Atlantis-any proof ?- Beachrock, Not Atlantean Road (Long Post)
southdar
Distribution: world
Organization: Friends of Fossils
In _Re: Atlantis-any proof ?_, la...@delphi.com wrote;
>Doug Weller correctly notes that there may be columns other
>than the ones that were tested and apparently are concrete,
.....material about the barrels/columns found in near Bimini
island omitted. These artifacts are an entirely different issue
then the alleged "roads" because nobody has presented any
proof that the barrels and columns are connected in any way
to what people claim to be roadways. Thus, they are discussed
in a post that is in preparation.
The Pleistocene limestones on which the barrels and columns
lie range in age from 15,000 to 23,000 B.P. (Gifford 1973).
Because wave action from storms and currents periodically
mix the deposits that lie on the Pleistocene limestones, the
shells and artifacts that lie upon can be of any age that postdate
it. In examples documented by Flessa (1993), the mixing of
nearshore surficial deposits by storms has produced deposits
containing shells that range in age from modern to greater than
36,000 B.P. as dated by radiocarbon method. A similar mixing
of old and new shells and artifacts has likely occurred within the
Bimini nearshore deposits given the periodic hurricanes that have
hit the region.
Reference Cited;
Flessa, Karl W., 1993, Time-averaging and temporal resolution
in Recent marine shelly faunas. in S. M. Kidwell and A. K.
Behrensmeyer (eds.), pp. 34-56, Taphomonic Approaches to
Time Resolution in Fossil Assemblages. Short Courses in
Paleontology, no. 6, The Paleontological Society, University
of Tennessee, Knoxville.
Gifford, John A, 1973, A description of the geology of the
Bimini Islands, Bahamas. University of Miami, Florida, 88 p.
>The central problem is that too few really travel there and
>too many carp on the silly and do not take the meat of the
>matter seriously. I don't know if this is Atlantis and don't
These are untrue statements indicative of sloppy scholarship.
Carbonate sedimentologists and other geologists have
traveled to the Bimini Islands to study the large slabs of
limestone that people claim are ancient "roads". They have
produced detailed studies of the Bimini area. Specific studies
are Ball and Gifford (1980), Gifford (1973), Harrison (1971),
Shinn 1978), and McKusick, and Shinn (1978). Other important
Bimini studies are Davaud and Strasser (1984), Strasser and Davaud
(1986), and Supko and others (1970).
References cited;
1. Ball, Mahlon M., and Gifford, John A., 1980, Investigation of
submerged beachrock deposits off Bimini, Bahamas. Research
Reports National Geographic Society. vol. 12., p. 21-38.
2. Gifford, John A, 1973, A description of the geology of the
Bimini Islands, Bahamas. University of Miami, Florida, 88 p.
3. McKusick, M., and Shinn, E. A., 1980, Bahamian Atlantis
reconsidered. Nature, vol. 287, no. 5777, pp. 11-12.
4. Harrison, W., 1971, Atlantis undiscovered; Bimini, Bahamas.
Nature. vol. 230, no. 5292, p. 287-289.
5. Davaud, Eric, and Strasser, A., 1984, Progradation, cimentation,
erosion; evolution sedimentaire et diagenetique recente d'un littoral
carbonate (Bimini, Bahamas). [Translated title: Progradation;
cementation, erosion; Recent diagenetic and sedimentary evolution
in a carbonate coastal environment, Bimini, Bahamas.] Eclogae
Geologicae Helvetiae. 77. (3). p. 449-468.
6. Strasser, A., and Davaud, E, 1986, Formation of Holocene limestone
sequences by progradation, cementation, and erosion; two examples
from the Bahamas. Journal-of-Sedimentary-Petrology. vol. 56. no.3
p. 422-428.
7. Shin, E. A., 1978, ??, Sea Frontiers. vol. 24, p. 130.
8. Supko, P. R., Marszalek, D. S., and Bock, W. D., 1970,
Sedimentary environments and carbonate rocks of Bimini,
Bahamas. Miami Geological Society Annual Field Trip
Guidebook no. 4, 30 p. Miami geol. Soc., Miami, Florida.
>care. It is not a natural phenomenon at the Bimini Road.
>Very expert divers who have dove many times there do not find
>it natural. I have spent hours and days with them over the
Just being a diver does not give a person the ability to
understand the complex processes that create beachrock and other
carbonate rocks. Some knowledge of and experience in studying
carbonate rocks (limestones and dolomites) is needed to
interpret what is going on. As I will go into detail below, expert
carbonate geologists, Gifford (1973), Ball and Gifford (1980),
Sinn (1978), and McKusick and Shinn (1980) have examined
the slabs of limestone and found overwhelming evidence that
the so-called "Bimini Roads are nothing more than rectangular
slabs of beachrock.
.....material omitted
In article <DI3u8...@news.cis.umn.edu>,
(Re: Atlantis-any proof ?) m-h...@maroon.tc.umn.edu says;
>gpo...@ent1.ent.ncsu.edu (Eugene Powell) wrote:
>>I believe a slight correction or amendment to this comment might
>>be that the so-called Bimini road APPEARS to be similar to natural
>>formations that do mimic the rectangular blocks and joints, but I do
>>not think the Nature article PROOVED the Bimini road is a natural
>>formation. However, you have read the article and I have not, so
>>perhaps you could elucidat as to whether McKusick and Shinn
>>DID proove this or not.
>
>For mercy's sake! LOOK at the photographs.
The picture which are available at the below webb page have been
scanned from figures 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 of the book by
Roberto Ferro and Michael Grumley (1970) that is titled
_Atlantis: the Autobiography of a Search_ printed by Doubleday
and Company for those interested in a better look at them.
>http://archon.lib.umn.edu/ruins.htm
With a grant from National Geographic, Ball and Gifford (1980) and
Gifford (1973), did a detailed study of the so-called "Bimini Roads"
presuming them to be archaeological remains. For the study of these
blocks, they completely surveyed the three linear strips of slabs that
comprise the "Bimini Roads"; completed photomosaics of the
features composed of a linear concentration of slabs; described
the orientation and physical characteristics of slabs; surveyed in the
position of the strips of slabs in relation to benchmarks on North
Bimini; obtained core samples from individual slabs within the
"Bimini Roads"; prepared petrographic thin sections from the cores
and other samples from individual slabs; and dated samples from
the slabs by radiocarbon and uranium-thorium methods.
They observed that these linear features lay roughly parallel to
the modern shore and no discernible destination at their ends.
Field Investigations
The observations made by Ball and Gifford (1980) are;
"1. The three features are unconnected at the southwest end; scattered
blocks are present there but do not form a well-defined linear feature
connecting the seaward, middle, and shoreward features.
2. No evidence exists anywhere over the three features of two courses
of blocks, or even a single block set squarely atop another.
3. Not enough blocks lie in the vicinity of the three features to have
formed a now-destroyed second course of blocks.
4. Bedrock closely underlies the entire area of the three
features eliminating the possibility of excavations or channels
between them.
5. Indications are that the blocks of the inner and middle features
have always rested on a layer of loose sand. No evidence was
found of the blocks being cut into or founded on the underlying
bedrock surface.
6. In areas of the seaward feature where blocks rest directly on the
bedrock surface, no evidence was found of regular or symmetrical
supports beneath any of the blocks.
7. We saw no evidence on any of the blocks of regular or repeated
patterns of grooves or depressions that might be interpreted as tool
marks.
8. The inner and middle features are continuous only over a distance
of about 50 meters. Though the seaward feature extends several
hundred meters farther to the northeast, it too is not well founded
or continuous enough to have served as some kind of thoroughfare.
In fact, the only attributes of the three linear features that suggest a
human origin are the regular shapes of some of the blocks. These
are also attributes of natural beachrock deposits."
Laboratory Analysis
Their laboratory analysis found overwhelming evidence that the slabs
that composed the three linear features studied above consist of
natural beachrock of local origin. First, the shells and other grains
that compose the slabs are identical to the grains in the loose sediment
underlying the slabs. Second, the carbonate cements are typical of
cements found in modern beachrock. Third, oxygen and carbon isotope
composition of the cements that form the beachrock are consistent
with the composition of modern beachrock cements. Finally, the
radiocarbon dates obtained from the slabs of beachrock ranged in
age from about 2300 to 3200 B.P. for the shoreward line of
beachrock and a single date of about 6800 B.P. for the seaward
line of beachrock (Gifford 1973; Ball and Gifford 1980).
obtained some oriented cores from
one of the linear features. X-radiographs of 17 oriented cores
showed that the slope, particle size, dip direction, of the bedding
is consistent from one block to another within two areas studied.
If the blocks had been quarried from one place and laid out as a
road, the original stratigraphy of the beachrock would not have
been preserved. Clearly, these slabs represent beachrock that
developed in situ along three shorelines. They also dated 7 samples
from the slabs and obtained dates ranging from about 2750 to
3500 B.P. (Shinn 1978; McKusick and Shinn 1980).
Results
The results of the studies by Gifford (1973), Ball and Gifford (1980),
McKusick and Shinn (1980) clearly demonstrated that so-called
"Bimini Roads" are not man-made features. Rather, they represent
beachrock that formed along the shore of North Bimini Island at
three different shoreline during the Holocene when sea level was
lower than present. Also, the photomosaics demonstrate that the
lines of slabs are not well founded or continuous enough to have
served as any kind of road.
>There are clearly shown dressed stone columns in 30 feet of water.
> I can't remember the magazine, but somewhere I saw an article on
>a piece of carved sculpture that was brought up from this site. The
>figure was reportedly of some abstract feline form, and was a
>"cornerstone" of some sort.
At this time, you have failed to post any evidence that shows that
your "feline form" is in any way related to the limestone slabs
which you claim to be the "Bimini Road". Therefore, it is
discussed in a separate post with the "stone columns."
>Whether or not this is a fragment of something called Atlantis,
>those stone "formations" are OBVIOUSLY artificial, even with
>ages of ocean slime on them. They are not natural, as anyone
The only characteristic of these stone slabs suggestive of human
manufacture is their rectangular shape. If a person take the time
and trouble to study the available literature, that person would
find that there are several places where rectangular slabs of
beachrock are associated with carbonate beaches. In fact,
rectangularly-jointed beachrock that time will become
rectangular slabs of beachrock occurs on the west shore of
South Bimini Island.
Places where observed (reference)
1. Puerto Rica (Kye 1959)
2. Barbados (McLean 1964)
3. west shore of South Bimini (Ball and Gifford 1980)
4. Joulter Cays, Bahamas (Strasser and Davaud 1986:Figure 6a)
5. Heron Island, Australia (McKusick and Shinn (1980).
6. eastern Australia (Randi 1981).
Given the numerous locations at which the formation of rectangular
blocks is occurring, the rectangular shape of the slabs of beach rock
found off of Bimini Island cannot be used as evidence for their
human manufacture. Therefore, there is a complete lack of evidence
for any human modification of these slabs.
References cited;
Ball and Gifford (1980) - see above for citations.
Kye, Charles A, 1959, Shoreline features and Quaternary shoreline
changes, Puerto Rico. U. S. Geological Survey Professional Paper
no. 317-B, pp. 49-140.
McLean, Roger F., 1964, A regional study of the distribution,
forms, processes, and rates of mechanical and biological erosion
of a carbonate clastic rock in the littoral zone. Unpublished Ph.D.
dissertation, McGill University.
McKusick and Shinn (1980) - see above citations
Randi, J., 1981, Atlantean Road: the Bimini beach-rock.
Skeptical Inquirer, vol. 5, n0. 3, pp. 42-43.
Strasser and Davaud (1986) - see above citations
>ages of ocean slime on them. They are not natural, as anyone
>with enough gumption to actually look at the photographs before
>arguing against them would plainly see. All this knee-jerk "there
Ball and Gifford (1980) and Gifford (1973) had the "gumption"
to out and look at these beachrock slabs in person. As previously
noted, they were extremely unimpressed with the hypothesis that
they were artificially made. As describe above they, found
overwhelming evidence that these were indeed natural slabs of
beachrock lacking any human modification.
>was no Atlantis" is pure parrot party line. Even if it was there in
>pristine condition, I bet the majority of historians would say it
>was a Disney invention, rather than have to face the possibility there
>might be something about history they didn't know--and didn't have
>the mettle to admit their ignorance.
This is all malarkey and hot air. There are numerous archaeologists
that would sell their grandmother for evidence that Atlantis actually
existed and lust for the publications and grant money that such a
discovery would bring. Archaeologists are all too aware of what
they do not know. However, theories and speculation is cheap, it
is being able to prove a theory that makes a true scientist.
Back to article <DI3u8...@news.cis.umn.edu>,
in which m-h...@maroon.tc.umn.edu says;
>Something artificial is sitting on the ocean floor off Bimini,
>very much like old Port O Prince came to be in historical times,
>and the pedagogs have not a single word to account for it
>--except DENIAL.
I my opinion, the real people who are in denial are the people
who keep insisting that what they call the _Bimini Roads_ are
actual artificial structures. As above publications document,
there is an absolute lack of any evidence that they are roads or
any other man-made structures.
However, if people want to waste their lives chasing a ghost,
it is not my problem. However, they should not be claiming that
features are man-made structure without presenting some evidence
that they are artificial structures. Also, they have to refute the
work done by Ball (1980), Gifford (1973), and McKusick and
Shinn (1980) that provide direct evidence that these "roads" are
something more than natural beds of beachrock for specific reasons.
Simply dismissing this research as the work of bigoted and biased
archaeologists is insufficient reason to dismiss to hard work and
detailed research that clearly proves that the so-called Bimini Roads
are nothing more than Holocene beachrock formations.
Sincerely Yours;
Darby South
sout...@tyrell.net
Baton Rouge, La