Justifying the Vietnam War

[Ralph McGehee]

[Edward Combs Jr.]

When I was there in 1964 the saying going about was : "Be hip zap a zip". I think only a few care how many VC were killed. This is just MHO. ................. Ralph McGehee <rmcg...@igc.org> wrote in message news:36D95CBA...@igc.org... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Justifying the Vietnam War > In an earlier message one poster (in alt.war.vietnam) rued that >the Phoenix Program did not start earlier. Trying to change anyone's >mind now about the Vietnam War is a Sisyphean-like labor but a couple >of items might be worth mentioning -- with effect or not. > From the below we see that the Phoenix program administrator >credited the program with up to 35,000 assassinations: >The Phoenix Program and the PRU's. > Vietnam, 65-75 The (CIAs) PRU's concentrated most of their efforts on > eradicating Viet Cong cadres in the rural areas. PRU's consistently killed > more communists than they captured. PRU national director, William Redel > said at the end of 68 that the PRU's have been responsible "for > approximately seven thousand Vietcong killed per year for the past four > or five years." The author estimates that the PRU's captured or killed > 700 to 1,500 communists during most months from 67 to 72. phoenix. > M. Moyar. (1997). Phoenix and the Birds of Prey 170-3, 206 > Other information below shows the total number of people killed >during the war. A war that was portrayed to us in different time >frames variously as a war against Soviet Communism, Chinese hegemony, >fighting the International Communist Conspiracy, a civil war, etc. > I wonder what degree of casualties are acceptable to the war >backers -- is there any limit? Why were we fighting in Vietnam? >Did we achieve that (those) goals? >Ralph McGehee >http://come.to/CIABASE > The Viet Cong were winning because they were leading a social revolution. > Reasons for staying in Vietnam cited by top Defense Department > Official, Mcnaughton as 70% to avoid a humiliating defeat; 20% to keep > South Vietnam (and the adjacent) territory from Chinese hands; and, 10% > to permit the people of Vietnam to enjoy a better, freer > way of life. Sheehan, N. (1988). A Bright Shining Lie 518-9, 535 > On the 20th anniversary of the end of the war Hanoi revealed the civilian > casualties of the Vietnam war were 2,000,000 in the North, and 2,000,000 > in the South. Military casualties were 1.1 million killed and > 600,000 wounded in 21 years of war (1963-74). These figures were > deliberately falsified during the war by North Vietnam to avoid demoralizing > the population. On the U.S. side, the figures given are 58,200 soldiers > killed, 223,748 South Vietnamese soldiers, and 5,200 South Koreans, > Australians, New Zealanders, and Thai's. These figures don't factor in Laos > and Cambodia. Given a Vietnamese population of around 38 million during > war, Vietnamese casualties represent a good 12-13% of the country. Agence > France Presse (rough translation) 9/4/95

[William Langston]

Yeah, that's one of the great things about communism; you can keep
things quiet so you don't demoralize the population. Just gotta love
those commies, don't ya? Wonder how it would have ended if we could have
kept things quiet?

Yours truly, Bill Langston.

> and Cambodia. Given a Vietnamese population of around 38 million during the

[bnpham]

If the SVNese assassination team was that good, then I guess the
communists in the South would have collapsed long ago.

According to Mr. William Colby, the majority of the killings were
the result of fire fights between the SVNese units with the
communist infrastructure parties together with their protective
units.

The Phoenix program aimed at the communist infrastructures, that's
true. And the communist infrastructures were like their tax
collectors, their local leaderships etc... However these communist
infrastructure types were not simply tax collectors, local party
administrators etc... They were fighters as well, and they almost
always travel with their defensive units to protect them. Thus
most of the time, when there is an attempt to capture these men,
it would invariably result in a fire fight. Therefore most of
them died in battle, not simple assassinations.

If the Pheonix program was to be successful, it would be better
to capture the enemy, and learn about their organizations,
infrastructures, not just assassinate them.

[rmcg...@igc.org]

So the free press is why we lost the war?
Ralph McGehee
http://come.to/CIABASE

In article <36DA35EF...@iosa.com>,

William Langston <l...@iosa.com> wrote:
> Yeah, that's one of the great things about communism; you can keep
> things quiet so you don't demoralize the population. Just gotta love
> those commies, don't ya? Wonder how it would have ended if we could have
> kept things quiet?
>
> Yours truly, Bill Langston.
>

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[rmcg...@igc.org]

I learned a long time ago not to credit anything William Colby said
about Vietnam. He held a number of positions in CIA re Vietnam
and he rarely (in my opinion)seemed constrained to tell the truth
about events there. There is the statement by the Phoenix coordinator
re the assassinations -- this is probably much more believable
than Colby's comments.
Ralph McGehee
http://come.to/CIABASE

In article <36DA668F...@foxinternet.net>,

bnp...@foxinternet.net wrote:
> If the SVNese assassination team was that good, then I guess the
> communists in the South would have collapsed long ago.
>
> According to Mr. William Colby, the majority of the killings were
> the result of fire fights between the SVNese units with the
> communist infrastructure parties together with their protective
> units.
>
> The Phoenix program aimed at the communist infrastructures, that's
> true. And the communist infrastructures were like their tax
> collectors, their local leaderships etc... However these communist
> infrastructure types were not simply tax collectors, local party
> administrators etc... They were fighters as well, and they almost
> always travel with their defensive units to protect them. Thus
> most of the time, when there is an attempt to capture these men,
> it would invariably result in a fire fight. Therefore most of
> them died in battle, not simple assassinations.
>
> If the Pheonix program was to be successful, it would be better
> to capture the enemy, and learn about their organizations,
> infrastructures, not just assassinate them.
>

[William Langston]

Just trying to be cynical Ralph. Yes, it's one of the reasons.

Yours truly, Bill Langston.

rmcg...@igc.org wrote:
>
> So the free press is why we lost the war?

> Ralph McGehee
> http://come.to/CIABASE
>

> In article <36DA35EF...@iosa.com>,
> William Langston <l...@iosa.com> wrote:
> > Yeah, that's one of the great things about communism; you can keep
> > things quiet so you don't demoralize the population. Just gotta love
> > those commies, don't ya? Wonder how it would have ended if we could have
> > kept things quiet?
> >
> > Yours truly, Bill Langston.
> >

[bnp...@foxinternet.net]

Actually I find what William Colby wrote was a lot more believable
because of the logics behind it, and the known knowledge about
the way of the communists.

To say that all the deaths attributed to assassinations is to much
oversimplyfing, wouldn't you say? And there are just no enough
ninjas in South VN to do the quantity of the assassinations
against the very militancy VCs as the statement you cited
suggested.

So from William Colby testifying before the Congress, the logics
behind it, some good knowledge about the VCs one can see that it
was no lie, unlike the sounding rhetorics with no logics to
support in your citation.

rmcg...@igc.org wrote:
I learned a long time ago not to credit anything William Colby said
about Vietnam. He held a number of positions in CIA re Vietnam
and he rarely (in my opinion)seemed constrained to tell the truth
about events there. There is the statement by the Phoenix coordinator
re the assassinations -- this is probably much more believable
than Colby's comments.

Ralph McGehee
http://come.to/CIABASE

In article <36DA668F...@foxinternet.net>,

bnp...@foxinternet.net wrote:
> If the SVNese assassination team was that good, then I guess the
> communists in the South would have collapsed long ago.
>
> According to Mr. William Colby, the majority of the killings were
> the result of fire fights between the SVNese units with the
> communist infrastructure parties together with their protective
> units.
>
> The Phoenix program aimed at the communist infrastructures, that's
> true. And the communist infrastructures were like their tax
> collectors, their local leaderships etc... However these communist
> infrastructure types were not simply tax collectors, local party
> administrators etc... They were fighters as well, and they almost
> always travel with their defensive units to protect them. Thus
> most of the time, when there is an attempt to capture these men,
> it would invariably result in a fire fight. Therefore most of
> them died in battle, not simple assassinations.
>
> If the Pheonix program was to be successful, it would be better
> to capture the enemy, and learn about their organizations,
> infrastructures, not just assassinate them.
>

[William Langston]

Oh, I misread your post Michael. I thought you were talking about the
good folks back in the world. <G>

Semper Fi, Bill Langston.

pat...@memes.com wrote:
>
> On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 00:31:38 GMT, "*{Michael}*" <vn10...@netcom.ca>
> wrote:
>
> Only the children.
>
> (It didn't hurt to have cigarettes and candy for them though).
> >
> >I don't believe the population liked us anymore than the NVA!
> >
> >
> >

[William Langston]

Hell Michael, I got medivac'd and all my stuff was packed up and sent
home. When I got it a year later, Someone had took my Bulova Accutron
watch and put their watch in the box. Damn thing didn't even work. <G>
Guess they figured I was dead and would not miss it. Also stole an VC
flag I had traded a guy for.

Semper Fi, Bill Langston.

*{Michael}* wrote:

>
> >pat...@memes.com wrote:
>
> >Only the children.
> >(It didn't hurt to have cigarettes and candy for them though).
>
> >>I don't believe the population liked us anymore than the NVA!
>

> Rarely ran across them! There was one time when they piled a bunch of us on
> a truck and drove into Hue. For what reason, I forget. I was still a
> cherry. Had my left arm hanging off the side. In a second, my watch was
> gone. It's probably still tickin'!
>
>

[*{Michael}*]

>William Langston <l...@iosa.com> wrote:

>Yeah, that's one of the great things about communism; you can keep
>things quiet so you don't demoralize the population. Just gotta love
>those commies, don't ya? Wonder how it would have ended if we could have
>kept things quiet?
>Yours truly, Bill Langston.

I don't believe the population liked us anymore than the NVA!

[pat...@memes.com]

On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 00:31:38 GMT, "*{Michael}*" <vn10...@netcom.ca>

wrote:

Only the children.

(It didn't hurt to have cigarettes and candy for them though).
>

[Gregory G. Petersen]

Speaking of Colby -- how many people here were told about the "wonderful"
opportunity to get out of service early and make 50k a year working in Thailand. As
I recall it was to "drive the border" (Thai - Cambodia) and was for the Thai
government (paid not doubt by the CIA). Anyone know anyone who took that offer up
or even recall that. I heard it in April, 1968. I almost said yes 'til a S/M told
me that I was too young and too stupid to know what they were talking about and that
it was CIA/Air America stuff.

Greg

[pat...@memes.com]

On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 00:37:13 GMT, "Gregory G. Petersen"
<gr...@LawNet.Com> wrote:

>Speaking of Colby -- how many people here were told about the "wonderful"
>opportunity to get out of service early and make 50k a year working in Thailand.

I can't think of anyone that didn't get the "offer" from the group I
was with at Long Beach when we were ready to get out. I went to
Mexico for about two years, plenty of excitement for me.

[*{Michael}*]

>pat...@memes.com wrote:

>Only the children.
>(It didn't hurt to have cigarettes and candy for them though).

>>I don't believe the population liked us anymore than the NVA!

Rarely ran across them! There was one time when they piled a bunch of us on

[rmcg...@igc.org]

What type of society would we have without a free press?
What do you recommend as an alternative?

Ralph McGehee
http://come.to/CIABASE

In article <36DAEA26...@iosa.com>,

William Langston <l...@iosa.com> wrote:
> Just trying to be cynical Ralph. Yes, it's one of the reasons.
>
> Yours truly, Bill Langston.
>
> rmcg...@igc.org wrote:
> >
> > So the free press is why we lost the war?

> > Ralph McGehee
> > http://come.to/CIABASE
> >
> > In article <36DA35EF...@iosa.com>,

> > William Langston <l...@iosa.com> wrote:
> > > Yeah, that's one of the great things about communism; you can keep
> > > things quiet so you don't demoralize the population. Just gotta love
> > > those commies, don't ya? Wonder how it would have ended if we could have
> > > kept things quiet?
> > >
> > > Yours truly, Bill Langston.
> > >

[HOLLIS6475]

>From: rmcg...@igc.org
>Date: 3/2/99 4:20 AM Pacific

>What type of society would we have without a free press?

Free press???????? Local paper 50cents per day and $1.50 on sunday, It is
owned by a small group............ Free press is a interesting concept. do we
really have one????????

Hollis

100% DVA, III MAF, Lima 3/3, India 3/3 RVN 1969 USMC

[William Langston]

By God, we got one now!! I sittin here reading it. <G>

Semper Fi, Bill Langston.

[johne]

The next time you log on, try to contact a ng in China, or North Korea, or
Cuba, or Serbia, or Iraq, or Iran. Then try to see how many ng's they have
in this country (my ISP lists 25,000 of them) and see how many servers
refuse you access to a ng, like government controlled servers do in those
countries. This is freedom of the press. You may not like me, or my ideas,
but you can't very stop me from posting them. Because this is the press,
just as much as the ----- Daily Bugle is the press. Only this is a new form
of the press. And it's about as free as the press could possibly be or ever
get.
--

The truth will make you free, if you survive long enough.

HOLLIS6475 wrote in message
<19990302115517...@ng-ce1.aol.com>...

[Ted Gittinger]

johne wrote in message <7bkcqt$212$1...@winter.news.rcn.net>...

>The next time you log on, try to contact a ng in China, or North Korea, or
>Cuba, or Serbia, or Iraq, or Iran. Then try to see how many ng's they have
>in this country (my ISP lists 25,000 of them) and see how many servers
>refuse you access to a ng, like government controlled servers do in those
>countries. This is freedom of the press. You may not like me, or my
ideas,
>but you can't very stop me from posting them. Because this is the press,
>just as much as the ----- Daily Bugle is the press. Only this is a new
form
>of the press. And it's about as free as the press could possibly be or
ever
>get.
>--

Agree entirely. Freedom of the press was one of the aggregates many of us
hoped to see come into reality as a result of our overall effort in South
Vietnam,along with freedom of assembly and so forth--as remote as that
possibility seemed at the time, all too often. Buit somehow we kept sucking
it up and trying again.

And yet in retrospect it seems rather more likely that we should have failed
than succeeded.

So whose fault is that, exactly? We fought for one thing, failed, and got
another. Okay. All bulldozer operators who are willing to fault us for
that, hold up your hands. And be sure to be reading a classified TWX while
you do so, thanks.

Warm expectorations,

ted gittinger

[Ted Gittinger]

Bill Clarke wrote in message
<_6lD2.1686$kS2.18...@dca1-nnrp1.news.digex.net>...

>>it up and trying again.

. All bulldozer operators who are willing to fault us for
>>that, hold up your hands. And be sure to be reading a classified TWX
while
>>you do so, thanks.
>>
>>Warm expectorations,
>>
>>ted gittinger
>>

>Now wait just a damn minute ted. From time to time I have to get back on a
>bulldozer, usually when one of the hands is too hung over or too in love to
>come to work, and I want to know why you are picking on us. Do I need to
>give you a little talk on generalization and stereotyping.

Dagnabbit, Bill, you know bloody well I wasn't talking about anybody in the
sacred confines of East Texas when I made that crack. I were referring to
certain individuals who claim to have been combat engineers in Vietnam and
to have been reading the backchannel traffic of the JCS at the same time.

> Me, with a
>humble state college education and living in East Texas, and you at the
>University of Liberal Thought in the most liberal bastion in Texas.

William--you will note that I get more formal as this progresses--I have an
MA from Sam Houston State U., which is as greenstump East Texas as it gets.
Furthermore, I would have you to know that I am aware of what a bowfin is,
and when the dogwood blooms. I have fished the Trinity, the San Jacinto,
Dam B, Lake Livingston, and more creeks than any decent man can recall,
wading them with a minnow bucket and fly rod. I have hunted the wampus
kitty , the cane bottom squirrel, and the reefernoutious. I spent a summer
as a "custodian" at The Walls Unit in Huntsville,where I Iearned the joys of
Red Man and Copenhagen, not to mention Peach Plug and Day's Work.

I have sat in "Sparky."

I have holped snake out logs.

I never intended no insult to honest folk.

Buy you a beer?

Warm regards,

ted

[Bill Clarke]

Ted Gittinger wrote in message <7bkjfg$jnd$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>...

>
>Agree entirely. Freedom of the press was one of the aggregates many of us
>hoped to see come into reality as a result of our overall effort in South
>Vietnam,along with freedom of assembly and so forth--as remote as that
>possibility seemed at the time, all too often. Buit somehow we kept
sucking

>it up and trying again.
>

>And yet in retrospect it seems rather more likely that we should have
failed
>than succeeded.
>
>So whose fault is that, exactly? We fought for one thing, failed, and got

>another. Okay. All bulldozer operators who are willing to fault us for

>that, hold up your hands. And be sure to be reading a classified TWX while
>you do so, thanks.
>
>Warm expectorations,
>
>ted gittinger
>
Now wait just a damn minute ted. From time to time I have to get back on a
bulldozer, usually when one of the hands is too hung over or too in love to
come to work, and I want to know why you are picking on us. Do I need to

give you a little talk on generalization and stereotyping. Me, with a

humble state college education and living in East Texas, and you at the

University of Liberal Thought in the most liberal bastion in Texas. I
should hope not Sir, and I must say I am shocked and disappointed in you, of
all people.

And that crack about reading a classified TWX is pretty damn cruel Mr. You
know damn good and well that none of us can get a security clearance
anymore, even if we could read.

Well, at least you called us operators instead of drivers like some FNG. I
guess that’s something.

Your Pal,
Bill Clarke, who has a lot of faith in tracked vehicles.

[Bill Clarke]

Ted Gittinger wrote in message <7bl2ck$48j$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>...

>
>I never intended no insult to honest folk.
>
>Buy you a beer?
>
>Warm regards,
>
>ted
>
>

Aw hell ted, I was just having a little fun. I knew you’d spent enough time
in East Texas to qualify as a native son. I’ll sure drink your beer.

Bill Clarke
F Troop, 17th Cav

[Gregory G. Petersen]

East Texas -- you mean like Kingsville? They ain't got no beer there!!!

Greg

[Bill Clarke]

Gregory G. Petersen wrote in message <36DEAE8D...@LawNet.Com>...

East Texas -- you mean like Kingsville? They ain't got no beer there!!!

Greg

They got beer where me and ted stays or we probably wouldn’t stay there.
Come on down and drink one with us. Kingsville (King Ranch) is a hard days
drive from my house in deep south Texas. I’m closer to New Orleans.

[Ted Gittinger]

Gregory G. Petersen wrote in message <36DEAE8D...@LawNet.Com>...
East Texas -- you mean like Kingsville? They ain't got no beer there!!!

Greg

Kingsville?

KINGSVILLE?

My God man, get a map, and a grip. Kingsville is in the middle of the South
Texas brush couintry, on the edge of the Gulf Coastal Plain.

And they damn sure betcha have beer. You can get it to go, with tacos al
carbon de mollejas, o de tripas, o lo que quieda. Como que "they ain't got
no beer?"

Warm regards,

ted

[Gregory G. Petersen]

When I was in Kingsville (circa 1966) it sure seemed EAST Texas to me. But then
again it seemed South Texas too -- in fact that state was so damn big it really
didn't matter -- but it still didn't have any beer <G>

Greg

[Gregory G. Petersen]

Since my brother lives in Dallas area I may take you up on that one day.

Greg

Bill Clarke wrote:

> Gregory G. Petersen wrote in message <36DEAE8D...@LawNet.Com>...
> East Texas -- you mean like Kingsville? They ain't got no beer there!!!
>
> Greg
>