Deadly de Thouars
Steve Gartin
There was a "golden era" in martial arts here in Colorado. In a by-
gone time, not so long ago, the de Thouars Brothers were united in
spirit and intent. Martial artists of high calibre surrounded them,
anxious for enlightenment. In those days we had the wonderful benefit
of Paul, Willem and Victor united as a Family to teach their martial
heritage to America. Those of us present in those days have had the
grace to share training with all the Brothers. Some of us still view
the Brothers as one unit; despite the petty bickering.
Although Willem has always been my teacher, Paul and Victor have shared
so much with me that I could not begin to deny their influence on me
and my art. Those are cherished memories that I will always treasure.
The time Randall Goodwin and I lived with Brother Victor was an
experience that cannot be easily explained. Living with a master is a
life-changing experience! Thank you Brother Victor!
My love for Paul as a Christian Brother grew deeper everytime I was
graced with the opportunity to be with him; which in those days was a
lot.
My heart aches to see how the Brothers have been set at odds with each
other. I observe the same weasely, backbiting vermin like
Gitlin/Torres/Worden in all three camps vying for supremacy and casting
outright lies at honorable people to serve their nefarious ends.
Must be money in martial arts or it would not elicit such predictable
responses from the scum of martial arts world. Forget all the rhetoric
and watch the money . . . assuming, of course, that truth interests
you. Why in the world would all this mud be flung?
My take on this entire issue of "certification" is that the de Thouars
Brothers OFFERED certification, none was sought, by anyone I know
(the "old group") that is. The Brothers must have felt it important to
certify that we were getting the real deal. Then came Gitlin and
Torres and BEGGED for certification. Willem laughingly provided them
with "plum blossoms' and "gold fringes" to make them appear as goofy as
they are. Nothing to do with talent - jest money. IMVHO Torres is a
fairly competent martial artist, Gitlin is an absolute joke; like
Sanders. PlayCertificates for money are a different animal from
certification that one has learned the real art.
In those olden days (1976-1982) the Brothers were concerned that their
art NOT look like TKD when the students of the students perform. I
believe that was the original thought behind the certifications. All
of us were already martial artists when we met the de Thouars Brothers;
they did not want us teaching Kempo and calling it KunTao, like you see
in some books and videos today. So much for truth.
For Truth, you will have to speak with the Brothers DIRECTLY. Anyone
SO foolish as to believe a "spokesperson" explaining a de Thouars mind
deserves the confusion they receive. All of this dialog could have
been focused with ONE call to Paul. No need for speculation.
And ultimately, my two cents: From my observation, arriving in 1976,
George Morin and Phillip Sailas began with Willem a week before I did.
Wayne Welsh and Earl Alston were already training with Willem, but
retaining their own systems. Phillip, George and I began the KunTao
Silat training that is today known as KunTao Silat de Thouars. A
couple of years later, I met Randall Goodwin and invited him in.
Randall introduced us to Chas Clements who immediately provided
commercial space for classes. Randall also brought with him Chuck
Stahman, John Garcia and Dave Anderson. As a group, with all THREE
Brothers and U.Un Surya, (Bill Chang) we heavily promoted kuntao and
silat for many years; did demonstrations at many local events and
opened two schools; both of which ultimately died. It was not time,
then.
Now it IS time. KunTao Silat is beginning to receive the notice it is
due and the usual vermin, slander and libelist opportunists
(Gitlin/Torres/Worden/Brockman) leap into the fray for the MONEY.
Surprised? me? Well, yea and nea. Brockman was my first student, I'm
saddened to see what a spineless little ass-biting inept weasel he has
become. Perhaps he sees some economic advantage. I'm sure they all do.
BottomLine: WAY BACK in 1978 Chas and I and several others agreed to
promote and support the Brothers. Today - Chas and I appear to be the
only ones remaining of that original group who still continue to
promote and support the Brothers. I can't speak for Chas, but
personally, I find the sniping and back-biting absolutely disgusting.
ALL the Brothers are treasures, both individually and enmasse. Anyone
who doesn't think that little brother Victor is not a master should
leap right on up and FEEL the little brother's iron hand, or shins or
whatever. Man, Victor is for real. People who make fun of Paul's
belly have never FELT the power, precision and timing that the old
timer makes look almost accidental. And anyone who doesn't think
Willem practices has not attended a 3AM class with him.
People can talk, but now these three Brothers are doing seminars ALL
OVER. Place all the hype, slander and libel on the "reserved for
later" list and GO SEE these guys. Form your own opinion.
My fondest and warmest thoughts and wishes are always focused on ALL
three of the Brothers; each has contributed to my life in priceless
ways and each has a great deal to offer any SERIOUS martial artist;
wimps need not apply. Although they do treat wimps kindly as indicated
by Gitlin/Brockman.
As for Chas. He was a hellraiser eager for combat when I first met him
a couple of decades ago. He is a very competent observer and has been
CAREFULLY and judiciously studying the Brothers for a long time and
picking up the plethora of technique that rolls off the de Thouars like
a flood. I have literally hundreds of hours of the Brothers in action
on video tape and Chas has studied most of it. I would be surprised if
any one has studied SO many hours of de Thouars footage, besides
myself, of course. So, the easy answer about Chas is that you can ring
him up and find him EAGER to show you some technical analysis,
personally. He has been that way all the time I've known him. Chas
don't do much jogging; so all you really have to do is not creep up on
him and make him nervous. He won't bother to run you down like some of
the rest of us; jest don't be getting up in his face unless you truly
want to see what a "fighting man" looks like up close and personal.
Personally, too much trouble for me, I prefer Chas as a friend as I do
all the truly "dangerous" men I know.
As I see it; and this is conditioned with the manner in which I have
chosen to live my life OUTSIDE the democracy, Chas is still doing what
he agreed to 20 years ago - promote the de Thouars Brothers. Now,
obviously, there is no hope of remuneration - so I'm not really sure
WHY he does it; other than that he told them he would.
I've noticed that people here are knowledgeable of the early Full
Contact articles; those were written by me. I have been on the INSIDE
as a Family Member for many years and I will tell you without
hesitation that the de Thouars Brothers will provide some form of
martial enlightenment for virtually any serious martial artist. Forget
the rhetoric - go see the Brothers.
Praise Yahweh for the grace of my Friends and Family.
Steve Gartin (Currently outcast by Willem for Politically Incorrect
thinking)
Guru Tuan - KunTao Silat de Thouars
Founder: Malabar KunTao Silat
Founder: American KunTao Silat
--
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/8847/in
dex.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
bob_o...@my-deja.com
>
> . . . they did not want us teaching Kempo and calling it
> KunTao, like you see in some books and videos today.
>
> Steve Gartin (Currently outcast by Willem for Politically Incorrect
> thinking)
> Guru Tuan - KunTao Silat de Thouars
> Founder: Malabar KunTao Silat
> Founder: American KunTao Silat
>
Since we're intimating that my book and video ("Indonesian Fighting
Fundamantals: The Brutal Arts of the Archipelago" and "Fighting Arts
of Indonesia: Combat Secrets of Silat and Kuntao"), teach kempo under
the guise of "kuntao," I think some clarification is in order.
Both the book and video repeatedly claim only to teach fighting
"principles" from kuntao and silat. Even if you don't read the text,
the titles make that abundantly clear. In fact, the title I
originally submitted for the book was "Principles from the
Archipelago." The publisher, however, felt that it was too generic.
He argued that it did not convey, for example, the fact that it was a
book about martial arts. He was correct. So we mutually agreed on
"Indonesian Fighting Fundamentals." How much clearer does it have to
get? Unable to author, publish, and produce their own works,
naysayers can always be called on to disparage the efforts of others.
Don't tell me what you don't like about my works unless you've put in
the time and effort to produce a better work yourself. Put up or shup
up.
As far as it looking like kempo: I personally don't give a rip what
it looks like as long as the reader or viewer grasps the principles I
am trying to reveal. My goal has never been to dress Indonesian, eat
Indonesian, or speak Indonesian, in order to move like or look
Indonesian. What folly! My goal has always been to fully understand
and fully apply in my own art the extremely potent fighting principles
found in Indo-Chinese fighting arts, and I will gladly demonstrate my
proficiency in that area on any who wish to step up to the plate.
(After that, you can look up at my teaching certificate from Willem.)
You can find the location of our school at my website
http://www.orlandokuntao.com.
Bob Orlando
--
Bob.O...@bigfoot.com http://www.orlandokuntao.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
A warrior may choose pacifism. Others are condemned to it.
--Martial Arts America (1998,8)
WSears801
>From: bob_o...@my-deja.com
>Date: Mon, 05 July 1999 05:43 PM EDT
>Message-id: <7lr8t2$soa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
Bob, everyone knows that Gartin dude is a Kook. He is Mr. Blah, Blah, Blah.
He fantisizes about THE GOLDEN ERA.
The man has to GROW up. The news on the deThouars is that they are all fakes.
They blab about being the best in the universe and so no wonder they end up
like drunks in a bar, fighting each other.
Chas
> Bob, everyone knows that Gartin dude is a Kook. He is Mr. Blah, Blah, Blah.
>
> He fantisizes about THE GOLDEN ERA.
>
> The man has to GROW up. The news on the deThouars is that they are all fakes.
> They blab about being the best in the universe and so no wonder they end up
> like drunks in a bar, fighting each other.
Drewl??
Is that you???
Go troll your mama-
Chas
Talio123
>fairly competent martial artist, ......
Thanks for the kind words Steve, they are greatly appreciated.
Salam Hormat,
Roberto Torres
Pencak Silat Perisai Setia (Harimau Sikap Baru)
"Iron Sharpens Iron, So One Man Sharpens Another." Proverbs 27:17
Hormat,
Roberto Torres
Pencak Silat Perisai Setia
Talio Self Defense Academy
"Iron Sharpens Iron, So One Man Sharpens Another." Prov. 27:17
brockmn
When was the last time you saw little "Eggroll"? or Elijah Rock, who
used to be able to stand in the palm of your steady hand. When was the last
time you sent them a child support check? Do you have job now? I heard Tammy
got remarried and seems to be quite happy. I heard her sing at a church
fundraiser my mother dragged me to and she can still belt'em out like Linda
Rondstadt!
Just for the benefit of the RMA readers who have followed your rants in
the past , that fundraiser was the first time in twenty years I had been in
Steves former Lutheran /Masonic/hammurabbic
/illuminati/trilatteralist/council on foreign relations church, seems they
ex-communicated me after I forgot to go after two decades. I've got two
Buddha's and Kuan Yin in my Garden which Steve has seen, and twenty more
Buddahs and a big Lao Tzu in my Basement which he hasn't. Not to mention my
spirit guide Kachinas, my Shiva and Kali bronzes my complete set of the
works of Joseph Campbell and my original Star wars action figures.
I am in fact an inept fool. I have spent tons of money building Uncle a
website and (oops) nobody has sent me a check! Can some one there tell me
how to fix that. And yesterday my weed whacker broke its string and weed
whacked me right in the shin (ouch!)
Go to www.kuntaosilatdethoaurs.com and you will the result of the hard
work many individuals who love Uncle and are not out for any for themselves
nor are they out to flaunt self given titles.
Go to http://www.geocites.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/8847/in and you will
find " oops we could not find your page"
Email me at bro...@gateway.net if you want to track down a knife at
29% off retail. I also carry web gear , Mag lights , camp stove and lamps,
case lots of mountain house freeze dried foods , large and small PVC and
plastic storage containers, water purifiers, air purifiers and herbal
supplements including some real cool shark liver oil.
Any body with idea on how I steal more money from Uncle or weasel
certificates from him while looking like Barney Fife trying dance for the
Bolshoi please come find me at the family gathering , I be the one wearing
the red t-shirt the says
"sycophant asshole"
Steve Gartin wrote in message <7lqi0k$ljq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Chas
> Sanguine Steve,
> When was the last time you saw little "Eggroll"? or Elijah Rock, who
> used to be able to stand in the palm of your steady hand. When was the last
> time you sent them a child support check? Do you have job now? I heard Tammy
> got remarried and seems to be quite happy. I heard her sing at a church
> fundraiser my mother dragged me to and she can still belt'em out like Linda
> Rondstadt!
Do you still live with your Mommy? Did she find the collection of Iron
Man underneath your bed? Have the hallucinogens worn off yet?
Any more stupid and insulting questions, Roger?
I am ashamed that you would ask such things, given your knowledge of
Steve- his longest student- you should be ashamed of yourself.
> Just for the benefit of the RMA readers who have followed your rants in
> the past , that fundraiser was the first time in twenty years I had been in
> Steves former Lutheran /Masonic/hammurabbic
> /illuminati/trilatteralist/council on foreign relations church, seems they
> ex-communicated me after I forgot to go after two decades.
You lined up with them, Roger- in the previous paragraph would be the
latest instance.
Bad form, dude-
> I've got two
> Buddha's and Kuan Yin in my Garden which Steve has seen, and twenty more
> Buddahs and a big Lao Tzu in my Basement which he hasn't. Not to mention my
> spirit guide Kachinas, my Shiva and Kali bronzes my complete set of the
> works of Joseph Campbell and my original Star wars action figures.
Does that mean that you got rid of the chicken, the alien shrine and the
big bowl of matzoh?
> I am in fact an inept fool. I have spent tons of money building Uncle a
> website and (oops) nobody has sent me a check! Can some one there tell me
> how to fix that. And yesterday my weed whacker broke its string and weed
> whacked me right in the shin (ouch!)
heh.
> Go to www.kuntaosilatdethoaurs.com and you will the result of the hard
> work many individuals who love Uncle and are not out for any for themselves
> nor are they out to flaunt self given titles.
Uh huh-
Gartin spent *thousands*; many, many *thousands*- and years, decades of
years-
you've got nothing that compares to it-
> Go to http://www.geocites.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/8847/in and you will
> find " oops we could not find your page"
What? One link out of tens of them doesn't work?
Hell, my pictures don't load either- no big deal-
> Email me at bro...@gateway.net if you want to track down a knife at
> 29% off retail. I also carry web gear , Mag lights , camp stove and lamps,
> case lots of mountain house freeze dried foods , large and small PVC and
> plastic storage containers, water purifiers, air purifiers and herbal
> supplements including some real cool shark liver oil.
You're not one of them crazy survivalist militia nuts are you? PVC,
indeed-
> Any body with idea on how I steal more money from Uncle or weasel
> certificates from him while looking like Barney Fife trying dance for the
> Bolshoi please come find me at the family gathering , I be the one wearing
> the red t-shirt the says
> "sycophant asshole"
Don't use the six point type next time-
Chas
go...@hi.com
>begin 644 Happy99.exe
this is a virus. why you posting it?
anyone interested about this virus see url:
http://www.datafellows.com/v-descs/ska.htm
Eric Berge
Technically, it's a worm, and he probably doesn't know he's posting it
since the characteristic behavior of Happy99 is that it attaches itself
to usenet postings.
Eric Berge
brockmn
of the English language. You put S.J. Perleman to shame with your precise
dissection of subject and verb in the subtle and spare art of satire and
wit, why hasn't the New Yorker knocked down your door? I'm looking forward
to your book on Indonesian fighting fundamentals for the over seventy
percent body fat crowd.
I prefer Superman, I have this thing for Lois Lane.
Praise Gene Roddenberry , the everliving,ever syndicated great bird of
the galaxy.
Chas wrote in message <3783F0AB...@home.com>...
>brockmn wrote:
>> Sanguine Steve,
>> When was the last time you saw little "Eggroll"? or Elijah Rock, who
>> used to be able to stand in the palm of your steady hand. When was the
last
>> time you sent them a child support check? Do you have job now? I heard
Tammy
>> got remarried and seems to be quite happy. I heard her sing at a church
>> fundraiser my mother dragged me to and she can still belt'em out like
Linda
>> Rondstadt!
>
>Do you still live with your Mommy? Did she find the collection of Iron
>Man underneath your bed? Have the hallucinogens worn off yet?
>Any more stupid and insulting questions, Roger?
>I am ashamed that you would ask such things, given your knowledge of
>Steve- his longest student- you should be ashamed of yourself.
>
>> Just for the benefit of the RMA readers who have followed your rants
in
>> the past , that fundraiser was the first time in twenty years I had been
in
>> Steves former Lutheran /Masonic/hammurabbic
>> /illuminati/trilatteralist/council on foreign relations church, seems
they
>> ex-communicated me after I forgot to go after two decades.
>
>You lined up with them, Roger- in the previous paragraph would be the
>latest instance.
>Bad form, dude-
>
>> I've got two
>> Buddha's and Kuan Yin in my Garden which Steve has seen, and twenty more
>> Buddahs and a big Lao Tzu in my Basement which he hasn't. Not to mention
my
>> spirit guide Kachinas, my Shiva and Kali bronzes my complete set of the
>> works of Joseph Campbell and my original Star wars action figures.
>
>Does that mean that you got rid of the chicken, the alien shrine and the
>big bowl of matzoh?
>
>> I am in fact an inept fool. I have spent tons of money building Uncle
a
>> website and (oops) nobody has sent me a check! Can some one there tell me
>> how to fix that. And yesterday my weed whacker broke its string and weed
>> whacked me right in the shin (ouch!)
>
>heh.
>
>> Go to www.kuntaosilatdethoaurs.com and you will the result of the
hard
>> work many individuals who love Uncle and are not out for any for
themselves
>> nor are they out to flaunt self given titles.
>
>Uh huh-
>Gartin spent *thousands*; many, many *thousands*- and years, decades of
>years-
>you've got nothing that compares to it-
>
>> Go to http://www.geocites.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/8847/in and you will
>> find " oops we could not find your page"
>
>What? One link out of tens of them doesn't work?
>Hell, my pictures don't load either- no big deal-
>
>> Email me at bro...@gateway.net if you want to track down a knife at
>> 29% off retail. I also carry web gear , Mag lights , camp stove and
lamps,
>> case lots of mountain house freeze dried foods , large and small PVC and
>> plastic storage containers, water purifiers, air purifiers and herbal
>> supplements including some real cool shark liver oil.
>
>You're not one of them crazy survivalist militia nuts are you? PVC,
>indeed-
>
>> Any body with idea on how I steal more money from Uncle or weasel
>> certificates from him while looking like Barney Fife trying dance for
the
>> Bolshoi please come find me at the family gathering , I be the one
wearing
>> the red t-shirt the says
>> "sycophant asshole"
>
Kevin
> Ah yes. Chas the eloquent , Chas the prosaic, Chas the masterful
> craftsman of the English language.
You say this like it's a bad thing. I'm curious, is this
jealousy or simple idiocy?
> You put S.J. Perleman to shame
> with your precise dissection of subject and verb in the subtle and
> spare art of satire and wit, why hasn't the New Yorker knocked down
> your door? I'm looking forward to your book on Indonesian fighting
> fundamentals for the over seventy percent body fat crowd.
Shit, so am I. So Chas? Sounds like a bloody useful
book to me, moreso I'd say than "Effective fighting methods
for body nazi's who don't really need them", or "How
to win fights with midgits when you are an 8'2" bodybuilder".
Let's face it, I ain't taking up Capoiera anytime soon. <g>
Anyway, Sir Brockman, without knowing you I can't help but
draw conclusions about you from your posts: lame insults
to your former teacher? Mouthing off with no intent to
back it up to someone who is constantly publishing an
address and offering to back up their comments? I dunno,
it ain't as if you are coming across as brave, intelligent
OR funny. I'd quit while I was....well anyway, if I was
you I'd quit.
:o)
Kevin
Chas
> Ah yes. Chas the eloquent , Chas the prosaic, Chas the masterful craftsman
> dissection of subject and verb in the subtle and spare art of satire and
> wit, why hasn't the New Yorker knocked down your door? I'm looking forward
> to your book on Indonesian fighting fundamentals for the over seventy
> percent body fat crowd.
> Praise Gene Roddenberry , the everliving,ever syndicated great bird of
> the galaxy.
What?
Check your meds, Rog- you're losing it. Stream of consciousness lunacy
went out with Durrell.
That last post and this one don't make even the modicum of sense that
you're usually unknown for.
The 'seventy percent body fat crowd' book is second. First, I'm writing
a book for pasty faced, acne challenged, bald headed white boys with
delusions of adequacy- I'll make you a gift of it.
Sideways-
and open-
Chas
tel...@cs.pdx.edu
Well, the Silat crowd may not be the best at keeping its dirty laundry
private. And it may not enjoy the most consistent behaviour by its
senior exponenets. But by G-d we have the best invective around :-)
Chas
> Well, the Silat crowd may not be the best at keeping its dirty laundry
> private. And it may not enjoy the most consistent behaviour by its
> senior exponenets. But by G-d we have the best invective around :-)
<GG>
Are we having **too** much !fun! or what??
It's all that 'village' thing- everybody knows everybody elses'
business.
The silat community is still small enough that all the gossip gets
around, the little tatty squabbles are known to all- it's like living in
a small town.
All the silat in the US and most in Europe would boil down to eight or
ten lineages and a few hundred practitioners (an understood generality)-
I know things about guys all over the world <g>
I am put in mind of the old saying; "Me and my brother against my
cousin- and me and my cousin against the world" Silat players are highly
competitive and highly aggressive- even moreso when we're not fighting
amongst ourselves, but other directed.
It's fun, keeps you sharp and sudden-
Chas
Bill
wrote:
> I prefer Superman,
I don't think he goes that direction....RuPaul might not turn you down
though ;-)
Bill
Chas
> "brockmn" <bro...@gateway.net> wrote:
>
> > I prefer Superman,
>
> I don't think he goes that direction....RuPaul might not turn you down
> though ;-)
Lonely; very,
very very......
lonely
Chas
Steve Gartin
Actually, we were talking about William Sanders and P. Greg Alland and
the bunch BEFORE Bob Orlando got involved with Uncle Bill. Bob did
bring up a few interesting points that I'll address in greater detail
when leisure permits.
In article <19990706092633...@ng-cs1.aol.com>,
wsea...@aol.com (WSears801) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Deadly de Thouars
> >From: bob_o...@my-deja.com
> >Date: Mon, 05 July 1999 05:43 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <7lr8t2$soa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
> >
> >In article <7lqi0k$ljq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Steve Gartin <steve...@geocities.com> wrote:
> >> Good day all! Greetings from Colorado.
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> . . . they did not want us teaching Kempo and calling it
> >> KunTao, like you see in some books and videos today.
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> Steve Gartin (Currently outcast by Willem for Politically Incorrect
> >> thinking)
> >> Guru Tuan - KunTao Silat de Thouars
> >> Founder: Malabar KunTao Silat
> >> Founder: American KunTao Silat
> >>
> >
Steve
--
http://www.nettaxi.com/citizens/gartin/index.html
Steve Gartin
In article <7lr8t2$soa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
bob_o...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Since we're intimating that my book and video ("Indonesian Fighting
> Fundamantals: The Brutal Arts of the Archipelago" and "Fighting Arts
> of Indonesia: Combat Secrets of Silat and Kuntao"), teach kempo under
> the guise of "kuntao," I think some clarification is in order.
No, I was STATING, as a FACT, that the de Thouars Brothers were
concerned that "Profiteers" would ADD SILAT and KUNTAO to their
cirriculum without bothering to adhere to well-established standards.
These are BOTH very unique arts that REALLY don't look like anything
I've ever seen before or since meeting the de Thouars Brothers back in
the Seventies.
During those years that I have known the de Thouars Brothers, there
have been SEVERAL efforts to "aid in American understanding" by
TEACHING KEMPO BASICS brought into our group from an inter-related
association. The de Thouars Brothers have always maintained that they
HAVE their OWN basics that most folks are just TOO LAZY to LEARN.
This is the VERY REASON that I designed Malabar KunTao Silat ONLY from
the BASICS I learned from the de Thouars Brothers; mostly Willem. That
was the FIRST time I got kicked out for opposing the Gitlin/Torres
hostile take-over of the "association."
The second time I got kicked out for opposing Clinton's War on
Yugoslavia and on patriotic Americans by use of armed troops payed by
FOREIGN interests. To the Malabar Basics, I then added the PaKua
influences, the Knife, and other elements given to me by U. Un Surya
and named the new art American KunTao Silat . . . because that is what
it is - ALL KunTao Silat from the ground up.
My background is TKD, but you won't find any in my current arts. My
first Teacher, Les Kelso, set me on the quest; but kicking at Willem in
the early days was an unbelievably painful experience that it was easy
to give up, especially when Randall Goodwin came along. He LOVED to
kick - and - he loved pain. . . go figure.
>Both the book and video repeatedly claim only to teach fighting
>"principles" from kuntao and silat. Even if you don't read the text,
>the titles make that abundantly clear. In fact, the title I
> originally submitted for the book was "Principles from the
> Archipelago." The publisher, however, felt that it was too generic.
> He argued that it did not convey, for example, the fact that it was a
> book about martial arts. He was correct. So we mutually agreed on
> "Indonesian Fighting Fundamentals." How much clearer does it have to
> get?
Quite to the contrary, I'm not arguing that you are talking fundamental
principles. These arts are VERY deep and wide and I think you did a
good job explaining some of the principles. I think you did very well
in enlisting George Morin's assistance as well; there is a premier
Practitioner! George and Phillip Sailas and I were all weaned from
our 'former' arts at the same time. Matter of fact, we three and Wayne
Welsh are all that remains of the old Combinato Association from the
Seventies.
> Unable to author, publish, and produce their own works,
> naysayers can always be called on to disparage the efforts of others.
Interestingly, we filmed a KunTao Silat Knife Video with Paladin last
year. Since our art was actually conceived here in Colorado, we went up
two miles high to do the filming with Mike Janich - just like we
train. He should be finished with his magic production process soon.
The focus was ONLY on how the knife applies in both arts and only in
basic application; but I think that you will agree that it 'looks'
different.
> Don't tell me what you don't like about my works unless you've put in
> the time and effort to produce a better work yourself. Put up or shup
> up.
My young Brothers and Sisters have access to my writings and many, many
videos on the basics. I do not offer any of myself for sale on video
at present; BUT that is what I'm working on now. I have always
promoted my Teachers; not myself. My problem now is finding a
videographer as good as I am, so I'm endeavoring to solo the first one
or two of this project.
I would submit that virtually ANY of the Uncle Bill's Backyard series
that I single-handedly PRODUCED would reflect a FAR superior glimpse
into KunTao Silat than what I observed in your video. Now, sale-
ability is obviously another issue - people do NOT gravitate to the
real item when a cheap commercial copy is available: no argument. And
no reference to YOUR vid.
> As far as it looking like kempo: I personally don't give a rip what
> it looks like as long as the reader or viewer grasps the principles I
> am trying to reveal. My goal has never been to dress Indonesian, eat
> Indonesian, or speak Indonesian, in order to move like or look
> Indonesian. What folly! My goal has always been to fully understand
> and fully apply in my own art the extremely potent fighting principles
> found in Indo-Chinese fighting arts, and I will gladly demonstrate my
> proficiency in that area on any who wish to step up to the plate.
> (After that, you can look up at my teaching certificate from Willem.)
> You can find the location of our school at my website
> http://www.orlandokuntao.com.
> Bob Orlando
Well Bob, there it is. . . YOUR Art. You have never professed to teach
Willem's Art; I have taught no other. I'm happy that you have learned
some effective techniques to augment your art. I'm not sure if you are
calling me out Bob, but it sort of sounds like it. If so, I have a
modest proposal.
At the Family Gathering, there will be Three Guys that KNOW what KunTao
Silat looks like. I have students from many years, you have students
from many years - we have a KenDanggan. Let the cameras roll! Our
students perform forms and fight, then we perform forms and fight.
The "winners" are declared by the Three Brothers and get the video-
marketing rights.
If you're not calling me out, then . . . forget it.
Realistically, Bob has usually made it a habit to remain free from the
political entanglements that surround our little group and has always
maintained his own 'thing' - which I find admirable. At first, I was
slightly chagrined to see how little he focused on Willem . . . but,
with very little reading, I quickly realized that Bob was focusing on
himself.
I have no argument with any of that; besides I like Bob. I will admit,
however, that pictorially, Bob doesn't look no part of KunTao Silat.
Now that doesn't reflect in any way his martial talent - the man is a
seriously adept player. . . kempo, I think. <tic>
Steve -maybe "in" maybe "out" today- Gartin
--
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/8847/index.html
www.nettaxi.com/citizens/gartin/videos.html
Chas
> Hello! Please pardon the tardy reply - been busy.
> Actually, we were talking about William Sanders and P. Greg Alland and
> the bunch BEFORE Bob Orlando got involved with Uncle Bill.
So far, with the exception of Steve Plincks' fine video, I have not seen
anything (public) that reflects the arts that I was taught. The videos
by Paul, Willem and Victor- and the short takes on Maurice, are the only
ones that I know of that show the art. The explications by various
Senior House Students are all done under the direction of the teacher,
as with Dan Inosanto, Burton Richardson and Bob Vanatta.
Obviously, there are things that are reserved from the casual viewer,
but they are true to the concepts and principles.
> > >From: bob_o...@my-deja.com
> > > My goal has never been to dress Indonesian, eat
> > >Indonesian, or speak Indonesian, in order to move like or look
> > >Indonesian. What folly!
Well, you certainly wanted the Indonesian cachet when you used Victors'
logo on the cover of the book- if you're not presenting the de Thouars
art, and if it's not pure kuntao (much less pure silat), why did you
take the logo for your own?
Oh yeah, and copyright it?
And then, later, adding a cross?
A quote that might interest you; "I teach you to fight and I teach you
to fight- a fight comes? What do I see? John Wayne!"
There was also some mention of books, videos, etc. with an admonition to
'put up or shut up'- the book(s) and videos that were shortstopped at
the last publisher were *Willems'* books and videos- they were
shortstopped so that some greedy, self aggrandizing players could get
their own stuff published before that of their teacher. Neither Gartin
nor I have ever promoted anyone but the de Thouars brothers; all of
them. My own art studio provides the bulk of my income, my trade show
involvement and my arms appraisal business does the rest- my martial
arts involvement has been *nothing* but a drain on my resources; a gift
of appreciation to my teachers- thousands of dollars and years of work
for which I have expected nothing but the opportunity to repay, in some
small measure, the gift of grace that they have given me. People may
find annoyance in my perceptions of my art, but they can't say that I
have ever sought any personal privilege. I teach for free in hormat, my
seminars are within the reach of even very small schools. When I pump
something out here, it's my studio constructions and fine art objects.
Of course, with the present permissions, we will begin now to present
the Malabar art of kuntao silat- Gartin is, after all, the only man I
know of with certifications' from all four brothers for pukulan, kendang
silat, all of the kuntao systems and a proclamation of his lineage
seniority and its' inheritance. I think those certifications are still
available for viewing on his website. The new videos are awesome- lots
of applications, basic drills and conditioning methods.
Now, if you wanted to put all other differences aside, for the sake of
discussion in this forum, I would be more than eager to reflect with
you, in a scholarly manner, my differences of opinion re your books and
tapes. Nothing at all personal, just one practitioner to another
discussing the system.
Chas
Chas
> bob_o...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > ..... teach kempo under
> > the guise of "kuntao," I think some clarification is in order.
>
> No, I was STATING, as a FACT, that the de Thouars Brothers were
> concerned that "Profiteers" would ADD SILAT and KUNTAO to their
> cirriculum without bothering to adhere to well-established standards.
> These are BOTH very unique arts that REALLY don't look like anything
> I've ever seen before or since meeting the de Thouars Brothers back in
> the Seventies.
in point of fact, several noted national advertisers of martial skills
use the de Thouars credential for its' cachet. They have published
books, published videos and advertise seminars, workshops and private
instruction on the strength of that name.
> During those years that I have known the de Thouars Brothers, there
> have been SEVERAL efforts to "aid in American understanding" by
> TEACHING KEMPO BASICS brought into our group from an inter-related
> association. The de Thouars Brothers have always maintained that they
> HAVE their OWN basics that most folks are just TOO LAZY to LEARN.
In fact, there was a strong movement to deny novices access to kuntao
silat until they had completed two years of kempo. Surprise, Surprise;
who did the suggestion come from? The established kempo schools whose
instruction personnel are taking kuntao silat.
I maintain that the sikap (stance/posture) of a kuntao silat player is
noticeably different from a kempo player and that the difference is
significant. There is also the question of distancing and the question
of footwork; and some others.
> This is the VERY REASON that I designed Malabar KunTao Silat ONLY from
> the BASICS I learned from the de Thouars Brothers; mostly Willem. That
> was the FIRST time I got kicked out for opposing the Gitlin/Torres
> hostile take-over of the "association."
And all will notice how long they survived the stresses of this art and
the attendant affiliation.
> ....Matter of fact, we three and Wayne
> Welsh are all that remains of the old Combinato Association from the
> Seventies.
Well; Big Bill Stevens is still alive, me, Dan Gutierrez- Earl Alston
has passed, but Randell Goodwin is still very active. Mearle Thompson is
still active and Gary Phiel- we're spread out, but I still see them
every once in a while.
> Interestingly, we filmed a KunTao Silat Knife Video with Paladin last
> year. Since our art was actually conceived here in Colorado, we went up
> two miles high to do the filming with Mike Janich - just like we
> train. He should be finished with his magic production process soon.
> The focus was ONLY on how the knife applies in both arts and only in
> basic application; but I think that you will agree that it 'looks'
> different.
Everyone is looking forward to seeing that video- I believe that the
approach and the techniques shown will intrigue everyone who sees them.
Paladin is Steve Plincks' publisher/distributor also- a fine video and
we look forward to his new one and the book (I believe).
> Realistically, Bob has usually made it a habit to remain free from the
> political entanglements that surround our little group and has always
> maintained his own 'thing' - which I find admirable. At first, I was
> slightly chagrined to see how little he focused on Willem . . . but,
> with very little reading, I quickly realized that Bob was focusing on
> himself.
> I have no argument with any of that; besides I like Bob. I will admit,
> however, that pictorially, Bob doesn't look no part of KunTao Silat.
> Now that doesn't reflect in any way his martial talent - the man is a
> seriously adept player. . . kempo, I think. <tic>
Yes, I think it is kempo- you know, if memory serves-
Chas
bob_o...@my-deja.com
Steve Gartin <steve...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
>
> Actually, we were talking about William Sanders and P. Greg Alland and
> the bunch BEFORE Bob Orlando got involved with Uncle Bill.
Free publicity -- ain't it great!
Check out my books, video, and website http://www.orlandokuntao.com and
decide for yourself.
--
Bob.O...@juno.com http://www.orlandokuntao.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
A warrior may choose pacifism. Others are condemned to it.
--Martial Arts America (1998,8)
bob_o...@my-deja.com
Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> Steve Gartin wrote:
> <snip>
Free publicity -- ain't it great!
Check out my books, video, and website at http://www.orlandokuntao.com
and decide for yourself.
--
Bob.O...@juno.com http://www.orlandokuntao.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
A warrior may choose pacifism. Others are condemned to it.
--Martial Arts America (1998,8)
bob_o...@my-deja.com
Steve Gartin <steve...@geocities.com> wrote:
> Hi Bob and All. Pardon me for letting this set so long.
Free publicity -- ain't it great!
Check out my books, video, and website at http://www.orlandokuntao.com
and decide for yourself.
--
Bob.O...@juno.com http://www.orlandokuntao.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
A warrior may choose pacifism. Others are condemned to it.
--Martial Arts America (1998,8)
Like I see
>Date: Thu, 22 July 1999 04:55 PM EDT
>Message-id: <3797849F...@home.com>
CLOWNS of a feather, TALK shit together.
I'll TRUST Bob Orland over all that FAKE deThouars BULLSHIT.
Like I see
>Date: Thu, 22 July 1999 07:53 PM EDT
>Message-id: <7n8auh$91s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>Free publicity -- ain't it great!
>
>Check out my books, video, and website at http://www.orlandokuntao.com
>and decide for yourself.
>
>--
>Bob.O...@juno.com http://www.orlandokuntao.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>A warrior may choose pacifism. Others are condemned to it.
> --Martial Arts America (1998,8)
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Bob? Just consider who's talking shit.
The 2 biggest KOOKS on RMA. Gartin still bad mouthing the CIA? FBI? DEA?
Same with Chas. Talk about scamming
SPAMERS...
Like I see
>Message-id: <7n8b1j$93j$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>In article <7n7jes$do$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Steve Gartin <steve...@geocities.com> wrote:
>> Hi Bob and All. Pardon me for letting this set so long.
>
>Free publicity -- ain't it great!
>
>Check out my books, video, and website at http://www.orlandokuntao.com
>and decide for yourself.
>
>--
>Bob.O...@juno.com http://www.orlandokuntao.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>A warrior may choose pacifism. Others are condemned to it.
> --Martial Arts America (1998,8)
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Bob? You are way too skilled for these two KOOKS.
Like I see
>Date: Thu, 22 July 1999 01:31 PM EDT
>Message-id: <379754D1...@home.com>
>
>Steve Gartin wrote:
>> Hello! Please pardon the tardy reply - been busy.
>> the bunch BEFORE Bob Orlando got involved with Uncle Bill.
>
Chas? You are soooooo condescending.
Bob would kick your ass and Steve's at the sametime. So get lost Punk.
bob_o...@my-deja.com
Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> Now, if you wanted to put all other differences aside, for the sake of
> discussion in this forum, I would be more than eager to reflect with
> you, in a scholarly manner, my differences of opinion re your books
and
> tapes. Nothing at all personal, just one practitioner to another
> discussing the system.
>
> Chas
>
Untrue. I offered to discuss our differences face to face and here is
your reply (and my initial e-mail that you included in your response):
> From: Chas <gryp...@worldnet.att.net>
> Received: from mx1.boston.juno.com (mx1.boston.juno.com
[207.205.100.50])
> by x6.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0/2.0.kim) with ESMTP id
OAAAA07176
> for <bob.o...@juno.com>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:54:36 -0500 (EST)
> Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net
[204.127.131.33])
> by mx1.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0/2.0.kim) with ESMTP
id OAAAA00256
> for <bob.o...@juno.com>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:54:35 -0500 (EST)
> Received: from default ([12.67.68.205]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net
> (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA9404
> for <bob.o...@juno.com>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:54:33 +0000
> Return-path: <gryp...@worldnet.att.net>
> To: Bob Orlando <bob.o...@juno.com>
> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 12:54:59 -0700
> Subject: Re: Private Correspondence
> Message-ID: <34F9BD...@worldnet.att.net>
>
> Bob Orlando wrote:
> >
> > Chas,
> >
> > I have always taken a dim view of Bill's students hanging family
> > laundry in public (e.g. discussing family matters on the news
> > group), so I would like to correspond with you directly to address
> > some of your last comments. Is this agreeable to you? Just
> > straight talk between us.
> >
> > Bob
>
> To what end?
> It is already obvious that you feel very little obligation or
gratitude
> to Uncle. You have stated in print that your understanding of the art
is
> better than the seniors who came before you. You have implied that the
> relationship between you and Uncle is that of peers and the rest of us
> look up to 'Uncle' as you call him 'Bill'. You have reduced his
culture
> to Dale Carnegie principles and mechanical engineering.
> Uncle, Joyce and Vicky have been very disturbed at your lack of
respect
> and any feeling of obligation, much less gratitude. You give some
small
> lip service to your debt to him but there is no real evidence of it.
You
> dedicate your book to someone you met once and Bruce Lee?? You are a
> good kempo player- it is obvious that kempo is where your interests
lie
> and your skills are based.
> It isn't so much what you do, as what you don't do, Bob.
> When one breaks away from a teacher and asserts ones independence and
> self reliance, one stands alone. I've been there many times with this
> family.
> Best of luck.
> Chas
> write if you care to- I have no objections to corresponding with you.
It
> has been obvious from our meetings in the past that we're probably not
> going to be buddies.
Curiously, for all your complaining about my book and video you
wrote the above just six months after you sent me the following:
> From: "Chas Clements" <gryp...@worldnet.att.net>
> To: "Bob Orlando" <borl...@den.amoco.com>
> Subject: Re: Video and Book II
> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:59:53 -0600
>
> Bob:
>
> I truly enjoy your first book and look forward to an opportunity to
> have you signature it for me. I am a bookbinder and bibliophile (in
> my other life) and collect author autographs. Be sure to put me
> down for a copy of each. Best of luck to you in all things.
>
> Chas
Now you tell everyone that your copies of my book and video were
received from Willem because he was going to throw them away.
Your attacks on me started back in May of 96. Here's a nice little
note you sent to my publisher:
> Date: Thu, 16 May 96 08:32 MDT
> To: clu...@rmii.com
> From: pa...@rmii.com (Paladin Press)
> Subject: Credentials of Roberto Torres
>
>> Date: Wed, 15 May 96 20:58 MDT
>> From: clem...@rmi.net
>> Subject: Credentials of Roberto Torres
>> To: pa...@rmii.com
>>
>> Gentlemen: This posting may be of interest to you in light of
>> the release of your Indonesian fighting arts book in Sept.
>>
>>> On behalf of Willem de Thouars, founder of Kun Lun Pai, Ratu
>>> Duri Silat, Kuntao Silat, and later Kuntao Silat de Thouars I
>>> am posting the following message. While the exact wording is
>>> my own the intent of the message should be absolutely clear.
>>> This morning 5/14/96 at 8:00 am EST I recieved a phone call
>>> from my teacher and friend directing me to make the following
>>> statements. This is being done publically because the cause of
>>> this action involves public statements made by Roberto Torres.
>>>
>>> Willem de Thouars publically disavows any connection to,
>>> or support of, Roberto Torres; and all previous rank and
>>> recognition in any of his martial arts is withdrawn. The
>>> Kun Lun Pai (martial arts family) does not recognize any
>>> association to Roberto Torres. Roberto Torres is not
>>> authorized to teach Kun Lun Pai. Roberto Torres is not
>>> authorized to claim lineage in ANY system descending from
>>> Willem de Thouars, including Tjimandi, Tjimundi Tulen (or any
>>> spelling derivitives). Roberto Torres is not authorized to
>>> teach Ratu Duri Silat or any Silat system deriving from Willem
>>> de Thouars. Roberto Torres is not authorized to teach Wu Kung
>>> Kun Tao, which is derived from Willem de Thouars. Roberto has
>>> not studied long enough to make claims to mastery in any of
>>> these arts. His total study has been over a period of three
>>> years on a less than monthly basis,i.e., approximately 20
>>> lessons. Furthermore his personal system of Perisai Diri
>>> is not recognized by members in the Kun Lun Pai as having
>>> a legitimacy derived from Willem de Thouars.
>>>
>>> The reason for these actions is the misuse of the de Thouars
>>> family name for profit, the spreading of misinformation
>>> relating to the de Thouars family, the use of the de Thouars
>>> family name in bad taste. When I say the de Thouars family
>>> name, this includes misuse of the name relating to Pendekar
>>> Paul de Thouars, head of the Serak Silat system and the Bukti
>>> Negara Silat System, as well as any other members of the de
>>> Thouars family. Any future misuse of the de Thouars family
>>> name, and claims to leadership in the de Thouars family
>>> systems will be met with legal action.
>>
>> Gurug -- a pal in drome
>> Guru Randall Goodwin
>> email: gu...@odyssee.net
>> visit: http://www.odyssee.net/~gurug
>> (An Official Internet site for Kun Lun Pai,
>> Kun Tao Silat de Thouars)
>>
>> Best Wishes, Chas Clements
>
Then, you sent the following retraction:
> Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:29 MDT
> From: clem...@rmi.net
> To: pa...@rmi.net
> Cc: mat...@nyiq.net
>
> To the Editors of Paladin Press:
>
> Gentlemen: You received a forwarded posting of the withdrawal of
> credentials, etc. of Roberto Torres by Bapak Willem de Thouars from
> me. This was, in no way, to reflect negatively on Mr. Bob Orlando,
> nor on his fine book about Uncles' teachings. Uncle Bill is very
> proud of Mr. Orlando for producing the first work of substance about
> Uncles' wonderful art that gives proper credit to its' Founder. His
> endorsement of the book is given in grace. Mr. Torres has used
> assumptions of credentialling from Bapak de Thouars to validate his
> videos and projected publications. That credentialing has never
> reflected Mr. Torres' position in our group and may reflect
> negatively on Mr.Orlandos' fine presentation.
>
> My sincere apologies to Mr. Orlando for any misunderstanding of
> Uncles' instructions ref. Torres and any unintended reflections
> that may have inconvenienced or embarrassed him.
>
> Best Regards and Respects
> Chas Clements
Need I go on. Chas, end this thing right now. Leave me alone and
keep me out of your future public ramblings and ruminations about
my works, my art, or myself.
--
Bob.O...@bigfoot.com http://www.orlandokuntao.com
Chas
> Untrue. I offered to discuss our differences face to face and here is
> your reply (and my initial e-mail that you included in your response):
Gee Bob: private e-mail and all-
I wasn't going to call attention to that stuff in public- but.....
I wrote:
> > To what end?
> > It is already obvious that you feel very little obligation or
> gratitude to Uncle. You have stated in print that your understanding of the art
> is better than the seniors who came before you. You have implied that the
> > relationship between you and Uncle is that of peers and the rest of us
> > look up to 'Uncle' as you call him 'Bill'. You have reduced his culture
> > to Dale Carnegie principles and mechanical engineering.
> > Uncle, Joyce and Vicky have been very disturbed at your lack of
> respect and any feeling of obligation, much less gratitude. You give some
> small lip service to your debt to him but there is no real evidence of it.
> You dedicate your book to someone you met once and Bruce Lee?? You are a
> > good kempo player- it is obvious that kempo is where your interests
> lie and your skills are based.
> > It isn't so much what you do, as what you don't do, Bob.
> > When one breaks away from a teacher and asserts ones independence and
> > self reliance, one stands alone. I've been there many times with this
> > family.
> > Best of luck.
> > Chas
> > write if you care to- I have no objections to corresponding with you.
> It
> > has been obvious from our meetings in the past that we're probably not
> > going to be buddies.
Yep- pretty straightforward if you ask me-
What part of it do you think isn't cogent to the question?
> Curiously, for all your complaining about my book and video you
> wrote the above just six months after you sent me the following:
> > I truly enjoy your first book and look forward to an opportunity to
> > have you signature it for me. I am a bookbinder and bibliophile (in
> > my other life) and collect author autographs. Be sure to put me
> > down for a copy of each. Best of luck to you in all things.
I had only looked at it cursorily- It actually looked pretty good at
first. I do collect autographed books- I hadn't gotten one of yours yet,
that's why I said to put me down for a copy of each.
Uncle spurred the comments on your book, your video and your demeanor-
do you doubt it?
> Now you tell everyone that your copies of my book and video were
> received from Willem because he was going to throw them away.
And its true- the dedication from you is in the front- they were being
discarded- he was vacillating between being pissed and roaring with
laughter- didn't your friends tell you?
> Your attacks on me started back in May of 96. Here's a nice little
> note you sent to my publisher:
> >> From: clem...@rmi.net
> >> Subject: Credentials of Roberto Torres
> >> To: pa...@rmii.com
> >>
> >> Gentlemen: This posting may be of interest to you in light of
> >> the release of your Indonesian fighting arts book in Sept.
> >>
> >>> On behalf of Willem de Thouars, founder of Kun Lun Pai, Ratu
> >>> Duri Silat, Kuntao Silat, and later Kuntao Silat de Thouars I
> >>> am posting the following message......
> >>> Willem de Thouars publically disavows any connection to,
> >>> or support of, Roberto Torres; and all previous rank and
> >>> recognition in any of his martial arts is withdrawn. The
> >>> Kun Lun Pai (martial arts family) does not recognize any
> >>> association to Roberto Torres. Roberto Torres is not
> >>> authorized to teach Kun Lun Pai. Roberto Torres is not
> >>> authorized to claim lineage in ANY system descending from
> >>> Willem de Thouars, including Tjimandi, Tjimundi Tulen (or any
> >>> spelling derivitives). Roberto Torres is not authorized to
> >>> teach Ratu Duri Silat or any Silat system deriving from Willem
> >>> de Thouars. Roberto Torres is not authorized to teach Wu Kung
> >>> Kun Tao, which is derived from Willem de Thouars. Roberto has
> >>> not studied long enough to make claims to mastery in any of
> >>> these arts. His total study has been over a period of three
> >>> years on a less than monthly basis,i.e., approximately 20
> >>> lessons. Furthermore his personal system of Perisai Diri
> >>> is not recognized by members in the Kun Lun Pai as having
> >>> a legitimacy derived from Willem de Thouars.
Another private e-mail, not even to you, and one from Willem through
Randall Goodwin through me to boot.... Bob Torres will no doubt
appreciate it also- Was there a part that you don't believe is from
Willem? Do you think that Randall Goodwin made it up?
> >>> The reason for these actions is the misuse of the de Thouars
> >>> family name for profit, the spreading of misinformation
> >>> relating to the de Thouars family, the use of the de Thouars
> >>> family name in bad taste. When I say the de Thouars family
> >>> name, this includes misuse of the name relating to Pendekar
> >>> Paul de Thouars, head of the Serak Silat system and the Bukti
> >>> Negara Silat System, as well as any other members of the de
> >>> Thouars family. Any future misuse of the de Thouars family
> >>> name, and claims to leadership in the de Thouars family
> >>> systems will be met with legal action.
> >>
> >> Gurug -- a pal in drome
> >> Guru Randall Goodwin
> >> email: gu...@odyssee.net
> >> visit: http://www.odyssee.net/~gurug
> >> (An Official Internet site for Kun Lun Pai,
> >> Kun Tao Silat de Thouars)
> >>
> >> Best Wishes, Chas Clements
> Then, you sent the following retraction:
No retraction Bob- your name was not mentioned before, only Torres'-
There was, and is, a question about your rights to the logo (none) and
Uncle felt you might have been tarred by association with Torres.
>
> > Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:29 MDT
> > From: clem...@rmi.net
> > To: pa...@rmi.net
> > Cc: mat...@nyiq.net
> >
> > To the Editors of Paladin Press:
> >
> > Gentlemen: You received a forwarded posting of the withdrawal of
> > credentials, etc. of Roberto Torres by Bapak Willem de Thouars from
> > me. This was, in no way, to reflect negatively on Mr. Bob Orlando,
> > nor on his fine book about Uncles' teachings. Uncle Bill is very
> > proud of Mr. Orlando for producing the first work of substance about
> > Uncles' wonderful art that gives proper credit to its' Founder. His
> > endorsement of the book is given in grace. Mr. Torres has used
> > assumptions of credentialling from Bapak de Thouars to validate his
> > videos and projected publications. That credentialing has never
> > reflected Mr. Torres' position in our group and may reflect
> > negatively on Mr.Orlandos' fine presentation.
> >
> > My sincere apologies to Mr. Orlando for any misunderstanding of
> > Uncles' instructions ref. Torres and any unintended reflections
> > that may have inconvenienced or embarrassed him.
> >
> > Best Regards and Respects
> > Chas Clements
That was a small effort by me, at Uncles' behest, to save face for you,
and for Uncle- it was before he knew that you were going to be the way
you are, Bob. It was a letter to a third party, Bob. Does Paladin
commonly copy you in on private e-mail from others also?
I think everybody was trying to help you distance yourself from Torres
and Gitlin- weren't you the means of introduction?
Gee, try to do something nice for someone....
> Need I go on. Chas, end this thing right now. Leave me alone and
> keep me out of your future public ramblings and ruminations about
> my works, my art, or myself.
Gee, Bob- does that mean no Christmas card again this year too?
You really know how to hurt someones' feelings-
Chas
bob_o...@my-deja.com
Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> No retraction Bob- your name was not mentioned before, only Torres'-
> There was, and is, a question about your rights to the logo (none) and
> Uncle felt you might have been tarred by association with Torres.
>
Yeah, right. The point is that you wrote to my publisher at all. We'd
never even met and you were contacting my publisher. No one else's,
mine. Uncle never asked you to send that note to my publisher. Period.
>>
>>> Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:29 MDT
>>> From: clem...@rmi.net
>>> To: pa...@rmi.net
>>> Cc: mat...@nyiq.net
>>>
>>> To the Editors of Paladin Press:
>>>
>>> Gentlemen: You received a forwarded posting of the withdrawal of
>>> credentials, etc. of Roberto Torres by Bapak Willem de Thouars from
>>> me. This was, in no way, to reflect negatively on Mr. Bob Orlando,
>>> nor on his fine book about Uncles' teachings. Uncle Bill is very
>>> proud of Mr. Orlando for producing the first work of substance about
>>> Uncles' wonderful art that gives proper credit to its' Founder. His
>>> endorsement of the book is given in grace. Mr. Torres has used
>>> assumptions of credentialling from Bapak de Thouars to validate his
>>> videos and projected publications. That credentialing has never
>>> reflected Mr. Torres' position in our group and may reflect
>>> negatively on Mr.Orlandos' fine presentation.
>>>
>>> My sincere apologies to Mr. Orlando for any misunderstanding of
>>> Uncles' instructions ref. Torres and any unintended reflections
>>> that may have inconvenienced or embarrassed him.
>>>
>>> Best Regards and Respects
>>> Chas Clements
>
> That was a small effort by me, at Uncles' behest, to save face for
> you, and for Uncle- <snip>
> I think everybody was trying to help you distance yourself from
> Torres and Gitlin- weren't you the means of introduction?
Absolutely correct in that I was the one who introduced Bob Torres
to Bill. Bob Torres is a good man and a fine practitioner and I
don't for a moment regret introducing the gentleman.
> Gee, try to do something nice for someone....
Yeah, right. The only time you've ever tried to do something nice for
someone was when there was something in it for you. For example,
when you praised my video (in case you conveniently forgot, here are
your words):
> Subject: Kuntao-Silat Vid Critique
> From: Chas Clements <gryp...@worldnet.att.net>
> Date: 1997/11/25
> Message-ID: <65fdqt$k...@mtinsc02.worldnet.att.net>
> Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
>
>
> Well- sometimes I wish I had done something first and this is one
> of the times. Just got a comp copy of Bob Orlando's 'Fighting
> Arts of Indonesia' video from Paladin.
>
> If there has been a consistent criticism of our videos, it is that
> they are too advanced and too complex to learn from, no basics.
> This video shows me what they mean. Bob has taken some very basic
> principles and expounded on them in a very masterful way.
>
> I have been involved in the art for so long that sometimes I
> forget just how *different* kuntao silat is from other arts. I
> take for granted that people understand the principles that we're
> working with. Well, this disabused me of that notion immediately.
>
> The video is still not going to satisfy the people who want to see
> bones broken and people hurt for their entertainment. Bob
> presents in a very reserved manner (I suppose for litigation
> liability purposes) and the breaks, torques and cranking
> mechanisms are presented in a kinder gentler manner. All in all,
> he did a hell of a job and I got a lot from the video. He
> reminded me of things that I haven't thought of in a long time-
> must be doing something right.
>
> If you're interested in Willem De Thouars Kuntao Silat, this is
> the best basic instructional video that you can obtain. Of
> course, when you see his, you're going to want ours also ;>)
>
> Chas
"Of course, when you see his, you're going to want ours also ;>)"
Like Templeton the Rat, "What's in it for me?"
You sure seemed to like my video enough when it suited your purpose.
You switched as soon as it suited your purpose to do so.
>
>> Need I go on. Chas, end this thing right now. Leave me alone
>> and keep me out of your future public ramblings and ruminations
>> about my works, my art, or myself.
>
> Gee, Bob- does that mean no Christmas card again this year too?
> You really know how to hurt someones' feelings-
>
> Chas
>
When pressed with the truth (a concept you know are keenly unfamiliar
with) you inevitably resort to either personal attacks or feeble
attempts at wit. Well you are successful at half of the latter? Again,
"Leave me alone and keep me out of your public ramblings and ruminations
about my works, my art, or myself." Do that and you'll never have to
concern yourself with one less Christmas card.
Bob
Talio123
regarding me and Perisai Setia. Funny I never recieved such letters from Bapak
Willem himself. I refer anyone to look at Bapak Willem's official web page
(http://www.kuntaosilatdethouars.com/home.html). Here is what it says about me
"Roberto Torres has thirty years experience including nearly twenty years in
the Visitacion Kun Tao School. Mr. Torres and Mr. de Thouars created a
hybridized style called Pencak Silat Perisai Setia, which is derived from Ci
Mande and other de Thouars family arts." By the way here is what it says about
Bob Orlando "Bob Orlando has over thirty years experience in several Martial
Arts including Kempo, and Fillipino Martial Arts. For about the twelve years
his study with Mr. de Thouars has dramatically changed his Art. He is the
author of two books, one on lndonesian Martial Arts." Of course other teachers
are listed. All fine instructors of the martial arts.
Salam Hormat,
Roberto Torres
Talio Self Defense Academy
Pencak Silat Perisai Setia (Harimau Sikap Baru)
"Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another." Prov. 27:17
"Sebagaimana baja mengasah baja, begitu pula manusia belajar dari sesamanya."
Amsal 27:17
Hormat,
Roberto Torres
Pencak Silat Perisai Setia
Talio Self Defense Academy
"Iron Sharpens Iron, So One Man Sharpens Another." Prov. 27:17
Chas
> Please refer to Uncle Bill's web page under teachers and see what is says
> regarding me and Perisai Setia. Funny I never recieved such letters from Bapak
> Willem himself.
"Funny"??
Are you saying that Randall Goodwin made it up, or, perhaps, that I did?
Are you saying that Willem didn't dictate that information to him? Are
you saying that Willem didn't direct the promulgation of that
information? Do you think that any part of the information is incorrect?
Let me in on the joke; I'm a jolly guy- let me laugh too.
Willem didn't have a computer or internet access until we gave it to him
in hormat. He used to post through Randall Goodwin, through Gartin, and
through me. You *did* receive Willems' statements- Steve, nor I, nor
Randall, have never presented *anything* in his name that wasn't _at his
direct initiative_.
Anyone who believes that I would cross him while living in the same city
as him, and seeing/communicating with him regularly, is being silly.
If memory serves, you received copies of everything- we certainly had
some long and interesting discussions about it. Check with Gitlin-
surely he archived all that stuff for you and he. I think that Gartin
actually has it all (or the pertinent parts anyway) on his website- if
he doesn't, I believe that I have it all. Of course, the bulk of it is
in DejaNews for anyone who cares to pull it up.
I think that the record is completely clear- and instantly available.
And I'm happy to help :-)
And anyone who wants to check your relationship with the Bakbakan or
Florindo Visitacion should check with Rey Galang or the Bakbakan
International in the Philippines or here- they paid advertising rates to
publish a letter in several print venue that detailed your shallow
involvement and denied any accreditation or relationship with you. Seems
to me that it was in all the big monthly specialty mags as well as on
the newsgroup (DejaNews again).
But- it's nice that everything is ok now-
Chas Clements
Silat Betawi Muda
Aurora, Colorado
Chas
> Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> > No retraction Bob- your name was not mentioned before, only Torres'-
> > There was, and is, a question about your rights to the logo (none) and
> > Uncle felt you might have been tarred by association with Torres.
> Yeah, right. The point is that you wrote to my publisher at all. We'd
> never even met and you were contacting my publisher. No one else's,
> mine. Uncle never asked you to send that note to my publisher. Period.
We were in constant communication with Paladin (Mike Janich) about
Uncles' book and his tapes- under contract, with his full knowledge (on
a day to day basis), at his initiative. Never any other agenda, no
hidden nothing- at Uncle's direction and impetus. As we had never even
met, it is obvious that it wasn't on my own behalf, nor of Randalls',
nor of Steves'.
Period.
(snip well recorded letter)
> > That was a small effort by me, at Uncles' behest, to save face for
> > you, and for Uncle- <snip>
> > I think everybody was trying to help you distance yourself from
> > Torres and Gitlin- weren't you the means of introduction?
>
> Absolutely correct in that I was the one who introduced Bob Torres
> to Bill. Bob Torres is a good man and a fine practitioner and I
> don't for a moment regret introducing the gentleman.
Ethically similar-
> > Gee, try to do something nice for someone....
>
> Yeah, right. The only time you've ever tried to do something nice for
> someone was when there was something in it for you. For example,
> when you praised my video (in case you conveniently forgot, here are
> your words):
>
> > Subject: Kuntao-Silat Vid Critique
> > From: Chas Clements <gryp...@worldnet.att.net>
Sure, a puff piece- stroking the Paladin people, promoting Uncles' tapes
to be published through Paladin- one of my few forays into writing
advertising- I do, truly, regret it.
And, what? "Templeton the Rat"? what is that, kempo komics?
> You sure seemed to like my video enough when it suited your purpose.
> You switched as soon as it suited your purpose to do so.
As long as your video could be assisted by Willems' own, it isn't a
'bad' start- better than the kuntao stuff under other labels anyway.
And, I think that it was at one of the times that Willem was feeling
somewhat gracious in regards to you.
> >> Need I go on. Chas, end this thing right now. Leave me alone
> >> and keep me out of your future public ramblings and ruminations
> >> about my works, my art, or myself.
> >
> > Gee, Bob- does that mean no Christmas card again this year too?
> > You really know how to hurt someones' feelings-
> >
> > Chas
> >
>
> When pressed with the truth (a concept you know are keenly unfamiliar
> with) you inevitably resort to either personal attacks or feeble
> attempts at wit.
"Pressed with the Truth"??
Is there yet a Truth unspoken? A Truth hidden? Let's explore some truths
together, Bob.
I have not resorted to ad hominem attacks- *you*, as reflected in
DejaNews, don't *ever* present with anything substantial- nasty names
and sly innuendo, nothing more- well, saving your 'this isn't worth
pursuing' gambit.
> Well you are successful at half of the latter?
Better a time at bat than just sitting in the dugout whining to the
coach, Bob-
> Again,
> "Leave me alone and keep me out of your public ramblings and ruminations
> about my works, my art, or myself." Do that and you'll never have to
> concern yourself with one less Christmas card.
What goes around comes around, Bob-
It's just a hard old world, isn't it?
Chas
Chas
Talio123
commentary. I also wanted to ask you how come your wonderful and gracious name
does not apear on Uncles web page? I mean you are one of the few who promotes
his system and him purely. I was just wondering. Anyway I look forward to the
day you and I can get together. I may be in Colorado soon. If that comes to
pass I will surely let you know so that we can meet. It is always a pleasure to
meet someone of your status in person as we did a few years ago. I kept a
close eye on you and never saw you do one martial arts move among all those
seniors who where there. I guessed I missed a real treat. Well take care Chas
and stay healthy please we need icons like you in the martial arts, especially
in silat. Have a great day.
Roberto Torres
bob_o...@my-deja.com
A "puff piece- stroking the Paladin people?" Let's call it what
it is: a lie. You were either stroking Paladin (and lying to all
those reading your post on RMA), or you are lying right now [scratch
that 'or' -- you ARE lying right now. Just like your more recent
lies about Willem giving you my book and video as "an alternative
to shitcanning them" (your words). I mean, if the "puff piece-
stroking the Paladin people" is not the truth (basically a lie),
then the "comp copies" you received from them is also a lie (and I
know for fact that you received no comp copy from Paladin). And
what about the signed copies you said you had back in February of
1998? (BTW, Paladin has never asked me to sign any comp copies.)
I am sure you've forgotten this, so here's a refresher for you.
>------------------------------------------------------------------
> Subject: Re: which martial art?
> Date: 1998/02/28
> Author: Chas <gryp...@worldnet.att.net>
>
> Bob.O...@juno.com wrote:
> > Chas,
> >
> > You may be correct in your assertions. At 53 and with just
> > 30 years
> > in the arts
>
> 53 years old- 44 years martial arts
>
> (11 years with Bill: 1984--96),
> 20 years with the de Thouars Family, and presently
>
> > I do not have all the answers. I am, therefore, open to input
> > from anyone whose life and martial experience can improve my
> > own. So in light of your seniority (in age--my assumption) and
> > obvious experience, your words do merit careful consideration.
> > They are, however, your opinions and in fairness I must balance
> > them with the thoughts of others.
>
> I should have left out the 'fucking'.
>
> > For example, another gentleman--one with much broader experience
> > in the martial arts than either of us--said that he really liked
> > both my books--he even called me personally to say so. In fact,
> > he was gracious enough to put his sentiments in writing saying,
> >
> > "It gives me great pleasure to speak for Bob Orlando's book,
> > Martial Arts America. I found Martial Arts America, like his
> > first book, Indonesian Fighting Fundamentals, easy to read and
> > highly informative. His knowledge and teaching ability is
> > evident in the way he breaks down and explains the historical
> > and cultural aspects of the martial arts. Every chapter is
> > thought-provoking, causing the reader to explore his or her
> > own philosophy, internally and externally."
> >
> > Again, you may be correct in your assertions, but I prefer, as you
> > can imagine, Mr. Inosanto's insights over yours. (As you reread
> > the book, you will find Mr. Inosanto's remarks on the back cover
> > of Martial Arts America.)
>
> Yes, Mr. Inosanto is very kind and gracious. There is nothing
> that he said that I would disagree with. As you might imagine,
> your books and the tape have been a topic for conversation and
> debate for some time now in our milieu. My copies of your books
> are signatured, my video a gift. I find your work interesting
> enough to read (twice, now) and to consider. I just don't
> happen to agree with your perspective- nothing new. In point of
> fact, the division in our perceptions is the base of a much
> broader debate within the familys' practitioners. I am sure
> that you have seen a very different art than I have. I find
> your filter so different from mine as to be very thought
> provoking.
>
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Bob Orlando
>
> Respects and Best Wishes to you sir
> Chas
> It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!
>------------------------------------------------------------------
In the last paragraph of that note you say "My copies of your
books are signatured..." Really? You know, the problem with
lying is trying to keep track of them all. The simple fact Chas,
is that you lie. Period. In fact, you have lied for so long
that you are incapable of telling the truth. Credibility is not
a problem for you -- you have none.
I've asked you repeatedly to "end this thing right now." However,
I can see now that ending this is impossible for you because as a
habitual lier, you cannot tell the truth. You are, therefore,
compelled to continue lying simply to cover all the other lies
you've spread and subsequently forgotten. There is no way out of
this for you. You are a slave to your own deeds.
Bob Orlando
Chas
> Chas, thanks for the exposure I'll probaly get a few seminars out of your last
> commentary.
I bet they won't be with the Bakbakan, any of Florindo Visitacions'
actual people or from anyone who has seen Willem.
Of course, anything is possible.
> I also wanted to ask you how come your wonderful and gracious name
> does not apear on Uncles web page?
Well, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't- depends on how he's
feeling. Ever since being threatened by the police and the government,
he has had to distance himself from Gartin and from me.
I just got a wonderful letter from him though- very thoughtful, very
affectionate. And, of course, his brother just promoted me again- want
some pics?
Of course, I didn't get the coveted gold lame` sash with the little
flowers; I think those were just for you and Gitlin. By the way, which
of you now has the most flowers?
> I mean you are one of the few who promotes his system and him purely. I was just wondering.
Wondering what it's like to promote *him* rather than yourself? I
shouldn't wonder.
> Anyway I look forward to the
> day you and I can get together. I may be in Colorado soon. If that comes to
> pass I will surely let you know so that we can meet.
Your back feeling a bit better then?
'Christianity' wearing off?
It seems to me that you left a bit of business undone in Colorado from
the last time- isn't there a line forming?
> It is always a pleasure to
> meet someone of your status in person as we did a few years ago. I kept a
> close eye on you and never saw you do one martial arts move among all those
> seniors who where there.
Weren't you there for my knife instruction at the Family Gathering? And
if you
missed my time on the floor, did you not see my students?
I think that I probably spent more time with Gitlin than with you- I
think that you were more engaged with Steve than with me. That was
during all that 'racist' tripe you guys were trying out- you remember,
after Gitlin pulled the knife, so poorly.
> I guessed I missed a real treat. Well take care Chas
> and stay healthy please we need icons like you in the martial arts, especially
> in silat. Have a great day.
Always good to hear from you, Bob.
It's been so long- you know, seeing as you wouldn't allow me to post to
your 'silat list'-
heh-
Chas
Talio123
people >or from anyone who has seen Willem.
>Of course, anything is possible.
Guess not. They have there own problems. But why do you keep mentioning
grandmaster Visitacion? You had no association with him ever. Are you trying
associate with the great grandmaster name after his death? Best left alone.
Your out of your league there. By the way his name is Florendo!
>Well, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't- depends on how he's
>feeling. Ever since being threatened by >the police and the government,
>he has had to distance himself from >Gartin and from me.
Smart man.
>I just got a wonderful letter from him though- very thoughtful, very
>affectionate.
Sounds like Uncle.
> And, of course, his brother just promoted >me again- want
>some pics?
Congratulations! I would love some pics.
>Of course, I didn't get the coveted gold lame` sash with the little
>flowers; I think those were just for you and Gitlin. By the way, which
>of you now has the most flowers?
>
Shame on you for calling something Uncle issued lame. This was done in front of
witnesses such as Guru Besar Jim Ingram. Shame on you Chas. As for the
flowers, again are you poking fun at something Bapak Willem issued
>
>Wondering what it's like to promote *him* rather than yourself? I
>shouldn't wonder.
No, I was just wondering if you knew what it was like to stand on your own name
and not that of a well known teacher.
>Your back feeling a bit better then?
You mean when I was shot in the neck? yes I feel excellent thank God
>'Christianity' wearing off?
No, not at all just tired of your non sense.
>It seems to me that you left a bit of business undone in Colorado from
>the last time- isn't there a line forming?
Funny I was there the whole time, never saw a line, just good fellowship with
those who were introduced as Uncles students. I do not recall you being
introduced to me.
>Weren't you there for my knife instruction at the Family Gathering? And
>if you
>missed my time on the floor, did you not see my students?
Another funny thing I have the tape, magically you are not in it. I wonder
why?
>That was
>during all that 'racist' tripe you guys were trying out- you remember,
>after Gitlin pulled the knife, so poorly.
>
You mean when Steve made some rude comment about Jews and Gitlin drew his
blade. Yep I remember.
>Always good to hear from you, Bob.
>It's been so long- you know, seeing as you wouldn't allow me to post to
>your 'silat list'-
>heh-
>
>Chas
I did not know it meant so much to you. But hey you always have rma to post
on.
Well, I probably won't be able to comment on your next thread as my schedule
does not permit me much time for such things. Unless someone forwards a thread
to me. Anyway I feel that probably the folks on here are a little tired of
this stuff. I guess as a Christian I should not be involved in this type of
activity. But as a sinner that can only be saved by grace, I do make mistakes.
Salam Hormat,
Roberto Torres
Talio Self Defense Academy
Pencak Silat Perisai Setia (Harimau Sikap Baru)
"Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another." Prov. 27:17
"Sebagaimana baja mengasah baja, begitu pula manusia belajar dari sesamanya."
Amsal 27:17
Chas
> > Sure, a puff piece- stroking the Paladin people, promoting Uncles'
> > tapes to be published through Paladin- one of my few forays into
> > writing advertising- I do, truly, regret it. And, what? "Templeton
> > the Rat"? what is that, kempo komics?
>
> A "puff piece- stroking the Paladin people?" Let's call it what
> it is: a lie. You were either stroking Paladin (and lying to all
> those reading your post on RMA), or you are lying right now [scratch
> that 'or' -- you ARE lying right now.
Nah- I wrote that at Bill's behest to try to smooth the waters- his
tapes were being looked at, with the book and people didn't want me
saying stuff about your book and tape- I liked Plincks' stuff and said
so- I didn't like yours and said so- I was asked to say something nice
and I did. Now, you can call it a lie if you want- machs nichts to me,
Bob.
> Just like your more recent
> lies about Willem giving you my book and video as "an alternative
> to shitcanning them" (your words). I mean, if the "puff piece-
> stroking the Paladin people" is not the truth (basically a lie),
> then the "comp copies" you received from them is also a lie (and I
> know for fact that you received no comp copy from Paladin). And
> what about the signed copies you said you had back in February of
> 1998? (BTW, Paladin has never asked me to sign any comp copies.)
> I am sure you've forgotten this, so here's a refresher for you.
I never said anything about 'comp copies'- unless I identified your comp
copy to Willem that way- Paladin never gave me anything; never asked-
I have the copy that you gave Willem- he gave it to me when I asked- he
was throwing it away, with the video- really pissed off. A group of us
were standing around in the front room, discussing them, they had seen
them, I had not- again; didn't anybody tell you? I can see how they
wouldn't want to hurt your feelings by saying to your face what they
said behind your back.
You wish it was a lie.
> In the last paragraph of that note you say "My copies of your
> books are signatured..." Really? You know, the problem with
> lying is trying to keep track of them all. The simple fact Chas,
> is that you lie. Period. In fact, you have lied for so long
> that you are incapable of telling the truth. Credibility is not
> a problem for you -- you have none.
I have the signatured book; inscribed to Bill, cast aside without
regard, almost landed on the tape- I don't think the second book is
signatured though- I thought that I remembered that it was- I'll have to
look again.
No lie there, Bob- although I can smell your hope from here.
> I've asked you repeatedly to "end this thing right now." However,
> I can see now that ending this is impossible for you because as a
> habitual lier, you cannot tell the truth. You are, therefore,
> compelled to continue lying simply to cover all the other lies
> you've spread and subsequently forgotten. There is no way out of
> this for you. You are a slave to your own deeds.
Gee, Bob- just because I wrote a puff piece on your behalf- when asked
to do so? that might be bad advertising- or even bad taste, but its' not
lying. Saying something positive, when asked by a man so important to
me, to try to smooth the waters?
Shit- you need to pick another topic. I notice that you didn't say
anything substantive yet again.
Ad hominem remarks, nothing substantial- a lot like your book
Chas
Chas
> >I bet they won't be with the Bakbakan, >any of Florindo Visitacions' actual
> people >or from anyone who has seen Willem.
> >Of course, anything is possible.
> Guess not. They have there own problems. But why do you keep mentioning
> grandmaster Visitacion? You had no association with him ever. Are you trying
> associate with the great grandmaster name after his death? Best left alone.
> Your out of your league there. By the way his name is Florendo!
Geez Bob- what an unfortunate projection- you know, the thing about
'trying to associate with the name...' That's what they caught you doing
isn't it? So what was that whole letter about anyway? I can't imagine
that you tried to run the same game twice-
We had some interaction with them when they found out you were trying to
do the same thing to Bill.
Thanks for the spelling correction though- tacky, but thanks anyway-
> >Well, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't- depends on how he's
> >feeling. Ever since being threatened by >the police and the government,
> >he has had to distance himself from >Gartin and from me.
> Smart man.
Yeah, interesting to see how you guys work. It is the subject of Federal
suit now you know- that sort of rank intimidation is not how you guys
are supposed to operate. No wonder they pile crime on crime though- no
wonder they don't want to go to court though- they're shameful.
Oh yeah, and it doesn't slop over on me, Bob- It was Gartin that got mad
when his children were kidnapped and the cops rathered to torture him
than do their job.
I can see how you would opt for the dim blue line though.
> >Of course, I didn't get the coveted gold lame` sash with the little
> >flowers; I think those were just for you and Gitlin. By the way, which
> >of you now has the most flowers?
> Shame on you for calling something Uncle issued lame.
That's la-mey, Bob <g>
Unless you think *all* of us look like a Times Square stripper.....
> This was done in front of
> witnesses such as Guru Besar Jim Ingram. Shame on you Chas. As for the
> flowers, again are you poking fun at something Bapak Willem issued
Nothing he didn't poke fun at himself <g>
and it looks absolutely appropriate on you, and Art <GG>
> >Wondering what it's like to promote *him* rather than yourself? I
> >shouldn't wonder.
> No, I was just wondering if you knew what it was like to stand on your own name
> and not that of a well known teacher.
Oh- I had a school when they walked through the door, Bob- I've been
'standing on my own' forever. Still.
> >It seems to me that you left a bit of business undone in Colorado from
> >the last time- isn't there a line forming?
>
> Funny I was there the whole time, never saw a line, just good fellowship with
> those who were introduced as Uncles students. I do not recall you being
> introduced to me.
I'm the good looking one- the 'good fellowship' was when we thought you
were a good fellow. That changed as we got to know you.
> >Weren't you there for my knife instruction at the Family Gathering? And
> >if you
> >missed my time on the floor, did you not see my students?
>
> Another funny thing I have the tape, magically you are not in it. I wonder
> why?
Ask whomever was doing the taping- you know, whoever it was-
> >That was
> >during all that 'racist' tripe you guys were trying out- you remember,
> >after Gitlin pulled the knife, so poorly.
> >
> You mean when Steve made some rude comment about Jews and Gitlin drew his
> blade. Yep I remember.
Gartin never made such a remark- that was Gitlins' cover-up for waving
his blade around like an idiot and making snide remarks- he was covered
so fast it looked like a magic trick.
> >Always good to hear from you, Bob.
> >It's been so long- you know, seeing as you wouldn't allow me to post to
> >your 'silat list'-
> >heh-
> I did not know it meant so much to you. But hey you always have rma to post
> on.
yup <g>
and all the posts are filed- there for all to see- much less the stuff
in print and the long memories of all who know you.
> Well, I probably won't be able to comment on your next thread as my schedule
> does not permit me much time for such things. Unless someone forwards a thread
> to me. Anyway I feel that probably the folks on here are a little tired of
> this stuff. I guess as a Christian I should not be involved in this type of
> activity. But as a sinner that can only be saved by grace, I do make mistakes.
noted-
bye now,
Chas
bob_o...@my-deja.com
Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> I never said anything about 'comp copies'- unless I identified
Another lie Chas. Here are your words (again -- I know, I know,
just too many lies to keep track of):
>> Subject: Kuntao-Silat Vid Critique
>> Date: 1997/11/25
>> From: Chas Clements <gryp...@worldnet.att.net>
>>
>> Well- sometimes I wish I had done something first and this is one
>> of the times. Just got a comp copy of Bob Orlando's 'Fighting
>> Arts of Indonesia' video from Paladin.
>>
>> If there has been a consistent criticism of our videos, it is that
>> they are too advanced and too complex to learn from, no basics.
>> This video shows me what they mean. Bob has taken some very basic
>> principles and expounded on them in a very masterful way.
>>
>> I have been involved in the art for so long that sometimes I
>> forget just how *different* kuntao silat is from other arts. I
>> take for granted that people understand the principles that we're
>> working with. Well, this disabused me of that notion immediately.
>>
>> The video is still not going to satisfy the people who want to see
>> bones broken and people hurt for their entertainment. Bob
>> presents in a very reserved manner (I suppose for litigation
>> liability purposes) and the breaks, torques and cranking
>> mechanisms are presented in a kinder gentler manner. All in all,
>> he did a hell of a job and I got a lot from the video. He
>> reminded me of things that I haven't thought of in a long time-
>> must be doing something right.
>>
>> If you're interested in Willem De Thouars Kuntao Silat, this is
>> the best basic instructional video that you can obtain. Of
>> course, when you see his, you're going to want ours also ;>)
>> Chas
First paragraph, second line -- "comp copy". And not
identified" as my copy to Willem. (Doubtless it is just
too much to expect one as prolific as yourself to keep
track of all your lies.)
Chas, you make a point of getting in the last word in
these RMA "discussions" (liars always have to get in the
last word), and I'm sure that you'll get in the last word
here as well. It may be some feeble attempt at wit or
humor, or it may degenerate into your usual highly
profane ranting and raving. You may try your customary
personal insults (you're fond, I believe, of the "taking
your meds question"), or you may try shifting the subject
away from the issue at hand. Regardless of all the
things you might say, one thing is certain -- coming out
of your mouth, it can only be a lie.
For those interested in reading Dan Inosanto's remarks
about my books, as well as reviews from others (readers
and viewers), please go to my web site at
http://www.orlandokuntao.com and follow the links to the
reviews in "Books & Videos."
Chas
> > your comp copy to Willem that way- <snip>
> >> Well- sometimes I wish I had done something first and this is one
> >> of the times. Just got a comp copy of Bob Orlando's 'Fighting
> >> Arts of Indonesia' video from Paladin.
*Your* comp copy given to Willem, published by Paladin- what is your
problem?
Your reading comprehension skills are as slight as your analytical
skills- and you analysis of what you read is even more pitiful.
> First paragraph, second line -- "comp copy". And not
> identified" as my copy to Willem. (Doubtless it is just
> too much to expect one as prolific as yourself to keep
> track of all your lies.)
I know you're searching for a leg to stand on, Bob- but that ain't it.
If you want people to believe I'm a liar because you can't read, and
because you desperately want to find a way to discredit me, I suggest
that you take another tack.
I have the book, and the video; your inscription to Willem inside- a
comp copy you gave him and that he discarded without regard- while your
friends made snide remarks.... and that isn't even to say what your
not-friends have said.
> Chas, you make a point of getting in the last word in
> these RMA "discussions" (liars always have to get in the
> last word), and I'm sure that you'll get in the last word
> here as well.
And it will be; Faugh
> It may be some feeble attempt at wit or
> humor, or it may degenerate into your usual highly
> profane ranting and raving.
I may write, and speak, in the vulgate, I am never profane-
Another baseless ad hominem remark there, Bob- and up to your general
level of mediocrity in insult- it does, however, rise to your best level
of writing.
> You may try your customary
> personal insults (you're fond, I believe, of the "taking
> your meds question"),
You may believe it, that doesn't make it true- besides I have never
thought of you as taking antipsychotic drugs- they're much more
effective than that-
> or you may try shifting the subject
> away from the issue at hand. Regardless of all the
> things you might say, one thing is certain -- coming out
> of your mouth, it can only be a lie.
You're grasping at strawmen, Bob-
and, as promised-
Faugh-
Chas
bob_o...@my-deja.com
evidenced by his oft-changing stories. Here is but one
example.
November 25, 1997 -- 1st lie (about this topic).
> Subject: Kuntao-Silat Vid Critique
> Date: 1997/11/25
> From: Chas Clements <gryp...@worldnet.att.net>
> Well- sometimes I wish I had done something first and
> this is one of the times. JUST GOT A COMP COPY of Bob
> Orlando's 'Fighting Arts of Indonesia' video FROM PALADIN.
[emphasis added]
-----------------------------------------------------------
July 12, 1999 -- 2nd lie (again, about this topic).
> Subject: Re: Deadly de Thouars
> Date: 1999/07/26
> Author: Chas <gryp...@home.com>
>
> I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT 'COMP COPIES'- unless
> I identified your comp copy to Willem that way-
> PALADIN NEVER GAVE ME ANYTHING; NEVER ASKED- <snip>
[emphasis added] <snip>
-----------------------------------------------------------
July 26, 1999 -- 3rd lie (again, not the last I'm sure).
> Subject: Re: Deadly de Thouars
> Date: 1999/07/26
> Author: Chas <gryp...@home.com>
>
>>> Well- sometimes I wish I had done something first and
>>> this is one of the times. Just got a comp copy of Bob
>>> Orlando's 'Fighting Arts of Indonesia' video from Paladin.
>
> *Your* comp copy given to Willem, published by Paladin-
> what is your problem? <snip>
-----------------------------------------------------------
No problem Chas. You prove my point nicely :)
Bill
>It is my contention that Chas is a habitual liar -- as
>evidenced by his oft-changing stories. Here is but one
>example.
>
Isn't this between you and Chas?
Or did you give up and decide to work at it from another direction
other than with the person you have discourse with?
If you intended to speak to Chas, shouldn't you use " you in place of
"Chas" and "your" in place of "his"
The way you have it worded now. It looks like you jumped out of the
ring and started trying to talk the audience into jumping in to help
and protect you!
Bill
Chas
>
> It is my contention that Chas is a habitual liar -- as
> evidenced by his oft-changing stories. Here is but one
> example.
(Snipped dimwitted 'example'-
(got a comp copy- Willem's complimentary copy from you)
of
a video from Paladin (yours- the gift to Willem)
double duh, Bob
Got the other book at the same time, Bob
A comp copy also- your gift to Willem
> No problem Chas. You prove my point nicely :)
> Bob Orlando
Ah, Bob-
Points enough for all- points enough for all-
deep in your heart, you know, Bob- who is lying to you.
And, think about it- I don't give a shit about you-
no reason to lie to you or about you-
not when the truth is so fucking good-
Chas
Chas
> bob_o...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >It is my contention that Chas is a habitual liar -- as
> >evidenced by his oft-changing stories. Here is but one
> >example.
> >
> Or did you give up and decide to work at it from another direction
> other than with the person you have discourse with?
No, now- don't hip him to anything.
I'm quite satisfied with his 'example', his record in the archives, his
posture before history.
I'm satisfied that people can read for themselves- and draw their own
conclusions.
This is the third or fourth time they have questioned my credibility-
each time I have posted the record, posted the scan, whatever. They
accused me of being a drunk, of being profane, of stealing; all a bunch
of witless crap to anyone who even knows me casually.
I'm no angel- I've been a rough man and an eccentric man- but I've never
had a bad thought in my mind about our art, our teachers, our
responsibility to them.
you should have sent them to the *source* first, Bob- he worked fifty
years to be the *first*- and then you put his family's crest on the
cover.
And you people accuse *me* of being an opportunist?
Chas
Chas
>
> It is my contention that Chas is a habitual liar -- as
> evidenced by his oft-changing stories. Here is but one
> example.
(Snipped dimwitted 'example'-
Chas
> bob_o...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >It is my contention that Chas is a habitual liar -- as
> >evidenced by his oft-changing stories. Here is but one
> >example.
> >
bob_o...@my-deja.com
Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> (Snipped dimwitted 'example'-
No need to snip these, Chas. They're good :)
For the record.
November 25, 1997 -- 1st lie (about this topic).
> Subject: Kuntao-Silat Vid Critique
> Date: 1997/11/25
> From: Chas Clements <gryp...@worldnet.att.net>
> Well- sometimes I wish I had done something first and
> this is one of the times. JUST GOT A COMP COPY of Bob
> Orlando's 'Fighting Arts of Indonesia' video FROM PALADIN.
[emphasis added]
-----------------------------------------------------------
July 12, 1999 -- 2nd lie (again, about this topic).
> Subject: Re: Deadly de Thouars
> Date: 1999/07/26
> Author: Chas <gryp...@home.com>
>
> I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT 'COMP COPIES'- unless
> I identified your comp copy to Willem that way-
> PALADIN NEVER GAVE ME ANYTHING; NEVER ASKED- <snip>
> [emphasis added] <snip>
-----------------------------------------------------------
July 26, 1999 -- 3rd lie (again, not the last I'm sure).
> Subject: Re: Deadly de Thouars
> Date: 1999/07/26
> Author: Chas <gryp...@home.com>
>
>>> Well- sometimes I wish I had done something first and
>>> this is one of the times. Just got a comp copy of Bob
>>> Orlando's 'Fighting Arts of Indonesia' video from Paladin.
>
> *Your* comp copy given to Willem, published by Paladin-
> what is your problem? <snip>
-----------------------------------------------------------
July 28, 1999 -- 4th lie (see, not the last).
> Subject: Re: Deadly de Thouars
> Date: 1999/07/28
> Author: Chas <gryp...@home.com>
>
> (got a comp copy- Willem's complimentary copy from you)
> of a video from Paladin (yours- the gift to Willem)
> double duh, Bob
> GOT THE OTHER BOOK AT THE SAME TIME, Bob
> A comp copy also- your gift to Willem
> [emphasis added] <snip>
In summary:
11-25-97 Chas says he received comp copies from Paladin.
07-12-99 Chas says he never said that. (ouch!)
07-26-99 Chas says he received 'my' comp copy from Willem.
07-28-99 Chas now says he received comp copies from BOTH!!
Bob
Richard A Shandross
+It is my contention that Chas is a habitual liar -- as
+evidenced by his oft-changing stories. Here is but one
+example.
I'm going to stick my nose in only for a second to point out a semantic/
grammatical issue:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Grammatical interpretation #1:
"Just GOT A COMP COPY of Bob Orlando's 'Fighting Arts of Indonesia'
video FROM PALADIN."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Grammatical interpretation #2:
"Just got a comp copy of BOB ORLANDO'S 'FIGHTING ARTS OF INDONESIA'
VIDEO FROM PALADIN."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe this is a case of a dangling prepositional phrase, a grammatical
no-no..."The man standing by the drinking fountain in the grey suit is
waiting for his wife." Oh yeah -- where *did* that fountain buy its suit?
Rich Shandross
--
Rich Shandross
r...@mit.edu
http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/ras/home.html
Chas
Bill wrote:
bob_o...@my-deja.com
pe...@alltel.net wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:44:53 GMT, bob_o...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >It is my contention that Chas is a habitual liar -- as
> >evidenced by his oft-changing stories. Here is but one
> >example.
> >
> Isn't this between you and Chas?
> Or did you give up and decide to work at it from another direction
> other than with the person you have discourse with?
> "Chas" and "your" in place of "his"
> The way you have it worded now. It looks like you jumped out of the
> ring and started trying to talk the audience into jumping in to help
> and protect you!
>
> Bill
>
You are correct. This is between Chas and I, and I should
have used "you" in place of "Chas" (actually, I'd rather
have anything in place of "Chas" :) and "your" in place of
"his." I am in no way "trying to talk the audience into
jumping in" (believe me, I'm not near saavy enough
politically to even think of such a thing). My apologies
to all witnesses. My responses to Chas in this matter will
cease (they weren't doing any good anyway). There is just
no way an honorable man can deal with the likes of Chas
when he sets out to attack one's work and reputation. My
apologies for all the stink and my participation in it.
Chas
(snip)
> In summary:
>
> 11-25-97 Chas says he received comp copies from Paladin.
No, Bob-
comp copies of book and video made by Paladin- and, of course, the
publisher of the second book.
You presented these comp copies to Willem and he gave them to me as an
alternative to shitcanning them, but only because I asked.
> 07-12-99 Chas says he never said that. (ouch!)
You characterized them as comp copies *from* Paladin-
Paladin didn't give me the items- they simply published them (the first
book and the video)-
you gave the items to Willem, he shitcanned them, I got them.
> 07-26-99 Chas says he received 'my' comp copy from Willem.
Never said anything else *but* that I received my copies from Willem-
both books and the video- *that* is what is so unfortunate for you.
I have them- your inscription to Willem is inside....
> 07-28-99 Chas now says he received comp copies from BOTH!!
You don't know how to read, Bob
a significant failing in a writer-
Chas
Peter K. Boucher
"JUST GOT A COMP COPY of Bob Orlando's 'Fighting Arts of Indonesia'
video FROM PALADIN." can be read two ways:
(1) Just got it from Paladin.
(2) Just got it, it's made by Paladin.
Chas says (2) is correct, but you say that the mere existence of (1) is
proof of a lie on Chas' part.
You are mistaken, IMHO.
Peter Boucher
bob_o...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> It is my contention that Chas is a habitual liar -- as
> evidenced by his oft-changing stories. Here is but one
> example.
>
> November 25, 1997 -- 1st lie (about this topic).
>
> > Subject: Kuntao-Silat Vid Critique
> > Date: 1997/11/25
> > From: Chas Clements <gryp...@worldnet.att.net>
> > Well- sometimes I wish I had done something first and
> > this is one of the times. JUST GOT A COMP COPY of Bob
> > Orlando's 'Fighting Arts of Indonesia' video FROM PALADIN.
> [emphasis added]
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> July 12, 1999 -- 2nd lie (again, about this topic).
>
> > Subject: Re: Deadly de Thouars
> > Date: 1999/07/26
> > Author: Chas <gryp...@home.com>
> >
> > I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT 'COMP COPIES'- unless
> > I identified your comp copy to Willem that way-
> > PALADIN NEVER GAVE ME ANYTHING; NEVER ASKED- <snip>
> [emphasis added] <snip>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> July 26, 1999 -- 3rd lie (again, not the last I'm sure).
>
> > Subject: Re: Deadly de Thouars
> > Date: 1999/07/26
> > Author: Chas <gryp...@home.com>
> >
> >>> Well- sometimes I wish I had done something first and
> >>> this is one of the times. Just got a comp copy of Bob
> >>> Orlando's 'Fighting Arts of Indonesia' video from Paladin.
> >
> > *Your* comp copy given to Willem, published by Paladin-
> > what is your problem? <snip>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> No problem Chas. You prove my point nicely :)
Peter K. Boucher
[snip]
> No, Bob-
> comp copies of book and video made by Paladin- and, of course, the
> publisher of the second book.
> You presented these comp copies to Willem and he gave them to me as an
> alternative to shitcanning them, but only because I asked.
Why did Willem ask you to write a "Puff Piece" about them if he thought
they were shit?
Peter Boucher
Chas
> I believe this is a case of a dangling prepositional phrase, a grammatical
> no-no..."The man standing by the drinking fountain in the grey suit is
> waiting for his wife." Oh yeah -- where *did* that fountain buy its suit?
thanks- I needed that ;-))
What kind of dangling something is taking someone elses' copyrighted
logo and using it for oneself?
What kind of dangling something is it to try to copyright someone elses'
artwork that is already copyrighted?
I didn't get a comp copy from Paladin, but it looks like they got a copy
of someone elses' artwork for one of their covers- is that a dangler
too?
Chas
Mike Sigman
bob_o...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7nnt8h$gbr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> My apologies
>to all witnesses. My responses to Chas in this matter will
>cease (they weren't doing any good anyway). There is just
>no way an honorable man can deal with the likes of Chas
>when he sets out to attack one's work and reputation. My
>apologies for all the stink and my participation in it.
>
>Bob Orlando
Er, I'm a witness and I was hoping you really had something on Chas. But
all I saw was a prolonged attempted skewering because Chas used the word
"comp" without considering the ramifications of who comped whom and who's
comp it was first and all of that. If he's screwed up, I'd have used it to
roast him the next time he crossed me wrong, but frankly all I see is you
playing around the use of *one word* to try to nail him away as a "liar".
Too little, too prolonged, too vacuous.
Mike Sigman
bob_o...@my-deja.com
"Peter K. Boucher" <jiu-...@pedrosauer.com> wrote:
> Bob,
> "JUST GOT A COMP COPY of Bob Orlando's 'Fighting Arts of Indonesia'
> video FROM PALADIN." can be read two ways:
> (1) Just got it from Paladin.
> (2) Just got it, it's made by Paladin.
>
> Chas says (2) is correct, but you say that the mere existence of (1)
is
> proof of a lie on Chas' part.
>
> You are mistaken, IMHO.
>
> Peter Boucher
Peter,
You are correct. You can interpret the statement as you suggest. Bill
Clinton would. Regardless, I should never have allowed myself to be
drawn into this thing as far as I have. As I've already said to another
RMA reader, my responses to Chas in this matter will cease (the only
reputation sullied by it has been my own -- pretty stupid on my part
I'd say). My apologies to all for allowing this to continue this long.
Erik Harris
>> Subject: Kuntao-Silat Vid Critique
>> Date: 1997/11/25
>> Well- sometimes I wish I had done something first and
>> Orlando's 'Fighting Arts of Indonesia' video FROM PALADIN.
> [emphasis added]
>In summary:
>11-25-97 Chas says he received comp copies from Paladin.
err, Chas said he received comp copies of the video from Paladin.. The
sentence could be just as easily read as "comp copy from Paladin" as it could
be read as "the video from Paladin." (i.e. the video was from Paladin, and he
got a comp copy from somewhere). Apparently Chas meant the latter. It's
pretty simple. Whether or not Chas is a liar, you don't have a leg to stand
on when it comes to this particular argument.
Erik Harris esh7@c_rnell.edu
http://w3.to/erik ICQ: 2610172
Chinese Martial Arts Assoc @ Cornell: http://w3.to/CMAAC/
To avoid Spam-bots, my address at the top is INCORRECT.
Change the underscore to an "o".
Bill
>err, Chase said he received comp copies of the video from Paladin.. The
>be read as "the video from Paladin." (i.e. the video was from Paladin, and he
>got a comp copy from somewhere). Apparently Chas meant the latter. It's
>pretty simple. Whether or not Chas is a liar, you don't have a leg to stand
>on when it comes to this particular argument.
I believe that is why he referred his previous post in the third party
manner. He knew his argument was weak and needed to see where
he stood as far as support and backing.
Maybe we should refer him to the local trolls and name changers.
I personally have had several dealings with Chase and it will take
more
than a couple of feeble attempts at playing with words to create
mistrust! Chase has always delivered as promised!
Perk
Randall Goodwin
>>That was
>>during all that 'racist' tripe you guys were trying out- you remember,
>>after Gitlin pulled the knife, so poorly.
>>
>
>You mean when Steve made some rude comment about Jews and Gitlin drew his
>blade. Yep I remember.
>
>>It's been so long- you know, seeing as you wouldn't allow me to post to
>>your 'silat list'-
>>heh-
>>
Bob wouldn't let me on his list either, due to a post from Uncle that
I forwarded.
>>Chas
>
>
>Salam Hormat,
>Roberto Torres
>Talio Self Defense Academy
>Pencak Silat Perisai Setia (Harimau Sikap Baru)
>
I have been trying very assiduously to avoid getting involved in any
more controversies on RMA. I previously have posted several things for
Uncle at his request, but somehow I didn't find the results to my
liking. I have alienated people who I had considered friends and
greatly regret that. Roberto, Chas and Steve all fall into that
category.
RE: Roberto Torres' statements
For the record I must state that I was there when Gitlin pulled the
knife and it had nothing at all to do with any racist comments. Rather
Art Gitlin was trying to make a point that a concealed weapon which
was pulled without warning couldn't be defended against. Well the
person to whom he was speaking was Tom Kair (sic) who practices Sayoc
Kali and Tom had his knife out and placed on Gitlin's hand before
Gitlin could complete the draw. This was with Tom unforwarned. While I
disagree with any (what I consider) bigoted statements made by Steve
and I know that Art is Jewish (many of my good friends are), I find it
unfair to characterize this incident as having any basis other than
Art trying to illustrate a point (and failing). Now I was standing on
Art's left when this happened and I have plenty of pictures to
establish who else was there.
RE: Bob Orlando's characterization of Chas as dishonest
I have found Chas to be a knowledgeable and honorable person and do
not know him to habitually resort to lying. While I know that I have
made comments regarding his affiliation to our group in the past, I
haven't questioned his knowledge (too strongly) or his ability. And if
I have a bit, some of it could be attributed to the way that these
things tend to escalate rather quickly on the Internet and that
sometimes we click send before we review the potential conseqences of
our actions.
A comment on Bob Orlando's book.
I recieved a COMP copy of the book, published by Paladin, (I don't
know why anyone would go to the effort of misconstruing of Chas'
statements to make his comments seem to be a lie. It is too easy to
consider that there are other possibly correct explanations. And after
two years if he didn't remember how he characterized his reception of
the COMP copy I don't blame him.) I got my copy from George Morin.
I found the opening rather offensive with it's characterization of the
Senior's of Uncle as not knowing the application of their system. The
only senior that I am aware of that Bob habitually sees is George
Morin who helped him with the book, what a thanks to George that
characterization was. Now Bob doesn't know me very well except for a
few social contacts at Uncle's home. I can't characterize his art or
skills but I resented that he commented on what I personally know
about Uncle's art (in his generalization about the seniors) when he
hasn't even seen me practicing it, and has never taken the time to
find out what I know. But Bob with his videotapes believes he knows
the system better than those who have actively practiced it and taught
it for over 20 years, maybe I'll buy some BJJ tapes and become a
master of that too.
RE: Bob's use of the Logo
The Logo that Bob used on his book was the Serak Logo made by Victor
and adopted by Paul. I understand that Paul was quite upset at the
unauthorized use of his logo. I am not aware that Bob received
permission for it's use, but the Silat Pony could comment for Victor I
am sure. Uncle's logo was never like that. Oh yeah I was told Bob
added a feather to avoid legal complications, but I never counted
them.
RE:the kuntaosilatdethouars website.
The site was built and is maintained by Roger Brockman. While Roger
makes every effort at keeping it current and accurate it might reflect
current political favor. Roger has done a fine job and his efforts are
appreciated, but I am not convinced that Uncle has exercised editorial
rights on the site, rather I believe that he is trusting to Rogers
good judgement. Due to the size of our organization I am sure that not
everyone is mentioned. I believe that Roberto's inclusion does not
make him a specific rank in our group, but rather recognizes his
martial arts skills. Now these comments reflect my beliefs and Roger
is welcome to correct me if I am wrong, as I have not asked his take
on this.
Re: Roberto's not seeing Chas on the family gathering video
I taught at that same seminar and haven't seen the video at all. But I
did see Chas teaching there. I also saw Bob Orlando teaching there.
Bob left when he was done teaching and wasn't allowed to film. That
seminar was held in Longmont at Russ Novell's school. Now I assume
that with the seminar running for two days and with four simultaneous
sessions, that whoever edited made decisions to exclude certain
material, unless the video is 20 hours. So someone's not being there
in the video is not really relevant except to those editorial
decisions.
RE: My credentials
Actually other than Uncle, I have been teaching the system
continuously longer than any other person (over 20 years). I was also
the first Tongkat teacher other than the Brothers, at the Highland Art
Center (a space graciously provided for me by Chas). Now I doubt that
the current Tongkat resembles this old early Tongkat but this was at
the time when Victor was my roomate with Steve and all three brothers
(excluding Maurice whom I have never met) were in Colorado and on good
terms. I am also ranked Guru Muda under Paul de Thouars in Serak. This
was before the existence of Paul's Bhukti Negara.
And yes, I did relay the messages removing Art, Roberto, Steve, and
Chas from our group. With Art and Roberto it was done with Uncle
standing over my shoulder. With Steve and Chas it was done consequent
to a phone request. In the future I would hope to know better than
doing this and damaging my personal relationships. But I actually
thought that I was introducing some moderation into these actions and
was worried that someone else would end up posting something with a
greater adverse effect on everyone involved.
Guru Tuan Randall Goodwin
Kuntao Silat de Thouars
Teaching in Montreal at the
Gelinas Academy of Martial Arts
1121 St Catherine West, third floor
Chas
Because he didn't want to offend Paladin who published the book and
video and was set to publish his. Because I wanted a way to publish
*Willems* videos (if you like Bob's videos, you'll love Bills). Because
Bob, Stewart and George are part of kuntao silat and everybody else is
not- and you support your brothers' endeavor when dealing with
strangers. Because I was the guy that wrote stuff; 'historian' for the
group, publicist, editor and redactor, articles and that sort of thing.
See, you're talking about a good length of time, years, over which these
events have unfolded. You're talking about the changing of family,
teacher/student and personal (much less, business) relationships on a
very basic level. You're talking a hard money angle, a hard stylistic
angle, a historical look at the content and effectuation of the style.
I'm involved in them all, very personally.
Somebody asked; I said I thought the book sucked. I looked it over again
tonight and it is suckier than I first had thought. I would be happy to
discuss why I think that the book sucked. The video is worse.
Then Bob jumped in and called me some names; no substance, just the
names.
Then he started playing off of some dim grammatical construction of
mine, trying to pull a 'lie' out of it.
All of that was supposed to impugn my credibility. Well, it either did
or it did not.
That got me to thinking about the logo again.
You see, *every* advertisement, *every* copy of the book; *everything*
has Victor de Thouars logo staring at you from the front. Bob
*copyrighted* the logo! My first teaching cred has that logo on it and
it's from two years *before* Bob ever joined the group; his use can't
predate *that*.
He took the logo line for line- I mean that he took the original artwork
by Victor de Thouars, burned out the fine detail photographically, made
it look like it is cut from paper (computer design I would think) and
added a tri-color banner in the background. And took it for his own-
line for line.
Now; he is not of Victors' branch- other than a seminar or something, I
don't think that Bob *ever* studied with Victor. Other than Victor; and
by his affection, his brothers, *no-one* uses their personal family
system logo. Willems' art has a different logo, derivative arts have
different logos- that logo is not used by other than Serak
practitioners. He never even mentions Victors' name (I don't believe),
certainly no attribution as to the artwork or what it stands for.
The well-known trademark logo, then, is not available to just anyone
that would like its' credential and its' cachet. This book is not about
Serak, it is barely about kuntao silat.
Now; the basic information in the book is ok- Bob's not an idiot and
we're talking about the same art- incidentally, this is not any sort of
survey of information, all of Bob's information comes from a very
specific group of practitioners- I do think his posture is bad, his
distancing is worse- no levers; it's just not very good kuntao *or*
silat.
That is not to say that it isn't a reasonable play on somebody's kempo
or something.
So- he cops the logo after never even studying with the man who's logo
it is, he writes a self aggrandizing book using it's cachet on the cover
and *then* has the chutzpah to call others 'liars' and opportunists,
bemoaning 'something something' about an 'honorable man'?
It's tacky-
Chas
Chas
> Bob,
> "JUST GOT A COMP COPY of Bob Orlando's 'Fighting Arts of Indonesia'
> (1) Just got it from Paladin.
> (2) Just got it, it's made by Paladin.
>
> Chas says (2) is correct, but you say that the mere existence of (1) is
> proof of a lie on Chas' part.
> You are mistaken, IMHO.
And I'll tell you; if I were going to prove that a man were an 'habitual
liar', a legalistic construction of a poor grammatical choice in syntax
would not be my first example to engage his lack of credibility in the
public eye. I'd have to find something really juicy; lying at it's
worst- deep lies, destructive lies, lies to bemuse all with their
lyingness.
I might say; 'Did this habitual liar ever take someone elses' work
product and call it his own?' 'Did this habitual liar ever take a
credential that wasn't given, in permission, to him?' 'Did this habitual
liar seek to advance his own name over that of his teachers' or his
seniors by flying their credential?
You know, if it was me-
Chas
Erik Harris
>has Victor de Thouars logo staring at you from the front. Bob
>*copyrighted* the logo! My first teaching cred has that logo on it and
You can't copyright something that someone else created. He can claim to hold
the copyright, but if anyone can show that it was created by someone else, his
claim to the copyright is meaningless.
If he trademarked it, that might be another story. I know a little bit about
copyright laws, and even less about trademark laws.
Chas
> In article <379FEAD6...@home.com>, Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> >has Victor de Thouars logo staring at you from the front. Bob
> >*copyrighted* the logo! My first teaching cred has that logo on it and
>
> You can't copyright something that someone else created. He can claim to hold
> the copyright, but if anyone can show that it was created by someone else, his
> claim to the copyright is meaningless.
In a later post, Randall said that he added a feather to the garuda
(sort of an eagle) to evade the legal issue- talk about emulating Bill
Clintons' legalistic approach!
"Whahl, Ayit depends on whaht 'feathuh' means"
The publishing of a book is a commercial enterprise- it's all for money.
Putting Victors' Serak logo on his book added a huge cachet to Bobs'
salability. People all over the world recognize that logo as being from
a very strong lineage, and they never heard of 'Bob's Kuntao Heaven and
Stormdoor Factory'. In fact, Bob only mentions 'serak' once in the book
and it is simply a name in a listing of names- he mentions the artist of
the logo not at all and the other holder of the logo, Paul, not at all.
It's like buying a big new car with a Cadillac sticker and finding a
Yugo when you open the door. It may be reasonable transportation, but it
isn't what you paid for.
> If he trademarked it, that might be another story. I know a little bit about
> copyright laws, and even less about trademark laws.
No, it's quite obvious that he has attempted to copyright it for his own
usage. His school logo (available on his site) is the _*same emblem*_
with a Christian cross and a kempo sash superimposed over it- sort of
like drawing a mustache on Mickey Mouse and calling the result your new
cartoon character; Disney don't put up with that shit.
Even after the owners of the logo were courteous and civil in their
displeasure about his preemption of their prerogative, he has continued
to use anothers' property as his own.
It's shameful.
Chas
Russell L. Rader
> In article <379FEAD6...@home.com>, Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> >has Victor de Thouars logo staring at you from the front. Bob
> >*copyrighted* the logo! My first teaching cred has that logo on it and
>
> You can't copyright something that someone else created. He can claim to
hold
> the copyright, but if anyone can show that it was created by someone
else, his
> claim to the copyright is meaningless.
>
about
> copyright laws, and even less about trademark laws.
I don't know the legal claptrap either, but I did hear about a man who
decided to copyright or trademark (don't know which) the Bell TelCo logo,
after he found out that it wasn't already. Then he tried to charge Bell an
arm and a leg to keep using "his" logo. Of course, Bell's army of lawyers
sued him into the Dark Ages.
Russ
Chas
> I don't know the legal claptrap either, but I did hear about a man who
> decided to copyright or trademark (don't know which) the Bell TelCo logo,
> after he found out that it wasn't already. Then he tried to charge Bell an
> arm and a leg to keep using "his" logo. Of course, Bell's army of lawyers
> sued him into the Dark Ages.
Of course Victor de Thouars has sole rights to his own drawing. It is
copyrighted, it is a trademark, it is instantly recognized all over the
world as the symbol of Serak.
Bob Orlando never did Serak; he never studied with Victor de Thouars, or
with Paul de Thouars- he appropriated the logo without permission
(correct me if I'm wrong, Bob), he tried to evade the legal consequences
by adding one (1) feather to the tail (as I understand). He would have
done better to add groucho glasses and a mustache.
I don't know what Paladins' position is in the publication of someones'
artwork without permission. Perhaps that feather is enough for them to
feel like it is original artwork by Bob. It does seem to me that they
would be more sensitive to such gratuitous appropriation of someone
elses' work product. He would not have added the feather if he thought
it was the right thing to do in the first place.
When Bob took the logo, he took everything that goes with it; all their
work, all their study, all their time. Does anyone really think his book
would have been as attractive if it said 'jee doo tu' on the front
instead of intimating that it was about Serak or at least had been
'approved' by the Serak people?
Tchuh!
As if!
And, didn't any of the other de Thouars students see the cover before it
came out? Didn't any of them say to him; 'Stop, now?' Didn't any of
Paladins' people recognize the mark from the other submissions that they
had received?
"Who steals my purse steals trash- who steals my good name steals
treasure indeed"
A 'treasure' has been sullied.
Chas
Drew
Chas,
Drew here. I hope you read this and reply without swearing up a storm, or
bringing up our past argument, or anything else to avoid the issue.
I've been reading your posts with Bob Orlando with some interest. I am not
aware of all the details or your dispute. One thing though has come up and
is now a big issue, especially in your character assesment of Bob Orlando.
Mind you I am not defending him in any way.
You keep claiming that Bob stole the symbol for his book from Victor. I am
hoping that this is the result of some misinformation. The symbol is not
Victors. He may use it now, but it was not created by Victor.
Now don't jump the gun. I am not contesting anything other point than where
the symbol came from. Paul de Thouars' good friend, who is an artist, drew
the Symbol, with the Pauls guidence. As you know, I'm sure, Pendekar was
not happy with the use of the symbol by Bob Orlando without his permission
or knowledge.
I am being very tactful about how I write this. I am assuming that you had
some misinformation like I said. If I am wrong, I'm sure you'll let me
know.
Drew
Chas
> Drew here. I hope you read this and reply without swearing up a storm, or
> bringing up our past argument, or anything else to avoid the issue.
Uh, ok-
I didn't avoid our last issue- I didn't avoid the issue with Bob and I
won't avoid this one either.
And, as I told Bob Orlando- I am not profane and I don't swear. A
vulgarism is not either profanity or swearing.
So, go ahead-
> You keep claiming that Bob stole the symbol for his book from Victor. I am
> hoping that this is the result of some misinformation. The symbol is not
> Victors. He may use it now, but it was not created by Victor.
Interesting- this is the first time in twenty-two years that I have
heard this position stated thus. I have spoken with Victor about it at
length over a long period of time (vis-a-vis the use of the logo in
other circumstances, not just Bobs' use) and it has never been presented
as anything except his personal work product. Paul certainly had major
input into the composition, but the drawing has always been acknowledged
as Victors'.
The use of the logo and its' stylistic identification has always been
restricted to the de Thouars family and to Serak.
> Now don't jump the gun. I am not contesting anything other point than where
> the symbol came from. Paul de Thouars' good friend, who is an artist, drew
> the Symbol, with the Pauls guidence.
Name the artist-
That can't be too difficult to do- there is no need for secrecy
Name him.
> As you know, I'm sure, Pendekar was
> not happy with the use of the symbol by Bob Orlando without his permission
> or knowledge.
An understatement. They were, and are, absolutely livid.
They were not happy when he appropriated the symbol for his school
advertising in the mid-eighties, they were not happy when he
appropriated the symbol for his book and they are not happy about his
usage of it for his style logo with the addition of the cross and the
kempo sash.
They have been very graceful about suing him or his associates (till now
anyway), but they have not been happy about the inappropriate usage of
the symbol by someone who never studied with either of them.
> I am being very tactful about how I write this. I am assuming that you had
> some misinformation like I said. If I am wrong, I'm sure you'll let me
> know.
Well, of course this question is not as easily solved as my credential
question was.
I don't know of my own knowledge who drew the symbol. I know that Victor
is a fine artist and draughtsman- he has done the calligraphy for the
group for many years and he has been credited with the symbol's artwork
for twenty years.
All you have to do is name the artist and the question would be
answered. I'm sure that Victor would know the person and have a certain
interest in commenting on the subject.
Speaking as a trained artist, an appraiser and expert witness, I would
have to say that the logo/symbol is in Victors' style of drawing- I
would be very surprised if Paul had someone else do it.
As I say, the symbol is at the top of my first teaching credential
(1982), so it pre-dates any possible proper usage by Bob Orlando as that
is at least two years prior to his 'joining' any instruction by any of
the de Thouars family.
And, lest we forget- your caviling apologia aside- you have not posted
your name as you promised to do.
I still consider you to be something that creeps upon the ground like a
reptile.
Chas