More fuel for the old helmet debate...
Brad
Saturday with my partner, Lothar. We climbed the usual stuff -- Cheap
Thrills, Let It Bleed, Mind Bender,etc. Lothar decided he wanted to lead a
climb called The Roof before we called it a day. The Roof is rated around
5.8 but has some run out sections on easier ground. He got through the crux
moves before the actual roof and was able to surmount the overhang using the
large jugs above it. He was now about 10 feet above the last bolt. From
this stance, the next pro is a bolt about 15 feet up and slightly left. The
climbing is this section is not hard, but is it run out. This is where the
story gets a bit fuzzy as Lothar has no recollection of the following
events. Out of the corner of my eye, I suddenly see him airborne heading for
the deck. I instinctively lock my break hand and he comes to a stop about
30 feet below his last stance. He's hanging upside-down and blood starts
streaming down the rock from his head. Lothar is unconscious and hangs
completely motionless for at least 15-20 seconds. I didn't want to lower
him head first, but was about ready to just as he started groaning. I was
quite relieved to hear his voice and see him slowly gain consciousness once
again. I started talking to him and got him to rotate his body sideways so
I could lower him to the deck without worrying about his head being dragged
down the rock. Lothar had a two inch gash in the back of his head and I
quickly placed gauss pads from the first aid kit over the wound and applied
pressure. The bleeding stopped fairly quickly and I secured the pads with
tape. He was now quite coherent, although a bit dizzy, and he passed all
the standard questions -- what's your name?, etc. Today was his lucky day,
it appeared he would be ok. I took him to the hospital where they stitched
him up and ran a few cat scans. He had some blood pooling between his skull
and brain and remains in the hospital as a precaution.
I figure posting this event serves as a reminder to us all that even on
easy, unprotected territory, mistakes or acts of god can and do happen.
I've been climbing without a helmet for 26 years and basically got Lothar
into this sport. Lothar is no amateur as he has climbed for over 5 years
and can lead 5.10 face all day. I suppose I "lead by example" and he does
not own a helmet as well. We fall all the time as we climb pretty close to
our max capabilities. However, these falls always occur at well protected
crux sections resulting in no more than a little road rash. I've never hit
my head in all these years of climbing (or had anything land on it!).
Climbing is dangerous. Man, I just had a wakeup call.....
-Brad
Tyto
protect against rockfall - a helmet here would likely have eliminated this
situation entirely. I bet you wear a seatbelt though......
glad to hear he'll be ok.
David Kastrup
Yesterday was climbing in the Eifel (yes, wearing a helmet). Was
leading when a sizable "pebble" I tried standing on shattered into two
(I really should lose weight) and the broken off part landed *very*
close to my belayer (not wearing helmet). If it had hit home, both
of us would have been in serious trouble.
I usually put my helmet on when in the area, and take it off when
leaving again.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
Email: David....@t-online.de
Madbolter
> Lothar decided he wanted to lead a
> climb called The Roof before we called it a day. The Roof is rated around
> 5.8 but has some run out sections on easier ground. He got through the crux
> moves before the actual roof and was able to surmount the overhang using the
> large jugs above it. He was now about 10 feet above the last bolt. From
> this stance, the next pro is a bolt about 15 feet up and slightly left. The
> climbing is this section is not hard, but is it run out.
Sorry your friend got hurt.
He was offroute. "The Roof" goes straight up, not up to the left after
the route's namesake. While the climbing might not have been difficult,
less travelled ways tend to still have friable flakes, dirt or other
complications. It's been over 10 years since I've been to Big Rock
but doesn't that section right after the roof take some pro? I think it
does, and that would've helped too. Big Rock was developed back before
sport climbing's all bolt routes.
-Rex Pieper
Christopher Brian Colohan
> I think people that lead without helmets are total fools. Helmets dont just
> protect against rockfall - a helmet here would likely have eliminated this
> situation entirely. I bet you wear a seatbelt though......
What amazes me is if you look in an issue of Rock & Ice or Climbing,
you will not see a single person wearing a helmet. If you flip
through John Long's book, you will not see a single helmet. Why the
hell not?
The majority of people at my local crags do not wear helmets, but they
are definitely not rare... Personally, I always wear a helmet, even
when toproping.
> glad to hear he'll be ok.
Me too.
Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: ch...@colohan.ca PGP: finger col...@cs.cmu.edu
Web: www.cs.cmu.edu/~colohan Phone: (412)268-4751
Brad Cooke
Christopher Brian Colohan wrote:
> What amazes me is if you look in an issue of Rock & Ice or Climbing,
> you will not see a single person wearing a helmet. [...]
Sport climbers and boulderers, maybe. Can't say I've too many pics of
alpine/ice climbers w/o helmets on.
BC
Michael E. Gordon
I'm too sexy for my shirt
Too sexy for my helmet
Too sexy for this rope
Too sexy
elmar
Man, I just had a wakeup call.....
better late than never...
e.stefke
Cartman
If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all.
David Kastrup
Would it have been nicer if he had been unhappy to hear the leader
will be ok?
Guido
> > I think people that lead without helmets are total fools.....
We need to judge such madness within the context of history, the spirit of
the day, and the skillset of safety.
I like to think that folks who are growing, cultures which are emerging, and
sports which are developing --- all provide one similar pattern.: the
oldsters in each of these groups appear neanderthal when viewed through a
modern lens. It's as though the previous age's golden boys were clueless
when evaluated with the perspective of today's today.
It wasn't long ago, for example, that NHL hockey players wore no headgear,
that NBA basketball players wore no mouth protectors, and that few
rockclimbers wore helmets. Those folks weren't fools; theirs was just the
dress and hardware which enjoyed currency in its day, an expression of
accepted practice.
As the management of risk has grown and each sport matured, players have
grown to better understand the risks and the tools at hand to ensure
longevity. But this is an emergence, a morph'ing of the culture of
climbing, and a hard-fought acknowledgement of the obvious which only
hindsight affords.
Still, many older climbers continue to dismiss the need for a helmet,
choosing to mitigate the risks of rockfall and leader falls with:
* making early starts
* choosing ridgeline ascents over open faces
* never climbing below others
* climbing within their abilities
* avoiding freeze-thaw cycle days
* moving quickly through likely rockfall zones
* seeking protected belays
* moving fast
These methods mitigate risk regardless of helmet usage but have remained the
hallmark of oldsters who continue to climb without head protection.
Obviously, they should appeal to the helmeted climber as well.
The game is not just to climb. It's to climb safely; ergo, it's to manage
risk.
Guides, the posterchildren of moderation, have long worn helmets as have
their clients, not just to mitigate liability issues or to reduce risk, but
to demonstrate commitment to the safest of standards. Were guides perhaps
leading the movement, ahead of the curve?
If so, then those who elect helmets may do well to continue their study of
safety by embracing modern rescue methods, again following the lead of
guides. That a helmet has spared your partner more serious injury from a
fall doesn't ensure that one's inability to manage the rescue may not do him
further damage. If Hippocrates was still climbing, he might admonish:
"Partner, do no further harm."
I wonder if those same safety-conscious, helmeted climbers who preach the
benefits of such safety would be able to escape the belay to assist an
injured leader, reach and secure an injured climber who is more than
half-rope out, or stabilize and rappel with an injured partner?
It's all one, very sophisticated complex of skills and decision-making
which, in the end, promote and perhaps, in some minor way, ensure safety.
While the helmet may be a fine addition, its inclusion is likely
begrudgingly necessary, but not sufficient, to ensure bragging rights back
in town.
Guido
Tyto
climbing. Even toproping. I bet this newsgroup could come up with 6 dozen
serious and legitamte sounding reasons why a helmet isnt necessary. They'd
all be bunk though.
Scott Grimes
"Michael E. Gordon" wrote
......it hurts.
Meow
Madbolter
Pop quiz hotshot: Do you wear one bouldering?
This question is not rhetorical.
Tell us you practice what you preach.
-Rex "bouldering: where every fall is a groundfall" Pieper
x15x15
Number one reason is if I wore a helmet then I would not be who I am on
wreck.climbing. Every group needs a good person to rip a part due to his
logic......................... or lack of.....................
x15 easy pick'ns x15
Brad
> Sorry your friend got hurt.
>
> He was offroute. "The Roof" goes straight up, not up to the left after
> the route's namesake. While the climbing might not have been difficult,
> less travelled ways tend to still have friable flakes, dirt or other
> complications. It's been over 10 years since I've been to Big Rock
> but doesn't that section right after the roof take some pro? I think it
> does, and that would've helped too. Big Rock was developed back before
> sport climbing's all bolt routes.
>
> -Rex Pieper
>
Actually, I meant slightly right -- not left. And yes, I suppose you could
put more pro in. However, he's been up this route a million times and could
probably free solo it. He fell after all the hard moves. Something went
terribly wrong -- he just doesn't remember. Maybe there's another lesson
about putting in some pro in the easier sections.....just in case. On
second thought, if you need pro on all the easy sections, you'd never be
able to lead half the stuff at Suicide or Tuolumne.
-Brad
Christopher Brian Colohan
> Christopher Brian Colohan may have spoken for many when he penned:
>
> > > I think people that lead without helmets are total fools.....
Please be careful how you quote. If you read my message, you will see
that I quoted someone else saying that, and I never said that myself.
Tyto
Tyto
while toproping? No, I didnt. WHy dont I do either, dumbass machismo "Ive
climbed here enough I know theres little dnager of rockfall blah blah blah"
and "Im only 6 feet off the ground with a spotter"
I never said I wasnt a foolish victim of the testosterone gotta look cool
and helmet arent sexy(as soneone has pointed out).
But I am intelligent and honest enough to admit that Im a damned fool when I
dont wear one.
Bill Zaumen
<str...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I never said I wasnt a foolish victim of the testosterone gotta look cool
> and helmet arent sexy(as soneone has pointed out).
>
> But I am intelligent and honest enough to admit that Im a damned fool when I
> dont wear one.
While it was a freak incident, I once heard a story from a climber who
had a close call due to wearing a helmet. He was on a short climb
in the 'Gunks (Keyhole ?), and went up a crack that first widened,
and then narrowed at a spot where you could go out onto the face.
Although only following the pitch, he moved his head up a bit and
leaned back to rest, and got his helmet got stuck in the crack.
He didn't feel comfortable letting go of the handholds, which meant
he couldn't unfasten the buckle, and the rope was running to the side
just enough that his partner couldn't support him on tension. The
possibility of hanging by the neck until dead did come to mind.
He described the situation and after what seemed like a minute his
partner, who was kind of taciturn, said, "hmmm." A minute or so later,
the suggestion that the crack was wider on the outside presented itself
and the climber shook his head back and forth, getting the helmet to
'walk' towards the outside of the crack.
Names have been deleted to protect the guilty.
Bill
--
As an anti-spam measure, my email address is only provided in a GIF
file. Please see <http://home.pacbell.net/zaumen/email.gif>.
Spammers can try mailto:s34...@aol.com mailto:sdkj34...@aol.com
Mike Shutters
news:y_yl8.8587$To6.2...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com...
>
> I never said I wasnt a foolish victim of the testosterone gotta look cool
> and helmet arent sexy(as soneone has pointed out).
>
> But I am intelligent and honest enough to admit that Im a damned fool when
I
> dont wear one.
>
At least it's still a choice.
Guido
context:
>> Christopher Brian Colohan may have spoken for many when he penned (oops):
>>
> > > I think people that lead without helmets are total fools.....
> Please be careful how you quote. If you read my message,
> you will see that I quoted someone else saying that,
> and I never said that myself.
> Chris
> Tyto also added:
> ditto, just backing up with more opinion what you said.
Yes, my apologies to you Chris for alluding the reference to you. And my
assurance to Tyto that next time I'll cut and paste more context in
fairness.
The effort was not intended to criticize, but to invite a broader picture of
issues in safety. And the "total fools" reference served as a perfect hook!
See the "self-rescue" thread which has resulted.
Now, in normal conversation, one might have just led the topic to rescue
methods. But, in the time-honored traditions of RC, I "punished the
published" instead!
Towards a kinder and gentler rec.climbing,
Guido
David Collins
> What amazes me is if you look in an issue of Rock & Ice or Climbing,
> you will not see a single person wearing a helmet. If you flip
> through John Long's book, you will not see a single helmet. Why the
> hell not?
You must mean the first of John Long's books. In "Advanced Rock
Climbing" there is at least on picture of Steph Davis wearing a helmet.
David
--
David Collins, Department of Physics
Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh PA 15213
Voice: (412) 268-2779 email:
coll...@andrew.cmu.edu
webpage: http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/collins5/index.html
Gnarling
> Christopher Brian Colohan may have spoken for many when he penned:
> > > I think people that lead without helmets are total fools.....
Guido pontificates:
> We need to judge such madness within the context of history, the spirit of
> the day, and the skillset of safety.
Geez, Guido, you talk a lot!
> I like to think that folks who are growing, cultures which are emerging, and
> sports which are developing --- all provide one similar pattern.: the
> oldsters in each of these groups
Always talking about "oldsters..."
> As the management of risk has grown and each sport matured, players have
> grown to better understand the risks and the tools at hand to ensure
> longevity. But this is an emergence, a morph'ing of the culture of
> climbing, and a hard-fought acknowledgement of the obvious which only
> hindsight affords.
Blah, blah, blah.
> Still, many older climbers continue to dismiss the need for a helmet,
more talk about "older climbers"
> These methods mitigate risk regardless of helmet usage but have remained the
> hallmark of oldsters
more old...
If Hippocrates was still climbing, he might admonish:
> "Partner, do no further harm."
Man, that is deep, real deep.
Sorry to flame you but you're getting on my nerves with all these
pearls of wisdom. Like we haven't talked about helmets, helmuts and
likes here for years. Why don't you post a trip report of a recent
climb instead of always talking about old climbers.
Inez
Old
George Marsden
it irritates me more to hear people making blanket statements about
what is the only safe way to climb. Historically climbing has been
about self reliance and decision making, and moves towards "rules"
really run counter to that. Wearing a helmet is a personal choice.
Each climber must be responsible for managing their own risk, whether
that means wearing a helmet or trusting fixed gear.
With the above disclaimer having been said, I never leave the ground
on lead or top rope without a helmet. I resolved to follow this
personal policy 4 years ago. I do not do this because I think that a
helmet is required for all of these climbs, I do it because if I
always wear my helmet I will never NOT be wearing it when I need it.
It is all too easy to start up a climb you need your helmet on
without it if you have not made it a standard part of your kit. I had
done this more than once before commiting myself to always wear a
helmet. I have personaly never found myself in a situation where I
thought "If I just wasn't wearing my helmet I would feel/be safer".
When I climb with others I always encourage them to wear helmets and
even offer one of my extra helmets if they want to borrow one. Most of
the people I have climbed regularly with or taught how to climb have
adopted my personal approach to helmets ( well at least most of the
time). I personal subversive plan is that if I show up a crag with
friends and we are all wearing helmets it will make the other folks
wonder if they are missing something. Subvert the dominant paradigm.
As a point of discussion, what role if any do think the outdoor retail
industry should play in encouraging helmet ownership/use?
When I worked as the climbing buyer for an outdoor shop I encouraged
the staff to present helmets as a standard part of the gear a beginner
needs. To support this I also got helmets included in the items for
which the customer got a discount when purchasing a basic set of
climbing gear (shoes, harness, chalkbag, belay device).
There is a dangerous irony in the fact that falls on lower angle
"beginner" climbs have a greater potential for flipping over and
hitting your head than steeper, harder climbs. It seems that many
people figure that a helmet is something you get when you are more
experienced. In many ways it is experience that would inform you when
a helmet is likely to be necessary, making them even more essential
for beginners.
-George Marsden
PS: And just in case you are wondering I do not wear a helmet
boudering. With graying hair and a growing gut one must have his
sacrifices to vanity. I am however a very conservative boulderer.
Dave Buchanan
> If you flip
> through John Long's book, you will not see a single helmet. Why the
> hell not?
John Long's *Advanced Rock Climbing* has helmets everywhere.
Hardman Knott
Guido
> Sorry to flame you but you're getting on my nerves with all these
> pearls of wisdom. Like we haven't talked about helmets, helmuts and
> likes here for years. Why don't you post a trip report of a recent
> climb instead of always talking about old climbers.
Yeah, I've been overdoing it. Dunno whether it's middle aged alz' settling
in early, or those busted ribs I'm resting after crashing down one chute too
steep in a recent BC ski tour. Likely both.
'Just too much time on my hands...and no trips 'til April and June. Argh!
Gotta control that coffee intake. Now where'd I put that cup?
Guido
Erik Sandelin
independently thinking than average people" and "Climbing is about
risk-management and each climber carefully evalutes the risks before
venturing onto a climb".
In my opinion vanity and "not want to be different" is as widespread
in climbing as anywhere. When it comes to the helmet issue I am fine
with helmless climbers who carefully evaluates the situation: Solid
rock, no people above, clean falls, ..... But the problem is that the
majority of helmless climbers are so because it doesn't look sexy,
their friends doesn't wear them and none of the cool climbers in the
magazines wear them (except for alpinists and ice-climbers).
I think showing more pictures of good climbers wearing helmets would
make a difference ( for the better ). Isn't it for example true that
the density of helmets on El Cap has changed in the last couple of
years ?
I also agree that for safe climbing ther's more to it than helmets.
Self rescue and first-aid are things all climbers should learn but
helmets is a first and easy step in the right direction.
Erik
brooke
> There is no good reason why _not_ to wear a helmet when
> climbing. Even toproping. I bet this newsgroup could come up with 6 dozen
> serious and legitamte sounding reasons why a helmet isnt necessary.
1) Helmets are hot.
2) Helmets are uncomfortable.
3) Helmets cost too much.
4) Helmets look stupid.
5) My girlfriend won't give me head if I wear one.
6) I don't really care if I die.
7) I don't really care if my partner dies too.
8) I forgot it at home.
9) I forgot it in the car.
etc.
> They'd all be bunk though.
Sez you. During our daily lives we make countless decisions regarding
acceptable risk. One of the decisions regarding acceptable risk you
have made is that you climb. There are lots of people out there ready
to condemn you as a total fool for climbing. Because my level of
acceptable risk (and my partner's too if they climb with me when I
don't wear a helmet) is different than yours doesn't make me a total
fool.
Before you try to blindly label me a total macho fool, take the
following quiz:
1) Do you drive above the speed limit?
2) Do you smoke?
3) Do you drink alcohol?
4) Do you eat foods high in saturated fat?
5) Do you engage in unprotected sex?
If you do even one of those things, you are putting yourself at risk
for an early grave. And I'll be the first one to call you a total
macho fool.
Brooke "totally x-treeem" Hoyer
Tim Stich
Yes indeed, all bunk. However, here's a short list why I don't wear my
helmet sport climbing in town:
1. I forgot my helmet.
2. It's too hot outside.
3. I have a headache and the helmet makes it worse.
4. My helmet is too big and looks silly.
5. My helmet is bright green and ugly.
6. My helmet has too much dead skin and dirt worked into the chin
strap.
7. No one else is wearing one, so I don't need it.
8. My helmet won't fit in the pack and it bothers me to carry it
dangling around.
9. Someone might take a picture of me in my stupid helmet.
10. My butt itches.
On the other hand, I *always* wear a helmet leading trad and climbing
in areas with loose rock, ie. Potrero Chico, Continental Ranch, TX, or
any wilderness area. Some day, I'll buy a cool looking helmet to wear
sport climbing, one with range-finding lasers and a camera. That's the
ticket.
-Tim
Tyto
the one thing you listed, which is driving above the speed limit, I am being
a dumbass. I dont hide behind wording like "acceptable risk". Is it so hard
to admit that you're a fool for doing something thats dangerous?
Mike Garrison
>
> the one thing you listed, which is driving above the speed limit, I am being
> a dumbass. I dont hide behind wording like "acceptable risk". Is it so hard
> to admit that you're a fool for doing something thats dangerous?
You are asking this in a climbing forum? Who's the fool
here?
-Mike
N42461
>But the problem is that the
>majority of helmless climbers are so because it doesn't look sexy,
>their friends doesn't wear them and none of the cool climbers in the
>magazines wear them (except for alpinists and ice-climbers).
"Got Proof" or you just think so? The mag pix we'll make a gimme.
I'd venture (with as little proof) many folks who climb helmetless do so
because they prefer to. Not because they are ignorant of risk, or want to look
sexy, but perhaps because they damn well please to. And perhaps they don't feel
the need to give a reason to anyone.
'Course you could always have the 'Gate Rangers' take away their belay
licences. Better yet, throw in using a hip belay or a bowline tie-in or a
single sling anchor to the list of offences........
nathan sweet
Dawn Alguard
>
> But the problem is that the
> majority of helmless climbers are so because it doesn't look sexy,
> their friends doesn't wear them and none of the cool climbers in the
> magazines wear them (except for alpinists and ice-climbers).
Geez, I'm sick of this line of reasoning. It makes me wonder if
the people using it have ever actually worn a helmet themselves.
Helmets are hot and uncomfortable and they make you smash your
head into the rock a lot. I wear my seatbelt always because it
causes me no pain. I wear my helmet when the benefit of wearing
it exceeds the nuisance of the things listed above. I don't give
a damn how I look while I'm climbing and I've never met anyone
who did. Have you ever *looked* at a climber? Aside from posed
bikini-clad chicks on magazine covers, we aren't exactly paragons
of beauty. A helmet can only help by hiding what we can loosely
call our hair after 6 days without a shower.
Dawn
brooke
1) Tyto, please learn how to use the "quote from previous message"
feature on your newsreader. I went back and looked at several of your
past submissions to rec.climbing and found some of them difficult to
understand because of a lack of context. Geeze, you must be a total
moron for not knowing how to do that.
2) Using your logic, race car drivers are total fools. Boxers are
total fools. How about you go tell that to Mike Tyson. I'd pay to see
that. Construction workers on high rise buildings are total fools.
Policemen are total fools. Firefighters are total fools. I have to say
that I like having certain total fools around. The US soldiers in
Afghanistan are total fools. The crab fishermen in Alaska are total
fools.
You're a dumbass alright -- but it ain't for speeding.
Brooke "total fool" Hoyer
Dingus Milktoast
>
> Erik Sandelin wrote:
> >
> > But the problem is that the
> > majority of helmless climbers are so because it doesn't look sexy,
> > their friends doesn't wear them and none of the cool climbers in the
> > magazines wear them (except for alpinists and ice-climbers).
>
> Geez, I'm sick of this line of reasoning. It makes me wonder if
> the people using it have ever actually worn a helmet themselves.
> Helmets are hot and uncomfortable and they make you smash your
Right on Dawn.
Let's assume for a moment that Erik is more correct than
incorrect, that many of us choose to not wear a helmet based
on less than sound reasoning, and sometimes for outright
vanity.
Let's say I'm guilty of this from time to time. How would I
know? I ask the guilty question at the car as we gear up for
a climb...
"Did you bring your helmet?" I ask as I glance at my own
scared up cap.
"Uh, no, I forgot it. It's hanging on the wall in the
garage." Answers my climbing partner.
So I leave the helmet in the car.
Was that based on a sound assessment of the dangers
anticipated this day? Sure, in part. If it was an ice climb
I'd take the damn helmet anyway and be quite snide as I
watched my partner dodge missiles all day. But this is a
sport climbing day at a crag I've been to more times than I
can count. I know it's fairly safe.
But a helmet doesn't do you any good in the car. And I would
have taken it had my partner also done so. I left it behind
to avoid being the Lone Dork today. Sometimes I'm OK with
it. Other days I just can't bear the cross by myself.
So yeah, I'd say Erik is probably correct with some of his
unsupported suspicions, at least in my case and of some of
those with whom I climb. I'd say it applies to many
climbers, at least from time to time. Perhaps even most
climbers?
That gets me to my questions for Erik...
So people don't wear helmets for vanity reasons. So what?
Some people actually climb for reasons of vanity too. People
buy certain cars, wear certain clothes, go to great lengths
(or not) to gussy themselves up for reasons of vanity. They
buy certain styles of houses, outfit them with furniture,
and conduct themselves in large measures based upon their
vanities. Some people's entire lives are structured around
their vanities.
So friggin what? Are you a robot or a human? Have you never
done anything stupid, frivolous or petty out of vanity?
I sometimes avoid wearing a helmet for reasons of vanity.
There. I said it.
DMT
kreighton
"Dingus Milktoast" wrote
<snip>
> But a helmet doesn't do you any good in the car. And I would
> have taken it had my partner also done so. I left it behind
> to avoid being the Lone Dork today. Sometimes I'm OK with
> it. Other days I just can't bear the cross by myself.
<snip>
> I sometimes avoid wearing a helmet for reasons of vanity.
> There. I said it.
Well put Dingus. Glad someone finally said it.
kreighton
Geoff Jennings
> There. I said it.
Me too. Although I frequently avoid them for reasons like they are hot and
heavy.
One of the things I love about my GF is that, even at New jack, on Toprope,
she whips out her helmet. She doesn'
t give a shit what anyone else thinks.
Of course, she looks cute in it.....
http://www.texaskilonewton.com/climbingpictures/pictures.html
Geoff
BKR
> Helmets are hot and uncomfortable and they make you smash your
> head into the rock a lot. I wear my seatbelt always because it
> causes me no pain. I wear my helmet when the benefit of wearing
> it exceeds the nuisance of the things listed above. I don't give
> a damn how I look while I'm climbing and I've never met anyone
> who did. Have you ever *looked* at a climber? Aside from posed
> bikini-clad chicks on magazine covers, we aren't exactly paragons
> of beauty. A helmet can only help by hiding what we can loosely
> call our hair after 6 days without a shower.
>
> Dawn
>
This is exactly the way I feel about helmets. I've never liked them
because they simply suck on rock. On ice, (at least in my experience)
there is less banging my head. On rock, however, all I seem to do is
bang into things when wearing a helmet. I have no instinct for how BIG
my head really is with one on so I constantly hit things with my head.
That is not simply annoying, it's tiresome and often painful. They also
affect how well I can hear my partner, make me sweat like a horse and
give me headaches. I do still wear my helmet in places like the Gunks
or Seneca, but rarely (read never) when toproping an area where there is
not a large chance of rockfall.
That said, my daughter is forced (by me) to wear a helmet every time she
climbs. She hates it as much as I do, but puts up with it because she
likes climbing. I hope this practice will continue after she is old
enough to make the decision to wear or not to wear for herself.
bkr
Erik Sandelin
> >Erik Sandelin
>
> >But the problem is that the
> >majority of helmless climbers are so because it doesn't look sexy,
> >their friends doesn't wear them and none of the cool climbers in the
> >magazines wear them (except for alpinists and ice-climbers).
>
> "Got Proof" or you just think so? The mag pix we'll make a gimme.
No, I haven't made a comprehensive study interviewing 100
representative climbers. But, what I have done is observed climbers
and many of the helmless people doesn't behave like they know what
they are doing and what risks they are exposing themselves to.
The only "proof" I have is helmets on bigwalls in Yosemite. When I
started climbing 10 years ago pictures of bigwallclimbers wearing
helmets were very rare, whereas today it is the opposite.
Erik
Jay Tanzman
Geoff Jennings wrote:
> Of course, she looks cute in it.....
That's what I was going to say.
-Jay
Pat Caruthers
Geoff Jennings wrote:
. . .
> One of the things I love about my GF is that, even at New jack, on Toprope,
> she whips out her helmet. She doesn'
> t give a shit what anyone else thinks.
>
> Of course, she looks cute in it.....
'course, it's a lot easier to not care what others think
if the significant others still think yer cute... :-}
pat
Brutus of Wyde
> I think people that lead without helmets are total fools.
Goody for you. I think all people who make statements which are
unqualified blanket stereotypes are... uhh, nevermind...
OK -- Show of hands: How many people lead in the rock gym wearing a
helmet?
Just you and me, Tyto?
Actually I don't, but I didn't want you to be the only one in the room
with your hand in the air...
There are times when wearing a helmet is a good choice. There are
times when wearing a helmet is not a good choice. It Depends. [TM]
> glad to hear he'll be ok.
Me too.
Brutus
Dave Buchanan
> OK -- Show of hands: How many people lead in the rock gym wearing a
> helmet?
I'm pretty sure you and Em were there when I did it a time or two
at Class 5...(when the Rad Wall had man-eating gravel instead
of Teva Rubber)
Do I get extra points for using and old Giro bike helmet?
Hardman Knott
Larry Lindeman
<snip>
>5) My girlfriend won't give me head if I wear one.
I'd put the helmet on when you are done though, because your wife is going to be
really pissed.
<snip>
>5) Do you engage in unprotected sex?
>
So, how is fatherhood treating you?
>Brooke "totally x-treeem" Hoyer
I really do appreciate the irony in you listing reasons why one should not wear
a helmet.
-Larry
Erik Sandelin
> the people using it have ever actually worn a helmet themselves.
> Helmets are hot and uncomfortable and they make you smash your
> head into the rock a lot. I wear my seatbelt always because it
> causes me no pain. I wear my helmet when the benefit of wearing
> it exceeds the nuisance of the things listed above. I don't give
> a damn how I look while I'm climbing and I've never met anyone
> who did. Have you ever *looked* at a climber? Aside from posed
> bikini-clad chicks on magazine covers, we aren't exactly paragons
> of beauty. A helmet can only help by hiding what we can loosely
> call our hair after 6 days without a shower.
>
Well, if you had read my post carefuly you would have noticed that I
use the word "majority" and not the word "all". If you find them
uncomfortable and decide not to wear them that's fine with me. That
means that at least you tried it and then weighted benefits against
discomfort. But once again, I don't belive that the majority of
helmless people do this calculation.
Erik
Christopher Brian Colohan
> OK -- Show of hands: How many people lead in the rock gym wearing a
> helmet?
>
> Just you and me, Tyto?
No, actually, I do. I like my head. I could care less if I look
dumb, and I have a helmet that is actually rather comfortable...
Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: ch...@colohan.ca PGP: finger col...@cs.cmu.edu
Web: www.cs.cmu.edu/~colohan Phone: (412)268-4751
Brutus of Wyde
> Have you ever *looked* at a climber? Aside from posed
> bikini-clad chicks on magazine covers, we aren't exactly paragons
> of beauty. A helmet can only help by hiding what we can loosely
> call our hair after 6 days without a shower.
Alright, I'm calling BS to this one. I still have my very own "Women
of Rec.Climbing" calendar (stains and sticky pages and all,) and I've
either met or seen webstuff on most of the rest of you, and it
confirms that Vermicelli Senoirita ain't got nothin' on you ladies.
Just because you're not stalked does not mean you are ignored.
Helmets are sexy, except in squeeze chimneys.
Brutus
Will Niccolls
> helmless people do this calculation.
>
> Erik
I'm not so sure of that. What I want to know is, who of you takes greater
risks because they are wearing helmets? I've heard there is active research
in the area of compensatory risk, the theory being that a person is
naturally comfortable with a given level of risk in their life, and when one
risk is reduced, they compensate by accepting another risky behaviour.
Replace your car with one that has airbags, but drive faster than in your
old car. Do cardiovascular excercise to reduce heart risk, but eat more red
meat.
If you backed off Jules Verne (Eldo, 5.11, bigass fall) without a helmet,
would you have the confidence to go for it while wearing one? Do you
mountain bike faster with your helmet on? (The ethic in mountain biking is
this: If you aren't wearing a helmet, you look like an idiot, no matter
your babe factor)
Will Niccolls
Erik Sandelin
>
> So people don't wear helmets for vanity reasons. So what?
> Some people actually climb for reasons of vanity too. People
> buy certain cars, wear certain clothes, go to great lengths
> (or not) to gussy themselves up for reasons of vanity. They
> buy certain styles of houses, outfit them with furniture,
> and conduct themselves in large measures based upon their
> vanities. Some people's entire lives are structured around
> their vanities.
>
> So friggin what? Are you a robot or a human? Have you never
> done anything stupid, frivolous or petty out of vanity?
Of course not. I am a perfect superhuman and I have never felt a
competitive pressure when I climb :-)
But we seem to agree on my main point. Vanity is widespread in
climbing, as in ordinary life. Even a seasoned climber like Dingus
admitt to it! So what I am after is that we should not pretend that
our actions and appearances on the cliffs doesn't affect other
climbers. If I do something stupid on the rock ( which of course I
never do, but for the sake of the argument...) then I should be aware
that some other climber might think that's the way to do it and get
himself into trouble. And we shouldn't belive that pictures in
climbing magazines doesn't affect climbers.
Erik
Eric D. Coomer
"Erik Sandelin" <erik.s...@stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:8bd1a5e2.02032...@posting.google.com...
> So what I am after is that we should not pretend that
> our actions and appearances on the cliffs doesn't affect other
> climbers. If I do something stupid on the rock ( which of course I
> never do, but for the sake of the argument...) then I should be aware
> that some other climber might think that's the way to do it and get
> himself into trouble.
If ANYONE ever "copies" me: 1) they're idiots 2) not my fault. You know
that age old saying your mom was so fond of? Buyer beware.
I wear a helmet on ice, alpine, walls... and RARELY ever while out just
climbing (eldo, the valley, indian creek whatever). Just don't care to. If
it's a lead near my limit and has some funky fall potential- I *may* put it
on (I usually have it in my pack), but 99% of the time it's just extra
weight I carry around.
e
Bill Zaumen
Niccolls" <willni...@SPAMTHIShotmail.com> wrote:
> >But once again, I don't belive that the majority of
> > helmless people do this calculation.
> >
> > Erik
>
> I'm not so sure of that. What I want to know is, who of you takes greater
> risks because they are wearing helmets? ....
I don't think risk compensation applies to helmet use, given the
discomfort of breaking a leg or getting otherwise mangled. Where it
would apply is for things that improve your performance, such as
better shoes: you'll feel more solid and will be able to do harder
climbs with the same safety margin as before.
Bill
--
As an anti-spam measure, my email address is only provided in a GIF
file. Please see <http://home.pacbell.net/zaumen/email.gif>.
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Charles Vernon
> Dawn Alguard wrote:
> >
> > Erik Sandelin wrote:
> > >
> > > But the problem is that the
> > > majority of helmless climbers are so because it doesn't look sexy,
> > > their friends doesn't wear them and none of the cool climbers in the
> > > magazines wear them (except for alpinists and ice-climbers).
> >
> > Geez, I'm sick of this line of reasoning. It makes me wonder if
> > the people using it have ever actually worn a helmet themselves.
> > Helmets are hot and uncomfortable and they make you smash your
> > head into the rock a lot. <snip>
<snip lots>
>
> That gets me to my questions for Erik...
>
> So people don't wear helmets for vanity reasons. So what?
> Some people actually climb for reasons of vanity too. People
> buy certain cars, wear certain clothes, go to great lengths
> (or not) to gussy themselves up for reasons of vanity. They
> buy certain styles of houses, outfit them with furniture,
> and conduct themselves in large measures based upon their
> vanities. Some people's entire lives are structured around
> their vanities.
>
> So friggin what? Are you a robot or a human? Have you never
> done anything stupid, frivolous or petty out of vanity?
I must say in Erk's defense (aside from the basic issue of whether or
not to wear), the difference seems to be that none of these other
things that people do for reasons of vanity expose them to unnecessary
dangers (unless maybe you drive too fast in your sleek sports car).
Dingus Milktoast
>
> I must say in Erk's defense (aside from the basic issue of whether or
> not to wear), the difference seems to be that none of these other
> things that people do for reasons of vanity expose them to unnecessary
> dangers (unless maybe you drive too fast in your sleek sports car).
What about surfers? Skiers? Snow boarders? Speed skaters?
What of fighter pilots? Firemen? What about hunters? What
about teenaged males? Electricians? What about bakers? How
about sex workers? Artists? Politicians? Now there's a group
that NEVER does anything self destructively stupid for
reasons of vanity! What if you drive too fast in the family
van trying to catch up for another glimpse at that cute
little hottie in the fast lane, loose control, wreck and
kill 12 innocent people? I'd suggest that all of humanity is
at least tempted to do dangerous things based in part on
reasons of vanity. Aren't you? Do you have any blood in your
veins man? Does it not run with heat? Do you not feel it?
Are you not ALIVE!
Whew! I'm gettin cranked up now!
Erik contends that not wearing a helmet is *most* often
based upon various reasons of vanity and then backed up with
rationalizations to justify. That charge is unsubstantiated.
I acknowledged that vanity has played a roll in my career
for not wearing a helmet. But I also said that there are
times when safety concern overrides that vanity, at
precisely the times when you'd expect it to. I offered that
vanity is a human condition that applies to everything we
do, dangerous or not.
I don't believe that *most* climbers choose to go without a
helmet simply out of reasons of vanity. I do believe it
plays a roll with many of us though, with some more than
others, with some of us more than we'd care to admit to
ourselves much less anyone else. I agree with Erik that role
models do affect the tendencies of newcomers. Having seen a
dramatic increase in helmeted climbers in recent years, I'm
struck with the question,
So what's the problem here? I would suggest that most
climbers at least own a helmet these days, and that was
certainly not the case when I got started. Further, I see
that most people are wearing helmets on most of the routes I
do these days. Places where helmets do not see a lot of
action are the places you'd expect (due, in part, to
decreased risks of head injury), overhanging sport climbing,
bouldering, at the gym, an old timers convention, etc. Now
are all of these helmetless people doing so simply for
reasons of vanity?
There was a time when most pics of ice climbers in magazines
did not wear helmets. That was the reality of the climbing
population at the time. Now it's probably rare to see one
without. Most climbers I see in the Sierra BC are wearing
helmets (or toting them), 15 years ago that was not the
case.
I'd say the trend is toward more and more helmet use. This
has been a natural progression in our sport. The leading
magazines have played a significant role in this
transformation, helping us all to better understand the
risks and the results of head injuries.
This same issue is played out in the motorcycle world, ad
nauseum. There, where it is patently obvious and easily
demonstrable that helmets reduce risk of serious head
injury, you still see pics of scantily clad babes and buff
dudes standing next to or riding on their their souped up
Harleys and whatnot, *without* helmets. Is it risky, to pose
this way? Hehe, I can't answer that with a straight face. Is
it done for vanity or aesthetic reasons? Sure it is. Would
these people be tempted to ride without a helmet from time
to time? If you'd ever ridden a motorbike down a country
lane with the wind blowing through your hair, you'd
understand that motorcycle enthusiasts and climbers have a
lot in common, a lot. Some urges go deeper than dry,
practical common sense.
For both of us, bikers and climbers alike, there is more to
life than a strict analysis of costs/benefits/risks.
Otherwise we wouldn't do the things we do. There is an
element of free spirit at work, an eternal child that
refuses to acknowledge the adult world of practicalities.
It drives us to climb in the first place, to feel the naked
exhilaration of being alive and it drives us to risk it all
in seemingly frivolous gestures. Is it something we need to
control, this faintly suicidal urge? Yes, to an extent. But
the day we lose touch with that little daredevil in our
souls is the day we cease to be climbers, we get off the
motorcycles. We stop doing the things that bring on
unnecessary risk. And once we're on that path, the ending is
a foregone conclusion.
We sell the climbing gear. We sell the bikes. We cross
streets in the crosswalks. We eat only the right things in
the right proportion. We always follow the rules. We do as
we're told. I don't know about you, but living strictly for
risk reduction seems to be ill focused, a look toward the
the cold, damp finality of the ground and not a bold gesture
toward the stars. I think our world would be duller and more
boring without those little madmen in our hearts.
Now obviously, it's never going to go that far. There are
too many of us still willing to let our hair blow in the
wind to ever let the conservative, "thou shalt not" crowd
regulate us to death. I say the magazines have reflected the
reality of our community (and you won't see me admit that
very often) in terms of helmet use. They have also pushed
the activism bit as far as they can with a crowd such as us.
What more would you have them do and still reflect the
reality of their readership?
To hell with helmets. Long live the helmets.
DMT
Mike Garrison
>
> "Erik Sandelin" <erik.s...@stanford.edu> wrote in message
> news:8bd1a5e2.02032...@posting.google.com...
> > So what I am after is that we should not pretend that
> > our actions and appearances on the cliffs doesn't affect other
> > climbers. If I do something stupid on the rock ( which of course I
> > never do, but for the sake of the argument...) then I should be aware
> > that some other climber might think that's the way to do it and get
> > himself into trouble.
>
> If ANYONE ever "copies" me: 1) they're idiots 2) not my fault. You know
> that age old saying your mom was so fond of? Buyer beware.
But Eric, after Charles Barkley wouldn't let me use him as
my role model, I settled for you. Now you are turning down
the job as well?
-Mike
Brutus of Wyde
OK, yes, I remember now. When you get to be my age you start to
develop some holes in your recollection. I forget what its called...
A couple issues come to bear on increased helmet usage:
Climbing is today far more mainstream than it was 30 years ago. While
not getting into the chicken-or-egg discussion, sport climbing and
helmet usage are a reflection of this (or vice versa), while sport
climbing remains likely the one discipline of the pursuit that sees
the least helmet usage [excluding bouldering]
Helmet technology has made great strides in the past 30 years,
beginning with the development and application of the Snell Foundation
standards. Early helmets were heavy, hot, and unwieldy. Elimination of
two out of the three ain't bad (and those of you who complain that
helmets still are heavy and hot have obviously never done El Cap in
july during a heat wave wearing an American Safety
styrofoam-insulated-dying-of-heat-gotta-bail-those-swimmers-in-the-merced-keep-splashing-that's-it-I've-HAD-it-let's-get-the-h*ll-out-of-here-ON-RAPPEL!
but I digress yet again)
Brutus
Eric D. Coomer
"Mike Garrison" <mike.g...@boeing.com> wrote in message
news:3C9A40E1...@boeing.com...
> But Eric, after Charles Barkley wouldn't let me use him as
> my role model,
I guarantee! Barkley could NOT hang... Rodman... maybe, Barkley, no way in
hell. Even I can't keep up with Emily though- much better choice, though
you may have some problems fitting the clothes there Mike- Rodman wouldn't
though.
If you want, join us in Red Rocks last week of April first week of May.
Climbing the first part of the trip, but then Sasha and Digweed are playing
so it's party central. If you can keep up without settling into a coma...
I'll be impressed. There's enough time to start training now.
e
Guido
"My goal is to never become an 'a-dull-t'."
Sorry, too much time listening to adolescents....
Guido
kellie mcbee
>
>
> the day we lose touch with that little daredevil in our
> souls is the day we cease to be climbers, we get off the
> motorcycles. We stop doing the things that bring on
> unnecessary risk. And once we're on that path, the ending is
> a foregone conclusion.
>
> We sell the climbing gear. We sell the bikes. We cross
> streets in the crosswalks. We eat only the right things in
> the right proportion. We always follow the rules. We do as
> we're told. I don't know about you, but living strictly for
> risk reduction seems to be ill focused, a look toward the
> the cold, damp finality of the ground and not a bold gesture
> toward the stars. I think our world would be duller and more
> boring without those little madmen in our hearts.
Yeah Dingus! Reminded me of this little gem:
You can live on bland food so as to avoid an ulcer; drink no tea or
coffee or other stimulants, in the name of health; go to bed early and
stay away from night life; avoid all controversial subjects so as
never to give offense; mind your own business and avoid involvement in
other people's problems; spend money only on necessities and save all
you can. You can still break your neck in the bathtub, and it will
serve you right. --Eileen Guder
Kellie, helmet-wearer (most of the time)
Erik Sandelin
> helmet simply out of reasons of vanity. I do believe it
> plays a roll with many of us though, with some more than
> others, with some of us more than we'd care to admit to
> ourselves much less anyone else. I agree with Erik that role
> models do affect the tendencies of newcomers. Having seen a
> dramatic increase in helmeted climbers in recent years, I'm
> struck with the question,
OK. Most or many, it doesn't matter. We will never know the answer
anyway ( Imagine though the research grant proposal: "The influence of
vanity on the observed frequency of helmet-use in climbing
communities." )
I agree with Dingus that "Free spirit" is the essence of climbing and
what makes me love this sport so much. If we were to never follow our
hearts and only think analytical and rational all the time climbing
would be boring. I just 惑elive the helmet-issue illustrates that you
can't take the Free spirit for granted. Just because you climb doesn't
mean you will have a free spirit. If your heart tells you to go
climbing without a helmet. Do it! But don't leave your helmet in the
car when you want to wear it just because your friends doesn't wear
them.
Erik
Charles Vernon
faintly silly at the same time. If I ever discover myself having
given up climbing in favor of "living strictly for risk reduction",
I'll know who to blame-drag that dastardly helmet out from deep in the
closet and smash it to bits.
Two of my regular partners (and good friends) don't wear helmets
(though they both think it's a very good idea), so in the meantime I
can at least get some blood pumping through my veins vicariously!
Charles
Dingus Milktoast <crha...@midtown.net> wrote in message news:<3C9A39E8...@midtown.net>...
MMooney727
that Aspen now requires all children in ski lessons to wear helmets.
I'm working on a ski design that will limit speed to 5 mph.
Michael A. Riches
mmoon...@aol.com wrote on 3/21/02 9:34 PM:
> This thread has been on topic long enough. I heard on the radio this morning
> that Aspen now requires all children in ski lessons to wear helmets.
>
> I'm working on a ski design that will limit speed to 5 mph.
>
>
That's easy...Put yer skins on backwards....
Ratzzz...(Problem solved...)
Bill Zaumen
mmoon...@aol.com (MMooney727) wrote:
I have one I used on a trip to Alaska, where I needed a lot of
traction to haul a pack in a sled. I took some nylon cord
(about 7mm in diameter), tied a loop in the top, and criss crossed
in around the bottoms of the skis.
This made them slow when going down hill as well, which was a real
advantage given the weight of my pack. At least it was cost
effective and worked well given the snow conditions (we were in
southeast Alaska).
On the way out, after finishing our climb, we spent a couple of days
in a valley part way down and did a short ski trip, where I could
simply remove the cord so the skis would glide well (using wax instead).
Mike Yukish
Charles Vernon wrote:
>
> I must say in Erk's defense (aside from the basic issue of whether or
> not to wear), the difference seems to be that none of these other
> things that people do for reasons of vanity expose them to unnecessary
> dangers (unless maybe you drive too fast in your sleek sports car).What about surfers? Skiers? Snow boarders? Speed skaters?
What of fighter pilots?
Here's why I wear a helmet 24/7, even as I type this (my bold):
A 50-year-old construction worker in Knoxville, Tenn.,
survived his Jan. 14 impalement by a 3-foot-long,
3-inch-thick metal rod that fell off of a bridge and
which went point-first through the man's skull and
neck, coursed down his trunk, and stopped only
when completely embedded in his body. He was
semiconscious at the scene but talkative later at
the University of Tennessee Medical Center.
The man was not wearing the required hard hat.
[Knoxville News Sentinel, 1-16-02, 1-25-02]
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
news:3C9B39F5...@psu.edu...
Wow. Um, and a helmet would've helped, how?
- Sumo
Andy Gale
Jeremy the Sumo Climber wrote:
> "Mike Yukish" <may...@psu.edu> wrote in message
> Here's why I wear a helmet 24/7, even as I type this (my bold):
> A 50-year-old construction worker in Knoxville, Tenn.,
> survived his Jan. 14 impalement by a 3-foot-long,
> 3-inch-thick metal rod that fell off of a bridge and
> which went point-first through the man's skull and
> neck, coursed down his trunk, and stopped only
> when completely embedded in his body. He was
> semiconscious at the scene but talkative later at
> the University of Tennessee Medical Center.
> The man was not wearing the required hard hat.
> [Knoxville News Sentinel, 1-16-02, 1-25-02]
> From http://www.newsoftheweird.com/archive/index.html
>
>
> Wow. Um, and a helmet would've helped, how?
Instead of the metal rod going cleanly thru skull, neck and torso, it
would have been partially deflected and shattered the helmet, thus
bringing along helmet shards with it in its altered path through the
man's body. These shards would've acted sort of like shrapnel and would
have resulted in much more damage, thus saving the hospital and his
insurance company huge bills since he would have been DOA. That's how
it would have helped.
Andy
Mike Yukish
> Jeremy the Sumo Climber wrote:
>
> > "Mike Yukish" <may...@psu.edu> wrote in message
>
> > A 50-year-old construction worker in Knoxville, Tenn.,
> > survived his Jan. 14 impalement by a 3-foot-long,
> > 3-inch-thick metal rod that fell off of a bridge and
> > which went point-first through the man's skull and
> > neck, coursed down his trunk, and stopped only
> > when completely embedded in his body.
> >
> > Wow. Um, and a helmet would've helped, how?
>
> Instead of the metal rod going cleanly thru skull, neck and torso, it
> would have been partially deflected and shattered the helmet, thus
> bringing along helmet shards with it in its altered path through the
> man's body.
Andy, you need to sell your ceramic helmet (made in a kiln?) and get a
plastic one.
Josh Beck
> In article <mO9m8.115$Xp5...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Will
> Niccolls" <willni...@SPAMTHIShotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >But once again, I don't belive that the majority of
> > > helmless people do this calculation.
> > >
> > > Erik
> >
> > I'm not so sure of that. What I want to know is, who of you takes greater
> > risks because they are wearing helmets? ....
>
> I don't think risk compensation applies to helmet use, given the
> discomfort of breaking a leg or getting otherwise mangled. Where it
> would apply is for things that improve your performance, such as
> better shoes: you'll feel more solid and will be able to do harder
> climbs with the same safety margin as before.
Bullshit. I've definitely lead some things that I would only lead with
a helmet on, and I've declined the lead on pitches due to lack of
helmet. Erik's totally right on. Having a helmet on can make (me at
least) a little bit less of a total wimp :) I rapped off the Weeping
Wall when my helmet split in two (Erik saw the helmet) rather than
catch the constant bowling alley fire that you get on that thing with
a non-functional helmet. I felt risky enough with a helmet on climbing
under that much ice fall, with a broken helmet I felt like
get-me-the-fuck-outta-here-there's-cocoa-waiting-in-the-car.
..josh
..josh
Bill Zaumen
josh-...@assimilation.org (Josh Beck) wrote:
> > I don't think risk compensation applies to helmet use, given the
> > discomfort of breaking a leg or getting otherwise mangled. Where it
> > would apply is for things that improve your performance, such as
> > better shoes: you'll feel more solid and will be able to do harder
> > climbs with the same safety margin as before.
>
> Bullshit. I've definitely lead some things that I would only lead with
> a helmet on, and I've declined the lead on pitches due to lack of
> helmet. Erik's totally right on.
With the exception of wearing one for protection against minor rock or ice
fall, I would never consider wearing a helmet as an reason to lead
something that I would otherwise back off of. This isn't
"bullshit"; it's just that other potential injuries are enough of
a deterrent. If you think otherwise, you might want to rethink
how you decide what routes are within your abilities.
Mike Yukish
> nob...@nospam.pacbell.net (Bill Zaumen) wrote in message news:<nobody-2003...@adsl-209-233-20-69.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>...
> > In article <mO9m8.115$Xp5...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Will
> > Niccolls" <willni...@SPAMTHIShotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >But once again, I don't belive that the majority of
> > > > helmless people do this calculation.
> > > >
> > > > Erik
> > >
> > > I'm not so sure of that. What I want to know is, who of you takes greater
> > > risks because they are wearing helmets? ....
Just climbing in Seneca's appropriately named drop zone is risky, due to rock fall funneling through. It is a risk I won't take without
a helmet.
I definitely make allowances in the risk/benefit trade for the protective gear on hand, in climbing and in all other activities.
> I don't think risk compensation applies to helmet use, given the
> > discomfort of breaking a leg or getting otherwise mangled.
Think motorcycle riders. Heck, just the thought that at least mom & dad can have an open casket funeral for you is enough to allows some
folks to push their margins further out.
> Where it
> > would apply is for things that improve your performance, such as
> > better shoes: you'll feel more solid and will be able to do harder
> > climbs with the same safety margin as before.
>
> Bull$%@. I've definitely lead some things that I would only lead with
> a helmet on, and I've declined the lead on pitches due to lack of
> helmet.
I'm with you.
Michael Boniwell
> I sometimes avoid wearing a helmet for reasons of vanity.
> There. I said it.
Okay, I'm jumping in a few days late in this thread, but just thought
I'd add my 2 cents. I agree with Dingus. I've found myself wanting to
avoid the helmet when I know someone is taking photos. Why? Vanity.
I'll admit it.
On the other hand I'm very conscious of how vulnerable I feel climbing
without a helmet. I got my head caved in once (unrelated sports injury
from many years ago), and can tell you that the surgery to prise out
the shards of skull from my brain was not pleasant. When climbing I
feel very mortal without the helmet. I generally wear my helmet on
just about every climb outside, especially trad, but also short bolted
stuff and even sometimes when bouldering. I'll more often than not,
also wear one while belaying (rock fall). Hell I'll even put one on
when approaches start getting a little tricky.
I'd say that more of my climbing buddies wear helmets, than those that
don't. Of the ones that don't perhaps the worst offender recently
started to after taking a deck out fall from a decent height. (Cam
ripped). Myself, of all the leader falls I've taken I was always
wearing a helmet, but can't recall ever actually striking my head
during the falls. Ironically, the one time I did fall and more or less
landed head first onto a boulder, I wasn't even climbing, just
descending, fatigued and tired, in failing light on a "walk off". And
yeah, fortunately I was still wearing my helmet. Sometimes the walk
offs are more dangerous than the climbs!
I use a Petzl Ecrin Roc, and find it very comfortable, so much so I
don't even really notice that it's on until I bump my head. I've been
known to forget it's there long enough to walk into a shop with it
still in place. As someone else pointed out it also negates the need
to comb your hair, a bonus several days into a trip.
In summary I generally choose to wear a helmet because the fear
outweighs the vanity.
Michael.
Michael Boniwell
months ago, that is somewhat relevant. Local crag, not far from a big
city. Short single pitch routes. Fixed gear at the top of every line.
Lots of gym climbers out on rock for the first time, lots of happy
faces with new shinny gear. Attractive young people. Couples climbing.
Guided groups. Top ropes. Lots of "hey check it out, someone is
leading", kind of looks. Lots of bolts, labelled routes. Almost no
helmets. You get the picture? We felt a little out of place. I mean,
the track down even had steps concreted in, so you couldn't trip on
your way to the base. I wouldn't have been surprised if someone tried
to sell me a cappuccino.
The number of mistakes being made was amazing. A belayer stood way out
from the rock, with loops of slack on the ground, while his leader
sketched, and shook above, obviously in a panic, trying to sort
through his rack of new gear, and make a placement better than the
ones that had fallen out below.
Anyway, on to the incident in question. On another route, a trad
climb, this dude is halfway up a layback crack when he takes a mighty
whipper, almost landing on his belayer, who is launched off her feet.
She is obviously his girlfriend, and someone who I'd guess was not
familiar with climbing. On the way down his unhelmeted head missed a
ledge the size of a dinner table, by less than an inch – I kid you
not, it was this close. Unbelievably he recomposes himself and sets
off once again, without putting on a helmet and without even putting
more gear into the crux. He pulled the moves and finished the climb,
but my question is, what possessed the man to act so? Bravery or
vanity? He could not possibly have failed to notice the ledge, I mean
it was right in his flight path. Only pure luck and the fact that the
layback had him pitching off at an angle saved him from spilling the
contents of his skull.
Bill Zaumen
mic...@sbss.com.au (Michael Boniwell) wrote:
> Anyway, on to the incident in question. On another route, a trad
> climb, this dude is halfway up a layback crack when he takes a mighty
> whipper, almost landing on his belayer, who is launched off her feet.
> She is obviously his girlfriend, ........
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> On the way down his unhelmeted head missed a
> ledge the size of a dinner table, by less than an inch .......
> ........................... Unbelievably he recomposes himself and sets
> off once again, without putting on a helmet and without even putting
> more gear into the crux. He pulled the moves and finished the climb,
> but my question is, what possessed the man to act so? Bravery or
> vanity?
I've underlined the key phrase. It was obviously a case of hormones
overriding judgement :-). Glad he wasn't hurt. Of course, if he
had hit his ankle on the ledge, it would not have been life threatening,
but it would have hurt like hell and could have set his climbing career
back for quite some time: compound fractures and shattered ankles can
require a long recovery. So I wouldn't consider putting on a helmet as
being enough to go back up and try it with no additional protection.
BTW, I once saw someone take a 15 foot head first fall in the 'Gunks
and stop with his head within a foot of the ground.
- no spam@hotmail.com Irishman
"Michael Boniwell" <mic...@sbss.com.au> wrote in message
>
> I'll more often than not,
One of my regular climbing partners hasn't gotten around to getting a
helmet yet. I do, on occasion have him wear mine while I'm leading.
He's no good to me as a belay with a caved in skull. That's another
angle to the risk evaluation thing. That fact that I was wearing mine
may have saved his bacon once when he got off route and started a "rock
slide".
Irishman
^,,^
> > I'll more often than not,
> > also wear one [helmet] while belaying (rock fall).
Irishman wrote, in part:
> One of my regular climbing partners hasn't gotten around to getting a
> helmet yet. I do, on occasion have him wear mine while I'm leading.
> He's no good to me as a belay with a caved in skull.
amen, my brother. when BA and i (and friends_ had blodgett canyon to
ourselves, the routes were gorgeous, innumerable, a loose as sheet.
hence the best (typically only) helmet went to the 2nd. for they had to
dance around the rockfall. unlike the yosemite heroes, in blodgett you
danced and pranced so as to _not_ follow.
well, at least we cleaned those routes for the californicators and
soulless texans who followed.
~~~~~~~~
listen, i'm an er-md. and i've learned that most everything heals (or
at least can possibly heal) with the massive exception of nerve cells
(recent med press re: myelin sheath rebuilds be damned). and the vast
majority of those cells are in our coconuts. get it? true, a skull cap
fooks with the balance at 5.13+++ but as all of those are overbolted ego
routes they hardly count. and most of us spend most of our time below
that number game, no? a d yeah, helmet hair is oogly and won't get you
on the cover of the mags, but if that's why you climb you won't climb
for long and you'll miss the best of it.
well, bottom line: pray you never visit me at work. i do, though
who/what i pray to remains undefined. wear the skid lid, and increase
your chances of remaining you as long as you have a pulse dramatically.
hell, you can always take it off at an appropriate moment for the big
hair hero shot... you hero...
bwaaa haaa haaa haaa & etc
canis fidelis est,
^,,^ (dogboy, his mark)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If at first you don't succeed, forget skydiving." -Laugeneyer
"I forget to breath sometimes, but so far it hasn't been permanent."
-Gorka
"The truly great climbers are invariably those who insist there are no
truly great climbers." -Rhab Hall, in conversation.