My two cents (but worth what you actually paid for them)
Crosley Bendix
:takes her turn in the dreaded "TinyNAZI" debates.
I've read the multitudinous postings to Buckaroo's original posting, and
I join the ranks of those who are totally vexed by the whole situation.
The posting was so damned obtuse, I find it a little hard to believe that
anyone was actually able to understand enough of it to garner all these
violent reactions to it.
What can I say, of the postings I would say that Garrett was at least being
a bit diplomatic by stating the Islandia wizards had not sanctioned buck's
little group. I didn't detect that he was indicating we should only follow
wizardly declarations, (as Random most definitely did!). Only that that
particular comment was to be taken for what it was worth and hopefully NOT
discourage new builders on Islandia from even trying.
And now a few various comments:
(1) Random. TinyNAZI's??? Oh come now. That's a bit childish even for
your knee-jerk sensibilities.
(2) Jerry. You are the rightest of the right. This is just a GAME after
all and to be this riled over it to this degree is fairly
stupid.
(3) Buckaroo. Your intentions are wonderful to try and establish some
sort of Standards, but when you deal with people who
have had free-reign in what they want to build, you're
bound to encounter opposition. I'd think college age
men and women would be capable of opposing more tactfully,
though.
(4) Garrett. I know you are no longer Wizard by your own choosing. I
hope you chose to forsake the position for reasons OTHER
than a bunch of self-righteous weinies spouting a bunch of
silliness.
(5) Cindersoul (yes, Me). You should have quit this game like you promised
yourself a few weeks ago. Your image of the
open-minded mature college student is quickly
eroding.
Alright, I guess Ive got enough people mad at me for now, so Ill pipe down
Thank you all for listening.
Cindy "CinderSoul" Johansen, using another's account--
|
lar...@csufres.csufresno.edu <-----------------------|
Russ Nightfall Smith
->
->
->:takes her turn in the dreaded "TinyNAZI" debates.
->
[chuckle] Glad I could provide a name for them.
->I've read the multitudinous postings to Buckaroo's original posting, and
->I join the ranks of those who are totally vexed by the whole situation.
->The posting was so damned obtuse, I find it a little hard to believe that
->anyone was actually able to understand enough of it to garner all these
->violent reactions to it.
->
I hereby admit it: the violent reaction was mainly to Buckaroo in general,
not just that one post. I suspect I'm not the only one guilty of this.
->What can I say, of the postings I would say that Garrett was at least being
->a bit diplomatic by stating the Islandia wizards had not sanctioned buck's
->little group. I didn't detect that he was indicating we should only follow
->wizardly declarations, (as Random most definitely did!). Only that that
->particular comment was to be taken for what it was worth and hopefully NOT
->discourage new builders on Islandia from even trying.
The wording was bad on my part. Let me try one more time:
I don't care who says what about TinyHELL. But if they are not me, they might
be wrong, particularly about (a) policy (b) "landscape" (c) news, etc etc. Use
your imagination.
For instance, I am told that a certain amount of disinformation went on on
another mud last night in regard to TinyHELL before I arrived. No names are
being named here, and I honestly don't care much. But it is a good example.
->
->And now a few various comments:
->
-> (1) Random. TinyNAZI's??? Oh come now. That's a bit childish even for
-> your knee-jerk sensibilities.
->
Hey, my knee-jerk sensibilities are pretty childish. However, my .signature
clearly demonstrates my unwillingness to put smileys in a pre-prepared post.
Likewise that obnoxious IMHO thingy.
In other words, I was kidding. Sort of.
-> (2) Jerry. You are the rightest of the right. This is just a GAME after
-> all and to be this riled over it to this degree is fairly
-> stupid.
->
Unless, of course, you are having fun doing the riling. See: bob, Random.
-> (3) Buckaroo. Your intentions are wonderful to try and establish some
-> sort of Standards, but when you deal with people who
-> have had free-reign in what they want to build, you're
-> bound to encounter opposition. I'd think college age
-> men and women would be capable of opposing more tactfully,
-> though.
->
I think this is missing a bit of an issue. Why SHOULD standards be clamped
on people in such a transient, spare-time kind of thing? When I get paid
for building in tinymud, I'll conform to rigorous specs.
-> (4) Garrett. I know you are no longer Wizard by your own choosing. I
-> hope you chose to forsake the position for reasons OTHER
-> than a bunch of self-righteous weinies spouting a bunch of
-> silliness.
->
Sure he did. He did because (a) people always complained to him about things
on Islandia and (b) he wasn't responsible for those things, since he was
hardly, if ever, involved in Islandia decisions.
Sorry to put words in your mouth, Garrett. Free flame if I goofed up.
-> (5) Cindersoul (yes, Me). You should have quit this game like you promised
-> yourself a few weeks ago. Your image of the
-> open-minded mature college student is quickly
-> eroding.
->
Tsk. We could be out killing people in the town square instead of flaming
on alt.mud, you know...
Don't worry. This'll blow over as soon as it gets dull for all involved.
And one little private message: Buckaroo -- I confess only to transferring
my irritation at your personal beliefs for tinymud to your person. The rest
of your message, I have nothing to say about at this time.
->Alright, I guess Ive got enough people mad at me for now, so Ill pipe down
->Thank you all for listening.
->
->Cindy "CinderSoul" Johansen, using another's account--
-> |
->lar...@csufres.csufresno.edu <-----------------------|
--
--Russ "Nightfall" Smith-- | Wait, I'm LIVING my childhood power fantasies!
Randomized Ranter for Bob! |-----------------------------------------------
ru...@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu | DISCLAIMER1: Even smileys make my face ache...
Flame Dodger,1988 Olympics | DISCLAIMER2: IMHO IMHO IMHO. There, I said it!
Jon Blow
I'm going to explain a few things about how the IBC came about in the
first place, just in case you're curious.
A long time ago, TinyMUD went up. It was a really neat program where
you could walk around and talk to people and pretend like you were doing stuff.
And, on top of that-- what made it different from everything else-- was that
anyone could build stuff on the fly! It was really neat.
TinyMUD had sort of a problem, though, with junk. See, since anyone
could build, there was a *huge* supply of really interesting, creative
places to visit. The only problem was that it was hard to get to places like
that, since about 90% of the rooms you ever found weren't interesting at all.
And if you tried to explore, chances are you'd get lost and caught in some
uninteresting, unfinished place that the owner never cared enough to finish,
or even to provide any exits out of. All in all, it was a drag.
The Kingdom of Unlinked Exits was sort of a neat, quick way to get
to the area of your choice... except that there was no way out, it was
really messy, a lot of things weren't linked up too well, and most of the
areas in here were unfinished, too. In fact, the Kingdom of Unlinked Exits
was really really bad compared to the rest of the database, and so hardly
anyone ever went in there.
The most convenient way for good areas to be found was for their
owners to link them to the Rec Room; then, you just walked into the Rec
Room and asked if there were any good adventures or anything around, and
people would tell you, and you could go there. It was really neat, except
that after a while a lot of people decided they didn't like that either.
After a while, Garrett came up with the (somewhat secret) idea of
creating a good starting database for new muds. I thought it was a really
neat idea; muds had been popping up like flies all over the place, all with
the Town Square/Temple/etc setup and not much else. So a bunch of people
(including myself) worked really hard and theorized for a long time and came
up with a starting db; at the time we didn't have a site, but Garrett searched
for one, and meanwhile we kept building. (It was sort of a challenge for me;
at the time, I had only built one other thing at all, and it never got
finished.) Eventually, Garrett announced that he had found a site, and there
was much rejoicing, and the world was happy.
Now, at this time, nobody had thought a lot about general mud policy,
or, if anyone did, they sure didn't say much about it. Nobody was quite sure
how things would work out and if the place would actually become popular.
(During the first few weeks, it was rare to have 15 callers on at a time.)
After a while, though, we got a whole lot o' business.
When originally building the base used for Islandia, we had a few
solutions in mind to the problems that TinyMUD developed. One was
transportation-- we decided that teleport nexi were neither very productive
nor very necessary, and so Lynx came up with the stepdisc idea, which we
readily adopted. The second was a fragmentary database-- to help solve this,
the Designers' Recieving and Teleport Rooms were created. Here, you could
link whatever you wanted, and when it was done, you could get it connected
somewhere where people could adventure through and be happy, without having
to worry about getting caught in trap rooms.
This worked really well in theory, but not so well in practice;
the wizards sort of forgot to get around to telling people that this was
a good way to do things. This got around by word of mouth, sure, but
not very well. Soon, the TinyMUD problem began to spring up again-- wander
5 steps from the Town Square and find yourself trapped.
<<Note: right about here is where you should start paying attention.>>
Now, as things went on, and no exact wizard interaction policy was
ever laid out, an interesting thing developed. Garrett seemed to expect
the rest of the wizards to mail him and let him know what they wanted done
and how they wanted to do it; however, the rest of the wizards seemed to
expect Garrett to look at what they were doing and intervene when se saw
something wrong. Note that there's nothing evil, malicious, or otherwise
nasty in this; it's just the way things worked out.
By this time, the wizards had locked off a few areas that were just
spam-for-the-senses (consisting of trap rooms and the like mentioned above.)
At the rate Islandia was growing, the wizards decided that they didn't want
to do all this work (since wizards often have more important things to do)
and Lynx suggested the formation of a building committee. He asked me
to head it and get some other people for it, and I didn't really want to;
I shrugged it off for a couple weeks, then finally accepted the job because
it was something to do, and I was interested in building.
The functions of the IBC were to:
a) Advise people on good building, letting them know
how to do all the little building tricks
that a lot of people somehow never learn
b) Encourage the use of TransPort as the region to
build from until prospective areas are complete
c) Look at newly built areas and find good places for them
to be connected to the main world
d) Do some "policing" to make sure that areas which
trap people without warning are locked to the
owner until they are fixed.
As regards function d, please notice that the IBC contained no
wizards whatsoever; in order to lock an area, we had to make the suggestion
to a wizard, and, if the wizard agreed, the area would be locked. If the
wizard didn't agree with our decision, they woudn't lock it, and that was
that. As far as I know, there was never a disagreement case; this seemed
to indicate to me complete support of the wizards, as they both *suggested*
the IBC and *maintained* it.
I'd like now to answer a few hot comments which have been posted;
I wish to right now answer any questions or disputes about the IBC or what
was going on on Islandia. Hopefully you will all read this entire message
carefully before posting further, as it will save us all a lot of trouble.
<<Andrew C. Plotkin (Belford) writes:>>
) This intrigues me. I (as Belford) have linked two areas into Islandia.
) In one case, I asked Lynx for permission, and he told me to ask Buckaroo
) about the final inspection. In the other case, I left a note in the
) Planning Office, and Buckaroo okayed it and linked it in.
This is almost the case; the second time, I okayed Belford's area and told
Lynx, who then linked it in to an appropriate place. Please note that if
I hadn't done this, Belford could have just linked his new area to his old
one anyway, or to anyone else's who was willing.
<<Russ "Nightfall" Smith (Random) writes:>>
) Allow me to be the first to vote "no confidence". All I have seen and heard
) concerning building from Buckaroo seems to support that he earnestly believed
) EVERYTHING he wrote in that message. Particularly the bit about the power
) his committee (spit) had over who gets linked and who doesn't.
I'd like to go into a bit of detail on this one. First of all, remember
that the IBC was just a time-saving, work-saving device, and that we were
just doing what the wizards would have done anyway. The only reason we
locked things off was: Trap rooms. (With one exception: A series of
rooms with no descriptions or, indeed, anything but names and exits out.
Garrett manually locked this one himself; it belonged to Renge.) There
were a number of other things that constituted "good building" and which
the IBC actively mentioned often: exits to allow players to look at objects
in the room, descriptions on exits, etc. *However,* lack of any of these
things was *never* a reason to refuse a room. If you doubt this, go take
a look at Charlemagne's castle, east of the Mountain Peak area.
I *personally* believe that areas should be topologically sound and have all
sorts of niceties for them to be linked in, but that's my *opinion*.
Most of the people who've been posting about all sorts of nasty policies
that they don't like have been making references to my *opinion*, not
actual fact.
<<Jay Hinkelman (?) writes:>>
) Gee, I hate to put it this way, but I think the best authority on what
) Buckaroo had in mind in his posts is Buckaroo, not you.
See, as far as I knew, I had complete backing by the wizards, the IBC being
their creation.
<<Heresiarch (ashne) writes:>>
) i object to mud censorship by people with so little imagination that they
) can't an area that doesn't conform to their stunted, small-minded, and
) authoritarian notions of reality. who the hell are these people who have
) such finely tuned artistic and directional sensibilities that they think
) they should protect me from creative and rewarding mudding?
) go take a long walk off an unlinked exit, hm?
This strikes me as being a fairly stunted and unnecessary reply; ashne logs
relatively rarely onto Islandia, and it escapes my why she thought she even
began to know enough about the situation to fire up a retort like this.
"Censorship" was never performed; if an area was even close to being worth
being seen, it got added, ASAP. Please note that the entire purpose of the
IBC was to help people gain access to rewarding mudding without having to
fall into trap rooms and trudge through badly lnked areas.
<<John Kauffman writes:>>
) Some percentage of the rest will flourish, each with its own variety
) of hacked features and administrative models. It's my guess that there
) will be some MUD's with Toon-townesque anti-standards, and some with
) more restrictive standards designed to make the games more playable.
) This has already started to happen (Islandia and TinyHELL).
) So you can pick which game you like best. (I hope we can agree that
) the game that's most liked is the best game). The best games will
) flourish in whatever topological idiom they adopt, and the un-fun
) games will wither. And the best part is, they will do so without any
) kind of enforcement or standardization concerns. If you don't like
) the way a MUD is run, you can always ftp the source and run one of
) your own, hacked up to order.
I agree absolutely. The most abundant comment I've heard about Islandia
being neat is that the map was really good, and it was fun to be able to
explore without getting caught. I've heard lots of complaints about
'nasty' areas, and don't much like wandering into them myself; I think that
without them, the game is *much* more fun, and people who put effort into
building things can have their stuff seen much more easily.
Islandia had a small additional problem in that there wasn't enough
communication about what the different people in power actually wanted.
<<CinderSoul writes:>>
) Buckaroo. Your intentions are wonderful to try and establish some
) sort of Standards, but when you deal with people who
) have had free-reign in what they want to build, you're
) bound to encounter opposition.
I knew the opposition would come up, and is one of the main reasons why
I hesitated for so long before taking the job. It is also why the IBC
was kept very lenient. If we found stuff like teleport nexi, or messy
exit linkage, etc., we'd leave the owner a note, but that's all. Even
doing only this, I've still recieved a lot of flamage from people who
don't know much what they're talking about, but who wanted to jump on
the flame bandwagon just cuz it looks fun, or they're frustrated, or
something.
<<Garrett writes:>>
) > The only active wizard who didn't give input was Garrett, who
) > didn't know anything about this stuff over the weeks it was being decided
) > (how he didn't know is left as an exercise to the student.)
) Sigh. I'm getting awfully sick of this. OK.
Sorry about how this may have sounded at the time; I didn't read it that way.
By the 'exercise to the student' comment I was referring to the article I
had posted a few hours earlier about the lack of communication, something
which I have gone into detail on again and again.
<<Jerry Cornelius writes:>>
) Yes, well, please do it in personal E-mail rather than on the
) net. I would have thought this would be obvious.
The reason that message was posted to the net was as a clue to not only
Random, but everyone else who just decided to flame me all-out. It was
the only message of its kind I have posted and the only one I plan to post.
) you've proven you haven't got a lot to say that's worth my time.
I suppose that the blatant flames put forth by ashne and Random were worth
your time.
<<Louis Astra (Stormin) writes:>>
) but his later ones were both unfair and insulting.
I wrote one posting which I thought was insulting, but it was also fair,
in light of the rampant amounts of blind flame being tossed around.
The post was the result of a long buildup of bs piled upon my person by
a large number of people from all walks of life. Basically, I feel like
the main punching bag for the IBC, the wizards of Islandia, and the rest
of society. Oh what a feeling.
<about Random:>
) overall I find him to be fair and hardworking. TinyHELL runs because he
) gets space on uokmax and fights for it woth administrators.
Yes, Random does work very hard to maintain HELL. This is obvious in the
fact that HELL is still up, and one of the best muds there is to boot.
That doesn't, however, keep me from responding when I think he says something
unfair.
<<Russ "Nightfall" Smith (Random) writes (about Garrett):>>
) Sure he did. He did because (a) people always complained to him about things
) on Islandia and (b) he wasn't responsible for those things, since he was
) hardly, if ever, involved in Islandia decisions.
Not exactly true. As far as he knew, and as far as I knew, he was involved
in Islandia decisions. All the provisos for forming the IBC were qualified
by the condition "approved by Garrett." When we were given the go-ahead to
do stuff, I assumed that Garrett had seen everything and approved. The
lately-revealed fact that he sanctioned nothing at all was news to me.
And yes, a lot of people complained to him who shouldn't have, but you can't
blame them; you can't expect all sorts of newbies to know exactly who to talk
to for what.
<<Mutant writes:>>
) Therefore I have now founded the Islandia's Builders Antitopological
) Revolutionary Front (I BARF)....
) Remember, I BARF forever on Islandia!!!
This strikes me as a bit of an overreaction.
<<Vernon Lee (hugh) writes:>>
) My view, as "hugh", is this: any kind of committee should exist only in
) an advisory capacity, to help people learn how to build things.
Not a bad idea, and, in fact, the most important goal of the IBC. This
was what I really wanted us to do. OliverJones probably advised more
people than anyone-- a *huge* list-- and, as a whole, I think the committee
has voluntarily advised a lot of people.
There are probably a lot of things I've forgotten to say in this letter.
If you're curious about something, and have read this entire letter,
please feel free to ask. I really would like all this flaming to stop,
so if you have a flame, mail it to me, and I'll conveniently ignore it.
Buckaroo
- - -
"We are too proud to fight." --Woodrow Wilson 1856-1924
"Violence never settles anything." --Genghis Khan 1162-1227
"The mice voted to bell the cat." --Aesop c. 620-c. 560 B.C.
Keith Amidon
>OliverJones probably advised more
>people than anyone-- a *huge* list-- and, as a whole, I think the committee
>has voluntarily advised a lot of people.
I am curious if there is a file around on someone's machine with the
collected wisdom on how to build things reasonably. I am new to
MUDs, and while interested, I am in a total state of confusion as to
how to build things. I'm afraid the TinyDOC file I have is a little bit
on the terse side. Can anyone help me out?
Thanks, Keith
Jon Blow
There are a few places you can find some building hints in writing,
but if you're planning on becoming a building guru, you'll probably have
to just ask around.
When you apply for a character on TinyHELL you get back a big
letter in the mail that, among other things, shows you some building
examples and lets you know a bit about how things are done. There's also
a dictionary/encyclopedia on Islandia which can be helpful; however, as
far as I know, there's no Codex of Ultimate Building.
Buckaroo "Megaflops" Banzai
Mutant for Hire
><<Mutant writes:>>
>) Therefore I have now founded the Islandia's Builders Antitopological
>) Revolutionary Front (I BARF)....
>) Remember, I BARF forever on Islandia!!!
>This strikes me as a bit of an overreaction.
This is what I get for forgetting to put in the smiley faces. I was hoping
that the name was sufficient to get the humor across, along with other things
like how I feel about the IBC. Every group needs opposition, and I hoped to
create an opposition about as rational as the group that it was opposing.--
Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Physicist from Hell, Subpope and Antivirgin
mfte...@phoenix.princeton.edu MFTE...@PUCC.BITNET ter...@portia.stanford.edu
Disclaimer: These postings have been proven to cause cancer in US congressmen.
"The unlikely I do now, the unthinkable takes a little longer." -Martin Terman
Russ Nightfall Smith
->
-> I'm going to explain a few things about how the IBC came about in the
->first place, just in case you're curious.
->
Fair enough. I'm going to make a few replies. No flames, Buckaroo, you'll be
happy to hear. I've had my yuks. Let's see what we've got, here.
-> A long time ago, TinyMUD went up. It was a really neat program where
->you could walk around and talk to people and pretend like you were doing stuff.
->And, on top of that-- what made it different from everything else-- was that
->anyone could build stuff on the fly! It was really neat.
->
You betcha. I was immediately addicted. So addicted, I haranged Wiz again
and again to release the damned code so I could run another tinymud. But
hey, this is your story.
-> TinyMUD had sort of a problem, though, with junk. See, since anyone
->could build, there was a *huge* supply of really interesting, creative
->places to visit. The only problem was that it was hard to get to places like
->that, since about 90% of the rooms you ever found weren't interesting at all.
->And if you tried to explore, chances are you'd get lost and caught in some
->uninteresting, unfinished place that the owner never cared enough to finish,
->or even to provide any exits out of. All in all, it was a drag.
->
Agreed. I'm working on implementing Three's RECYCLE Plan, Phase 1, even
though I said I was going to get away from tinymud hacking since I would
prefer to have my own code, not to get in a "coding orgy".
-> The Kingdom of Unlinked Exits was sort of a neat, quick way to get
->to the area of your choice... except that there was no way out, it was
->really messy, a lot of things weren't linked up too well, and most of the
->areas in here were unfinished, too. In fact, the Kingdom of Unlinked Exits
->was really really bad compared to the rest of the database, and so hardly
->anyone ever went in there.
->
Yeah. I never went in there.
-> The most convenient way for good areas to be found was for their
->owners to link them to the Rec Room; then, you just walked into the Rec
->Room and asked if there were any good adventures or anything around, and
->people would tell you, and you could go there. It was really neat, except
->that after a while a lot of people decided they didn't like that either.
->
<shrug> It's only problem was the immense amount of traffic. See: Nexus.
->
-> After a while, Garrett came up with the (somewhat secret) idea of
->creating a good starting database for new muds. I thought it was a really
->neat idea; muds had been popping up like flies all over the place, all with
->the Town Square/Temple/etc setup and not much else. So a bunch of people
->(including myself) worked really hard and theorized for a long time and came
->up with a starting db; at the time we didn't have a site, but Garrett searched
->for one, and meanwhile we kept building. (It was sort of a challenge for me;
->at the time, I had only built one other thing at all, and it never got
->finished.) Eventually, Garrett announced that he had found a site, and there
->was much rejoicing, and the world was happy.
->
Yeah. I didn't get to do much on TinyBASE, but that's okay. Nowadays, I'm
sure Islandia users throw stuff at my statue at Unicorn Point.
[cut a bit]
->
-> This worked really well in theory, but not so well in practice;
->the wizards sort of forgot to get around to telling people that this was
->a good way to do things. This got around by word of mouth, sure, but
->not very well. Soon, the TinyMUD problem began to spring up again-- wander
->5 steps from the Town Square and find yourself trapped.
->
My first contention: too many wizards is a pain.
-><<Note: right about here is where you should start paying attention.>>
->
[more cut]
->
-> The functions of the IBC were to:
-> a) Advise people on good building, letting them know
-> how to do all the little building tricks
-> that a lot of people somehow never learn
This could be free-form. Anyone can advise, eh.
-> b) Encourage the use of TransPort as the region to
-> build from until prospective areas are complete
Likewise.
-> c) Look at newly built areas and find good places for them
-> to be connected to the main world
Better reason, I guess.
-> d) Do some "policing" to make sure that areas which
-> trap people without warning are locked to the
-> owner until they are fixed.
<shrug>
->
-> As regards function d, please notice that the IBC contained no
->wizards whatsoever; in order to lock an area, we had to make the suggestion
->to a wizard, and, if the wizard agreed, the area would be locked. If the
->wizard didn't agree with our decision, they woudn't lock it, and that was
->that. As far as I know, there was never a disagreement case; this seemed
->to indicate to me complete support of the wizards, as they both *suggested*
->the IBC and *maintained* it.
Define which, precisely, 'the wizards' maintained it.
->
[deletions]
->
-><<Russ "Nightfall" Smith (Random) writes:>>
->) Allow me to be the first to vote "no confidence". All I have seen and heard
->) concerning building from Buckaroo seems to support that he earnestly believed
->) EVERYTHING he wrote in that message. Particularly the bit about the power
->) his committee (spit) had over who gets linked and who doesn't.
->
->the IBC actively mentioned often: exits to allow players to look at objects
->in the room, descriptions on exits, etc. *However,* lack of any of these
->things was *never* a reason to refuse a room. If you doubt this, go take
->a look at Charlemagne's castle, east of the Mountain Peak area.
->I *personally* believe that areas should be topologically sound and have all
->sorts of niceties for them to be linked in, but that's my *opinion*.
->Most of the people who've been posting about all sorts of nasty policies
->that they don't like have been making references to my *opinion*, not
->actual fact.
->
You're right. I meant your opinions. The only contact I had with this
committee was you, and your insistence that a few areas should be locked off
because you didn't like them -- not because of traps. Not a flame; an
observation. That is where my opinion of your little group came from.
->
-><<Jay Hinkelman (?) writes:>>
->
->) Gee, I hate to put it this way, but I think the best authority on what
->) Buckaroo had in mind in his posts is Buckaroo, not you.
->
->See, as far as I knew, I had complete backing by the wizards, the IBC being
->their creation.
->
To my understanding, that didn't cover ALL the wizards. Is Islandia run
by majority, incidentally? Anyone know?
->
[deletions]
->
-><<John Kauffman writes:>>
->
->) more restrictive standards designed to make the games more playable.
->) This has already started to happen (Islandia and TinyHELL).
This, by the way, is a fallacy. There are few standards in tinyhell, besides
those that owners set down over what they'll give links to.
->I agree absolutely. The most abundant comment I've heard about Islandia
->being neat is that the map was really good, and it was fun to be able to
->explore without getting caught. I've heard lots of complaints about
->'nasty' areas, and don't much like wandering into them myself; I think that
->without them, the game is *much* more fun, and people who put effort into
->building things can have their stuff seen much more easily.
->Islandia had a small additional problem in that there wasn't enough
->communication about what the different people in power actually wanted.
->
On the other hand, people have talked up HELL because (a) I don't like to
intervene in what people do. It's a game, y'know (b) it's got an unusual
atmosphere, and (c) people there love roleplaying above all else, I think.
It's all in what you want.
->
-><<CinderSoul writes:>>
->
->) Buckaroo. Your intentions are wonderful to try and establish some
->) sort of Standards, but when you deal with people who
->) have had free-reign in what they want to build, you're
->) bound to encounter opposition.
->
->I knew the opposition would come up, and is one of the main reasons why
->I hesitated for so long before taking the job. It is also why the IBC
->was kept very lenient. If we found stuff like teleport nexi, or messy
->exit linkage, etc., we'd leave the owner a note, but that's all. Even
->doing only this, I've still recieved a lot of flamage from people who
->don't know much what they're talking about, but who wanted to jump on
->the flame bandwagon just cuz it looks fun, or they're frustrated, or
->something.
->
Let's be fair: then, there are those that do know, and just disagree with
you. But I will admit there are both types.
->
-><<Garrett writes:>>
->
->) > The only active wizard who didn't give input was Garrett, who
->) > didn't know anything about this stuff over the weeks it was being decided
->) > (how he didn't know is left as an exercise to the student.)
->
->) Sigh. I'm getting awfully sick of this. OK.
->
->Sorry about how this may have sounded at the time; I didn't read it that way.
->By the 'exercise to the student' comment I was referring to the article I
->had posted a few hours earlier about the lack of communication, something
->which I have gone into detail on again and again.
->
It was obnoxious, and almost tempted me to get REALLY huffy. <huff huff>
->
-><<Jerry Cornelius writes:>>
->
->) Yes, well, please do it in personal E-mail rather than on the
->) net. I would have thought this would be obvious.
->
->The reason that message was posted to the net was as a clue to not only
->Random, but everyone else who just decided to flame me all-out. It was
->the only message of its kind I have posted and the only one I plan to post.
->
Your post to me offered no clues. This one, I must say, is well-done.
->) you've proven you haven't got a lot to say that's worth my time.
->
->I suppose that the blatant flames put forth by ashne and Random were worth
->your time.
->
Well, that looks like what he said. I won't attempt to answer for him.
->
-><<Louis Astra (Stormin) writes:>>
->
->) but his later ones were both unfair and insulting.
->
->I wrote one posting which I thought was insulting, but it was also fair,
->in light of the rampant amounts of blind flame being tossed around.
->The post was the result of a long buildup of bs piled upon my person by
->a large number of people from all walks of life. Basically, I feel like
->the main punching bag for the IBC, the wizards of Islandia, and the rest
->of society. Oh what a feeling.
->
Well, guy, you stood out at the open, and you got shot at. It may not be
fair, but it is typical.
-><about Random:>
->
->) overall I find him to be fair and hardworking. TinyHELL runs because he
->) gets space on uokmax and fights for it woth administrators.
Thanks, Stormy.
->
->Yes, Random does work very hard to maintain HELL. This is obvious in the
->fact that HELL is still up, and one of the best muds there is to boot.
->That doesn't, however, keep me from responding when I think he says something
->unfair.
->
I had no problem with you being irritated, nor with you responding. I'm not
unfair, you know. Just irascible. And a bad speller, I suspect.
->
-><<Russ "Nightfall" Smith (Random) writes (about Garrett):>>
->
->) Sure he did. He did because (a) people always complained to him about things
->) on Islandia and (b) he wasn't responsible for those things, since he was
->) hardly, if ever, involved in Islandia decisions.
->
->Not exactly true. As far as he knew, and as far as I knew, he was involved
->in Islandia decisions. All the provisos for forming the IBC were qualified
->by the condition "approved by Garrett." When we were given the go-ahead to
->do stuff, I assumed that Garrett had seen everything and approved. The
->lately-revealed fact that he sanctioned nothing at all was news to me.
->And yes, a lot of people complained to him who shouldn't have, but you can't
->blame them; you can't expect all sorts of newbies to know exactly who to talk
->to for what.
->
You started out 'not exactly true', then went on to admit that it may indeed
be true, but new news to you. I suspect the latter.
->
-><<Mutant writes:>>
->
->) Therefore I have now founded the Islandia's Builders Antitopological
->) Revolutionary Front (I BARF)....
->) Remember, I BARF forever on Islandia!!!
->
->This strikes me as a bit of an overreaction.
->
No. It's humor, son. You used it yourself, remember?
->
-><<Vernon Lee (hugh) writes:>>
->
->) My view, as "hugh", is this: any kind of committee should exist only in
->) an advisory capacity, to help people learn how to build things.
->
->Not a bad idea, and, in fact, the most important goal of the IBC. This
->was what I really wanted us to do. OliverJones probably advised more
->people than anyone-- a *huge* list-- and, as a whole, I think the committee
->has voluntarily advised a lot of people.
->
I have no problem with that -- but I hardly see the need for any kind of
official construct.
->
->There are probably a lot of things I've forgotten to say in this letter.
->If you're curious about something, and have read this entire letter,
->please feel free to ask. I really would like all this flaming to stop,
->so if you have a flame, mail it to me, and I'll conveniently ignore it.
->
I trust you found no flames in this post.
->Buckaroo
->- - -
->"We are too proud to fight." --Woodrow Wilson 1856-1924
->"Violence never settles anything." --Genghis Khan 1162-1227
->"The mice voted to bell the cat." --Aesop c. 620-c. 560 B.C.
--
--Russ "Nightfall" Smith-- | "Grow up...Stop whining." --Tim Maroney, to me
Heresiarch
Heresiarch
infinite electronic wisdom decided to send my post out without text. apologies
if this is a duplicate for anyone.]
In article <35...@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, bl...@volcano.Berkeley.EDU (Jon Blow)
writes:
[stuff deleted]
> <<Heresiarch (ashne) writes:>>
>
> ) i object to mud censorship by people with so little imagination that they
> ) can't an area that doesn't conform to their stunted, small-minded, and
> ) authoritarian notions of reality. who the hell are these people who have
> ) such finely tuned artistic and directional sensibilities that they think
> ) they should protect me from creative and rewarding mudding?
>
> ) go take a long walk off an unlinked exit, hm?
>
> This strikes me as being a fairly stunted and unnecessary reply; ashne logs
> relatively rarely onto Islandia,
says you. i've been logging nearly two hours a day steadily on islandia
(except during balticon). it was the first place i went of all places to
announce to my friends that i'd finished my thesis.
> and it escapes my why she thought she even
> began to know enough about the situation to fire up a retort like this.
i knew because garrett told me. just because you don't listen to him doesn't
mean he has no opinion. we've been planning on reconstructing my adventure
from mud in islandia due to complaints about two few puzzles. garrett pointed
out that my adventure wouldn't pass the guidelines AS POSTED by bucky on this
newsgroup. (i figure if i can't build my adventure on islandia, i'll do it on
hell and stay over there)
> "Censorship" was never performed; if an area was even close to being worth
> being seen, it got added, ASAP. Please note that the entire purpose of the
> IBC was to help people gain access to rewarding mudding without having to
> fall into trap rooms and trudge through badly lnked areas.
i flamed the post as it appeared in this newsgroup. if real-life policy is
different, then no one should have posted a satire on such a sensitive subject
and expect to dismiss the resulting furor by saying 'hey, it was just a joke!'
[more stuff deleted]
> <<Garrett writes:>>
>
> ) > The only active wizard who didn't give input was Garrett, who
> ) > didn't know anything about this stuff over the weeks it was being decided
> ) > (how he didn't know is left as an exercise to the student.)
>
> ) Sigh. I'm getting awfully sick of this. OK.
>
> Sorry about how this may have sounded at the time; I didn't read it that way.
> By the 'exercise to the student' comment I was referring to the article I
> had posted a few hours earlier about the lack of communication, something
> which I have gone into detail on again and again.
and just lay off of garrett, ok? he put lots and lots of work into this
project and is now getting blamed for everything that doesn't work out
perfectly and receiving no credit for what he has done so well. this strikes
me as a good way to discourage prospective wizards from donating their time to
make muds more playable.
> <<Jerry Cornelius writes:>>
>
> ) Yes, well, please do it in personal E-mail rather than on the
> ) net. I would have thought this would be obvious.
>
> The reason that message was posted to the net was as a clue to not only
> Random, but everyone else who just decided to flame me all-out. It was
> the only message of its kind I have posted and the only one I plan to post.
>
> ) you've proven you haven't got a lot to say that's worth my time.
>
> I suppose that the blatant flames put forth by ashne and Random were worth
> your time.
just because you can't possibly match our eloquence and clarity is no reason to
dismiss our posts as wastes of time.
>
> <<Louis Astra (Stormin) writes:>>
>
> ) but his later ones were both unfair and insulting.
>
> I wrote one posting which I thought was insulting, but it was also fair,
> in light of the rampant amounts of blind flame being tossed around.
> The post was the result of a long buildup of bs piled upon my person by
> a large number of people from all walks of life. Basically, I feel like
> the main punching bag for the IBC, the wizards of Islandia, and the rest
> of society. Oh what a feeling.
so learn something from the experience and stop dumping responsibility for the
mess on garrett.
[deleted]
> <<Mutant writes:>>
>
> ) Therefore I have now founded the Islandia's Builders Antitopological
> ) Revolutionary Front (I BARF)....
> ) Remember, I BARF forever on Islandia!!!
>
> This strikes me as a bit of an overreaction.
actually, i think it's quite appropriate. I BARF forever! martin is our
savior, who died that we may be safe from topology (or trolls, whatever)!
[more junk deleted]
> Buckaroo
> - - -
> "We are too proud to fight." --Woodrow Wilson 1856-1924
> "Violence never settles anything." --Genghis Khan 1162-1227
> "The mice voted to bell the cat." --Aesop c. 620-c. 560 B.C.
ashne
______________________________________________________________________________
Organization: Grand People's Fascist Monarchy of Nebutu (The Sprawling Chaos)
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