Brake positions
Bob Maccione
bicycles and on the Right on motorcycles ??
I personally move the brakes so they agree with my motorcycle thereby
giving me more confidence although I have to warn other people before
they ride my bike, and I can't really push other peoples bikes.
just a question..
bob
Alan Munn
I bought a used Colnago in the early 80's which had the brakes
'reversed' (so to speak); at the time I was told that it was the
Italian way. This may or may not be true, but since I am ambidextrous,
it didn't seem to make a difference to me. It seems that since the
front brake does most (~70% ?) of the braking one would want the front
brake lever operated by either the strongest hand or the most
sensitive (for control). By this analogy, the front brake is probably
best on the right for the average right handed person, something that
motorcycle manufacturers presumably know. (I assume motorcycle brakes
are hydraulic, thus control is more a factor than strength).
It took a little while to get used to the reversed brakes on the
Colnago, but once I had, I found it fine. A few years later after the
Colnago was stolen, I got a Guerciotti which I had asked to be built
with the levers reversed, but they didn't. As a result I'm back to
the 'standard' way again, being too lazy to take off the tape and
reverse them :-). As I say, to me, it doesn't make much
difference, but if one is strongly right dominant, you might want to
switch your levers and see how you like it.
Alan
Jer/ Eberhard
The front brake on a motorcycle is on the right because the left side is
already used for the clutch. You wouldn't want the clutch on the right
because the twist throttle is already there.
Jer/ Eberhard, (SLASH), HAM = N0FZD | Hewlett-Packard - MS99, 1UP10, 15' East
CAP SAR Pilot, COMM,INST,CFI-GLIDER | 3404 East Harmony Road (303) 229-2861
UUCP:hplabs!hpfcla!jle | Fort Collins, Colorado 80525-9599
ARPA:jle%hpf...@hplabs.HP.COM
John F. Haugh II
>The front brake on a motorcycle is on the right because the left side is
>already used for the clutch. You wouldn't want the clutch on the right
>because the twist throttle is already there.
Which, of course, begs the question - But why is the twist throttle on
the right side and not the left???
--
John F. Haugh II UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 832-8832 Domain: j...@rpp386.cactus.org
Thomas A. Fine
>In article <791...@hpfcdc.HP.COM> j...@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Jer/ Eberhard) writes:
>>The front brake on a motorcycle is on the right because the left side is
>>already used for the clutch. You wouldn't want the clutch on the right
>>because the twist throttle is already there.
>Which, of course, begs the question - But why is the twist throttle on
>the right side and not the left???
1. We have to signal with our left hand, and can't take the hand off the
throttle (unless its REAL sticky or has genuine cruise control). Some (most?)
British bikes are built backwards, for their backwards (to us) roads.
2. We are a right hand dominated civilization.
3. Motorcycle makers are a bunch of drunken idiots who don't realize that
if the throttle were on the left it would be easier to wave to the babes on
the nearest side of the (U.S.) street.
4. Motorcycle makers are a bunch of drunken idiots who don't realize that
if we had a gas PEDAL we could ride with no hands and look way cool.
5. If the throttle was on the left, then my right hand wouldn't be strong
enough to hoist my motorcycle up onto my Sopwith Camel rooftop upright
motorcycle rack.
>John F. Haugh II UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
>Ma Bell: (512) 832-8832 Domain: j...@rpp386.cactus.org
tom
Andrew Fitzhugh
> 1. We have to signal with our left hand,
A few people have said something to this effect, but for cyclists and
motorcyclists, it is perfectly legal and safe to signal with your left or
right hand, simply pointing where you are going to go. There is no
mystical reason why motorists in cars with the steering wheel on the left
have to make all hand signals with the left arm; it's just the only way
to do it.
In fact, it's probably safer to signal right on a bike by just pointing;
making a right-turn signal with the left arm requires that one sits up
straight and remove one's hand far from the bars/brake. Just pointing is
much easier, is seen clearly by following vehicles, and leaves the body in
a more stable position.
As for which side the brakes are on: Geez, there are only two options,
and about the only difference between the two is that one is left and
one is right. I believe the "historical" reasons that people give;
i.e., that there's no real reason.
Andrew "It's not always rude to point" Fitzhugh
HP Laboratories, Printing Technology Department
Jer/ Eberhard
> In article <791...@hpfcdc.HP.COM> j...@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Jer/ Eberhard) writes:
> >The front brake on a motorcycle is on the right because the left side is
> >already used for the clutch. You wouldn't want the clutch on the right
> >because the twist throttle is already there.
> Which, of course, begs the question - But why is the twist throttle on
> the right side and not the left???
If you think about it, you do "gross gross movement" things with your
non-dominant hand and "fine control movement" with your dominant hand.
So, it follows that in a right-handed world (observation, not
prescription), a right-handed would clutch with the left hand and
throttle with the right.
We actually teach this in soaring:
You do "dumb" things with your left hand and "smart" things with your
right hand. Where "dumb" things are those which require little thought
or fine control and "smart" things are those which require more thought
or fine control. Unfortunately, sailplanes are mostly set up for right
handers. The leftys get really short changed.
John F. Haugh II
>If you think about it, you do "gross gross movement" things with your
>non-dominant hand and "fine control movement" with your dominant hand.
>
>So, it follows that in a right-handed world (observation, not
>prescription), a right-handed would clutch with the left hand and
>throttle with the right.
But as any left-handed motorcyclist will tell you [ I'm one, and I'm
telling you right now ;-) ], throttle and front braking are not "fine
movement".
>We actually teach this in soaring:
>
>You do "dumb" things with your left hand and "smart" things with your
>right hand. Where "dumb" things are those which require little thought
>or fine control and "smart" things are those which require more thought
>or fine control. Unfortunately, sailplanes are mostly set up for right
>handers. The leftys get really short changed.
Actually the Romans taught this long before planes were ever invented.
The root for "left" is "sinister". Left has long been considered to
be "evil", despite evidence that even right handed people can learn to
use their left hands with a considerable amount of agility. [ Not
wanting to use the word "dexterity" ... ] How many of you knew that
when the "QWERTY" keyboard was invented a larger number of common keys
were put on the left side of the keyboard to slow typists down? This
failed miserably and instead we were left with a substandard keyboard
layout.
Right-handed people seem to need the advantage. Studies show that as
a population, left-handed people are more creative and score higher
on standard intelligence tests. ;-) There are no rational reasons for
brake lever placement, other than dexter-chauvanism and religious
preference. I've not felt any great compulsion to swap the levers or
pedals on any of the vehicles I've owned. And having all of the real
common keys under my left hand where I can get to them better is a
real nice added bonus!
--
Scott Seligman
>
>> 1. We have to signal with our left hand,
>
> A few people have said something to this effect, but for cyclists and
> motorcyclists, it is perfectly legal and safe to signal with your left or
> right hand, simply pointing where you are going to go.
Not in California (where you live!)
Bicyclists can signal right turns with right hands, but left turns
and stops must be signaled in the standard way. I'm not sure
about motorcyclists, but I don't think they have even this much
freedom.
Scott
Greg Franks
>Which, of course, begs the question - But why is the twist throttle on
>the right side and not the left???
You signal with your left hand (just like on a bike). You also want
to be able to operate the throttle at the same time. Some motorcycles
don't have flashers.
--
Greg Franks (613) 788-5726 Carleton University,
uunet!mitel!sce!greg (uucp) Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K1S 5B6.
gr...@sce.carleton.ca (bitnet) (we're on the internet too. (finally))
Overwhelm them with the small bugs so that they don't see the big ones.
Torsten Lif
This line of discussion has me more than a little confused! What's "the
standard way" if not "pointing where you are going to go"?
In Europe the *only* legal way for a cyclist to indicate a right turn is
to extend his right arm; for a left turn you extend your left arm. Pretty
simple. To stop you raise your left arm (unless you're in England in which
case I presume it would be the right arm :-). Am I reading the above
discussion correctly when I take it to mean that in the US some other scheme
of signals is used? In the interest of my own survival, should I ever get the
opportunity to ride there, I'd like to know what this scheme is!
/Torsten
Torsten Lif (formerly Dahlkvist)
ELLEMTEL Telecommunication Laboratories
P.O. Box 1505, S-125 25 ALVSJO, SWEDEN
Tel: +46 8 727 3788
Patrick Thompson
I don't know about this. But I do know that many cyclocross racers switch
the brakes so that the left lever controls the rear brake. This is so
that when you are dismounting and have both legs on the left side of the
bike, and your right hand is on the top tube or seat -- you can still brake
(hard) with your left hand without endo-ing.
Of course if you dismount to the right hand side of the bike this is not a
problem.
- Pat
=====================================================================
Patrick Thompson {amdahl,hplabs,ames}!ntmtv!scoter
Los Gatos, California
work: 415-940-2597
home: 408-354-9615
=====================================================================
Torsten Lif
> In (most areas) of North America, it is common to use the left arm to
>signal everything. To signal left, you throw your left arm straight out,
>to signal stop you put your left arm out and the forearm straight down,
>and to signal right, you put your left arm out and your forearm straight
>up.
In article <26...@erix.ericsson.se> I wrote:
>>
>>In Europe the *only* legal way for a cyclist to indicate a right turn is
>>to extend his right arm; for a left turn you extend your left arm. Pretty
>>simple. To stop you raise your left arm (unless you're in England in which
>>case I presume it would be the right arm :-). Am I reading the above
>>discussion correctly when I take it to mean that in the US some other scheme
>>of signals is used? In the interest of my own survival, should I ever get the
>>opportunity to ride there, I'd like to know what this scheme is!
Oh Boy! We have a neat little conflict here!!!
The European signal for "I'm stopping" is American for "Turning right".
I don't suppose it will lead to any major troubles, but anybody intent on a
trans-atlantic visit should be aware of the differences.
Are there other such differences that an innocent visitor should think of?
Scott Nicol
>
>In Europe the *only* legal way for a cyclist to indicate a right turn is
>to extend his right arm; for a left turn you extend your left arm. Pretty
>simple. To stop you raise your left arm (unless you're in England in which
>case I presume it would be the right arm :-). Am I reading the above
>discussion correctly when I take it to mean that in the US some other scheme
>of signals is used? In the interest of my own survival, should I ever get the
>opportunity to ride there, I'd like to know what this scheme is!
In (most areas) of North America, it is common to use the left arm to
signal everything. To signal left, you throw your left arm straight out,
to signal stop you put your left arm out and the forearm straight down,
and to signal right, you put your left arm out and your forearm straight
up.
I think it is safer, since the drivers (ugh!!) are (usually) on your left
hand side, so it is easier for them to see signals with the left arm.
Also, it was not until after the second world war that cars (ugh!) here
commonly had signal lights (I know a person who owns a 1942 buick limo,
and the original invoice clearly shows that the signal lights were an
extra cost option).
>
>/Torsten
>
> Torsten Lif (formerly Dahlkvist)
> ELLEMTEL Telecommunication Laboratories
> P.O. Box 1505, S-125 25 ALVSJO, SWEDEN
> Tel: +46 8 727 3788
- Scott
Email: sbn...@rose.waterloo.edu -or- ...!uunet!watmath!rose!sbnicol
SlowMail: 546 FallingBrook Dr., Waterloo, Ont., Canada, N2L 4N4.
Phone: (519) 725-1980
Scott Nicol
>
>The European signal for "I'm stopping" is American for "Turning right".
>
>I don't suppose it will lead to any major troubles, but anybody intent on a
>trans-atlantic visit should be aware of the differences.
This is great! I could go ride with a club in Europe, stay near the
front of the pack, and when the ride leader (or whoever is at the front)
signals a right turn, I'll just give my right turn signal, and instantly
I'll be in a breakaway group.
>
>Are there other such differences that an innocent visitor should think of?
Some provinces (and states too, I imagine) allow right turns on a red
light, and some don't. Being originally from a "border" town (Ottawa),
I know how vigilant (Quebec) cops can be nailing people who forget
what side of the river they're driving on and make a right on a red.
>
>/Torsten
>
> Torsten Lif (formerly Dahlkvist)
> ELLEMTEL Telecommunication Laboratories
> P.O. Box 1505, S-125 25 ALVSJO, SWEDEN
> Tel: +46 8 727 3788
- Scott
Alayne McGregor
... lots of included stuff about standard North American hand signals ...
> This line of discussion has me more than a little confused! What's "the
> standard way" if not "pointing where you are going to go"?
>
> In Europe the *only* legal way for a cyclist to indicate a right turn is
> to extend his right arm; for a left turn you extend your left arm. Pretty
> simple. To stop you raise your left arm (unless you're in England in which
> case I presume it would be the right arm :-). Am I reading the above
> discussion correctly when I take it to mean that in the US some other scheme
> of signals is used? In the interest of my own survival, should I ever get the
> opportunity to ride there, I'd like to know what this scheme is!
In North America, according to the standard traffic code, the hand signals
are: extend left arm fully = left turn
extend left arm, making a 90-degree bend at the elbow, so that your
hand points skyward = right turn
point left arm at the ground, pointing slightly backwards = slowing
or stopping
These signals are all made with the left arm because that's the only arm a
car driver can stick outside an automobile.
Just *this spring*, the Ontario (Canada) Highway Traffic Act was amended to
allow cyclists to signal right turns by fully extending their right arms.
In many jurisdictions, this still isn't legal, though it's probably safer
and many cyclists do it.
Alayne McGregor
ala...@e.gandalf.ca
{dciem!nrcaer,dgbt}!gandalf!alayne
Archer Sully
>In article <26...@erix.ericsson.se>, eua...@euas17c10.ericsson.se (Torsten Lif) writes:
> ... lots of included stuff about standard North American hand signals ...
>> This line of discussion has me more than a little confused! What's "the
>> standard way" if not "pointing where you are going to go"?
>>
>> In Europe the *only* legal way for a cyclist to indicate a right turn is
>> to extend his right arm; for a left turn you extend your left arm. Pretty
>> simple. To stop you raise your left arm (unless you're in England in which
>> case I presume it would be the right arm :-). Am I reading the above
>> discussion correctly when I take it to mean that in the US some other scheme
>> of signals is used? In the interest of my own survival, should I ever get the
>> opportunity to ride there, I'd like to know what this scheme is!
>In North America, according to the standard traffic code, the hand signals
>are: extend left arm fully = left turn
> extend left arm, making a 90-degree bend at the elbow, so that your
> hand points skyward = right turn
> point left arm at the ground, pointing slightly backwards = slowing
> or stopping
I believe that bicyclists may use the right arm pointing technique instead
of the left arm up for right turns.
It doesn't matter anyway: no American drivers know what hand signals are.
Archer Sully | I'm 27 years old. That's 54 in Nerd Years
(arc...@esd.sgi.com) | -- Keith Rienzi
Mark A. Matthews
we find the Vehicle Code has this to say about hand signals:
Div.11
22111. All required signals given by hand and arm shall be given from the
left side of a vehicle in the following manner:
(a) Left turn - hand and arm extended horizontally beyond the side of the
vehicle.
(b) Right turn - hand and arm extended upward beyond the side of the
vehicle, except that a bicyclist may extend the right hand and arm
horizontally to the right side of the bicycle.
(c) Stop or sudden decrease in speed signal - hand and arm extended
downward beyond the side of the vehicle.
[Amended Ch. 153, Stats. 1963. Effective September 20, 1963.]
[Amended Ch. 751, Stats. 1976. Effective January 1, 1977.]
--
-Mark (m...@gvgspd.GVG.TEK.COM -or- ..!tektronix!gvgpsa!gvgspd!mam)
Steve LaSala
>I can't comment on the rules for the rest of the world, but for California
>we find the Vehicle Code has this to say about hand signals:
>
>downward beyond the side of the vehicle.
Except, of course, that I'm not about to remove my hands from the
brake levers during a "sudden decrease in speed". Not that any car drivers
would know what the hell the signal meant in the first place. As a kid I
learned the hand signals and tried to signal a right turn, but everyone
thought I was waving at them. Simply pointing in the direction you want to go
is much less ambiguous and hence safer.
Alex Matthews
>In article <10...@gvgspd.GVG.TEK.COM> m...@gvgspd.GVG.TEK.COM (Mark A. Matthews) writes:
>> (c) Stop or sudden decrease in speed signal - hand and arm extended
>>downward beyond the side of the vehicle.
>
> in the first place.
They don't have to learn it from a book. When executed with appropriate
body language it can convey lots of easily understood meaning. I use it
in situations on bike or motorcycle when I wish to tell the driver behind
"It's not safe to pass and you're following too closely. Please drop back."
Usually the request is granted, and if they stay cool behind me I have
cured someone (temporarily) of a tailgating habit; if not, I get out of
their way ASAP. It has never elicited a dangerous response, because I
only use it when they were being dangerous in the first place.
Picture in your mind the gesture as you would like to see it done to
you, and try it. It is difficult to capture the elan of a Harley
rider when you're on a Pinarello or Stumpjumper, but the important
thing to project is professionalism and ease with the situation.
This advice void in the Boston area.
Alex "Ctrl-c? What ctrl-c?" Matthews | "...if you ride too good a horse
matt...@jila.bitnet | you will not take the straight
DoD #0010 '84 GS550ES, '81 GS450L | road to town."
'89 Trek 1200, '75 Nishiki Custom Sport | - Carl Sandberg