Jesus' Birthday
snopes
>> Wasn't Jesus really born in March?
> No, in April.
Well, he was born on Easter, so we'd have to look it up and find out
whether it fell in March or April that year.
- snopes
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Eating live worms shows a total disregard for living things. We take a |
| very dim view and just wish people could think of other ways to raise |
| money." |
| - Noeline Tamplin, RSPCA spokeswoman |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| David P. Mikkelson Calif. State Univ., Northridge Northridge, CA USA |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
bill nelson
:
: >> Wasn't Jesus really born in March?
:
: > No, in April.
:
: Well, he was born on Easter, so we'd have to look it up and find out
: whether it fell in March or April that year.
No - Easter was set as the date of his resurrection. It has nothing to do
with the supposed birth date. It is also an adaption of an earlier day of
celebration from religions preceeding Christianity. Many of the symbols and
rituals used come from these religions/beliefs.
Bill
Jemaleddin Cole
>>> Wasn't Jesus really born in March?
>> No, in April.
> Well, he was born on Easter, so we'd have to look it up and find out
> whether it fell in March or April that year.
There is no way of knowing when he was born. It is possible that if
Shepherds only let their flocks graze in certain parts of the year that we
could know if he was born in summer or winter, but I doubt that that is the
case.
--
"When angry, count four; when very angry, swear."
--Mark Twain
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
dlph...@camelot.bradley.edu - dlph...@bucs1.bradley.edu
Jemaleddin Cole - Dolphin Knob - x1731
snopes
>>Well, he was born on Easter, so we'd have to look it up and find out
>>whether it fell in March or April that year.
>No - Easter was set as the date of his resurrection. It has nothing to do
>with the supposed birth date.
Uh, somebody didn't recognize the joke.
Pius X
In article <93012016...@VAX.CSUN.EDU>, VBCS...@VAX.CSUN.EDU (snopes) writes:
|> bi...@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes . . .
|>
|>>>Well, he was born on Easter, so we'd have to look it up and find out
|>>>whether it fell in March or April that year.
|>
|>>No - Easter was set as the date of his resurrection. It has nothing to do
|>>with the supposed birth date.
|>
|> Uh, somebody didn't recognize the joke.
No, you gored Bill's Blessed Bovine. An inquisitor will be knocking on your
door shortly.
bill nelson
:
: |>>No - Easter was set as the date of his resurrection. It has nothing to do
: |>>with the supposed birth date.
: |>
: |> Uh, somebody didn't recognize the joke.
:
: No, you gored Bill's Blessed Bovine. An inquisitor will be knocking on your
: door shortly.
Who? Terry? Derek? Ya wanna watch? It'll cost you two-fifty.
The last sacred cow I had, I ate.
Bill "Holy Cow! Look at all them Cotton Picking Indians!" - G. Custer" Nelson
Paul Harvey
>In <93011920...@VAX.CSUN.EDU> VBCS...@VAX.CSUN.EDU (snopes) writes:
>>>> Wasn't Jesus really born in March?
>>> No, in April.
>> Well, he was born on Easter, so we'd have to look it up and find out
>> whether it fell in March or April that year.
>There is no way of knowing when he was born. It is possible that if
>Shepherds only let their flocks graze in certain parts of the year that we
>could know if he was born in summer or winter, but I doubt that that is the
>case.
Jesus was born in spring when lambs are born. Easter is probably
correct.
Richard A. Schumacher
>>>whether it fell in March or April that year.
>>No - Easter was set as the date of his resurrection. It has nothing to do
>>with the supposed birth date.
> Uh, somebody didn't recognize the joke.
Well, that makes two of us. What was the joke meant to be?
R.
Peter van der Linden
> Well, he was born on Easter, so we'd have to look it up and find out
> whether it fell in March or April that year.
"Doesn't get it" (prob. Jik-dick) #1
> No - Easter was set as the date of his resurrection. It has nothing to do
> with the supposed birth date.
From: schu...@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher) "doesn't get it" #2:
> What was the joke meant to be?
If you are "resurrected" you are "born again" -- you have another birthday!
So you can sing "Happy Birthday" to Jesus on Xmas day and at Easter!
(Did you ever notice how humor loses something when you explain it?)
--
The four Prefix brothers: Yocto, Zepto, Atto, and Femto
Terry Chan
+Joke: [NOTE: BAD sign]
+> Well, he was born on Easter, so we'd have to look it up and find out
+> whether it fell in March or April that year.
[Exposition and obligatory jik-dik reference deleted.]
+
+(Did you ever notice how humor loses something when you explain it?)
Well, if it comes to this, we might have to go for something
like alt.folklore.urban.d or alt.folklore.urban.funny.
Anyone want to write a CFV?
Terry "Not a Brad" Chan
--
Energy and Environment Division | Internet: TWC...@lbl.gov
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory |
Berkeley, California USA 94720 | Yeah, right.
bruce watson
Paul Harvey
>>>>Well, he was born on Easter, so we'd have to look it up and find out
>>>>whether it fell in March or April that year.
>>>with the supposed birth date.
>> Uh, somebody didn't recognize the joke.
>Well, that makes two of us. What was the joke meant to be?
The joke is that Jesus never existed, at least there were no Hebrews by
that name. It's all an old superstitious myth, some kind of urban or
even SUBurban legend gone astray, converted into a meme, rather SPOOKY really.
And I mean that in the kindest way possums.
snopes
>> What was the joke meant to be?
>If you are "resurrected" you are "born again" -- you have another birthday!
>So you can sing "Happy Birthday" to Jesus on Xmas day and at Easter!
Peter is without a doubt the smartest person on this network. Or at least
the second-smartest person in this article.
- snopes
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
| "A few stems of asparagus eaten shall give our urine a disagreeable odor." |
| |
| - Benjamin Franklin |
Ted Frank
>(Did you ever notice how humor loses something when you explain it?)
Twain (or was it Disraeli?) once said dissecting humor is like dissecting
a frog. Once you fry the legs a bit, they taste just like chicken. No,
wait, that can't be it...
>The four Prefix brothers: Yocto, Zepto, Atto, and Femto
Ted "and sometimes Gummo" Frank
--
ted frank | th...@ellis.uchicago.edu
standard disclaimers | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Drew Lawson
>(Did you ever notice how humor loses something when you explain it?)
I don't understand. Just what do you mean by that?
Drew "couldn't resist -- Monday morning" Lawson
--
Drew Lawson If you're not part of the solution,
law...@acuson.com you're part of the precipitate
Derek Tearne
>no...@twg.com (Pius X) writes:
>:
>: |>>No - Easter was set as the date of his resurrection. It has nothing to do
>: |>>with the supposed birth date.
>: |>
>: |> Uh, somebody didn't recognize the joke.
>:
>: No, you gored Bill's Blessed Bovine. An inquisitor will be knocking on your
>: door shortly.
>
>Who? Terry? Derek? Ya wanna watch? It'll cost you two-fifty.
Remember, never taunt the Happy Fun Bull<tm>.
Derek "Noooobody expects the New Zealand inquisition" Tearne
--
Derek Tearne. -- de...@nezsdc.icl.co.nz -- Fujitsu New Zealand --
_______
_______} This is a Usenet Condom<tm>. Roll the condom over the .signature
file before posting to protect yourself from .sig retro-virii
Nolan Hinshaw
|>Well, if it comes to this, we might have to go for something
|>like alt.folklore.urban.d or alt.folklore.urban.funny.
|>Anyone want to write a CFV?
Now THAT's funny!
|>Terry "Not a Brad" Chan
No, definitely not. More like a Tack or a Staple.
--
bill nelson
: >:
: >: door shortly.
: >
: >Who? Terry? Derek? Ya wanna watch? It'll cost you two-fifty.
:
: Remember, never taunt the Happy Fun Bull<tm>.
:
: Derek "Noooobody expects the New Zealand inquisition" Tearne
Hey Derek. You gonna make it over for AFU West V? I am sure someone
would be willing to meet you at the airport. We could have a scrum
to get the AFU Ball Game to a good kickoff.
Bill
Terry Smith
ph> correct.
Hmm.. lambs are usually born before or around mid-winter in Aotearoa, tho part
of the reason was more money if they were landed in the U.K. before
Saturnalia.
Terry
* Origin: Elizabeth Park BBS (3:800/870.0)
Elaine Richards
In article <fYj...@quack.sac.ca.us> pha...@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>
>The joke is that Jesus never existed, at least there were no Hebrews by
>that name. It's all an old superstitious myth, some kind of urban or
>even SUBurban legend gone astray, converted into a meme, rather SPOOKY really.
>And I mean that in the kindest way possums.
That's because the name was changed when he landed at Ellis Island.
JC's real name is Joshua Ben Joseph.
ER
--
Great apes are ok. It's the mediocre apes and the baboons and especially
the lemurs that are trouble.
-Henry Troup (alt.folklore.urban)
bill nelson
: Unfortunately I am feeling a little poor at the moment. The doctor suggests
: that a quiet period with no foreign travel can work wonders for those sadly
: stretched bank accounts. I might be better in time for AFU West VIII though.
: The kick off will therefore have to be delayed until my wallet injury has
: fully recovered. Looking forward to it though.
:
: Unless I get a lucrative offer of work + green card in the next couple of
: weeks of course. You are surrounded by fault lines, computers, tar pits
: full of gooey animals and rock musicians. There must be a niche for a
: computer programming, bass playing geologist somewhere around there!
Hm, what do we do if the ball falls into a fault fissure? The tar pits are
way South of here - are they in the playing field? What do we do if we end
up with a tar ball? How about a fur ball? Do we have a gerbil retrieve it?
We have not yet put up Concertina wire to keep the Californians out of the
state. We are thinking of imposing a $500/foot transit tax on travel homes
from California and Florida.
Maybe one of us will win the $10M PCH "lottery". Then we could hold an
AFU West session in NZ and fly everyone over.
Bill
Derek Tearne
Unfortunately I am feeling a little poor at the moment. The doctor suggests
that a quiet period with no foreign travel can work wonders for those sadly
stretched bank accounts. I might be better in time for AFU West VIII though.
The kick off will therefore have to be delayed until my wallet injury has
fully recovered. Looking forward to it though.
Unless I get a lucrative offer of work + green card in the next couple of
weeks of course. You are surrounded by fault lines, computers, tar pits
full of gooey animals and rock musicians. There must be a niche for a
computer programming, bass playing geologist somewhere around there!
Derek "Itchy feet gather no broth" Tearne
Elaine Richards
>No - Easter was set as the date of his resurrection. It has nothing to do
>with the supposed birth date. It is also an adaption of an earlier day of
>celebration from religions preceeding Christianity. Many of the symbols and
>rituals used come from these religions/beliefs.
Easter is Oester - a fertility festival.
Christmas is the Saturnalia - a general festival for farmers
who get bored in midwinter.
Derek Tearne
>de...@nezsdc.icl.co.nz (Derek Tearne) (Me) writes:
>:
>: Unless I get a lucrative offer of work + green card in the next couple of
>: weeks of course. You are surrounded by fault lines, computers, tar pits
>: full of gooey animals and rock musicians. There must be a niche for a
>: computer programming, bass playing geologist somewhere around there!
>
>Hm, what do we do if the ball falls into a fault fissure?
If the ball falls into an open fissure the next poster who fits the following
criteria must go and fetch it. We shouldn't have to wait long.
Ball newbie criteria: Posts without reading FAQ or reading AFU for more than
a month. Has a signature file which is > than 4 lines long and contains
complex ascii graphics and/or tabs. Quotes the whole of the previous
article but adds no new text other than a .signature file of the type
described above. Comments like "I don't usually read this newsgroup -
please e-mail" also qualify.
>The tar pits are
>way South of here - are they in the playing field? What do we do if we end
>up with a tar ball? How about a fur ball? Do we have a gerbil retrieve it?
That would be a tarry furrfu ball in the butt Bob.
I guess the tar pits are a way away but, hey, this is a fast moving game!
>Maybe one of us will win the $10M PCH "lottery". Then we could hold an
>AFU West session in NZ and fly everyone over.
That would be AFU REALLY REALLY WAY SOUTH. Look forward to seeing you here.
Derek "Watch out for the tar p... yeeow gross" Tearne
--
Derek Tearne. -- de...@nezsdc.icl.co.nz -- Fujitsu New Zealand --
The only good quote is a dead quote. (D.R.Tearne Jan 1993)
The only good Injun is a deaaagh (General Custer overheard during Last Stand)
bill nelson
:
: Easter is Oester - a fertility festival.
Yep - interesting that two symbols associated with the festival are
the bunny and eggs.
Bill "Hm, Bunny and Eggs. Might be better than Corned Beef Hash." Nelson
Steve Hayes
>Jesus was born in spring when lambs are born. Easter is probably
>correct.
That's the bunnies, you nit. This should be in alt.devilbunnies.
Anyway, the Bible says Jesus was born on or around 25 December, in mid
summer.
============================================================
Steve Hayes, Department of Missiology & Editorial Department
Univ. of South Africa, P.O. Box 392, Pretoria, 0001 South Africa
Internet: haye...@risc1.unisa.ac.za
steve...@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
stephe...@f20.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
John Miley
>In article <fYg...@quack.sac.ca.us> pha...@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>Jesus was born in spring when lambs are born. Easter is probably
>>correct.
>That's the bunnies, you nit. This should be in alt.devilbunnies.
>Anyway, the Bible says Jesus was born on or around 25 December, in mid
>summer.
Exactly where does your bible say this? and which variation are you
quoting from?
>============================================================
>Steve Hayes, Department of Missiology & Editorial Department
>Univ. of South Africa, P.O. Box 392, Pretoria, 0001 South Africa
>Internet: haye...@risc1.unisa.ac.za
> steve...@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
> stephe...@f20.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
Just wondering,
John
===========================================================================
John Miley /\ Here's hopin' yuir
jpm...@hubcap.clemson.edu /\ dwellin' in the Land o'
Box 9185, Clemson University /\ the Fairie a full day
Clemson, SC 29632-9185 /\ afore the christian god
/\ ken's yuir dead.
==========================================================================
Steve Hayes
>>Anyway, the Bible says Jesus was born on or around 25 December, in mid
>>summer.
>
>Exactly where does your bible say this? and which variation are you
>quoting from?
My theory (which I will maintain is as plausible as any of the "pagan
festivals" ones) is that in the fourth century when Christians were debating
over whether Jesus was God or man or both, those who accepted that he was
both began to make a big deal out of celebrating his birth. The question
would arise - when should they celebrate it?
Some one, or perhaps several people, had a look at Lukes gospel, and would
see in chapter one that the sangel came to Mary "in the sixth month". When
would that be?
Jewish new year is around 25 December, which puts the Annunciation around 25
March. Add nine months, and what do you get?
Steve "I can count gestation periods" Hayes
Daniel Segard
haye...@risc1.unisa.ac.za (Steve Hayes) writes:
> Some one, or perhaps several people, had a look at Lukes gospel, and
> would see in chapter one that the sangel came to Mary "in the sixth
> month". When would that be?
Well, let's see.... The first month is AVIV, the month of green
leaves, the month when Passover occurs. The 7th month is the month which
starts with Rosh Hashannah. So the event in the sixth month would have
occured within 30 days prior to Rosh Hashannah.
> Jewish new year is around 25 December,
The modern "Jewish new year" is Rosh Hashannah, though this is the 7th
month of the Biblical calendar. I've never heard of a Jewish new year that
occurs on 25 December though.
Let's see, the circumcision of a son was always done on the 8th day,
so if December 25th is a holiday, then you could celebrate the 8th day --
January 1st as a holiday too. Hmmmm....
Steve Hayes
> > Jewish new year is around 25 December,
>
> The modern "Jewish new year" is Rosh Hashannah, though this is the 7th
>month of the Biblical calendar. I've never heard of a Jewish new year that
>occurs on 25 December though.
Sorry, that should have been 25 September.
> Let's see, the circumcision of a son was always done on the 8th day,
>so if December 25th is a holiday, then you could celebrate the 8th day --
>January 1st as a holiday too. Hmmmm....
We do.
Ray Depew
> Some one, or perhaps several people, had a look at Lukes gospel, and would
> see in chapter one that the sangel came to Mary "in the sixth month". When
> would that be?
It would be when her cousin, Elizabeth, was SIX MONTHS PREGNANT. Read the
entire chapter.
Christ's birth is celebrated on December 25 because it's convenient. From
my personal archives:
> ... Christmas stopped being a "Christian holiday" years/decades ago,
> when it became a time for special sales, winter vacations and the like.
> As a matter of fact, Christmas started out as a pagan festival celebrating the
> winter solstice (Dec 21 or 22, right?), and that's where a lot of our
> "traditional" Christmas symbols come from. The polytheistic Roman empire
> changed it into a festival celebrating the annual advent of Janus, the god
> of gates and new beginnings and such ("January". Get it?). The Holy Roman
> Empire, when it abolished all pagan festivals, replaced the feast of Janus
> with Christ's Mass. (Likewise, other "pagan" rituals were replaced with
> Christian "feasts", such as St. Stephen's, St. Valentine's, St. Patrick's,
> St. Joseph's, St. John the Baptist's, All Hallow's Eve...) It's not even
> clear that Jesus was born on December 25th; that appears to be a number that
> the Pope pulled out of his hat.
>
> $HAIR-SPLITTING ON
> Was Easter an attempt to compete with the Passover for Nielsen ratings? Did
> the Romans consider the Jews to be "pagans"? And isn't it interesting that
> Passover and Easter celebrate the same event, one symbolically and the other
> literally?
> $HAIR-SPLITTING OFF
If this turns into a religious discussion, I quit. I was told we didn't have
to discuss religion in this newsgroup.
-- Ray
Steve Hayes
>From: r...@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Ray Depew)
>> Some one, or perhaps several people, had a look at Lukes gospel, and would
>> see in chapter one that the sangel came to Mary "in the sixth month". When
>> would that be?
>
>It would be when her cousin, Elizabeth, was SIX MONTHS PREGNANT. Read the
>entire chapter.
So it would.
But she could have got pregnant in the first month, couldn't she?
Or the guy who was looking for a date to set could have thought she did,
whether she did or not.
And Luke could have thought it was a nice time to have a new beginning.
>Christ's birth is celebrated on December 25 because it's convenient. From
>my personal archives:
>
>> ... Christmas stopped being a "Christian holiday" years/decades ago,
>> when it became a time for special sales, winter vacations and the like.
Nah, summer vacations....
>
>> As a matter of fact, Christmas started out as a pagan festival celebrating the
>> winter solstice (Dec 21 or 22, right?), and that's where a lot of our
>> "traditional" Christmas symbols come from. The polytheistic Roman empire
>> changed it into a festival celebrating the annual advent of Janus, the god
>> of gates and new beginnings and such ("January". Get it?). The Holy Roman
>> Empire, when it abolished all pagan festivals, replaced the feast of Janus
>> with Christ's Mass. (Likewise, other "pagan" rituals were replaced with
>> Christian "feasts", such as St. Stephen's, St. Valentine's, St. Patrick's,
>> St. Joseph's, St. John the Baptist's, All Hallow's Eve...) It's not even
>> clear that Jesus was born on December 25th; that appears to be a number that
>> the Pope pulled out of his hat.
I suggest that the pope might just as easily have pulled it out of Luke's
gospel as out of his hat. In fact I think it more likely.
The rest, of course, is all legend, urban or otherwise.
Unless you can come up with some evidence that the Janus story is NOT a UL,
and the alternative Saturnalia story as well, and the Sol Invictus one too.
Mine is also a UL. I got it out of my hat. But it's just as likely to be
true as any of the others, the only difference being that they were pulled
out of other people's hat.
Actually it appeared on a clay tablet in a microwave oven that some old lady
had dried her cat in.
>If this turns into a religious discussion, I quit. I was told we didn't have
>to discuss religion in this newsgroup.
Ah well, not even religious urban legends....
Did you hear the one about how everyone was expecting the world to end
around the year 1000. 'safact - I read it in the incunabula.
Steve "New Year is on 6 April" Hayes
Cap'n Jack
>In article <fYg...@quack.sac.ca.us> pha...@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>
>>Jesus was born in spring when lambs are born. Easter is probably
>>correct.
>
>That's the bunnies, you nit. This should be in alt.devilbunnies.
>
>Anyway, the Bible says Jesus was born on or around 25 December, in mid
>summer.
>
WHERE???????? I've never seen it and I've read it from cover to cover....
What's the corolation between the Hebrew and Julian calandar anyway?
>
>============================================================
>Steve Hayes, Department of Missiology & Editorial Department
>Univ. of South Africa, P.O. Box 392, Pretoria, 0001 South Africa
>Internet: haye...@risc1.unisa.ac.za
> steve...@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
> stephe...@f20.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
*******************************************************************************
Jack Roberts aka Cap'n Jack * " Was she in pain?" "Yes, then we cut off
j_ro...@oz.plymouth.edu * her head and put a stake through her heart."
Jack.R...@launchpad.unc.edu* Abraham Von Helsing
this line left blank * Bram Stoker's Dracula, The Movie
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jan Lambert
: -- Ray
I understood that Christmas was celebrated during the midwinter season when
the Christians moved into the British Isles. Attempting to convince the
locals to celebrate Christ's Mass, they latched onto the season of Yule Tide,
a traditional time of gift giving. Seeing the similarity to the Wise Men's
visit to Bethlehem, they convinced the people to celebrate both holidays
at the same time.
Jan - "I've been known to be wrong, but not often enough to mess up
my average"
--
e-mail to JA...@UIDAHO.EDU
University of Idaho, Moscow, Idaho
My computer bytes back.
But only in little bits.
Ray Depew
enjoyable counterpoint:
> >> ... Christmas stopped being a "Christian holiday" years/decades ago,
> >> when it became a time for special sales, winter vacations and the like.
>
> Nah, summer vacations....
Oops, sorry. My northern bias is showing. I pulled this out of a post
that was originally directed at Colorado residents. Apologies to the
meridionally-inclined, and also to the equatorially-inclined.
> >> As a matter of fact, Christmas started out as
[...]
>
> I suggest that the pope might just as easily have pulled it out of Luke's
> gospel as out of his hat. In fact I think it more likely.
>
> The rest, of course, is all legend, urban or otherwise.
>
> Unless you can come up with some evidence that the Janus story is NOT a UL,
> and the alternative Saturnalia story as well, and the Sol Invictus one too.
Well, not an URBAN legend, but definitely a legend ...
> Mine is also a UL. I got it out of my hat. But it's just as likely to be
> true as any of the others, the only difference being that they were pulled
> out of other people's hat.
I like it! The Janus information was from a report I did in high school.
(Long, long ago. Probably when people were still worshipping Janus et al.)
I imagine that it's in Bullfinch's Mythology or a decent encyclopedia, but I
will confess to being too lazy at this moment to go look it up.
> >If this turns into a religious discussion, I quit. I was told we didn't have
> >to discuss religion in this newsgroup.
>
> Ah well, not even religious urban legends....
>
> Did you hear the one about how everyone was expecting the world to end
> around the year 1000. 'safact - I read it in the incunabula.
Funny, a lot of people are saying the same thing about the year 2000. I
vote we renumber the years, so we won't have to worry about it for a few
more centuries.
Regards
Ray
r...@hpfiqa.fc.hp.com
Joe Slater
>Some one, or perhaps several people, had a look at Lukes gospel, and would
>see in chapter one that the sangel came to Mary "in the sixth month". When
>would that be?
>Jewish new year is around 25 December, which puts the Annunciation around 25
>March. Add nine months, and what do you get?
There are a few problems with this. Firstly, Rosh Hashona (Jewish new
year) is typically three months earlier, in September. Secondly, the new
year falls at the end of the sixth month, not at the start of the first. It
just does, sorry. Lastly, does anyone really know what the Christian
calendar was originally like, after all the stuffing about?
jds
--
Phone: +61-3-525-8728 | And we are here as on a darkling plain
Fax: +61-3-562-0756 | Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
j...@zikzak.apana.org.au | Where ignorant armies clash by night.
Ian Phillipps
>> Let's see, the circumcision of a son was always done on the 8th day,
>>so if December 25th is a holiday, then you could celebrate the 8th day --
>>January 1st as a holiday too. Hmmmm....
>We do.
For many years, the Cambridge University pocket diary said of Jan 1:
Circumcision
Library closed to readers.
... and you thought they were just stock-taking the books.
Ian "I hope that knife's sharp" Phillipps
--
Ian Phillipps, Unipalm Ltd, 216 Science Park, Phone +44 223 420002
Milton Road, Cambridge, CB4 4WA, England. Phax +44 223 426868
PIPEX is a division of Unipalm Ltd. - phone 0223 424616.
Charles Robert Odell
that because it was traditionally though to be
the year of birth for Christ. But scholars
nowadays push that back by several years (7-3 B.c.) or so. For
crying out loud, they cant even agree on the YEAR!! How the
hell would they ever find the exact date??? IMHO, this is one
problem that is unlikely to be figured out. Heck, the only
thing that can be agreed upon (from a historical viewpoint, not
religious) is that J.C. existed.
Drew Lawson
>From
>my personal archives:
>> $HAIR-SPLITTING ON
>> Was Easter an attempt to compete with the Passover for Nielsen ratings? Did
>> the Romans consider the Jews to be "pagans"?
Actually, I've heard that the Romans tended to consider the Jews to be
athiests because they did not have gods in their houses and did not
worship the gods known to the Romans.
Drew "Apart from the roads, the wine, education, and government,
what have the Romans ever done for us?" Lawson
--
+--------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Drew Lawson | Broke my mind |
| law...@acuson.com | had no spare |
+--------------------+-------------------------------------+
Doug Atkinson
> In article <1993Mar9.1...@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> dse...@nyx.cs.du.edu (Daniel Segard) writes:
>
>> Let's see, the circumcision of a son was always done on the 8th day,
>>so if December 25th is a holiday, then you could celebrate the 8th day --
>>January 1st as a holiday too. Hmmmm....
>
> We do.
>
the 25th as day 1? Is there a Day Zero?
Ack....
--Doug
Dennis G. Jerz
This is in response to the questions about the dates of the birth of
the historical Jesus of Nazareth. I think I remember reading
somewhere that shepherds wouldn't have been out in the fields in the
middle of the night in December... but the more imporant thing to note
is that in the early days of Christianity, there was plenty of
competition from the pagans. Just as the modern secular society has
"borrowed" religious holidays, so too the developing Chrisitan
societyborrowed some pagan holidays -- December 25 (or thereabouts)
was the feast of the unconquered sun, when the days started getting
longer and the nights shorter. The English pun of sun / son comes to
mind... in Old English, both words were spelled "sunu." The pun works
in some other languages, too, but I don't think a pun caused the
selection of that date... it was already a time of celebration and a
holiday, and it seemed natural to pick that date. The Annunciation
was celebrated on Lady Day, March 25, which was the beginning of
spring -- the conception of Christ / the Annunciation to Mary was
celebrated at the beginnign of spring in connection with the fertility
of the Virgin, the beginning of the Christian message of salvation,
and the beginning of the life of the Savior in his mother's womb.
December 25 is nine months later. The Julian Calendar, which was
instituted by the emperor Julius Caesar, was off by a couple hours
each year...
As for the confusion over Jesus's being born in 1 AD by tradition and
6 or 7 BC by historical evidence, I am reasonably sure that more
modern historians know the name of the 6th century monk (or 10th or
whatever) who made an error in addition that caused him to
mis-estimate the birth of Christ. Instead of making fun of the early
Church for getting the dates wrong, recognize that the measurement of time
and the desire for an accurate calendar springs directly from the
religious urge to make sure that you are celebrating the right holy
days on the right days of the year. Also, the development of accurate
clocks has a lot to do with the Medieval practice of saying prayers at
sext, nonnes, vespers, etc. If your religious superiors told you to
say Mass at noon, you did your darndest to make sure that you said it
at the right time! It was a mathematician in the court of Pope
Gregory the 13th (if I recall my roman numerals correctly) who figured
out the calendar system that we use today -- the Gregorian Calendar.
The Julian Calendar was 10 days behind when the Gregorian Calendar was
introduced... some Protestant countries kept to their old system even
though they knew it was less accurate. For a couple hundred years,
there was a 10 and eventually an 11-day "time warp" when you crossed
the English channel. There's plenty of folklore & old-world legends
surrounding the calendar change, and in fact it was for a class in
folklore taught by Prof. Charles Perdue at the University of Virginia
that I did the research which makes me stick my neck out by pretending
to know what I am talking about.
If anybody wants to learn more about the calendar (no pushing... form
an orderly line... no need to cause a massive rush on the internet
system) I'd be happy to dig out the paper I wrote.
No sig, just a message about having no sig.
Dennis G. Jerz
University of Toronto
Ph.D. English candidate
Daniel Segard
haye...@risc1.unisa.ac.za (Steve Hayes) writes:
SH> Jewish new year is around 25 December,
>
DS> The modern "Jewish new year" is Rosh Hashannah, though this is
DS> the 7th month of the Biblical calendar. I've never heard of a
DS> Jewish new year that occurs on 25 December though.
>
SH> Sorry, that should have been 25 September.
Well, that is usually not true, though we did have it fall on 25
September back in 1976.... But since the Jewish civil calendar is
strictly lunar based obviously the new moon/new month is not going to
always fall at the same time of the month on the secular calendar which is
not based on the moon, but on (the sign of the Zodiac? personal whim?
something else?)
DS> Let's see, the circumcision of a son was always done on
DS> the 8th day, so if December 25th is a holiday, then you
DS> could celebrate the 8th day --January 1st as a holiday
DS> too. Hmmmm....
>
SH> We do.
But do you celebrate January 1st because of the circumcision or do
you celebrate January 1st as the "new year"?
Daniel Segard
j...@zikzak.apana.org.au (Joe Slater) writes:
> Secondly, the new year falls at the end of the sixth month, not
> at the start of the first. It just does, sorry. Lastly, does
> anyone really know what the Christian calendar was originally
> like, after all the stuffing about?
"Christian calendar". The people involved were all Jewish so it was the
calendar given in Torah that would have been used in the description.
Steve Hayes
>>Jewish new year is around 25 December, which puts the Annunciation around 25
>>March. Add nine months, and what do you get?
>
>There are a few problems with this. Firstly, Rosh Hashona (Jewish new
>year) is typically three months earlier, in September. Secondly, the new
>year falls at the end of the sixth month, not at the start of the first. It
>just does, sorry. Lastly, does anyone really know what the Christian
>calendar was originally like, after all the stuffing about?
Yup, it was a typo. Should have been 25 September.
And maybe the fourth century Palestinian or Egyptian Christian who picked
the 25 December wasn't up on how the Jews numbered their months 350 years
earlier. Of course if there is definite evidence that no Jews ever
celebrated Rosh Hashona before the 8th century, then there is a problem.
Look, I'm trying to create an urban legend here - why does everyone have to
make it so difficult?
My main argument, however, is that my UL has just as much plausibility as
the Saturnalia and Sol Invictus ones, for which I have never seen a shred of
evidence - just assertions made by people centuries after the fact.
Steve Hayes
> I understood that Christmas was celebrated during the midwinter season when
>the Christians moved into the British Isles. Attempting to convince the
>locals to celebrate Christ's Mass, they latched onto the season of Yule Tide,
>a traditional time of gift giving. Seeing the similarity to the Wise Men's
>visit to Bethlehem, they convinced the people to celebrate both holidays
>at the same time.
> Jan - "I've been known to be wrong, but not often enough to mess up
> my average"
That's why it's called U.L. tide.
bill nelson
: problem that is unlikely to be figured out. Heck, the only
: thing that can be agreed upon (from a historical viewpoint, not
: religious) is that J.C. existed.
Even that cannot be agreed about - even by Christians.
Bill
Jonathan Papai
SH> = haye...@risc1.unisa.ac.za (Steve Hayes) writes:
DS> I've never heard of a
DS> Jewish new year that occurs on 25 December though.
SH> Sorry, that should have been 25 September.
Hey.. Didn't George Bush claim that Japan attacked on 07 Sept. 1941
instead of 07 Dec. 1941 ?
Jon "To Ra To Ra To Ra" Papai
Robin Halligan
[interesting bits about calanders fell off]
: I did the research which makes me stick my neck out by pretending
: to know what I am talking about.
now there is a quote and a half
obquote:(from a book i found in the depths of my book shelf)
Charles Darwin's great book -ORIGIN OF SPECIES- and with it his entire theory
of evolution was nearly scuppered by a man's dislike for his nose.
Captain Fitzroy, the skipper of the Beagle, which was to take Darwin on his
historic five year long journey, objected to darwin being allowed on the
survey on account of the shape of his proboscis.
The captain was a keen student of physiognomy and he was convinced that
anyone with a nose like Darwin's would have neither the stamina nor the
determination to complete a long and arduous sea voyage.
However he was later persuaded to relent and allowed the great naturalist
to accompany the expedition to the south American coasts.
quoted from Dave Dutton & Graham Nown
ODD BALLS!
Astonishing tales of the
Great Eccentrics
--
sta...@crash.amigans.gen.nz (Robin Halligan)
Amigans Public Access UUCP Node Wanganui New Zealand
I'm a K 1 W 1 from the land of the long white cloud
from the day i begun till the day i'm done
I'm a K1W1
Ted Frank
You may be on to something, Jon.
Ted "Torah, Torah, Torah" Frank
--
ted frank |"I just LOVE water sports! Our teachers are complete
th...@ellis.uchicago.edu | pros! Jamila and I actually synchronized our strokes!
the u of c law school | We did the whole length of the pool on our backs!"
standard disclaimers | -- Girl Scout Cookies, Peanut Butter Patties
Terry Chan
+>Hey.. Didn't George Bush claim that Japan attacked on 07 Sept. 1941
+>instead of 07 Dec. 1941 ?
+>
+>Jon "To Ra To Ra To Ra" Papai
th...@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
+
+You may be on to something, Jon.
+
+Ted "Torah, Torah, Torah" Frank
No, that should be "...on something", Ted. Then again, wasn't
December 7 programmed in one of the user manuals to a VCR?
Terry "Terry, Terry, Terry" Chan
--
Energy and Environment Division | Internet: TWC...@lbl.gov
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory |
Berkeley, California USA 94720 | Yeah, right.
Wayne McDougall
There are lots of historical events where the month and even day are known,
but not the year. Clues such as astronomical observations help.
One of the layers of Silsbury Hill in the UK is known to have been built in
Spring because of the pollen found trapped in that layer. The year is only
an approximation, though.
--
Wayne McDougall : #DISCLAIMER# These views are shared by Bill.
Ask me about the Auckland Festival of Missions, 18-25 April, 1993
I always change my mind when new evidence is available. What method do you use?
Bill Cornette
: spring -- the conception of Christ / the Annunciation to Mary was
: celebrated at the beginnign of spring in connection with the fertility
: of the Virgin, the beginning of the Christian message of salvation,
: and the beginning of the life of the Savior in his mother's womb.
: December 25 is nine months later. The Julian Calendar, which was
: instituted by the emperor Julius Caesar, was off by a couple hours
: each year...
I have also heard that the choice of the 25th was due to
Hannukah (a minor Jewish holiday that has taken on more importance
in the US in competition with Christmas) starting on the 25th of
Kislev (a month in the Jewish lunar calendar).
YuNoHoo
|> In alt.folklore.urban, haye...@risc1.unisa.ac.za (Steve Hayes) writes:
|> > Christian "feasts", such as St. Stephen's, St. Valentine's, St. Patrick's,
|>
|> Hm, I think I've got a reference here on the origin of All Saint's (All Hallow's)
|> that makes it stick out like a sore thumb in your list. I'll check this, but I've
|> got a few books on the history of theatre and I think one one them (at least) All
|> Saint's to be a more convenient time of the year to perform passion plays than
|> Christmas and Easter. [...]
|>
|> I'll return to my homely pile'o'books and shall return with a definite reference.
Sh**t, I mixed up Corpus Christi and All Saint's - and apparently nobody noticed.
---
YuNoHoo "Saints are not my strong side.."
ne...@cerritos.edu
town of Bethlehem in the Judean Hills south of Jerusalem to participate in
annual Christmas celebrations there. Some make the 6-mile journey from
Jerusalem on foot. Unpon arrivaal, they crowd with silent awe into the paved
expanse of Manger Square in front of the revered Church of the Nativity, built
over the traditional site of Jesus' birth.
Inevitably, some of these tourists arrive in Israel unprepared. They have
not thoroughly studied their guidebooks. As they step off the their plane,
they receive a real shock!
November through early March is "winter" in Israel! The weather gets cold,
especially at night. Often it rains... or even snows! Yet many arrive in
Israel carrying luggage bulging with summer attire, reasoning that it is always
hot and arid in the Middle East. So they hurriedly purchase coats and sweaters
in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem so they can make their pilgrimage down to Bethlehem.
Nevertheless, most of those who stand in Manger Square on December 25 each
year... prepared and unperpared alike... fail to perceive the message being
perclaimed by the very weather around them!
Notice this plain testimony of your Bible: On the day of Jesus' birth "there
were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over
their flock by night" (Luke 2:8).
Ask any bibical scholar, or any modern Israeli: This never could occurred
in Judea in the month of December... nor even in November, or late October as
far as that is concerned!
In ancient times as today, shepherds brought their flocks in from the fields
and penned them in shelters no later than the middle of October! This was
necessary to protect them from the cold, rainy season that usually followed
that date. (The Bible itself makes it clear that winter in Palestine is a rainy
season; see Ezra 10:9, 13; Song of Solomon 2:11).
Yet Luke 2:8 tells us that at the time of Jesus' birth, the shepherds were
yet abiding in the fields... by night, at that! They had not yet brought their
flocks home to the sheepfolds. Clearly the cold, rainy season had not yet
commenced.
Thus, on the basis of Luke's testimony alone, we see that Jesus could not
have been born no later than mid-October... when the weather is still pleasant
at Bethlehem. A December 25 nativity is too late!
Additional bibical evidence lends further support to the foregoing
conclusion.
Luke 1:24-38 informs us that the virgin Mary miraculously became pregnant
with Jesus when her cousin Elizabeth was six months pregnant with a child who
would later be known as John the Baptist. Jesus, then, would have been born
six months after John.
If we could know the time of John's birth, we could then simply add six
months and know the time of Jesus birth.
Does the Bible reveal the general time of John birth?
Notice: Elizabeth's husband Zacharias was a priest at the Temple in
Jerusalem. Luke 1:5 records that Zacharias was "of the course of Abia [in
Hebrew, Abijah]." In the days of King David of ancient Israel (10th century
B.C.), the number of priests had so increased that they had to be divided into
24 courses of shifts, which would take turns in performing the priestly duties
(1 Chron.24). Each course served one week at a time, beginning and ending on
a weekly Sabbath day (2 Chron.23:8). The course of Abijah was the eighth
course or shift in the rotation (1 Chron.24:10).
The Talmud (collection of Jewish civil aand religious laws and commentaries)
records that the first course performed its duties in the first week of the
first month of the Hebrew calandar. This month (called Abib or Nisan) begins
about the start of spring in the Northern Hemisphere.
The second course worked the second week. The third week... being the
annual festival season of Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread... found
all 24 courses serving together, sharing the heavy duties of that special time.
The third shift then took its turn during the fourth week of the year.
Projecting forward, the eighth course... the course of Abijah, in which
Zacharias' served... worked the ninth week of the year. But Zacharias course
stayed on at the Temple to serve the 10th week also... the week of the annual
Pentecost festival... along with all the other courses.
It was during that two-week period of work... near the end of spring... that
the announcement by the archangel Gabriel came to Zacharias regarding his
wife's imminent conception (Luke 1:8-20). When his two weeks' service was
completed, Zacharias and Elizabeth went back to their home and Elizabeth
conceived (verse 23-24)... sometime late in June or early July.
The rest is a matter of biology and arithmetic. Elizabeth's sixth month of
pregnancy would have been in December. She would have given birth three months
later... in late March or early April of the following year. Six month after
that, Jesus would have been born, in late September or early October... before
the sheep were brought in from the fields, as we have seen! Clearly, Jesus
was not born in December.
Late September or early October was also the time of the year that taxes
were customarily paid... in the fall, at the end of the harvest. Joseph and
Mary, it will be remembered, had journeyed to Bethlehem to be taxed
(Luke 2:3-5).
The fact that there was "no room for them at the inn" (Luke 2:7) also
suggests the time of the autumn harvest, because the annual fall festivals
occurring at that time attracted multitudes of Jews to Jerusalem and nearby
towns, filling all available accommodations.
No parking EXCEPT FOR BOB
> Heck, the only
> thing that can be agreed upon (from a historical viewpoint, not
> religious) is that J.C. existed.
Are you serious?
Bob O'Bob
--