Behringer lies
marvin...@my-dejanews.com
manager of Behringer, regarding Ulrich Behringer's history of theft and lies.
Inasmuch as Aphex was the first company targeted by Behringer and inasmuch as
I was directly and personally involved during the entire episode, everything
that is contained in this message is the truth as I know it. Liedel stated
that "the Aphex case was mainly about a dispute about Aphex's patent and Uli
Behringer's own patent application". That is a lie. The truth is that
Behringer copied the Aural Exciter Type B, right down to the circuit board
and the manual, and called it the Typ F. The front panel was made to look
very similar to our unit. The manual, being so blatant a copy, caused people
who bought the Behringer copy to call our distributor in Germany for service.
When it became clear to us that Behringer was going to be more than a garage
operation, we first sent a legal letter to him demanding that he stop and
then filed a patent suit. To suggest that Behringer had a patent filing
himself is also a lie. He abused the legal system in Germany to delay
justice. It took six years to get the court to finally issue an judgment of
patent infringement and forced him to stop selling infringing products.
Behringer then told the world that he 'discovered' that it was better to not
generate harmonics- that was after he 'invented' his own harmonic generator
which just happened to be a copy of the Aural Exciter. After the
infringement was proven in court (not out of court as Liedel stated), the
next step was to establish damages. That took another two years through the
delay tactics that Behringer continued to use. The court finally caught on to
his games. On the night before the last hearing, Behringer claimed to have a
cold and asked for another delay. I had flown from LA to Frankfurt and the
judge denied the request. At the hearing the lawyer for Behringer was
admonished by the judge and told to agree to pay an amount which would be
acceptable to us. If that agreement was not reached within a short time, the
judge would force the settlement amount and also force Behringer to pay all
court fees and our legal costs. Behringer paid 800,000DM. That amount was
small compared to the benefit he received, but at least the world knows that
he was found guilty of patent infringement and that he had to pay a
significant, albeit insufficient, sum. Behringer's attack on our products
was not limited to the Aural Exciter. He tried to copy our 612 gate. He could
not get our VCA so he used the VCA that we had used previously. We had to use
a heat spreader on our new VCA which was not necessary on the previous
design. Behringer glued a useless piece of metal on his VCA's showing that he
either did not understand what was going on in the unit, only making a poor
copy of it, or he simply tried to copy as exactly as possible. He also copied
our manual- page for page, illustration for illustration. The court
immediately issued an order for him to stop and reimbursed us for our legal
fees. I cannot comment directly on his raids on other companies' products,
but based on my experience I know that he used similar tactics. He not only
screws other manufacturers, but I have direct knowledge of him screwing a
supplier. He has set up distributors and, after the distributor has done all
the hard work, hired one individual from that distributor to set up his own
distribution. The mistake I naively made was thinking that once people knew
who this miscreant was, they would never want to do business with him or buy
his products. People turn a blind eye when there is a possibility to make a
quick buck or buy a product which, on the surface looks like the original,
but is cheaper. I have absolutely no illusions that this message will change
anybody's business methods or purchasing decisions. I just hope that those
who are ethically challenged do not complain too loudly if they ever get
ripped off. I also hope that people who do have some sense of right and wrong
get a little twinge whenever they see a Behringer product in a rack.
Especially now that they know the truth.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Wildabst
struck me as direct copies of the leaders in the given application. I urge
everyone else to not buy them, too and maybe we can make them go away.
Phil
2DJVengac
'settled out of court',
Behinger didn;t show up (so he's 'out of court'),
you proved infrongement, they awarded you recompense so it got decided
or 'settled'....
looks like a fine example of how to lie with the right words.
Stephen Cavender
Paul Wolff
idiots (Berr.) that you had to post this. I remember calling you when you were
winding down the Lunch Box product line, and I simply asked you if you would mind
if I started making the same thing, and even offered to purchase the last few
parts if you wanted, which you declined, as you wanted them for possible future
repairs. You said that it was fine, and I started making them, and continue
making them, as the Lunch Boxes are very popular. I have never tried to take the
glory and have always passed that credit your way. I call it respect. I now
have the same problem with people like the Brent Averill types, who makes cheap
copies "our" racks, without ever saying "hey would you mind?". They repaint and
use our logos, they use our names on their panels, they diss our newer models as
"bad sounding" so they can sell old stuff, etc. It dilutes the quality that we
all try to achieve. These "cloners" don't pay liability insurance, employee
benefits, business fees, property taxes, hazard use fees, their products are not
UL listed, they don't meet CE requirements, they do not adhere to OSHA standards,
but they sure do sell them cheaper. They may not even buy the software needed to
run their tiny businesses. They basically make their glory by leaching off of
products that others have spent qualified time and money designing. Its so easy
to copy what we all do, and then share in the glory and the spotlight as some
visionary, and get credit. I would like to see these shitheads design some
products of their own, rent booth space and really see if they have the stomach
to get graded by the industry only to find out that they suck. Then they can go
work in gas stations.
Paul
Milton Finks
knock-off artist! And his copies of other folks work is done by Chinese slave
labor. I would'nt by his junk at any price.
Milton Finks
Fletcher
> I now
> have the same problem with people like the Brent Averill types, who makes cheap
> copies "our" racks, without ever saying "hey would you mind?".
Well let me jump in and stick my hand in a blender here...copying a
frame isn't a bad thing, nor is it any kind of propietary thing. The
modules are 'X' x 'Y', the rear edge connectors are in a specific place,
there's not a lot of creativity involved other than the materials
chosen. Obviously, you do mind. Let me also mention that you don't
need a licence to recondition and repackage. The stuff was made by the
original company, there's no way to change that.
They repaint and
> use our logos, they use our names on their panels, they diss our newer models as
> "bad sounding" so they can sell old stuff, etc. It dilutes the quality that we
> all try to achieve.
I believe on the Brent front, he's repackaging old modules and bits in a
useable form. I can't say where I can find a problem with that (having
done a similar thing for years). In our case it was with Neve stuff,
which while they are still in existance, they exist in none of their
original glory. You can't tell me that the new Neve stuff [with the
exception of the 1081 reissue] can hold a candle to the old stuff.
As for the API stuff, Brent's is what it is. They're old API modules,
what do you want him to call them? Using your logo? Granted, I could
be talking out of my ass here [and probably am, not having seen one of
his units in a while] but from what I could tell he was merely trying to
present the modules for what they are...they're API modules, what's he
supposed to call them?
I've heard the same nonsense about the new modules not sounding as good
as the old modules, but it's just nonsense from the 'vintage' craze.
The fact that API is selling desks and selling modules is testiment that
the new stuff is every bit as good, and in my not so humble opinion,
superior to the old stuff.
Most of the repackagers, with a few exceptions, don't bother to put in
fresh capacitors, they don't bother to do any reconditioning work other
than cleaning the face panels. This is where the problem arises. The
older stuff gets a great reputation, then get's repackaged by people
that don't do it right. Brent, however, isn't one of these that I can
tell. He seems to at least recondition the stuff before sale.
I have other issues like power supply and support material issues, but
they're nothing I haven't mentioned to Brent directly.
These "cloners" don't pay liability insurance, employee
> benefits, business fees, property taxes, hazard use fees, their products are not
> UL listed, they don't meet CE requirements, they do not adhere to OSHA standards,
> but they sure do sell them cheaper. They may not even buy the software needed to
> run their tiny businesses. They basically make their glory by leaching off of
> products that others have spent qualified time and money designing.
Repackaging and copying are two entirely different things. I can't
speak for anyone else, but I know that we carried several million
dollars worth of liability insurance, and paid off every fuckin' piece
of shit government agency that came a callin'. I can't speak for any
one else on that one, but I know we had the same overhead as any other
manufacturing concern. We got out because we saw the demand for old
stuff waining. We also ran into 'lowball' competition from people that
were "dusting them off and mounting them on aluminum". It just wasn't
worth it to continue to put out a quality product.
Its so easy
> to copy what we all do, and then share in the glory and the spotlight as some
> visionary, and get credit. I would like to see these shitheads design some
> products of their own, rent booth space and really see if they have the stomach
> to get graded by the industry only to find out that they suck. Then they can go
> work in gas stations.
>
> Paul
Not all of them suck. There are a few that are doing further
development, which I would dare say constitutes what you're saying.
Look at Pheonix Audio. They've come up with a brilliant class A output
amplifier that replaced the prior 'push/pull' BA 440. That's
development, improvement, he rents booth space and puts it out for all
to see.
No offence Paul, but I see a major difference between a firm that is
recycling old product for modern purposes to a firm that goes to the
music store, buys a new unit, copies it, hires a factory in China and
pretends to be doing something great. There is quite a major difference
between a guy like Brent, and a shitstain like Behringer.
There was another thread about other 'API like' modules a while
ago...Aengus modules, and my favorite; APsI. The Apsi stuff was like
API stuff with cheap components and chips. Funny thing was, it was also
great sounding stuff, but not quite as great as it's 3/4 namesake.
From the 'where are they now file; last I heard, Crump was doing some
kind of computer thing for some big company, and you were building
consoles...so who won there?
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
Roger W. Norman
a directed payment for infringement is indeed a matter of public record,
whilest that may not be true in an "out of court" settlement (and usually
isn't). Non-disclosure of financial details is pretty much a standard in
out of court settlements. But this is on the record and can be used against
the defendant in future suits to show a pattern of practice. Hell of a lot
of difference if you ask me.
Roger W. Norman
2DJVengac wrote in message <371672...@message.com>...
>well... let's see..
> 'settled out of court',
>Behinger didn;t show up (so he's 'out of court'),
>you proved infrongement, they awarded you recompense so it got decided
>or 'settled'....
>looks like a fine example of how to lie with the right words.
>
>marvin...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> This message is prompted by replies made by Michael Liedel, customer
support
>> manager of Behringer, regarding Ulrich Behringer's history of theft and
lies.
>> Inasmuch as Aphex was the first company targeted by Behringer and
inasmuch as
>> I was directly and personally involved during the entire episode,
everything
>> that is contained in this message is the truth as I know it. Liedel
stated
>> that "the Aphex case was mainly about a dispute about Aphex's patent and
Uli
>> Behringer's own patent application". That is a lie. The truth is that
>> Behringer copied the Aural Exciter Type B, right down to the circuit
board
>> and the manual, and called it the Typ F. The front panel was made to look
>> very similar to our unit. The manual, being so blatant a copy, caused
people
>> who bought the Behringer copy to call our distributor in Germany for
service.
Paul Wolff
2DJVengac
>
> The primary difference John, is that a court order of cease and desist plus
> a directed payment for infringement is indeed a matter of public record,
> whilest that may not be true in an "out of court" settlement (and usually
> isn't). Non-disclosure of financial details is pretty much a standard in
> out of court settlements. But this is on the record and can be used against
> the defendant in future suits to show a pattern of practice. Hell of a lot
> of difference if you ask me.
>
> Roger W. Norman
absolutely.. it was supposed to read x-tremely sarcastic...
phoeni...@earthlink.net
pwo...@apiaudio.com wrote:
> I now
> have the same problem with people like the Brent Averill types, who makes
cheap
> copies "our" racks, without ever saying "hey would you mind?". They repaint
and
> use our logos, they use our names on their panels, they diss our newer models
as
> "bad sounding" so they can sell old stuff, etc. It dilutes the quality that
we
> all try to achieve. These "cloners" don't pay liability insurance, employee
> benefits, business fees, property taxes, hazard use fees, their products are
not
> UL listed, they don't meet CE requirements, they do not adhere to OSHA
standards,
> but they sure do sell them cheaper. They may not even buy the software needed
to
> run their tiny businesses. They basically make their glory by leaching off of
> products that others have spent qualified time and money designing. Its so
easy
> to copy what we all do, and then share in the glory and the spotlight as some
> visionary, and get credit. I would like to see these shitheads design some
> products of their own, rent booth space and really see if they have the
stomach
> to get graded by the industry only to find out that they suck. Then they can
go
> work in gas stations.
>
> Paul
Hi Paul
I think your comments are valid but misdirected. Speaking from a vintage Neve
equipment point there are scores of folk copying early Neve circuits and
repackaging them in all manner of wierd configurations. There is a web site
for vintage Neve Class A circuits which publishes a circuit diagram for a
gain switch for a BA283AV. . . . but the diagram is incorrect and does not
allow for aspects I have no desire to publish as it merely exacerbates the
cloning. The units are then used by folk under the impression that they sound
like a vintage Neve genuine product. . . they won't!
But I.M.H.O your dig at Brent's stuff is misdirected. He is, as for as I am
aware, merely fitting Neve and API equipment to 1U rack mounting arrangements.
He's not copying API or Neve circuitry (like the Behringer tactics with other
manufacturers) and he doesn't just slap unrefubished modules onto rack blank
panels like other examples I have seen. So the API or Neve product sounds more
like it did when originally manufactured and the buyer is getting a good deal.
Also, he has a web site, offices, staff, pays taxes and (as far as I am aware)
has none of the business failings you listed on your posting.
There are, no doubt, plenty of folk cloning API products. Your post should
have been directed at those fellows!
Geoff Tanner
phoeni...@earthlink.net
http://www.btinternet.com/~phoenixaudio.uk/
gam...@balibeyond.com
taken whatever they can from
whoever they can to make their
products marketable. It's no big
secret. But, to write off the entire
line as "slave labor junk" (from a
later post) is going a little far. The
fact of the matter is, they produce
an affordable product that does
what people need it to do.
Anything else is for the courts and
companies to figure out.
Mackie never did me any favors and
I see no reason to defend them so
vigorously. As if mackie never
swiped an idea... comon, let's be
realistic. Look at the new PA
speakers. They are JBL copies! Is
mackie learning from behringer
now?
Yes, I have a behringer board an I'm
very happy with it. I didn't buy it
because it was cheaper than the
mackie but because it was
DIFFERENT than the mackie.
Personally, I don't need 16 mic pres
on a 16 channel desktop board. If
mackie could ever figure that out,
I'd buy a mackie. But, they were not
in touch with what I needed and
behringer was.
And if we are going to count out
anything that's made by knockoff
labor in china, we might as well
throw out 3/4s of the entire audio
product line available in the US.
Let the courts wrangle over who's
right and who's wrong and buy
what you need when you need it. If
mackie makes it, fine. If behringer
makes it, fine. Just get the job done
and move on.
Jon Best
gam...@balibeyond.com wrote:
<snip>
> Mackie never did me any favors and
> I see no reason to defend them so
> vigorously. As if mackie never
> swiped an idea... comon, let's be
> realistic. Look at the new PA
> speakers. They are JBL copies! Is
> mackie learning from behringer
> now?
I guess there's no real reason for me to defend anybody, and I'm not fired
up about anything, but I just wanted to point out that the new Mackies are
closer to redesigned/improved/sort of copied RCF speakers......... who
Mackie bought as a good starting point for that very reason. Perfectly OK,
IMO. :)
Jon Best
Sales Weasel From Mars
r-white
marvin...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7f5aop$ukk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>This message is prompted by replies made by Michael Liedel, customer
support
>manager of Behringer, regarding Ulrich Behringer's history of theft and
lies.
I'm a musician, audio - idiot, and attorney. I also have a web page. When
Mackie sued Behringer, I posted the Mackie press release on my site,
together with a link to the Mackie complaint.
Behringer's attorneys in Germany sent me a nasty letter demanding payment of
damages for violation of Behringer's rights under Gemany's anti-competition
law (basically that law prohibits commercial slander by a competitor).
What a trip! I agreed to take down the press release, since Mackie had done
so!
careful what ya say, cuz this aint no free world!
ciao
rw
2DJVengac
unpleasant to look at and the horns are not what I like to hear, but
seems they're gettng a lot of use. They're turning up as powered stage
monitors too though I hevan;t been on the firing end of them yet in that
use.
if the new Mackies look like anythign (BESIDES the RCF's that they are)
they look like another entry in the EV-200 evolution. If they sound as
good as the RAMSA (unpowereds) I'm in.
Haven;t heard them.
LIKE the JBL EONS though.. they ARE plug-ugly...
Now if anyone at PANASONIC is listenign and they really DONT have (after
all thee years ) a POWERED version of their dynamite 2-ways I'm just
appalled at how they could miss such a thing.
Arny Krüger
> I also hope that people who do have some sense of right and wrong
> get a little twinge whenever they see a Behringer product in a
rack.
I'd pay a reasonable premium to avoid buying from people like this.
Paul Wolff
Eleven Shadows
> right and who's wrong and buy
> what you need when you need it. If
> mackie makes it, fine. If behringer
> makes it, fine. Just get the job done
> and move on.
Uh, yeah! Let's not do any thinking on our own! Let's just see what the
courts decide!
I mean, after all, they always serve justice fairly!
--
Ken/Eleven Shadows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eleven Shadows * ES songs on Real Audio * Music Reviews * Travels:
Peru-Ladakh-Kashmir-India-HK * Tibet * Real Audio Radio Shows
http://www.theeleventhhour.com/elevenshadows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
phoeni...@earthlink.net
had you left personal names out of it.
This distracted from a good post.
For the benefit of someone who knows very little of API equipment, could you
email me your background with the company?
Geoff Tanner
phoeni...@earthlink.net
http://www.btinternet.com/~phoenixaudio.uk/
> phoeni...@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > In article <3716B7AC...@apiaudio.com>,
> > pwo...@apiaudio.com wrote:
> >
> > > I now
> > > have the same problem with people like the Brent Averill types,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
blackcabin
> And if we are going to count out
> anything that's made by knockoff
> labor in china, we might as well
> throw out 3/4s of the entire audio
> product line available in the US.
Now that would be a good start...
jb
--
black cabin
the little house that rocks
www.blackcabin.com
931-358-0114
Roger W. Norman
Roger W. Norman
2DJVengac wrote in message <37172D...@message.com>...
Roger W. Norman
much a dissimilar price than the newer 1604VLZ. They just listened to their
customers, of which you apparently weren't one.
Roger W. Norman
gam...@balibeyond.com wrote in message <7f7i62$sdo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>Yes, I have a behringer board an I'm
>very happy with it. I didn't buy it
>because it was cheaper than the
>mackie but because it was
>DIFFERENT than the mackie.
>Personally, I don't need 16 mic pres
>on a 16 channel desktop board. If
>mackie could ever figure that out,
>I'd buy a mackie. But, they were not
>in touch with what I needed and
>behringer was.
>
>And if we are going to count out
>anything that's made by knockoff
>labor in china, we might as well
>throw out 3/4s of the entire audio
>product line available in the US.
>
>Let the courts wrangle over who's
>right and who's wrong and buy
>what you need when you need it. If
>mackie makes it, fine. If behringer
>makes it, fine. Just get the job done
>and move on.
>
Roger W. Norman
possibly have slandered the competition if you aren't the competition. I
guess, since I'm not going to Germany any time soon, I probably wouldn't
have worried about it. If they want to come here to the US to get me, well,
a whole different set of laws apply and I get a chance to PROVE my case,
including pattern of practice which has become so prevalent in both civil
and criminal courts, so I wouldn't fear it too much here, although I admit
that I wouldn't necessarily prefer to spend tons of money to go to court.
It's cheaper just to not buy any Behringer equipment and let it go at that.
And an occasional barb here or there.
Roger W. Norman
r-white wrote in message <7f7qkd$n...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>...
>
>marvin...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
><7f5aop$ukk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>This message is prompted by replies made by Michael Liedel, customer
>support
>>manager of Behringer, regarding Ulrich Behringer's history of theft and
>lies.
>
>
>
Rick Novak
> That's why I said "types" and didn't say anyone personally...
Hi Paul,
It's no big secret that you and Brent have a long standing feud going on, like
Geoff and Derrick, Malcom and John, etc, etc. What is it about you brilliant
technical types that tends to make y'all so touchy and defensive? To quote the words
of wisdom of a great philosopher; "Can we all just get along?!?" Probably not.
So I'm sitting here looking at my Averill lunchbox which is sitting next to my
API lunchbox which is sitting next to my custom mega lunchbox. The Averill does not
say "API" anywhere on it. My custom box does above the switch that selects between
API / Neve / Spectrasonic / Auxillary mic pre's. (Please forgive me! :>)
It's all world class equipment that each serves a somewhat different purpose.
Behringer is nowhere near the league that you guys are in.
Peace 'n' Love, Rick.
Jim @Analog Bros.
gam...@balibeyond.com wrote:
<snip>
But, to write off the entire
>line as "slave labor junk" (from a
>later post) is going a little far.
>companies to figure out.
Well, let's call it what it is......slave labor junk IS slave labor
junk, no matter if it has a usefull purpose to you or not.
>And if we are going to count out
>anything that's made by knockoff
>labor in china, we might as well
>throw out 3/4s of the entire audio
>product line available in the US.
No problem here either. I personaly don't buy anything from China
(knowingly), regardless if it has a US mfg nameplate on it. Yes, it's
difficult to find out the origin sometimes, and also sometimes
impossible to avoid at all, but if the consumer dosen't make an
active attempt to direct thier $ away from China, than the slave labor
industry is indirectly getting thier endoresment. If you exclude
consumer products, there are alternatives to Chinese goods easily
available from US and European mfgs. If you looking only at price
point though, how can you expect them to compete here? I'm not a
Mackie fan (just using this as an example), but I'd much rather have
my $ end up in WA than Bejing. How much do you really save anyway,
20%? Isn't that an indictment on the "behringer" types, that a US mfg
can be that close in end user pricing while using expensive labor in
an expensive country to do manufacturing in? So where are your $
going? Obviously not to the Chinese guy that's chained to the
soldering station. Think about it.
Regards, Jim
www.analogbros.com
--Jim @Analog Bros.
Custom Amplification
New Hope, PA
rough...@my-dejanews.com
Besides all that is written here and in many postings before I am convinced
that Behringer gear isn´t just a rip-off from other companies.
I love my Behringer products.
Roughbrook
magn...@my-dejanews.com
now fine..... people here are talking more and more about judgements, they
instigate personal crusades and defend the one company and accuse the other.
I have a proposition:
Open up a new forum and follow the example of www.mymackiesucks.com
<http://www.mymackiesucks.com> and struggle further on in e.g.
www.behringer-sucks-all-ethics-and-copies-all-I-ever-believed-in.com
<http://www.behringer-sucks-all-ethics-and-copies-all-I-ever-believed-in.com
> !
We can stop all this crappy nonsense here and now. Then we would no longer
have to shovel through this rancid garbage just to find a couple of good
tips.
In article <37189B14...@santa-monica-ca.com>,
eleven...@theeleventhhour.com wrote:
> > Let the courts wrangle over who's
> > right and who's wrong and buy
> > what you need when you need it. If
> > mackie makes it, fine. If behringer
> > makes it, fine. Just get the job done
> > and move on.
>
> Uh, yeah! Let's not do any thinking on our own! Let's just see what the
> courts decide!
> I mean, after all, they always serve justice fairly!
>
> --
> Ken/Eleven Shadows
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Eleven Shadows * ES songs on Real Audio * Music Reviews * Travels:
> Peru-Ladakh-Kashmir-India-HK * Tibet * Real Audio Radio Shows
> http://www.theeleventhhour.com/elevenshadows
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
2DJVengac
> Besides all that is written here and in many postings before I am convinced
> that Behringer gear isn´t just a rip-off from other companies.
> I love my Behringer products.
... another spineless wonder heard from in the hinterlands...
2DJVengac
>
> now fine..... people here are talking more and more about judgements,
we do them every day in everythign we do. we ARE what we do.
> instigate personal crusades and defend the one company and accuse the other.
just reporting facts, (unlike Behringer Representative Leidel) ...the
decided court cases wherein Behringer was convicted are a significant
step beyond simple 'accusations'
> We can stop all this crappy nonsense here and now. Then we would no longer
> have to shovel through this rancid garbage just to find a couple of good
> tips.
Large scale theft and lying are 'crappy nonsense' and 'rancid garbage'
to you ...
figger that about says it all sweetie.
y'all come back now, when ya git some o them there morals an' scruples
and backbone... y'heah'?...
Rathumos
rough...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Besides all that is written here and in many postings before I am convinced
> that Behringer gear isn´t just a rip-off from other companies.
> I love my Behringer products.
>
> Roughbrook
Besides the facts proven in a court of law and the blatant copyright
infringement ending in quite a sizeable settlement, and besides the ludicrously
indistinguishable circuit boards, I'm gonna stick with my rip off!
Hot Jamms
JUst dropping a note to say hello. I don't even want to get started on
Behringer. Keep
an ear out for NHT -Pro powered studio
monitors made in Sacremento or the
new TC Intonator Pitch Device .
soundcutter
In article <7f7i62$sdo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gam...@balibeyond.com wrote:
>Ok, it's obvious that behringer has
>taken whatever they can from
>whoever they can to make their
>products marketable. It's no big
>line as "slave labor junk" (from a
>fact of the matter is, they produce
>an affordable product that does
>what people need it to do.
>Anything else is for the courts and
>companies to figure out.
>
>I see no reason to defend them so
>vigorously.
>very happy with it. I didn't buy it
>because it was cheaper than the
>mackie but because it was
>DIFFERENT than the mackie.
>Personally, I don't need 16 mic pres
>on a 16 channel desktop board. If
>mackie could ever figure that out,
>I'd buy a mackie. But, they were not
>in touch with what I needed and
>behringer was.
>Let the courts wrangle over who's
>right and who's wrong and buy
>what you need when you need it. If
>mackie makes it, fine. If behringer
>makes it, fine. Just get the job done
>and move on.
And if I can get pair of Genelecs for $100 because it fell off a truck, well,
let's leave it up to the courts to decide if the vendor is reputable. (This,
for those who don't speak typeface, is sarcasm)
Since I heard about this whole Behringer/Mackie suit, I've steered three
different organizations from buying Behringer gear. Each one has come to me
saying: "Isn't this stuff just as good? It looks the same and it's cheaper!"
My answer: "No".
Stephen Rajkumar
sound...@usa.net
P.S. The original 1604 had only 6 mic pre's. Behringer hasn't copied the new
one yet.
P.P.S. Mackie has done you a much bigger favor than you realize.
2DJVengac
China is the price of making ANYTHING there due mainly to what I
understand to be THE best industrial robotics implementations in
manufacturing going. It's a WHOLE lot easier to do that massive robotics
thing when you;re wholly unconcerned with who you;re stripping of work
opportunities and sure 'it's the future face it' and all, but
considering all that great robotics manufacturing income is going
straight to a regime that's shooting kids for thinking.. it makes me
pause a bit... I do have a Nanoverb and nanocomp that I bought without
checking the point of origin (it was ALESIS ferghodsakes) and yeah I
didnt take em back for a refund...and they irk me everytime I unpack
em... i aint perfect... but I can still work at it.
ovid wrote:
>
> Oh grow up. Have you been to China? Have you seen the slave labor camps making
> the Neutriks and the Alesis gear? Or is everyone outside of America/Europe a
> slave labourer?Some of your high end valve(tube) equipment uses Valves made in
> China, as are numerous caps, resistors and transformers.
2DJVengac
>
> Actually, I do have a Nanoverb and nanocomp that I bought without
> checking the point of origin (it was ALESIS ferghodsakes) and yeah I
> didnt take em back for a refund...and they irk me everytime I unpack
> em... i aint perfect... but I can still work at it.
actually the NAnocomp (Nancompoop?) irks me every time i look at it..
anybody wanna buy one?
(HANG IN THERE HARV...)
Ken Kantor
only small parts at the moment). I was there two weeks ago. Two
months ago. Two years ago. Etc. I don't think you can lump 1/3
of the world's population into one basket. There are big
differences between regions, and even factories in the same city.
Big differences in economic policy, labor laws, living
conditions, etc.
I think it is incumbent on manufacturers to apply ethical
considerations to their sourcing process, to moderate the
knee-jerk profit motive. But, I don't think consumers should
paint with too broad a brush. After all, labor is treated pretty
shabbily in the U.S., by some standards...
--
Vergence Technology, Inc.
NHT Pro Loudspeakers
www.nhtpro.com
ovid
the Neutriks and the Alesis gear? Or is everyone outside of America/Europe a
slave labourer?Some of your high end valve(tube) equipment uses Valves made in
China, as are numerous caps, resistors and transformers.
OVID
synaesthesia chronicles
digital audio recordings
5 Maria Avenue Singapore 456737
VOX: 2445620 FAX: 244 5624
synaes...@hotbot.com
http://www.asiafind.com/sites/synaesthesia/
D L Morley
different organizations from buying Behringer gear. Each one has come to me
saying: "Isn't this stuff just as good? It looks the same and it's cheaper!"
My answer: "No".
Problem is, sometimes it is as good, if not better.
Morally I don't agree with Behringer, but I also don't agree with Mackie
(selling products A YEAR before they actually get it working sort of right and
being so arrogant at the same time). I hate Alesis (not for their products, but
for how they treated me once).
PS: If any people out there who refused to buy Behringer for legal/Moral
reasons are wearing NIKE shoes, throw 'em away and buy something else.
D Morley
Milan Ciric
Those who are so agressivly against them are mostly motivated
by fears that their billion profits could be little disturbed.
Don't be victimes of their lies.
Try the units,listen to them!Behringer is OK.
2DJVengac
> Those who are so agressivly against them are mostly motivated
> by fears that their billion profits could be little disturbed.
2DJVengac
since nobody ever said otherwise...the only thing that gets me on this
is not whether The B's industrial theivery is somehow worse or the same
or whataver than 'other industry practices' but that the company
continues to deny wrongdoing and then lie blatantly about their
less-than-stellar past. Couple this with folks that don;t seem to be in
the least bothered by this and it makes for a saddening look at
consumers (admittedly I do have a thought that Folks Oughta Be
Better..).
...and where can I find shoes made somewhere other than China?
D L Morley
>>
Exactly! What I'm saying is that certain things are pretty fucked up. But
shooting Behringer is still kind of wrong as all the others have their
skeletons (and tend to shout about the others "bad sides" a bit too loud)
Mackie bug me, because people seem to think they have invented the recording
console (mainly due to Mackie's claims and "humourous adverts"). They used
ideas that have been around for years. OK, I agree if Behringer copied then
they should get done for it, but they are in the majority not the minority.
I remember Moog taking ARP to court over a filter design. ARP took their filter
out and designed a new one (fair enough). It then came to light that Moog had
stolen some of their circuitry. That's the way the real world is unfortunately.
I don't own any Behringer gear and doubt I will. Some people though are driven
by economics much more. Virtually everything electrical these days is made in
China. Every stupid kids toy is made in China. We buy it. We create the
problem.
<<Couple this with folks that don;t seem to be in
the least bothered by this and it makes for a saddening look at
consumers (admittedly I do have a thought that Folks Oughta Be
Better..).>>
Oh and I am bothered by it. I just don't like seeing the small guy getting
picked on either. Like I say, I'm not standing up for Behringer (I couldn't
give a shit) but please don't stand up for Mackie. They have the power to look
after themselves.
Also everyone has the right to make their own mind up. Behringer have the China
thing and their dubious practice of copying others, but if someone asks me if
their mixers sound good, I say for the money they do.
D Morley
Roger Christie
shoddy duplicates of them with cheap foreign labor and sell
them to dummies who think they're making out.
Try giving your dollars to a company that actually contributes
something to the development of the industry.
Milan Ciric wrote in message <3721F1...@wxs.nl>...
Pat Lyman
"Roger Christie" <rog...@castle.ultranet.com> wrote:
> No, I'm against them because the take competitors units, do
> shoddy duplicates of them with cheap foreign labor and sell
> them to dummies who think they're making out.
Sure, they sell for about 1/3 third less, but sound at least a third less.
Isn't this a "you get what you pay for" scenario? Folks buying at a price
point care less about the quality, more about the price tag. I know a few
Eurodesk owners, and they readily admit the Mackie sounds better. If it
wasn't going to be a Behringer, it would have been a Biamp, Peavey, or
Carvin. If the choice was Mackie or nothing, it probably would have been
nothing, because the Behringer/Mackie margin went for a head gasket on the
van, the electric bill, or a trip to the dentist for the kids.
>
> Try giving your dollars to a company that actually contributes
> something to the development of the industry.
>
Not trying to be sarcastic, but few in the Mackie/Behringer market can afford
Manley, or the more obvious innovators. I'm not convinced that Mackie is up
in that stratus. Much has been made over on alt.guitar.amps how Leo Fender
copied the Radiotron manual, Marshall copied Fender, Matchless copied Vox.
Having an ethical wallet involves a lot of research!
> Milan Ciric wrote in message <3721F1...@wxs.nl>...
> >Behringer offers quite good equipment-for the money...excellent!
> >Those who are so agressivly against them are mostly motivated
> >by fears that their billion profits could be little disturbed.
And the preceding is the other extreme.
> >Don't be victimes of their lies.
> >Try the units,listen to them!Behringer is OK.
Behringer is merely OK. That is my point. BTW, I haven't seen "Muckie"
outside of this newsgroup.
_____________
Pat Lyman
Paul Wolff
SOMEONE RIPS IT OFF FROM YOU, RECORDS IT, PLAYS IT ON THE RADIO, AND
MAKES ALL OF YOUR MONEY. JUST DON'T TAKE THEM TO COURT.
Milan Ciric wrote:
> Behringer offers quite good equipment-for the money...excellent!
> Those who are so agressivly against them are mostly motivated
> by fears that their billion profits could be little disturbed.
2DJVengac
C'mon Paul...
c'mon...
I'm gonna do ya a big favor...
Im gonna take you home
Let me get ya outta here...
C'mon Paul
No.. no don;t say anything else to 'em.. don;t...
Fergit it Paul...it's Chinatown...
Milan Ciric
You must have had a very,very reliable source to claim something
like that.Or,is it just a guess based on those who are actually ripping
us of for years (if you are longer in business as I am).
Don't you understand - maybe it's you who missed the point ?
It's all about HUGE profits (and a lot of lies beyond).
Why don't you contact Behringer,ask them for their point of vieuw,
then balance the whole thing (always better than "unbalanced") and after
all that, come to some conclusion.
Milan
Dave Longo
Milan
Aphex sued Behringer for stealing and won . That is pretty incriminating
evidence . This is a known fact or do you not beleive a court of law???
evidence was presented conclusive evidence.
Paul is a professional console builder and an expert in his field. Do you
have the background he does??? I would pretty much trust what Paul is
saying . Did you know that if Paul was not speaking the truth Behringer
could sue him ?? You don't see Behringer here threatening Paul with a suit
if he doesn't retract his words. I am sure there are Behringer trolls on
this list. Judging by the way some of the posts in this debate have been
made.
All i can say is IMHO the only boards Mackie makes that i would want are
the 1202 and the new Digital DB8 .
That still does not change the fact that until Mackie sued Behringer their
boards were complete knock offs of Mackies .
You can beleive what you want but i chose not to live in ignorance and
chose to use my intelligence. Like Paul said open your eyes research it
for yourself. The evidence is out there to support the claims.
--
Peace, Dave Diverse City Productions dp...@netwiz.net
"Music for The Phuture Generation"
Jim @Analog Bros.
Ovid,
No, I haven't been personally to China, however some of my partners
have. And BTW, NONE of my (Analog Bros.) valve equipment uses ANY
components from China.
ovid <quek...@singnet.com.sg> wrote:
--Jim @Analog Bros.
Jim Bordner
outta line, but let me say this:
Behringer has frequently been sued by 0ther Manufacturers, and has
consistently lost those lawsuits. This is fact. There is no question in
the audio industry that these guys have decided settling out of court is
cheaper than R&D.
There is also no doubt, at least in my mind, that they build cheap versions
of other people's designs. They may achieve these lower prices either by
using cheap labor or cheap components (or both), but the result is reduced
quality.
Hiring lawyers instead of engineers does not further the audio industry. No
matter whether you like or dislike your Behringer mixer/compressor/whatever,
you have to agree this is true.
Jim Bordner
Gravity Music
Dave Longo
<j...@gravitymusic.com> wrote:
snip...
well put. see rest below.
--
Paul Wolff
such a slow way to go. I wish I could....well...just help them along. Oh
God Jim, what have I said?.......Are we in Kansas? Close the cargo bay
doors, HAL. Daisy, Daisy..........
duncan
> of other people's designs. They may achieve these lower prices either by
> using cheap labor or cheap components (or both), but the result is reduced
> quality.
>
just like microsoft.. (stacker lawsuit, etc)
> Hiring lawyers instead of engineers does not further the audio industry. No
> matter whether you like or dislike your Behringer mixer/compressor/whatever,
> you have to agree this is true.
>
just like microsoft...
yet you are using Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition to post from...
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