Southern Kuril Islands
sta...@ibm.net
Japanese are still trying to get Kunashir, Etoroppu, Habomai, Shikotana.
All people around the world should prevent those islands from being
sent back to Japan by Russia. Otherwise, Japanese imperialism will
restore and start the massive invasion.
Joe Stalin
michael & marika Grossman
giving up land is a political suicide. And let us not forget that this
land was not always populated by Japan or by Russians, but rather by
indigenous people. Should Russia start giving up its territories then
NOTHING is sacred.
Banzai, tovarish Stalin!
Mike Grossman, E. Bridgewater, Mass.
ichikawa
>Sertainly, no Russian president will dare to give up land. Because
>giving up land is a political suicide. And let us not forget that this
>land was not always populated by Japan or by Russians, but rather by
>indigenous people. Should Russia start giving up its territories then
>NOTHING is sacred.
>Banzai, tovarish Stalin!
>Mike Grossman, E. Bridgewater, Mass.
We are claiming not only southern part of Kurils but also north
Kurils, Kamchatka peninsula, and Sakhalin island that have
belonged to Japan before but stolen by Russians (cf.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/
homepages/flsoft). Yes, those lands have been populated by Ainu
people (Kamchatka means in Ainu language "place where you dry
salmon") but you have forgot to mention that Ainus are Japanese
too: they have never formed an independent country and never
wanted to from one, while Tibetans and Chechens, yes.
In Ainu's legend, at the beginning the world was muddy.
Then a wagtail came and solidified the lands with its legs and
wings. In Japanese legend, at the beginning the world was muddy
too. At first, the couple of gods, Izanami and Izanagi didn't
know how to make a love. By looking wagtails, they learned it and gave
birth to lands and gods (among others, Amaterasu, goddess of sun).
Yes, the coincidence of the 2 legends is surprising and it is obvious
that Ainu's heritage forms a great part of the Japanese culture.
In fact, after the studies of blood type and anatomy, it has been
shown that the Japanese living in the north Honshyu (region of Tohoku)
came from a mixing of the 2 races, Ainus and Yamatos (ordinary
Japanese). On the contrary, the inhabitants of Hokkaido are closer to
the ordinary Japanese. Why? Because Westerners (among others Russians)
didn't want to recognised Ainus as Japanese and it became
hard to keep the Ainu's territory. So the government sent a
great number of voluntaries from all parts of Japan into the Ainu's
territory in order to keep them.
The colonialism and the ethnic cleansing are the very invention of the
western countries: they were unknown in the ancient
Japan.
Free Light Software -
Publisher of Free Light Japanese -
A Japanese learning software for Windows and Macintosh -
Please visit http://www.mdn.com/oksoftware to discover the product.
Shimpei Yamashita
>
>gro...@ix.netcom.com(michael & marika Grossman ) wrote:
>
>>Sertainly, no Russian president will dare to give up land. Because
>>giving up land is a political suicide.
So? How does that justify Russia's occupation? Japan did not elect
Boris Yeltsin, you know.
>>And let us not forget that this
>>land was not always populated by Japan or by Russians, but rather by
>>indigenous people.
Give it back to the Ainus as their own nation, then. Why should Moscow
get fat off of the Ainu's land?
>>Should Russia start giving up its territories then
>>NOTHING is sacred.
Well, it will certainly be a blow to the arrogance of some Russian
people like you and sta...@ibm.net. That's fine with me.
>We are claiming not only southern part of Kurils but also north
>Kurils, Kamchatka peninsula, and Sakhalin island that have
>belonged to Japan before but stolen by Russians (cf.
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/
>homepages/flsoft). Yes, those lands have been populated by Ainu
>people (Kamchatka means in Ainu language "place where you dry
>salmon") but you have forgot to mention that Ainus are Japanese
>too: they have never formed an independent country and never
>wanted to from one, while Tibetans and Chechens, yes.
This is a gross distortion of history. The rebellions by Aterui and
Abe no Sadatou in the 9th-11th c. were both predominantly Ainu
uprisings, and the Fujiwara empire located in Hiraizumi was also
a powerful, nearly independent, predominantly Ainu haven before being
wiped out by Minamoto no Yoritomo at the end of 12th c. The fact
that the Ainus south of Hokkaido were mostly assimilated or chased
away do not change the fact that there was a definite process of
conquest around that time.
>The colonialism and the ethnic cleansing are the very invention of the
>western countries: they were unknown in the ancient
>Japan.
As far as the present Touhoku region was concerned, you're wrong.
Perhaps there were no major organized effort at ethnic cleansing, but
it is undoubtedly true that the Yamato race invaded and took over
regions in northern Japan previously ruled by the Ainus. Not to
mention the fact that Japanese history books before the 15th c. tend
to be rather incomplete (thanks to Ounin no Ran that burned most of
the book collections in Kyoto), and what books that are left are
generally biased in favor of the emperor's side. For all we know,
large numbers of Ainus could have been killed without ever being
recorded. Mass killings or enslavement of enemy communities was common
throughout the world long before Europeans learned how to sail the
high seas; it's naive to say all that came from Western influence.
--
Shimpei Yamashita <http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~shimpei/index.html>
WWW Curator, Stanford Symphony Orchestra <http://www.stanford.edu/group/sso/>
Christian Mueller
>>land was not always populated by Japan or by Russians, but rather by
>>NOTHING is sacred.
>>Banzai, tovarish Stalin!
>>Mike Grossman, E. Bridgewater, Mass.
>We are claiming not only southern part of Kurils but also north
>Kurils, Kamchatka peninsula, and Sakhalin island that have
>belonged to Japan before but stolen by Russians (cf.
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/
>homepages/flsoft). Yes, those lands have been populated by Ainu
>people (Kamchatka means in Ainu language "place where you dry
>salmon") but you have forgot to mention that Ainus are Japanese
>too: they have never formed an independent country and never
>wanted to from one, while Tibetans and Chechens, yes.
>In fact, after the studies of blood type and anatomy, it has been
>shown that the Japanese living in the north Honshyu (region of Tohoku)
>came from a mixing of the 2 races, Ainus and Yamatos (ordinary
>Japanese). On the contrary, the inhabitants of Hokkaido are closer to
>the ordinary Japanese. Why? Because Westerners (among others Russians)
>didn't want to recognised Ainus as Japanese and it became
>hard to keep the Ainu's territory. So the government sent a
>great number of voluntaries from all parts of Japan into the Ainu's
>territory in order to keep them.
>The colonialism and the ethnic cleansing are the very invention of the
>western countries: they were unknown in the ancient
>Japan.
May I correct your views a bit:
Fact is, that the ancient people who populated Japan ( as you say the
Ainu , which is indeed their name) were being extermiated slowly by
the Korean immigrants.
The Japanese of today has nothing to do with the Ainu, the Ainu have
nothing to do with the Japanese. It is a relationship like Indian and
American!
Simply therefor, the rest of your arguements are wrong. Just because
Indians lived in Canada and Mexico, the USA cannot claim this
territory. Therefor the Japanese can't claim Sachalin or Kamtschatka
as "japanese Territory".
Besides, what do you want with these territories?
I mean, Germany for example settled the Krimera and Litauia, and we
don't demand control of these territories. They would be useless and
it is not right for anyone to claim other's territory without good
reason. Perhaps you want Korea to claim Japan as korean territory
because koreans settled there? You see, your argumentation is false
and stupid! (No personal insult).
Japanese imperialism began with such arguments "has belonged to
japanese territory ever since", "japanese live there" ..... and so on.
These arguements were used to justify the japanese assault on Korea!
And if you have Sachalin, what to do with the Russian population
living there? Extermiate them, send them away, simply because japanese
(or rather Ainu) were there before them? I think it is a bit arrogant
for a nation which fills one of the darkest pages in world history
(WWII) to demand territory back they lost in this war. What after the
Kurlil Islands? Will Japan demand Manchuria, Korea, Malaysia, eastern
Russia as their territory?
I am a German, and we were no better than you during WW2, except that
we do not try to revert everything as you do. We do not demand german
territory in the Sudetenland or east of the german border. We
acknowledge what we have done during WW II and we payed the price for
it.
In Japan, it seems to be "anti-japanese" to admit that Japan had to
pay the price for agression too.
Marcelo Mizuki
> I am a German, and we were no better than you during WW2, except that
> we do not try to revert everything as you do. We do not demand german
> territory in the Sudetenland or east of the german border. We
First of all, when you say "as you do" you are wrong. Not
all Japanese think the same way. I for one, don't care about the
islands. We were stupid enough to lose them, so that's fair
enough for me. Besides, I can't imagine sacrificing good relations
with Russia over those islands. I think that is a bankrupt
policy and I disagree with it.
> ( or rather Ainu) were there before them? I think it is a bit arrogant
> for a nation which fills one of the darkest pages in world history
> (WWII) to demand territory back they lost in this war. What after the
> Kurlil Islands? Will Japan demand Manchuria, Korea, Malaysia, eastern
> Russia as their territory?
This is ridiculous anti-Japanese propaganda. What I
find arrogant is for a German to criticize Japan. When I hear
criticism from Koreans or Chinese, it's one thing, but
coming from a German person it really sounds odd. I don't
care how often you've apologized or how much money you've paid.
It still sounds out of place.
> acknowledge what we have done during WW II and we payed the price for
> it.
> In Japan, it seems to be "anti-japanese" to admit that Japan had to
> pay the price for agression too.
Japan paid the price. Millions died, cities were blown to
cinders, and the Japanese people were thoroughly humiliated. No
punishment in this world is greater than humiliation for a people as
proud as the Japanese. That's why I don't understand how so many
people still want revenge. We already paid a VERY heavy price.
Now I am the last person in this universe you could
possibly call anti-japanese. In fact, I am too right wing
for the tastes of most Japanese. Are you happy now?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed here may or may not be those of MIT or the AI Lab.
ichikawa
>(or rather Ainu) were there before them? I think it is a bit arrogant
>for a nation which fills one of the darkest pages in world history
>(WWII) to demand territory back they lost in this war. What after the
>Kurlil Islands? Will Japan demand Manchuria, Korea, Malaysia, eastern
>Russia as their territory?
>I am a German, and we were no better than you during WW2, except that
>we do not try to revert everything as you do. We do not demand german
>territory in the Sudetenland or east of the german border. We
>acknowledge what we have done during WW II and we payed the price for
>it.
>In Japan, it seems to be "anti-japanese" to admit that Japan had to
>pay the price for agression too.
Germany has a great reputation of "country of science". The most
modern scientific theories have born in that country and I understand
that the people really love it. But sometimes they go too far and
devote themselves to a pseudo-scientific activity such as Doctor
Goebbels'. I am afraid that you should be one of them because you deny
not only the historic proof but also scientific ones (biologic's and
linguistic's).
1) Koreans and Japanese belong to the 2 very distinct races.
Anatomic proof: it is admitted that Japanese has been
formed from a mixture of different races but globally their
body is squatty and short (similarity with Southern Chinese)
while Koreans are slender and tall (similarity with Northern Chinese
Manchus and Mongols)
Linguistic proof: the kinship of 2 languages can be measured
by the frequency of coincidences among basic vocabulary such
as numbers (one, two, three...) and body's parts (head, eyes,
nose...), because those words are stable for centuries and little
influencible by foreign languages. So we can easily understand a
kinship between German and English or between French and Italian. On
the contrary, we are unable to show any kinship between Japanese and
Korean languages.
The people who dear to affirm that Japan has been founded by Koreans
should be worried a little over those contradictions.
2) Japanese (or more correctly Yamato's people) have never organised
any ethnic cleansing against Ainu (Russians "yes").
In the old time, the center of Ainu people has been located in
Tohoku Region (Northern part of Honshu). After the biologic study of
the actual inhabitants of the region, it has been proved that they
came from an intermarriage between 2 races (Ainu and Yamato): they are
most hairy and the blood group "B" dominates like Ainu.
On the other hand, in California, where many indians have been
murdered in 19th century by freshly arrived American settlers because
they wanted the best lands, so the ethnic composition has completely
changed. Indians are now living in some reserved regions.
3) The situation of Manchuria or Korea is quite different from
Sakhalin's or Kuril's.
The former lands had been stolen by Japanese and it was quite natural
to back to the old owners. As far as Sakhalin and Kurils are
concerned, the situation is opposite, ie. Japan is a victim.
In fact, before Russian arrived in the region, those lands had been
already incorporated to Japan (cf.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/flsoft).
Japan had already established the maps and the list of villages and
tax collectible from them.
It is warned also not to link that problem with the result of WWII. In
fact, as soon as Russians reached the Pacific cost in the late 17th
century, they tried to steal the Japanese lands. So they pushed their
aggression from Kamchatka to North Kurils, then to South Kurils.
During that period, Russians organised an ethnic cleansing
against Kuril Ainu so they are now totally extinguished.
As soon as Russians stole the Maritime Territory from China in
1860, they wanted Sakhalin Island too. So they pushed their aggression
from North Sakhalin to South Sakhalin. Hoping that the Russian
aggression should stop if they agree some territorial concession,
Japanese signed the treaty of Shimoda in 1855 that gave
to Russia the control of Kamchatka, North Kurils and North Sakhalin.
But later, they would perceive to have done a wrong deal because
Russians would want more lands...
---
Please visit http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/flsoft
in order to learn more about the territorial dispute
between Russia and Japan.