FUR: A Final Farewell (LONG)
Daphne Lage
"disappearance" from furry fandom, especially since Mailbox Books have been
given notice to discontinue my prints. Not surprising, this has caused some
rumors to be started that I feel should be squelched before they get totally
out of hand. Rumors being rumors though, I don't expect that. As a result, I
have decided to post what will be my only public say in the matter.
Yes, I have left furry fandom.
Rumblings of this decision had been squirming in the pit of my stomach for
about 2 years prior.Only last year have I made the first steps to making
this real. 2000 had been a very trying year for me - much more than I had
anticipated as I am still reeling from its effects. Dissatisfaction with my
artwork coupled with a severe personal crisis left me seriously
re-evaluating the twists and turns my life has taken, and what roads lie
ahead of me. My shoulders weighed heavy with the consequences of decisions I
had made that seemed like good ideas at the time and I no longer wanted that
burden upon me. I began to make small changes that lifted this weight, but
nothing would truly eradicate it unless I did one final thing - remove
myself from the fandom.
Some of you - if not many are probably horrified by this revelation, since
in the past I have on more than one occasion espoused how I would never
leave because of the friendships and camaraderie I have experienced. Like a
good coat, there comes a time when the holes become too big, the fabric
brittle, and the stains much more noticeable and impossible to remove. As a
result, this coat ceased to be comfortable, irritating me with its
inadequacies, making it difficult to present the best of myself.
I do not blame furry fandom for my shortcomings, although I did in the past.
There is a freedom with accepting one's own responsibility for their fates,
something I wish many people in the fandom would do, but that is neither
here nor there, nor any of my concern. I abused the good coat, not taking
care of it when it showed it couldn't handle the wear and tear I forced onto
it. Instead of sewing the split seams, I attacked those who pointed out the
gaps. Then I wondered why it wasn't keeping me as warm and cozy as it used
to when it was new.
I went into furry fandom with the intention of sharing my art and creations
only to feel trapped and suffocated by a sordid reputation I made the
mistake of nurturing. Instead of following my heart's desire, I chose to run
after the fickle amusements of a vocal, wealthier minority. Not only did my
soul suffer from the consequences, I feel the fandom has as well. Instead of
receiving my best, it received what I could get away with, the lowest brow
art I churned out with tiring mediocrity.
My relationships in the fandom did not fare any better. Instead of looking
for the positive lights that would help raise my talents, I hooked up with
the gutter feeders - desperate artists who wallowed in self-pity and hatred,
filling me with catty stories and contempt for other artists I never even
met. I felt myself twist in the darkness, surrounded by uninspired people
with uninspired art. At the time I didn't understand what was happening to
me. I didn't understand why I found myself filled with so much hate - for
furry art, for fans, for artists. All I knew is that I was in a low place.
What I didn't know was that I was about to see I could get lower.
They say sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before you finally see the
light. And sometimes you have to go to extremes to find where you are really
supposed to be.
2000 is a year I never want to relive. Even writing this now is beginning to
become difficult.
TALL TAILS is alive and well and will continue until the story is finished.
It will continue to run in FURRLOUGH until we decide to take on the mantle
of self-publishing again. There are many plans for the title and the
characters therein and I hope many of you continue to follow me on that path
regardless of the fact I am no longer a member of furry fandom. And unlike
some comic book artists, I do not mind if you call TALL TAILS a furry comic.
Just please understand if I personally no longer call it that.
There is another project I have in the works that anyone who has been to the
main page of my domain has gotten a hint of. EGORAVEN is another personal
project that only now I have begun to work on. I certainly don't consider
this title a "furry" comic, not even a funny-animal one since it is more
human based. But animal-people mix freely with the humans and play an
integral role. In fact, my fascination for morph/human cross-relationships
is the very reason the story exists. I hope that many of you can look beyond
the humans to join me on this trek as well. All I want to do is entertain
and nothing fills me with more joy that knowing people enjoy my art, and now
my storytelling.
Needless to say, my website will be home to more information as it becomes
available.
I am saddened by the decision to leave but at the same time, I am filled
with hope. Creatively, I am beginning to blossom - a feeling I have not
experienced for many years. Things are changing for the better, although
some things unfortunately will never change no matter how much I wish it. As
the saying goes, "that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger."
And please, despite the attempts of a certain individual to speak for me,
reading what they will into why I have decided to leave the fandom, he has
never contacted me about this. I don't understand why he spent so much
effort trying to "interpret" my decision as opposed to just out and out
*asking* me. I am not difficult to get in contact with and am more than
willing to answer questions privately. In hopes of nipping rumors in the
bud - if it didn't come from me, or someone who said they already spoke to
me, it's most likely not true or embellished to serve an agenda.
My intention is not to turn my back the fandom, and I apologize to those who
feel that is what I am doing. Trust me, I have made many friends in furry
and I did not come to this decision lightly. I just think it's better for
all of us, my stepping away. I have left furry fandom, but I have not
abandoned my love for funny-animal or as you would call it, furry
characters. I no longer contribute to fanzines, take commissions,
nor will I be a part of furry conventions as they especially are too painful
for me to continue with. I know I should never say never, but for now, that
is how it will be.
I am following my heart and this is what it demands of me. I will not betray
it again.
I hope this gives some comfort, or at least some understanding.
Thank you all.
--Daphne Lage
***************************************
THE EGOWORKS
Fantasy Art, Comic Book Illustration & Graphic Design
http://www.egoworks.com/
***************************************
The only thing you can change is yourself,
but sometimes that changes everything.
***************************************
Charles Melville
Sorry to hear about all this. I'm also sorry to hear you won't be actively
participating in the fandom anymore, but I sincerely hope your new directions
are successful for you. Best of wishes, and good luck.
--
-Chuck Melville-
http://www.zipcon.net/~cpam/index.htm
Akal Ashata Alis
Rather then disuade, or even start to explain, or any other such, allow
me to do only this:
I wish you good journey in your travels, well profit in your
ventures, and may
you have many pleasent years ahead. You will be missed, but all have paths
that must be
taken.
Akal Ashata Alis
Stefan Ardinger
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn
<egor...@egoworks.com> wrote:
> Yes, I have left furry fandom.
Bye Daphne. I've always had admiration for you and you've always been a
lady!
I am not sorry to see you do what you feel is right, as you're not ceasing
your artwork or future artwork projects. You're just moving on.
God bless and take care.
-Skorzy
--
J. Scott Rogers ** sko...@mindspring.com **
UMASS Medical Center ** jeff....@umassmed.edu**
Program in Molecular Medicine Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn
Worcester, Massachusetts Anthrocon Artshow Asst.Directorat
--
"The Biorg Universe" Anthropomorphic Fiction
http://skorzy.home.mindspring.com
Allen Kitchen
It saddens me to hear of your leaving. The artwork I purchased from you
at the last AC adds a splash of color and life to an otherwise lifeless
and drab wall. You ask anyone; I don't shell out green stuff easily, but
your non-eros work was clearly worth the couple of peanut butter sandwiches
consumed in order to afford it.
I'm sorry to see you go. You struck me as a fun-loving individual when I
met you briefly. I pray that after a suitable haitus you consider coming
back just to have fun. There can be much joy and merriment in the genre,
but it requires light hearts to create and share it.
May your heart become light and filled with joy for all of your days. I hope
that we may yet meet again someday...
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
artist
"Daphne Lage" <egor...@egoworks.com> wrote in message
news:957kf4$ggo$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
> It has come to my attention that some clarification is in order due to
my
> "disappearance" from furry fandom, especially since Mailbox Books have
been
> given notice to discontinue my prints. Not surprising, this has caused
some
> rumors to be started that I feel should be squelched before they get
totally
> out of hand. Rumors being rumors though, I don't expect that. As a
result, I
> have decided to post what will be my only public say in the matter.
>
> Yes, I have left furry fandom.
Bye.
ilr
Daphne Lage <egor...@egoworks.com> wrote in message news:957kf4$ggo$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
You remember 2 years ago(well, probably not, but here goes anyway)
Nate Patrin and I both kinda came at you with some sorta Art-whore
discussion. Well, it might not even matter now, but I'm sorry about that.
If you felt trapped at all about what you were drawing, that must have
been pretty personally painful, or more insulting than either of us had
meant it to be, I'm sure :(
But either way, "casting off your shackles" as you claim you are
doing will still only accomplish one thing outside of your own life, and
that's giving Ammunition to the furry pariahs who don't make any
distinction between 2 different artistic motivations. Some of us LIKE
drawing that kinda stuff, and I, other artists as well, take offense to
being so easily labeled as the L.C.D. The same rules apply, we would
be betraying our hearts too if we drew what "they" wanted us to draw.
I know your intentions are good, but I will be marking today as a
lost battle for our freedom of expression and freedom of thought in
this fandom.
-Ilr, who is in need of inspiration, but all these damn artists quitting
is making that a bit difficult.
Rainshadow
"Daphne Lage" <egor...@egoworks.com> writes:
|> My relationships in the fandom did not fare any better. Instead of looking
|> for the positive lights that would help raise my talents, I hooked up with
|> the gutter feeders
it's a shame that there's such a dearth of interesting, well-adjusted people in
fandom with whom to build relationships. as a fan, I've seen a lot of the same
thing, 'cept on a different level, obviously. In the interest of self-preservation,
I have also "pulled away" and looked elsewhere for meaningful social
interactions. It bums me out that this thing, this idea that I care so much about
provides so little opportunity for meaningful social interaction and
fulfillment... to the point that it makes me question whether or not my
interest is indicative of a more general defect in my own persona...
-psych-by-numbers!
--
work like a dog, drink like a fish, ride like the wind...
n o a .
a s d w y h o c m
r h @ o o
Cerulean
>it's a shame that there's such a dearth of interesting, well-adjusted people in
>fandom with whom to build relationships. as a fan, I've seen a lot of the same
>thing, 'cept on a different level, obviously. In the interest of self-preservation,
>I have also "pulled away" and looked elsewhere for meaningful social
>interactions. It bums me out that this thing, this idea that I care so much about
>provides so little opportunity for meaningful social interaction and
>fulfillment... to the point that it makes me question whether or not my
I'll get incinerated for this, but most of the meaningful social
interaction going on in furry fandom is taking place among people who
are being blamed for all the problems and told to get out.
--
___vvz /( Cerulean = Kevin Pease http://cerulean.st/
<__,` Z / ( DC2.~D GmAL~W-R+++Ac~J+S+Fr++IH$M-V+++Cbl,spu
`~~~) )Z) ( FDDmp4adwsA+++$C+D+HM+P-RT+++WZSm#
/ (7 ( ppnW 'W - ,,'h+a!)os aJn)asu! p!dn+S,,
Alan Kennedy
though, to each their own and all that.
You are sorta like me right now. I don't want to be associated in the
spotlight with 'furry' as it were, as no matter what I say, do, or try go
get a message across it never seems to change the attitude of peopel in it.
I'll just sit back idly and do something occasionally to let people know I
still exist, thats about it. I will never turn my back on furry, but I'd
rather not associat with the 'mainstream' of furry, as its more and more
akin to a muddy river.
I don't honestly think its the total 'image' of furry, as much as the morons
who try to give furry an 'image' today. I've not been around but only a
scant 5 years, but its long enough to notice things.
All and all, either furry will survive, or fizzle out much like the 8-Track
did.
Regardless there will always be fans of it, thats one way to look at it. :)
--
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** Alan Kennedy, TriGem Olandarinse
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** ICQ: 8781052
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** YAHOO: goldanthrowolf
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** YAHOO: trigem_olandarinse
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** MSN Messenger : tri...@hotmail.com
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** WWW: http://www.furnation.com/trigem
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** E-MAIL: trigem (at) hotmail.com - text
Charles Groark
> Yes, I have left furry fandom.
Fare well in all your future endeavors, Daphne. You will be missed.
Charlie
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> Yes, I have left furry fandom.
Okay, can you now tell us what the whole "anti-zoo" masqarade
thing over on the Burned Fur Message Base was about? Why didn't
you just sign the posts as yourself?
StukaFox
Michael Pena
Good luck on your future endeavors. I am sure that they bring you
nothing but happiness.
I am sad to hear that you have had such a bad experience lately. When
I met you at ConFurence I found you to be a nice person to talk to.
Your artistic talent, is in my eyes, without question.
Most of all, enjoy life :)
Sincerely,
Michael Angel Peña(AKA Sparrow...A Rabbit)
Artist-Laughing Rabbit Graphics
http://lonestar.texas.net/~sparrow/sparrow.htm
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
>it's a shame that there's such a dearth of interesting, well-adjusted
>people in fandom with whom to build relationships.
There is?
I've met plenty of fine people through the fandom over the years... like my
boyfriend.
I must be lucky or something. -:)
--
_________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
Flamewars: The only winning move is not to play.
http://www.xydexx.com/anthrofurry
Hangdog
public, it's nobody's loss and everybody's gain. Good luck! :o)
--Hangdog, Burned Fur
regal
good place to be.
If it has any meaning, I think you are a talented artist and I have
enjoyed your artwork.
--
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."
regal at negia dot net
M Panthera Uncia
MP
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
writes:
> I'll get incinerated for this, but most of the meaningful
> social interaction going on in furry fandom is taking place among
> people who are being blamed for all the problems and told to get out.
If you consider getting together to fuck people you hardly know "meaningful
social interaction".
Getting to know someone on a Muck isn't really getting to know them at all,
considering all of the people who have been horribly duped by those they
considered "lovers" online.
--
"if Marylin Manson has more of an influence on a kid than the kid's parents
do, then maybe the parents need to look at how they're raising their kids."
-- Charlie Clouser, Keyboardist, Nine Inch Nails.
Spammer Warning: Washington State Law now provides civil penalties for UCE.
ilr
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC <xyd...@BEsmartDONTSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:Xns903AD9D34x...@209.125.35.22...
From what I've heard from both genders, it really is a great
place to meet one's Boyfriend. Just not a place to meet one's
girlfriend from what I understand. I really wouldn't call this
honky tonk a man's-man's bar, if ya'know what I mean.
-Ilr
Dark Ren
mau...@kendra.com (Richard Chandler - WA Resident) wrote:
> In article <3a77daf1...@news.fysh.org>,
ma...@cerulean.st (Cerulean)
> writes:
> > I'll get incinerated for this, but most of the meaningful
> > social interaction going on in furry fandom is taking place
among
> > people who are being blamed for all the problems and told to
get out.
>
> If you consider getting together to fuck people you hardly know
"meaningful
> social interaction".
>
> Getting to know someone on a Muck isn't really getting to know
them at all,
> considering all of the people who have been horribly duped by
those they
> considered "lovers" online.
In 95% of the cases, I would tend to agree with you. But there are
exceptions to the rule. I've met some individuals I intend to meet
eventually, but not for anything intimate. Because I've come to like
them from talking to them on an entirely OOC basis. There are
always exceptions to the rule.
--
I see the ghosts of navigators but they are lost
As they sail into the setting sun they'll count the cost
As their skeletons accusing emerge from the sea
The sirens of the rocks they beckon me
Ghost of the Navigator : Iron Maiden
Under Construction - Sins of the Past MUX
http://riftsmux.dhs.org/~sins/
Dark Ren -
http://www.deja.com/my/pb.xp?member_name=darkren
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Alan Kennedy
> If you consider getting together to fuck people you hardly know
"meaningful
> social interaction".
>
> Getting to know someone on a Muck isn't really getting to know them at
all,
> considering all of the people who have been horribly duped by those they
> considered "lovers" online.
And people wonder why I laugh my ass off when they say they have a new mate
online, or met someone online. Hehe.
I've watched friends go down that route, lost myself to the mucks and online
and got burned once, and that was enough for this wolf to realize his errors
and not be duped. :) heh.
There is NO substitue for the cozy aquaintance of meeting someone in a bar
or coffee shop, VR will never replace that.
--
--
Alan Kennedy [TriGem Olandarinse]
EMAIL : tri...@REMOVEGIBBERISH.hotmail.com
YAHOO : goldanthrowolf & trigem_olandarinse
WWW : http://www.furnation.com/trigem
ICQ : 8781052
Alan Kennedy
> There is?
Yah, amazingly enough :)
> I've met plenty of fine people through the fandom over the years... like
my
> boyfriend.
>
> I must be lucky or something. -:)
Same thing here. My BF is a great guy, so much that we called it off
because of it being a long distance relationship and not seeing each other
hardly at all. HOwever we decided to try it again :) heeh.
Alan Kennedy
> From what I've heard from both genders, it really is a great
> place to meet one's Boyfriend. Just not a place to meet one's
> girlfriend from what I understand. I really wouldn't call this
> honky tonk a man's-man's bar, if ya'know what I mean.
> -Ilr
I think hetro/bi-single-female furries are like a myth or something. Hehe.
I don't think that I've ever met one in 5 years of furryness.
Jamie and Bridget Wilde
Alan Kennedy wrote:
>
> Richard Chandler - WA Resident <mau...@kendra.com> wrote in message
>
> > If you consider getting together to fuck people you hardly know
> "meaningful
> > social interaction".
> >
> > Getting to know someone on a Muck isn't really getting to know them at
> all,
> > considering all of the people who have been horribly duped by those they
> > considered "lovers" online.
>
> And people wonder why I laugh my ass off when they say they have a new mate
> online, or met someone online. Hehe.
>
> I've watched friends go down that route, lost myself to the mucks and online
> and got burned once, and that was enough for this wolf to realize his errors
> and not be duped. :) heh.
>
> There is NO substitue for the cozy aquaintance of meeting someone in a bar
> or coffee shop, VR will never replace that.
I'd have to say, it depends. I met my husband online, and we've been
married for some years now. Of course, we met on a mailing list for
writers rather than on a MU** or in a chatroom...
And I have to admit, I like him better in RL! :)
Bridget
--
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Come and visit the fanfics and food of Bridget and Jamie Wilde! *
* http://www.gci-net.com/users/w/wildeman/ *
* =^_^= Want Catgirls? =^_^= *
* http://www.bewildered-art.com/catgirls/index.html *
* Bewildered Furries - Anthropomorphic Artwork by B. Wilde *
* http://www.FurNation.com/Bewildered/index.html *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Cerulean
>In article <3a77daf1...@news.fysh.org>, ma...@cerulean.st (Cerulean)
>writes:
>> I'll get incinerated for this, but most of the meaningful
>> social interaction going on in furry fandom is taking place among
>> people who are being blamed for all the problems and told to get out.
>
>If you consider getting together to fuck people you hardly know "meaningful
>social interaction".
As expected, you have no idea what I am talking about.
Dark Ren
ma...@cerulean.st (Cerulean) wrote:
> As expected, you have no idea what I am talking about.
Rather than stopping there, elaborate.
gbres...@my-deja.com
"Alan Kennedy" <tri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I think hetro/bi-single-female furries are like a myth or something.
> Hehe.
> I don't think that I've ever met one in 5 years of furryness.
It's that single part that's the only sticking point in most of my
counter-examples. My best friend (and mother of my godson) being the
one I usually start off with when the "no straight women in furry"
thing usually comes up.
But as I go through the list, most of them are married. Oh, well. :)
--
--Gene
"Everybody wants to be a cat, 'cause a cat's the only cat who knows
where it's at."
--O'Malley the alley cat, The Aristocats.
gbres...@my-deja.com
> it's a shame that there's such a dearth of interesting, well-adjusted
> people in
> fandom with whom to build relationships.
Um, that's simply not true.
I've met a large number of interesting, well-adjusted, self-supporting,
have-a-real-life-too people in fandom. I have to admit, we tend to
gravitate towards each other. I can list off a group of such who I've
remained friends with for over a decade, with our involvment in fandom
varying from person to person over time.
Cerulean
>In article <3a798ad4...@news.fysh.org>,
> ma...@cerulean.st (Cerulean) wrote:
>
>> As expected, you have no idea what I am talking about.
>
>Rather than stopping there, elaborate.
I don't a have a free century in which to explain the concept of
friendship to Rich Chandler. (Sorry folks, I try not to sink this low,
but damn if it isn't true.)
Two or more people who identify strongly with animals, symbolically or
otherwise, will find they have something to talk about, and since the
topic is very personal, they will learn a lot about each other and
social bonds will be created. Unfortunately, people who are in "furry"
purely or mostly for social reasons (of whatever kind) are demonized
as leeches; the argument is that they aren't producing or consuming
anything (even though most of them actually are).
ilr
<fer...@enteract.com> wrote in message news:95bt40$aei$2...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> I did. I ended up marrying her. ;-) I know of a few others, but I don't
> think I'll post their names as I rather value their friendship and my own
> hide.
>
And then there's that, you'll never see 'em advertise.
Though the few who aren't married might not even be
looking anyway just for likelihood of finding something under
200 pounds, straight, and single too. Heh. Oh well, I didn't
exactly come here for the wild single scene anyway, unless
you count the foxy fems in the illustrated scenery <G>
-Ilr
Jim Doolittle
rans...@tejiba.hiding.in-a-wash.haha (Rainshadow) wrote:
> it's a shame that there's such a dearth of interesting, well-adjusted
> people in
> fandom with whom to build relationships. as a fan, I've seen a lot of the
> same
I'll have to disagree with that. The number of well-adjusted,
interesting people in fandom that I have met over the last few years is
what keeps me here. As a group, the well-adjusted people tend to be
quieter than the small number of freaks who inhabit the fandom, which is
why you don't hear much from us (with a few exceptions).
-Jim
--
Jim Doolittle CornWuff Press
dool...@speakeasy.org http://www.cornwuff.com
Art Show Director, Midwest FurFest
http://www.furfest.org
Jim Doolittle
It's difficult--single women being rather rare in fandom--but possible...
-Jim, speaking from recent experience.
Jim Doolittle
> : There is NO substitue for the cozy aquaintance of meeting someone in a
> : or coffee shop, VR will never replace that.
>
>
> I
> absolutely will go enjoy RL social interaction with real people in
> preference to spending time with them online when the choice is there to
> be made.
Heck, yes. Even so, there are one or two people I've known for a few yea
Kyle L. Webb
Richard Chandler - WA Resident wrote:
>
> If you consider getting together to fuck people you hardly know "meaningful
> social interaction".
So that's what you figure Cerulean means?
<sarcasm>
Yep, all those late night lifestyler forums opposite the dances at cons
must be dens of illicit sex. (Darn. Wish I would have known. I would
have made a point to attend more often.)
</sarcasm>
Richard, he's talking about the fairly large number of ongoing face to
face get togethers and real world friendships that have come out of
those. Some of the best non-con furry events and get-togethers I've been
to had their start at them (and no, they weren't sex fests either).
He's being a bit too preemptively defensive though, IMHO. I still
maintain that both the good and bad of the fandom is fairly evenly
distributed across the "recognized" groups.
Kyle L. Webb
Hartree Fox on yiffnet
Alan Kennedy
> I did. I ended up marrying her. ;-) I know of a few others, but I don't
> think I'll post their names as I rather value their friendship and my own
> hide.
Heh., damn you! Know I know where one went ;) hehe.
Atara
<95bpgc$tlv$1...@raccoon.fur.com>:
>I think hetro/bi-single-female furries are like a myth or something.
>Hehe. I don't think that I've ever met one in 5 years of furryness.
Oh, bull. You met me at AC99.
--
Atara
"I've got a pantheon of animals
in a pagan soul..." -Rush
http://www.FurNation.com/Atara/
Allen Kitchen
Atara wrote:
>
> tri...@hotmail.com (Alan Kennedy) wrote in
> <95bpgc$tlv$1...@raccoon.fur.com>:
>
> >I think hetro/bi-single-female furries are like a myth or something.
> >Hehe. I don't think that I've ever met one in 5 years of furryness.
>
> Oh, bull. You met me at AC99.
And you aren't available, are you milady? :)
Allen Kitchen (shockwave, snickering)
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
Allen Kitchen
"Dr. Skorzy" wrote:
>
> In article <95bpgc$tlv$1...@raccoon.fur.com>, "Alan Kennedy"
> <tri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think hetro/bi-single-female furries are like a myth or something. Hehe.
> > I don't think that I've ever met one in 5 years of furryness.
>
> They're out there. I'm steady with one. :)
>
> -Skorzy
Damn! All these lucky furs finding furry mates...
Is it too late to trade up? She doesn't have to be a newer model;
just a bit more responsive and adaptable. Who do I talk to? Hello? :)
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
>From what I've heard from both genders, it really is a great
>place to meet one's Boyfriend. Just not a place to meet one's
>girlfriend from what I understand. I really wouldn't call this
>honky tonk a man's-man's bar, if ya'know what I mean.
Eh, bars never really appealed to me as great places to meet people, what with
the noise and smoking and drinking and all. I met my boyfriend at a furry
party in Albany over seven years ago.
We've been living together since 1996 and are very happy. Folks have said
we're a well-established couple.
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
> As expected, you have no idea what I am talking about.
Then obviously you failed to communicate it. And by this statement,
deliberately.
I think first you need to make clear who you were referring to as the "people
who are being blamed for all the problems and being told to get out", and then
you need to make the case that they are, in fact, the source of "most of the
meaningful social interaction", and while you're at it, you need to make the
case that this interaction (which you should properly define) is MORE
meaningful that everything else going on in the fandom.
I think that's a pretty tall order though, so I don't blame you if you demur.
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
>Same thing here. My BF is a great guy, so much that we called it off
>because of it being a long distance relationship and not seeing each other
>hardly at all. HOwever we decided to try it again :) heeh.
FoxLord, right? He joined us for dinner at FC. I was asking about ya. -:)
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
>As a group, the well-adjusted people tend to be quieter
>than the small number of freaks who inhabit the fandom, which
>is why you don't hear much from us (with a few exceptions).
Psst... freaks can be quiet and well-adjusted, too.[1]
-:)
--
__________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
I may be a freak, but at least I'm a happy freak:
http://www.xydexx.com/anthrofurry
[1] I've found that being a quiet and well-adjusted
freak tends to annoy some people more than being
the noisy and maladjusted kind, though...
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
writes:
> I don't a have a free century in which to explain the concept
> of friendship to Rich Chandler. (Sorry folks, I try not to sink this
> low, but damn if it isn't true.)
My goodness! My secret is out! I have NO FRIENDS! I have never, in 35 years
of life, ever, erver had a friend, and I have NO CONCEPT fo what friendship
means! Oh dear, oh dear, whatever shall I do? Oh, that's right, I don't
know what I'm missing. :-P
Yes, you've sunk low, but low in terms of sheer idiocy, not immorality.
What you're implying is that people who "identify strongly with animals,
symbolically or otherwise" and make friends with each other are the ones who
are having most of the meaningful social interaction in the fandom? That's
stupid. Hmmm, I guess the non-lifestyler folks in the fandom will have to
realize that their friendships are meaningless when compared to folks whose
"inner foxes" want to touch noses.
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
><sarcasm>
>Yep, all those late night lifestyler forums opposite the dances at cons
>must be dens of illicit sex. (Darn. Wish I would have known. I would
>have made a point to attend more often.)
></sarcasm>
Actually, they're secret meetings for global domination by monopolization of
the world's Nutella supply[1], but you didn't hear that from me. -:)
--
_________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
Flamewars: The only winning move is not to play.
http://www.xydexx.com/anthrofurry
[1] "An eeeeeevil Nutella factory?"
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
>Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC wrote:
>> Actually, they're secret meetings for global domination by
>> monopolization of the world's Nutella supply[1], but you didn't hear
>> that from me. -:)
>
Yes, but TDSFA. -:)
ilr
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC <xyd...@BEsmartDONTSPAM.net> wrote in message
> ilr wrote:
> >From what I've heard from both genders, it really is a great
> >place to meet one's Boyfriend. Just not a place to meet one's
> >girlfriend from what I understand. I really wouldn't call this
> >honky tonk a man's-man's bar, if ya'know what I mean.
>
> Eh, bars never really appealed to me as great places to meet people, what with
I wonder how well people in most bars understand Hyperbole?
-Ilr
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
>I wonder how well people in most bars understand Hyperbole?
I suppose that would depend how much someone has had to drink.
Cerulean
>In article <3a79b0cb...@news.fysh.org>, ma...@cerulean.st (Cerulean)
>writes:
>> I don't a have a free century in which to explain the concept
>> of friendship to Rich Chandler. (Sorry folks, I try not to sink this
>> low, but damn if it isn't true.)
>
>My goodness! My secret is out! I have NO FRIENDS!
I was driving more at the fact that upon encountering the phrase
"meaningful social interaction," the only think you can think of is
sex, and that the mating isn't meaningful enough if you meet online.
It was a ridiculous thing to bring up given the context.
>Hmmm, I guess the non-lifestyler folks in the fandom will have to
>realize that their friendships are meaningless when compared to folks whose
>"inner foxes" want to touch noses.
I didn't say it was more meaningful, only that there was more of it
going on. When it's the primary reason for being there in the first
place, that will happen. In between all her other concerns, I doubt
Daphne Lage ever had the time to sit down and really get to know the
people she now regrets hanging around. My own feeble attempts at
artistic recognition in the fandom have hindered me from getting to
know as many people as I'd like as well as I'd like; it's just a time
issue. But don't let me stop you from creating the "we think we're
better than you" straw man for the hundredth time.
I doubt you have meaningful friendships, Rich, but I'm not talking
about any generalized group, I'm talking about _you,_ because I really
can't imagine you being genuinely nice to anyone.
Anyway, I'm done. I really ought to stop violating my no-response
list.
Atara
<3D178788D1CF19F3.863ED373...@lp.airnews.net>:
>And you aren't available, are you milady? :)
I was then. Well, sorta. Ok, no. Never mind. =)
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
writes:
> I doubt you have meaningful friendships, Rich, but I'm not talking
> about any generalized group, I'm talking about _you,_ because I
> really can't imagine you being genuinely nice to anyone.
I thought you would have realized long ago that the way people act online is
often vastly different from the way people act in person. I mean, I'm sure
you'd think that after all the arguments we've had online, upon meeting Xydexx
in person I'd be trying to beat him over the head with a chair, but I can
assure you no such thing has happened. Nor will it. (On the other hand, it
highly unlikely you'd find us hugging either.)
As far as friendships go, I'm the sort of person who has few, but
exceptionally strong friendships. They go way back too. People like Mitch
Marmel, or Pete Migala (Whom you wouldn't know, he's a private detective in
Northern Virginia). My closest friends are the kind of friends you can turn
to when the shit really hits the fan, and you can depend on them. Not mere
casual acquaintences. They're people I've helped and encouraged when it came
to improving their lives. (Pete was working the parts counter at a Subaru
Dealership when I met him. Mitch stocked vending machines).
And I try to be that kind of friend as well. A young woman (Well,
transsexual) friend of mine called me late at night when someone was stalking
around her apartment and trying the door. I spent the night on her couch with
a shotgun.
No Kevin, you don't know shit about me, and you have no right, given your
extremely limited knowledge of me, based entirely on my posts on a.f.f and not
on any kind of serious conversation with me, to make any sort of judgement
about whether I have, or am capable of having any friends.
(Oh, and as for where I got the idea of what kind of "meaningful social
interaction" you were talking about, I was basing it on your comment about it
being from the sort of people folks want to leave the fandom. And those who
only come to cons to "get yiffy" and otherwise have no interest in the fandom
certainly fall into that category.)
Rainshadow
gbres...@my-deja.com writes:
|>
|> > it's a shame that there's such a dearth of interesting, well-adjusted
|> > people in
|> > fandom with whom to build relationships.
|>
|> Um, that's simply not true.
|>
|> I've met a large number of interesting, well-adjusted, self-supporting,
|> have-a-real-life-too people in fandom. I have to admit, we tend to
|> gravitate towards each other. I can list off a group of such who I've
|> remained friends with for over a decade, with our involvment in fandom
|> varying from person to person over time.
all that says is that you, like some of the others that have posted in this
thread, are a typical fan, insofar as your interests, personality, &c are
such that you are likely to find people socially compatible to you in a place
like furry fandom.
I have not. I am /not/ largely compatible w/ the people I have run into in furry
fandom. I have /not/ made any friendships that I would consider more than
transient and superficial. I have been trying since 1993, so it's not as if I've
been approaching this half-assed. I have made more meaningful friendships quicker
doing things such as rockclimbing and mountain biking than I ever have in furry
and for the life of me all I can conclude from this is that I am not a typical
fan. Hell, maybe there's some complex self-defeating psycobullshit element in
there somewhere, but the fact remains that furry fans, in general, fail to
impress me as people. And man that sucks because I care way too facking much
about this stupid metagenre to have to enjoy it alone.
-thinking outside the box
--
work like a dog, drink like a fish, ride like the wind...
n o a .
a s d w y h o c m
r h @ o o
Rainshadow
Jim Doolittle <dool...@speakeasy.org> writes:
|> I'll have to disagree with that. The number of well-adjusted,
|> interesting people in fandom that I have met over the last few years is
|> what keeps me here. As a group, the well-adjusted people tend to be
|> quieter than the small number of freaks who inhabit the fandom, which is
|> why you don't hear much from us (with a few exceptions).
Well great Jim, sounds like you won the furry lottery. 'S funny, 'cause a few
years ago I had you pegged as being one of the next to leave(1), by the very
virtues to which I refer- your perceived normalcy, well-adjustedness, whateva'.
yes, I have met some people that I considered to have potential, but most of them
were artists or hangers-on &/or were /so/ caught up with their place in things
furry and my relative perceived status in same that it was doomed from the
get-go. the fact that it was doomed at all for such a stupid, artificial
bullshit distinction says to me at as much about the environment that fostered
as it does about the people involved. fackit, I rode 16 fast miles tonight, it's
late, & i'm tired.
For the record, I have not met Jim. nor have I met Chandler, or Xydexx, or
Cerulean, or Mr. Kitchen, or many of the rest of you. take it for what it's
worth...
...and what my experiences are worth, I haven't a clue.
-g'night!
(1) yes, a perception based solely on what he has said here, yes, we all know
what a distorted representation of a person one's online presence is, yada yada..
Cerulean
you more frequently treated online communication as if you were
yourself talking to other real people, instead of a facade through
which you can facelessly judge hundreds based on slightly less
information than with which I judged you, you would find that people
form more realistic perceptions of you. What do you think of that?
Hayley Wesson
Hash: SHA1
Richard Chandler - WA Resident wrote:
<snipity chop chop>
While I have to admire a few things you have done for the fandom, you
have to be one of the sheer _stubbornest_ people in keeping a one
track mind I've ever run across.
Hayley
- --
Email blah'ed to death
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 7.0.1
iQA/AwUBOnp7PfeA5/A6kHPHEQJ3egCfWQsMuDapfLoFRcHdFjdLIlEtN0sAoP0m
ErXcOBhed2X/Prg2pw1qJbps
=Lkix
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Martin Skunk
Daphne Lage wrote:
> Yes, I have left furry fandom.
What I don't understand is the LARGE thread this announce has
generated. It's only an "official" announcement by Daphne, and now furs,
based on that, are questioning yiffiness and some other characteristics
of furry fandom.
Such a way to say farewell. :b
--- Martin Skunk
Brian O'connell
bail the moment they start using the internet... This fandom is such that
you cannot hold a view or opinion on *anything* without someone taking it as
an excuse to piss in your cornflakes... Artists are, by nature, often
opinionated on *something*, and often recieve more vocal scorn for their
work and/or personality than anyone else...
Someone could be humping a plushie, or worst, a live animal, but the
artist who chooses to live via their art by satisfying a specific market,
and more often they recieve more criticism than the aforementioned
plushie/doggyhumpers... Many of those detractors speak softly and carry a
megaphone for the cheap seats, but rarely if ever provide a viable
alternative... How many of the folks out there say "Draw some clean art for
us, and we'll pay you for it!"? Only one that I know of that's still in
distribution, and that's Radio Comix... How many out there financially
support artists in alternative ventures? Very few...
So when you have condemnation on one end, and little support for the
alternatives, that paints the artist into a corner... With no real options
in drawing funny animal materials, they burn out... I know this from
personal experience, and I'm sure plenty of other artists have had similar
experiences...
I, personally, wish Daphne the best, it's a pity that a fandom that
dwells so much in self loathing can do little more than extend that self
loathing to it's artists, driving them away as a result... Hopefully one of
these days, they'll grow up a notch and realize that it isn't the subject
matter that makes art, it's the artist...
And perhaps some will even figure out that the personal opinions of an
opinionated few, who hate the very concept of anyone embracing and relishing
the ability to create, do far FAR more to cheapen the art and craft, than
ANY artwork produced to pander to any given group...
"Martin Skunk" <marti...@notcoldmail.com> wrote in message
news:3A7AFA13...@notcoldmail.com...
shockw...@my-deja.com
rans...@tejiba.hiding.in-a-wash.haha (Rainshadow) wrote:
> For the record, I have not met Jim. nor have I met Chandler, or
Xydexx, or
> Cerulean, or Mr. Kitchen, or many of the rest of you. take it for what
it's
> worth...
Call me Allen, please. I'm usually pretty laid back. :)
If you want to meet some people, might I suggest you volunteer
at the next con you go to? Perhaps help to put the art show
together? It's fun, work, and comradrie all in one, and such
efforts are how cons can exist in the first place. I don't
think I'll ever forget AC00, talking with Jbadger while we wove
through Pa. in the dead of night, having no idea in the world
where I was but so engrossed in the conversation that I didn't
care.
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Dark Ren
Martin Skunk <marti...@notcoldmail.com> wrote:
>
> Daphne Lage wrote:
>
> > Yes, I have left furry fandom.
>
> What I don't understand is the LARGE thread this announce has
> generated. It's only an "official" announcement by Daphne, and now
furs,
> based on that, are questioning yiffiness and some other
characteristics
> of furry fandom.
Such is the nature of USENET and any other open forum. Topics flow and
weave as they will.
--
I see the ghosts of navigators but they are lost
As they sail into the setting sun they'll count the cost
As their skeletons accusing emerge from the sea
The sirens of the rocks they beckon me
Ghost of the Navigator : Iron Maiden
Under Construction - Sins of the Past MUX
http://riftsmux.dhs.org/~sins/
Dark Ren - http://www.deja.com/my/pb.xp?member_name=darkren
Dark Ren
"Brian O'connell" <furball1_(furball-one)_hates_s...@uswest.net>
wrote:
> Actually, it's an excellent demonstration of why so many furry
artists
> bail the moment they start using the internet... This fandom is such
that
> you cannot hold a view or opinion on *anything* without someone
taking it as
> an excuse to piss in your cornflakes... Artists are, by nature, often
> opinionated on *something*, and often recieve more vocal scorn for
their
> work and/or personality than anyone else...
Bri, take a chill pill will ya? It was an idle musing, not a pissing in
anyone’s breakfast cereal. Jeeze..
> Someone could be humping a plushie, or worst, a live animal, but
the
> artist who chooses to live via their art by satisfying a specific
market,
> and more often they recieve more criticism than the aforementioned
> plushie/doggyhumpers... Many of those detractors speak softly and
carry a
> megaphone for the cheap seats, but rarely if ever provide a viable
> alternative... How many of the folks out there say "Draw some clean
art for
> us, and we'll pay you for it!"? Only one that I know of that's still
in
> distribution, and that's Radio Comix... How many out there financially
> support artists in alternative ventures? Very few...
Such is the nature of the beast that is creative expression. It's never
been that secure a means of making a living. Every occupation has it's
quirks and cons as well as pros. So suck it up.
> So when you have condemnation on one end, and little support for
the
> alternatives, that paints the artist into a corner... With no real
options
> in drawing funny animal materials, they burn out... I know this from
> personal experience, and I'm sure plenty of other artists have had
similar
> experiences...
Then don't do what burns you out. Art is meant to be fulfilling. Not
drudgery. If you find it more like the latter it might be time for you
to reevaluate just what went wrong and look into fixing it.
> I, personally, wish Daphne the best, it's a pity that a fandom
that
> dwells so much in self loathing can do little more than extend that
self
> loathing to it's artists, driving them away as a result... Hopefully
one of
> these days, they'll grow up a notch and realize that it isn't the
subject
> matter that makes art, it's the artist...
I won't claim to know precisely what broke the camels back for Daphne.
From her post, it looks like she fell into the trap of pimping her
talent out and is finally getting herself back on track after that. A
good thing. And I hope she continues to do what she wants in whatever
she decides is best for her now. If any of the above is wrong, do
correct me.
Personally, I don't buy into blaming the lack of an artist doing the
art they want based on this fandom. Perhaps my views are narrow on
this, but its a matter of my own prospective I suppose. I see two sides
of the coin for artists who are 'burning out'. Either you draw what you
like and occasionally make sales or you fall to the dark lure of art
pimping. Rarely do the two sides meet, save when someone likes to draw
what the audience in general wants. It's all about choices and
decisions.
Harsh, but that's life.
> And perhaps some will even figure out that the personal opinions
of an
> opinionated few, who hate the very concept of anyone embracing and
relishing
> the ability to create, do far FAR more to cheapen the art and craft,
than
> ANY artwork produced to pander to any given group...
That's a rather odd statement. But personally I encourage creativity.
The whining of others is no reason for anyone to pander to them.
M. Mitchell Marmel
> As far as friendships go, I'm the sort of person who has few, but
> exceptionally strong friendships. They go way back too. People like Mitch
> Marmel, or Pete Migala (Whom you wouldn't know, he's a private detective in
> Northern Virginia). My closest friends are the kind of friends you can turn
> to when the shit really hits the fan, and you can depend on them. Not mere
> casual acquaintences. They're people I've helped and encouraged when it came
> to improving their lives. (Pete was working the parts counter at a Subaru
> Dealership when I met him. Mitch stocked vending machines).
Is true. Rich introduced me to an odd device known as a Macintosh
personal computer. Today, I earn a good living as a Mac jockey at
Drexel, own my house (with the bank) and have two Mercedes-Benzes...
-MMM-
gbres...@my-deja.com
> all that says is that you, like some of the others that have posted in
> this
> thread, are a typical fan, insofar as your interests, personality, &c
> are
> such that you are likely to find people socially compatible to you in
> a place
> like furry fandom.
Again, simply wrong. The people I find that I get along with aren't
typical fans. I daresay the typical fan thinks I'm a prude (I have it in
writing from one) and unfathomable because I've held down a job for over
a decade.
Trust me, I meet plenty of the weirdos and superficial people in the
fandom. Two superficial people CAN NOT FORM A 12 YEAR FRIENDSHIP the
results in a publication that has printed on time for over six years and
runs in the black.
I and a group of 11 friends have done exactly that.
> I have not. I am /not/ largely compatible w/ the people I have run
> into in furry
> fandom.
I am not largely compatible with a little over half the people I run
into in fandom. But I'm largely not compatible for close relationships
with lots of people that I meet elsewhere.
You either aren't looking hard enough or there's another problem.
--
--Gene
"Everybody wants to be a cat, 'cause a cat's the only cat who knows
where it's at."
--O'Malley the alley cat, The Aristocats.
Jim Doolittle
rans...@tejiba.hiding.in-a-wash.haha (Rainshadow) wrote:
> Well great Jim, sounds like you won the furry lottery. 'S funny, 'cause a
> few
> years ago I had you pegged as being one of the next to leave(1), by the
> very
> virtues to which I refer- your perceived normalcy, well-adjustedness,
> whateva'.
Nah, I like it here too much to be chased away by the clueless. Despite
the large number I've encountered over the past four years.
> ...and what my experiences are worth, I haven't a clue.
Everybody has different ones, that's what makes things interesting.
-Jim
--
Jim Doolittle CornWuff Press
dool...@speakeasy.org http://www.cornwuff.com
Art Show Director, Midwest FurFest
http://www.furfest.org
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
<mau...@kendra.com> wrote:
[...]
>Getting to know someone on a Muck isn't really getting to know them at all,
>considering all of the people who have been horribly duped by those they
>considered "lovers" online.
What about all thouse who have been duped IRL. Look at the devose
rate.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Free the Memes.
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
wrote:
[...]
>And people wonder why I laugh my ass off when they say they have a new mate
>online, or met someone online. Hehe.
There are however cases where it works. Two of my freands (one
married) met there mates online, a famiouse case would be Bill
Holbrook.
[...]
>There is NO substitue for the cozy aquaintance of meeting someone in a bar
>or coffee shop, VR will never replace that.
Bar cozy! You have to be kidding.
PeterCat
> If you want to meet some people, might I suggest you volunteer at the
> next con you go to? Perhaps help to put the art show together? It's
> fun, work, and comradrie all in one, and such efforts are how cons
> can exist in the first place. I don't think I'll ever forget AC00,
> talking with Jbadger while we wove through Pa. in the dead of night,
> having no idea in the world where I was but so engrossed in the
> conversation that I didn't care.
Nor will I forget, I deeply appreciate your and JBadger's help, to get
the rest of the Art Show panels. It really is folks like you who make
conventions happen.
--
PeterCat <a...@anthrocon.org> Anthrocon Art Show Director
http://www.anthrocon.org
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
writes:
> Well, suddenly you sound a little more like a real person. Maybe if
> you more frequently treated online communication as if you were
> yourself talking to other real people, instead of a facade through
> which you can facelessly judge hundreds based on slightly less
> information than with which I judged you, you would find that people
> form more realistic perceptions of you. What do you think of that?
I'm just responding in kind to the people who make snap judgements about me
and proclaim them as gospel truth after I DO give more reasoned and
impassioned reponses. I mean, how many times must one put up with having to
repeat, over and over again, that one is not a) anti porn, or b) a Burned Fur,
or c) any number of other things that I've been falsely accused of merely
because I won't support someone else's actions which are damaging to the
fandom I love?
I think the one that irritates me the most though, is being referred to as
"Just" or "Merely" a fan by those who consider themselves Lifestyers.
And you know, if people were to just STOP making these false perceptions of me
the centerpeice of their interactions with me, they just might find out what
sort of person I really am. Think about it. I had to make such a bald
proclamation about myself and my friendships in response to a false preception
of me that you made the centerpeice of your argument, when I did no such thing
to you. I attacked your argument, to be sure, but you turned around and
attacked ME personally.
Maybe you need to reconsider the pattern of your rhetoric.
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
> While I have to admire a few things you have done for the fandom, you
> have to be one of the sheer _stubbornest_ people in keeping a one
> track mind I've ever run across.
It's hard work. I'm actually very ADDish. Guess it shows how passionately I
feel for the fandom. I've seen it at its best. I know it can be even better,
and I refuse to abandon it to those who would drag it down, on BOTH sides of
the equation.
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:46:20 -0800, Richard Chandler - WA Resident
> <mau...@kendra.com> wrote:
> >Getting to know someone on a Muck isn't really getting to know them
> >at all, considering all of the people who have been horribly duped
> >by those they considered "lovers" online.
>
> What about all thouse who have been duped IRL. Look at the devose rate.
I have some theories about the divorce rate, but it's not related to being
duped, per se, but having unrealistic expectations, and a few changes to the
divorce laws that can make divorce easier, but much more expensive (And thus
profitable to Divorce attorneys). One thing is raised expectations. And this
in part is due to our highly mobile society. When your choices were limited
to the population of your small town, you made the best choice you could and
did your best to make it work, together. Now you have "access" to the entire
population, and people go looking for the "perfect" match, so that they don't
have to change themselves a single bit, and very quickly, they discover that
perfect, isn't, and they split, looking for new possibilities, rather than
changing themselves.
Rainshadow
shockw...@my-deja.com writes:
|> If you want to meet some people, might I suggest you volunteer
|> at the next con you go to? Perhaps help to put the art show
|> together?
been there, done that (confurence 9 or 10, whatever). it had it's highs and it's
lows..
-focusing on the lows..
Cerulean
> I think the one that irritates me the most though, is being referred to as
>"Just" or "Merely" a fan by those who consider themselves Lifestyers.
I guess I did say "don't let me stop you"...
>I had to make such a bald
>proclamation about myself and my friendships in response to a false preception
>of me that you made the centerpeice of your argument,
It wasn't the centerpiece of my argument, it was a completely
tangential insult. You didn't even notice my argument. Which, I
suppose, is my fault this time.
>I attacked your argument, to be sure, but you turned around and
>attacked ME personally.
Yes, I did. It was wrong. Do you realize what it takes to get me to
that point? My respect-meter doesn't dip all the way down to zero like
that on a whim. That smidgen of basic human respect never disappeared
from my admittedly low opinion of a lot of other people around here.
But you managed to do it, however briefly. Maybe, just MAYBE for once
in your life you could consider that YOU need to change how you do
things if you want people to stop seeing you as an antagonist.
I thought I made that clear in my previous post, but you were still
obsessing on your agenda. That's why I get drawn into this nonsense,
is that nothing frustrates me more than trying to communicate an idea
and having it instantly replaced by whatever is on the mind of the
person who pretends to be listening.
Darmon C. Thornton
help in motivating me to stand up for my opinions, not allowing myself to be
defined by false perceptions made by others, and to overcome my personal
struggle with codependency.
Regardless of what others may say or think of him, Rich has helped me to be
a better human being. I thank him for it with all sincerity.
--Dar Thornton
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
>I guess I did say "don't let me stop you"...
Don't worry, if he continues on long enough, he'll start saying fandom is
"just" or "merely" a goddamn hobby. That's when the real irony starts, IMHO.[1]
Just my $0.02.
--
_________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
Living Well Is The Best Revenge:
http://www.xydexx.com/anthrofurry
[1] The fact that it's been furry fans who have been
referring to themselves as "just" or "merely"
fans for years isn't that obvious, I guess.
The lifestylers weren't the ones saying FIJAGH,
last time I checked...
ilr
Cerulean <ma...@cerulean.st> wrote in message news:3a7a72ad...@news.fysh.org...
> Well, suddenly you sound a little more like a real person. Maybe if
> you more frequently treated online communication as if you were
> yourself talking to other real people, instead of a facade through
> which you can facelessly judge hundreds based on slightly less
> information than with which I judged you, you would find that people
> form more realistic perceptions of you. What do you think of that?
>
>>"(Oh, and as for where I got the idea of what kind of "meaningful social
>> interaction" you were talking about, I was basing it on your comment
>> about it being from the sort of people folks want to leave the fandom.
>> And those who only come to cons to "get yiffy" and otherwise have no
>> interest in the fandom certainly fall into that category.)"
I don't claim to know much about these... young gay men, nor do I really
care to, but thinking your interest so much more legitimate than theirs
is just pig-headed. So what if they didn't come there for art? You can't
force people to buy your publications and take everything as seriously or
realistically as you do. You don't have to accept them into your own
projects, but insulting their reasons as just-plain-wrong will never
accomplished anything positive(AKA: Anything that ISN'T pure bullshit)
-Ilr
ilr
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC <xyd...@BEsmartDONTSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:Xns903D2758Ex...@209.125.35.22...
> Cerulean wrote:
> >I guess I did say "don't let me stop you"...
>
> Don't worry, if he continues on long enough, he'll start saying fandom is
> "just" or "merely" a goddamn hobby. That's when the real irony starts, IMHO.[1]
>
> Just my $0.02.
>
time on their hands IMO. -Ilr
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
> Don't worry, if he continues on long enough, he'll start saying fandom
> is "just" or "merely" a goddamn hobby. That's when the real irony
> starts, IMHO.[1]
Oh, don't let me keep you waiting. But of couse, your understanding is
superficial. It may be a hobby to some, but that does not mean that
lifestylers are in any way SUPERIOR, which is what I am objecting to when they
used the words "Just" or "Mere" to describe fans.
I'm surprised that people who are so hypersensitive to perceived bigotry are
so incapable of seeing it when they exhibit it themselves. No, strike that,
I'm not surprised at all.
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
> Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC writes:
> > Don't worry, if he continues on long enough, he'll start saying
> > fandom is "just" or "merely" a goddamn hobby. That's when the
> > real irony starts, IMHO.
>
> is superficial. It may be a hobby to some, but that does not mean
> that lifestylers are in any way SUPERIOR, which is what I am
> objecting to when they used the words "Just" or "Mere" to describe
> fans.
In your opinion.
In reality, the myth that "lifestylers think they're superior to furry
fans" has been debunked time and again by folks like Cerulean, Allen
Kitchen, Locandez, and others on ALF. They use the word "just" the same
way they'd use the word "only".
In other words, your objections have been based solely on your
misinterpretation, and perpetuated by either
a) your desire to portray lifestylers as a Great Evil
That Threatens The Fandom, and/or
b) an unwillingness to admit when you're wrong.
I'll make it easy for you...
True:
"Just because furry fandom is a hobby to some does not mean that
lifestylers are in any way superior."
False:
"Lifestylers think they're superior because they use the words 'just' or
'mere' to describe fans."
The only one who thinks lifestylers think they're superior to furry fans
is you, Rich. Misinterpreting what they say to make it fit with your
beliefs doesn't mean they actually hold those beliefs.
If lifestylers really thought they were superior to furry fans they'd
have said so by now. It would be in the FAQ or something, y'know?
Funny thing is, there's nothing in ALF's FAQ that says "furry
lifestylers are superior to furry fans" or "nyah nyah we're better than
furry fans" or any of the perceived bigotry that you think exists.
Which brings us to...
> I'm surprised that people who are so hypersensitive to perceived
> bigotry are so incapable of seeing it when they exhibit it
> themselves. No, strike that, I'm not surprised at all.
(And then the irony gushed forth like a hydrant, and everyone lived
happily ever after. The End.)
--
_________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
Sign the petition to keep Deja's archive alive!
http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
>Anyone who considers Publishing Just-a-Hobby has too much
>time on their hands IMO. -Ilr
Heh. As a former zine publisher, I only wish I had that kinda time on my hands
these days. I keep thinking about it, but the fact is I'm working on so many
other projects right now I wouldn't have time to publish anything even if I
could decide what I wanted to publish.
--
_________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
So much time, so little to do...:
http://www.xydexx.com/anthrofurry
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
<dool...@speakeasy.org> wrote:
>I'll have to disagree with that. The number of well-adjusted,
>interesting people in fandom that I have met over the last few years is
>what keeps me here.
I allways wonder about the term "Well adjusted" it sounds strangly
omminiouse. Is there some orwellion goverment department that
secreatly adjusts people?
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
deja.com> writes:
> The only one who thinks lifestylers think they're superior to furry
> fans is you, Rich. Misinterpreting what they say to make it fit with
> your beliefs doesn't mean they actually hold those beliefs.
That is such utter bullshit and you know it Karl. I've pointed it out several
times on a.l.f when posters there used those exact terms to diminish the
stature of fans. "Furrier than thou" is SACRAMENT on a.l.f.
And resorting to the a.l.f FAQ as some kind of authority over what the posters
on a.l.f think is even MORE of a joke. They can't even agree to change it to
include the things they they DID come to a consensus on.
> In reality, the myth that "lifestylers think they're superior to
> furry fans" has been debunked time and again by folks like Cerulean,
> Allen Kitchen, Locandez, and others on ALF. They use the word "just"
> the same way they'd use the word "only".
And proven time and time again by others.
But, no debate would be complete without a reference to the dictionary. As
long as we're Speed-Flaming, let's do this now, rather than ten posts from
now.
Random House Collegiate Dictionary:
Only (adv). ... 2) No more than; merely; just.
Merely (adv) 1) Only as specified, and nothing more.
Just (adj) ... 6) Exactly or precisely. 7) by a small amount; barely. 8)
Merely.
Hayley Wesson
Hash: SHA1
Richard Chandler - WA Resident wrote:
>It's hard work. I'm actually very ADDish. Guess it shows how
>passionately I feel for the fandom. I've seen it at its best. I
>know it can be even better, and I refuse to abandon it to those who
>would drag it down, on BOTH sides of the equation.
The way I see that equation is mostly like a rather steep bell
curve.. There's the %95+ majority of us in the middle who just want
to enjoy the whole thing, while those you are talking about on both
ends are just a rather small number of people who happen to be the
loud and obnoxious ones out of the lot. Not worth more than
occasionally keeping an eye on, just mostly ignore them as they
really can't do all that much to harm the rest of us.
As for being ADDish, well, just be thankful if you don't have
short-term memory loss like I do. It's one reason that I will only
rarely be on an IRC or muck, or the like. With usenet, I can go back
and reread something from a while back if I can't remember what was
going on. On IRCs and mucks, that's not an easy option. It also
makes it fun trying to hold a conversation with people, as I
frequently catch myself wondering just what in the world we were just
talking about. Not to mention the strange looks I get for evidently
repeating myself a lot. :P
One good thing about it, is it makes my expenditures at the book
store lighter. I can read a book, and a few months later go back and
read the same book again because I usually can't remember more than a
very general idea of the plotline. In some cases the only way I know
that I _have_ read it before is because I signed and dated it when I
read it.
Hmm.. Speaking of books, I think I'm going to go finish reading the
one I'm in the middle of now(1).
- --
Hayley
unblah to email
1. The Dragonbards by Shirley Rousseau Murphy.
Semi-furry at least, as so far I've run
across some mentions of otter people in it :)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 7.0.1
iQA/AwUBOnzmDveA5/A6kHPHEQKNbACcCErBLx1W0opb2alhUdRtXIqUQIMAoK2y
PVPdJQwWU+CrjKaMk2fu9Bu0
=9+QZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
*Paragon*
--
*Paragon*, the Unidragryphoenix
Fortune go with you, wherever your journeys take you!
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
> > The only one who thinks lifestylers think they're superior to furry
> > fans is you, Rich. Misinterpreting what they say to make it fit with
> > your beliefs doesn't mean they actually hold those beliefs.
>
> That is such utter bullshit and you know it Karl.
In your opinion.
> > In reality, the myth that "lifestylers think they're superior to
> > furry fans" has been debunked time and again by folks like Cerulean,
> > Allen Kitchen, Locandez, and others on ALF. They use the word "just"
> > the same way they'd use the word "only".
>
> And proven time and time again by others.
In your opinion.
> But, no debate would be complete without a reference to the dictionary. As
> long as we're Speed-Flaming,
In your opinion.
> let's do this now, rather than ten posts from now.
>
> Random House Collegiate Dictionary:
> Only (adv). ... 2) No more than; merely; just.
>
> Merely (adv) 1) Only as specified, and nothing more.
>
> Just (adj) ... 6) Exactly or precisely. 7) by a small amount; barely. 8)
> Merely.
Yes, yes, I know... it's all about you and your little word games, isn't
it?
-:)
Y'know, it's funny... you didn't mention where "only" or "merely" or
"just" meant "superior to" or "better than".
Thank you for proving my point, Rich.
Could it be possible that your assumption that lifestylers think they're
superior to furry fans really is all just a misinterpretation on your
part?[1]
Gee.
--
_________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
Anthrofurry Infocenter:
http://www.xydexx.com/anthrofurry
[1] There was a movie called Pi a few years
back. You should rent it if you get a
chance, it's pretty good. It was about a
mathematician named Max, who was searching
for patterns in the stock market numbers
and ended up finding more than he bargained
for. At one point, Max's computer spits out
a 216-digit number before it fries itself,
and Max thinks he's found the answer to Life,
the Universe, and Everything, so he runs to
ask his old professor what the number means.
The professor tells him it's a dead end,
that once Max starts obsessing over the
number 216 he will find it everywhere, to the
point of excluding everything else. Then Max
tells the professor that's utter bullshit,
and there's a secret cabal of lifestylers who
control the world and think they're better
furry fans because they have Nutella, and
he's going to expose them all because He's
Always Right even though people point out
how stubborn he's being. Then he ends up
wasting years of his life railing against
lifestylers to show everyone how devoted he
is to the fandom and protecting it from
whatever he's deluded himself into believing
threatens it. Eventually he loses his sense
or humor completely, and crawls into Keith
the Kangaroo's pouch to hide in disgrace.
Then a weird kid comes by and staples the
pouch shut, so now Keith the Kangaroo has
to hop around with a mathematician in his
pouch for ever and ever and ever.[2]
[2] Actually, that might be on the Director's
cut. The point I'm making, Rich, is that
despite what you think about lifestylers,
they really really really aren't that bad,
and you'd probably be a lot happier in this
fandom if you just learned to get along with
them instead of always assuming they're out
to steal your Nutella or something.[3]
[3] Hey, by the way, was that you who showed up
at the Purple Nurple at FC2001 with a rose
between your teeth? It sure looked like you.
ilr
Richard Chandler - WA Resident <mau...@kendra.com> wrote in message
news:010203145...@mauser.at.kendra.com...
> In article <Xns903D2758Ex...@209.125.35.22>,
> xyd...@BEsmartDONTSPAM.net (Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC) writes:
> > Don't worry, if he continues on long enough, he'll start saying fandom
> > is "just" or "merely" a goddamn hobby. That's when the real irony
> > starts, IMHO.[1]
>
> Oh, don't let me keep you waiting. But of couse, your understanding is
> superficial. It may be a hobby to some, but that does not mean that
> lifestylers are in any way SUPERIOR, which is what I am objecting to when they
> used the words "Just" or "Mere" to describe fans.
>
> I'm surprised that people who are so hypersensitive to perceived bigotry are
> so incapable of seeing it when they exhibit it themselves. No, strike that,
> I'm not surprised at all.
>
ago, MOST people have an over-extended sense of self-worth.
Be it Freudian slip or intentional, it really doesn't amount to shit
when there's no cognitive proof in the world to hold it up. "I'm
a better fan than you :P" is so immature there's no reason to
bring it up unless you're just mud-raking for negative stereotypes
-Ilr
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
I'm not the one who is trying to change you...yeah.
Oh,
And if you come to understand, It will be OK yeah,
You need to change it Now!
I'm not the one who's tryin' to be...
your Enemy!
That's somethin' you need to change.
--
_________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
Flamewars: The only winning move is not to play.
http://www.xydexx.com/anthrofurry
Charles Melville
Cerulean wrote:
> Well, suddenly you sound a little more like a real person. Maybe if
> you more frequently treated online communication as if you were
> yourself talking to other real people, instead of a facade through
> which you can facelessly judge hundreds based on slightly less
> information than with which I judged you, you would find that people
> form more realistic perceptions of you. What do you think of that?
>
Where you getting that 'we' stuff from, paleface? -I- have a pretty
realistic perception of Rich -now-, and it's certainly a far cry from
yours.
--
-Chuck Melville-
http://www.zipcon.net/~cpam/index.htm
Charles Melville
Martin Skunk wrote:
> Daphne Lage wrote:
>
> > Yes, I have left furry fandom.
>
> What I don't understand is the LARGE thread this announce has
> generated. It's only an "official" announcement by Daphne, and now furs,
> based on that, are questioning yiffiness and some other characteristics
> of furry fandom.
>
> Such a way to say farewell. :b
>
Frankly, I agree.
One of the big dangers of topic drift. It sorta cheapens the impact of
her departure and puts an unhealthy pallor over the whole business. Instead
of a fond farewell party or a sincere wake, we've instead fallen to petty
bickering, which should have been transferred to another topic thread.
Maybe Daphne had the right idea after all. :(
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> b) an unwillingness to admit when you're wrong.
*cough* PKB *cough*
StukaFox
--
The most important question of 2001 will be 'Why aren't you fucking FURIOUS?'
Cerulean
>
>Cerulean wrote:
>
>> Well, suddenly you sound a little more like a real person. Maybe if
>> you more frequently treated online communication as if you were
>> yourself talking to other real people, instead of a facade through
>> which you can facelessly judge hundreds based on slightly less
>> information than with which I judged you, you would find that people
>> form more realistic perceptions of you. What do you think of that?
>>
>
> Where you getting that 'we' stuff from, paleface?
Where are _you_ getting it from?
> -I- have a pretty
>realistic perception of Rich -now-, and it's certainly a far cry from
>yours.
You have near-identical worldviews; duh. "Rich takes every opportunity
to persecute people with fantasy lives, who as we all know are
contaminating our fandom like a disease. He must be a well-adjusted
individual like me."
Hayley Wesson
>"Furrier than thou" is SACRAMENT on a.l.f.
I've been a member of a.l.f. for well over a year now, and this attitude
is something I've only seen occasionally from maybe 2 or three people.
Now, on the other hand, I'm _regularly_ seeing several people in here
claiming how much better they are than those in a.l.f......
<Here's where I chopped out a lot of my advice, cause it came out _way_
too blunt.> If I might make a suggestion, though, next time you run
across a post that seems to be of that type, take your time and attempt
to try to figure out what they were _really_ trying to say, instead of
just slamming your opinion down on top of it. Usenet being text based
and all does make it difficult to get what a person's motivations and
actual ideas are out of it, but I've found frequently that a lot of
posts, after actually paying attention to them instead of just a quick
read, aren't nearly so bad as they seemed at first.
G'nite, erm, morning... Uh, make that good almost lunchtime.. No wonder
I'm feeling crosseyed.. O.o
--
Hayley
(having pulled yet another allnighter
reinstalling winblows. *sigh* Spontaneous
reboots roughly every 10-20 minutes
_really_ start to suck after a while.)
unblah to email
Gene
Squeakypony, KSC) wrote:
>ilr wrote:
>>Anyone who considers Publishing Just-a-Hobby has too much
>>time on their hands IMO. -Ilr
>
>Heh. As a former zine publisher, I only wish I had that kinda time on my hands
>these days. I keep thinking about it, but the fact is I'm working on so many
>other projects right now I wouldn't have time to publish anything even if I
>could decide what I wanted to publish.
I'm not sure it has so much to do with too much time on their hands,
as how they approach it. Doing it right takes a lot of work. Doing it
wrong you can putter along at it.
I don't consider it "just-a-hobby" (the tax man certainly doesn't) but
it is something I do for fun and personal satisfaction.
Just my two-cents.
*******************************************************************
Gene Breshears, taipan{at}aa.net
"Humankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts."
--Plotinus
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
xyd...@BEsmartDONTSPAM.net> writes:
> In your opinion.
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were going to take the cheap cop-out
route. Let me step down the quote levels and try my last post again.
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC wrote:
> The only one who thinks lifestylers think they're superior to furry
> fans is you, Rich. Misinterpreting what they say to make it fit with
> your beliefs doesn't mean they actually hold those beliefs.
In your opinion.
> In reality, the myth that "lifestylers think they're superior to
> furry fans" has been debunked time and again by folks like Cerulean,
> Allen Kitchen, Locandez, and others on ALF. They use the word "just"
> the same way they'd use the word "only".
In your opinion.
Do you see now how cheap and stupid that tactic looks?
> [3] Hey, by the way, was that you who showed up
> at the Purple Nurple at FC2001 with a rose between your teeth?
> It sure looked like you.
No, that was Phil Morrissey, and Matt Henry, and Ursula Husted. But you only
have eyes for me, I guess. There's a story behind that that you will never be
told by me.
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
Mu.
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
>I don't consider it "just-a-hobby" (the tax man certainly doesn't) but
>it is something I do for fun and personal satisfaction.
Out of curiosity, wasn't there a tax law that said if your hobby made under
$400 in profits you didn't have to claim it on your taxes?
--
_________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
Pelzig
xyd...@BEsmartDONTSPAM.net (Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC) wrote:
> Gene Breshears wrote:
> >I don't consider it "just-a-hobby" (the tax man certainly doesn't) but
> >it is something I do for fun and personal satisfaction.
>
> Out of curiosity, wasn't there a tax law that said if your hobby made under
> $400 in profits you didn't have to claim it on your taxes?
Profit? What was that? ;)
TCASF,
Pelzig, former publisher of Viktoria's Secret, Furlined, and Fox One.
Charles Melville
Cerulean wrote:
> Quoth Charles Melville:
>
>
> > Where you getting that 'we' stuff from, paleface?
>
> Where are _you_ getting it from?
>
From right here:
>> Maybe if
>> you more frequently treated online communication as if you were
>> yourself talking to other real people, instead of a facade through
>> which you can facelessly judge hundreds based on slightly less
>> information than with which I judged you, you would find that people
>> form more realistic perceptions of you.
You seem to think a lot more of us are in agreement with your
assessment of Rich than really are.
Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
>Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC wrote:
>> under $400 in profits you didn't have to claim it on your taxes?
>
>Profit? What was that? ;)
What can I say, I'm an optomist. -:)
Charles Melville
"Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC" wrote:
> Gene Breshears wrote:
> >I don't consider it "just-a-hobby" (the tax man certainly doesn't) but
> >it is something I do for fun and personal satisfaction.
>
> Out of curiosity, wasn't there a tax law that said if your hobby made under
> $400 in profits you didn't have to claim it on your taxes?
>
And what does that tell you about Tai-Pan, then? (Keeping in mind that the
entire run of twenty-odd issues are still in print.)
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
> Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC wrote:
> > Gene Breshears wrote:
> > >I don't consider it "just-a-hobby" (the tax man certainly doesn't) but
> > >it is something I do for fun and personal satisfaction.
> >
> > Out of curiosity, wasn't there a tax law that said if your hobby made under
> > $400 in profits you didn't have to claim it on your taxes?
>
> And what does that tell you about Tai-Pan, then? (Keeping in mind that the
> entire run of twenty-odd issues are still in print.)
It tells me Gene's doing well. Doesn't really answer my question
though...
--
_________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
Anthrofurry Infocenter:
http://www.xydexx.com/anthrofurry
Cerulean
>Cerulean wrote:
>> Quoth Charles Melville:
>> > Where you getting that 'we' stuff from, paleface?
>>
>> Where are _you_ getting it from?
>
> From right here:
>
>>> Maybe if
>>> you more frequently treated online communication as if you were
>>> yourself talking to other real people, instead of a facade through
>>> which you can facelessly judge hundreds based on slightly less
>>> information than with which I judged you, you would find that people
>>> form more realistic perceptions of you.
Well, gee, let's both stare at it some more and wait until one of us
suddenly sees what the other does.
Cerulean
>If I might make a suggestion, though, next time you run
>across a post that seems to be of that type, take your time and attempt
>to try to figure out what they were _really_ trying to say, instead of
>just slamming your opinion down on top of it.
Ah, but what kind of advice is that? It won't help you _WIN_ if you
start thinking that way!