>
> They were all slightly dead.
>
Of course, Borlach & co. died in the battle, but I assume
that Tolkien speaks also about the armies they led (The sons
of Ulfang alone could not change the sign of the battle, I
suppose that they had some soldiers behind them).
> > and the idea that they were inferior is a constant.
>
> Except for the fact that it was never mentioned even once.
>
Perhaps not with that word, but it is implied. In Tolkien's
books the idea of "lesser races" is a constant. For instance,
in "The Window on the West", Faramir says:
"But the stewards were wiser and more fortunate. Wiser, for they
recruited the strength of our people from the sturdy folk of the
sea-coast, and from the hardy mountaineers of Ered Nimrais.
And they made a truce with the proud peoples of the North, who
often had assailed us, men of fierce valour, but our kin from afar
off, unlike the wild Easterlings or the cruel Haradrim.
[...]
And we love them [the Rohirrim]: tall men and fair women, valiant
both alike, golden-haired, bright-eyed, and strong; they remind us
of the youth of Men, as they were in the Elder Days. Indeed it is
said by our lore-masters that they have from of old this affinity
with us that they are come from those same Three Houses of Men as
were the Númenoreans in their beginning not from Hador the Goldenhaired,
the Elf-friend, maybe, yet from such of his sons and people as went
not over Sea into the West, refusing the call.
- For so we reckon Men in our lore, calling them the High, or Men of
the West, which were Númenoreans; and the Middle Peoples, Men of the
Twilight, such as are the Rohirrim and their kin that dwell still far
in the North; and the Wild, the Men of Darkness.
- Yet now, if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us,
enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them,
and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men,
of the Twilight, but with memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do,
we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport
and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more
skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we
steem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts.[...]"
Or, for instance, in "Minas Tirith", Gandalf speaks about Denethor
"He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his
descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs
nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did
not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive,
if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men,
even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him,
and dangerous to try."
Or, even when we see the Mouth of Sauron
"The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet
this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower
of Barad-dur he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he
himself had forgotten it, and he said: - I am the Mouth of Sauron.
- But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those
that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their
dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination,
and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he
entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and
because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and
he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he
was more cruel than any orc."
The idea is that the Edain (and later on the Numenoreans) even when
they are evil, are smarter, and wiser than other men. And that these
higher qualities (for good or evil) are somewhat hereditary
Antonio