Is there any possibility to become a Clarion programmer?
Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)
Is there any possibility to find Clarion related job? Is there any future
for us - Clarion programmers - without marketing and publicity support of
Softvelocity?
I tried to persuade many times my bosses, colleagues and friends about the
excellent capabilities of Clarion but they have always used other tools -
maybe more expensive and with less features but it's today's reality. WHY?
Because it is very difficult to become a Clarion programmer! How easy is to
start with Borland Delphi, PowerBuilder, Oracle Designer, CodeCharge or
other tools on the market? Just download trials free of charge and you can
learn to develop applications. And than look for a job...
The similar situations have happened when I tried to persuade customers that
I would be able to create application in Clarion quickly and in high
quality. "In Clarion?" "What it is?" "No, thanks, we need the APP in Access,
VB, Delphi, etc. [insert randomly a tool name]" were the usual replies.
I think when we like Clarion and would like to work with this excellent tool
we have to persuade Softvelocity about necessity to prepare a marketing
campaign. PLEASE, reply to this thread if you think it is necessary for our
community, for Clarion and for Softvelocity! And add please your ideas
because we have to help SV and demonstrate them we are interesting in
Clarion success (and our success as programmers)!
It was already described many times, we all know that SV has not resources
for media campaign (in TV or Top IT magazines) such as MS or Delphi or
Borland or Oracle or... BUT the marketing is something else. There is need
to prepare the General Marketing campaign.
Potential new Clarion users need:
- trial versions for downloading,
- price list on the Web,
- on-line shop or distributors in every state or country,
- free versions for IT magazines for review,
- cross-upgrade prices,
- good prices for students,
- monthly newsletter etc.
And when you already are the Clarion programmer it's not easy to find a job.
Do you know how many jobs are on the market for Clarion programmers and how
many for e.g. Oracle Designers? Believe me I know because have created the
Clarion job page (http://www.artofprogramming.net/resources/jobs.html) and
Oracle is my second specialization.
So, is the marketing necessary for SV or for Clarion programmers or for 3rd
parties? Yes, definitely for all of us!
When there is not marketing or publicity in the future, I say Clarion will
be out of the market. The old veterans will be retired and who will buy new
versions of Clarion when there are similar or better well-known tools? And
please don't tell me there are not competitors. Nobody knows Clarion and
nobody will buy an expensive unknown tool for new development - no matter
Clarion is the best RAD in the world. Have you ever seen some students to
buy Clarion? NO, because they play the game with other tools - Java, VB,
Delphi, PowerBuilder, or. (Tools, which have an evaluation/trial copy on
their Web sites or more marketing oriented companies.)
I have tried to start this kind of discussion many times and because still
less and less positions available and still less and less Clarion
programmers in the World it seems to me necessary to start it again.
Thanks for your suggestion and please don't forget I like Clarion and
therefore I'm writing. But you know Apple computer was the best as well :-(
Sincerely,
--
Alfred
http://artofprogramming.net
PS: Because dead sales-marketing News Group, jokes and war themes in the
Chat Group, Clarion6 Group mainly for EA6 participants, there is the
comp.lang.clarion the best place for this message.
Joe Evert
was they were working on a marketing campaign and we will all know it when
it comes out ("the clarion will blow").... .Still waiting.....That post got
a lot of responses..
SV needs help on the marketing that is for sure. Maybe they are waiting till
after C6 and all hell will break loose... we'll see. It almost seems like
they are affraid to market. Simple no (or very little) cost items are
neglected, I.E. full featured web site, demo downloads, on line pricing,
etc.
Clarion is still an excellent tool and I am impressed with C6, like a
diamond in the rough. So much potential but so little exposure makes it
difficult to bring credibility to the product. I'll keep using and upgrading
because it keeps me productive. I just hope they can pull it off on the long
haul. I really think they need a product like the old Personal Developer to
bring in new blood and nurse a new breed of programmers before they are all
gone to VB .Net and all the others.
Joe.
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:3e82...@news.softvelocity.com...
George Riddell
Build a better mousetrap and you'll attract mice.
Market a better mousetrap and you'll attract customers!
SV thinks their efforts are better spent making a better mousetrap.
The majority of us are better off focusing on making and marketing our own
products.
Regards,
George Riddell.
Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ) <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:3e82...@news.softvelocity.com...
Mark Riffey
Good thoughts here. Perhaps you should forward them directly to Bob
Zaunere (CEO of SV).
A lot of people dont read or no longer read the chat group, so this is
indeed a better place.
I dont have much to add at the moment. Perhaps later.
--
Mark Riffey
Granite Bear
http://www.granitebear.com
Jason S
But, yes, I mostly agree with you, when I started this job out of school, I
had never heard of Clarion. Learned on the job.
What they need to do is provide their product for free to schools so that
new programmers will have exposure to it.
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:3e82...@news.softvelocity.com...
Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)
>
> Don't tell them what you use, just create it for them.
>
If you meant "potential customers" then I have to say when they are not
brainless they ask and many times the tool is the ruling factor.
Thanks.
Alfred
Russell B. Eggen
can't find Clarion projects, I create them. In my line of business, I
cannot afford to rely on anyone outside my business to do my marketing for
me. If someone else does, then fine, a bonus. I won't change my actions.
I'd rather be cause over this, not effect.
--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:3e82...@news.softvelocity.com...
Is there any possibility to find Clarion related job?
Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)
sorry for my post, it was the last time I have tried to help Softvelocity.
Why? Because I like Clarion.
And I have not problems to find a job because I'm ORACLE DBA and SUN
Administrator.
Good Luck!
--
Alfred
http://artofprogramming.net
"Russell B. Eggen" <reg...@gte.net> wrote in
news:3e822ffa$1...@news.softvelocity.com...
Greg Scales
1) Most hits were for Clarion Auto Audio products
2) Second most hits were for Clarion Hotels
3) Clarion Pennsylvania
There were 3 hits for the Clarion language, two of them were Sterling Data
and one was Clarion Magazine. There were no hits for Soft Velocity. Clarion
is also a workshop for fantasy & Sci Fi writers (somehow this seems to fit),
bionic ear implants, a pipeline organization, and obvious musical links.
Marketing? What Marketing?
There were NO hits for, as I said, Soft Velocity, Clarion jobs, or any of
the wonderful Clarion add-on products (except, of course, Sterling). In
Google, Soft Velocity came up on page 2, Clarion Mag on page 3. I only went
through the first five pages, but no one else showed up.
If I was looking for a development tool like Clarion, how in the world would
I ever find it? Do you know how I got into Clarion? In the mid 1980's, I was
browsing around in a CompUSA store in Dallas. I was looking at development
software. On the top of the shelf ... shoved out of the way because of
non-sale, was the Clarion for Dos 3.1 System. I bought it because a system
programmer friend of mine told me that it was good for rapidly developing
DOS apps. Once I got into it, I was hooked, mainly on the language itself. I
have an enormous amount of time, energy, and money invested in this one
product. Believe me, I wish the skill were more marketable. Here in West
Texas, no one has ever even heard of it.
If it is the best development tool out there, and I honestly think it is,
all things considered, why isn't it more popular? I think because of the
following reasons:
1) Marketing - there is no marketing plan that I know of
2) Price - nowadays, many things are a bunch cheaper than Clarion
3) Documentation - although documentation has been improving over
the years, there are times that you simply CANNOT find what
you need in the help files (even if it's there!). Also there are
very
few books written about Clarion development
4) Support - while the newsgroups & Clarion Mag are great, SV itself
wants too much cottin pickin' money to support their product. The
instructional courses should be MUCH cheaper, and one ought to
be able to ask a question without it costing an arm and a leg.
5) Functionality - some of what is in Clarion is beginning to look a
bit dated on XP class machines. C6 may fix alot of this, but I
don't think they intend to fix the 16 bit IDE.
6) Portability - won't run on Linux, Unix, or other processors
From what I've read on SV's website, 3) and 6) are being addressed in C6,
and that's a good thing. In fact, I'm about ready to launch off and try it.
But just think about it, if 1) were adequately addressed, couldn't the price
in 2) come down? And wouldn't SV be able to better afford 4)?
I'm also thinkin', that maybe, with the dozens of hits on the web that have
absolutely nothing to do with developing Clarion apps, maybe, just maybe, a
name change is in order. Actually I've kinda thought this for a long time.
I had a very long discussion with a friend of mine last weekend about
converting the Clarion Language to Linux. Although we felt like we could
convert the language itself (we've written a couple of languages together in
the past), stumbling blocks might be XLIB, copyrights, and of course time.
If someone else other than SV converted the language, the IDE would develop
into a different animal as would the template language. But we limited our
discussion to just the language component itself. If Kernigan & Richie had
"sat on" C, would it have ever been popular? No. In order for the language
itself to become popular, other folks are gonna have to do compilers for it.
All these random thoughts having been said, I think if SV made a marketing
push (when C6 is ready), lowered the price, and maybe changed the name, it
would take off again.
My .02
Greg Scales
UpScale Systems
Abilene, Texas
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:3e82...@news.softvelocity.com...
Mark Riffey
> Don't be lazy and rely on someone else to do your leg work.
>
Certainly.
Alfred's concern over college-age programmers is something to think
about though. Do we care? (I havent decided<g>) Does SV care? I dunno.
Russell B. Eggen
I was not complaining about your wish to help SV, we all do (save for 2 or 3
people). It is too easy for others to mis-interpret your comments into "SV
is failing because they do not do any marketing". The evidence is
overwhelming that such comments are not based in facts.
I have heard some ideas from the SV camp about marketing, but I don't expect
any of these ideas to surface until the time is right. But I am convinced
there are plans in the works and I won't comment any further. This is SV's
call, let them finish C6 and a few other things first. Assuming C6 is the
product to be marketed.
--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:3e82...@news.softvelocity.com...
Russell,
sorry for my post, it was the last time I have tried to help Softvelocity.
Why? Because I like Clarion.
--
Alfred
http://artofprogramming.net
Russell B. Eggen
college? I can't see an SV employee doing this.
--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com
"Mark Riffey" <m...@granitebear.com> wrote in message
news:VA.0000072...@granitebear.com...
Dan Scott
De javu all over again!
Dan
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:3e82...@news.softvelocity.com...
Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)
> Alfred,
>
> I was not complaining about your wish to help SV, we all do (save for 2 or
3
> people). It is too easy for others to mis-interpret your comments into
"SV
> is failing because they do not do any marketing". The evidence is
> overwhelming that such comments are not based in facts.
>
Sorry Russel, but it is the real true that "SV is failing because they do
not do any marketing". It is not a mis-interpretation and every other kid
knows about it. I know every company is failing in some areas, it is not
problem to understand but when we have the best RAD tool why don't we help
with marketing?
>
> I have heard some ideas from the SV camp about marketing, but I don't
expect
> any of these ideas to surface until the time is right. But I am convinced
> there are plans in the works and I won't comment any further. This is
SV's
> call, let them finish C6 and a few other things first. Assuming C6 is the
> product to be marketed.
>
Good to know about it. Thanks for your "secret" ideas.
--
Alfred
http://artofprogramming.net
Mark Riffey
> That is a good target. Ever think of teaching Clarion at your local
> college?
Unfortunately I have absolutely no time for that (much less a lot of
other stuff, sadly).
Its all that much more unfortunate, since I have an in at the local
community college. Im simply not what I would consider a teacher anyhow
(Scout stuff notwithstanding, perhaps).
> I can't see an SV employee doing this.
Likewise. I think thats a bit much to ask of SV.
However, I can see SV offering an education version (or whatever) of C6
as an incentive to colleges. IMO, the place to start is community
colleges. Business programming classes would certainly benefit.
Robert Rodgers
The best marketing is free marketing. Press Releases. Are great for that.
Every
Release of C6 EA
Release of Setup Builder
Release of ClarioNet
Release of Ado Templates
Release of ...
Everytime a Bob sneezes.
should be preceded by a big press release to every computer media outlet.
It only takes a one page letter to fax. Get your name seen enough times
eventually someone will do a write up on you just to make you stop.
I have always thought that a concerted effort should be made to get clarion
used in colleges and universities. Get them young and keep them is a good
strategy. As I recall from a conversation with a TS employee a long time
ago the costs were thought to be prohibitive. But I think if an effort was
made to just market to the same 100 over and over you would start to
penetrate the market.
What ever they do don't stop. It takes something like 7 views for an
average person to have any recollection of an item that is marketed to them.
1) Don't stop.
2) Be repetitive.
3) Goto 1
rob
--
"Opinion has caused more trouble on this
little earth than plagues or earthquakes"
Voltaire
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:3e82...@news.softvelocity.com...
Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)
Jeffrey D. Kolker
fact, Gitano and Sterling Data both come up as sponsoring sites..which I'm
not really sure what that means, but they are there. "Soft Velocity" with a
space is not the right way to spell it.
hth,
Jeff
"Greg Scales" <gsc...@upscaletech.net> wrote in message
Robert Rodgers
programming tool? I wouldn't. It will take some education by SV to get
people to come on board.
rob
--
"Opinion has caused more trouble on this
little earth than plagues or earthquakes"
Voltaire
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Jeffrey D. Kolker" <je...@kolkercpa.com> wrote in message
Vernon Jay Godwin
I, from time to time, do 3rd party development. It is rare however. On the
few instances that I have done contract work it has been a constant uphill
battle to get the customer to see the power of Clarion. Basically, it comes
down to my abilities as a programmer. I know Visual C++ (C# and .NET), VB
(.NET), Delphi 5 - 7, Kylix, Pascal (traditional), Fortran - ah well,
basically all the major ones. Oh yeah, and of course Clarion. The funny
thing is, when I start talking to a prospective customer and listing the
languages available to them for development they have never even heard of
Clarion. And - they don't ask about it either.
Then begins my job. I mean, clarion isn't perfect for every project. To be
honest, it probably loses out most of the time based on "robustness." Now,
I'm not bashing Clarion. I love the language. But its getting farther and
farther behind. I've not tried out Clarion6 yet and I'm hoping that it goes
along way to resolving some of the lingering issues - but 8 years later
(win95) we still don't have a 32-bit IDE. I realize we want to keep
backward compatible, but how many customers do you have with anything older
than win95? I know, dead horse, beaten alot.
Do you have any idea how many hours I spent trying to figure out how I could
make Tabs (and even buttons) fully themeable in WinXP. Lets put it this
way - A LOT of work. (Yes, I realize the .manifest works on buttons if you
don't include icons - but that wasn't an option.)
I realize I'm going off on a tangent here. I still stand by clarion. I can
still develop something in half the time. It may not be as functional in
the end, or may not look as pretty - but that doesn't change the fact that
it still does what its meant to do - ease the flow of development tasks.
Back to the subject at hand...marketing. I can give you one good example -
the SV website. I hate to say it, but its ... well ... lacking. I don't
mean to criticize the ability of their web master - I'm sure it isn't his
sole responsibility. Matter-of-fact, the web master probably gets zero time
to maintain it. On my last contracted job I made the suggestion of using
Clarion on the project. They asked for the website. I gritted my teeth,
gave them the URL, and that was the end of that. That was all it took to
shoot Clarion down. About 95% of the time a prospective customer wants to
compare. They can go to the Visual Studio .NET site, the Delphi site
(Borland), and then onto Soft Velocity's. Impressions are everything - and
the big boys easily win out on this one. On a lighter side, at least Soft
Velocity's site doesn't do anything funny in Opera <g> (Browser of Choice)
Later,
Vernon Jay Godwin
www.kefrendesigns.com
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:3e82...@news.softvelocity.com...
Steven C. Gallafent
> about though. Do we care? (I havent decided<g>) Does SV care? I dunno.
Computer science programs aren't targeted to teaching languages. They are
teaching concepts.
(Disclaimer: To a certain extent, I'm quoting the party line here. I don't
agree with some of the rationale used in some courses that I've taken.)
As a result, not all college programs will pick this up. Many are going to
teach:
1) Java - Their starter language of choice (used to be Pascal here)
2) C - Because it's C
3) A little assembler - Because it's good to know and serves well for
architecture discussions
4) A couple of other obscure things for specific topics
For #4, consider languages used for AI, graphics, etc. Scheme is the first
one that comes to mind. (See http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/projects/scheme/
for details.)
Even some languages you would expect them to teach aren't going to be fully
covered. The database course I took covered a little SQL, but only enough to
put some theory into practice as examples. I wouldn't let someone who had
completed that 400-level class tinker with one of my triggers or even change
my database design.
I don't see a curriculum like that picking up Clarion, WinDev, or any of a
dozen other development environments "just because." I could see Clarion
possibly occupying a niche because of the templates, but not because of its
strengths for Windows and database apps.
Some professors won't even let you use it because it's not one of their
preferred choices. I used Clarion for projects in a couple of classes. One
class where it would have really made sense was an AI class, but the
professor required (yes, I asked) that we use C. That's a case where a
Clarion app would have made a lot of sense.
Of course, if he had let me use Clarion, I could have spent time on the
logic required for the final project instead of writing class code to wrap
up queues, TCP/IP communications, etc. I probably would have won the
competition. The final project was to write a program that competed against
other programs in a capture the flag tournament. It was really neat. It
would have been much neater if I had been able to put time into some of my
logic ideas instead of writing code for data structures, communications,
screen formatting, etc.
Technical schools may be another story.
Steve
--
Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy, Inc.
st...@compguy.com - http://www.compguy.com/
Jeffrey D. Kolker
to offer to educational institutions and students discounts for the program.
For example, if you go to www.journeyed.com you can see that many companies
offer their products to schools, teachers, students and substantial
discounts, and I know most of these programs are not taught in school. But,
if you get them into the hands of people who will eventually go on to become
professionals in the field, they will bring what they have learned and used
with them.
My wife (a special ed teacher) bought Adobe InDesign, GoLive, Acrobat,
LiveMotion, PhotoShop, and Illustrator (latest versions all) for $399
delivered. If she uses it, kids see it.. and become at least knowledgable
of the products.
Jeff
Mark Riffey
> Technical schools may be another story.
>
I agree, which community colleges lean often towards.
Russell B. Eggen
the fire at the moment. I would think the best time to approach both the
college and SV would be the summer.
--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com
"Mark Riffey" <m...@granitebear.com> wrote in message
news:VA.0000072...@granitebear.com...
Likewise. I think thats a bit much to ask of SV.
Russell B. Eggen
SV is doing well and expanding. This is not a failing business. That is
not in dispute therefore, SV failing because of no marketing is a myth and a
falsehood. C6 is proof. A failing business could not produce what we have
now.
I am all for anyone assisting in their own way to help SV. Word of mouth is
a very powerful testimonial.
--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:3e82...@news.softvelocity.com...
Sorry Russel, but it is the real true that "SV is failing because they do
not do any marketing". It is not a mis-interpretation and every other kid
knows about it. I know every company is failing in some areas, it is not
problem to understand but when we have the best RAD tool why don't we help
with marketing?
--
Alfred
http://artofprogramming.net
Mark Riffey
> They may have a few irons in
> the fire at the moment.
>
Ya think?<g>
Vernon Jay Godwin
I would like to add, because my previous post seemed overly vague in this
regard, that I do manage to convince a large percentage of my contract work
that clarion is the right choice. The advantage in knowing the other
languages is that I have a base to compare against. I was vague in that I
believe. I don't plan on removing Clarion from my toolbox for a very long
time. I just hope that it catches up with the other tools I have.
I must say though. If I need it to be done - clarion will do it. It may
require me to pull my hair, sacrifice a small furry animal, or bludgeon
myself repeatedly with office furniture - but it is possible. I would just
like to forego the gauntlet I must often times run in order to use clarion.
:)
Later,
Vernon Jay Godwin
www.kefrendesigns.com
"Vernon Jay Godwin" <god...@kefrendesigns.com> wrote in message
news:3e82dec6$1...@news.softvelocity.com...
Robert Lerner
>SV is doing well and expanding. This is not a failing business. That is
>not in dispute therefore, SV failing because of no marketing is a myth and a
>falsehood. C6 is proof. A failing business could not produce what we have
>now.
They may or may not be failing. A different issue is whether they
<act> like they're failing. A still different issue is whether they
act like a real business that can impress other businesses- and not
just some developers with three years to code and having the luxury of
not having to run a business. But unless you have actually seen
(audited) numbers, your "proof" makes you sound downright silly and
naive- at best. You said the same thing about TS. Have you seen their
financials?
Jerome Atchison
have seen a flurry of postings to the newsgroups about SoftVelocity's lack
of advertising and marketing. This thread is a prime example!
While I believe that SoftVelocity has a primary responsibility to its
principles to market and thereby expand it's customer base and revenues, I
also believe that the "Clarion Community" should accept some responsibility
to help promote Clarion and its benefits.
I am an avid R/C'er and I fly/build/crash model airplanes every chance I
get, and not necessarily in that order. The flying club that I belong too,
has a policy that you must be a member of the AMA - Academy Of Model
Aeronautics. The club has this policy mainly because of the insurance,
however, they also have a very active group of members that promote the
flying club to new members, which is the charter of the AMA.
The AMA's Mission Statement is:
"The Academy of Model Aeronautics is a world-class association
of modelers organized for the purpose of promotion, development, education
and advancement of modeling activities.
The Academy provides leadership, organization, competition, communication,
protection, representation, recognition, education and scientific/technical
development to modelers."
By now you are asking, what does this have to do with Clarion? Well, I
believe that the Clarion Community that I have been a silent part of for
many-many years, needs to stop complaining about the alleged lack of
marketing and do something about it.
If we continue to due nothing and depend on the staff at SoftVelocity, we
will soon find ourselves hung out to dry. I have noticed that the majority
of statements and releases and other items related to Clarion are mainly
directed at the existing Clarion developers. If we don't start enticing new
developers into our community, our community and Clarion will eventually,
shrivel-up and expire. Our ability to find Clarion related work will and
has been disappearing. Additionally, we could all stand to learn some new
tricks from the young, figuratively speaking.
I fully agree with Alfred in principle. However, we should start our own
promotion of Clarion. Now I am not saying that every one should drop what
they are working on and spend 40+ hours selling Clarion to your neighbors,
but if each of us spend just 10, 15, or even 30 minutes, once a week, doing
something related to promoting Clarion, I think the impact will be huge, and
the short and long term payoff will be un-measurable!!
_We_ have the power to make Clarion the #1 tool world wide, not
SoftVelocity. SV can help us, but can only make the product better. It is
up to us to promote it's reputation, it's benefits, and then provide success
stories to SV.
I could be wrong, but this is just my opinion. (Sorry Mr. Miller)
Jerome Atchison
Jason S
> absolutely nothing to do with developing Clarion apps, maybe, just maybe,
a
> name change is in order. Actually I've kinda thought this for a long time.
Maybe they could call it Caffeine <g>.
Jason S
How about, 15% discount if developed in Clarion because it will take 50% of
the time?
"Jerome Atchison" <jatc...@medgrup.com> wrote in message
news:3e83...@news.softvelocity.com...
Maarten
> If you meant "potential customers" then I have to say when they are not
> brainless they ask and many times the tool is the ruling factor.
Maybe it is your customers?
The biggest part of our user-base are the PU-companies.
They present me with a problem and ask me for a solution,
which they get quickly and solid. Some of them ask me in
which language it is written:
"Clarion?....? Hmm it works well, doesn't it".
They don't care less. What they do care about it our understanding
and quick responses to their questions/problems.
I.o.w. Our customers care about a software partner who knows
what he's talking about and thinking with/for them to find
proper solutions to solve their problems (rapidly).
(the tag line of our company is 'Software Solutions')
They _do_ ask if we can make it for Oracle or Web-enabled
and, when the answer is 'Yes', they are happy again.
--
Best regards,
Maarten
CDD3.1, C5EEb - ABC & C5.5.08EE
Certainly Clarion Developer
"I know what I know but I do not know what you don't know"
Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)
And to your suggestions: when you are the only one potential supplier
bidding a new solution, you're right there isn't problem to get the project
irrespective of tool used. But when there are more competitors you cannot
win with Clarion because when they already have an IT solution (in an other
language) they prefer to have consistent environment and other supplier
wins.
I'm speaking about "clever" companies which know and have own IT divisions
responsible for consistent environment, have DBA's, team of Java
programmers, .NET specialists and looking for a supplier of an other
application. And there you cannot win.
But that's an other topic...
Best Regards!
--
Alfred
http://artofprogramming.net
"Maarten" <maar...@planet.nl> wrote in
news:3e8358b7$1...@news.softvelocity.com...
Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)
Thanks for all suggestions, tips and ideas, especially for Russ' "secret"
information <vbg>. I think everything has already been said. We know that SV
has marketing plans and we can wait for better information in the near
future when C6 is released.
Nobody is agains the first ideas that the potential new Clarion users need:
- trial versions for downloading,
- price list on the Web,
- on-line shop or distributors in every state or country,
- free versions for IT magazines for review,
- cross-upgrade prices,
- good prices for students,
- monthly newsletter etc.
So, we can believe when time is here we see SV's aproach. And now, please
stop the discussion about it and back to work. Where is my beer? Ahh, here
<bg>
Thanks and Good Luck to all!
--
Alfred
http://artofprogramming.net
Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)
Thanks for all suggestions, tips and ideas, especially for Russ' "secret"
information <vbg>. I think everything has already been said. We know that SV
has marketing plans and we can wait for better information in the near
future when C6 is released.
Nobody is against the first ideas that the potential new Clarion users need:
- trial versions for downloading,
- price list on the Web,
- on-line shop or distributors in every state or country,
- free versions for IT magazines for review,
- cross-upgrade prices,
- good prices for students,
- monthly newsletter etc.
So, we can believe when time is here we see SV's approach. And now, please
stop the discussion about it and back to work. Where is my beer? Aha, here
it's <bg>
Russell B. Eggen
--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com
"Robert Lerner" <rle...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:gmc68v4tb4bmjdeve...@4ax.com...
Russ,
Russell B. Eggen
BTW - Bernie does R/Cing, I would like to (just have not made the time).
--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com
"Jerome Atchison" <jatc...@medgrup.com> wrote in message
news:3e83...@news.softvelocity.com...
_We_ have the power to make Clarion the #1 tool world wide, not
SoftVelocity. SV can help us, but can only make the product better. It is
up to us to promote it's reputation, it's benefits, and then provide success
stories to SV.
Jerome Atchison
Robert Lerner
Come on Russ- that you like EA and believe it portends well for the
future C6 is hardly a fact. So what facts are you talking about?
Hey Russ, I know you hate my posts to you. So for once, stop being so
slippery, answer me specifically, and I'll move on. Give me a couple
of real facts that have impressed you in the last three years about
SV's noteworthy accomplishments. My feeling is that they've been in
business three years, started out with a great product, and did
amazingly little with it, the majority of its user base, and its own
business presence. Where am I wrong?
Michael Gould
In the fact that you think that you understand what is going on at all with
Clarion. You don't.. If I read the messages here, you didn't even buy into
the Early Access program, so you have no idea what is going on with the
product, with SV, etc.
Those that have access to the EA program and it's newsgroups will for the
most part reflect that SV has been working their butts off on C6 and has
made great strides with the product. The debug of issues has gone very well
as people are required if possible to submit reproducable bug reports. The
developers have been active in their various areas working with the reports
and with the individual who made the report if additional data is needed.
Since I doubt your privy to the SV business plan, or it's customer base, I
doubt seriously that you can correctly reflect on the reality of the
situation. Like the old saying goes.. assumptions are like assholes,
everyone has one and very few are correct.. ..
Michael Gould
"Robert Lerner" <rle...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:60v68v85kp9ofghnv...@4ax.com...
Mark Riffey
Ill preface my comments by saying that Im not known for putting
lipstick on a donkey.
The responsiveness that Ive seen from SV in the EA NGs has been of the
type that I expect from a vendor, rather than the historical treatment
ala TS. I hope it continues after C6 goes gold.
My use of C6EA hasnt been as widespread as Id like due to the initial
delay (I had a short window of opportunity) and my schedule in the
first quarter, but what I have seen of it has been positive to date.
A lot of persnickety people are in the EA NGs. There have been very few
negatives coming out of them and these are not run of the mill yes men
that Im referring to.
Those arent facts, those are opinions<g>. Youll have to make your own
once c6 is released and SV has their (IMO, last) chance to prove they
are for real.
Arnor Baldvinsson
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:23:18 MST, Mark Riffey <m...@granitebear.com>
wrote:
>The responsiveness that Ive seen from SV in the EA NGs has been of the
>type that I expect from a vendor, rather than the historical treatment
>ala TS. I hope it continues after C6 goes gold.
I totally agree. So far my impression is that they are working very
hard on getting this release rock stable. They listen to developers
and fix things right away with very little wear on our asbestos
protective gear that often seemed like standard dresscode with TS<g>
Best regards,
Arnór Baldvinsson
Icetips Software
San Antonio, Texas, USA
www.icetips.com
ar...@icetips.com
Subscribe to information from Icetips.com:
http://www.icetips.com/getnotificationinfo.htm
Russell B. Eggen
I don't mind any post that is thought out and then voiced, even if contrary
to my own. I don't respect any post that is based on emotion and refuses to
adjust because of a conclusion arrived years ago. Data changes over time.
--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com
"Robert Lerner" <rle...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:60v68v85kp9ofghnv...@4ax.com...
Robert Lerner
memory problem. But I asked Russ for any of the "facts" he professes
to have (excluding his opinion regarding C6 prospects based on EA).
And then you come back with C6/EA stuff. The reality I focus on is
three years of amazingly little benefit to the user base or real
business accomplishment. And you come back with idiotic stuff about my
knowledge of their business plan or customer base. Mike, neither you
or I (or even Russ) know what the future will bring. But the past is
real and there for everyone to see. And in my opinion, based on that
past, they've been duds. I have come to believe that the people you
told me bid for CW, but lost out to SV, would have done a better job
in every business way.
Robert Lerner
>... because of a conclusion arrived years ago. Data changes over time.
Russ, you're a b....... artist. I <never> expressed anything negative
about SV a few years ago. Only positive stuff.
And I notice you can't point out a single "fact". Data does change
over time- but you sure as hell don't. Replace "SV" for "TS", and
"Version 6" for "Version 5", and your 4 year old posts precisely mimic
your current posts.
Ron Schofield
Robert Lerner wrote:
> >... because of a conclusion arrived years ago. Data changes over time.
>
> Russ, you're a b....... artist. I <never> expressed anything negative
> about SV a few years ago. Only positive stuff.
>
Robert,
To quote yourself..
"Just give me a couple of real facts that have impressed you in the last
three years about SV's noteworthy accomplishments. My feeling is that
they've been in business three years, started out with a great product, and
did amazingly little with it, the majority of its user base, and its own
business presence. Where am I wrong?"
You are wrong as just a couple of previous posts ago you gave a negative
impression about SV which if you actually were part of the EA program or
actually talked or deal with SV, you would know is not close to what you are
stating.
Well you did say "feelings" which has nothing to do with facts or truths,
I'll give you that much. But I don't rely on "feelings".
Wait until c6 is out (which will be SV's true coming out party).
Ron
Russell B. Eggen
--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com
"Robert Lerner" <rle...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:s6478v0dfb2d88atp...@4ax.com...
Robert Lerner
<reg...@gte.net> wrote:
>Selective amnesia again, amigo? <vbg>
No- a fact. Why don't you do one of your searches and find a single
negative posting made a few years ago. But you won't. So I repeat- you
are a pure, unadulterated BS artist.
Andrew Guidroz II
I don't find that Topspeed was so bad in their alpha and beta phases either.
I think the main difference is that SV is a lot more open in how many folks
and who gets to participate.
5 years ago, when I said, "Hey ... if you post a bug, they'll fix it", I was
considered a lap dog. And I posted a lot of bugs. And I got most of them,
if not all, fixed.
During EA, after SV missed their first target date of the initial release
and my schedule got too busy, I purposely waited for others to post most of
the bugs I saw. I figured it was time for other, new folks with more energy
to participate.
The best part of the EA phase here has been the fact that the folks who,
even given the opportunity to participate in getting their bugs fixed, won't
participate are actually shown for exactly what they really are.
--
- Andrew Guidroz II (GeeTroze)
"Ron Schofield" <r...@schofieldcomputer.com> wrote in message
news:3E839482...@schofieldcomputer.com...
Robert Lerner
<r...@schofieldcomputer.com> wrote:
>
>
>You are wrong as just a couple of previous posts ago you gave a negative
>impression about SV which if you actually were part of the EA program or
>actually talked or deal with SV, you would know is not close to what you are
>stating.
>Well you did say "feelings" which has nothing to do with facts or truths,
>I'll give you that much. But I don't rely on "feelings".
>Wait until c6 is out (which will be SV's true coming out party).
>
>Ron
Ron, Russ said I was negative about SV years ago. That simply is not
true and he knows it. I have only come to be negative after 3 years
of, in my opinion, not delivering much product or
business-system/presence/support wise. As to C6, my fear is that even
if a great product, they have waited too long, lost too many users,
and don't have the demonstrable business skills or infrastructure to
make it work.
But, believe it or not, I hope I'm wrong.
Robert Lerner
What they might be are developers who would like to participate, but
are ineligible based on SV's requirements. Or developers who don't
want to pay to do SV's QA work.
Ron Schofield
Robert Lerner wrote:
Again, you have no facts to back that up. And you give a negative impression to
what others who are involved with SV know is not true. Best to keep your internal
negitive thoughts to yourself. They are not helping.
Ron
Jeffrey D. Kolker
from what I have seen in the number of third party utilities vendors, there
must be an increase in users to support the development of said utilities.
I can remember when there was very little in the way of third party support.
I would think that this wouldn't happen in a declining market of users....
jeff
"Robert Lerner" <rle...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ol678vkt2s08cm3qm...@4ax.com...
Russell B. Eggen
--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com
"Robert Lerner" <rle...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:cc678v4e00l9v14hl...@4ax.com...
Robert Lerner
>Again, you have no facts to back that up. And you give a negative impression to
>what others who are involved with SV know is not true. Best to keep your internal
>negitive thoughts to yourself. They are not helping.
Ron,
Like you, I'm getting bored with this thread. So let me end with this.
My "fact" is the (demonstrable) 3-year dearth of praiseworthy business
or delivered-CW accomplishments. If there's something you can point to
I'd love to hear it. I really would.
Robert Lerner
>from what I have seen in the number of third party utilities vendors, there
>must be an increase in users to support the development of said utilities.
>I can remember when there was very little in the way of third party support.
>I would think that this wouldn't happen in a declining market of users....
That's interesting- my guess would be that there are way fewer <truly
active> third party vendors now than five or more years ago. There are
a lot of products out there, but many aren't seriously serviced or
updated. There are a lot of one-product wonders out there. I would
guess that very few vendors make serious money from the CW market.
Having said that, I should add that I believe it's certain well-known
third party vendors, not the CW vendor, that has saved CW and lead the
way in terms of sound business practices.
Robert Lerner
<reg...@gte.net> wrote:
>Will this one do? <bg>
What "one" are you referring to?
Ron Schofield
How about dealing with facts..
Robert Lerner wrote:
> >Just curious..but you said they have have lost too many customers....but
> >from what I have seen in the number of third party utilities vendors, there
> >must be an increase in users to support the development of said utilities.
> >I can remember when there was very little in the way of third party support.
> >I would think that this wouldn't happen in a declining market of users....
>
> That's interesting- my guess
your GUESS
> would be that there are way fewer <truly
> active> third party vendors now than five or more years ago. There are
> a lot of products out there, but many aren't seriously serviced or
> updated.
Proof of that? I see many products and announcements of updates and I have not
seen many complaints about a product not being supported.
> There are a lot of one-product wonders out there. I would
> guess
would GUESS
> that very few vendors make serious money from the CW market.
> Having said that, I should add that I believe
I believe..
> it's certain well-known
> third party vendors, not the CW vendor, that has saved CW and lead the
> way in terms of sound business practices.
How about stop guessing?
Steve Parker
hectic -- no more build-a-day.
Fewer arguments, more results. Get a real sense of going
for quality.
Steve Parker
--------------------------------------------------
kb and download center at:
www.par2.com
KB: http://www.par2.com/cws/c5launch.dll/FAQS/THEFAQS.exe.0
--------------------------------------------------
"The improbable, we do. The impossible takes a bit longer."
Jeffrey D. Kolker
years) is longer than it has ever been. I program sporadically... my other
job keeps me pretty busy most of the time. Each time I come back the list
is longer... more toys to buy ;)
Jeff :)
"Ron Schofield" <r...@schofieldcomputer.com> wrote in message
news:3E83AC81...@schofieldcomputer.com...
Steve Parker
You don't remember me, more than once, publicly admonishing you
for your ... uh, ineffective way of expressing yourself? You were not
only negative but unpleasantly so. I even had you twit filtered for a
a year or so.
You never saw it that way; you just felt you were telling it like it
is ... remember our telecon a couple of years ago?
Above, you say you were not negative and in the next sentence
say you were: ", Russ said I was negative about SV years ago.
[1] That simply is not true and he knows it. I have only [2] come to be
negative after 3 years".
Arnor Baldvinsson
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:56:52 -0500, Robert Lerner
<rle...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>What they might be are developers who would like to participate, but
>are ineligible based on SV's requirements. Or developers who don't
>want to pay to do SV's QA work.
I don't think there was any requirements except pay for the EA, at
least I don't know of any. The only requirement for me was my credit
card;) Someone has to do the QA and IMO the more that are involved in
that, the better. SV seems to have a pretty good QA system in place
before the C6EA releases.
Bruce Johnson
departments.
Cheers
Bruce
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:3e8364ad$1...@news.softvelocity.com...
> Thanks Maarten for your reply. Could I ask what are "PU-companies"?
>
> And to your suggestions: when you are the only one potential supplier
> bidding a new solution, you're right there isn't problem to get the
project
> irrespective of tool used. But when there are more competitors you cannot
> win with Clarion because when they already have an IT solution (in an
other
> language) they prefer to have consistent environment and other supplier
> wins.
>
> I'm speaking about "clever" companies which know and have own IT divisions
> responsible for consistent environment, have DBA's, team of Java
> programmers, .NET specialists and looking for a supplier of an other
> application. And there you cannot win.
>
> But that's an other topic...
>
>
> Best Regards!
> --
> Alfred
> http://artofprogramming.net
>
>
>
> "Maarten" <maar...@planet.nl> wrote in
> news:3e8358b7$1...@news.softvelocity.com...
> > Hi Alfred,
> >
> > > If you meant "potential customers" then I have to say when they are
not
> > > brainless they ask and many times the tool is the ruling factor.
> > Maybe it is your customers?
> > The biggest part of our user-base are the PU-companies.
> > They present me with a problem and ask me for a solution,
> > which they get quickly and solid. Some of them ask me in
> > which language it is written:
> > "Clarion?....? Hmm it works well, doesn't it".
> > They don't care less. What they do care about it our understanding
> > and quick responses to their questions/problems.
> > I.o.w. Our customers care about a software partner who knows
> > what he's talking about and thinking with/for them to find
> > proper solutions to solve their problems (rapidly).
> > (the tag line of our company is 'Software Solutions')
> > They _do_ ask if we can make it for Oracle or Web-enabled
> > and, when the answer is 'Yes', they are happy again.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Maarten
> > CDD3.1, C5EEb - ABC & C5.5.08EE
> > Certainly Clarion Developer
> >
> > "I know what I know but I do not know what you don't know"
> >
> >
>
>
Robert Lerner
>I don't think there was any requirements
I believe SV wanted technically top, not mid, level developers.
Regards,
Bob
Robert Lerner
useless Clarion Accessories Partners program).
Ron Schofield
Did you just ignore Jeff's post? How about checking those that sell
third party tools or doing some reseach on your own before speaking out.
Ron
Robert Lerner
>I do KNOW the list at ClarionShop (which is new within the last three-four
>years) is longer than it has ever been.
But my point is that many of those companies have effectively stopped
product development.
Ron Schofield
You have talked to them all? What are their plans for C6?
Robert Lerner
I swear- I don't understand what you're saying. Let me try this again.
Russ is saying I have been negative about SV starting many years ago.
I said he is BSing- I started being negative relatively recently- only
when SV had a long and undistinguished track record. In fact, I was
quite complementary during SV's early life when they showed some
promise.
Back to the twit filter!
Robert Lerner
<r...@schofieldcomputer.com> wrote:
>Robert,
>
> You have talked to them all? What are their plans for C6?
You think it's <likely> that companies that skipped version 5.5 (or
even earlier versions), and have effectively disappeared from the
community, will resurrect themselves in C6? Is that your considered
judgment? Swell thinking.
Jeff Mason
to market the product by more than the simplest methods.
I have been writing in Clarion since 89, indesperced with C and Delphi. Not
one headhunter (in about 50) during contract hunting was aware of the
product.
Jeff Mason
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:3e82...@news.softvelocity.com...
> You could ask what's that got to do with me? So see other questions:
>
> Is there any possibility to find Clarion related job? Is there any future
> for us - Clarion programmers - without marketing and publicity support of
> Softvelocity?
>
> I tried to persuade many times my bosses, colleagues and friends about the
> excellent capabilities of Clarion but they have always used other tools -
> maybe more expensive and with less features but it's today's reality. WHY?
>
> Because it is very difficult to become a Clarion programmer! How easy is
to
> start with Borland Delphi, PowerBuilder, Oracle Designer, CodeCharge or
> other tools on the market? Just download trials free of charge and you can
> learn to develop applications. And than look for a job...
>
> The similar situations have happened when I tried to persuade customers
that
> I would be able to create application in Clarion quickly and in high
> quality. "In Clarion?" "What it is?" "No, thanks, we need the APP in
Access,
> VB, Delphi, etc. [insert randomly a tool name]" were the usual replies.
>
> I think when we like Clarion and would like to work with this excellent
tool
> we have to persuade Softvelocity about necessity to prepare a marketing
> campaign. PLEASE, reply to this thread if you think it is necessary for
our
> community, for Clarion and for Softvelocity! And add please your ideas
> because we have to help SV and demonstrate them we are interesting in
> Clarion success (and our success as programmers)!
>
> It was already described many times, we all know that SV has not resources
> for media campaign (in TV or Top IT magazines) such as MS or Delphi or
> Borland or Oracle or... BUT the marketing is something else. There is need
> to prepare the General Marketing campaign.
>
> Potential new Clarion users need:
> - trial versions for downloading,
> - price list on the Web,
> - on-line shop or distributors in every state or country,
> - free versions for IT magazines for review,
> - cross-upgrade prices,
> - good prices for students,
> - monthly newsletter etc.
>
> And when you already are the Clarion programmer it's not easy to find a
job.
> Do you know how many jobs are on the market for Clarion programmers and
how
> many for e.g. Oracle Designers? Believe me I know because have created the
> Clarion job page (http://www.artofprogramming.net/resources/jobs.html) and
> Oracle is my second specialization.
>
>
> So, is the marketing necessary for SV or for Clarion programmers or for
3rd
> parties? Yes, definitely for all of us!
>
> When there is not marketing or publicity in the future, I say Clarion will
> be out of the market. The old veterans will be retired and who will buy
new
> versions of Clarion when there are similar or better well-known tools? And
> please don't tell me there are not competitors. Nobody knows Clarion and
> nobody will buy an expensive unknown tool for new development - no matter
> Clarion is the best RAD in the world. Have you ever seen some students to
> buy Clarion? NO, because they play the game with other tools - Java, VB,
> Delphi, PowerBuilder, or. (Tools, which have an evaluation/trial copy on
> their Web sites or more marketing oriented companies.)
>
> I have tried to start this kind of discussion many times and because still
> less and less positions available and still less and less Clarion
> programmers in the World it seems to me necessary to start it again.
>
> Thanks for your suggestion and please don't forget I like Clarion and
> therefore I'm writing. But you know Apple computer was the best as well
:-(
>
>
> Sincerely,
> --
> Alfred
> http://artofprogramming.net
>
> PS: Because dead sales-marketing News Group, jokes and war themes in the
> Chat Group, Clarion6 Group mainly for EA6 participants, there is the
> comp.lang.clarion the best place for this message.
>
>
>
>
>
Jeffrey D. Kolker
companies come...companies go. Its the nature of things and I'm sure it
will always be so. But as some have left, new ones have shown up. Ingasoft
and SealSoft certainly have come on quite well, and they haven't been around
for very long. ThinkData is another new one. Just a couple of examples.
But I also do know of some that have seemed to have slipped quietly away.
(won't mention any names just in case I am wrong). However, the list of
current companies making templates is more than it use to be.
I remember when there were only very few choices of what one could buy for
CW. I'm just glad that has changed.
I also remember the days of the Clarion 3 for DOS fiasco.... lol . Compared
to then, the situation of today's Clarion community is much much better.....
Jeff
"Robert Lerner" <rle...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3dk78v8gcd05c7t09...@4ax.com...
Robert Lerner
I don't disagree. They, Capesoft, Iceptips and some others are
fabulous- both from a products-offered perspective and business
presence perspective. But my main point, really, is about SV and how
little they have done in three years. Even in terms of supporting the
very firms you mention- they have done diddly doo. I said it before,
and I'll say it again- I think it is firms like these that have kept
CW alive- not SV. Interestingly, they all seem to have one thing in
common. They affirmatively try to bond with their customers. SV
doesn't even do that.
Robert Lerner
> Iceptips
That should not have been Iceptips or IceQtips (marketers of chilly
ear cleaners). It should have been Icetips (developers of Laila
Arnorsdottir)
Maarten
>Could I ask what are "PU-companies"?
Public Utilities (gas, water, electricity, cable etc.)
>But when there are more competitors you cannot win with
> Clarion because when they already have an IT solution
> (in an other language)
Just last week we had to proof ourself against the competition.
We demo'd in the morning, they demo'd in the afternoon.
We won, simply because we have a better product ;)
They didn't ask which language we used (only afterwards
on a general background survey). They do wanted to know
if it could run against an Oralce backend. When that was true,
they didn't care about the language anymore because they
will always be able to access their data.
Ravage
I'm 18 and from switzerland. I started with programming with 14 for my own,
but a year ago I've first seen Clarion when I started my practise.
Now I'm in an apprenticeship for 4 years where I have to learn Java in
school. But even our programmer teachers never have heard about Clarion or
Softvelocity.
I really don't know how popular Clarion in the US is, but I think in Europe
and especially in Switzerland it is completly unknown. In our little country
of about 7 Mio. people there are perhaps two, perhaps even 3 or maximum 5
companies (or private programmer) who use Clarion inclusive our company!!!
I think there have to be ways which Softvelocity should go to increase the
popularity of Clarion, for their own future.
But I think Clarion wouldn't die so fast, cause as you see through me, there
are always some (but unfortunately not very much) new users.
Regards
Ravage
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)
could I ask, when you have experience with CW + Oracle and your company is
able to win because better products in Clarion:
What is the advantage to use Clarion solution against an Oracle Designer
generated application? What is better? Is there only time-line to generate a
prototype in Clarion the critical success factor? Are you able to create in
Clarion an efficient APP for Oracle without necessity to manually coding
PL-SQL procedures, Views or Temporary tables on the backend?
From Oracle Designer you are able to generate from one source project
(Database Schema) e.g. Mobile APP, Web APP for all browsers (Linux as well)
or Win APP,...with all stored procedures and triggers automatically.
Thanks for your reply. Your tips will be very appreciated because I would
need it for my next competition.
--
Alfred
http://artofprogramming.net
"Maarten" <maar...@planet.nl> wrote in
news:3e83...@news.softvelocity.com...
> Hi Alfred,
Arnor Baldvinsson
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 23:07:21 -0500, Robert Lerner
<rle...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I believe SV wanted technically top, not mid, level developers.
Hmm... I'm not sure I would have qualified for that one<g> I think
the main objective was to get people who would actually do testing and
report bugs back in a clear, concise manner, and were able to back up
their reports with samples, demonstrations and logical arguments pro
and con. But I don't think that there was any kind of selection made
of those who got to buy into the EA, except the validity of the credit
card<g> All in all, I think SV got a broad enough audience in the EA
to do a really good job on the gold version.
Marc Bovet
They are some Clarion programmers in Switzerland :-)
Here is Neuchâtel we are 5 people to developp with Clarion. In the french
part of our so little country ( :-) ) I think we are about ten people.
I'dont know
about the german or italian part .
Tschüss.
Regards,
Marc
"Ravage" <rav...@bluewin.ch> a écrit dans le message de news:
3e84...@news.softvelocity.com...
Arnor Baldvinsson
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 23:25:08 -0500, Robert Lerner
<rle...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>But my point is that many of those companies have effectively stopped
>product development.
No. When going through the ClarionShop list, I see that MOST of these
companies are VERY actively developing their products. I'll name a
few in no particular order and I _KNOW_ I'm leaving some out:
Capesoft, Ingasoft, Solid Software, Klarisoft, Icetips, Gitano,
Sterling Data, Solace Software, Tracker Software, RadVenture, SealSoft
- all of these companies are continuously coming out with new products
and updating older ones. Some of the products are mature products
that don't need much development so they tend to stay quiet. That
doesn't mean that they aren't valuable solutions or that they are not
selling.
As for no 5.5 versions of some, some products don't NEED a specific
5.5 version. Several of our products are 100% compatible with C4, C5,
C5.5 and C6 without any modifications or any special versions. I
could have developed them for C4 and they'd still be the same and
function the same way in C6.
Robert Lerner
Actually, your "most" and my "many" are not mutually exclusive. I
guess my real point is that the state of the third party market is
only minimally correlated with SV's current
health, and not correlated (at best) or inversely correlated (at
worse) with SV's effectiveness.
Steve Parker
5.5 version.
Also, CLACOM. The 5.0 version works in 5.5 unmodified.
Rick Smith
<reg...@gte.net> wrote:
>Word of mouth is a very powerful testimonial.
Yes it is. But many people assume incorrectly that marketing has to
cost significant money. It doesn't. It would cost SV a 37 cent stamp
(or a fax) to send a press release to the trade press. They might
also want to send some beta copies of C6. Nicholas Petreley (at Info
World) used to be a *strong* Clarion proponent. He's written about it
in the past and gave some excellent reviews. Peter Coffee at PC Week
has done the same. Did SV keep these contacts alive at the
publications and with the journalists (in case they've moved on to
other publications)? I know you're not necessarily in a position to
know that but as you can see, the cost to SV would be minimal.
Rick Smith
>--
>Russ Eggen
>www.radfusion.com
>
>
>"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
>news:3e82...@news.softvelocity.com...
>
>
>Sorry Russel, but it is the real true that "SV is failing because they do
>not do any marketing". It is not a mis-interpretation and every other kid
>knows about it. I know every company is failing in some areas, it is not
>problem to understand but when we have the best RAD tool why don't we help
>with marketing?
Robert Lerner
You need to better be able to step back and look at the Gestalt of
this thread. By any reasonable measure, Kenny long, long ago stopped
both developing for CW and participating in these groups. This
actually supports my contention that the third-party market does not
correlate with either SV effectiveness or health. If it translates to
anything, it translates to the pre-SV power of CW. I doubt that was
your intention, but thanks anyway.
Jan K. van Dalen
Clarion is great but ... is not the only one.
"ClarionApprentice" <jcu...@nerc.com> wrote in message
news:659d2371.03032...@posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> As a newbie to the Clarion community, I'm concerned about SV's future.
> Clarion is the only language I've been programming in since I
> graduated from college six months ago.
>
> I constantly stuggle to learn Clarion--poor documentation, weak
> examples*, but an awesome language. I often find myself looking for a
> template to fill a problem or buying a subscription.
>
> In my opinion, the Open Source movement is a very big factor in
> whether Clarion will be adopted by the next generation of programmers
> and whether SV will survive. Yeah, I know there is a Clarion Open
> Source movement; but nothing to rival what is going on elsewhere--by a
> long shot. Open Source Java classes can do many things that 3rd-Party
> Clarion templates can do for FREE.
>
> What percentage of clarion programmers are writing Clarion classes
> with the idea in mind of sharing it with everyone else in the
> community? Doesn't every Clarion programmer write a Clarion program
> from scratch? Specifically, when you write a Clarion program, how
> much code do use use from a fellow programmer in the Clarion community
> (not including code generated from a purchased template)? In Open
> Source Java projects, I can find about half the things that 3rd-party
> Clarion templates can do--for FREE.
>
> Being a broke graduate, $2100 is awefully steep to cough up. Last
> fall, I bought Visual Studio .NET Enterprise Architect on Ebay for
> $730--even that's way overpriced (in my opinion). Come on, just go to
> download.com; you can find all the programming tools you need to make
> a living--for FREE.
>
> Well, that's just my 2 cents. Having said all that, I plan to keep
> using Clarion for the moment. I just hope that the time I've invested
> into learning Clarion pays off.
>
> --ClarionApprentice
>
> *I hate typing out an example in the docs just to find that it doesn't
> compile. Like everyone in this whole NG, I'm always getting error
> messages that I don't understand. When a compile-time error pops up
> in the Clarion IDE, I little message should say "Go FISH!" and then
> comp.lang.clarion should pop up.
gary shank
Am I a Clarion Programer?
I work in a school district print shop and ran the front desk.
Back in the Dos days. Our print shop bought a software package that
was
written in Clarion. I did some looking and bought my first clarion
Professional.
program. Wrote some utility programs to make my job eaiser.
Then upgraded to the full version of clarion and rewrote the program.
10 years later, The program is in C5 with lots of third party
enhancements and
Help from News groups it runs (trouble free )on our server and there
are ten stations.
The Information Technologies Dept took over the print shop. I thought
they would
see a working program (in Clarion) and want to see what Clarion could
do.
My boss wanted the tables exported to excel. ( thank you Easy Excel)
and on the fly reports ( thank you list and label )
Lots of outside factors not Clarion related. Our Shop is being turned
into
a Xerox in shop plant and My boss knows how to write Access programs.
So He bought a printshop program writen in access.
I am going to be let go the end of June.
Is there any possibility in becomeing a Clarion Progammer?
Yes.
Is this a Success story.
YES!! Using learn as you go..The program went from a single machine,
to a
network, with ten stations, Had a special window for our Handicaped
shipping
clerk. Moved to Windows and If they had encoureged me.( I also have
C55)
on to the web.
gary
Ron Schofield
"Jan K. van Dalen" wrote:
> Do me a favor, never "marry" to a single tool. Go and start learning .NET
>
Never "marry" to a single language. If that tool can do many languages, that's
fine. Clarion, CodeCharge & Visual.NET are the same tool but can generate
different languages.
Russell B. Eggen
3rd party market? Amazing.
--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com
"Robert Lerner" <rle...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:uct88vs9ll8gui88v...@4ax.com...
Kenny long, long ago stopped
both developing for CW and participating in these groups. This
actually supports my contention that the third-party market does not
correlate with either SV effectiveness or health. .
Russell B. Eggen
Irrelevant. We can't possibly know *at this time* if SV wants a review of
what they have. I think it would be safe as Clarion never got a bad review.
Seeing how SV is currently ignoring the calendar and looking at results, I
would guess they would want a review when C6 is completed.
Bottom line - money has nothing to do with marketing the product at this
time. I think it would be more of having something ready to market that
would be the best ROI. 5.5 is not it, or we'd might get wind of something
by now. C6 is far improved (despite being incomplete), so I am guessing C6
is a better ROI.
And do we know for a fact that SV has not talked with the Petreley's and
Coffee's of the world?
--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com
"Rick Smith" <ri...@netguerrilla.org> wrote in message
news:6up88vs6tk4r9ohfv...@4ax.com...
Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)
DO YOU KNOW for a fact that SV has talked with the guys? I know, they "have
plans" for it! UNDERSTAND please, that this discussion is about IDEAS and
SUGGESTIONS and that we all know there has to be first the finished product
(C6).
And the question is how much will be the "review" version of Clarion <bg>.
Cheers,
--
Alfred
http://artofprogramming.net
"Russell B. Eggen" <reg...@gte.net> wrote in
news:3e8494e5$1...@news.softvelocity.com...
Robert Lerner
>3rd party market? Amazing.
Thank you.
Robert Lerner
>Bottom line - money has nothing to do with marketing the product at this
>time. I think it would be more of having something ready to market that
>would be the best ROI. 5.5 is not it, or we'd might get wind of something
>by now.
Looks like ole Russ has completely turned tail on his 5.5 remarks in
years past re. the value of 5.5.
"Money has nothing to do with it". You've completely lost it, Russ,
with that comment. What do you suppose they're doing with all their
money- it's certainly not building a business structure.
Arnor Baldvinsson
The third party market and the language vendor are IMO very tightly
related, for better or worse<g> Without a healthy third party market,
SV would have to supply everything in the product and there is no
language vendors that can do that, none! If they didn't people
wouldn't buy it because of limitations. Without a healthy SV, the
third party market is simply dead in the water.
What I have seen in the past year and a half since I started doing
third party tools is a HUGE increase in third party activity. Focus
has changed and products and companies come and go, but the force
behind it is MUCH more than it was two years ago. When I started, lot
of people felt that the third party market was dead, it was not worth
pursuing, nobody would buy anything, etc, etc, etc. Usual stuff. If
anyone has, we have proved the naysayers dead wrong on this issue. I
think that our success sparked a bit of renewed interest and hope in
the third party Clarion market. Maybe we had nothing to do with it,
but it's not a bad thought<g>
Greg Scales
If they're gonna can Clarion for Access (mistake), then maybe you can talk
'em out of the license and won't have to make that big investment in
puchasing Clarion (unless you already did(.
Greg
"gary shank" <gsh...@pps.k12.or.us> wrote in message
news:f79257ce.03032...@posting.google.com...
Maarten
> when you have experience with CW + Oracle
I didn't state any experience in Oracle;)
The customer asked: 'Can it be run against an Oracle
backend' and the answer was/is: 'Yes, it can'.
For the record: Our demo was with the TPS-version.
> your company is able to win because better products in Clarion:
It is the front-end that the customer/user get's to deal with.
The customer/user don't know/don't care where/how the data
is stored, as long as they are able to access it (via the front-end).
The IT-department is responsible for storage and want to know.
Also, at a higher level, there might be plans to integrate 'our'
data with their other systems. When their other systems use an
Oracle backend and we can supply a version of our program
that uses an Oracle backend, the customer is happy because he
knows that he can integrate both data-sets (with or without our
help).
> What is the advantage to use Clarion solution against an Oracle Designer
> generated application? What is better?
I cannot answer that question because I've never worked with
Oracle Designer.
> Are you able to create in Clarion an efficient APP for Oracle without necessity
> to manually coding PL-SQL procedures, Views or Temporary tables on the backend?
Honestly?<g> No.
I hear that you can come a great way with CSS or CHT.
I am/was writing an app for Oracle and had to fight many battles.
I can only tell you that I didn't win them all<g>
This is also due to my little experience with Oracle / SQL.
I wrote triggers to ensure the RI of my database. The customers
have only one reason for an Oracle app: so they can mess with
my data. That's why I put the RI in the backend and not in Clarion.
In order to make my app true c/s, I was about to write stored
procedures. But at that time the project was stopped.
> From Oracle Designer you are able to generate from one source project
> (Database Schema) e.g. Mobile APP, Web APP for all browsers (Linux as well)
> or Win APP,...with all stored procedures and triggers automatically.
Is it possible to combine this with Clarion?
E.g. let Oracle Designer generate the bulk nessecary
in the backend and still use Clarion as the frontend ?
--
Best regards,
Maarten
CDD3.1, C5EEb - ABC & C5.5.08EE
Certainly Clarion Developer
"I know what I know but I do not know what you don't know"
Robert Lerner
If someone is developing a CW app, and has a need for something CW
doesn't do, why would they consider SV's viability? In fact, I would
argue that if it <is> considered, SV concerns would make existing
developers <more likely> to buy rather than less. That's because they
don't want to take the time to learn new things about CW or develop
their own reusable code. They would want the quickest way to implement
some type of personal bailout strategy.
Jeffrey D. Kolker
because, if the truth be told, I'm lazy, and if someone else has done it,
and the price is right, it isn't worth my time to reinvent the wheel. To
me, the more tools/vendors available means that there are more users around
to support the development of these tools/vendors.
One of the things i use to be envious of Visual Basic was the wide variety
of tools available to developers.
Jeff
"Robert Lerner" <rle...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ak998vkujkh33bl3m...@4ax.com...
Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)
thanks for the reply. You see, we are back again - you are not able to win a
contract in Clarion so EASY against the competitors using e.g. Oracle
Designer or Java or... And your example (with TPS) is not a typical
situation.
I can reply with my previous post:
"...when you are the only one potential supplier bidding a new solution,
you're right there isn't problem to get the project
irrespective of tool used. But when there are more competitors you cannot
win with Clarion because when they already have an IT solution (in an other
language) they prefer to have consistent environment and other supplier
wins.
I'm speaking about "clever" companies which know and have own IT divisions
responsible for consistent environment, have DBA's, team of Java
programmers, .NET specialists and looking for a supplier of an other
application. And there you cannot win."
To your question: yes, I do the integration and use both tools - dB schema,
SP and triggers are generated from Oracle Designer/Developer and the
Front-End application (GUI) from Clarion. But many of my customers have a
need of consistent environment and want to have everything in Oracle. When I
say Clarion - you know... an other story.
Maybe Russ can win or Ron, they are able to win everything in every company
in the word, and maybe in companies without any PC <VBG>.
Best Regards!
--
Alfred
http://artofprogramming.net
"Maarten" <maar...@planet.nl> wrote in
news:3e84...@news.softvelocity.com...
Ron Schofield
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" wrote:
> Maybe Russ can win or Ron, they are able to win everything in every company
> in the word, and maybe in companies without any PC <VBG>.
>
Maybe it's our presentation and our positive attitude that allows us to get the
jobs. Going into a employer with a negative and defeative attitude like you seem
to have won't help you get work.
Ron
Russell B. Eggen
the prospect likes my presentation, logic and attitude, I get the project.
If I don't get selected, I shake their hand and thank them for allowing me
to make my pitch. I never get disgruntled because I lost out, and *never*
will I do that in front of a prospect. I may not be right for that project,
but who knows about the next one? I have landed the second projects.
I also never make a career out of a project. I want to get in and get out
quickly, customer satisfied. The reason for that is simple: I want the
repeat business. You don't get that by milking a project far beyond its
life expectancy.
--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com
"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" <deve...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:3e84...@news.softvelocity.com...
Maarten,