From Japanese to Korean (self-study question)
Gavin M Walker
seriously learn Korean. I have a basically fluent command of modern Japanese
(ie, I'm comfortable reading academic and non-academic books written in
Japanese without a dictionary, etc) and have been in the process of
self-studying Korean for the past 6-8 months. I have a good and speedy level
of hangeul (excuse the nasty new govt. romanizations if you prefer M-R)
reading and a decent grasp on basic grammar. Once I got used to the sound
changes from Sino-Japanese terms to Sino-Korean terms (eg, bungaku ->
munhak; tetsugaku -> cheolhak; shakai -> sahoe, etc) I found I knew quite a
lot of vocabulary.
Once I learned some particles that behave similarly to Japanese (eun/neun;
i/ga; eul/reul, etc) I felt relatively confident. Yet I find verb
conjugation to be much more difficult than Japanese (although granted it's
been a long time since I really studied Japanese grammatical basics). Thus
far I've been studying from the _Hanguk'eo_ I, II, and III textbook series
(Yonsei daehakkyo hanguk'eo hakdang), trying to read online news sources
with a dictionary, and a short Japanese introductory book (which I can't
find at the moment, but it's not a very sophisticated "kisoteki kankokugo
nyuumon" or something like that).
My question is - does anyone know of a solid set of Korean textbooks written
in Japanese to use for studying? I feel that the more I rely on English to
be the medium I'm learning Korean in, the more difficult it is. Every time
I'm confused about some construction in Korean, I find that it becomes quite
clear to me if I discover a Japanese explanation online. I've tried to
listen to quite a lot of Korean broadcast news and radio so as not to
develop a Japanese accent, but I think that for grammatical information, a
textbook written in Japanese would be a real help. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance.
p p j martin
written
> in Japanese to use for studying?
A Korean publisher called "GANADA" publish a series of Korean textbooks
(Beginners to Advanced) in which two versions are available, quaintly
entitled: "Korean for Foreigners" and "Korean for Japanese".
See:
http://www.gkli.co.kr/frame5.htm
If the English version is anything to go by the actual quality of the
Japanese mightn't be too good.
Phil
Bart Mathias
> This is a question directed to any speakers of Japanese attempting
> to seriously learn Korean. [...]
That's not me, but it's a shame you're doing it backwards. Japanese
on a Korean basis is a snap for a number of reasons (one obvious one
is that the Sino-X vocabulary is easier--you can go from saenghwal
and eunhaeng to seikatsu and ginkoo a lot easier than the other way
around).
I once had a book of the sort you're looking for. There's a slight
chance I still do, because I don't remember it being among the
hundreds of books I gave away when I retired. But I wouldn't know
where to look for it at the moment, so I can't give you much, except
that I am sure (L)I Seungnyeong (a very well-known [pronounced
"well-lone" :-)] Korean linguist) was one of the authors. That might
be a clue to finding something satisfactory--I remember thinking it
was well done.
Bart
Gavin M Walker
> on a Korean basis is a snap for a number of reasons (one obvious one
> is that the Sino-X vocabulary is easier--you can go from saenghwal
> and eunhaeng to seikatsu and ginkoo a lot easier than the other way
> around).
Just out of curiosity, is there a reason you consider the transition from
K->J to be easier than the other way around? Do you think this is due to the
relatively small number of sounds in Japanese as opposed to Korean and
lesser pronunciation difficulties? I suppose were I to go back to when I
first began learning Japanese, I'd have tried to take up Korean at the same
time or shortly thereafter, but the thought didn't really occur to me. It
seems relatively painless to learn at the moment, once one makes a decent
study of the Sino sound changes. I can imagine that it would be easier to
learn Korean pronunciation prior to Japanese, although I suppose that could
lead to certain stereotypical mistakes of K->J NS's too ("Z" pronounced as
"J" or "CH" immediately comes to mind).
> I once had a book of the sort you're looking for. There's a slight
> chance I still do, because I don't remember it being among the
> hundreds of books I gave away when I retired. But I wouldn't know
> where to look for it at the moment, so I can't give you much, except
> that I am sure (L)I Seungnyeong (a very well-known [pronounced
> "well-lone" :-)] Korean linguist) was one of the authors. That might
> be a clue to finding something satisfactory--I remember thinking it
> was well done.
I tried doing a Google.co.kr search for "이 승녕" (I Seungnyeong) but
couldn't find anything - I kept getting articles written by a journalist of
the same name from the Jungang Ilbo. If published in Japanese do you know
the appropriate kanji for the name? Or alternatively, if published in
English do you know the particular romanization used? (Lee? Yi? Li? Rhee?)
Thanks for your response and the hints on the book.
chance kim
"Gavin M Walker" <gmwa...@sas.upenn.edu> wrote,
> I tried doing a Google.co.kr search for "이 승녕" (I Seungnyeong) but
> couldn't find anything -
'I Seungnyeong'wa 'Yi Sung-nyong'desu. 'Sung-nyong'towa kanjidewa
'Agameru'no 'su'to 'yasui'no 'nei'to narunodesu.
Kim Chang-su
Seoul, Corea
Gavin M Walker
Yi Sung-nyeong (이숭녕) (李崇寧) oversaw the direction of a textbook project
called "Hyoujun Kankokugo." The first volume seems to be called "Kiso,
kaiwa" and has 3 tapes that are sold separately. After doing a short
Google.co.jp search, I came across two listings of books for others in my
situation, that is, those who already speak Japanese, are in the process of
learning Korean and would like to do so in the medium of Japanese. The first
is a "Kankokugo kyouzai no list" from Multilingual World at:
http://www.alc.co.jp/mlng/korean/mlt_bok_kor01.html
If you go to the homepage as well, there are some interesting things in the
FAQ (for instance, pronunciation explanations of the differences between
"ae" and "e," etc).
The other resource, the "Chousen-go goi-ron, bunpou-ron kenkyuu no Nihongo
de yomeru kisoteki sankou bunken" is also excellent and extremely
comprehensive, listing both linguistic research as well as more prosaic
"nyuumonsho" and others:
http://www.aurora.dti.ne.jp/~noma/refgramj01.html
Anyway, I'd like to thank all who replied to me, and I hope this info helps
anyone else learning Korean.
(Should be in Unicode, but things might show up in strange encodings).
> "Gavin M Walker" <gmwa...@sas.upenn.edu> wrote,
>
>> I tried doing a Google.co.kr search for "ÀÌ ∏“ç" (I Seungnyeong) but
Bart Mathias
[After I, Bart, wen' say:]
> > [..] Japanese
> > on a Korean basis is a snap for a number of reasons (one obvious
> > one is that the Sino-X vocabulary is easier--you can go from
> > saenghwal and eunhaeng to seikatsu and ginkoo a lot easier than
> > the other way around).
> Just out of curiosity, is there a reason you consider the
> transition from
> K->J to be easier than the other way around? Do you think this is
> K->due to the
> relatively small number of sounds in Japanese as opposed to Korean
> and lesser pronunciation difficulties?
Those are the primary things. The acquisition of Sino-J vocabulary
on the basis of Sino-K--these being major segments of the vocabulary
of both languages--is a lot easier than the other way around, as I
sort of demonstrated. But to ram it into the ground with another
example, if you know a character is "haeng" in Korean, it's going to
be "koo" or "goo" in Japanese. If it's "kap" in K, it'll be "koo" or
maybe "goo" in J. If it's "hap" in K, "koo/goo" in J. K "hang" = J
"koo/goo." K "ko," J "ko/koo." K "kong," J "koo/kuu." K "kwang," J
"koo." Etc., etc. (Did I mention, what if it's "kang" in Korean?)
S-K gives you a pretty good shot at S-J. But the other way around,
like what would be the S-K equivalent of S-J "koo"?--that's a wee bit
tougher.
And indeed the "lesser pronunciation difficulties" counted a lot for
me. After struggling a year with a scad of vowels, many of which
were completely new to me when I was 18, and never reaching 100% in
discriminating the aspirates from the "non-aspirates" (which are
unfortunately aspirated, if less so), Japanese pronunciation, with
just five familiar vowels and only vowel length and the mora nasal as
problems, was a snap by comparison. (J consonant length was just a
slight modification of Korean "geminate" consonants, and J "u" was
close enough to K "eu" [Yale "u"], so there too Korean-first came to
my aid.)
As far as grammar goes, it probably doesn't matter which comes first.
Korean "-(n)eun" doesn't quite equate with J "-wa," but that goes
both ways. Choosing between K "-i" and "-ka" where J has just "-ga"
is not a genuine difficulty, being totally transparent. I find the K
particles more difficult in general--where J has and easy "-de" I
have to worry whether I want "-eseo," "-(eu)lo," or "-(eu)loseo" in
Korean, but that may just be because I never attained any Korean
proficiency to speak of (not that I can claim much for Japanese
either, but it made me a living for 30+ years). Going from Japanese
"<clause>-te" to Korean ("-ko"? "-seo"? "-koseo"? "-myeo"?
"-ni"?) creates similar problems for me. But it seems to be another
many (difficult) to one (easy) proposition, for Korean-firsters.
> [...]> I tried doing a Google.co.kr search for "이 승녕" (I
> [...]> Seungnyeong) but
> couldn't find anything - I kept getting articles written by a
> journalist of the same name from the Jungang Ilbo. If published in
> Japanese do you know the appropriate kanji for the name? Or
> alternatively, if published in English do you know the particular
> romanization used? (Lee? Yi? Li? Rhee?) Thanks for your response
> and the hints on the book.
In the course of a failed attempt to find my hanca dictionary for the
first paragraph of my response, I stumbled across the book I had in
mind.
It seems to be related to something you found on the basis of Kim's
hint, but slightly different.
Published by Kolyeo seolim (Koryo Book-forest), Seoul, 1973, and
written by I Sungnyeong (my previous "Seung..." was wrong, now that I
see the hanca) and Pak Seongweon (Become-Lady), it's called _Phyojun
hangugeo_ (Yale: Phyocwun hankwuke)--that's in hangul, the title
rewritten in kanji(?) and a subtitle "kiso-kara kaiwa-made" in
Japanese. Twenty-three chapters, 10 bunpoogaiyoo, seven appendices
(omigosh! the 7th is six Korean songs [four of which I don't know
yet], with music!). If I could stay off slj and read this book for
awhile, I'm sure I'd be fluent in Korean in no time!
Bart
Gavin M Walker
> like what would be the S-K equivalent of S-J "koo"?--that's a wee bit
> tougher.
Actually, I think this is particularly true in one respect, at least for me
- reading speed. Without hanja/kanji, this problem really presents itself in
terms of the speed with which I can glean meaning from specific large Sino-K
compounds. Maybe this is partly (or mostly) the result of my 8-month only
hangeul reading ability, but it seems that another difficult aspect of the
J->K transition is learning to both rely on kanji for Sino-K vocabulary, and
yet simultaneously learning to read without relying on kanji-heavy speed
reading techniques. I assume this will lessen with time, but I have to say
that trying to read large hangeul-only pieces still gives me an initial
feeling of radical unfamiliarity at the start, whereas when I found a Korean
reader from the 70's with articles written with a heavy use of hanja, I had
such a feeling of ease (even if the grammar was over my head).
> As far as grammar goes, it probably doesn't matter which comes first....But it
seems to be
>another many (difficult) to one (easy) proposition, for Korean-firsters.
This seems increasingly true to me as well in studying so far (of course, I
wouldn't really claim to have any proficiency in Korean as such), although I
must say that Korean particles *seemed* much more difficult to me until I
started studying from Japanese-language textbooks. Until I did this, for
instance I didn't even realize the parallel between seemingly obvious things
like J "kara/made" and K "eseo/kkaji."
> Published by Kolyeo seolim (Koryo Book-forest), Seoul, 1973, and
> written by I Sungnyeong (my previous "Seung..." was wrong, now that I
> see the hanca) and Pak Seongweon (Become-Lady), it's called _Phyojun
> hangugeo_ (Yale: Phyocwun hankwuke)--that's in hangul, the title
> rewritten in kanji(?) and a subtitle "kiso-kara kaiwa-made" in
> Japanese. Twenty-three chapters, 10 bunpoogaiyoo, seven appendices
> (omigosh! the 7th is six Korean songs [four of which I don't know
> yet], with music!). If I could stay off slj and read this book for
> awhile, I'm sure I'd be fluent in Korean in no time!
This book sounds terrific and I will try to search it out. Thanks for the
info on it. These sorts of relatively comprehensive textbooks seem to be a
dying breed in favor of some of the rather shallow teaching aids for Korean
that I've seen lately - some of these hardly seem more than slightly
expanded phrasebooks! I've found Fred Lukoff's long out-of-print _A First
Reader in Korean in Mixed Script_ extremely good as well. The use of hanja
throughout it has been quite a help to me in terms of vocabulary acquisition
- the included vocabulary lists with hangeul equivalents are of particular
use due to the difficulty of guessing certain Sino-K pronunciations on the
basis of Sino-J that you mentioned previously. Thanks again for your
thoughts on this subject.
Gavin
PS - Do you know if there is any substantive movement in Korea to
reintroduce hanja in common writing? Would there be any advantages from your
perspective to such a reintroduction (aside from making the job of learners
of Korean with a knowledge of characters like myself a bit easier)?
chance kim
"Gavin M Walker" <gmwa...@sas.upenn.edu> wrote,
> PS - Do you know if there is any substantive movement in Korea to
> reintroduce hanja in common writing? Would there be any advantages from
your
> perspective to such a reintroduction (aside from making the job of
learners
> of Korean with a knowledge of characters like myself a bit easier)?
Bokuga sitteru kagiridewa 1948nen igo hangulsenyowa sudeni taiseito
narimasita. Sinbunwo mimasuto kanjiwa hotondo tukawanaku narimasita.
Ippo kanjiwo kokugono ichibuto site betuni benkyosinakereba naranaito iu
ugokimo hirogatte imasu. Keredo kanjiwa yomutokini meni ukaberu mono
teidoni todomarudesio.
Kim Chang-su
Seoul, Corea
Bart Mathias
> [...]
GBM> Published by Kolyeo seolim (Koryo Book-forest), Seoul, 1973, and
> > written by I Sungnyeong (my previous "Seung..." was wrong, now
> > that I see the hanca) and Pak Seongweon (Become-Lady), it's
> > called _Phyojun hangugeo_ (Yale: Phyocwun hankwuke)--that's in
> > hangul, the title rewritten in kanji(?) and a subtitle "kiso-kara
> > kaiwa-made" in Japanese. Twenty-three chapters, 10 bunpoogaiyoo,
> > seven appendices
> > [...]
GMW> This book sounds terrific and I will try to search it out. [...]
I looked in vain for an ISBN number. There is an unidentified
2387-27230-2425 on the publication data page.
I'm keeping it at hand to go through more than I did in the past.
And rediscovered in chapter five (the first four are mostly spelling
and pronunciation related) something that I remember gave me negative
vibes the first time I skimmed the book. It starts with a
"conversation," and the first speaker says (I hope you can read my
Yale version of the hankul--it's the only system I'm fairly confident
in),
i kes-un mues-imnikka? kore-wa nan-desu-ka.
When I learned Korean, that was "i kes-i ..." I once even made an
important issue of that and similar cases in a paper called "Subject
and Topic in Korean, Japanese, and English. So I wonder if the
difference between Japanese and Korean here is being deliberately
disguised to make Korean seem more like Japanese?
> PS - Do you know if there is any substantive movement in Korea to
> reintroduce hanja in common writing? Would there be any advantages
> from your perspective to such a reintroduction (aside from making
> the job of learners of Korean with a knowledge of characters like
> myself a bit easier)?
They've gone back and forth on a change to hankul only, but my
impression is that they're heading only forth now. There're always a
lot of Korean magazines at my dentist's office, and I sometimes watch
the credits on Korean TV programs, and it's been a long time since I
have seen a hanca that wasn't in a photograph of some temple or of
the cover of an old book.
The more they go forth without going back, the less likelihood of
ever going back, because of years of hanca education being missed by
the people coming into control of such things.
Bart