How to Plot
Elizabeth Shack
Because I am insane, I started a new novel on Monday, and I thought
that since I hate revision, I would try to make the first draft less
awful. "Less awful" in this case means that the first draft should
actually contain the entire plot.
I looked at various saved posts for advice, but I'm not sure I've
found the one true way. <g> Previous advice and my own ideas
include:
1. Figure out the characters and the world first - but I can't outline
the sequels to my WiR either, and I certainly have the characters and
the world for that. (I have notes on about 1/8 of the number of
scenes I expect to have for the two books.)
2. Lots of ways to write down plot bits: the Post-it Note method, or
spreadsheets. But this doesn't help unless there are things to write
down.
3. Decision tree: each time a character makes a decision, figure out
the consequences of all the options. Again, I tried this with the
sequels and it didn't seem to help much - it became very complicated
very quickly.
4. Work backwards from the end: There are at least three possible
endings and I don't really like any of them. But this seems to have
at least some possibilities. (If the ending is that K & D decide H is
in the right, then they must have met him at least once.)
4a. On a similar note, since the book contains a prophecy which K & D
are trying to prevent from coming true, if the prophecy is detailed
enough ("the sky will darken and the ground will shake") I can put
that in.
5. Synopsis or mini-synopses: I seem not to be able to figure things
out without writing. But maybe I can trick myself by writing little
bits about what the characters want and who they disagree with, ideas
will magically appear. Writing "Davin also must deal with people on
his own side who do not think he is ready to be king, or want the
throne for themselves" tells me that there must be scenes with D and
people who don't want him to be king. And doing little synopses for
the antagonists too. Or write the whole story in 2000 words and then
expand - tried that once with a novel that I gave up on.
6. Just make stuff up. "Davin decides that antagonistcouncillor must
be beheaded." "Kya sneaks out for a secret tryst with H." "Giant
eagles lay eggs in the courtyard." This just seems to work even less
well for me than anything else - I can make up whatever I want, but
there's no guarantee that it's *right*. On the other hand, I can make
up tons of stuff and see what seems to stick. Hm.
7. All of the above. :) This is the method currently in use. The
WiR must take priority, so I am sort of doing a "whatever I feel like
now" approach to the planning and first draft. But eventually I want
to be able to write the first draft and know that I'm not leaving
things out.
Anything else I can try or suggestions for references? I'm heading to
the library Monday anyway to look up typical EFP prophecies.
Elizabeth
--
Elizabeth Shack eas...@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~eashack
Busy. Got coffee?
Pat Bowne
"Elizabeth Shack" <eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net> wrote
> This is *not* a whine about how much I hate revision.
>
> Because I am insane, I started a new novel on Monday, and I thought
> that since I hate revision, I would try to make the first draft less
> awful. "Less awful" in this case means that the first draft should
> actually contain the entire plot.
>
> I looked at various saved posts for advice, but I'm not sure I've
> found the one true way. <list snipped>
> Anything else I can try or suggestions for references?
What I usually do is figure out who the characters are and what problem each
one of them has, and what I want them to have figured out at the end of the
novel. That doesn't dictate the plot, but it gives me a set of constraints
within which to make stuff up as I go along.
Good luck!
Pat
Victory Crayne
wrote:
Interesting. That is pretty much the method I use too. I start with
characters, add their personality attributes, then figure out what
innner conflicts they will have, then the conflicts between the main
characters.
Then I lay out a rough outline of the plot that might follow, being
careful to identify the key turning points for the protagonist.
Another pass through for the subplots and I have my rough plot
outline.
Of course, the novel may take a few twists from that as it unfolds,
but at least this method ensures that the reader will be presented
with complex characters in conflicts. I try to not be too specific on
how all the subplots will be resolved. I leave that up to my Muse to
figure out. I don't want her to be bored!
- Victory Nancy Crayne
David Friedman
in my head until I have a plot. During that period there may be
particular scenes that come to me and get written out--I have some for
the third Harald book that I think work, and one for the second that
might.
But mostly I'm just lying in bed imagining the situation after the end
of the first book from the standpoint of the Emperor, back home in the
Western Capital--two functional legions he knows are loyal, eight more,
without weapons or equipment, scattered over the western half of the
Empire waiting for him to pay the ransom so they can have their officers
back and wondering how they are going to feed themselves. The Second
Prince with four legions (minus losses from his attempt to take on
Harald), a brilliant commander loyal to him, popular suppport in the
west end of the Empire. That's the son the Emperor wants to succeed
him--but not just yet
Then I think about the situation from the standpoint of Aristos, the son
of the First Prince--The First Prince is currently under polite house
arrest--sitting in the Eastern Capital trying to put together
information about the Emperor's defeat and the current situation in
order to decide whether his faction should make a try for the
throne--also trying to decide what to do about the fact that his father
is insufficiently ambitious for Aristos' taste.
Then I think about it from the standpoint of Asbjorn, Harald's grandson,
currently the protagonist of the book--although he may end up sharing
that honor with Aristos and Kiron, the son of the Second Prince. First
step is to learn Balkhani, because the Imperial defeat is going to
restart the Balkhani revolt, so Balkhan is obviously where the
interesting stuff is going to be happening next. There are wounded
Balkhani prisoners being held in the castle commanded by his friend
Hen's father. Surely they can use the help of a friendly young
man--Asbjorn is fifteen--interested in learning all about the Land of
Heroes.
Then ... .
R. L.
(Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
/snip/
>4. Work backwards from the end: There are at least three possible
>endings and I don't really like any of them. But this seems to have
>at least some possibilities. (If the ending is that K & D decide H is
>in the right, then they must have met him at least once.)
Working backwards from the climax usually works for me in the thirty
fairy tales I've finished so far, but they're all under 8,000 words.
I'm trying it now on something longer and it seems to be working, but
early to tell.
Usually I start with the climax, then some other major bits, and then
fill in before and between, and do the very beginning and ending last.
>4a. On a similar note, since the book contains a prophecy which K & D
>are trying to prevent from coming true, if the prophecy is detailed
>enough ("the sky will darken and the ground will shake") I can put
>that in.
A lot of mileage can be got out of things like that.
>5. Synopsis or mini-synopses: I seem not to be able to figure things
>out without writing. But maybe I can trick myself by writing little
>bits about what the characters want and who they disagree with, ideas
>will magically appear.
Just about any time I write notes about any element, ideas magically
appear, often usable. It happens even if I just write questions.
/snip/
>7. All of the above. :) This is the method currently in use. The
>WiR must take priority, so I am sort of doing a "whatever I feel like
>now" approach to the planning and first draft. But eventually I want
>to be able to write the first draft and know that I'm not leaving
>things out.
I recently ran across some old posts where someone said she had a lot
of scenes like tinsel with no tree to hang them on. I usually end up
with tree problems too. Here's something promising I just read in a
book by Christopher Keane about screenplay writing. What he calls
'plot' and 'subplot' kind of matches up with my 'tree' and 'tinsel'.
"Plot drives the action. Subplot carries the theme." He gives examples
of 'plot' as a detective trying to save a witness from corrupt cops,
and the actual buliding of the ballfield in "Field of Dreams". The
relationship changes that accompany this he calls 'subplot'. "If you
ask almost any writer what his story's about, he will
tell you about the subplot, usually having to do with the theme of
love[....] The subplot aims at what films are really about --
relationships."
Even so, he recommends disentangling 'plot' from 'subplot' and for a
film-script, focusing on the 'plot'. I don't know about this in films
or in general, but it's helping me in plotting at the moment.
I started with a list of what he'd call 'plot' events (retelling
"Marya Morevna") such as "Ivan frees Villian",
"Ivan rescues MM from castle", "Brothers rescue Ivan from river", etc.
In a traditional folk tale these events are pretty clear and
uncluttered. I'm making sure each one gets at least one scene of its
own; a rescue from castle seems to need several scenes (arrive at
castle, get inside, locate prisoner, free her from cell or chains, get
her outside),
At this stage I'm not planning any scenes that don't feed pretty
closely into one of these events. The furthest out I've got is a minor
character maid in the brothers' library who sees Ivan floating down
the river and alerts rescuers, afer being invited into a kiind of
resistance organization of minor characters who will help the hero in
later events on the list. I figure once I've got all the main events
covered, then if there's more room I can add some more marginal
scenes.
Nicky Browne
> > This is *not* a whine about how much I hate revision.
> >
> > Because I am insane, I started a new novel on Monday, and I thought
> > that since I hate revision, I would try to make the first draft less
> > awful. "Less awful" in this case means that the first draft should
> > actually contain the entire plot.
> >
> > I looked at various saved posts for advice, but I'm not sure I've
> > found the one true way. <list snipped>
> > Anything else I can try or suggestions for references?
>
to happen on the way there to make the story interesting.I have
several goes at this and I always plot on a circular clock face so
that I can make connections easily and decide whether to have a plot
with several peaks and troughs, a steady building to a climax or
whatever.I don't find it particularly easy because you have to
envisage all the main turning points of the story- a fast forward
before you have any drama to forward. I usually have my main
characters before this and what they do in the plot outline changes
who they are and vice versa.
If there is more than one main plot line I use a different colour ink
for those sections but again work out where they fit within the main
narrative. If the story involves more than one viewpoint I rough out
which voice/story section will appear where, so that I can make sure
the distribution of viewpoints is balanced throughout.( this is not a
v technical process.)
I don't always stick to my plan, but knowing broadly where I'm going
enables me to drop hints or plant red herrings as I'm going along. If
I have a new idea and want to change something I've already written I
am able to picture where information needs to come more easily because
I have an overview from the beginning.
I don't know how else to plot but to create this bare bones of who
will do what and where. It doesn't restrict me from kicking over the
traces when I'm writing at all, and sometimes I abandon the plan quite
early and may invert or mix up some to the ideas as I go along. My
picture of the plot gives me something to follow and something to
struggle against.
I have a feeling this isn't going to help you much if you don't
imagine the bones of the narrative without the flesh. Sorry if this
isn't useful.
Nicky
Chris Johnson
eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net (Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
> 1. Figure out the characters and the world first - but I can't outline
> the sequels to my WiR either, and I certainly have the characters and
> the world for that. (I have notes on about 1/8 of the number of
> scenes I expect to have for the two books.)
> endings and I don't really like any of them. But this seems to have
> at least some possibilities. (If the ending is that K & D decide H is
> in the right, then they must have met him at least once.)
These sum up what works for me, to the extent that anything does. I
suppose it must work, as plot doesn't tend to daunt me, and I've had
some comments about how my plotting tends to build with distressing
force. I attribute that to not really understanding the concept of
'multiple waves of plot' and doing everything as single, relentless
buildings to a climax without any breathing space :)
I begin with characters and the world- usually with a pretty good
understanding of them, though sometimes I've been extremely surprised at
what transpired between thinking and writing.
Then, I have to have an ending that I really, really like. It might
be a totally expected ending ('Aquarius', which I just finished) or a
twisty, astonishing ending ('Kings of Rainmoor') but the flow and theme
of it will sum up what I'm trying to do with the book (or story), and
I'll have very specific ideas about what needs to happen.
Then, all through the middle, I'm either furthering the story towards
the ending, or throwing in something that complicates matters even more.
However, it may only complicate things for the characters- it can't be
allowed to complicate the intent of the story. The reader must still
have a simple and understandable direction that they want the story to
go in- make roadblocks for the characters, but don't hand the reader
contradictory intentions.
Put it all together, allow to simmer. Build the tension and allow it
to simmer more. Make the desired ending even more important and add some
more tension. If things get too grim, entice the characters with
something to keep them going. Build everything up to a frenzied climax,
and then have it unfold in exactly the way you originally planned,
fulfilling your requirements as closely as you possibly can.
When it works, it's great. It gets pretty confining at times,
especially towards the end of a book/story, but at the same time, when
you're finally on the home stretch and know exactly how things must
unfold, it's an absolute blast. If you like the ending, and you set it
up and built it up well, and you go into the home stretch writing
tersely and remembering everything you need to do, it's possible to end
up with a lovely gemlike clarity that practically writes itself.
Chris Johnson
Charlie Allery
Elizabeth Shack wrote in message <3e73db35...@news.earthlink.net>...
>This is *not* a whine about how much I hate revision.
>
>Because I am insane, I started a new novel on Monday, and I thought
>that since I hate revision, I would try to make the first draft less
>awful. "Less awful" in this case means that the first draft should
>actually contain the entire plot.
>
>I looked at various saved posts for advice, but I'm not sure I've
>found the one true way. <g> Previous advice and my own ideas
>include:
>
>1. Figure out the characters and the world first - but I can't outline
>the sequels to my WiR either, and I certainly have the characters and
>the world for that. (I have notes on about 1/8 of the number of
>scenes I expect to have for the two books.)
Yup, characters come first with me, world kind of builds itself out of the
details that appear as I write.
>2. Lots of ways to write down plot bits: the Post-it Note method, or
>spreadsheets. But this doesn't help unless there are things to write
>down.
Just a basic main plot-line which I worked out in my head and is simple
enough that I can put it down basically in a document.
>3. Decision tree: each time a character makes a decision, figure out
>the consequences of all the options. Again, I tried this with the
>sequels and it didn't seem to help much - it became very complicated
>very quickly.
I do this scene by scene and in my head. As I write a scene in detail, I
consider consequences and how they might fit into the overall plan. If it
seems to be diverging and I can't see how to bring it back, I worry about it
then before I write the next scene and amend either the scene or the overall
plot.
>4. Work backwards from the end: There are at least three possible
>endings and I don't really like any of them. But this seems to have
>at least some possibilities. (If the ending is that K & D decide H is
>in the right, then they must have met him at least once.)
Not so much as working forwards. I suppose I worked backwards in outline
plot, from resolution to where I was, but in detail I'm just going forwards.
E.g. I didn't know I was going to be involving religion until the characters
got back into the city through a secret passage that leads into the Abbey
from a chapel in the outer city walls.
>4a. On a similar note, since the book contains a prophecy which K & D
>are trying to prevent from coming true, if the prophecy is detailed
>enough ("the sky will darken and the ground will shake") I can put
>that in.
>
>5. Synopsis or mini-synopses: I seem not to be able to figure things
>out without writing. But maybe I can trick myself by writing little
>bits about what the characters want and who they disagree with, ideas
>will magically appear. Writing "Davin also must deal with people on
>his own side who do not think he is ready to be king, or want the
>throne for themselves" tells me that there must be scenes with D and
>people who don't want him to be king. And doing little synopses for
>the antagonists too. Or write the whole story in 2000 words and then
>expand - tried that once with a novel that I gave up on.
>
You might surprise yourself by what comes out as you write the detail. If
I'm stuck, then I start plotting the next few scenes in detail and soon find
myself writing down snippets of conversation and before I know it am writing
actual scenes again.
>6. Just make stuff up. "Davin decides that antagonistcouncillor must
>be beheaded." "Kya sneaks out for a secret tryst with H." "Giant
>eagles lay eggs in the courtyard." This just seems to work even less
>well for me than anything else - I can make up whatever I want, but
>there's no guarantee that it's *right*. On the other hand, I can make
>up tons of stuff and see what seems to stick. Hm.
I haven't made stuff up randomly, but stuff certainly seems to crop up that
I didn't know I was going to put in. :-)
>7. All of the above. :) This is the method currently in use. The
>WiR must take priority, so I am sort of doing a "whatever I feel like
>now" approach to the planning and first draft. But eventually I want
>to be able to write the first draft and know that I'm not leaving
>things out.
I'm happy enough that my plotting ahead of the next half-dozen or so scenes
before I write them ensures that nothing's being left out.
>Anything else I can try or suggestions for references? I'm heading to
>the library Monday anyway to look up typical EFP prophecies.
>
My next planned novel (SF not F) is so far just a protag with known personal
background issues. I know that I'm going to have to send her on a diplomatic
mission for which she is specifically suited and that the crisis and
resolution is going to have to revolve around these issues and how she comes
to terms with them. I'm still looking for the main plot, but am just letting
it ferment at the moment. Something will occur eventually :-)
Charlie
Erol K. Bayburt
>This is *not* a whine about how much I hate revision.
>
>Because I am insane, I started a new novel on Monday, and I thought
>that since I hate revision, I would try to make the first draft less
>awful. "Less awful" in this case means that the first draft should
>actually contain the entire plot.
It sounds to me like a lot of the work I do for my first drafts is work you do
in your revisions. So there's a danger that attempting to create a less aweful
first draft will cause you to hate first drafts as much as you now hate
revisions. :-(
>
>I looked at various saved posts for advice, but I'm not sure I've
>found the one true way. <g> Previous advice and my own ideas
>include:
[snipped]
>
>Anything else I can try or suggestions for references? I'm heading to
>the library Monday anyway to look up typical EFP prophecies.
For what it's worth, my method is to start at the beginning and grind through
to the end. Slowly. I start with a few very brief notes on events later in the
story, (e.g. "John Smith and his companion get jumped in a lonely spot by a
bunch of black-painted ninja-arbi.") so that I have something to write toward.
Then I slowly write in that direction. As I do so, I make more brief notes
about things that *might* happen (or sometimes about potential expansions on or
changes in the initial benchmarks). I have to put these notes to myself in
terms of "maybe such and such" rather than "such and such occurs" to keep from
coming to a complete halt, but if I don't make them at all, I also come to a
complete halt. By striking a path between the two, I can grind forward. Slowly.
Did I mention how slow it is?
After a couple of years of this, I'll have a first draft of 100k words, more or
less. This first draft will be a turd, but at least it will be a whole turd -
an entire plot with no brackets of [stuff happens here], no placeholders, and
no gaps. Or at least not any intentional gaps.
Then I revise. That's much faster than the initial draft, but still slower than
I like. Especially since one of the things I want to revise for is a proper
sense of pacing.
--
Erol K. Bayburt
Ero...@aol.com
Brian D. Fernald
eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net said...
> This is *not* a whine about how much I hate revision.
>
> Because I am insane, I started a new novel on Monday, and I thought
> that since I hate revision, I would try to make the first draft less
> awful. "Less awful" in this case means that the first draft should
> actually contain the entire plot.
>
> I looked at various saved posts for advice, but I'm not sure I've
> found the one true way. <g> Previous advice and my own ideas
> include:
> 5. Synopsis or mini-synopses: I seem not to be able to figure things
> out without writing. But maybe I can trick myself by writing little
> bits about what the characters want and who they disagree with, ideas
> will magically appear. Writing "Davin also must deal with people on
> his own side who do not think he is ready to be king, or want the
> throne for themselves" tells me that there must be scenes with D and
> people who don't want him to be king. And doing little synopses for
> the antagonists too. Or write the whole story in 2000 words and then
> expand - tried that once with a novel that I gave up on.
>
This is how I am working now, from Synopsis (actually several
iterations of a synopsis), to Outline, and then to the first draft.
> 6. Just make stuff up. "Davin decides that antagonistcouncillor must
> be beheaded." "Kya sneaks out for a secret tryst with H." "Giant
> eagles lay eggs in the courtyard." This just seems to work even less
> well for me than anything else - I can make up whatever I want, but
> there's no guarantee that it's *right*. On the other hand, I can make
> up tons of stuff and see what seems to stick. Hm.
This is how I used to work, but I've been finding so many problems that
I lose all momentuem in the story by the seventh draft.
> Anything else I can try or suggestions for references? I'm heading to
> the library Monday anyway to look up typical EFP prophecies.
The latest process that I use is this.
1. Take a sheet of paper and brainstorm the big ticket plot points.
Note only as much detail as comes immediately to mind. Primarily
establish location, character, action, and time of day.
Go as far with the brainstorm as you can. Skip parts if you need to.
2. From the big ticket brainstorm, write a short synopsis, filling in
more details, and noting the many things that you need to know before
starting the draft.
3. Build an outline from the short synopsis. Begin filling in the
details. If there is a house in the scene, what color is it?
4. From the detailed outline, write a longer synopsis. This gives me a
structured way to hold the whole story in my head.
5. Write the first draft.
I've cut at least three drafts out of my normal write-revise-write-
rewrite-revise-rerewrite process, by taking that new approach.
--
BDF.
FSOBN.
R. L.
Browne) wrote:
/snip/
>I think I use the 'getting to the end' method and work out what has
>to happen on the way there to make the story interesting.I have
>several goes at this and I always plot on a circular clock face so
>that I can make connections easily and decide whether to have a plot
>with several peaks and troughs, a steady building to a climax or
>whatever.
What do you mean about a clock face?
/snip/
>I don't know how else to plot but to create this bare bones of who
>will do what and where. /snip/ My picture of the plot gives me something to follow and something to
>struggle against.
That's what I'm trying now, and really enjoying it.
R.L.
--
The pattern of the thing precedes the thing. I fill in the gap of the
crossword at any spot I happen to choose.
-- attr. to Vladimir Nobokov
Elizabeth Shack
<zzzm...@zzsoniczzz.zznetsss> wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 03:01:08 GMT, eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net
>(Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
>>7. All of the above. :) This is the method currently in use. The
>>WiR must take priority, so I am sort of doing a "whatever I feel like
>>now" approach to the planning and first draft. But eventually I want
>>to be able to write the first draft and know that I'm not leaving
>>things out.
>
>I recently ran across some old posts where someone said she had a lot
>of scenes like tinsel with no tree to hang them on.
That was me. That's what I'm trying to avoid.
>Even so, he recommends disentangling 'plot' from 'subplot' and for a
>film-script, focusing on the 'plot'. I don't know about this in films
>or in general, but it's helping me in plotting at the moment.
I do definitely need to focus on the main plot rather than the
subplots. I've been mulling over these responses all day when I
should be doing other work, and the answer seems to be - know what the
antagonists are doing.
In the WiR, I knew little more than the protagonists about what the
other side(s) were up to. I knew the general outline but not the
details of their plans. So I tended to not have scenes that required
knowing those details, and those are generally the scenes that I'm
having to put in now.
Elizabeth Shack
>eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net (Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
>>Because I am insane, I started a new novel on Monday, and I thought
>>that since I hate revision, I would try to make the first draft less
>>awful. "Less awful" in this case means that the first draft should
>>actually contain the entire plot.
>
>It sounds to me like a lot of the work I do for my first drafts is work you do
>in your revisions. So there's a danger that attempting to create a less aweful
>first draft will cause you to hate first drafts as much as you now hate
>revisions. :-(
Or maybe it'll balance out and on a scale where 1 is "utter hell" and
5 is "way fun", the first draft will drop from 4 to 3 and the rewrite
will go from 1 to 2.
>For what it's worth, my method is to start at the beginning and grind through
>to the end. Slowly. I start with a few very brief notes on events later in the
>story, (e.g. "John Smith and his companion get jumped in a lonely spot by a
>bunch of black-painted ninja-arbi.") so that I have something to write toward.
>Then I slowly write in that direction. As I do so, I make more brief notes
>about things that *might* happen (or sometimes about potential expansions on or
>changes in the initial benchmarks).
That's what I did with the WiR. Seems it took me less time than you
(around 1.5 yrs, where 6 months of that was being stuck because I
didn't know I'd reached the beginning of the end and had to start
winding things up), but ...
>Then I revise. That's much faster than the initial draft, but still slower than
>I like. Especially since one of the things I want to revise for is a proper
>sense of pacing.
... the rewrite is nearly two years old (there's some overlap between
the two) and I'm still working on the third quarter. And all I've
worried about is the plot. Not even the pacing.
Elizabeth Shack
<bfer...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> 6. Just make stuff up. "Davin decides that antagonistcouncillor must
>> be beheaded." "Kya sneaks out for a secret tryst with H." "Giant
>> eagles lay eggs in the courtyard." This just seems to work even less
>> well for me than anything else - I can make up whatever I want, but
>> there's no guarantee that it's *right*. On the other hand, I can make
>> up tons of stuff and see what seems to stick. Hm.
>
>This is how I used to work, but I've been finding so many problems that
>I lose all momentuem in the story by the seventh draft.
What sorts of problems? (Seven? eek.)
>The latest process that I use is this.
>
>1. Take a sheet of paper and brainstorm the big ticket plot points.
>Note only as much detail as comes immediately to mind. Primarily
>establish location, character, action, and time of day.
>
>Go as far with the brainstorm as you can. Skip parts if you need to.
>
>2. From the big ticket brainstorm, write a short synopsis, filling in
>more details, and noting the many things that you need to know before
>starting the draft.
>
>3. Build an outline from the short synopsis. Begin filling in the
>details. If there is a house in the scene, what color is it?
>
>4. From the detailed outline, write a longer synopsis. This gives me a
>structured way to hold the whole story in my head.
>
>5. Write the first draft.
This sounds like it might work for me, if I can do it.
I am not sure I can brainstorm enough scenes to write a synopsis,
though. I'm working on it - the key seems to be including what the
two groups of bad guys are up to - but I'm not sure it will give me
enough detail about enough scenes. Maybe. They get much less
detailed the further out they are.
Or maybe as I write the 1st draft I can try to keep expanding the rest
of the outline, making sure the plot is there. If I'm watching it
maybe it can't sneak away.
That's a lot of maybes.
I'd really like to have a paint-by-numbers outline before I write any
more of the first draft.
R. L.
(Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 07:49:19 GMT, R. L.
><zzzm...@zzsoniczzz.zznetsss> wrote:
/snip/
>>I recently ran across some old posts where someone said she had a lot
>>of scenes like tinsel with no tree to hang them on.
>
>That was me. That's what I'm trying to avoid.
It's a good description of the problems I've had on previous attempts.
This time I'm doing the tree first: just bare trunk.
/snip/
>I do definitely need to focus on the main plot rather than the
>subplots. I've been mulling over these responses all day when I
>should be doing other work, and the answer seems to be - know what the
>antagonists are doing.
>
>In the WiR, I knew little more than the protagonists about what the
>other side(s) were up to. I knew the general outline but not the
>details of their plans. So I tended to not have scenes that required
>knowing those details, and those are generally the scenes that I'm
>having to put in now.
This kind of fits my experience too. I've got two books with enough
wordage each, but can't tie them up and finish them becasue I don't
know what the villians are really up to. I have a lot of scenes/chunks
but they don't fit together, too many gaps.
Instead of continuing to work on a messed up book, I put it aside and
start fresh on a new one. When I finally learn enough, then I can go
back and finish the old ones.
This time I started with a plot without much mystery. It doesn't
really matter why Koschev kidnapped Marya Morevna. I'm practicing
with something simple before trying any more mysteries.
Elizabeth Shack
<zzzm...@zzsoniczzz.zznetsss> wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 23:56:03 GMT, eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net
>(Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
>
>>In the WiR, I knew little more than the protagonists about what the
>>other side(s) were up to. I knew the general outline but not the
>>details of their plans. So I tended to not have scenes that required
>>knowing those details, and those are generally the scenes that I'm
>>having to put in now.
>
>This kind of fits my experience too. I've got two books with enough
>wordage each, but can't tie them up and finish them becasue I don't
>know what the villians are really up to. I have a lot of scenes/chunks
>but they don't fit together, too many gaps.
<g> Mine didn't leave gaps - I'm having to wedge them in. The draft
followed a nice linear plot that made perfect sense, and then I'd
realize that three chapters ago I needed such and such a scene, and
I'd make a note on the outline to add it. I'm doing chapter 12 now,
and it's seven scenes, each of which needs to at least double in
content.
>Instead of continuing to work on a messed up book, I put it aside and
>start fresh on a new one. When I finally learn enough, then I can go
>back and finish the old ones.
I did finish the book, and I'll finish the second draft and the
third, but it's really painful and slow. Don't want to do it that way
again.
>This time I started with a plot without much mystery. It doesn't
>really matter why Koschev kidnapped Marya Morevna. I'm practicing
>with something simple before trying any more mysteries.
Yep. This new thing is simpler. Only four main characters, two sets
of antagonists, and the good guys know who the bad guys are. Quite
refreshing.
I have a term paper due tomorrow, so I've been working on the outline
of this new book, and I think the thing that will make it easier is
that it's actually about the trunk rather than the tinsel. With the
first book, I was more interested in the subplots than in the main
plot - all of the seed-scenes were in the subplots.
Hm. I just peered at the outline I have so far - it's sort of a
two-trunked tree and I have a large part of one trunk, a teeny bit of
the other trunk and some tinsel. Better work on that second trunk.
David Friedman
eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net (Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
> In the WiR, I knew little more than the protagonists about what the
> other side(s) were up to. I knew the general outline but not the
> details of their plans. So I tended to not have scenes that required
> knowing those details, and those are generally the scenes that I'm
> having to put in now.
Maybe you shouldn't put them in. Couldn't you do the whole story in a
way such that what the other side is up to only becomes clear near the
end--to both the protagonists and the readers? That, after all, is the
standard form for detective stories.
David Friedman
eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net (Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
> I have a term paper due tomorrow, so I've been working on the outline
> of this new book
!
Elizabeth Shack
<dd...@daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
>In article <3e75235b...@news.earthlink.net>,
> eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net (Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
>
>> I have a term paper due tomorrow, so I've been working on the outline
>> of this new book
>
>!
I do this every time I have a paper due. I've pretty much given up
hope of ever getting over my procrastination problem.
At least fiddling with the novel is better than playing solitaire.
I only need another thousand words or so on the paper, and it's only
11:30. For me this is pretty darn good. Usually by this time I have
burst into tears at least once and called my boyfriend to whine and
swear I'll never do it again. (He never believes me.)
And I figured out the end of the new novel while in the shower (I
would get so many ideas if I took three showers a day). It's so darn
obvious, I don't know why it didn't occur to me before.
Elizabeth Shack
Neither the protagonists nor the readers figure out exactly what has
been going on until the very end. But I do still need the scenes in
which the characters *think* they're getting it all figured out.
(They're mostly right. Just missing one very major thing.)
Nicky Browne
> On 16 Mar 2003 01:46:56 -0800, nicky.m...@btinternet.com (Nicky
> Browne) wrote:
> /snip/
>
> >I think I use the 'getting to the end' method and work out what has
> >to happen on the way there to make the story interesting.I have
> >several goes at this and I always plot on a circular clock face so
> >that I can make connections easily and decide whether to have a plot
> >with several peaks and troughs, a steady building to a climax or
> >whatever.
>
> What do you mean about a clock face?
>
many chapters I want - I write short chapters of slight less than 2k
and I use that as my basic measurement. I know I'm going to need say
ten of these to get to my first quarter so I mark off ten subsections
for each quartile. I then mark in where I think the key turning
points should come and other things like intersecting subplots (
though I'm quite a simple girl and tend not to have too many of those)
It works quite well to have key turning points around the quarter mark
for many structures so that every few chapters you are working towards
a minor dramatic climax. It rarely turns out quite so neatly in the
writing so it is unlikely to read in a formulaic way.
In my mind the end and beginning of a story are closely allied and in
three of my books the story ends pretty well where it started and even
in those books which don't - writing the end events next to those at
the beginning reminds me to keep the plot connected to its starting
point. What has changed and what has stayed the same? How much needs
tying up at the very end how much has already been sorted out in the
rest of the story?
It may be a rather idiosyncratic method but it helps to keep me
focussed - the plot is a contained thing not an infinitely extending
series of possible events. My first novel length story was quite
simple in structure but the method actually lends itself well to more
complex arrangements because you can mentally superimpose more than
one plot circle on the diagram.
It has worked for me for five novels which may well mean it won't
work any more!
>
> >I don't know how else to plot but to create this bare bones of who
> >will do what and where. /snip/ My picture of the plot gives me something to follow and something to
> >struggle against.
>
> That's what I'm trying now, and really enjoying it.
>
good - I find it gritty work plotting but it has its own
satisfactions.
Nicky
> R.L.
Helen
Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> writes
>>
> I draw a large circle and mark off the quarter hours. I decide how
>many chapters I want - I write short chapters of slight less than 2k
>and I use that as my basic measurement.
[snip]
>In my mind the end and beginning of a story are closely allied and in
>three of my books the story ends pretty well where it started and even
>in those books which don't - writing the end events next to those at
>the beginning reminds me to keep the plot connected to its starting
>point. What has changed and what has stayed the same? How much needs
>tying up at the very end how much has already been sorted out in the
>rest of the story?
>
>It may be a rather idiosyncratic method but it helps to keep me
>focussed - the plot is a contained thing not an infinitely extending
>series of possible events. My first novel length story was quite
>simple in structure but the method actually lends itself well to more
>complex arrangements because you can mentally superimpose more than
>one plot circle on the diagram.
>
> It has worked for me for five novels which may well mean it won't
>work any more!
>
Did you think this up by yourself? It sounds absolutely brilliant. This
is exactly what I need for a short story that came out completely the
"wrong shape". I knew it had to be circular instead of a straggle of
incidents, but I never thought to plan on a circular diagram. I think
it will also help with novel plotting.
Now if I combine this with a spreadsheet, I can do a pie chart of
chapters, and annotate round the edge... (wanders off into musings about
structure).
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
Stuart Houghton
+d7sBeB...@baradel.demon.co.uk:
> Did you think this up by yourself? It sounds absolutely brilliant. This
> is exactly what I need for a short story that came out completely the
> "wrong shape". I knew it had to be circular instead of a straggle of
> incidents, but I never thought to plan on a circular diagram. I think
> it will also help with novel plotting.
>
> Now if I combine this with a spreadsheet, I can do a pie chart of
> chapters, and annotate round the edge... (wanders off into musings about
> structure).
That cat of yours isn't going to have much fur left if you keep vacuuming
:-)
--
Stuart Houghton
Nicola Browne
news:H7+d7sBe...@baradel.demon.co.uk
> In article <659bfd21.03031...@posting.google.com>, Nicky
> Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> writes
> >>
> > I draw a large circle and mark off the quarter hours. I decide how
> >many chapters I want - I write short chapters of slight less than 2k
> >and I use that as my basic measurement.
>
> [> Did you think this up by yourself? It sounds absolutely brilliant. This
> is exactly what I need for a short story that came out completely the
> "wrong shape". I knew it had to be circular instead of a straggle of
> incidents, but I never thought to plan on a circular diagram. I think
> it will also help with novel plotting.
Sadly - this is simply the way I think and never having
discussed/read/learnt how to do a
novel before I did a novel I just did it like that not knowing any
better.
> Now if I combine this with a spreadsheet, I can do a pie chart of
> chapters, and annotate round the edge... (wanders off into musings about
> structure).
That sounds too complicated for me - I hope it works for you.
Nicky
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Charlie Allery
David Friedman wrote in message ...
>In article <3e75235b...@news.earthlink.net>,
> eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net (Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
>
>> I have a term paper due tomorrow, so I've been working on the outline
>> of this new book
>
>!
>
But creativity *always* increases when you don't have time to do it. I did
my best writing when I should have been revising for finals. I do my best
writing now when I really should be doing something else. What I need is a
job that will pay well and no one really minds if I don't happen to do it,
but get really good writing ideas instead. :-)
Charlie
Nicola Browne
news:MPG.18de703e5...@news.mindspring.com
> .
>>
> 3. Build an outline from the short synopsis. Begin filling in the
> details. If there is a house in the scene, what color is it?
I only outline plot which might include character's motivation but never
this kind of detail.
I leave all that to the writing. My plot summaries very much take the
form of X fights Y. Y left for dead -
rescued by Z ( though I sometimes have names by this point : ))
> 4. From the detailed outline, write a longer synopsis. This gives me a
> structured way to hold the whole story in my head.
>
> 5. Write the first draft.
>
> I've cut at least three drafts out of my normal write-revise-write-
> rewrite-revise-rerewrite process, by taking that new approach.
I'm glad its working - your method seems to involve more work and detail
than I tend to do at the plot outline stage - but its hard to tell.
Elizabeth Shack
Browne) wrote:
>R. L. <zzzm...@zzsoniczzz.zznetsss> wrote in message news:<g6k97v4v69ph8c6k7...@4ax.com>...
>> What do you mean about a clock face?
>>
> I draw a large circle and mark off the quarter hours. I decide how
>many chapters I want - I write short chapters of slight less than 2k
>and I use that as my basic measurement. I know I'm going to need say
>ten of these to get to my first quarter so I mark off ten subsections
>for each quartile. I then mark in where I think the key turning
>points should come and other things like intersecting subplots (
>though I'm quite a simple girl and tend not to have too many of those)
>It works quite well to have key turning points around the quarter mark
>for many structures so that every few chapters you are working towards
>a minor dramatic climax. It rarely turns out quite so neatly in the
>writing so it is unlikely to read in a formulaic way.
That's very cool. I bet it would work for me, too, to help visualize
the weight given to the different sections.
Elizabeth Shack
Er, if you find one, let me know what it is!
Incidentally I finished the paper, got almost 3 hrs of sleep, got much
outlining done today, and am heading off to bed soon (it's 6:30 pm).
Elizabeth Shack
<nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>I only outline plot which might include character's motivation but never
>this kind of detail.
>I leave all that to the writing. My plot summaries very much take the
>form of X fights Y. Y left for dead -
>rescued by Z ( though I sometimes have names by this point : ))
The new rapidly expanding outline includes a character Veril (anagram
of the name of someone I detest, minus a letter), and Veril's two
sons, Osov and Ysov.
Someday they will get real names.
The key to the outline so far seems to be figuring out what the
antagonists want and what they're willing to do to get it. That gave
me a couple events and led to the ending. Then working backwards from
the end has added a whole slew of stuff.
Unfortunately it seems to want to be in four different people's POV
and I don't like that idea. (partly because I'm not sure I can do it,
partly because I like books with only one POV char.) I'll worry about
that after I know the whole plot.
David J. Starr
>
> On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 23:56:03 GMT, eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net
> (Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 07:49:19 GMT, R. L.
> ><zzzm...@zzsoniczzz.zznetsss> wrote:
> /snip/
>
> >>I recently ran across some old posts where someone said she had a lot
> >>of scenes like tinsel with no tree to hang them on.
> >
> >That was me. That's what I'm trying to avoid.
>
> It's a good description of the problems I've had on previous attempts.
> This time I'm doing the tree first: just bare trunk.
>
>
bare trunk, my characters start messing up my plot. They tend to pull
out swords and things and slash thru all kinds of Gordian knots that
were supposed to baffle them and force them to follow my preconceived
plot.
--
David J. Starr dst...@TheWorld.com
silvasurfa
"Elizabeth Shack" <eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3e73db35...@news.earthlink.net...
>
> 4. Work backwards from the end: There are at least three possible
> endings and I don't really like any of them. But this seems to have
> at least some possibilities. (If the ending is that K & D decide H is
> in the right, then they must have met him at least once.)
> Elizabeth
>
One technique I use for shorts is I take a piece of A4 paper, I write a one
very short summary of the bit of the ending that is the "payoff" to the
reader for having read, above that I write in very small letter the
components that are necessary for the payoff to happen, then I draw lines
with arrows upwards to about where I instinctually feel those components
should be introduced/foreshadowed/dealt with. This gives me a possible
"shape" of the story, and often the plot just flows from there with a few
changes.
I do something similar but with several columns on a whiteboard for the
frequent novel attempts that I never finish. Takes about 2 hours for a
short, 6 weeks for a novel, working about an hour each night. There's more
linking and weaving of story components for a novel, hence the whiteboard
for frequent alterations.
Brian M. Scott
(Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
[...]
>The new rapidly expanding outline includes a character Veril (anagram
>of the name of someone I detest, minus a letter), and Veril's two
>sons, Osov and Ysov.
Is it safe to assume that Osov is older than Ysov? <g>
[...]
Brian
David Friedman
eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net (Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
> >But creativity *always* increases when you don't have time to do it. I did
> >my best writing when I should have been revising for finals. I do my best
> >writing now when I really should be doing something else. What I need is a
> >job that will pay well and no one really minds if I don't happen to do it,
> >but get really good writing ideas instead. :-)
>
> Er, if you find one, let me know what it is!
The trick is getting tenure.
silvasurfa
> On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:39:39 -0000, "Charlie Allery"
> <cha...@charlieallery.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >David Friedman wrote in message ...
> >>In article <3e75235b...@news.earthlink.net>,
> >> eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net (Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have a term paper due tomorrow, so I've been working on the outline
> >>> of this new book
> >>
> >>!
> >>
> >
> >
> >But creativity *always* increases when you don't have time to do it. I
did
> >my best writing when I should have been revising for finals. I do my best
> >writing now when I really should be doing something else. What I need is
a
> >job that will pay well and no one really minds if I don't happen to do
it,
> >but get really good writing ideas instead. :-)
>
> Er, if you find one, let me know what it is!
One of the standard "lurks" for established writers seems to be a weekly
column in a local newspaper. Although the paper will very much care if you
don't meet deadlines, there is little stopping you being several columns
ahead and thus able to take a few weeks off at a time. This seems to be one
of those jobs that is about not what you know but who you know, so get
schmoozing.
Brian D. Fernald
cha...@charlieallery.demon.co.uk said...
I'm an outlier. My level of creativity systematically declines as the
number of necessary action items within a dayunit increases.
Sitting on my porch, drinking coffee, on a protospring day will
generate creative thoughts, walking through a bookstore will generate
creative thoughts, and going to work (or doing work) will generate
thoughts of work.
--
BDF.
FSOBN.
Remus Shepherd
methodology. But it doesn't get to the meat of the matter, in my opinion.
Namely, when preparing a plot, what exactly do you write down?
As an example I'll use a short story of mine with a fairly linear plot
structure. When I plot something, I outline it like this: (To avoid
confusion, I should note that 'Plan' is the name of my main character.)
Scene 1: Introduction -- Plan meets the warbots
Scene 2: Exposition -- Plan in the debris
Scene 3: Twist -- Plan meets Ghost
Scene 4: Development -- Plan and Folly
Scene 5: Climax -- Plan versus warbots
Scene 6: Denouement -- Plan, Ghost, Folly.
Or in other words, when I outline I use as benchmarks the characters in
the scene and the purpose I want that scene to serve. Later on I'll fill
each part of the outline with more detail. But there are other ways to do
it. I could have outlined this story thematically:
Scene 1: Tension, strangers come to town.
Scene 2: Ponderings about life, foreshadowing for Plan.
Scene 3: Introduction of central theme (Ghost).
Scene 4: Character development, central theme development.
Scene 5: Full revelation for Plan's character.
Scene 6: Full revelation for central theme.
Or I could have outlined this story more mechanically, describing what
happens rather than why:
Scene 1: Plan talks to warbots.
Scene 2: Plan wanders debris.
Scene 3: Plan meets Ghost, finds creche.
Scene 4: Plan and Folly make a baby.
Scene 5: Folly dies, Plan escapes with creche.
Scene 6: Plan realizes what Ghost is, the end.
I also could have plotted this story according to the settings for each
scene. I won't write that one out because it wouldn't work well for this
story -- there's only two settings. :)
See, I think it's interesting how people lay out their stories -- whether
linearly, in circles, or in branching trees or what have you. But I think
it's more interesting *what* you lay out. What do you use as milestones
by which your stories are plotted -- settings, characters, themes, actions,
or something else?
(And don't say, 'Use whatever works for you'. :) The point of learning
how other people do it is to try new things, because some method I might not
have thought of myself might work better for me. I intend to give Nicky's
clock faces a trial run, just to see if it works for me. :) )
... ...
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com>
Zeborah
> I do this every time I have a paper due. I've pretty much given up
> hope of ever getting over my procrastination problem.
Procrastination isn't a problem, it's a method.
Is this still on-line?
http://www-csli.stanford.edu/~john/procrastination.html
If not, I could email you the text.
Zeborah
--
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz2000
Kangaroo story wordcount: 36022 words
Brian D. Fernald
> All this thread has been very interesting, and Nicky you have a unique
> methodology. But it doesn't get to the meat of the matter, in my opinion.
> Namely, when preparing a plot, what exactly do you write down?
>
> As an example I'll use a short story of mine with a fairly linear plot
> structure. When I plot something, I outline it like this: (To avoid
> confusion, I should note that 'Plan' is the name of my main character.)
>
My synopsis always focuses on the story, not the plot, that is saved
for the outline. The story, for my purposes, is the events as they
occur in time. The plot, is the cause and effect relationships of the
various time separated story items.
> Scene 1: Introduction -- Plan meets the warbots
> Scene 2: Exposition -- Plan in the debris
> Scene 3: Twist -- Plan meets Ghost
> Scene 4: Development -- Plan and Folly
> Scene 5: Climax -- Plan versus warbots
> Scene 6: Denouement -- Plan, Ghost, Folly.
>
> Or in other words, when I outline I use as benchmarks the characters in
> the scene and the purpose I want that scene to serve. Later on I'll fill
> each part of the outline with more detail. But there are other ways to do
> it. I could have outlined this story thematically:
>
> Scene 1: Tension, strangers come to town.
> Scene 2: Ponderings about life, foreshadowing for Plan.
> Scene 3: Introduction of central theme (Ghost).
> Scene 4: Character development, central theme development.
> Scene 5: Full revelation for Plan's character.
> Scene 6: Full revelation for central theme.
>
> Or I could have outlined this story more mechanically, describing what
> happens rather than why:
>
> Scene 1: Plan talks to warbots.
> Scene 2: Plan wanders debris.
> Scene 3: Plan meets Ghost, finds creche.
> Scene 4: Plan and Folly make a baby.
> Scene 5: Folly dies, Plan escapes with creche.
> Scene 6: Plan realizes what Ghost is, the end.
>
In my outlines, I use all three.
Scene 1.
A. Functional Purpose:
B. Mood:
C. Characters:
D. Action:
E. Setting:
F. Symbolism:
...etc...
Scene 2.
A. Functional Purpose:
B. Mood:
C. Characters:
D. Action:
E. Setting:
F. Symbolism:
..etc...
Scene 3.
[...]
By writing the synopsis first, I usually have a really good idea based
the 'brainstorming' of the synopsis of what each value should be. And,
if I don't have a good idea of what it should be, I at least know some
of the things that I should figure out real fast.
I also can get into orgies of detail in my outline, much of it that
will not ever make it into the final draft. (But more on that later)
> I also could have plotted this story according to the settings for each
> scene. I won't write that one out because it wouldn't work well for this
> story -- there's only two settings. :)
Your characters only exist in two places? If Plan is talking to
warbots, wandering debris, finding a creche, etc. there seems to be
more then two settings.
> See, I think it's interesting how people lay out their stories -- whether
> linearly, in circles, or in branching trees or what have you. But I think
> it's more interesting *what* you lay out. What do you use as milestones
> by which your stories are plotted -- settings, characters, themes, actions,
> or something else?
My processes are like ogres, which are like onions. I could say that
they are like cakes, because cakes have layers, but ogres are not
cakes. Nor, are they like parfaits, despite the fact that nearly
everyone likes parfaits, parfaits are not like ogres. Ogres are like
onions. My stories are like ogres. That is to say, my stories are
like onions. (What can I say, I just watched Shrek for the umpenth
time.)
> (And don't say, 'Use whatever works for you'. :) The point of learning
> how other people do it is to try new things, because some method I might not
> have thought of myself might work better for me. I intend to give Nicky's
> clock faces a trial run, just to see if it works for me. :) )
Sure, try new things, use WHICHEVER one works for you. (See, I didn't
say, 'Use whatever works for you'. Dolt!)
My current process, 'short synopsis, outline, long synopsis, outline,
rough draft' was born out of a terrible feeling blooming ffrom my
previous undisciplined and flow based way of writing. Subtle changes
in location, time, place, score, barometeric pressure, etc. would alter
the run of the story as it flowed from the brain to the page. If I
wrote at my house in the morning and at a cafe in the afternoon, you
could tell from the flow of words on the page that I had changed
location. With each change in location comes a change in perspective.
This is why I would waste so much time in revision, because I had to
'normalize' the sometimes quick changes in the flow.
By changing the way in which I prepare to write the bloody blasted
thing, by creating the story as a entire object in my mind before I do
any serious writing on it, I've been able to remove many of the quick
changes. No longer does the arrival of a pretty girl in the cafe that
I am writing in, make me add another pretty girl to the story, for
example...
Nowadays, I know the story, before I was figuring the story out as I
went along. I liken it to weapons training. At the beginning you
practice and are mindful of the practice. Now I do this, and then I do
this, and then... Eventually, you pass beyond the point where you have
to focus on each movement, and you can just do the movement.
I was in a nutshell, trying to the do the movement, without having done
any practice work beforehand.
--
BDF.
FSOBN.
Nicola Browne
news:b57g9k$64g$1...@reader2.panix.com
> All this thread has been very interesting, and Nicky you have a unique
> methodology. But it doesn't get to the meat of the matter, in my opinion.
> Namely, when preparing a plot, what exactly do you write down?
>
OK this is going to be boring.
I've dug out a preliminary chapter by chapter summary for Basilisk in
long hand( quick plug it'sto be published in 2004)which I did from the
clock face. ( I can't believe I've lost that.)
chapter 1 is easy because I'd written that and I've put in black ink :
Morning Day 1 Dream of dragons - warned by a slave to be wary of
Melagior.And in red:
'Night before Melagior argues with Harfoot' and 'Capla knows Melagior
tortured Immina?'
I have to say I have no clue what it means now.
Further down for sections I hadn't then written, there is more detail
but not much:
chapter 7 reads:Day 2 Immina asks for help. Sings the song of the
Basilisk's breath.
Melagior asks if one of Harfoot's people checks seen ( illegible)
returns to refectory.
Capla - I will meet you when bowls are emptied.
I think this means that for the bits I haven't written I tend to
imagine fragments of scenes - odd sentences that are to remind me of
something (?)
I have still got the notes for the weird book I wrote before christmas
and the very first idea is in four blocks of text arranged in a kind of
lumpy circle.
It begins: 'unhappy boy meets unhappy girl' and says things like
'Get on a train to Wales. She is getting odder.
He tries to send a message.They buy food and are miserable'( Great eh? I
can see everyone rushing out to buy that))
On the next page of my notebook I have a half done clock face for
chapters 1-18
Again the first four chapters are clear because I'd written them and by
chapter 18 it's getting dodgy. I've written' You said you were alone
when you called Mum. Jenny ill( next line illegible)This is not what
happened.'
Again I have no idea what I meant, but after this I think I went on
to do several more circles until I got all the way to chapter 30.
Each time the thinking got slightly more coherent. I have lost the final
version (fantastic office organisation) But I know that for this
particular
story,in spite of severe doubts in the middle,I followed my plot plan
almost
exactly so it must have been coherent by then.
I tend to forget how difficult all this is once I've done it. It takes
many attempts and although the method is rational my thinking isn't : )
If this helps anyone I'd be very surprised.
Suzanne Palmer
> 6. Just make stuff up. "Davin decides that antagonistcouncillor must
> be beheaded." "Kya sneaks out for a secret tryst with H." "Giant
> eagles lay eggs in the courtyard."
This could be cool if it all happens simultaneously.
---
Davin raised the axe, feeling all eyes in the courtyard on him as an
expectant hush fell over the crowd. Letting a self-satisfied smile
linger on his face, he was about the let the blade fall when he heard
a small sound, completely incongruous.
He stood stock still, listening, and heard it again. "Is... is someone
under the dias?" he hissed at his apprentice, who looked as nonplussed
as he.
Trying to maintain his dignity, the apprentice knelt stiffly and
lifted up the burlap surrounding the platform. Hastily, he let the
cloth drop as he stepped back. "Yes, M'lord," he said, voice faint.
"Um..."
The condemned councillor turned his head as best he could, trying to
see what was going on. "Eyes front!" Davis snapped, resting his boot
on the man's neck to emphasize the command. Two figures burst out from
under the dias, clothing disshevelled, and melted into the astonished
crowd.
"This is not a circus!" he shouted, wondering what else could happen
to diminish this victory. Even as he began to once again heft the axe,
a dark shadow fell over him. The crowd drew back nervously, and he
could not help but look up. A giant eagle missed his head by inches,
and settled comfortably into the woven grass catch-basket at the base
of the chopping block, giving him a suspicious glare.
"M'lord?" the apprentice asked.
"No, no, don't even say it," Davin said, and threw his axe down in the
dust beside the dias. "I'm going back to my tower. Call me when spring
is over."
---
(sorry to hijack your characters for a moment there.)
-Suzanne
Irina Rempt
> Elizabeth Shack <eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> I do this every time I have a paper due. I've pretty much given up
>> hope of ever getting over my procrastination problem.
>
> Procrastination isn't a problem, it's a method.
>
> Is this still on-line?
> http://www-csli.stanford.edu/~john/procrastination.html
Yes! You're great! Thank you!
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/~irina/foundobjects/ Latest: 11-Mar-2003
Charlie Allery
Zeborah wrote in message <1fs1jzj.121arukow9aawN%zeb...@netaccess.co.nz>...
>Elizabeth Shack <eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> I do this every time I have a paper due. I've pretty much given up
>> hope of ever getting over my procrastination problem.
>
>Procrastination isn't a problem, it's a method.
>
>Is this still on-line?
>http://www-csli.stanford.edu/~john/procrastination.html
>
>If not, I could email you the text.
>
That is just so cool. Did he read my mind or something? That's exactly how
some of my best ideas come. I really should be doing this, but suddenly I'm
really enthused about this other thing. And of course he's right about
nothing really happening when you've got nothing else to do. :-)
Thanks
Charlie
Suzanne Palmer
snipped]
You're all making me feel so bad )-:
I have no idea how I plot. I have no idea how I write. I have an urge
to sit down and write and I put my fingers on the keyboard and stuff
comes out. Short stories tend to completely come out of nowhere, I
don't have the foggiest idea what I'm going to write until I'm writing
it, or how it's going to end until I'm done.
With my novel, it was much the same way, except I had this sort of
vague concept ("Evil travel agents"), and a vague character ("bumbling
but loveable guy"), and everything just sort of fell together. Which
worked great for a first draft, but when it comes to revising, I'm
completely at a loss...
I have no methodology. I have no outlines. I have no clue what I'm
doing. Some days, I think that means I ought to just give up.
-Suzanne
(whose muse has apparently gone south for the winter)
Julian Flood
"Suzanne Palmer" <spa...@umassp.edu> wrote
> [circular diagrams, pie charts, outlines, and spreadsheets all
> snipped]
>
> You're all making me feel so bad )-:
>
> I have no idea how I plot. I have no idea how I write. I >
> I have no methodology. I have no outlines. I have no clue what I'm
> doing.
>
Yeah! Go fer it!
JF
Brenda W. Clough
In fact you do not need all that stuff. All you need is a nose for
quality. You write it and you smell it. It does not smell good!
Change it, at random if necessary, until it is good. Repeat until it's
done.
All this discussion is merely an effort to dope out general rules about
what is wrong and what should be changed.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.fictionwise.com
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Dan Goodman
@erols.com:
> Julian Flood wrote:
>
>>"Suzanne Palmer" <spa...@umassp.edu> wrote
>>
>> > [circular diagrams, pie charts, outlines, and spreadsheets all
>>
>>>snipped]
>>>
>>>You're all making me feel so bad )-:
>>>
>>>I have no idea how I plot. I have no idea how I write. I >
>>>I have no methodology. I have no outlines. I have no clue what I'm
>>>doing.
>>>
>>
>>Yeah! Go fer it!
>
> In fact you do not need all that stuff. All you need is a nose for
> quality. You write it and you smell it. It does not smell good!
> Change it, at random if necessary, until it is good. Repeat until it's
> done.
I think this is in the "Your mileage WILL vary!" category.
Remus Shepherd
> I have no methodology. I have no outlines. I have no clue what I'm
> doing. Some days, I think that means I ought to just give up.
Oh, Suzanne, we wouldn't be discussing this if we thought we knew what
we were doing. :) Everyone does something different, as this thread has
proven. If it works for you that's terrific!
I like outlines and organized purpose when writing a story because I have
a scientific mind. I *envy* the artists out there who just sit down and
create things. :)
R. L.
<re...@panix.com> wrote:
/snip interesting alternatives/
> Or I could have outlined this story more mechanically, describing what
>happens rather than why:
>
> Scene 1: Plan talks to warbots.
> Scene 2: Plan wanders debris.
> Scene 3: Plan meets Ghost, finds creche.
> Scene 4: Plan and Folly make a baby.
> Scene 5: Folly dies, Plan escapes with creche.
> Scene 6: Plan realizes what Ghost is, the end.
>
> I also could have plotted this story according to the settings for each
>scene. I won't write that one out because it wouldn't work well for this
>story -- there's only two settings. :)
>
> See, I think it's interesting how people lay out their stories -- whether
>linearly, in circles, or in branching trees or what have you. But I think
>it's more interesting *what* you lay out. What do you use as milestones
>by which your stories are plotted -- settings, characters, themes, actions,
>or something else?
That's just what I've been thinking about!
My current Method in Testing, which has got me further than any
previous. began with Propp's generic outline of a fairy tale (kind of
like the "Hero's Journey" formula for screenwriting). Hero pursued,
Hero rescued, etc.
For an exercise, I'm trying to retell the long Russian folktale
"Marya Morevna" as a "middle grade reader". Almost every sentence
from the version in the _Red Fairy Book_ seems to fit one of Propp's
lines. For each line, I'm writing a scene (occasionally more) that
will have that line as its outcome (sort of like what Bickham called
'the disaster'.)
It's working very well so far. I began as I do on short fairy tales,
with the climax scene and worked backwards. This way I can't get stuck
for a finish as with some earlier long pieces I tried.
Here are some samples of scale:
Ivan rescues MM from castle
They flee across country
K sets out in pursuit
K catches them, injures Ivan and throws him in river
Downstream, monks rescue Ivan from river
After completing that list of End Milestones, I went through and added
Beginning Milestones: the scene's POV character and zir immediate goal
at beginning of scene. This is just to help me get my own imagination
going on the scene. They can be quite loosely related, for example:
Beginning: Maid wants to clean monastery library.
Action: Dowager recruits Maid into resistance organization
Through window Maid observes the injured Ivan floating
down river
End: Monks have pulled hero from river and taken him to infirmary
Rosemary L.
http://www.rosemarylake.com
Marilee J. Layman
<re...@panix.com> wrote:
> I like outlines and organized purpose when writing a story because I have
>a scientific mind. I *envy* the artists out there who just sit down and
>create things. :)
What makes you think they don't use outlines and organized purpose?
I'm currently working on a subversive piece using a pyramid and an eye
bead. The base of the pyramid is graphed on my computer and I thought
through the entire piece, from which beads to use to what technique to
where to place colors, etc.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Handmade Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
David Friedman
Suzanne Palmer <spa...@umassp.edu> wrote:
> [circular diagrams, pie charts, outlines, and spreadsheets all
> snipped]
>
> You're all making me feel so bad )-:
...
> I have no methodology. I have no outlines. I have no clue what I'm
> doing. Some days, I think that means I ought to just give up.
Except for writing outlines after I figure out the plot and before I
write it all down, much the same is true for me. Don't feel bad--just
because they're all compulsively organized is no reason we have to be.
Boudewijn Rempt
> On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 02:46:05 +0000 (UTC), Remus Shepherd
> <re...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> I like outlines and organized purpose when writing a story because I
>> have
>>a scientific mind. I *envy* the artists out there who just sit down and
>>create things. :)
>
> What makes you think they don't use outlines and organized purpose?
> I'm currently working on a subversive piece using a pyramid and an eye
> bead. The base of the pyramid is graphed on my computer and I thought
> through the entire piece, from which beads to use to what technique to
> where to place colors, etc.
>
Well, if Remus was talking about me-as-sculptor or me-as-pencil-wielder
he was _right_; I don't outline or plan, I just sit down and start. Found
it easier when I was younger, though. When I write, I tend to write three
or maybe ten outlines, and then sit down and just write, occasionally
updating the latest outline with what really appears to be happening.
I mean, my outline says Chapter: 13. Charyan army arrives at the Gap of
Droi. Find the Barushlani Army waiting for them. Chapter 13 actually is
about convincing Sedom lua Tiroi that he shouldn't use a dragon to kill
off a breakaway unit of his own army.
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Nicky Browne
Cue hysterical laughter from anyone who has ever met me. I don't think
my kindest friend would call me ( remotely) organised let alone
compulsively so : )
Nicky ( of the circular clock face method)
Elizabeth Shack
<re...@panix.com> wrote:
> All this thread has been very interesting, and Nicky you have a unique
>methodology. But it doesn't get to the meat of the matter, in my opinion.
>Namely, when preparing a plot, what exactly do you write down?
Uh. It never occured to me to write down anything other than the
action:
Chapter 5
1. Polly spies out the conspiracy (Banwell's office).
[M&S meet with the elves. Wren works on magestone. Sel spies on
Taelia & Sirellea.]
2. a.Wren and Seliveon and Polly go talk to Carter about what she
found, & the magestone. P asks why CG is keeping it a secret. More
political discussion. -- M&S join them. Wren plans to teach P, M & S
magic.
Evening
b.Polly reads Sora's notes on the magestone. Polly reads Micha's
notes. Talks to Jules about Temple, Jules' family.
Day 6
Morning
3. The musicians and Polly & CG head off to the Council meeting. B
mentions he found something about Vilel.
Amount of detail in the outline varies - later chapters have more, and
when stuff gets changed significantly, I put details in the outline.
It's color and font-coded:
purple for offstage (also square brackets so I can tell on the
printout), red for not written, blue for needs changed.
Lucida Sans for handwritten, Arial for typed in, Times New Roman once
it's all done.
But this was all done during and after I wrote the first draft, not
before. I'm using the same sort of thing (though it's an unnumbered
list) for the new WiP.
Maybe writing down why things happen might help, I don't know. the
reasons why are rather obvious to me when I look at the actions.
<snip & rearrange>
> Scene 1: Introduction -- Plan meets the warbots
> Scene 2: Exposition -- Plan in the debris
So this is what happens when you go off the outline?
> (To avoid confusion, I should note that 'Plan' is the name of my main character.)
Oh.
Elizabeth Shack
wrote:
>Elizabeth Shack <eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> I do this every time I have a paper due. I've pretty much given up
>> hope of ever getting over my procrastination problem.
>
>Procrastination isn't a problem, it's a method.
>
>Is this still on-line?
>http://www-csli.stanford.edu/~john/procrastination.html
>
>If not, I could email you the text.
I have it. ("Structured Procrastination") I'd rather have a method
that leaves me with more than 3 hours of sleep the night before
something's due.
Elizabeth Shack
<spa...@umassp.edu> wrote:
>Elizabeth Shack wrote:
>> 6. Just make stuff up. "Davin decides that antagonistcouncillor must
>> be beheaded." "Kya sneaks out for a secret tryst with H." "Giant
>> eagles lay eggs in the courtyard."
>
>This could be cool if it all happens simultaneously.
<snip hilarity>
>(sorry to hijack your characters for a moment there.)
No problem. The giggling fit was well worth it.
I definitely know that scene *doesn't* happen in the book.
Elizabeth Shack
<spa...@umassp.edu> wrote:
>[circular diagrams, pie charts, outlines, and spreadsheets all
>snipped]
>
>You're all making me feel so bad )-:
No, no, don't feel bad! If I knew what I were doing, I wouldn't have
asked for help.
>With my novel, it was much the same way, except I had this sort of
>vague concept ("Evil travel agents"), and a vague character ("bumbling
>but loveable guy"), and everything just sort of fell together. Which
>worked great for a first draft, but when it comes to revising, I'm
>completely at a loss...
That's why I'm trying not to do it that way again.
Elizabeth Shack
<clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>In fact you do not need all that stuff. All you need is a nose for
>quality. You write it and you smell it. It does not smell good!
> Change it, at random if necessary, until it is good. Repeat until it's
>done.
>
>All this discussion is merely an effort to dope out general rules about
>what is wrong and what should be changed.
Not so much rules as things to try to speed up the "repeat until it's
done" process.
Elizabeth Shack
<mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 02:46:05 +0000 (UTC), Remus Shepherd
><re...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> I like outlines and organized purpose when writing a story because I have
>>a scientific mind. I *envy* the artists out there who just sit down and
>>create things. :)
>
>What makes you think they don't use outlines and organized purpose?
>I'm currently working on a subversive piece using a pyramid and an eye
>bead. The base of the pyramid is graphed on my computer and I thought
>through the entire piece, from which beads to use to what technique to
>where to place colors, etc.
I think he meant he envies the artists who don't plan but doesn't envy
the ones who do plan, not that there are no artists who plan. At
least that's how I read it.
Remus Shepherd
> On Tue, 18 Mar 2003 23:30:27 -0500, Marilee J. Layman
>>>a scientific mind. I *envy* the artists out there who just sit down and
>>>create things. :)
>>
>>What makes you think they don't use outlines and organized purpose?
>>I'm currently working on a subversive piece using a pyramid and an eye
>>bead. The base of the pyramid is graphed on my computer and I thought
>>through the entire piece, from which beads to use to what technique to
>>where to place colors, etc.
> I think he meant he envies the artists who don't plan but doesn't envy
> the ones who do plan, not that there are no artists who plan. At
> least that's how I read it.
Elizabeth understands me. :)
Brian D. Fernald
> [circular diagrams, pie charts, outlines, and spreadsheets all
> snipped]
>
> You're all making me feel so bad )-:
> I have no methodology. I have no outlines. I have no clue what I'm
> doing. Some days, I think that means I ought to just give up.
my head. My dominant bloodlines, german and french, are constantly at
war with each other. The french bloodline wants to sit in a cafe,
sipping coffee, smiling at the pretty girls, and wait for that perfect
moment of inspiration. The German bloodline wants to perfectly
engineer a solution to the problem. So cheer up, at least your
ancestral heritage is lobbing artillery shells at each other in your
head.
--
BDF.
FSOBN.
Suzanne Palmer
> I think he meant he envies the artists who don't plan but doesn't envy
> the ones who do plan, not that there are no artists who plan.
I dunno, but I did learn (eventually) not to make anything bigger than
the door to my workshop.
-Suzanne
Suzanne Palmer
>
> Suzanne Palmer <spa...@umassp.edu> wrote:
> > I have no methodology. I have no outlines. I have no clue what I'm
> > doing. Some days, I think that means I ought to just give up.
>
> Oh, Suzanne, we wouldn't be discussing this if we thought we knew what
> we were doing. :) Everyone does something different, as this thread has
> proven. If it works for you that's terrific!
It works for first drafts, and it works for short stories. But for big
revision, it sucks the farm down to the last piglet. I swore I'd get
this novel into shape and out the door by the end of this year, but I
just haven't managed a single step forward. I wonder if, had I had
more process in the beginning, if this wouldn't be so difficult now.
But then, I also know myself well enough to know that "me" and
"process" aren't very compatible... )-:
> I like outlines and organized purpose when writing a story because I have
> a scientific mind. I *envy* the artists out there who just sit down and
> create things. :)
This is very likely one of those "grass is always greener on the other
side" things...
-Suzanne
Remus Shepherd
> I wonder if, had I had more process in the beginning, if this wouldn't be
> so difficult now.
Well, speaking as someone who has a fair amount of process in the
beginning, revisions are still bloody difficult. :)
> This is very likely one of those "grass is always greener on the other
> side" things...
I agree. I think it's interesting, though, to see what grass your
neighbor is planting. You can always try a different grass seed next
spring...
Lori Selke
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
> See, I think it's interesting how people lay out their stories -- whether
>linearly, in circles, or in branching trees or what have you. But I think
>it's more interesting *what* you lay out. What do you use as milestones
>by which your stories are plotted -- settings, characters, themes, actions,
>or something else?
Here's one what will give unique insight into my head:
I did an outline, but now I can't find it.
That's OK, though, because once I did it I didn't need it anymore.
Also, I only outlined about 2/3 of the action and left the resolution
unscripted.
And as to what milestones I used, well, all of the above. Generally
I was trying to break it down to "scene hook" -- that would be writing
hook, not reading hook -- and that hook could be anything from a snippet
of dialog to a character or setting's appearance to a little anecdote
or piece of action or...whatever might give me enough to sit down
and start writing.
Lori
--
se...@io.com, se...@mindspring.com, http://www.io.com/~selk
"I do not mind nudity, in a modest and natural way, but Etty's women really
thrust their nakedness upon you so with malice aforethought."
-- Nathaniel Hawthorne
Joshua P. Hill
>Suzanne Palmer <spa...@umassp.edu> wrote:
>> I have no methodology. I have no outlines. I have no clue what I'm
>> doing. Some days, I think that means I ought to just give up.
>
> Oh, Suzanne, we wouldn't be discussing this if we thought we knew what
>we were doing. :) Everyone does something different, as this thread has
>proven. If it works for you that's terrific!
Also, I don't think a writer need necessarily use the same process
each time. Different techniques can produce different results, and a
tightly-plotted mystery may have different requirements than a
sprawling character piece.
> I like outlines and organized purpose when writing a story because I have
>a scientific mind. I *envy* the artists out there who just sit down and
>create things. :)
Funny -- like you, I'm in the habit of knowing exactly what I plan to
do before I do it, and so I have trouble letting go when I write
poetry -- my every instinct tells me I should know exactly what I'm
about to do and why I'm about to do it. I'm forever astonished when
something reasonably coherent pops out.
And when I was writing my novel, things took on a life of their own.
It was marvelous, as if I was reading a book, but feeling it more
intensely.
Josh
Marilee J. Layman
LOL Yes, I worry that if my shower insert has to be replaced, lots of
drywall will have to come down. It was put in place before the walls
were.
Marilee J. Layman
Sorry. You got the overflow of an argument in a jewelry forum.
There's a woman there who wrote an enormous (misspelled, bad grammar)
artist's statement and she says that if you don't know about the
maker's background and motivations, it isn't art. I say that if you
have to know about the maker, then the work isn't art, it's
self-aggrandizement. Art should stand on its own.
David Friedman
wrote:
>I dunno, but I did learn (eventually) not to make anything bigger than
>the door to my workshop.
You don't have a saw?
Zeborah
> Remus Shepherd wrote:
> >
> > Suzanne Palmer <spa...@umassp.edu> wrote:
> > > I have no methodology. I have no outlines. I have no clue what I'm
> > > doing. Some days, I think that means I ought to just give up.
> >
> > Oh, Suzanne, we wouldn't be discussing this if we thought we knew what
> > we were doing. :) Everyone does something different, as this thread has
> > proven. If it works for you that's terrific!
>
> It works for first drafts, and it works for short stories. But for big
> revision, it sucks the farm down to the last piglet.
Are you able to outline after the first draft, and base the revision on
that? It helps me, a bit, get the idea of the whole thing in my head.
I rarely outline before the first draft's finished.
Zeborah
--
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz2000
Kangaroo story wordcount: 36022 words
Elizabeth Shack
wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 23:42:51 GMT, eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net
>(Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
>
>>The new rapidly expanding outline includes a character Veril (anagram
>>of the name of someone I detest, minus a letter), and Veril's two
>>sons, Osov and Ysov.
>
>Is it safe to assume that Osov is older than Ysov? <g>
Yep. I hope they don't get stuck with their acronyms, like Professor
Acting Head Mage has.
Elizabeth Shack
<eric...@bigpond.blah.com> wrote:
>One technique I use for shorts is I take a piece of A4 paper, I write a one
>very short summary of the bit of the ending that is the "payoff" to the
>reader for having read, above that I write in very small letter the
>components that are necessary for the payoff to happen, then I draw lines
>with arrows upwards to about where I instinctually feel those components
>should be introduced/foreshadowed/dealt with. This gives me a possible
>"shape" of the story, and often the plot just flows from there with a few
>changes.
I figured out the end to the new book, and started doing somehting
like what you describe on Monday. I haven't quite got to the point
where I need to decide exactly when in the plot they happen.
>I do something similar but with several columns on a whiteboard for the
>frequent novel attempts that I never finish. Takes about 2 hours for a
>short, 6 weeks for a novel, working about an hour each night. There's more
>linking and weaving of story components for a novel, hence the whiteboard
>for frequent alterations.
Someday I'm going to get a whiteboard. I've never yet had any place
to put one.
R. L.
>The new rapidly expanding outline includes a character Veril (anagram
>of the name of someone I detest, minus a letter), and Veril's two
>sons, Osov and Ysov.
>
>Someday they will get real names.
I do that kind of thing all the time. Some stories go nearly to final
draft with characters named Middlesister and Badprince etc.
>The key to the outline so far seems to be figuring out what the
>antagonists want and what they're willing to do to get it. That gave
>me a couple events and led to the ending. Then working backwards from
>the end has added a whole slew of stuff.
Working backwards does that for me too.
I still get stuck whenever I have to focus my imagination on the
villains, even if it's happening off-stage. Hm, maybe
outlining/synopsis could help with that. Instead of tryiing to imagine
myself in the villian's place to find out what he would do and write
it all at once (as I often do with good guys), maybe I should just in
cold blood theory figure out what he would probably do and write it
down as a detailed outline, and then later just turn it into decent
prose, unless it belongs off-stage anyway.
>Unfortunately it seems to want to be in four different people's POV
>and I don't like that idea. (partly because I'm not sure I can do it,
>partly because I like books with only one POV char.) I'll worry about
>that after I know the whole plot.
Yes. You could even write part of the rough draft in the four
different people's POV and then change it later if you didn't like it.
At least you'd have the events down in enough detail.
R.L.
David Friedman
R. L. <zzzm...@zzsoniczzz.zznetsss> wrote:
> I still get stuck whenever I have to focus my imagination on the
> villains, even if it's happening off-stage. Hm, maybe
> outlining/synopsis could help with that. Instead of tryiing to imagine
> myself in the villian's place to find out what he would do and write
> it all at once (as I often do with good guys), maybe I should just in
> cold blood theory figure out what he would probably do and write it
> down as a detailed outline, and then later just turn it into decent
> prose, unless it belongs off-stage anyway.
But isn't there a risk that, if you can't get inside his head, you will
end up writing him as cardboard? Perhaps the reason you can't focus your
imagination on the villains is that you can't really believe in them as
people.
My experience was that once I focussed on my villains, they stopped
being villains, even if they remained antagonists. I have one major
villain remaining (not focussed on), and if I eventually go through with
the idea of giving him a book of his own I am confident he will stop
being a villain and become someone who was doing bad things for at least
moderately plausible good reasons.
Graham Woodland
Lord's Minister of Tranquility (i.e. internal security) is surely the
most thoroughgoing villain of the piece. I don't have any trouble
getting inside his head, though I don't think I could stand being there
for very long.
Anton Vary Amelion is cultured, intelligent, and rather charming in
small doses; he's not even particularly sadistic, though he would not
know a squeam if you smacked him in the face with one. He doesn't do
bad things (or much of anything) without a reason. All he wants is
absolute personal power and security, and he doesn't care what he does
to get it. He uses terror and torture as freely as the Dark Lord will
let him -- actually, *more* than the Dark Lord would let him, if he knew
the whole deal -- because he's found them extremely effective for his
purposes.
Anton has no sense of either personal or political loyalty, and at the
first opportunity cooks up an audacious scheme to replace the (lesser-
godlike) Dark Lord with himself. He would probably be a saner and less
destructive ruler than, say, Hitler or Stalin or Mao. He has nothing
whatever to prove to himself, isn't a big hater, and is a thoroughgoing
pragmatist almost untainted by ideology.
But he is still a serious sociopath (if you want to be parlour-
psychological about it); or a thoroughly evil, poisonous, nihilistic
bastard who doesn't get the difference between people and things, and
turns everything he touches into politically expedient nightmares (if
you want to look at it from the point of view of people in his own
world).
I understand him all right: his motives are horribly simple, and he
really *doesn't* see that the world would be any better if he behaved
differently. He thinks the world would be exactly the same, but with
him being a deluded and dumped-upon pawn, and some bastard/enlightened
person other than himself getting all the good bits. It doesn't change
the fact that he's an unmitigated villain, IMO. And I deliberately
wrote him without a penchant for recreational torture, rape, 'I abase
myself, Master!'-ing, etc. ad naus. -- partly because these are kinks up
with which the Dark Lord will not put, and would probably have found out
about by now if his Minister indulged them; and partly because the usual
trappings of stock villainy would tend to obscure why Anton is not just
horrible, but horrible in a way which gets to quietly overshadow half a
continent.
Besides, they are cheap ways to get a reader to hate him, and Anton
shouldn't *need* cheap tricks to do that...
Cheers,
--
Gray
http://www.quilpole.demon.co.uk
"She does not get eaten by the sharks at this time."
- William Goldman, _The Princess Bride_.
silvasurfa
"Elizabeth Shack" <eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3e79b865...@news.earthlink.net...
>
> Someday I'm going to get a whiteboard. I've never yet had any place
> to put one.
>
> --
> Elizabeth Shack eas...@earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~eashack
> Busy. Got coffee?
If you do as I did and get one of the small cheapo ones on a wood not metal
base, it will be light enough to put easily behind a piece of furniture when
not in use, and light enough just to prop up rather than have a stand,
because it won't break your foot if it falls.
But they aren't as durable and I think they stain more. However, at about a
fifth the price of metal one in the same size, I think I can live with that
for the moment.
Chris Johnson
Graham Woodland <gr...@quilpole.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> But he is still a serious sociopath (if you want to be parlour-
> psychological about it); or a thoroughly evil, poisonous, nihilistic
> bastard who doesn't get the difference between people and things, and
> turns everything he touches into politically expedient nightmares (if
> you want to look at it from the point of view of people in his own
> world).
I love this in a villain. It's rather like Mister Teatime in
Pratchett's "Hogfather". It's all well and good (um, evil) when you have
villains who sincerely mean to conquer X or Y or that all Z are evil
plotters that must be wiped out, but there's a special creepiness from
the kind of person to whom other people are things. I've known some
people who were that way (some types of drug addicts and alcoholics can
think in that way) and it is chilling.
I once thought up a 'Vampire: The Masquerade' character (and I don't
even play the game- no opportunity- but it was fun to read about) who
was invented to meet the challenge, "What if you had a crazy 'Malkavian'
vampire who was not goofy and silly, but instead was just flat-out
scary?". I took the same approach- thought of a fellow who seemed very
nice, but saw other people (and vampires) as things. Innocent
inoffensive introverted fellow, but he could turn quite unthinkingly
from talking to you, to killing you, if he was a bit hungry. Somewhere
inside his head, something just didn't fit, and he was always unhappily
puzzled at the trouble caused by his being, basically, a monster. He'd
be hounded and chased away even by other vampires because he'd bring
unwanted attention on them by indiscriminate killing.
I don't have room for a vamp villain in the planned upcoming writing,
but maybe I'll see whether I can fit somebody like that in somewhere. It
would take the work and twist it in the direction of a police
procedural- which I don't see as a bad thing, necessarily. Just a little
odd, maybe :) sf/fantasy police procedural?
Chris Johnson
Nicola Browne
news:jinx6568-9740CE...@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com
> > I don't have room for a vamp villain in the planned upcoming writing,
> but maybe I'll see whether I can fit somebody like that in somewhere. It
> would take the work and twist it in the direction of a police
> procedural- which I don't see as a bad thing, necessarily. Just a little
> odd, maybe :) sf/fantasy police procedural?
>
I'll let you know - I've just done one a love story/police procedural/
contemporary fantasy for YA: I haven't sold it yet.
Nicky
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Helen
<zeb...@netaccess.co.nz> writes
>
>Are you able to outline after the first draft, and base the revision on
>that? It helps me, a bit, get the idea of the whole thing in my head.
>I rarely outline before the first draft's finished.
>
>Zeborah
This is my more or less my plan for the WIP. In fact, I'm doing the
outline, chapter by chapter, as I write the first draft. As I finish
typing up each chapter, I run it through Word's auto summarise feature.
The result is barely coherent, but it gives me a starting point and by
editing that, I have the next section of the outline.
The plan then is to edit the outline into a short version of the story,
then revise the full MS to match the outline.
Well, that's the plan, I'll let you know in due course whether it works.
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
David Friedman
Chris Johnson <jinx...@sover.net> wrote:
> I took the same approach- thought of a fellow who seemed very
> nice, but saw other people (and vampires) as things.
When I was an undergraduate I had a very interesting argument with a
visiting philosopher. The claim he was defending was that it made as
much sense to describe someone as insane for his moral views as for his
factual views--as opposed to the position I then held, that moral views
were tastes, like preference for chocolate over vanilla.
The example he gave was someone who went around sticking pins in people.
When you ask him why he does it he explains that he enjoys the feeling
of a pin going into a resilient object. You suggest that perhaps he
should use rubber balls to stick them into instead. He thinks that's a
wonderful idea--much less trouble--and from then on sticks the pins into
rubber balls.
The point being that while there is a considerable range within which
value judgements still count as sane, the belief that human pain is
simply irrelevant puts you outside that range.
Joann Zimmerman
eric...@bigpond.blah.com says...
> "Elizabeth Shack" <eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:3e79b865...@news.earthlink.net...
> > Someday I'm going to get a whiteboard. I've never yet had any place
> > to put one.
>
> If you do as I did and get one of the small cheapo ones on a wood not metal
> base, it will be light enough to put easily behind a piece of furniture when
> not in use, and light enough just to prop up rather than have a stand,
> because it won't break your foot if it falls.
>
> But they aren't as durable and I think they stain more. However, at about a
> fifth the price of metal one in the same size, I think I can live with that
> for the moment.
The real problem with whiteboards is that they take up wall space,
something I don't have any of. All my walls are covered either in books
or windows.
(We have a small cheap whiteboard. It's on the side of the refrigerator,
and keeps grocery lists, lists of needed hardware items, and reminders
about various uncommon household tasks. It has a nasty habit of coming
unstuck.)
--
"I never understood people that don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
Joann Zimmerman
dd...@daviddfriedman.com says...
Thanbk heavens I'm not the only one with this problem. Here I have a guy
who's trying to destroy Life as We Know It, and he's fun to talk to while
he's torturing you. Obviously a candidate for Serious Revision. I knew
there was some reason I shouldn't have any scenes with him in it, dang
it.
Lucinda Welenc
>
> In article <j6Dea.4866$dE2....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>,
> eric...@bigpond.blah.com says...
> > "Elizabeth Shack" <eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:3e79b865...@news.earthlink.net...
>
> > > Someday I'm going to get a whiteboard. I've never yet had any place
> > > to put one.
> >
> > If you do as I did and get one of the small cheapo ones on a wood not metal
> > base, it will be light enough to put easily behind a piece of furniture when
> > not in use, and light enough just to prop up rather than have a stand,
> > because it won't break your foot if it falls.
> >
> > But they aren't as durable and I think they stain more. However, at about a
> > fifth the price of metal one in the same size, I think I can live with that
> > for the moment.
>
> The real problem with whiteboards is that they take up wall space,
> something I don't have any of. All my walls are covered either in books
> or windows.
Then you hang it temporarily in front of the books.
--
Alanna
**********
Saying of the day:
When Dogs Crossbreed:
Labrador Retriever + Curly Coated Retriever = Lab Coat Retriever, the
choice of research scientists
Brenda W. Clough
>Joann Zimmerman wrote:
>
>>In article <j6Dea.4866$dE2....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>,
>>eric...@bigpond.blah.com says...
>>
>>>"Elizabeth Shack" <eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>news:3e79b865...@news.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>>>Someday I'm going to get a whiteboard. I've never yet had any place
>>>>to put one.
>>>>
>>>If you do as I did and get one of the small cheapo ones on a wood not metal
>>>base, it will be light enough to put easily behind a piece of furniture when
>>>not in use, and light enough just to prop up rather than have a stand,
>>>because it won't break your foot if it falls.
>>>
>>>But they aren't as durable and I think they stain more. However, at about a
>>>fifth the price of metal one in the same size, I think I can live with that
>>>for the moment.
>>>
>>The real problem with whiteboards is that they take up wall space,
>>something I don't have any of. All my walls are covered either in books
>>or windows.
>>
>
>Then you hang it temporarily in front of the books.
>
I suggest you be sure that your bookcase is firmly attached to the wall,
before hanging a heavy weight off the front of it. (They warn you to do
this in earthquake areas or if you have children anyway.)
My husband found -two- perfectly good whiteboards, 4 x 6 feet, leaning
on the dumpster at the office park he works in. He wisely brought them
home. I have one, and gave the other to the local elementary school.
If you live in an area where there has been a considerable crash in the
dot.com or IT industries, office equipment of this sort may be easily
available second hand, cheap.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.fictionwise.com
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Zeborah
> I have it. ("Structured Procrastination") I'd rather have a method
> that leaves me with more than 3 hours of sleep the night before
> something's due.
You get sleep? :-) Yes, I used to do that a lot. I think my brain
carefully and secretly calculates how much time I really have, and how
much time I really need, for something, and then starts working at the
last second possible that allows completion. And I think I have somehow
over the years convinced it that sleep time is no longer to be included
in "time available".
So when all my report cards are due, I get just enough sleep and still
tend to complete the last one at half a minute before the bell rings for
first class.
But I don't know when or how I convinced my brain of that. Sometime
after my last week of university, in which I pulled two
double-allnighters and swore I'd never go back to university again.
Brian D. Fernald
zeb...@netaccess.co.nz said...
> Suzanne Palmer <spa...@umassp.edu> wrote:
>
> > Remus Shepherd wrote:
> > >
> > > Suzanne Palmer <spa...@umassp.edu> wrote:
> > > > I have no methodology. I have no outlines. I have no clue what I'm
> > > > doing. Some days, I think that means I ought to just give up.
> > >
> > > Oh, Suzanne, we wouldn't be discussing this if we thought we knew what
> > > we were doing. :) Everyone does something different, as this thread has
> > > proven. If it works for you that's terrific!
> >
> > It works for first drafts, and it works for short stories. But for big
> > revision, it sucks the farm down to the last piglet.
>
> Are you able to outline after the first draft, and base the revision on
> that? It helps me, a bit, get the idea of the whole thing in my head.
> I rarely outline before the first draft's finished.
Here is a difference between you and me, I can't finish the first draft
without the outline. The story goes off in too many directions, loses
focus. I become interested in a thing, examine it for awhile, grow
bored with it, and find another thing to examine. Outlines, are for
me, a discipline tool.
--
BDF.
FSOBN.
Brian D. Fernald
jz...@bellereti.com said...
> In article <j6Dea.4866$dE2....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>,
> eric...@bigpond.blah.com says...
> > "Elizabeth Shack" <eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:3e79b865...@news.earthlink.net...
>
> > > Someday I'm going to get a whiteboard. I've never yet had any place
> > > to put one.
> >
> > If you do as I did and get one of the small cheapo ones on a wood not metal
> > base, it will be light enough to put easily behind a piece of furniture when
> > not in use, and light enough just to prop up rather than have a stand,
> > because it won't break your foot if it falls.
> >
> > But they aren't as durable and I think they stain more. However, at about a
> > fifth the price of metal one in the same size, I think I can live with that
> > for the moment.
>
> The real problem with whiteboards is that they take up wall space,
> something I don't have any of. All my walls are covered either in books
> or windows.
>
If you have windows or mirrors, you could always use the Good Will
Hunting method and use them as a writing surface.
In my perfect world, one day I'll have a whiteboard with OCR built in.
--
BDF.
FSOBN.
silvasurfa
"Lucinda Welenc" <lwe...@cablespeed.com> wrote in
> > The real problem with whiteboards is that they take up wall space,
> > something I don't have any of. All my walls are covered either in books
> > or windows.
>
> Then you hang it temporarily in front of the books.
>
> --
> Alanna
> **********
And work out how to slide it behind a bookshelf when not in use.
Joann Zimmerman
> Lucinda Welenc wrote:
>
> >Joann Zimmerman wrote:
> >>>
> >>The real problem with whiteboards is that they take up wall space,
> >>something I don't have any of. All my walls are covered either in books
> >>or windows.
> >Then you hang it temporarily in front of the books.
> I suggest you be sure that your bookcase is firmly attached to the wall,
> before hanging a heavy weight off the front of it. (They warn you to do
> this in earthquake areas or if you have children anyway.)
In which case I'm scrod [*] as three of the four bookcases form the
division between my study and the living room proper. Freestanders all.
The exception is behind me and contains the reference books.
Note that when we did live in earthquake country we had the same
arrangement in the spare bedroom, neatly dividing it in half.
> My husband found -two- perfectly good whiteboards, 4 x 6 feet, leaning
> on the dumpster at the office park he works in. He wisely brought them
> home. I have one, and gave the other to the local elementary school.
> If you live in an area where there has been a considerable crash in the
> dot.com or IT industries, office equipment of this sort may be easily
> available second hand, cheap.
Nobody knows the crashes we've seen here in Austin ...
[*] past pluperfect of screwed
Heather Jones
Doors. Whiteboards work very nicely attached to the backs of
doors. That's the normal position for them in offices in my
department (where they are habitually covered with things like
tree-diagrams of ambiguous syntax, or complete paradigms for the
verb "to hunt snakes" in Iklonga, or competing versions of
pre-nasalization rules in Qanaqan).**
Heather
**all language names have been changed to protect the innocent
--
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
Boudewijn Rempt
> Doors. Whiteboards work very nicely attached to the backs of
> doors. That's the normal position for them in offices in my
> department (where they are habitually covered with things like
> tree-diagrams of ambiguous syntax, or complete paradigms for the
> verb "to hunt snakes" in Iklonga, or competing versions of
> pre-nasalization rules in Qanaqan).**
I want to work there!
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Alter S. Reiss
"Brenda W. Clough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3E77B7BD...@erols.com...> > > [circular diagrams, pie charts, outlines, and spreadsheets all
> >
> >>snipped]
> >>
> >>You're all making me feel so bad )-:
> >>
> >>I have no idea how I plot. I have no idea how I write. I >
> >>I have no methodology. I have no outlines. I have no clue what I'm
> >>doing.
> >>
> >
> In fact you do not need all that stuff. All you need is a nose for
> quality. You write it and you smell it. It does not smell good!
> Change it, at random if necessary, until it is good. Repeat until it's
> done.
When I try that, I wind up with a tasty bowl of Fruit Loops. Part of a
balanced breakfast, yes -- good writing, no.
R. L.
<dd...@daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
>In article <jinx6568-9740CE...@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com>,
> Chris Johnson <jinx...@sover.net> wrote:
>
>> I took the same approach- thought of a fellow who seemed very
>> nice, but saw other people (and vampires) as things.
>
>When I was an undergraduate I had a very interesting argument with a
>visiting philosopher. The claim he was defending was that it made as
>much sense to describe someone as insane for his moral views as for his
>factual views--as opposed to the position I then held, that moral views
>were tastes, like preference for chocolate over vanilla.
There's a very good readable treatment of this whole question in C. S.
Lewis's _Men Without Chests_, republished as _The Abolition of Man_.
The book is much more readable than the titles!
R. L.
R. L.
<jz...@bellereti.com> wrote:
>In article <ddfr-B3E651.2...@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
>dd...@daviddfriedman.com says...
>> In article <5t1l7v0qgfaf2ef36...@4ax.com>,
>> R. L. <zzzm...@zzsoniczzz.zznetsss> wrote:
No, nothing from R.L. quoted here.
/snip/
>> My experience was that once I focussed on my villains, they stopped
>> being villains, even if they remained antagonists. I have one major
>> villain remaining (not focussed on), and if I eventually go through with
>> the idea of giving him a book of his own I am confident he will stop
>> being a villain and become someone who was doing bad things for at least
>> moderately plausible good reasons.
>
>Thanbk heavens I'm not the only one with this problem. Here I have a guy
>who's trying to destroy Life as We Know It, and he's fun to talk to while
>he's torturing you. Obviously a candidate for Serious Revision. I knew
>there was some reason I shouldn't have any scenes with him in it, dang
>it.
My problem is that if I think about why he was doing it -- some
believable reason other than sadism, revenge, etc -- I start thinking
of ways the whole big confict could be solved by negotiation....
R.L.
S. Palmer
>
> On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:56:08 -0500, Suzanne Palmer <spa...@umassp.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >I dunno, but I did learn (eventually) not to make anything bigger than
> >the door to my workshop.
>
> You don't have a saw?
Shame to wreck a perfectly good doorway. Latest @!&@! "masterpiece"
disassembles; makes the 10 foot wingspan much more manageable.
-Suzanne
--
"And I realized, too, that war's a sadistic killer of
human beings, young and old, men and women alike."
- Masuji Ibuse, "Black Rain"
Elizabeth Shack
<zzzm...@zzsoniczzz.zznetsss> wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 23:42:51 GMT, eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net
>(Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
>/snip/
>
>>The new rapidly expanding outline includes a character Veril (anagram
>>of the name of someone I detest, minus a letter), and Veril's two
>>sons, Osov and Ysov.
>>
>>Someday they will get real names.
>
>I do that kind of thing all the time. Some stories go nearly to final
>draft with characters named Middlesister and Badprince etc.
Whenever I have an unnamed character and I write "Name" or even "N", I
think of the character in the WiR who was called that for half the
book - past the point where I'd killed him off.
>I still get stuck whenever I have to focus my imagination on the
>villains, even if it's happening off-stage. Hm, maybe
>outlining/synopsis could help with that. Instead of tryiing to imagine
>myself in the villian's place to find out what he would do and write
>it all at once (as I often do with good guys), maybe I should just in
>cold blood theory figure out what he would probably do and write it
>down as a detailed outline, and then later just turn it into decent
>prose, unless it belongs off-stage anyway.
Seems like a reasonable idea.
>>Unfortunately it seems to want to be in four different people's POV
>>and I don't like that idea. (partly because I'm not sure I can do it,
>>partly because I like books with only one POV char.) I'll worry about
>>that after I know the whole plot.
>
>Yes. You could even write part of the rough draft in the four
>different people's POV and then change it later if you didn't like it.
>At least you'd have the events down in enough detail.
The problem is the four characters are around for different scenes.
Some can probably be summarized in other scenes, but some are key to
the plot. We'll see. I get to start writing soon.
Elizabeth Shack
wrote:
>Elizabeth Shack <eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> I have it. ("Structured Procrastination") I'd rather have a method
>> that leaves me with more than 3 hours of sleep the night before
>> something's due.
>
>You get sleep? :-)
As I am rapidly approaching whatever age comes between "young" and
"middle", I can no longer pull all-nighters. If left to my own
devices, I sleep 9.5 - 10 hours a night. Else I drink lots of coffee.
>Yes, I used to do that a lot. I think my brain
>carefully and secretly calculates how much time I really have, and how
>much time I really need, for something, and then starts working at the
>last second possible that allows completion. And I think I have somehow
>over the years convinced it that sleep time is no longer to be included
>in "time available".
I think mine does that too - the problem is it got used to not needing
sleep. Now it does, but it leaves that out of the calculation.
Oh look, it's midnight. Lovely.
Nicola Browne
> On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 05:25:32 GMT, zeb...@netaccess.co.nz (Zeborah)
> wrote:
>
> >Elizabeth Shack <eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> snip> >Yes, I used to do that a lot. I think my brain
> >carefully and secretly calculates how much time I really have, and how
> >much time I really need, for something, and then starts working at the
> >last second possible that allows completion. And I think I have somehow
> >over the years convinced it that sleep time is no longer to be included
> >in "time available".
>
My brain used to do the same thing - up until I had kids.I didn't
have an unbroken nights sleep for around ten years.
I don't think I've ever completely recovered. I seem to get
knackered quite easliy so nowadays I can't work like that and though
I still take everything up to the wire I have to factor in sleep : )
R. L.
(Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
>On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 05:23:19 GMT, R. L.
><zzzm...@zzsoniczzz.zznetsss> wrote:
/snip/
>>I still get stuck whenever I have to focus my imagination on the
>>villains, even if it's happening off-stage. Hm, maybe
>>outlining/synopsis could help with that. Instead of tryiing to imagine
>>myself in the villian's place to find out what he would do and write
>>it all at once (as I often do with good guys), maybe I should just in
>>cold blood theory figure out what he would probably do and write it
>>down as a detailed outline, and then later just turn it into decent
>>prose, unless it belongs off-stage anyway.
>
>Seems like a reasonable idea.
I'm surprised you understood it, the paragraph sounded quite muddled
to me when I re-read it just now. Hm, maybe I need to learn more omni.
I ought to be able to write a scene with the villian as the only
character, showing his actions and even decisions without me having
to ride along inside him feeling his feelings, as often I do with a
good guy.
>>>Unfortunately it seems to want to be in four different people's POV
>>>and I don't like that idea. (partly because I'm not sure I can do it,
>>>partly because I like books with only one POV char.) I'll worry about
>>>that after I know the whole plot.
Right. Many people would say, do what the story seems to want,
regardless. Maybe you'll learn to do it as you do the rewrite.
As for not liking to read books like that -- I wonder how many people
do write exactly the same sort of thing they like to read? I like to
read things like Jonthan seems to be describing: low conflict, nice
people exploring an interesting world. But I can't write that kind. My
muse keeps putting action and conflict into most scenes, almost
Bickhamish. So I keep working on action frames for the sort of wild
images I'm really interested in.
R. L.
<bfer...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>In article <1fs3jso.l6kcgoe2ad7jN%zeb...@netaccess.co.nz>,
>zeb...@netaccess.co.nz said...
/snip/
>> Are you able to outline after the first draft, and base the revision on
>> that? It helps me, a bit, get the idea of the whole thing in my head.
>> I rarely outline before the first draft's finished.
>
>Here is a difference between you and me, I can't finish the first draft
>without the outline. The story goes off in too many directions, loses
>focus.
Me too. Except that "too many directions, loses focus" could also
describe Dickens or someone, who is putting out lots of good rolicking
readable unfocused novels.
> I become interested in a thing, examine it for awhile, grow
>bored with it, and find another thing to examine. Outlines, are for
>me, a discipline tool.
I don't think of it as discipliine, but as a rim round the billiard
table or a dome over the moon colony.
R.L.
Geoff Wedig
> "Elizabeth Shack" <eas...@nomaps.earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:3e73db35...@news.earthlink.net...
>>
>> 4. Work backwards from the end: There are at least three possible
>> endings and I don't really like any of them. But this seems to have
>> at least some possibilities. (If the ending is that K & D decide H is
>> in the right, then they must have met him at least once.)
>> Elizabeth
>>
> One technique I use for shorts is I take a piece of A4 paper, I write a one
> very short summary of the bit of the ending that is the "payoff" to the
> reader for having read, above that I write in very small letter the
> components that are necessary for the payoff to happen, then I draw lines
> with arrows upwards to about where I instinctually feel those components
> should be introduced/foreshadowed/dealt with. This gives me a possible
> "shape" of the story, and often the plot just flows from there with a few
> changes.
> I do something similar but with several columns on a whiteboard for the
> frequent novel attempts that I never finish. Takes about 2 hours for a
> short, 6 weeks for a novel, working about an hour each night. There's more
> linking and weaving of story components for a novel, hence the whiteboard
> for frequent alterations.
Could you give an example of this approach? It sounds intriguing but I'm
afraid I'm just not getting it.
Geoff