Cows and Pigs and Sheep and Chickens, Near-NW Boston?
Charles Demas
In article <34268E69...@somtel.com>,
L. Bruce Hills <lbr...@somtel.com> wrote:
>Betsy Schwartz wrote:
>>
>> Where's a good place to take a nine-month-old where she can get up close to
>> some farm animals? It doesn't have to be fancy, we just want to show her
>> what they look like and let her spend some uncrowded time staring at them.
>>
>> We're in Arlington so the Near Northwest is our first choice.
>>
>> Kid's books are full of cows and pigs and sheep and chickens and I wonder
>> what a city baby makes of it all sometimes.
>>
>> --
>> bet...@shore.net http://www.shore.net/~betsys
>> bet...@cs.umb.edu http://www.cs.umb.edu/~betsys
>>
>
>Take the kid to the fair!
>
>Not sure where you're at, but I grew up in MA and remember that there
>was usually a fair going on somewhere around this time of year. They
>almost *always* have a kid's petting zoo with all sorts of animals.
>
>Around here, there's one going on somewhere usually every weekend in
>August through mid-October.
>
>Bruce in Maine
Right now The Big E, aka The Eastern States Exposition is going on in
West Springfield, Massachusetts. It ends this Sunday. Here's a URL:
The Eastern States Exposition
http://www.thebige.com/
It's a huge affair, and there are 4-H contests. There are Animal barns
where the animals can be seen etc. Unfortunately it's probably not
what you're looking to do with your a 9 month old. There is also a
good zoo and petting zoo at Forest Park in Springfield. This too is
a bit far to travel with a baby, but if you're near there, keep it in
mind. It could make a nice day trip. Springfield has some nice
Museums (free) too. As a kid, growing up in Springfield, I always
liked the Natural History Museum.
Does Franklin Park have a petting zoo? There's a company in Canton,
Mass that has some cows (Swiss) on the property. And then there's
Sturbridge Village. Is the Stone Zoo still open? Do they have a
petting zoo?
Chuck Demas
Needham, Mass.
--
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Barry Shein
From: Betsy Schwartz <bet...@shore.net>
>Kid's books are full of cows and pigs and sheep and chickens and I wonder
>what a city baby makes of it all sometimes.
dinner.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | b...@world.std.com | http://www.std.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Marc Dashevsky
In article <nuilo0p...@shell2.shore.net>,
Betsy Schwartz <bet...@shore.net> wrote:
>Where's a good place to take a nine-month-old where she can get up close to
>some farm animals? It doesn't have to be fancy, we just want to show her
>what they look like and let her spend some uncrowded time staring at them.
>
>We're in Arlington so the Near Northwest is our first choice.
My kids always liked Drumlin Farm in Lincoln. It's run by the
Audubon Society. They also offer hayrides, pulled by two mules,
for $1.00/person.
--
Marc Dashevsky -- Remove '_' from address if replying by e-mail.
Patrick Tufts
Betsy Schwartz <bet...@shore.net> writes:
>Where's a good place to take a nine-month-old where she can get up close to
>some farm animals? It doesn't have to be fancy, we just want to show her
>what they look like and let her spend some uncrowded time staring at them.
Drumlin Farm in Concord is quite nice. They have chickens, pigs,
sheep, deer, and horses. They also have some non-farm animals: birds
of prey, foxes, raccoons, and deer.
--Pat
Betsy Schwartz
b...@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
>
>
> From: Betsy Schwartz <bet...@shore.net>
> >Kid's books are full of cows and pigs and sheep and chickens and I wonder
> >what a city baby makes of it all sometimes.
>
> dinner.
>
<grin> not this baby! She's vegetarian like her daddy. Vegetarian + seafood
anyway. WE should take her to the Aquarium too!
If this looks funny I'm typing with the baby on my lap!
L. Bruce Hills
Betsy Schwartz wrote:
>
> Where's a good place to take a nine-month-old where she can get up close to
> some farm animals? It doesn't have to be fancy, we just want to show her
> what they look like and let her spend some uncrowded time staring at them.
>
>
> what a city baby makes of it all sometimes.
>
> bet...@shore.net http://www.shore.net/~betsys
> bet...@cs.umb.edu http://www.cs.umb.edu/~betsys
>
Take the kid to the fair!
Donna Sullivan
I've read the other responses and this is my opinion.
The Eastern States Expo in West Springfield is big, very crowded, and you
may have to deal with long traffic delays. Not really for a nine-month
old.
Old Sturbridge Village is nice but you won't be able to get close to the
animals (usually). I've worked there and it's a wonderful place but not
really the place for a baby to meet and pet animals.
Drumlin Farm (one of the Mass. Audubon Sanctuaries) in Concord on Rt 117
(maybe over the Lincoln line) is probably just right. It is small and
manageable and usually has lots of animals for viewing and petting.
The idea of other smaller Fairs in local towns might also be good. Most
have a petting area and if you pick a small fair you should have lots of
chances to introduce baby to the animals.
Sounds like a lucky baby.
Donna Sullivan
iIn article <nuilo0p...@shell2.shore.net>, Betsy Schwartz
<bet...@shore.net> wrote:
> Where's a good place to take a nine-month-old where she can get up close to
> some farm animals? It doesn't have to be fancy, we just want to show her
> what they look like and let her spend some uncrowded time staring at them.
>
> We're in Arlington so the Near Northwest is our first choice.
>
> Kid's books are full of cows and pigs and sheep and chickens and I wonder
> what a city baby makes of it all sometimes.
>
> --
> bet...@shore.net http://www.shore.net/~betsys
> bet...@cs.umb.edu http://www.cs.umb.edu/~betsys
>
Adam M Gaffin
A bit of a hike from Arlington, but if you're in the neigborhood...
The Natick Community Farm has lots of smallish animals (like rabbits). If
you're lucky, and you drive in via Rte. 16 from Wellesley, you'll see the
Hunnemoos, the cows owned by the Hunnewell family, who are as close to
landed gentry as Wellesley gets (but I digress).
--
Adam Gaffin
ad...@world.std.com / (508) 820-7433
The Wicked Good Guide to Boston English
http://www.std.com/NE/glossary.html
P McCarthy
Topsfield Fair dates October 4-13.
--
Phil McCarthy
New eMail address is pmcc...@mediaone.net
New HomePage address http://pmccarthy.ne.mediaone.net/
http://ni.umd.edu/gnttype/www/buick.html
Brian Bay
Betsy Schwartz wrote:
>
> Where's a good place to take a nine-month-old where she can get up close to
> some farm animals? It doesn't have to be fancy, we just want to show her
> what they look like and let her spend some uncrowded time staring at them.
>
> We're in Arlington so the Near Northwest is our first choice.
>
> Kid's books are full of cows and pigs and sheep and chickens and I wonder
> what a city baby makes of it all sometimes.
If you really want to check out some cool stuff, check out the Stone Zoo
in Stoneham. It's right off route 28 near Spot Pond. I'm not sure if
it's still open but it's not that expensive (state run) but they have an
Aviary and other things. I don't think they have cows, Pigs or Sheep but
it's a thought anyway.
--Cheers,
Brian
P McCarthy
Also a place in Ipswich,Ma on route 133. I think it's called "Ipswich
Alive"
Betsy Schwartz
Where's a good place to take a nine-month-old where she can get up close to
some farm animals? It doesn't have to be fancy, we just want to show her
what they look like and let her spend some uncrowded time staring at them.
We're in Arlington so the Near Northwest is our first choice.
Kid's books are full of cows and pigs and sheep and chickens and I wonder
what a city baby makes of it all sometimes.
--
Ron Newman
In article <6064jo$t...@fridge.shore.net>, EskWIRED <eskw...@shore.net> wrote:
> Betsy Schwartz <bet...@shore.net> wrote:
> : Where's a good place to take a nine-month-old where she can get up close to
> : some farm animals? It doesn't have to be fancy, we just want to show her
> : what they look like and let her spend some uncrowded time staring at them.
>
> Try Drumlin Farms in Weston? Sudbury? Wayland?
Three shots but still missed the target.... it's in Lincoln, off Route 117.
--
Ron Newman rne...@thecia.net
http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/
Robert Winters
Betsy Schwartz wrote:
>
> Where's a good place to take a nine-month-old where she can get up close to
> some farm animals? It doesn't have to be fancy, we just want to show her
> what they look like and let her spend some uncrowded time staring at them.
There's a place in Natick called, I believe, Overlook Farm. It's owned
by Les Marino, the proprietor of Modern Continental Construction and
Marino's Restaurant on Mass. Ave. in North Cambridge. Not only are there
sheep and pigs and chickens, but buffalo, emu, and a whole lot more. I was
there last winter, so the seasons probably don't matter. We were able to
wander freely through the greenhouses. The emu (one big bird!) pecked my
friend in the head when she went where she shouldn't oughta been.
I believe that they supply some of the food for the restaurant from this
farm. I'll look for emu on the menu next time. Helluva neck on that bird.
Robert Winters
Robert F Underhill
Then there's that little pond at MDC's Waverly Oaks reservation with
really tame ducks, geese and swans.
And there ARE farm animals in Boston. There are lots of big backyards in
the City with chickens and pigs, at least.
For a little trip (and it may be only open seasonally- there's the animal
farm and zoo at York Beach, Maine.
--
Bob Of Boston
Box 114, 89 Union Park Street (617)451-2703
Boston, MA 02118-2474 por...@world.std.com
"Vivite et amate semper suspicientos"
Ron Newman
In article <EGyoC...@world.std.com>, che...@world.std.com (David S
Chesler) wrote:
> In article <nuilo0p...@shell2.shore.net>,
> Betsy Schwartz <bet...@shore.net> wrote:
> >Where's a good place to take a nine-month-old where she can get up close to
> >some farm animals? It doesn't have to be fancy, we just want to show her
> >what they look like and let her spend some uncrowded time staring at them.
>
> I won't be going back to Drumlin Farm, in Lex^h^h^h^h Walth^h^h^h^h
> Worce^h^h^h^h well just take 117 :-), because of their anti-gun
> poliics, but it is rather pretty for a non-working model farm.
Huh? I think it's perfectly reasonable to prohibit visitors from
bringing guns onto the property of a petting zoo or farm.
Dale Smoak
che...@world.std.com (David S Chesler) writes:
> I won't be going back to Drumlin Farm, in Lex^h^h^h^h Walth^h^h^h^h
> Worce^h^h^h^h well just take 117 :-), because of their anti-gun
> poliics, but it is rather pretty for a non-working model farm.
What, you can't take guns into Drumlin Farm?!? No hunting?? Sheesh...
:-)
--
Dale Smoak | da...@shore.net
| http://www.shore.net/~dales/
Donna Sullivan
Drumlin Farm is part of Mass. Audubon. It is not just a farm but also a
wildlife sanctuary. The no guns rule is appropriate. What on earth was
your objection?
Donna Sullivan
Donna Sullivan
In article <jx1raag...@shell2.shore.net>, Dale Smoak
Adam M Gaffin
In article <EGyyv...@world.std.com>,
Robert F Underhill <por...@world.std.com> wrote:
>Then there's that little pond at MDC's Waverly Oaks reservation with
>really tame ducks, geese and swans.
Wellesley Town Hall at the confluence of routes 16 and 135 has a nice
duck/geese pond.
d...@cs.brandeis.edu
In article <6068p9$168$1...@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>,
zi...@cs.brandeis.edu (Patrick Tufts) wrote:
>
> Betsy Schwartz <bet...@shore.net> writes:
> >Where's a good place to take a nine-month-old where she can get up close to
> >some farm animals? It doesn't have to be fancy, we just want to show her
> >what they look like and let her spend some uncrowded time staring at them.
>
One of our favorites is Honey Pot Hill orchards in Stow. They mainly sell
apples (and pears ...), but have a few animals: 3 pigs (with appropriate
houses) a few sheep, goats, rabbits, and often some fowl.
If you want to see unusual breeds (and a lot more animals), try Davis
Farmland in Sterling. They keep weird breeds in order to maintain
genetic diversity for farm animals. Odd breeds of all the usual farm
animals (sheep, goats, cows, horses, pigs) and a few non-farm animals
(peacocks ...). You can walk in the cages of the tamer animals. It's a
lot bigger than either Drummlin farms or Honeypot hill. For a 9-month
old, pick either the closest one of the one you'll enjoy most; she won't
care.
--David Wittenberg
d...@cs.brandeis.edu
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Robert F Underhill
Franklin Park Zoo.
Aldo Pignotti
Patrick Tufts wrote:
> Response 2: Oh, god. Not the interminable handgun thread again.
>
need I say it? oh, what the heck.. brothers, sisters, we have got
to get together and defend our right to arm bears.
Roger Williams
In <EH12M...@world.std.com> David S Chesler <che...@world.std.com> wrote:
: There's nothing wrong with a no-hunting rule on the wildlife
: sanctuary -- they do their own wildlife management. I won't ask
: how they think Mr. Audobon got those birds to stay long enough
: that he could paint them...
The same way Teddy Roosevelt did- with a slingshot. Shooting
sparrows and larks with a gun is a terrible way to retrieve an
intact corpse.
: The objection is to a general no guns rule, even for persons
: licensed by the Commonwealth to carry guns for the protection
: of life and property. As it is unlawful to leave ones handguns
: unattended in a parked car, such a rule means that anyone who
: chooses to visit must rely on brute force, or the goodness of
: others for the safety of themselves and their loved ones, for
: the duration of the outing.
Oh for Christ's sakes, I can't recall the last time I heard
anything so ridiculous or melodramatic. This is a bird sanctuary
in Lincoln, a town that makes Weston look like a hotbed of urban
violence and mayhem by comparison. Feeling ...under siege are we,
David?
: When I asked the Audobon Society
: about this last year, they said that they relied on the Lincoln
: Police Department for their security. That's fine for them, but
: it's no guarantee for their visitors, some of whom don't live in Lincoln.
Yes, Chesler, I can see where the gritty urban jungle that is Woburn
has you feeling the need to pack heat in the well to do 'burbs, but
(once again) you're barking up the wrong tree. Expecting trouble from
some local squirrels, skippy?
: What harm are they trying to prevent with this policy?
: Why is a no guns rule appropriate on a wildlife sanctuary?
What a fantastic line of reasoning. You know, I think I'll see about
bringing a gun to the New England Aquarium. I can't count on the security
guards and Boston police to protect me, and I sure as hell don't like the
way that harbor seal is looking at me.
: David Chesler (che...@world.std.com, etc.)
: http://world.std.com/~chesler (try /riverbay.html or /paddleball.html)
: "Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem"
By the sword, or the gun? Say, have you considered moving to Cow Hampshire?
--
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{} Roger W. {} 0< -- alt.usenet.kooks!
{} http://www.parrot.net ad...@parrot.net {} ^^^^(*)^^^^
{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} ^^ / \ ^^
Dale Smoak
ad...@world.std.com (Adam M Gaffin) writes:
> Perhaps they don't like the idea of guns being around all
> the little kids who frequent the place? Have you tried
> calling Disneyworld to see if you can bring a gun with
> you there?
Maybe there could be an addition to Boston Online that lists where you
can take both your kids and your guns. I'd like to know, because it
would help me make better choices about where I want to take my
daughter.
:-|
Adam M Gaffin
In article <EH12M...@world.std.com>,
David S Chesler <che...@world.std.com> wrote:
>
> The objection is to a general no guns rule, even for persons
>licensed by the Commonwealth to carry guns for the protection
>of life and property. As it is unlawful to leave ones handguns
>unattended in a parked car, such a rule means that anyone who
>chooses to visit must rely on brute force, or the goodness of
>others for the safety of themselves and their loved ones, for
>Police Department for their security. That's fine for them, but
>it's no guarantee for their visitors, some of whom don't live in Lincoln.
Ohmigod, I know you've had some bad experiences, but
have you ever been to Lincoln? We're not talking South Bronx here.
>
> What harm are they trying to prevent with this policy?
>Why is a no guns rule appropriate on a wildlife sanctuary?
Perhaps they don't like the idea of guns being around all
the little kids who frequent the place? Have you tried
calling Disneyworld to see if you can bring a gun with
you there?
Christopher Davis
[followups re-aimed]
DS> == Donna Sullivan <su...@mathworks.com>
DS> People with guns scare me to death. I feel much safer in any place
DS> (in this case the Audubon Sanctuary) where people are not allowed
DS> to carry guns. I'm glad you are not going back.
Maybe you shouldn't eat at seafood restaurants frequented by senior
citizens, then.
Today's Boston Globe [obNE] contains a rather interesting story, which
is also available on the web:
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe/globehtml/268/Senior_citizens_shoot_suspect_tryin.htm
Apparently in Jacksonville, FL, if you try to rob a restaurant full of
senior citizens by pointing a shotgun at the waitress, you are likely to
be shot by a law-abiding but gun-owning patron.
You may feel safer if the law-abiding patrons can't bring their guns,
but I suspect the waitress might disagree with you.
--
Christopher Davis <c...@kei.com> <URL: http://www.kei.com/homepages/ckd/ >
Geographic locations in DNS! <URL: http://www.kei.com/homepages/ckd/dns-loc/ >
Donna Sullivan
Is this hopefully another place that prohibits guns or are you saying you
can take guns in there?
I want to know if I can go there safely or if I should avoid it (and the guns.)
Donna Sullivan
>Although some folks suggested that it's called
"Concealed Carry" for a reason, I'll honor
their request (it _is_ their place, they have
the right to make the rules) and take my business
elsewhere. Besides the wildlife in my own back
yard, there's that Krochmal Farms I mentioned.
Their phone is 508-657-5906, their address is
1079 South Street, Tewksbury, MA 01876, and
the directions are I-93 to Dascomb Rd (Exit 42),
west onto Dascomb Rd (left if off I-93 north),
second left to Shawsheen Street, 2.1 miles, then
left onto Bridge Street, second, hard, left
onto South Street, 0.6 miles, right at sign
for 1079 South Street. This section is
also accessible from MA 38, going east from
the old sanitarium.
Roger Williams
In <EH35M...@world.std.com> Kenneth R. Crudup <ken...@world.std.com> wrote:
: In article <sully-25099...@dsullivan.mathworks.com>,
: su...@mathworks.com (Donna Sullivan) says:
: >People with guns scare me to death.
: *sigh*
: Welcome to Massachusetts ....
: -Kenny, who walks the streets late at night in TX w/o a care *because*
: people have concealed-carry (so Joe Criminal doesn't know who he
: might be screwing with)
Indeed. Welcome to Massachusetts! And welcome to the FBI's 1995 crime
in America report (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/crimeus/crimeus.htm), which
inconveniently points out that the rate of violent crime in Texas cities
is worse than in Boston. Let's look at the number of violent crimes per
100,000 inhabitants in the Boston metro area (listed as comprising of
parts of Bristol, Essex, Middlesex, Plymouth, Suffolk, and Worcester counties
in MA, and parts of the southern NH burbs in Rockingham county) ... an area
of an estimated 3,432,914 people.
Per 100,000 inhabitants, Boston garnered the following:
Violent crime: 644.6
Forcible rape: 25
Aggr. assault: 442.5
Oh dear God, I hear you scream. That's horrible! Why, 644.6 violent crimes
spread out over 100,000 people is... uh...
Yes, just over .5 of 1% will report a violent crime in a metro area spanning
from Plymouth, MA to Salem, NH (and west to Worcester) and in a population of
over 3 million people. With numbers like this, I can see why people feel the
need to pack heat at the petting zoos in the country.
BTW, here's how Dallas and Houston fared:
Dallas, TX (including Collin, Dallas, Denton, Ellis, Henderson, Kaufman,
and Rockwall counties). Per 100,000 inhabitants...
Violent crime: 819.2
Forcible rape: 49.9
Aggr. assault: 498.5
Ok. So maybe I'm in more danger in gun totin', armed citizen street
patrolin' Dallas, but Houston's better. Right? Uh....
Houston, TX (including Chambers, Fort Bend, Harris, Liberty, Montgomery, and
Waller counties). Per 100,000 inhabitants...
Violent crime: 856.1
Forcible rape: 42
Aggr. assault: 494.2
Well, at least your wife or girlfriend is less likely to be raped while she's
being beaten/shot at in Houston than she is in Dallas.
So, YOUR feeling of security aside, where does the Texas' gun slingin'
concealed weapons liberties translate into lower crime, or fewer murders?
ANSWER: It doesn't.
: --
: Kenneth R. Crudup, Unix & OS/2 Software Consultant, Scott County Consulting
: ke...@panix.com CI$: 75032,3044 +1 617 524 5929/4949 Home/Office
: 16 Plainfield St, Boston, MA 02130-3633 +1 617 983 9410 Fax
: OS/2 box: pkenny.tiac.net Realize the magic of Merlin! OS/2 4.0 is here NOW!
Kenneth R. Crudup
In article <60duab$j...@fridge.shore.net>, EskWIRED <eskw...@shore.net> says:
>Personally, I'd rather give my wallet to a robber than kill him.
I think he's a useless blight on society, and He Will Not Be Missed.
-Kenny
Kenneth R. Crudup
>People with guns scare me to death.
*sigh*
Welcome to Massachusetts ....
-Kenny, who walks the streets late at night in TX w/o a care *because*
people have concealed-carry (so Joe Criminal doesn't know who he
might be screwing with)
--
Kenneth R. Crudup
> So, YOUR feeling of security aside, where does the Texas' gun slingin'
>concealed weapons liberties translate into lower crime, or fewer murders?
> ANSWER: It doesn't.
Regardless, people don't break into houses in my father's neighborhood.
That's a fact.
Wait- that's a lie- he told me about the guy who did a couple of doors down.
RIP.
-Kenny
Bill Sommerfeld
Your comparison is only relevant if the only significant difference
between Boston and Houston or Dallas is the ready availability of
concealed carry permits.
Try throwing Washington, DC into the mix; I think you'll find that the
crime stats of the two "few legal guns" cities will straddle the crime
stats of the two "more legal guns" cities.
- Bill
Dale Smoak
I know David's trying to argue on principle, but given the
context--Drumlin Farms, in Lincoln, Massachusetts--lampooning the
argument rather than engaging it is a truer reflection as to what I
actually think of it. In Drumlin Farms, I would consider licensed
carriers of guns (yes, I remember they prohibit guns) a more likely
danger to me, due to the possibility of accident or bad judgement,
than the people the licensed carriers of guns are trying to protect
themselves from. So I'm saying, yeah, I hear your principle, and I
know you have to go on big bad rt 2 to get there and all, but I think
your principle defies common sense.
"Coming up at 11, Drumlin Farms crime statistics!"
Charles Demas
In article <342c66af...@news.tiac.net>,
John Polcari <jpol...@bstone.com> wrote:
>On 26 Sep 1997 11:17:30 -0400, Betsy Schwartz <bet...@shore.net>
>wrote:
>
>>I wouldn't feel too bad about unrestricted gun ownership if all gun owners
>>were experienced, careful, cautious Libertarians with very rigourous
>>personal standards and who were very conscientious about gun safety.
>
>
>"An armed society is a polite society" -Robert Heinlein
John,
I'd bet your favorite Heinlein novel is "Starship Troopers,"
which was is also my favorite Heinlein novel.
Chuck Demas
Needham, Ma.
--
Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all,
Stay Fit | @ @ | If a man waited to do it so well,
Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.
de...@tiac.net | \___/ | http://www.tiac.net/users/demas
Betsy Schwartz
David,
it's hard to understand how the blame rests anywhere but on the gunman who
shot the woman in her backyard. Doesn't *his* responsibility include
distinguishing between the woods and private property? Also, I don't
recall, but was he soboer not to have noticed that there was a house in the
background?
Roger Williams
In <EH4Lv...@world.std.com> David S Chesler <che...@world.std.com> wrote:
: In article <60ef6f$8...@news-central.tiac.net>,
: Roger Williams <ad...@parrot.net> wrote:
: > The woman should have been wearing a reflective piece of federal safety
: >orange clothing. It wasn't the hunter's fault he shot her; she was a dead
: >(and I do mean dead) ringer for a deer.
: Apparently she was -- dressed in a suede jacket and white gloves.
: That _is_ asking for trouble in the woods in the deer season. Just
: as it's asking for trouble to dress in black and stand in the middle
: of a dark street at night.
Uh, Chesler? It was in her own frigging back yard. Your assertion that
anything less than hanging a flashing neon sign that said "I'M NOT A
MOOSE- PLEASE DON'T GUN ME DOWN RIGHT OUTSIDE MY HOUSE" would make her
responsible is ridiculous- at least in places that have more oxygen than
lead in the drinking water. Think they can find 12 people in Maine not
afraid of losing their right to shoot anything that moves in the woods simply
because people are too stupid to play with guns? Would you tolerate your
wife or kids being gunned down in front of your street at night by someone
who thought their black jacket "looked suspicious"?
Of course not, and in States that have (IMHO) a slightly more enlightened
attitude towards gun mayhem, he'd be in jail for ten years for manslaughter.
Idiocy + the 2nd amendment != freedom from responsibility, nor should it.
This country has become so terrified of losing the right to carry a gun
where and whenever it chooses, that it's interpreted the 2nd amendment in
some truly frightening ways.
Does anyone find it even vaguely plausible that this woman's right not
to be shot down like an animal on her own property by an idiot is more
important than his "right" to shoot in the woods? What did his inspired
idiocy have to do with the keeping a people's militia?
A: Not a thing.
: >: You may feel safer if the law-abiding patrons can't bring their guns,
: >: but I suspect the waitress might disagree with you.
: >
: > Oh I agree *100%*! I'm soooo glad the guy at Luby's cafeteria in Texas
: >felt as free to sow his 2nd Amendment oats as he felt necessary. Did you
: >see the way all those people he shot LOOKED at him? I can see his need
: >for a little pre-emptive self defense.
: George Hennard's crime was not in the keeping and bearing of arms, any more
: than John Salvi's crime was in exercising his 1st Amendment rights in
: opposing abortion. Hennard's crime was murder.
Ob Darth Vader: Charlton Heston has taught you well, young jedi!
I'd really like to see him kill an entire cafeteria full of people with a
knife or a sharp stick (one of the NRA's favorite canard's is that all violent
crimes commited with guns are "inevitable" since they were bound to kill
someone with something anyways... it tends to fall down when it involves
mass murders, but oh well...).
: On the other hand,
: Dr. Suzanna Gratia was in Luby's, and watched her parents killed
: (her father tried to take on Hennard unarmed). She reports that
: she went to her purse for her gun before she realized that she
: had left it in her glove compartment, in accordance with then
: Texas law. If she had had a gun with her, if anyone had had
: a gun on the LIRR the day Colin Ferguson committed his murders,
: how many lives would have been saved?
I'll see your straw man, and raise you one- how many more people would
have been killed in the crossfire from everyone who wanted to play the hero?
Now, the FBI (what do they know about violent crime, anyways?) inconveniently
points out that more people are killed by handgun assaults than saved by them.
There are other countries that have the right to an armed populace (every man
in Switzerland has a gun in the house), yet without the shocking gun murder
rates.
What could explain this?
The complete and utter inability of America's brain damaged populace
to control weapons like civilized people.
: > You know, once upon a time, America could almost reponsibly manage
: >to keep and bear arms.
: >
: > About 220 + years ago.
: There are over a hundred million gun owners in America today, owning
: over two hundred million guns -- they seem to be doing so very
: responsibly right now.
Except when things go notoriously wrong. I'd like to hold off the Feds
for a week by throwing kitchen knives and molotov cocktails out the window.
: We seem to have different views of our fellow citizens. I figure
: most of them are trustworthy and law-abiding, with a few criminals
: among them. You seem unable to distinguish between the law-abiding
: and the criminals.
Not at all. However, your complaint about about being asked not to bring
a gun into a bird sanctuary illustrates to me what's gone wrong with gun
ownership in America. When forced to choose between having to deal with an
agressively criminal super-minority of gun using criminals, and a nervous,
gun toting populace that sees someone to blow away behind every bush, I
believe Americans have lost the ability to use guns with good sense.
The very minute I get upset/irate about being asked to check my
guns at a bird sanctuary, I sincerely hope someone shoots me in
a bit of pre-emptive self defense. Anyone recall the Japanese exchange
student shot down in cold blood in Louisiana by someone who thought
he "looked menacing" and was disturbed by his funny accent while he
was trick or treating on Halloween? Anyone remember a jury of 12 like
minded Foghorn Leghorn's letting him off the hook?
You seem fond of the "what if your loved one was in danger" red herring,
Dave, so let me give you one...
How would YOU feel watching an idiot that blew your kid away because
he "felt threatened" walk out of court without even so much as a manslaughter
conviction? I guess you could always snuggle up with the 2nd amendment
afterwards. And as we all know know from the 18th amendment to the BOR
that the Constition is worth dying, and killing for.
: --
: David Chesler (che...@world.std.com, etc.)
: http://world.std.com/~chesler (try /riverbay.html or /paddleball.html)
: "Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem"
--
Carl Witthoft
In article <jx1u3fa...@shell2.shore.net>, Dale Smoak
<da...@shore.net> wrote:
> ad...@world.std.com (Adam M Gaffin) writes:
>
> > Perhaps they don't like the idea of guns being around all
> > the little kids who frequent the place? Have you tried
> > calling Disneyworld to see if you can bring a gun with
> > you there?
>
> Maybe there could be an addition to Boston Online that lists where you
> can take both your kids and your guns. I'd like to know, because it
> would help me make better choices about where I want to take my
> daughter.
>
Bet that went right over Chesler's head, eh? :-)
I can't figure that guy out at all.
--
Carl Witthoft(changeDOT) c...@worldDOTstd.com carl@aoaincDOTcom
Pinball maniac, windsurfer, volleyball setter, happy Dad
http://world.std.com/~cgw
Betsy Schwartz
I wouldn't feel too bad about unrestricted gun ownership if all gun owners
were experienced, careful, cautious Libertarians with very rigourous
personal standards and who were very conscientious about gun safety.
--
Charles Demas
In article <EH12M...@world.std.com>,
>sanctuary -- they do their own wildlife management. I won't ask
>how they think Mr. Audobon got those birds to stay long enough
>that he could paint them...
>
>licensed by the Commonwealth to carry guns for the protection
>of life and property. As it is unlawful to leave ones handguns
>unattended in a parked car, such a rule means that anyone who
>chooses to visit must rely on brute force, or the goodness of
>others for the safety of themselves and their loved ones, for
>the duration of the outing. When I asked the Audobon Society
>about this last year, they said that they relied on the Lincoln
>Police Department for their security. That's fine for them, but
>it's no guarantee for their visitors, some of whom don't live in
>Lincoln.
>
>Why is a no guns rule appropriate on a wildlife sanctuary?
I don't understand, why not just unload the gun and put it into
a pouch that you carry with you while there, and not bother telling
them what you're carrying in it.
You could leave the bullets locked in your car's trunk or glove
compartnent until you return if you want to me extra safe in case
you misplaced your pouch.
Without ammunition, a gun is just a piece of metal and any child
finding it couldn't be hurt by it or shoot someone with it.
When you left, you could then resume your "normal" mode of operation.
Rather than questioning the rules (and causing everyone a lot of
aggrevation), isn't it easier to just use a little common sense and
break the "literal" rule and comply with the spirit of what was
intended. If you don't tell them about it, I won't either. %^D
Chuck Demas
Needham, Mass.
Ron Newman
> In <EH4Lv...@world.std.com> David S Chesler <che...@world.std.com> wrote:
> : Apparently she was -- dressed in a suede jacket and white gloves.
> : That _is_ asking for trouble in the woods in the deer season. Just
> : as it's asking for trouble to dress in black and stand in the middle
> : of a dark street at night.
>
> Uh, Chesler? It was in her own frigging back yard.
> [snip]
> Would you tolerate your
> wife or kids being gunned down in front of your street at night by someone
> who thought their black jacket "looked suspicious"?
Not to disagree with your main point, but I believe that David was
saying simply that if you dress in black and stand in the middle of
the street at night, you're likely to be run over by a car (not shot at).
Michael Zarlenga
Kenneth R. Crudup (ken...@world.std.com) wrote:
: Regardless, people don't break into houses in my father's neighborhood.
: That's a fact.
: Wait- that's a lie- he told me about the guy who did a couple of doors down.
: RIP.
In Massachusetts (and Rhode Island), if you shoot a burglar at 3am you
get arrested and dragged before a Grand Jury for a possible reaming.
God forbid if you shoot the criminal in a place that he (or she) would
normally assume is vacated.
We gotta keep burglars safe from danger, don'tcha know.
How's that gas station owner that shot at the two burglars foing these
days? Is the state still busting his balls with a threat of prosecution?
--
-- Mike Zarlenga
finger zarl...@conan.ids.net for PGP public key
Michael Zarlenga
Roger Williams (rog...@shell2.tiac.net) wrote:
: Indeed. Welcome to Massachusetts! And welcome to the FBI's 1995 crime
: in America report (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/crimeus/crimeus.htm), which
: inconveniently points out that the rate of violent crime in Texas cities
: is worse than in Boston. Let's look at the number of violent crimes per
Texas is border state with Mexico, a drug and immigrant smuggling
mecca. What would you expect?
Why not compare Masshacusetts (gun control up the wazoo) with one of
its neighboring states, Vermont, where you can carry a concealed weapon
with no permit? What are their comparative violent crime rates, Roger.
Michael Zarlenga
EskWIRED (eskw...@shore.net) wrote:
: : Nationwide, police shoot the wrong person FIVE TIMES as often as
: : citizens licensed to carry concealed weapons.
: While I dont doubt this factoid's validity, I wonder if its because:
: There are lots more armed cops than armed citizens?
The figure is a %age, so the #f of each shouldn't be a factor.
A lot of the public's perception of guns and gun owners is the result
of media reporting bias.
How many of us heard about the shooting in Lousiana of the Japanese
forerign exchange student looking for the Hallowe'en party about 5
years ago?
Now, how many heard about the Iowa City police officer, Gillaspie,
shooting and killing Eric Shaw in his studio about a year ago? Shaw
was in the studio at night, talking on the phone, cop saw the light
on, assumed a burglary, entered, saw a shadow and fired.
How many people heard about the Iowa City prosecutor deciding to
not even present the case to a Grand Jury, allowing Gillaspie to
resign and leave?
The media bias concering gun owners is incredible. The networks will
go 3,000 miles to bring you the story of a child killed playing Russian
Roulette but neglect children drying in falls, drowings and car acci-
dents 100 miles away.
: Cops are more than five times more likely to be engaged in a
: shootout?
Most credible explanation I've heard is that cops are more likely
to arrive after the crime has begun and not know who the criminal
is when they finally get on the scene.
John Polcari
On 27 Sep 1997 02:08:00 GMT, de...@tiac.net (Charles Demas) wrote:
>>"An armed society is a polite society" -Robert Heinlein
>
>John,
>
>I'd bet your favorite Heinlein novel is "Starship Troopers,"
>which was is also my favorite Heinlein novel.
Ohmygod, ya know, I forgot where it was from. It was Starship Troopers
wasn't it?
Alas, It's been awhile, but I think Stranger In a Strange Land was my
favorite, but hey it was the 60's... I did a lotta drugs. I know I've
read ST however...
I'm headin up for the Attic right now! gotta bring down my Heinlien
collection.
Stay Tuned...
JP3 John Polcari jpol...@bstone.com bigp...@shore.net
--
"and if we was flying any lower, why we'd need sleigh
bells on this thing"-Major TJ"King" Kong
Charles Demas
In article <60jk2m$5ja$1...@paperboy.ids.net>,
Michael Zarlenga <zarl...@conan.ids.net> wrote:
>EskWIRED (eskw...@shore.net) wrote:
>:
>: : Nationwide, police shoot the wrong person FIVE TIMES as often as
>: : citizens licensed to carry concealed weapons.
>
>: While I dont doubt this factoid's validity, I wonder if its because:
>: There are lots more armed cops than armed citizens?
>
>The figure is a %age, so the #f of each shouldn't be a factor.
>
>A lot of the public's perception of guns and gun owners is the result
>of media reporting bias.
>
>
>: Cops are more than five times more likely to be engaged in a
>: shootout?
>
>Most credible explanation I've heard is that cops are more likely
>to arrive after the crime has begun and not know who the criminal
>is when they finally get on the scene.
The police have a stronger belief that their actions will not be
questioned. They are also insured by their employers (us) for the harm
that they might do while on duty.
A private citizen KNOWS that he is will probably be sued if he uses his
weapon (even on a criminal who is committing a crime), and certainly
will be if he injures an innocent party.
In addition, I suspect that the average private concealed weapon
carrying citizen is a better shot and is on average better trained in
the use of the weapon he/she carries than the average police officer.
I also suspect that the private concealed weapon carrying citizen may
have a higher IQ and be better educated than the average policeman.
This is important only in that it might be a measure of how well
a situation will be analyzed. I assume that if an innocent party
was shot it was either an accident, or a failure in judgment.
Michael Zarlenga
Dale Smoak (da...@shore.net) wrote:
: I know David's trying to argue on principle, but given the
: context--Drumlin Farms, in Lincoln, Massachusetts--lampooning the
: argument rather than engaging it is a truer reflection as to what I
: actually think of it. In Drumlin Farms, I would consider licensed
: carriers of guns (yes, I remember they prohibit guns) a more likely
: danger to me, due to the possibility of accident or bad judgement,
: than the people the licensed carriers of guns are trying to protect
: themselves from. So I'm saying, yeah, I hear your principle, and I
Your fear is unfounded.
Nationwide, police shoot the wrong person FIVE TIMES as often as
citizens licensed to carry concealed weapons.
--
H.Selvitella
On 26 Sep 1997 21:27:09 GMT, Roger Williams <rog...@shell2.tiac.net>
wrote:
>In <EH4Lv...@world.std.com> David S Chesler <che...@world.std.com> wrote:
>: In article <60ef6f$8...@news-central.tiac.net>,
>: Roger Williams <ad...@parrot.net> wrote:
>
>: > The woman should have been wearing a reflective piece of federal safety
>: >orange clothing. It wasn't the hunter's fault he shot her; she was a dead
>: >(and I do mean dead) ringer for a deer.
>
>: Apparently she was -- dressed in a suede jacket and white gloves.
>: That _is_ asking for trouble in the woods in the deer season. Just
>: as it's asking for trouble to dress in black and stand in the middle
>: of a dark street at night.
>
> Uh, Chesler? It was in her own frigging back yard. Your assertion that
>anything less than hanging a flashing neon sign that said "I'M NOT A
>MOOSE- PLEASE DON'T GUN ME DOWN RIGHT OUTSIDE MY HOUSE" would make her
>responsible is ridiculous-
There are at least two sides to this question and probably more!
At least two tragedies and possibly more.
Deer hunting, like fishing, is a cultural verite in rural Maine and
should be respected as such.
Legislation restricting the discharge of a firearm within "city"
limits is in effect there as "here".
On the other hand it is a dictum of deer hunting lore that, where
hunting is permitted, target identification is absolutely required
before discharging a weapon.
It is a matter of some pride that a Maine deer hunter carries no more
than one round of (center-fire) ammunition into the hunt. Smoothbore
hunters may carry birdshot as well as buck where grouse may be taken.
Hunters do not go into the woods with the intention of shooting human
beings.
During ( firearms) deer season (there are bow-hunting and black-powder
seasons at different times,) Mainers who reside in, or work or play
in, legal deer hunting areas are very much conscious of the
possibility that an accident could occur. (Nobody ever feels
threatened that they will intentionally be targeted.) In Maine this
consciousness is equivalent to looking twice before crossing the
street here.
Just as there are drivers who read newspapers while driving in
traffic, or apply make-up while driving, or play with their car-phones
while driving,(and God knows what else!) there are surely individuals
in the woods to whom you would want to give a wide berth, and common
sense dictates that anything you can do to identify yourself as an
human being, especially in a thickly wooded area where vision is
obstructed by trees, branches, or thickets , where the terrain is
uneven and contoured with hills and gullies, ridges and berms,
blowdown, slash-piles, and shadows of every description, an area
conducive to misrepresenting the fact that you are in fact a two
legged creature walking, or standing upright, common sense dictates
that you will think twice before stepping into the street as though
there were no concern at all that traffic could be approaching.
To make matters worse (for us--better for deer,) deer are normally
very difficult to "see" against a forest background because of their
coloration (from grey to brown,) and the natural stealth with which
they travel, really, like ghosts, silent and, apparently motionless.
Their legs are thin and sticklike as are the antlers of adult males.
You can look right at a deer, in the woods, and not see it. Not hear
it. Not smell it.
So, in deer-hunting environments common sense dictates that you not
wear clothing that may appear to resemble the coloring of deer. No
deer has ever been known to be colored fluorescent orange.
Children in Maine learn too that, when alarmed, native deer raise
their short tails as a signal to other deer that danger is near.
The underpelt of these deer-tails is snow white.
Hence the name "Whitetailed deer". Whether or not you may be persuaded
to don a fluorescent orange overcoat in these areas, during hunting
season, there is absolutely no question in anybody's mind that it is
an invitation to disaster to wear or carry anything that is, or may
appear to be, white.
A minor concession to reality, like wearing a fluorescent orange cap,
reduces enormously the likelyhood of ever being mistaken for a deer.
Firearms season for deer, in Maine, runs through late autumn, ending
around Thanksgiving. My recollection is that there is no hunting on
Sundays.
Peter Lemmond
Sorry. I failed to see that this stupid thread was cross-posted to
ne.politics and talk.politics.guns, two groups I really have no
interest in following. My apologies to the ne.general folks to
subjecting them to this off-topic junk. Will try to be more careful
in the future...
-Peter
KSMcAnaney
there have been many assumptions that hunters and citizens with firearms
for self defense are all in the same category..........let's not allow
passionate disagreement override clarifying the principle argument.