Scams pulled by big name players in tournaments
kathiw...@my-dejanews.com
"name" players that doesn't get a lot of reporting. I heard this years WSOP
winner Scotty Nguyen was at the same table with a buddy Danny Dang during the
event. Danny was short on chips, and Scotty had a lot, so Scotty told Danny
that if they got heads up, they would go all-in and Scotty would muck his
hand to double Danny up. Well, they do get all-in heads up with flop of Q66
and Danny has Qx and Scotty had A6. Scotty turned over his hand to win the
pot and Danny is out and all pissed off. Scotty say "oh sorry Bro, I forgot"
and after tournament is over Scotty gives Danny 10 grand to cover his buy-in.
On Saturday I was at the Bicycle Club watching a $500 buy in holdem
tournament. They were down to the final four and a hand came up between Miami
John Cernuto and some kid I didnt know. Anyway, the kid bets on the turn with
Jxxx flop, and Cernuto is thinking what to do and asks the kid what he
has.(they are head up at this point) The kid says something like "just a
jack", and now Cernuato calls over a floorman and demands that the kid be
given a 20 minute penalty for saying what he had in the middle of a hand! The
floorman asks Cernuto did the kid volunteer what he had or was he asked what
he had. When told the kid " was asked what he had", the floorman said he was
not going to enforce a penalty since it was entrapment on Cernutos part.
There was some justice in the end as the kid went on to win the tournament.
There was some points for all-around money so I guess Cernuto was trying to
angle for a better share of points. What a guy. I also had heard that some
time back (maybe at a Foxwoods tournamnet) that Men "the master" Nguyen was
found to have a bunch of tournament chips in his room. Of course the public
relations people of poker don't want the public to hear this stuff. However,
I have seen Mike Caro take strong stands against cheating at poker in print,
so I give him a lot of respect since he also has to work closely with
cardroom management. So bottom line is always be on guard when playing in
tournaments. -Kathi
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Winner777
It is much worse than you think it is. BTW, I don't want to be quoted by name.
Ed Hill
Ed Hill
BadGambler
(i.e. "outsider") very long to realize that the big tourneys are looked at
by the big time players as a general funneling of money back to the big
players and their friends. Sort of the same way they look at fish all the
time, but with an (obviously) hungrier look, since the prize is so much
bigger in the big tourneys.
Jeffrey B. Siegal
> One. On the whole there is substantially less cheating in any tournament than
> there is in many live games. So players shouldn't be frightened off from
> playing in tournaments.
Evidence please? My own (admittedly limited) observations suggest the opposite.
> Two. There is much more planned cheating than successful cheating in
> tournaments. Situations seldom avail themselves as planned.
Probably true, but this says nothing about how much successful cheating there is..
I believe the graduated payout system used in tournaments is highly conducive to
cheating (because it places a premium on survival, greating increasing value of a
"soft play" strategy) and as such may be fatally flawed.
> We have to be careful about racial stereotyping.
Yes, you do.
tha...@nmia.com
says...
>
>I don't know where Kathi Williams got her information. I'll try to get some
>second sources for the stories, though.
>
>Two things come to mind when reading her post.
>One. On the whole there is substantially less cheating in any tournament than
>there is in many live games. So players shouldn't be frightened off from
>playing in tournaments.
>
Very encouraging I will get cheated in both live games and tournaments but less
in tournaments. Makes me want to join right in on the fun and play lots of
poker.
>Two. There is much more planned cheating than successful cheating in
>tournaments. Situations seldom avail themselves as planned.
>
This is great news. Extremely reassuring. All kinds of cheating scams waiting to
happen but don't occur because players don't get a lot of opportunities to pull
them off. They would if they could, however. I guess they'll just have to keep
working on better ways to cheat. I never realized tournaments were such a great
deal.
>One last thing that disturbs me. In these posts, the Vietnamese players are
>often mentioned as participants in cheating scams.
The cheating in live games and tournaments doesn't seem to disturb you why
should accusations regarding a particular ethnic group bother you.
>We have to be careful about racial stereotyping. Occidental Americans invented
>this game and were cheating each other at it for a hundred years before the
>Vietnamese were taught to play by American GIs.
Ah yes we should all follow your example and refrain from racial stereotyping
because you aren't prejudiced in the least. And I agree we should be careful in
racial stereotyping. It's an obvious fact that Occidental Americans have a rich
and long lasting heritage of cheating.
*****************************************************************
This is the most ignorant and stupid post I have ever read on RGP. You, Irish
Mike, and Doug MacPherson ought to get together and have a beer.
Tom Haley
MikePaulle
second sources for the stories, though.
Two things come to mind when reading her post.
One. On the whole there is substantially less cheating in any tournament than
there is in many live games. So players shouldn't be frightened off from
playing in tournaments.
Two. There is much more planned cheating than successful cheating in
tournaments. Situations seldom avail themselves as planned.
One last thing that disturbs me. In these posts, the Vietnamese players are
often mentioned as participants in cheating scams. We have to be careful about
Ry1150
ethnic group of cheating so why try to imply something that wasn't mentioned.
Second if it is true why be afraid to bring it out in the open. Also if Mike
knows about cheating in live games he should let the rest of us know and help
us less fortunates have a chance to play on a level field. But he does write a
good comentary on tournaments.Ryan
LouKrieger
From: mikep...@aol.com
One last thing that disturbs me. In these posts, the Vietnamese players are
often mentioned as participants in cheating scams. We have to be careful about
racial stereotyping. Occidental Americans invented this game and were
cheating.<<
This statement is one of the most disturbing I've seen since I've been reading
r.g.p. The only reference to racial stereotyping was yours, Mike. The players
referred to were not described generically, by racial group, but were mentioned
specifically -- by name. If Kathi Williams has her facts correct, then those
players were cheating, and their ethnicity has nothing to do with it.
For all the incredibly good work you've done reporting on poker tournaments,
your statement sounds like something Johnnie Cochran would have said in
addressing the OJ jury.
Kathi Williams mentioned INDIVIDUALS, not an entire ETHNIC GROUP. Cheating,
I'm sure we can all agree, has no place in poker. Neither should political
correctness.
And the one card I never want to see played in a poker game is the race card.
Let the chips -- and the facts suggested by Kathi Williams -- fall where they
may.
Keep flopping aces,
Lou Krieger
kathiw...@my-dejanews.com
mikep...@aol.com (MikePaulle) wrote:
>
> One last thing that disturbs me. In these posts, the Vietnamese players are
> often mentioned as participants in cheating scams. We have to be careful about
> each other at it for a hundred years before the Vietnamese were taught to play
> by American GIs.
I don't recall commenting on any one group of nationals being more prone to
cheating than others. I believe Miami John Cernuto is of Italian heritage, so
you forgot to scold me for bashing Italians. I could have mentioned how Dr.
Max Stern purchased a title at the 1997 WSOP for his wife Maria when she was
heads up with a willing opponent. Now they can proudly say they are the only
husband - wife team to each win 1 or more titles in the same year at the
WSOP. Since they are from central America, I guess I should get flamed for
bashing Latin Americans. (also, since Maria is a woman, I guess I deserve a
double flame for that one.) This political correct postering of the 90's is
insulting. -Kathi
MikePaulle
Focus912
ditto for your first post
ditto for your second post
jd
JD
MikePaulle
I truly regret getting caught making a dumb post. I take full responsibility
for my mistake in misleading the poker public. Most of all, I regret the pain
and embarrassment this has caused my family.
It time...it's past time to put this investigation of my intelligence behind us
and move on. I'm going to Martha's Vineyard at government expense for two weeks
to try to explain to my loved ones how I could have been so stupid. I will
henceforth reclaim my privacy.
Michael Paulle
Albert Wang
kathiw...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6rbvjp$ot$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Now they can proudly say they are the only
>husband - wife team to each win 1 or more titles in the same year at the
>WSOP. Since they are from central America, I guess I should get flamed for
>bashing Latin Americans. (also, since Maria is a woman, I guess I deserve a
>double flame for that one.) This political correct postering of the 90's
is
>insulting. -Kathi
>
...Let's not forget about the tendencies of married people to cheat....
Albert
Ken Churilla
hehehe. Good post, Mike. Just don't blow it again. Or do I have that
backwards? :-)
Ken Churilla
AaMarkHays
I've often said this newsgroup has some damn fine thinkers but also an equal
number of piss poor readers. It looked to me that you were bringing up the
racial stereotyping issue as an aside, not commenting on anything implied in
Kathi's post. Perhaps in re-read it would have been better to either post it
seperately or to have included a disclaimer. Either way, don't sweat it.
Mark
Lee Jones
MikePaulle <mikep...@aol.com> wrote:
>I don't know where Kathi Williams got her information. I'll try to get some
>One. On the whole there is substantially less cheating in any tournament than
>there is in many live games. So players shouldn't be frightened off from
>playing in tournaments.
Jeff Siegal correctly responded to this by saying (in effect) "Prove it."
Basic economics would indicate that cheating should be *more* prevelant in
tournaments because it has a much higher return per unit effort. When you're
down to the final table of a major event there are multiple thousands
of dollars of difference if you finish Nth or (N-1)th. Such massively
non-linear effects make cheating *very* (financially) attractive, compared
to the risky business of consistently cheating a live game for a few dollars
an hour.
Mike, I don't think there's any way in the *world* to know if "there is
substantially less cheating in any tournament than there is in many live
games", but I'd say the underlying conditions are against your statement.
Regards, Lee
--
Lee Jones | "I know a place, y'all - ain't nobody cryin'.
le...@sgi.com | Ain't nobody worryin'. No smiling faces lying to the races."
650-933-3356 | -Staple Singers
http://reality.sgi.com/leej_engr
Purplvegas
has.(they are head up at this point) The kid says something like "just a
jack", and now Cernuato calls over a floorman and demands that the kid be
given a 20 minute penalty for saying what he had in the middle of a
hand!>>>>>>>
How typically Cernuto!!!
LegenDaryl
>has.(they are head up at this point) The kid says something like "just a
>jack", and now Cernuato calls over a floorman and demands that the kid be
>floorman asks Cernuto did the kid volunteer what he had or was he asked what
>he had. When told the kid " was asked what he had", the floorman said he was
>not going to enforce a penalty since it was entrapment on Cernutos part.
Can anyone verify the ruling on this? I always thought you could say anything
you want about your cards as long as you don't show them. If the "kid" hadn't
been asked, could he really have been penalized for saying he had a jack??
tha...@nmia.com
forget the high rakes at a lot of casino's. We should never forget the
viability of the WSOP and the ownernership of the Horseshoe. Let's not forget
all of the dealers and the tips they should get. So all together in this thread
we have discussed 'crazy asians', smoking, cheating, the issue of married
couples playing at the same table, the rake, the viability of the WSOP, the
ownership of the Horseshoe, and tipping. Have I missed anything?
MikePaulle
Your medication?
B529529
>time back (maybe at a Foxwoods tournamnet) that Men "the master" Nguyen was
>found to have a bunch of tournament chips in his room.
Boy, I can't believe what people will say on a public forum with no essence of
truth whatsoever. The facts about Men Nguyen at Foxwoods are as follows: I
was sitting next to Men in a supersatellite at the World Poker Finals.
Security came up to him and said let's go. Men was escorted into an office and
the next day rumors were spreading what Men was caught cheating.
Men and Nhut Tran were escorted off the casino property.
But they did not find a bunch of tournament chips in Men's and Nhut's room.
What they found was a bunch of burnt fish. They were cooking in a wok in their
room at Foxwoods and the fish started smoking. The firm alarm went off and the
Two Trees Inn at Foxwood had to be evacuated. In their panic they tried to
disable the smoke detector in their room. Management did not appreciate their
actions and they got the boot.
So let's get the facts straight before you start making accusations.
And as for the Miami John claim, I sure would like to know the basis for that
accusation. I've played for many years with Miami John and I can't believe it
happened that way. He is a class act and a gentleman of the game.
I've been playing tournament poker for 15 years and I'm sure some cheating has
occured, but it is rare. So let's get the facts straight before posting
stories of cheating. I'm sure you would take offense to posts about you that
were untrue.
Jim Boyd
MikePaulle
Coatie1
>From: mikep...@aol.com
I also would like to know.... why cant u say whats in your hand???
post...@nospam.com
wrote:
>But they did not find a bunch of tournament chips in Men's and Nhut's room.
>What they found was a bunch of burnt fish. They were cooking in a wok in their
It wasn't a smokescreen? They didn't find chips too?
Fish and chips? Any red herring?
John A. D. Cervanyk
--
Take care,
John A. D. Cervanyk --- ja...@dnvr.uswest.net
Pinky! Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Dan Radosevich
My understanding is that silence is expected during the play of a hand
except for, "Check, call, bet, raise, or fold".
Quietly,
Dan Radosevich.
Dan Radosevich
>
> > I also had heard that some
> >time back (maybe at a Foxwoods tournamnet) that Men "the master"
> Nguyen was
>
> But they did not find a bunch of tournament chips in Men's and Nhut's
> room.
> What they found was a bunch of burnt fish.
By the time the gossip got all the way out here to Wyoming, they were
alleged to have had "fish and chips" in the room. A violation of the
hotel's catering policy.
Believing that rumors can injure,
Dan Radosevich
Purplvegas
except for, "Check, call, bet, raise, or fold".
Quietly,
Dan Radosevich.>>>>>>>
As in England, that rule should be enforced here more often.
Stephen H. Landrum
> Can anyone verify the ruling on this? I always thought you could say anything
> you want about your cards as long as you don't show them.
Not in a tournament.
--
"Stephen H. Landrum" <slan...@pacbell.net>
Mike Caro
<give...@chance.com> wrote:
>My understanding is that silence is expected during the play of a hand
>except for, "Check, call, bet, raise, or fold".
If silence ever becomes the rule in the poker games I play, I will
quit. I will advise everyone else to quit. I will take out ads telling
people to quit.
I will editorialize against the game having been hijacked by
one-dimentional folks who want to destroy its psychological aspects so
that they can win despite their possible weakness in that regard. I
will explain that they are making the game less comfortable and less
friendly to newcomers and less intriguing to experienced players. I
will recommend that people play chess, instead.
I will find something else to do besides poker. I will consider all my
years of poker research wasted. I will consider anyone who continues
to play poker disgraced, and I will refuse to talk to them socially.
And, no, I'm not kidding..
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
NewJane1
>quit. I will advise everyone else to quit. I will take out ads telling
>people to quit.
HERE HERE!!
If I want silence, I will call my ex-
Always looking for a good conversation,
Janie
Purplvegas
years of poker research wasted. I will consider anyone who continues
to play poker disgraced, and I will refuse to talk to them socially.>>>
Is that a threat or a promise?
Barbara Yoon
>> "Check, call, bet, raise, or fold".
Mike Caro:
> If silence ever becomes the rule in the poker games I play, I will quit.
> I will advise everyone else to quit. I will take out ads telling people
> to quit. I will editorialize against the game having been hijacked by
> one-dimentional folks who want to destroy its psychological aspects
> so that they can win despite their possible weakness in that regard.
> I will explain that they are making the game less comfortable and less
> friendly to newcomers and less intriguing to experienced players. I will
> recommend that people play chess, instead. I will find something else
> to do besides poker. I will consider all my years of poker research
> wasted. I will consider anyone who continues to play poker disgraced,
> and I will refuse to talk to them socially. And, no, I'm not kidding...
I'm with you, Mike... And I'd go even farther, to insist that this new game
not even be called real "poker" -- maybe "styrofoam poker"...
greatbrit
> It's not just YOU talking that is an integral part of poker. It is
> also THEM talking to you. And this all part of the spirit, fun, and
> skill of poker.
>
> As Barbara Yoon just implied, if you're going to take away those
> elements, you better call it something besides poker.
Dumb poker.
B529529
>quit. I will advise everyone else to quit. I will take out ads telling
>people to quit.
>
>I will editorialize against the game having been hijacked by
>one-dimentional folks who want to destroy its psychological aspects so
>that they can win despite their possible weakness in that regard. I
>will explain that they are making the game less comfortable and less
>friendly to newcomers and less intriguing to experienced players. I
>will recommend that people play chess, instead.
>
>I will find something else to do besides poker. I will consider all my
>years of poker research wasted. I will consider anyone who continues
>to play poker disgraced, and I will refuse to talk to them socially.
>
>
>Straight Flushes,
>Mike Caro
>
Mike, I agree with you 100%. Talking is a big part of my game and with my
verbal skills I get calls, folds, and reads I would never get if I remained
silent. Of course, there are times when talking in the middle of a hand is
wrong, but anything I can do to increase my chances to win within the bounds of
legal play, I think is O.K. It's just another part of the psychology of the
game.
Mike Caro
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Sid
called then? And why are the english players doing so well at the WSOP in
pot-limit-games?
NoFlop (not english)
Mike Caro wrote in message <35de7881...@nntp.we.mediaone.net>...
VC61
talking to you. And this all part of the spirit, fun, and skill of poker.>>
One of the more memorable hands at BARGE this year:
I believe it was Steve Brecher (correct me if I am wrong) who, heads up in a
pot limit game, said to someone when the river card flopped . . .
"How much can you afford to lose?"
Purplvegas
pot-limit-games?>>
Maybe they're not chatting as much and giving away their hands.
Mike Caro
wrote:
>Mike Caro wrote:
>
>> It's not just YOU talking that is an integral part of poker. It is
>> also THEM talking to you. And this all part of the spirit, fun, and
>> skill of poker.
>>
>> As Barbara Yoon just implied, if you're going to take away those
>> elements, you better call it something besides poker.
>
>Dumb poker.
Very clever and appropriate name! You can't object to it, no matter
how you feel.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Mike Caro
>So as I understand it, they don't play poker in England.
Correct. I've already made THAT point.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Nathaniel Silver
Mike Caro wrote in message:
>It's not just YOU talking that is an integral part of poker. It is
>also THEM talking to you. And this all part of the spirit, fun, and
>skill of poker.
<snip>
As someone who is relatively poor at reading verbal cues and, therefore,
does not have a vested interest in preserving poker as we now know it,
I think a silence rule would add dignity and class to the game (mainly
for tournament poker), because it would lend an air of seriousness to
the proceedings for the tourist and also make informal cheating more
difficult and amateur partnerships (which I don't see as cheating although
I abhor them, but that's another thread) less effective. I say all this,
recognizing that for you poker is about coffeehousing and getting an edge
in this way, as you have spent a lifetime developing and refining your
intuition.
In my opinion, in the grand scheme of things, a silence rule is just the
kind of
thing poker needs to graduate and become a major pastime.
By the way, as you describe it, you had so much respect at that table in the
WSOP, it is clear to me, in hindsight, that (although I know very little)
you
should have mucked that hand, because you did not need to take such a risk
so early on in the play with all your advantages. That's another example of
the big picture. (This last sentence is just a joke. Please, no cards of
letters.)
NS
NS
John5...@aol.com
though are trying to also insinuate that not very much cheating goes on in
tournaments and certainly not by name players. This is crap of course as many
big name tournament players have been caught cheating and it has become
public knowledge or has been swept under the rug. Until subjects such as this
and tournament collusion, and the number of truly broke players/addicted
gamblers in tournaments are addressed(i.e. "the bad side of poker"), concepts
like TOC will ultimately lead no where. Unless something can be profitable
AND present a good public image, there will be no sponsorship.
John
In article <35DB048B...@chance.com>,
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Tad Perry
>So as I understand it, they don't play poker in England. What is the game
>pot-limit-games?
Because you understand incorreclty. They play poker over there.
Tad Perry
PKRPAULIE
>> Can anyone verify the ruling on this? I always thought you could say
>anything
>> you want about your cards as long as you don't show them.
It is unfair for two players to discuss their hands in a tournament.
This rule I believe is to protect the field. A decision may be made that would
have knocked the player out, but instead didn't due to the talk of the hand.
Also no one mentioned that the most profitable games are the ones with
the most talking going on at the table. Silence is deadly to your bankroll.
gl...@my-dejanews.com
John5...@aol.com wrote:
> All this may be very true(or not). It seems though that an awful lot of you
> though are trying to also insinuate that not very much cheating goes on in
> tournaments and certainly not by name players. This is crap of course as many
I don't play many tournaments, never played in a large one. But, my
experience has been that cheating is everywhere else in poker, no reason to
think it's not in tournaments. I guess I've been playing poker off-and-on for
about 15-20 years. In that time I've had 4 occasions where I ran across
games that where so juicy that I didn't do anything except play in them for
peirods of from a few months to a few years. In all cases there was lots of
cheating going on. Back when AJ's was a nolit draw/loball club, we had
hold-out artists, peoplke scamming white chips out of the pot, stealing cards
out of the muck, collusive betting, and I suspected attempts at cold-decking
mor than once. I just learned to pick a tanble where there where none of the
usual suspects. btw, I wrote a CP story about 6-8 years ago that incuded
some of the AJ cheating (at the insistence of LJ no cardrooms where mentioned
by name) For a while Circus Circus LV had a real juicy 1-5 game (I took a
steady 1k a week out of it for about 6 months). The only major cheating I
saw there was a dealer who would flash cards to her husband in the 10 seat.
She dind't flash em when he wasn't playing. I just took a walk when she was
in the box. At private games in Victoria TX we had people shorting the pot,
scamming chips from the pot, swithching cards from the muck, etc. But, they
played so bad I didn't care. On the Players boat in Lake Charles we had more
than one hold out artists who plyed often in the 10-20-40 and the 20-40
games. Daubed cards were also frequtly found (the dealers would quitely pull
them from the game). Whether your game is a home game, a casino game, or a
tournement -- if you think it has no cheats in the game then you just arne't
paying attention. gary carson gar...@clubhouse.email.net austin
ajsULCD...@webtv.net
ditto M. Caro's post.
However, the conversation cannot include disclosing cards one threw away
or advising another player during play of the hand.
_Poker Dan
MikePaulle
their hand as long as it was still live. It's called lying or pretending to lie
when you're telling the truth.
Pat Fleming is probably the most talkative player I know. He will often say
exactly what he has in order to try to convince people not to suck out on him.
I'm sure Pat would tell you talking is a major part of his game. No one's ever
stopped him or have they even suggested that it may be against the rules.
That's why I was so surprised at the Cernuto attempt. There must be more to
that story than what we have heard.
.
Steve Brecher
> One of the more memorable hands at BARGE this year:
>
> I believe it was Steve Brecher (correct me if I am wrong) who, heads up in a
> pot limit game, said to someone when the river card flopped . . .
>
> "How much can you afford to lose?"
VC61 is wrong.
--
st...@brecher.reno.nv.us (Steve Brecher)
Jon Shoreman
>
>
>Straight Flushes,
>Mike Caro
Wrong. We do play poker in England.
The concise Oxford dictionary describes poker as:
"a card-game in which bluff is used as players
bet on the value of their hands"
There is no mention of the fact that talking is a prerequisite
of the game.
Most people have the wrong impression of poker in England.
There is not a no talking rule, there is in fact a no "Moody" rule.
A "Moody" would constitute, telling a player what you may or
may not have. Asking a player what they have. Making a
comment about a hand, during play. Announcing that you are
going to raise this pot before the cards are in the air.
Taking an excessive amount of time to make an action when
you have the stone cold nuts. etc. It is very difficult to define
exactly what a "Moody" is. This causes a problem. It's also
very difficult to enforce the rule. There is also very little redress
if someone does, "Moody". There is in fact a lot of talking takes
place during games, especially in the larger games, and nothing
is done about it.
I personally wish there was no "Moody" rule and you could
say and do what you like.
Jon Shoreman
EPPA, European Poker Players Association
http://eppa.bigfoot.com
TOC, Tournament of Champions
http://eppa.bigfoot.com/TOC
John5...@aol.com
"Nathaniel Silver" <mat...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Mike Caro wrote in message:
> >It's not just YOU talking that is an integral part of poker. It is
> >also THEM talking to you. And this all part of the spirit, fun, and
> >skill of poker.
Exactly. Of course, antisocial people with minimal social and communications
skills(like many in the poker world and on the internet) tend to dislike any
human contact. Must drive them crazy when the local joe polishes off a few
cold ones, yaks up a storm, and gets lucky enough to suck out insides str8
draws all night long. He he.
John
>
> <snip>
>
> As someone who is relatively poor at reading verbal cues and, therefore,
> does not have a vested interest in preserving poker as we now know it,
> I think a silence rule would add dignity and class to the game (mainly
> for tournament poker), because it would lend an air of seriousness to
> the proceedings for the tourist and also make informal cheating more
> difficult and amateur partnerships (which I don't see as cheating although
> I abhor them, but that's another thread) less effective. I say all this,
> recognizing that for you poker is about coffeehousing and getting an edge
> in this way, as you have spent a lifetime developing and refining your
> intuition.
> In my opinion, in the grand scheme of things, a silence rule is just the
> kind of
> thing poker needs to graduate and become a major pastime.
>
> By the way, as you describe it, you had so much respect at that table in the
> WSOP, it is clear to me, in hindsight, that (although I know very little)
> you
> should have mucked that hand, because you did not need to take such a risk
> so early on in the play with all your advantages. That's another example of
> the big picture. (This last sentence is just a joke. Please, no cards of
> letters.)
>
> NS
>
> NS
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
fran...@hotmail.com
Albert. Albert.
Fifth Street Frank
In article <ZfiC1.2376$AO6.9...@news.san.rr.com>,
"Albert Wang" <awa...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
> ...Let's not forget about the tendencies of married people to cheat....
>
> Albert
Jim Geary
> vc...@aol.com (VC61) wrote:
>
> > One of the more memorable hands at BARGE this year:
> >
> > I believe it was Steve Brecher (correct me if I am wrong) who, heads up in a
> > pot limit game, said to someone when the river card flopped . . .
> >
> > "How much can you afford to lose?"
>
> VC61 is wrong.
Or even more precisely,
"How much can I win from you?"
Jim Geary
jaygee at primenet dot com
http://www.primenet.com/~jaygee/
ed_s...@hotmail.com
mikep...@aol.com (MikePaulle) wrote:
> That's why I was so surprised at the Cernuto attempt. There must be more to
> that story than what we have heard.
I don't know why this surprises people. Maybe because it is John, however, Sam
Grizzle did exactly the same thing in the late stages of a Foxwoods tournament
a couple of years ago, and they did kill the other person's hand.
[SG and other player are heads up on the flop, flop comes Q high, player bets
out, SG says 'show me a Q and I'll fold' other player exposes Q, SG says 'I
believe you have a dead hand there, calls the floor, and they kill the hand
and push the pot to him.]
Of course, incidents such as this wouldn't be an issue if people were not
stupid and realize that there are going to be angle shooters in most every
game, and they should play according to the rules or pay for their ignorance /
carelessness, especially in a tournament when there is big $ at stake.
Zagie
>I think a silence rule would add dignity and class to the game (mainly
>for tournament poker), because it would lend an air of seriousness to
>the proceedings for the tourist and <snip>
>In my opinion, in the grand scheme of things, a silence rule is just the
>kind of
>thing poker needs to graduate and become a major pastime.
The increasing excesses of Ile Nastase, Jimmy Conners, and John McEnroe are
what brought tennis from a little-known, mostly ignored sport to the status it
has today. People don't want to watch dignity and class, they want a good,
knock-down fight, with colorful characters that they can love or hate.
Colorful characters we have!
People would love to watch Phil Hellmuth get knocked out with a bad beat, stand
up, yell at the dealers, and throw his cards. Publicly, of course, they would
scoff and tsk, but you can bet they'd be glued to their sets in the next major
tournament where Phil made the final table.
But the viewing public does NOT want deals. If poker wants sponsors, it needs
viewers. If it wants viewers, it needs to make payoff structures that make
deals unnecessary. The only alternative is to abandon the hope of sponsors
altogether.
Regards,
Zag
----------------------------------
ZagNet Consulting
http://www.zag.net
fer...@hotmail.com
> I have never heard of a rule that stopped anyone from saying anything about
> their hand as long as it was still live. It's called lying or pretending to
> lie when you're telling the truth.
>
> Pat Fleming is probably the most talkative player I know. He will often say
> exactly what he has in order to try to convince people not to suck out on him.
> I'm sure Pat would tell you talking is a major part of his game. No one's ever
> stopped him or have they even suggested that it may be against the rules.
>
> that story than what we have heard.
>
I think that this makes sense and is fair when heads-up in a ring game.
Otherwise, there are other factors involved.
If there are 3+ players in a pot, it may not be fair to other players to share
information about their hands. What if you had a set of aces on the turn
against two flush draws (in the same suit) and you heard the following
conversation:
"I need a diamond"
"So do I, I guess were both on a flush draw"
"I have the king"
"Well, I have the ace, I'll call and you fold"
"Alright"
Certainly, you'd be furious and rightfully so, as you still lose the pot if a
(non-pairing) diamond hit the river, but now you have a smaller pot if you do
hang on.
In a tournament, all players (at all tables) have a vested interest in the
outcome of *every* hand (usually hoping someone will bust). What if you were
in a tournament, 17 players left, 16 places paid, UTG, knowing you'll be
all-in on your blind the next hand. Luckily for you, two identically-sized
medium stacks are heads up (let's say they are friends), the flop comes AK5
rainbow, and one player moves all-in. The other is about to call all-in when
you hear the following conversation: "Hey, don't call me... I don't want to
bust one out of the money" "But I have a set of kings, I have to call"
"Well, I have a set of aces: fold and we're both in the money" "Glad you
told me, I fold, but why did you give away your hand?" "Because that guy
over there is going all-in the next hand anyway, that way I can win this pot
with absolutely no chance of missing the money if your one out hits."
"Great" Here, you end up one out of the money in a situation where someone
*should* have busted out one hand before you, if not for this "collusion".
Yes, I know these are extreme cases, but they show that giving information
about your hand can sometimes be unfair to other players. (In the examples
above, assume that the "colluding" players are friends and are obviously not
trying to deceive each other.) Other situations like this (talking about
one's hand) will arise that are much more innocent, but they may have the
same effect. Also, players who lose a hand may complain when they perceive
mid-hand conversation about players' hands to be collusion. That is why I
believe that making direct comments about one's hand during play, unless
heads-up in a ring game, should be discouraged.
Obviously, comments like "Pair the board", "I need help", "I have outs", "I
think that card just killed my hand", "I'll raise to get the flush draws out",
etc. are borderline, and I am not trying to advocate the addition of strict
"no talking about you hand" rules.
-Matthew Bjorge
Mike Caro
wrote:
Agreed.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Mike Caro
<Jon_Sh...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>The concise Oxford dictionary describes poker as:
>"a card-game in which bluff is used as players
>bet on the value of their hands"
>There is no mention of the fact that talking is a prerequisite
>of the game.
Those sons of a bitches! I'm going to rush off a letter today,
suggesting that they correct the error. Thanks for bringing this to my
attention!
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
MikePaulle
would be no surprise. I was under the impression that no card was shown, only a
hand verbally portrayed.
Patti Beadles
Nathaniel Silver <mat...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I think a silence rule would add dignity and class to the game (mainly
>for tournament poker), because it would lend an air of seriousness to
>the proceedings for the tourist and also make informal cheating more
>difficult and amateur partnerships (which I don't see as cheating although
>I abhor them, but that's another thread) less effective.
I won't address this for tournaments, but for ring games I think this
is a horrendous idea. For many people, poker is a social outlet as
well as a game and a moneymaking opportunity. As Mike Caro has
pointed out, the table that will be most profitable for you is the one
where people are laughing and having fun.
If you attempt to turn it into a serious and somber pursuit, a lot of
people won't want to play.
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles |
pat...@netcom.com/pat...@gammon.com |
http://www.gammon.com/ | "I trust you. It's just
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | that I'm scared of you."
Purplvegas
Grizzle did exactly the same thing in the late stages of a Foxwoods
tournament>>>
Another shot-pulling beauty, ranking with the best (or worst) of 'em.
Albert Wang
Patti Beadles wrote in message ...
>If you attempt to turn it into a serious and somber pursuit, a lot of
>people won't want to play.
>
>-Patti
>--
Yes... it really sucks when everyone is all serious, somber and not having
fun when pursuing their hobby. Many people call that a "bad JOB"...
Hope I'm never drawing dead,
Albert
NoFlop
" And why are the english players doing so well at the WSOP in
pot-limit-games?"
NoFlop
Mike Caro wrote in message <35dc8be5...@nntp.we.mediaone.net>...
>On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 03:26:30 +0200, "Sid" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
Fuzy 777
off. Janie (No, not that Janie)
recreational gambling/poker
Mike Caro
pot-limit games, if they are. I wasn't aware of this. Perhaps there
are a lot of very high quality pot-limit players in England. Fox
hunting? Truffles?
If you know the answer, please share it with us. :-)
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 04:29:52 +0200, "NoFlop" <nos...@nospam.com>
wrote:
MikePaulle
the final three players at the WSOP pot-limit event were English.
John A. D. Cervanyk
> Mike Caro
So, Mike, when will that letter *really* be sent? :-D
--
Take care,
John A. D. Cervanyk --- ja...@dnvr.uswest.net
Pinky! Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Jon Shoreman
Mike Caro wrote in message <35dd5686...@nntp.we.mediaone.net>...
Alternatively you could create your own dictionary on the
Language of the USA, subtitle, a bastardised version of English.
Jon Shoreman
Jon Shoreman
>I don't know why the English players are doing so well at the WSOP in
>pot-limit games, if they are. I wasn't aware of this. Perhaps there
>are a lot of very high quality pot-limit players in England. Fox
>hunting? Truffles?
>
>If you know the answer, please share it with us. :-)
>
>Straight Flushes,
>Mike Caro
>
The reason the English players do so well at the WSOP is probably
helped by the fact that they only play Pot-Limit in England.
Some of the players from London play, exclusively Pot-Limit Holdem.
Even the lower limit players are doing well. Case in point,
Dominic Bourke who is a regular player in the Ł100 Pot Limit
Holdem games in London and placed second in the
$2,000 Pot Limit Holdem.
Top three places in the $3,000 Pot Limit Holdem went to
Steve Rydell, Dave Ulliott and Surinder Sunar,
all of whom are from England.
And, what the hell has Truffles got to do with England?
They come from France.
Oh, I forgot, the Americans are geographically challenged,
Europe is one large land mass, with no distinction between the
different countries, even though England is part of an Island
which is separate from the rest of Europe.
Jon Shoreman
"always playing pot-limit, if there's a game available"
http://eppa.bigfoot.com
David Monaghan
>I don't know why the English players are doing so well at the WSOP in
>pot-limit games, if they are. I wasn't aware of this. Perhaps there
>are a lot of very high quality pot-limit players in England. Fox
>hunting? Truffles?
Could be. OTOH as we're now owned by MacDonalds how come we don't do
better in the limit events?
>If you know the answer, please share it with us. :-)
Its the weather. But lets keep that little secret between the two of
us, OK?
DaveM
Mike Caro
The "rivalry" between England and the States seems to me to be
one-way. I never met a single "American" who resents Great Britain,
but I have met many Brits who seem to think this attitude exists.
For most of us, England is loved and we are fond of things British. I
could have said "tea" instead of "truffles." But, then, I would have
had to explain that tea comes from India and China and many other
places.
You wrote (in part):
>>
"Oh, I forgot, the Americans are geographically challenged, Europe is
one large land mass, with no distinction between the different
countries, even though England is part of an Island which is separate
from the rest of Europe."
<<
If you CAN walk (or drive) from England to Scotland, and from there to
Sweden, doesn't that mean that England is, in fact, attached to the
European continent? I realize that there is water between England and
France, but many millions of people have gone from London to Scotland
and THEN to other European countries. Right?
By the way, one thing we Americans seldom tolerate is any
disrespectful comment targeting "America's Mad Genius." We generally
excuse this one time, in light of foreign ignorance of our customs. It
is not the person we are honoring, in this regard. It is the office.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Dave Horwitz
Mike Caro wrote in message <35dfaa9f...@nntp.we.mediaone.net>...
>For most of us, England is loved and we are fond of things British.
Blood pudding? Which I consider to be representative
of British food in general...
-Quick
NPB
>Sweden, doesn't that mean that England is, in fact, attached to the
>European continent? I realize that there is water between England and
>France, but many millions of people have gone from London to Scotland
>and THEN to other European countries. Right?
Drive from Scotland to Sweden, you better hope your Yugo floats!
D. Taylor
goes to the core of belief systems of the islanders I have known,
whether they live in England or not. Try living casually in Victoria BC,
or chatting up an Oxford don ... or sitting at a table of poker players
who have come down from Ascot ... An American would have to be a little
masochistic ...But, so would a British emigrant...
Dick Taylor
Mike Caro wrote:
>
> Jon --
>
> The "rivalry" between England and the States seems to me to be
> one-way. I never met a single "American" who resents Great Britain,
> but I have met many Brits who seem to think this attitude exists.
>
> For most of us, England is loved and we are fond of things British. I
> could have said "tea" instead of "truffles." But, then, I would have
> had to explain that tea comes from India and China and many other
> places.
>
> You wrote (in part):
> >>
> "Oh, I forgot, the Americans are geographically challenged, Europe is
> one large land mass, with no distinction between the different
> countries, even though England is part of an Island which is separate
> from the rest of Europe."
> <<
>
> If you CAN walk (or drive) from England to Scotland, and from there to
> Sweden, doesn't that mean that England is, in fact, attached to the
> European continent? I realize that there is water between England and
> France, but many millions of people have gone from London to Scotland
> and THEN to other European countries. Right?
>
W ow
~~~R.&P
on river~~
Mike Caro
Besides, I just reread my message carefully and what I said regarding
being able to walk or drive from England to Sweden, by way of
Scotland, is true. There are land bridges in several parts of the
world to which many are oblivious.
You're right, though. I am doing this purely from memory and have not
bothered to consult a map. Still, I will cover all bets.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 00:11:24 +0200, "NoFlop" <nos...@nospam.com>
wrote:
>You didn't follow this "facts" up with a smiley face so I my guess this is
>what you really believe and I think it's pathetic. Invest a few bucks in a
>map man! Even walking (driving) from France to Sweden you would have to go
>by Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Russia and Finland which
>would be quite a roundabout compared to going by sea (crossing over from
>Germany or Denmark).
>
>And for the record I'm neither English, Scottish nor Swedish. So any jokes
>about the English way of life wouldn't bother me :-).
>
>NoFlop
>
>Mike Caro wrote in message <35dfaa9f...@nntp.we.mediaone.net>...
>>
VC61
general...
>
>-Quick
Actually it is only a thickener away from borschst.
B.A.
NoFlop
NoFlop
England. You've categorically explainded this is not the reason. You are the
Genius, so you come up with the answer :-).
NoFlop ( who is not English but has played quite a bit in London)
Mike Caro wrote in message <35dcfea2...@nntp.we.mediaone.net>...
>I don't know why the English players are doing so well at the WSOP in
>pot-limit games, if they are. I wasn't aware of this. Perhaps there
>are a lot of very high quality pot-limit players in England. Fox
>hunting? Truffles?
>
>If you know the answer, please share it with us. :-)
>
>Straight Flushes,
>Mike Caro
>
>On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 04:29:52 +0200, "NoFlop" <nos...@nospam.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I see you didn't dare to answer my follow-up question:
>>" And why are the english players doing so well at the WSOP in
>>pot-limit-games?"
>>
>>NoFlop
>>
NoFlop
NPB wrote in message <6rkikh$92...@dragon.sk.sympatico.ca>...
>>If you CAN walk (or drive) from England to Scotland, and from there to
>>Sweden, doesn't that mean that England is, in fact, attached to the
>>European continent? I realize that there is water between England and
>>France, but many millions of people have gone from London to Scotland
>>and THEN to other European countries. Right?
>
>
NoFlop
not Pot-Limit Hold'Em tournaments.
There are NO No-Limit ringgames in legal Casinoes. They also play a lot of
Pot-Limit Omaha High Only. Pot-Limit Hold'Em and Pot-limit Omaha sees to be
the games the English do their best in when in USA.
NoFlop (still not English)
MikePaulle wrote in message
<199808210711...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
NoFlop
oblivious to. Relevant to crossing from Scotland to Sweden, no there aren't.
They've started building a huge bridge from Sweden to Denmark but it is not
for use in this Millenium. They've built a tunnel under the channel from
England to France, but it's for trains only. No walking or driving. As for
walking or driving from Scotland to any other country in the world BUT
England without returning to England first, you stand as much chance as
walking or floating in your Yugo from Los Angeles to Honolulu.
Hey, those are both American cities so by definition I guess you can do
that?:-)
Cover all bets? Well maybe if you returned to England (what were you doing
in Scotland then???) sneaked by the guards and started to walk in the tunnel
without any alarmsystems or traindrivers detecting you and sneaked by the
guards in France and took the long detour through Europe. The detour by the
way would double or triple the length of your trip compared to crossing by
sea.
Don't you have any maps at all outside USA in the house? Maybe you could
find something on the Internet.
NoFlop (still not English)
Mike Caro wrote in message <35e9f59e....@nntp.we.mediaone.net>...
Mike Caro
EUROPE. I WILL COVER ALL BETS, DESPITE YOUR ARGUMENTS.
Just so we don't misunderstand each other. I realize that there is a
lot of water between the coast of England and the coast of Europe. I
even know about the English Channel. I know about the Chunnel between
Folkestone and Calais, too.
But, are you telling me that England is NOT linked by land to Sweden,
through Scotland, to the NORTH??? Wouldn't that make England an
ISLAND, completely surrounded by water? If that were the case,
wouldn't the fact be widely known worldwide, even by us
"geographically challenged" Americans? Have you ever heard of the
Vikings raiding England? What is your theory on how these foot
soldiers got there?
To be even more specific: Are you saying that there is NO land route
that you could walk or drive between London and Paris, IF you were
willing to spend a lot of time and go out of your way?
Yes, you can have my bet. I did NOT now, nor did I EVER, say that you
could walk DIRECTLY IN A STRAIGHT LINE from London to Paris. Does this
make my position clearer?
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 03:54:46 +0200, "NoFlop" <nos...@nospam.com>
wrote:
gar...@my-dejanews.com
rec.gambling.dumb-bar-bet by mistake. Thanks, Gary Carson ca...@caro.com
(Mike Caro) wrote:
> I STAND BY MY WORDS RELATING TO THE LAND CROSSING BETWEEN ENGLAND AND
> EUROPE. I WILL COVER ALL BETS, DESPITE YOUR ARGUMENTS.
>
> Just so we don't misunderstand each other. I realize that there is a
> lot of water between the coast of England and the coast of Europe. I
> even know about the English Channel. I know about the Chunnel between
> Folkestone and Calais, too.
>
> But, are you telling me that England is NOT linked by land to Sweden,
> through Scotland, to the NORTH??? Wouldn't that make England an
> >They've started building a huge bridge from Sweden to Denmark but it is not
> >for use in this Millenium. They've built a tunnel under the channel from
> >England to France, but it's for trains only. No walking or driving. As for
> >walking or driving from Scotland to any other country in the world BUT
> >England without returning to England first, you stand as much chance as
> >walking or floating in your Yugo from Los Angeles to Honolulu.
> >Hey, those are both American cities so by definition I guess you can do
> >that?:-)
> >
> >Cover all bets? Well maybe if you returned to England (what were you doing
> >
> >Don't you have any maps at all outside USA in the house? Maybe you could
> >find something on the Internet.
> >
> >NoFlop (still not English)
> >
> >Mike Caro wrote in message <35e9f59e....@nntp.we.mediaone.net>...
> >>Besides, I just reread my message carefully and what I said regarding
> >>being able to walk or drive from England to Sweden, by way of
> >>Scotland, is true. There are land bridges in several parts of the
> >>world to which many are oblivious.
> >>
> >>You're right, though. I am doing this purely from memory and have not
> >>bothered to consult a map. Still, I will cover all bets.
> >
> >
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
David Monaghan
>If you CAN walk (or drive) from England to Scotland, and from there to
>Sweden, doesn't that mean that England is, in fact, attached to the
>European continent? I realize that there is water between England and
>France, but many millions of people have gone from London to Scotland
>and THEN to other European countries. Right?
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:40:42 GMT, ca...@caro.com (Mike Caro) wrote:
>Besides, I just reread my message carefully and what I said regarding
>being able to walk or drive from England to Sweden, by way of
>Scotland, is true. There are land bridges in several parts of the
>world to which many are oblivious.
On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 03:49:10 GMT, ca...@caro.com (Mike Caro) wrote:
>I STAND BY MY WORDS RELATING TO THE LAND CROSSING BETWEEN ENGLAND AND
>EUROPE. I WILL COVER ALL BETS, DESPITE YOUR ARGUMENTS.
>Just so we don't misunderstand each other. I realize that there is a
>lot of water between the coast of England and the coast of Europe. I
>even know about the English Channel. I know about the Chunnel between
>Folkestone and Calais, too.
>But, are you telling me that England is NOT linked by land to Sweden,
>through Scotland, to the NORTH??? Wouldn't that make England an
>ISLAND, completely surrounded by water? If that were the case,
>wouldn't the fact be widely known worldwide, even by us
>"geographically challenged" Americans? Have you ever heard of the
>Vikings raiding England? What is your theory on how these foot
>soldiers got there?
>To be even more specific: Are you saying that there is NO land route
>that you could walk or drive between London and Paris, IF you were
>willing to spend a lot of time and go out of your way?
I suspect we're looking at a Caro word game here but for the life of
me I don't see how I can lose here. But before I take you up can I
check on a few definitions?
We are now connected to mainland Europe by the Channel tunnel through
which it would be possible to walk but I assume this man made
structure is excluded from the discussion. Am I correct? For my part I
won't enforce the strict definition of a land bridge as a strip of
land that animals can cross connecting two _continents_.
Secondly, I assume we talking about the present day and not, for
example, about the end of the last ice age or for some time in the
future outside our life spans.
And thirdly, by walking we are referring to locomotion on land without
artificial breathing aids. This excludes travel by ship, even if you
walk the whole way and walking along the ocean bottom. I'll be
generous and allow wading but no swimming.
England is not an island because it has land borders between Scotland
and Wales but Britain (i.e the land of those three countries) is and
there is no way to travel to Sweden without crossing sea. The Vikings
were, of course, strong seafarers and invaded by longboat.
So if the bet's still open with those qualifiers count me in.
DaveM
John Harkness
>
> Mike Caro wrote in message <35dfaa9f...@nntp.we.mediaone.net>...
> >For most of us, England is loved and we are fond of things British.
>
> of British food in general...
>
> -Quick
That doesn't sound exactly kosher.
John
Jon Shoreman
>> of British food in general...
Its actually called Black Pudding.
Blood Pudding being another example to be included in the
Mike Caro "Language of the USA"
'a bastardised version of English'
Jon Shoreman
>The "rivalry" between England and the States seems to me to be
>one-way. I never met a single "American" who resents Great Britain,
>but I have met many Brits who seem to think this attitude exists.
I never mentioned any sort of "rivalry", and I too do not believe that
any exists. My statements,"geographically challenged" and
"bastardised version of English", may or may not be true but they
were said with a touch of sarcasm (a type of sense of humour
which is typical of the English but often seems lost on the Americans)
>Mike Wrote:
>For most of us, England is loved and we are fond of things British. I
>could have said "tea" instead of "truffles." But, then, I would have
>had to explain that tea comes from India and China and many other
>places.
>
>Jon wrote (in part):
>>>
>"Oh, I forgot, the Americans are geographically challenged, Europe is
>one large land mass, with no distinction between the different
>countries, even though England is part of an Island which is separate
>from the rest of Europe."
><<
>
>Mike Wrote:
>If you CAN walk (or drive) from England to Scotland, and from there to
>Sweden, doesn't that mean that England is, in fact, attached to the
>European continent? I realize that there is water between England and
^^^^^^^ **
>France, but many millions of people have gone from London to Scotland
>and THEN to other European countries. Right?
My inference was that your statement about truffles implied that you
were not distinguishing the cultural differences between two countries.
Truffles being typically French, where as Fox Hunting and afternoon tea
is typically English.
Of course England is attached to main land Europe. Land does exist
underneath the sea.
But to walk from England to Sweden, without going through the channel
tunnel, or getting very wet by walking across the sea bed, or by catching
a boat and walking on deck, is impossible.
Rather than give cryptic messages that imply that you think you can, why
not just tell us.
>By the way, one thing we Americans seldom tolerate is any
>disrespectful comment targeting "America's Mad Genius." We generally
>excuse this one time, in light of foreign ignorance of our customs. It
>is not the person we are honoring, in this regard. It is the office.
^^^^^^^^ **
There seem to be more Americans bashing the Mad Genius than
any other country.
How did you become appointed to the Office of Mad Genius?
Was it by vote? If so, when is the next election due, and who
is aloud to vote?
**
NB realize, honoring two words for inclusion in the Mike Caro
"Language of the USA"
'a bastardised version of English'
I've just had a good idea. You could advertise this new dictionary as
26 part volume. Get people to pay for all 26 instalments and after
you've published issues 1 and 2, forget about the rest.
Some people will not bother to ask for a refund and you'll make
quite a bit of money for very little effort.
Good scam, don't you think.
Jon Shoreman
Gambler103
With this thread, I am now learning about Geography,
History, and even Food Recipes.
Before all I got was Poker, Humor, Math, Language,
and Ethics lessions.
Who ever said poker was not educational? <grin, added for
the humor impared>
.
Paul,
Gambl...@aol.com
Personal Motto: Don't give up the ship.............until I get off !
Gambling Motto: These are my opinions today.
Tomorrow, hopefully I’ll be wiser.
Grant Denn
There's land, it's just covered with water.
It's easier to wait for the next ice age (if there is another one.)
G
--
Grant 'R' Denn Dept. Physics/Astronomy University of Iowa
http://www-astro.physics.uiowa.edu/~grd/
!!! Buy the "Aquarius" card game at !!!
http://www.wunderland.com/LooneyLabs/Aquarius/Aquarius.html
Mike Caro
>I never mentioned any sort of "rivalry", and I too do not believe that
>any exists. My statements,"geographically challenged" and
>"bastardised version of English", may or may not be true but they
>were said with a touch of sarcasm (a type of sense of humour
>which is typical of the English but often seems lost on the Americans)
I correctly interpreted your comments as "sarcasm," laughed a little,
and then responded by "playing along," which is an American form of
humor (I mean, humour, sorry).
For the record, I stand behind all my geographical comments in this
thread.
>How did you become appointed to the Office of Mad Genius?
>Was it by vote? If so, when is the next election due, and who
>is aloud to vote?
Anybody is allowed to vote, and I would feel very honored if I could
count on yours.
>I've just had a good idea. You could advertise this new dictionary as
>26 part volume. Get people to pay for all 26 instalments and after
>you've published issues 1 and 2, forget about the rest.
>Some people will not bother to ask for a refund and you'll make
>quite a bit of money for very little effort.
>Good scam, don't you think.
Now, see, THAT'S clever. Unfortunately, if I did the dictionary
project, the first 13 of the 26 volumes would be released late, and
the second 13 would be released extremely late. I would feel so bad
that I would make special 90-percent off apology deals to subscribers
-- deals that cost me more to ship and produce than the amount
charged, it would be a money-losing endeavor from day one, and I would
swear never to undertake such a project again. Of course, this resolve
wouldn't last long.
I appreciate your comments and your humor. About England, the water,
and the drive to Sweden... Please reread all the statements I made
(and questions I raised), and tell me which ones are specifically
untrue.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
>
>Jon Shoreman
>
>
Mike Caro
OK, I'm done with this now. Background: This all started as a poker
discussion about whether near silence should be the rule while playing
a hand. I don't think so. But in England, some clubs have discouraged
or outlawed commentary about your hand during play (whether you speak
lies or truth).
You wrote (in part, responding to my geographical comments about a
land route between England and the European continent):
>>
"So if the bet's still open with those qualifiers count me in."
<<
Bet's still open, but you don't want it.
What I posted was just my way of having fun with someone who was
teasing about Americans being geographically challenged. If you
carefully reread what I posted, you will see that there are a lot of
questions, and some statements -- all of which are accurate.
I wrote:
>>
If you CAN walk (or drive) from England to Scotland, and from there to
Sweden, doesn't that mean that England is, in fact, attached to the
European continent?
<<
Yes, it does mean that. However, you CANNOT walk (or drive) from
Scotland to Sweden.
I wrote:
>>
I realize that there is water between England and France..
<<
As you do...
I wrote:
>>
..., but many millions of people have gone from London to Scotland
and THEN to other European countries. Right?
<<
Sounds right to me.
I wrote:
>>:
Besides, I just reread my message carefully and what I said regarding
being able to walk or drive from England to Sweden, by way of
Scotland, is true.
<<
Correct. What I said is true. That you can walk or drive from England
to Sweden is not true, but who said it was?
I wrote:
>>
There are land bridges in several parts of the
world to which many are oblivious.
<<
Right. There are.
I wrote:
>>
I STAND BY MY WORDS RELATING TO THE LAND CROSSING BETWEEN ENGLAND AND
EUROPE. I WILL COVER ALL BETS, DESPITE YOUR ARGUMENTS.
<<
Nothing new here.
I wrote:
>>
Just so we don't misunderstand each other. I realize that there is a
lot of water between the coast of England and the coast of Europe.
<<
I'll bet you realize that, too. :-)
I wrote:
>>
I even know about the English Channel. I know about the Chunnel
between Folkestone and Calais, too.
<<
After all, it's been pretty well publicized.
I wrote:
>>
But, are you telling me that England is NOT linked by land to Sweden,
through Scotland, to the NORTH???
<<
A question. I assume that's what you're telling me, but let's just
make sure you know this fact. See?
I wrote:
>>
Wouldn't that make England an ISLAND, completely surrounded by water?
<<
Just a question. Actually, England is on an island, but isn't the
whole island. But, it's a question to you, so it really doesn't matter
how you answer.
I wrote:
>>
If that were the case, wouldn't the fact be widely known worldwide,
even by us "geographically challenged" Americans?
<<
It probably would be known to most of us. Most educated Americans
realize that England is separate from the European mainland.
I wrote:
>>
Have you ever heard of the Vikings raiding England?
<<
I'm sure you have.
I wrote:
>>
What is your theory on how these foot soldiers got there?
<<
I think they got there by sea. How did you answer?
I wrote:
>>
To be even more specific: Are you saying that there is NO land route
that you could walk or drive between London and Paris, IF you were
willing to spend a lot of time and go out of your way?
<<
I hope that's what you're saying. It is, in fact, what I would say if
someone asked me that question..
YOU wrote:
>>
I suspect we're looking at a Caro word game here but for the life of
me I don't see how I can lose here.
<<
Now?
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
jac...@xmission.com
Might as well go fishing on Lake Tahoe ;-)
--
Steve Jacobs (jac...@xmission.com) \ Do you play Video Poker? Try VP Freebie
"Expectation isn't everything..." \ http://www.conjelco.com/vpfreebie.html
dennis driscoll
otherwise) of cheating in tournaments has been lost. Maybe that was the
intent of some of the original wander off the subject posters. Oh my
god! another conspiracy theory. I'm so ashamed of myself. DD
NoFlop
Mike Caro wrote in message <35ed3c33....@nntp.we.mediaone.net>...
>
>But, are you telling me that England is NOT linked by land to Sweden,
>ISLAND, completely surrounded by water? If that were the case,
>wouldn't the fact be widely known worldwide, even by us
>Vikings raiding England? What is your theory on how these foot
>soldiers got there?
Good grief! PATHETIC!
I really suspect that Doug Grant is posting under the name of Mike Caro in
this thread. Matters closed from my side.
NoFlop
Mike Caro
You wrote (in part):
>>
Might as well go fishing on Lake Tahoe ;-)
<<
Good advice. But, I've got a bite on EVERY line right now! I think
it's the new $29.95 lures from the infomercial. They actually work.
And to think, If I'd said, "And, yes, I'm kidding," instead of "And,
no, I'm not kidding," in several places, I wouldn't be having nearly
as much fun on this vacation. ;-)
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Purplvegas
discussion about whether near silence should be the rule while playing
a hand. I don't think so. But in England, some clubs have discouraged
or outlawed commentary about your hand during play (whether you speak
lies or truth).>>>>
Discouraging or outlawing commentary about your hand during play sounds like
real poker to me!!!
Mike Caro
Thanks for sharing this about yourself. There's a very good chance
that you'll grow out of it. Don't worry.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
David Monaghan
>David --
>OK, I'm done with this now. Background: This all started as a poker
>discussion about whether near silence should be the rule while playing
>a hand. I don't think so. But in England, some clubs have discouraged
>or outlawed commentary about your hand during play (whether you speak
>lies or truth).
>You wrote (in part, responding to my geographical comments about a
>land route between England and the European continent):
>"So if the bet's still open with those qualifiers count me in."
>Bet's still open, but you don't want it.
<Snip detailed explanation>
>YOU wrote:
>I suspect we're looking at a Caro word game here but for the life of
>me I don't see how I can lose here.
>Now?
<Reddening perceptibly>
I hang my head in embarrassment. I thought your posts were phrased a
bit strangely but missed the point completely. Would you believe I've
being checking every reference I could find to make sure there wasn't
some minor island in the Shetlands or Hebrides (Ceded to Scotland from
Norway in 1472 and 1266 respectively) that was overlooked and still
remains technically Scandinavian whilst de facto British? Doh!!!
DaveM
greatbrit
> ...
> How did you become appointed to the Office of Mad Genius?
> Was it by vote? If so, when is the next election due, and who
> is aloud to vote?
>
> **
> NB realize, honoring two words for inclusion in the Mike Caro
> "Language of the USA" 'a bastardised version of English'
>
Hey Mike, don't forget to add *aloud* to your dictionary.
BTW, isn't there an airport in Scotland?