Question on Toner Transfer PCB fabrication
Pratip Mukherjee
hard time removing the transfered toner from the PCB. In my first attempt I
made a mistake and tried to remove the ironed toner tracks from the PCB.
Judging from the amount of scrubbing I had to do, I cannot imagine the how the
tracks can survive when I'll try to remove the toner from the etched PCB. Am I
making some mistake here? Is there any easily available chemical to disolve
the plastic toner from the PCB?
David Shalita
>
> When using toner transfer (using plain paper and laser printer), I am having
> hard time removing the transfered toner from the PCB.
I use acetone, bought locally at Home Depot.
Wet copper and toner with soft paper towel saturated with
acetone. Let acetone stay in contact with toner for a minute to
allow softening. Then wipe away toner with soft paper towel.
May require a couple of applications of acetone for
stubborn toner spots.
I am making a trial pcboard right now
using Blue PnP Toner transfer film. Not having Great success,
significant rework is required prior to etch,
but pcboard looks usable.
Hope this helps. Good Luck.
--
David Shalita (Dave)
af...@lafn.org
Van Nuys, CA
Sean
>Pratip Mukherjee wrote:
>>
>> When using toner transfer (using plain paper and laser printer), I am having
>> hard time removing the transfered toner from the PCB.
>
> I use acetone, bought locally at Home Depot.
> Wet copper and toner with soft paper towel saturated with
> acetone. Let acetone stay in contact with toner for a minute to
> allow softening. Then wipe away toner with soft paper towel.
> May require a couple of applications of acetone for
> stubborn toner spots.
>
> I am making a trial pcboard right now
> using Blue PnP Toner transfer film. Not having Great success,
> significant rework is required prior to etch,
> but pcboard looks usable.
>
This is interesting.
I usually use nail polish remover, I didn't realize that Home Depot sold
acetone. What is acetone "normally" used for? I.E. what section would
I look in @ Home Depot? Thanks.
Also, I wish both of you the best of luck with the toner transfer process.
But let me just say this, I think once you try the photo method, you will
*never* go back. It really is *not* difficult, messy or expensive. I think
you probably spend more money and time goofing around with messed up toner
transfers.
The resolution of the actual photo process seems to be limited only by the
resolution of your exposure films (your laser printer). To get even better
resolution I had printouts made at a local graphics shop @ 1600 DPI. The
resolution was incredible. I recently did 10 mil lines with no problem.
The *real* limiting factor and messy part is the etching, something which is a
problem in both the photo and transfer processes.
I use all of the G.C. Electronics products. You can call and get a catalog
from G.C., then use those part numbers to order through a distributor
like Newark. I buy the positive, pre-sensitized boards. Forget about the
spray on photo sensitizer!
Again, I wish you the best of luck with the toner transfer, but I've had such
success with the photo process that I find myself evangelizing about it.
-Sean
-Sean W
www.concentric.net/~scwallac
Roland Schaer
>I usually use nail polish remover, I didn't realize that Home Depot sold
>acetone. What is acetone "normally" used for? I.E. what section would
>I look in @ Home Depot? Thanks.
Acetone is a solvent used throughout various industries including the
fiberglass industry. It is used to clean up tools coated with various
resins. It is relatively easy to get and is not expensive. It's major
property (compared to other solvents like Kerosene and Carburator
cleaner) is that it will disolve most plastics or plastic based
compounds. I believe nail polish remover is acetone that sold in
smaller quantities at higher prices (and maybe scented for the
ladies).
I don't know what section it is in at Home Depot, but one of the store
clerks should know. Start in the paint section. Or, better yet, visit
your local hardware store and get it there. You may pay $1.00 more for
a gallon, but you'll get better service.
>I use all of the G.C. Electronics products. You can call and get a catalog
>from G.C., then use those part numbers to order through a distributor
>like Newark. I buy the positive, pre-sensitized boards. Forget about the
>spray on photo sensitizer!
>
Do either of these sources above have web pages? Are there any good
web resources for photo-etching PC Boards?
RTS
David Shalita
> > I use acetone, bought locally at Home Depot.
> >
> >
> This is interesting.
>
> I usually use nail polish remover, I didn't realize that Home Depot sold
> acetone. What is acetone "normally" used for? I.E. what section would
> I look in @ Home Depot? Thanks.
I found Acetone at Home Depot in same department selling pint
cans of Alchol, Paint Thinner, and other liquid chemicals.
I use Acetone for cleaning, degreasing, toner removal
from unetched Copper PCBoard blanks. Also use Acetone
as a general degreaser prior to gluing or painting.
Nail Polish Remover can contain Acetone and other
substances for enriching nails such as glycerine,
making it not suitable as a degreaser.
> Also, I wish both of you the best of luck with the toner transfer process.
If I used this method, it would need to be done only in my
light leaky garage shop, with double door closed.
Is this possible?
I am willing to take another look at method.
> I think
> you probably spend more money and time goofing around with messed up toner
> transfers.
EXACTLY CORRECT........every board needs MASSIVE rework due to lost
toner.
> I recently did 10 mil lines with no problem.
>
Thanks for info, any pointers regarding doing
photo work in light leaky shop are welcomed.
Mark Borgerson
Sean wrote:
<<SNIP>>
>
> This is interesting.
>
> I usually use nail polish remover, I didn't realize that Home Depot sold
> acetone. What is acetone "normally" used for? I.E. what section would
> I look in @ Home Depot? Thanks.
>
Look for Acetone in the paint section. It is used to clean up after epoxy,
polyurethane varnish, fiberglass resin, etc.
Nail polish remover is a scented mixture of actone, water, and 'moisturizers'
(whatever they are).
<<SNIP>>
> -Sean
>
> -Sean W
> www.concentric.net/~scwallac
Sean
> I found Acetone at Home Depot in same department selling pint
> cans of Alchol, Paint Thinner, and other liquid chemicals.
>
> I use Acetone for cleaning, degreasing, toner removal
> from unetched Copper PCBoard blanks. Also use Acetone
> as a general degreaser prior to gluing or painting.
>
>
> Nail Polish Remover can contain Acetone and other
> substances for enriching nails such as glycerine,
> making it not suitable as a degreaser.
>
Thanks to everyone who responded with info!
>> Also, I wish both of you the best of luck with the toner transfer process.
>
> If I used this method, it would need to be done only in my
> light leaky garage shop, with double door closed.
> Is this possible?
>
> I am willing to take another look at method.
I think the whole "darkroom" concept is really over-exaggerated. I do not do
anything special. I have a small apartment, and the only place I can really
do this process has a large sliding glass door with a sort-of see through
curtain.
So, basically I do the exposure in the evening, when there is no sunlight
coming in. The street-lamps, etc. outside are inconsequential. Don't worry
at all about them. Then I just have a dimmable halogen lamp in my apartment
that I dim down just far enough so that I can still see. I don't use those
special yellow lights or anything. There is no need for any of that stuff.
Keep in mind that the only time you really need to worry about the light is
when you first line up the films over the board - about 2-3 minutes. Then,
again, when you are developing - another 2-3 minutes. So it is not like the
room needs to be dark for a full hour or anything.
Also keep in mind that the PCB usually gets "exposed" for about 20-30 minutes
under the UV light. So 2-3 minutes of very low exposure to light is
inconsequential.
I do not think you would have any problem doing it in your garage - especially
in the evening.
>
>> I think
>> you probably spend more money and time goofing around with messed up toner
>> transfers.
>
> EXACTLY CORRECT........every board needs MASSIVE rework due to lost
>toner.
>
If you look at my page:
www.concentric.net/~scwallac/design.html
you will see PDF's of the boards I recently did. Even with this level of
complexity, I only had to do two touch up points. And one of the points was
because I chipped a piece of the resist on the board accidentally.
>> I recently did 10 mil lines with no problem.
>>
> Thanks for info, any pointers regarding doing
> photo work in light leaky shop are welcomed.
I have found that many of the web sites that sell the toner transfer stuff
tend to greatly exaggerate the equipment needed for the photo process.
After all, they want you to buy their product!
I am looking for new stuff to put on my web page. So if anyone would like
some details on how I do the photo process, let me know, and if there is
sufficient interest I can put the whole procedure on my web site over the next
few weeks.
-Sean
-Sean W
www.concentric.net/~scwallac
Sean
>Acetone is a solvent used throughout various industries including the
>fiberglass industry. It is used to clean up tools coated with various
>resins. It is relatively easy to get and is not expensive. It's major
>property (compared to other solvents like Kerosene and Carburator
>cleaner) is that it will disolve most plastics or plastic based
>compounds. I believe nail polish remover is acetone that sold in
>smaller quantities at higher prices (and maybe scented for the
>ladies).
Thanks for the info!
>
>>I use all of the G.C. Electronics products. You can call and get a catalog
>>from G.C., then use those part numbers to order through a distributor
>>like Newark. I buy the positive, pre-sensitized boards. Forget about the
>>spray on photo sensitizer!
>>
>
>Do either of these sources above have web pages? Are there any good
>web resources for photo-etching PC Boards?
>
G.C., amazingly, does not have a web page.
But, in the US you can call and get a catalog:
1-800-435-2931
Outside of the US, you might have to use the non-toll-free number:
They manufacture *everything* you need for the photo process.
To get their stuff, you need to go through a distributor. So just grab the
appropriate part number from the G.C. catalog and order it through a
distributor like Newark:
-Sean W
www.concentric.net/~scwallac
Sean
Oh yeah, here are some more resources:
Photo process PCBs/supplies. I have never used their products personally.
www.injectorall.com
Photo process PCBs/supplies. I have never used their products, either.
www.kepro.com
General PCB interest page
www.pcbfab.com
The only products I can endorse from personal experience are the G.C. line of
supplies mentioned in the previous post. (I'm not affiliated with them, just
a satisfied user) Sorry, they don't have a web page. See previous post.
Here is some info about a UV light source in the form of a fluorescent tube:
www.lighting.philips.com/nam/prodinfo/fluorescent/p5266.shtml
With this part number, you can just go to your local industrial
electric supply store and get this bulb probably alot cheaper than you
would from a specialized "PCB" dealer. A local place in Syracuse has
them for only like $8.00 or something. Then you just go to the local
home improvement wharehouse and pick up a standard fluorescent bulb
fixture.
-Sean
-Sean W
www.concentric.net/~scwallac
Sean
>Epson stylus 400 (720dpi) inkjet printer. With this, I just print
>out at 1:1 scaling onto the film.
>
Have you found that the inkjet prints out the dimensions *exactly*?
In other words, if you make a board that is 5"x6", does the printout come to
exactly 5"x6"?? I have found that slightly incorrect scaling is a problem for
double sided boards. Laser printers are always slightly off in one direction.
Usually a 5"x6" board might come out as 5.125"x6". But it is not consistent,
so top to bottom registration is a problem.
>
>Let the ink dry for 3mins or more, remove film from paper, then use
>in lightbox. The exposures I typically do are 1-2mins (a negative
>film pcb).
Your exposure time is 1-2 mins?!
How much distance between the light and the board?
Is this an industrial quality lightbox or homemade?? My exposure time
using a UV fluorescent is closer to 20 mins.
>
>All that remains is to get a cheap machine for doing drilling, and
>an easy way of doing small plated-thru vias. I have found a method
>of easily doing larger vias with wire segments, which I use on
>double-sided pcbs.
>
Mouser sells some fairly small eyelets. I have tried these, but in my
opinion, they are not sufficiently small. I have also used the "wire soldered
top and bottom" trick that you mention. If you use the clipped off leads from
resistors, you can make the pads relatively small (65 mil)
I think the *real* problem for these type of double sided boards is that you
can't plate through holes for IC's. If you want to get from bottom to top you
*have* to use a via. This is a major problem, esp. if you use an autorouter
during PCB design.
-Sean
-Sean W
www.concentric.net/~scwallac
Sean
Thanks for sharing your techniques.
Your method for vias sounds like it probably looks a little neater than my
previous method.
>> >
>> >All that remains is to get a cheap machine for doing drilling, and
>> >an easy way of doing small plated-thru vias. I have found a method
>> >of easily doing larger vias with wire segments, which I use on
>> >double-sided pcbs.
I'm not sure what you mean by cheap, but there is a pretty cool machine at:
It is US $780. Maybe that is not hobbyist price range, but if you are a
professional, I think US $780 is pretty cheap for what it does.
I wonder how well it works for this price.
If anyone out there can do plated through holes "in your kitchen", boy we'd
love to hear from you!!
-Sean
-Sean W
www.concentric.net/~scwallac
Russell Shaw
applying even pressure over the TTS (toner transfer system) paper and
pcb.
I still got problems of tracks not transfering. Also, if slightly too
much pressure is used in one area, then the toner "flattens" and so
tracks spread in width. I have tried various combinations of heat and
pressure. I also cleaned and degreased the copper before using.
One thing I found to improve the adherence and resolution of the toner
onto the TTS paper, first roughen the TTS paper surface with dry, clean
steel wool (don't wear through the coating tho).
Overall, I think the toner system depends alot on the printer and toner,
and is too unreliable and variable.
I have since gone to making pcbs using the photographic method, and can
now make pcbs with 8mil tracks and 8mil spacing using my own cheap and
very commonly available printer.
Pratip Mukherjee wrote:
>
> When using toner transfer (using plain paper and laser printer), I am having
> hard time removing the transfered toner from the PCB. In my first attempt I
> made a mistake and tried to remove the ironed toner tracks from the PCB.
> Judging from the amount of scrubbing I had to do, I cannot imagine the how the
> tracks can survive when I'll try to remove the toner from the etched PCB. Am I
> making some mistake here? Is there any easily available chemical to disolve
> the plastic toner from the PCB?
--
Regards,
Russell
MARTIN COMMUNICATIONS Pty. Ltd
87 Peters Ave. Mulgrave Vic. 3170
Ph. +61 3 9560 9999 Fx. +61 3 9560 9055
http://www.martin.com.au
"Faders and Receivers for New Horizons"
__ __ __ __ __ __
/ \ \ / \ \ / // / MARTIN COMMUNICATIONS
/ /\ \\ / /\ \\ / // / Russell Shaw, B.Eng, M.Eng(Research), MIREE
/ // \ \/ // \ \/ // / Electronic RnD Engineer
/_//_/ \__/__/ \__/__/ EMAIL: rus...@martin.com.au
Russell Shaw
Epson stylus 400 (720dpi) inkjet printer. With this, I just print
out at 1:1 scaling onto the film.
The secret is that Epson makes an excellent inkjet film (I'm no
rep. for them). The genuine inket transparency film has an emulsion
on the printed side which absorbs the ammonia ink. The stuff isn't
cheap (AUS$3 per sheet or $100 for a bag of 30), but there is a way
to make it last ages.
Print your board onto some scrap paper (in economy mode to save ink).
Now cut out some transparency slightly larger and stick it over the
printing on the paper. Now feed the paper into the printer and print
the board the same way as before except in 720dpi mode.
Let the ink dry for 3mins or more, remove film from paper, then use
in lightbox. The exposures I typically do are 1-2mins (a negative
film pcb).
The prints you get on this transparency are perfect. It is difficult
to see *any* jaggered edges, and the solidness of the black is
*complete*, no pinholing effects as in laser toner.
Generic brand transparency relies on surface roughness, and is
definitely no good (the ink takes longer to dry, and black areas
form pinholes that let light through).
I have looked at other inkjet printers such as Cannons and HPs, but
Epson seems to have the best technology and sharpness.
With the quality of these printouts, I consider the problem of a
hobbiest getting adequate resolution is solved.
All that remains is to get a cheap machine for doing drilling, and
an easy way of doing small plated-thru vias. I have found a method
of easily doing larger vias with wire segments, which I use on
double-sided pcbs.
Sean wrote:
>
> In article <37189A4C...@lafn.org>, David Shalita <af...@lafn.org> wrote:
> >Pratip Mukherjee wrote:
> >>
> >> When using toner transfer (using plain paper and laser printer), I am having
> >> hard time removing the transfered toner from the PCB.
> >
> > I use acetone, bought locally at Home Depot.
> > Wet copper and toner with soft paper towel saturated with
> > acetone. Let acetone stay in contact with toner for a minute to
> > allow softening. Then wipe away toner with soft paper towel.
> > May require a couple of applications of acetone for
> > stubborn toner spots.
> >
> > I am making a trial pcboard right now
> > using Blue PnP Toner transfer film. Not having Great success,
> > significant rework is required prior to etch,
> > but pcboard looks usable.
> >
>
> This is interesting.
>
> I usually use nail polish remover, I didn't realize that Home Depot sold
> acetone. What is acetone "normally" used for? I.E. what section would
> I look in @ Home Depot? Thanks.
>
> Also, I wish both of you the best of luck with the toner transfer process.
> But let me just say this, I think once you try the photo method, you will
> *never* go back. It really is *not* difficult, messy or expensive. I think
> you probably spend more money and time goofing around with messed up toner
> transfers.
>
> The resolution of the actual photo process seems to be limited only by the
> resolution of your exposure films (your laser printer). To get even better
> resolution I had printouts made at a local graphics shop @ 1600 DPI. The
> resolution was incredible. I recently did 10 mil lines with no problem.
>
> The *real* limiting factor and messy part is the etching, something which is a
> problem in both the photo and transfer processes.
>
> I use all of the G.C. Electronics products. You can call and get a catalog
> from G.C., then use those part numbers to order through a distributor
> like Newark. I buy the positive, pre-sensitized boards. Forget about the
> spray on photo sensitizer!
>
> Again, I wish you the best of luck with the toner transfer, but I've had such
> success with the photo process that I find myself evangelizing about it.
>
> -Sean
>
> -Sean W
> www.concentric.net/~scwallac
--
Russell Shaw
Even for 6" pcbs I have no problems.
I do negative boards mainly, and use Protel. Trouble is Protel can't
do negative printouts. What I do is generate a Gerber file from Protel,
then read in the file with an excellent and totally freeware Gerber
editor from Lavenir (ViewMate 5):
Then I print the negative image on the Epson inkjet. The print
dialogue has a scaling option to correct for any errors if
needed (which I haven't needed yet).
If you generate a Gerber file with front and back layers, then
you can move and position these in ViewMate before printing.
For the top layer, use the mirrored option in Protel so the ink side
ends up against the copper.
I use a small shoebox size lightbox made by Kalex and it has 4 flouros
about 2" from the glass. I have used 2-flouro boxes from Radio Spares
that have less spacing and a silvery reflector. Both work perfectly.
With such solid black printouts, the exposure can be 1-15mins without
much change in quality. I have also used positive pcb and spray-on
stuff with 10min exposures, they were also excellent.
To do vias, use 2mm pads on front and back. Drill the hole with 0.8mm
drill. Solder a "blob" on one side of the hole. Get some 0.8mm bare,
tinned copper wire. Cut the end off using the *flat* side with some
small *flat side type* sidecutters. This makes the end of the wire
flat instead of angular. Insert the wire into the hole so its hits
the solder blob. Cut the wire with the flat side of the sidecutters
so it is flush with the surface. Now put a solder blob on top, also
heating the wire with the iron. You can feel it "sink in" slightly.
The wire ends up wetted on soldered on both ends.
Usually, I put blobs on all the vias on one side of the pcb, then
do all the wire vias, then do the rest of the blobs. It is quick and
easy and cheap to do. I have made many RF and micro-controller SMD
pcbs like this.
Sean wrote:
>
> >The way I make pcbs with 10mil tracks and spacing is to use an
> >Epson stylus 400 (720dpi) inkjet printer. With this, I just print
> >out at 1:1 scaling onto the film.
> >
>
> Have you found that the inkjet prints out the dimensions *exactly*?
> In other words, if you make a board that is 5"x6", does the printout come to
> exactly 5"x6"?? I have found that slightly incorrect scaling is a problem for
> double sided boards. Laser printers are always slightly off in one direction.
> Usually a 5"x6" board might come out as 5.125"x6". But it is not consistent,
> so top to bottom registration is a problem.
>
> >
> >Let the ink dry for 3mins or more, remove film from paper, then use
> >in lightbox. The exposures I typically do are 1-2mins (a negative
> >film pcb).
>
> Your exposure time is 1-2 mins?!
> How much distance between the light and the board?
> Is this an industrial quality lightbox or homemade?? My exposure time
> using a UV fluorescent is closer to 20 mins.
>
> >
> >All that remains is to get a cheap machine for doing drilling, and
> >an easy way of doing small plated-thru vias. I have found a method
> >of easily doing larger vias with wire segments, which I use on
> >double-sided pcbs.
> >
>
> Mouser sells some fairly small eyelets. I have tried these, but in my
> opinion, they are not sufficiently small. I have also used the "wire soldered
> top and bottom" trick that you mention. If you use the clipped off leads from
> resistors, you can make the pads relatively small (65 mil)
>
> I think the *real* problem for these type of double sided boards is that you
> can't plate through holes for IC's. If you want to get from bottom to top you
> *have* to use a via. This is a major problem, esp. if you use an autorouter
> during PCB design.
>
David Shalita
> I am looking for new stuff to put on my web page. So if anyone would like
> some details on how I do the photo process, let me know, and if there is
> sufficient interest I can put the whole procedure on my web site over the next
> few weeks.
Please do provide details, I need your info.
Please put on your web site. I certainly am interested.
Glad to hear I can do the photo work in my garage -shop.
SO very helpful.
Regards,
Jon Elson
Sean wrote:
> Have you found that the inkjet prints out the dimensions *exactly*?
> In other words, if you make a board that is 5"x6", does the printout come to
> exactly 5"x6"?? I have found that slightly incorrect scaling is a problem for
> double sided boards. Laser printers are always slightly off in one direction.
> Usually a 5"x6" board might come out as 5.125"x6". But it is not consistent,
> so top to bottom registration is a problem.
I do a lot of prototype double-sided boards. I never got a laser printer
output that would align within the size of the pads if the board was over
2" on a side! You could even do the same print twice, and there was some
variation. The two different sides would be really out of alignment.
I built a laser photoplotter with 1000 DPI resolution, but that was a several
year project.
> >
> >Let the ink dry for 3mins or more, remove film from paper, then use
> >in lightbox. The exposures I typically do are 1-2mins (a negative
> >film pcb).
>
> Your exposure time is 1-2 mins?!
> How much distance between the light and the board?
> Is this an industrial quality lightbox or homemade?? My exposure time
> using a UV fluorescent is closer to 20 mins.
I use DuPont Riston dry film resist, which is the only way to go (although
it is expensive stuff). I have gotten exposures down to about 10 minutes.
>
> >All that remains is to get a cheap machine for doing drilling, and
> >an easy way of doing small plated-thru vias. I have found a method
> >of easily doing larger vias with wire segments, which I use on
> >double-sided pcbs.
> >
>
> Mouser sells some fairly small eyelets. I have tried these, but in my
> opinion, they are not sufficiently small. I have also used the "wire soldered
> top and bottom" trick that you mention. If you use the clipped off leads from
> resistors, you can make the pads relatively small (65 mil)
>
> I think the *real* problem for these type of double sided boards is that you
> can't plate through holes for IC's. If you want to get from bottom to top you
> *have* to use a via. This is a major problem, esp. if you use an autorouter
> during PCB design.
What I do is buy strips of socket pins. You stick them into the board just far
enough to solder the solder side, then solder all the pins that need connection
to the component side. Then, plug the ICs into the socket contacts. I use
40 mil via pads with a 20 mil hole for the simple vias. I stick wire wrap
wire in the hole and solder.
Jon
Greg Holdren
: I think the *real* problem for these type of double sided boards is that you
: *have* to use a via. This is a major problem, esp. if you use an autorouter
: during PCB design.
Not true, I use IC pins all the time as vias! You have to use the
machine style of sockets however. These have a small barrel of
metal on the top side which rest on the pad. This makes it
a piece of cake to solder on the top side. Look at one and
youll see.
I have done 68 pin PLCC sockets also. both sides! This more tricky
to do because of the double row of pins on all 4 sides. You have to lift
up the socket and not allow it to rest flush to the board. Use of
real fine tipped (long) iron to get to the back row of pins help.
--
Greg Holdren
gr...@wx.rose.hp.com
Bill Jenkins
#CPN. Thin tracks, .03" are no problem, any track wider than .05" can have the
ink smeared between the edges of the track because of the head/film clearance.
This can be over come by letting the artwork dry, and use of a uv filter pen on
the non-ink side, to fill in any missing areas.
I use positive photo resist and have even made pcb with the print on normal
paper. Takes a little longer exposure.. If you use new uv fluorescent tubes the
exposure is 3 - 5 minutes. I use F15T8BL lamps, they are 15" long. I put them
in a 6" high box with 6mm plate glass, non-lead, on top. The tubes sit on their
sockets and are about 3" or so from the glass. Normal exposure is 3 minutes,
longer if you have a thicker coat of resist.
"Plated-through" holes can be made by threading a thin piece of wire through
the vias. After you have done all, or enough, solder all wire/vias on one side,
then flip the pcb over, use a exacto knife.. the one that looks like a pen, and
cut the wire about .125" away from the via, bent it along the trace and solder,
flip over and cut the wire on the other side. Quicker than doing each hole...
I have not noticed any axis stretching with this HP680C printer. Have done 10
mil tracks..no problem.
I used to use spray positive resist, but it's not available now. Had super
results with it...The liquid I now use is thinned 2X with thinner and can be
thinned 1X more for a quick dry- thin coat..
I use EZRoute software which makes positive and negative artwork..
Hope this helps someone
Bill Jenkins
In article <371AC7E6...@martin.com.au>, rus...@martin.com.au says...
>> Have you found that the inkjet prints out the dimensions *exactly*?
>> In other words, if you make a board that is 5"x6", does the printout come to
>> exactly 5"x6"?? I have found that slightly incorrect scaling is a problem
for
>> double sided boards. Laser printers are always slightly off in one
direction.
>> Usually a 5"x6" board might come out as 5.125"x6". But it is not
consistent,
>> so top to bottom registration is a problem.
>>
>> >
>> >Let the ink dry for 3mins or more, remove film from paper, then use
>> >in lightbox. The exposures I typically do are 1-2mins (a negative
>> >film pcb).
>>
>> Your exposure time is 1-2 mins?!
>> How much distance between the light and the board?
>> Is this an industrial quality lightbox or homemade?? My exposure time
>> using a UV fluorescent is closer to 20 mins.
>>
>> >
>> >All that remains is to get a cheap machine for doing drilling, and
>> >an easy way of doing small plated-thru vias. I have found a method
>> >of easily doing larger vias with wire segments, which I use on
>> >double-sided pcbs.
>> >
>>
>> Mouser sells some fairly small eyelets. I have tried these, but in my
>> opinion, they are not sufficiently small. I have also used the "wire
soldered
>> top and bottom" trick that you mention. If you use the clipped off leads
from
>> resistors, you can make the pads relatively small (65 mil)
>>
>> I think the *real* problem for these type of double sided boards is that you
>> can't plate through holes for IC's. If you want to get from bottom to top
you
>> *have* to use a via. This is a major problem, esp. if you use an autorouter
>> during PCB design.
>>
Sean W
Thanks for your info.
>
>exposure is 3 - 5 minutes. I use F15T8BL lamps, they are 15" long. I put them
>
>in a 6" high box with 6mm plate glass, non-lead, on top. The tubes sit on their
>
>sockets and are about 3" or so from the glass. Normal exposure is 3 minutes,
How many tubes?
-Sean W
www.concentric.net/~scwallac
Jeff Barlow
Jon Elson <jme...@artsci.wustl.edu> wrote in message
news:371BADDB...@artsci.wustl.edu...
<snip>
> I use DuPont Riston dry film resist, which is the only way to go (although
> it is expensive stuff). I have gotten exposures down to about 10 minutes.
>
Where do get the DuPont Riston dry film resist? Is it the stuff that can
also be used for solder mask?
Bill Jenkins
exposure of a 12" x 12" pcb. Main uv output is from the middle of the tube,
less at ends.
Bill
In article <7fijtr$b...@journal.concentric.net>, nos...@concentric.net says...
ovid...@hotmail.com
cheaper way where you get two for the price of one in comparison to
the price of TTS paper. All the info is posted free on my website
http://www.escape.com/~ovidio. Comments, critics, and flamers all
welcome to reply.
best regards,
ovidio
On Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:38:53 GMT, pra...@yahoo.com (Pratip Mukherjee)
wrote:
>When using toner transfer (using plain paper and laser printer), I am having
Pratip Mukherjee
think I'll try the photographic way. Cost of the pre-sensitized PCBs are much
higher than the oridinary ones, though.
What is a good source for a small UV lamp? Couldn't locate them at Home Depot.
Pratip Mukherjee (pra...@hotmail.com)
In article <GCWS2.3545$JM2.2...@newsgate.direct.ca>, bjen...@direct.ca
wrote:
Sean W
>Sean <nos...@concentric.net> wrote:
>: I think the *real* problem for these type of double sided boards is that you
> you
>: *have* to use a via. This is a major problem, esp. if you use an autorouter
>: during PCB design.
>
>
>machine style of sockets however. These have a small barrel of
>metal on the top side which rest on the pad. This makes it
>a piece of cake to solder on the top side. Look at one and
>youll see.
>
I thought of this, but never found any sockets that rested far enough off
of the board. If you could provide a manufacturer part # (or even a
DigiKey part #) - I'd appreciate it!
-Sean
Sean W
>After a very disappointing result with Plain Paper Toner Transfer method, I
>think I'll try the photographic way. Cost of the pre-sensitized PCBs are much
>higher than the oridinary ones, though.
>What is a good source for a small UV lamp? Couldn't locate them at Home Depot.
>
>Pratip Mukherjee (pra...@hotmail.com)
>
Try your local electric supply house (where the professional electricians
and contractors go). I found that our local supply house had them in
stock. Of course, you'll need a bulb number, the Philips tube is F15T8BL.
If they don't have them in stock, they can definitely order them.
-Sean
David Krofchok
> and contractors go). I found that our local supply house had them in
> stock. Of course, you'll need a bulb number, the Philips tube is F15T8BL.
>
> If they don't have them in stock, they can definitely order them.
>
> -Sean
I've been following this discussion on prototype PCB production, and find
your efforts quite interesting. I usually don't suggest the method I use
because many people think that it's too much trouble. However, the more I
see problems people have making PCBs, the more I think the method I use is
well worth the initial effort and setup. I don't run into ANY proplems
anymore and have been doing this for 10 ish years now.
Reconsider screen printing etch-resist ink onto a copper-clad board.
There are some fairly impressive benifits from adding screen-printing to
your list of abilities:
~ You can make MANY multiple boards if you want ( I always make at least
4 )
~ You can put a solder mask on the board
~ You can put the "silk-screen" (white part numbers) layer onto the
board'
~ You can screen-print your own CD-Rs when you get good
~ Water is the developer chemical needed to develop the stencil on the
screen
~ You will spend NO time doing touch-up on the boards
~ If you botch a board, you can easily reclaim the board with ink
solvent
~ The initial $100 - $250 you invest to get started is WELL worth the
effort
If you would like the details, let me know, and I'll put together a resource
list, and production details.
By the way, as far as UV exposure sources, I use a 400W Metal Halide Parking
Lot fixture. It gives me the best exposure yet.
I got it at Grainger ( national industrial/commercial supply company ).
They do make smaller ones. At Home Depot you could get a smaller Mercury
Vapor Arc lamp for $40-$70. ( NOT the sodium vapor (orange) light)
-- Dave
-- krof...@mediaone.net
Madison Heights, MI
Sean W
Does this require "special" ink that is resistant to FeCl?
>
>There are some fairly impressive benifits from adding screen-printing to
>your list of abilities:
>
> ~ You can make MANY multiple boards if you want ( I always make at least
>4 )
> ~ You can put a solder mask on the board
I think the solder mask will be even more important as surface mount
continues to grow and thru-hole stuff harder to find. So I would love to
hear about how to do a solder mask and what type of "ink" is used for
this.
Heck, I'd just like to know how to make a nice silkscreen of my logo for
chassis panels!
>If you would like the details, let me know, and I'll put together a resource
>list, and production details.
>
I'll put in my vote for that!
-Sean
Sean W
OK, let's make this thread even *longer* ;)
Has anyone found a chemical that they feel is superior to FeCl for
etching?
Also, what have you found is the optimum temperature for the FeCl?
Personally, my thermometer only goes up to 100 F (it's just an aquarium
thermometer), but I think my FeCl is probably at about 110 F. I'm just
curious what the general consensus is.
I think etching is the real limiting factor in all of the processes
discussed.
-Sean
ovidio
comparison to the price of TTS paper. All the info is posted free on
companies mentioned on the website. Comments, critics, and flamers
John Bald
John Bald
Pratip Mukherjee <pra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7xaT2.16274$tY1....@wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net...
Russell Shaw
etching at room temperature in a bubble etcher. I also make PCBs at
work, where we use heated ammonium persulphate at 50degC without any
problem. What problems do you have?
--
Leland C. Scott
A friend of mine uses an old flat bed Roland XY plotter to do his artwork.
The method he uses requires plotting the artwork directly on to a plain
uncoated copper clad PCB. The ink pen he uses is one of those fiber tipped
ones used to plot on to overhead transparency films. The ink in these pens
is oil based and seems to work very well with Ferric Chloride. The PCB must
be very clean, dry and grease (finger print) free for good results. The
results he got was very good, however he was limited to a trace width of
about 0.3 mm minimum which is the size of the felt tip on the pen. When the
tip starts to wear out, just throw the pen away. I remember a small bag of
them were relatively cheap.
I recall reading about a company, can't remember the name, a few years back
that sold a "special" ink for use in liquid ink plotter pens that works with
Ferric Chloride just fine. The plotter pens had to be the Tungsten Carbide
tipped type to keep the pen from wearing out.
The PCB board he uses is the normal 0.06 inch thick, but some plotters can't
lift the pen high enough to clear the board when required during the
plotting process. In this case he uses the 0.03 inch thick PCB material. If
you use the 0.03 inch material then you can plot each side of the board
separately. Then line up the holes and glue the two sides together for a
double sided board.
The software he used until he got a regular PCB layout software package was
Autocad. I have used Autocad to layout simple PCB's and plotted them to
scale correctly. With Autocad, the software lets you "calibrate" your output
device so the scale problem is done away with.
Leland C. Scott
Bill Jenkins
FeCl should not be heated over 110F... the fumes given off will rust any metal
object in your shop. As well as probably rust your lungs out..
FeCl saturates at 14oz copper/gal and oxidizes the copper off the board. If the
etching time gets too long, try adding a quantity of warm water. This will
dilute the etchant, but aids in washing the spent etchant off the copper
surface, allowing oxidation to take place easier.
Spray etchers work very well in this process. For those who only have a tray or
small bubbler tank try using a small air bubbler tube sold by the aquarium
shops. This tube looks like a soaker hose for the garden.. Cut a piece of pcb
to fit the bottom of your tray, or tank, draw a spiral on it, drill holes and
tie the tubing to the pcb. I used plastic coated wire.. lasts quite a while.
With the small air pump you should see a large mass of foam bubbles, put the
pcb to be etched copper side down, and watch the copper dissapear through the
laminate... This process will also produce lots of vapours if the FeCl is too
hot.
Am Persulphate saturates at 5oz copper/gal and if heated will produce a bleach
smell and leave white crystals over the etcher.
FeCl will stain your clothes, Am Pers will bleach holes in them..
Hope this helps
Bill Jenkins
In article <7fla53$f...@chronicle.concentric.net>, nos...@concentric.net says...
Tony Williams
Sean W <nos...@concentric.net> wrote:
> Has anyone found a chemical that they feel is superior to FeCl for
> etching?
You can pep it up with about 10% hydrochloric acid.
> Also, what have you found is the optimum temperature for the FeCl?
> Personally, my thermometer only goes up to 100 F (it's just an aquarium
> thermometer), but I think my FeCl is probably at about 110 F. I'm just
> curious what the general consensus is.
I have a vague memory of optimum etching temperature
being about 40~45 C. There is also an optimum
concentration.
> I think etching is the real limiting factor in all of the processes
> discussed.
I also have a vague memory that oxygen is required,
so that makes spraying or bubble-etching the best
methods. My first (homebuilt etcher) was actually
a simple rocking tray (rocked by a spit motor). I
found that too much etchant was a mistake, it needed
to be just enough so that the rocking motion induced
a wave that rolled along the pcb. I think this did
the required oxygenation, plus some scouring action.
My present heated bubble-etcher (when in the mood)
will do a 200x100mm board in about 7 minutes. When
cold and with old etchant that goes out to 15~20 mins.
--
Tony Williams.
George R Steber
It sounds interesting but I am not all that familiar with it.
Regards,
George
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, David Krofchok wrote:
- I've been following this discussion on prototype PCB production, and
find
- your efforts quite interesting. I usually don't suggest the method I
use
- because many people think that it's too much trouble. However, the more
I
- see problems people have making PCBs, the more I think the method I use
is
- well worth the initial effort and setup. I don't run into ANY proplems
- anymore and have been doing this for 10 ish years now.
- Reconsider screen printing etch-resist ink onto a copper-clad board.
- There are some fairly impressive benifits from adding screen-printing to
- your list of abilities:
~ You can make MANY multiple boards if you want ( I always make at least
- 4 )
- ~ You can put a solder mask on the board
- ~ You can put the "silk-screen" (white part numbers) layer onto the
- board'
- ~ You can screen-print your own CD-Rs when you get good
- ~ Water is the developer chemical needed to develop the stencil on
the
- screen
- ~ You will spend NO time doing touch-up on the boards
- ~ If you botch a board, you can easily reclaim the board with ink
- solvent
> ~ The initial $100 - $250 you invest to get started is WELL worth the
> effort
>
> If you would like the details, let me know, and I'll put together a resource
> list, and production details.
>
Greg Holdren
:>Not true, I use IC pins all the time as vias! You have to use the
:>metal on the top side which rest on the pad. This makes it
:>a piece of cake to solder on the top side. Look at one and
:>youll see.
:>
: I thought of this, but never found any sockets that rested far enough off
: of the board. If you could provide a manufacturer part # (or even a
: DigiKey part #) - I'd appreciate it!
With Machine sockets, all I have seen, has its barrel pin rest
on the pad when push down. I think you talking about the cheap-o
standard socket that bent metal with in the plastic body. The ones I'm
talking about are round pins. I use R&N, Augat mostly and AMP for the
PLCC sockets. Digikey carries Mill-Max from the looks of my catalog.
Look at the Mill-Max ED2101 to ED2123 DK part numbers. These
have integrated caps but most dont. You will find all major mfg
will make them. You should be able to find them cheaper too. :)
PS: look at the Aries in the Digikey cat. Part numbers
A400-ND to A414-ND. Open frame machine Sockets.
--
Greg Holdren
gr...@wx.rose.hp.com
Paul Amaranth
I think I recall seeing a series of articles in Nuts and Volts a few years ago
on fabricating multilayer PCBs using laminated solder mask and conductive
ink. If my memory isn't completely shot, I think it said you could do
a version of plated through holes as well. Well, I sort of filed that
in memory and now I have a project coming up where I'd like to make a
really teeny multilayer board and:
I can't find the articles
I can't find any web references to it either
If my memory is any good at all, I think the articles were written by
Think and Tinker, but their web site has no reference to this at all.
I did find a reference to a solderable conductive ink by Kester, though,
so there might be something to it.
Now, does anyone else remember seeing this series? And, if so,
did anyone ever try it?
--
Paul Amaranth | Rochester MI, USA
Aurora Group, Inc. | Software Development
pa...@AuroraGrp.Com | Unix / C / Tcl-Tk
Barry Lennox
<krof...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>If you would like the details, let me know, and I'll put together a resource
>list, and production details.
>
Yes, please. I did some silk-screening of PCBs about 23 years ago,
and was amazed at how quickly a reasonable product could be turned
out. However that was in the days of Bishop Graphics (Aaarrgghh !) so
I'd love to see how silk-screening goes these days with SMT and 12
thou tracks, I guess the silk screening technology has moved on a lot?
Anyway, please post something ASAP.
Barry Lennox
John
Please do post a list of silk-screen info. I am very interested.
John
"David Krofchok" <krof...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>If you would like the details, let me know, and I'll put together a resource
>list, and production details.
>
>
abq...@gmail.com
> hard time removing the transfered toner from the PCB. In my first attempt I
> made a mistake and tried to remove the ironed toner tracks from the PCB.
> Judging from the amount of scrubbing I had to do, I cannot imagine the how the
> tracks can survive when I'll try to remove the toner from the etched PCB. Am I
> making some mistake here? Is there any easily available chemical to disolve
> the plastic toner from the PCB?
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****************************************************************
Export Manager
Jiangmen ABQ Electronic Material CO.,LTD
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