alternative air conditioning
35002...@uwovax.uwo.ca
there are alternatives to CFC,s and HCFC's for
air conditioners.
-Cryodynamics Inc. produces a home refrigerator tha
cools with helium .
-General Cryogenics Inc. produces liquid nitrogen and
liquid carbon dioxide units for refrigerated cargo.
-Climatron Corp. produces mobile evaporative [simple
convectional] cooling air conditoners for cars and buses that work very
well in non-humid environments.
-Albers Air Conditioning Corp. produces evaporative air
conditioners that use lithium bromide and work well in
all climates.
for the scientists are these safer alternatives; they may
not contribute to ozone depletion but are there other effects
equally dangerous?
comments?
Jocelyn J. Paquette
Bob Ewing
London, Ontario
.
Robert H. Woodman
>Is Du Pont duping us?
>
>there are alternatives to CFC,s and HCFC's for
>air conditioners.
>...<deleted source list of a.c. alternatives>....
>for the scientists are these safer alternatives; they may
>not contribute to ozone depletion but are there other effects
>equally dangerous?
>
>comments?
>
>Jocelyn J. Paquette
>Bob Ewing
>London, Ontario
>.
I don't have a comment so much as a question. Are these alternative
air conditioning sources at a price level and availability that make
it possible for people, scientific researchers, and businesses (par-
ticularly small businesses) to buy them? Remember, without forced
legislation (not *always* a good thing even in environmental law),
people will usually buy what is affordable, not what is the most en-
vironmentally sound.
Bob Woodman
Internet: wood...@osu.edu OR dr...@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu
Paul Dietz
>
>there are alternatives to CFC,s and HCFC's for
>air conditioners.
>
>-Cryodynamics Inc. produces a home refrigerator tha
> cools with helium .
Excuse me, but *refrigerators* and *air conditioners* are different
animals. If I recall correctly, home air conditioners already use
a HCFC, and have for years (CFC-22, I think, with a residence time
in the atmosphere of about 5(?) years).
As for refrigerators, they contain much more CFC in their *insulation*
than in the refrigerant. CFCs are nice because they have low thermal
conductivity. Replacing them in this application is not trivial,
since consumer decisions are strongly affected by the usable volume of
the refrigerator. However, it has recently been found that, contrary
to expectations, some HCFCs are just as good as CFCs as blowing agents
for insulation (it had been thought they would give insulation about
10% less effective). High performance non-foam insulations have been
looked at (vacuum-filled metal panels, for example), but I don't think
they've been competitive or sufficiently reliable yet.
Paul F. Dietz
di...@cs.rochester.edu
Matthew T. Russotto
>
>there are alternatives to CFC,s and HCFC's for
>air conditioners.
>
>-Cryodynamics Inc. produces a home refrigerator tha
> cools with helium .
Price. How much does liquid helium go for nowadays?
>-General Cryogenics Inc. produces liquid nitrogen and
> liquid carbon dioxide units for refrigerated cargo.
Price again. (Liquid C02? Seems pretty **** unlikely. C02 sublimes, it
doesn't melt. Or are there pressures at which it will?)
Besides, there is also the problem of cooling the N2 in the first place.
>-Climatron Corp. produces mobile evaporative [simple
> convectional] cooling air conditoners for cars and buses that work very
> well in non-humid environments.
Ooops, that last would seem to rule it out in a lot of the country. What
is evaporated, BTW, water? (a pretty valuable commodity in some of the
non-humid environments...)
>
>-Albers Air Conditioning Corp. produces evaporative air
> conditioners that use lithium bromide and work well in
> all climates.
Lithium bromide? Isn't that stuff quite toxic?
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@eng.umd.edu russ...@wam.umd.edu
][, ][+, ///, ///+, //e, //c, IIGS, //c+ --- Any questions?
Hey! Bush has NO LIPS!
bma...@cdp.uucp
Then there's trees. Plant on the South side of house. And they
don't cut off much sun in Winter. Amazing!.
_____________________________________________________
| Ben Masel (cdp!bma...@labrea.stanford.edu) |
| Republican Candidate for Governor (Sept 11 primary) |
| Campaign contibutions up to $19.90 may be sent to |
| Masel for Governor Hemp for Wisconsin |
| POB 3481 Madison, WI 53701 |
| Co-publisher of ZENGER |
| "The Nation's Underground Newspaper" |
| E-Mail me your Postal (hardcopy) |
| address for a free sample. |
| POB 3481 Madison, WI 53704 |
|_____________________________________________________|
35002...@uwovax.uwo.ca
> In article <6614.2...@uwovax.uwo.ca> 35002...@uwovax.uwo.ca writes:
>>Is Du Pont duping us?
>>
>>there are alternatives to CFC,s and HCFC's for
>>air conditioners.
>>
>>-Cryodynamics Inc. produces a home refrigerator tha
>> cools with helium .
>
> Price. How much does liquid helium go for nowadays?
Put price aside for the moment and answer teh question asked.>
>>-General Cryogenics Inc. produces liquid nitrogen and
>> liquid carbon dioxide units for refrigerated cargo.
> Price again. (Liquid C02? Seems pretty **** unlikely. C02 sublimes, it
> doesn't melt. Or are there pressures at which it will?)
> Besides, there is also the problem of cooling the N2 in the first place.
same comment on price, how about some specifics on rest of claims.
>
>>-Climatron Corp. produces mobile evaporative [simple
>> convectional] cooling air conditoners for cars and buses that work very
>> well in non-humid environments.
>
> Ooops, that last would seem to rule it out in a lot of the country. What
> is evaporated, BTW, water? (a pretty valuable commodity in some of the
> non-humid environments...)
>>
>>-Albers Air Conditioning Corp. produces evaporative air
>> conditioners that use lithium bromide and work well in
>> all climates.
>
> Lithium bromide? Isn't that stuff quite toxic?
ah, a relevant question and the one or part thereof of what
was orginally asked.
answers anyone?
> --
> Matthew T. Russotto russ...@eng.umd.edu russ...@wam.umd.edu
> ][, ][+, ///, ///+, //e, //c, IIGS, //c+ --- Any questions?
> Hey! Bush has NO LIPS!
Don Lewis
>In article <6614.2...@uwovax.uwo.ca> 35002...@uwovax.uwo.ca writes:
>>Is Du Pont duping us?
>>
>>there are alternatives to CFC,s and HCFC's for
>>air conditioners.
>>
>>-Cryodynamics Inc. produces a home refrigerator tha
>> cools with helium .
>
>Price. How much does liquid helium go for nowadays?
And how much energy does it take to produce it?
--
Don "Truck" Lewis Harris Semiconductor
Internet: d...@mlb.semi.harris.com PO Box 883 MS 62A-028
Phone: (407) 729-5205 Melbourne, FL 32901
Ian Turton
#>-Cryodynamics Inc. produces a home refrigerator tha
#> cools with helium .
#
#Price. How much does liquid helium go for nowadays?
liquid helium costs us arround 4 ukpounds a litre, but I seriously doubt
that they are planing to use liquid helium, its much too cold and requires
quite a lot of care in its handling. I would have thought that this system
is going to use helium gas as a working fliud, which works out lots cheaper
#
#>-General Cryogenics Inc. produces liquid nitrogen and
#> liquid carbon dioxide units for refrigerated cargo.
#Price again. (Liquid C02? Seems pretty **** unlikely. C02 sublimes, it
#doesn't melt. Or are there pressures at which it will?)
you can get liquid co2 all you have to do is decrease the pressure at low temps
after all isn't it liquid co2 you get in co2 fire extinguisers
#
#--
#Matthew T. Russotto russ...@eng.umd.edu russ...@wam.umd.edu
#][, ][+, ///, ///+, //e, //c, IIGS, //c+ --- Any questions?
# Hey! Bush has NO LIPS!
--
Ian Turton Dept of Geophysics and geology
I Turton @uk.ac.edinburgh JCMB, Kings Buildings
I...@uk.ac.edinburgh.cs.tardis Mayfield Rd, Edinburgh
***If you don't like my views sue my boss, he'll love it.***
arr...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
> In article <6614.2...@uwovax.uwo.ca> 35002...@uwovax.uwo.ca writes:
>
>>-General Cryogenics Inc. produces liquid nitrogen and
>> liquid carbon dioxide units for refrigerated cargo.
>
> Price again. (Liquid C02? Seems pretty **** unlikely. C02 sublimes, it
> doesn't melt. Or are there pressures at which it will?)
Pretty **** <common>, actually :-) ...
You are of course correct that at normal room temperature and pressure,
dry ice sublimes. But under pressure CO2 gas can be liquified at moderately
low temperatures (about -20 deg C, as I recall).
________________________________________________________________________
Ray Arritt |
Dept. of Physics and Astronomy |
Univ. of Kansas |
Lawrence, KS 66045 |
arr...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu |
arr...@ukanvax.bitnet |
35002...@uwovax.uwo.ca
> In article <6614.2...@uwovax.uwo.ca> 35002...@uwovax.uwo.ca writes:
>>Is Du Pont duping us?
>>
>>there are alternatives to CFC,s and HCFC's for
>>air conditioners.
>>
>>-Cryodynamics Inc. produces a home refrigerator tha
>> cools with helium .
>> [ ... ]
>
> Excuse me, but *refrigerators* and *air conditioners* are different
> animals. If I recall correctly, home air conditioners already use
> a HCFC, and have for years (CFC-22, I think, with a residence time
> in the atmosphere of about 5(?) years).
thanks for stating the obvious but an answer to the question at the
end of the posting would be more appropriate.
>
> As for refrigerators, they contain much more CFC in their *insulation*
> than in the refrigerant. CFCs are nice because they have low thermal
> conductivity. Replacing them in this application is not trivial,
> since consumer decisions are strongly affected by the usable volume of
> the refrigerator. However, it has recently been found that, contrary
> to expectations, some HCFCs are just as good as CFCs as blowing agents
> for insulation (it had been thought they would give insulation about
> 10% less effective). High performance non-foam insulations have been
> looked at (vacuum-filled metal panels, for example), but I don't think
> they've been competitive or sufficiently reliable yet.
>
> Paul F. Dietz
> di...@cs.rochester.edu
this is the type of response that takes the topic on a detour, the question
raised in the orignal post goes unanswered and a side topic is
introduced; the points made are interesting but relevant in the
context of the orginal post.