Commercial vs Free BBS software
RhythmNp
actually a decent/interesting discussion...)
>They don't have much choice. Either reduce the price to compete with WC6 or
>die.
Wildcat version 6? What new features are they adding?
I wouldn't even say that WildCat and WorldGroup share the same market, so I'd
hardly say the two are competiting against each other.
The WorldGroupWare guys are de-emphasizing the BBS side of WG, they're trying
to market it as an internet platform... it'll fail in this market no matter
what, because there's better, cheaper, more modern alternatives out there.
Most WG sales these days go to new sysops who want to run MajorMud. In this
area, WC isn't a competitor at all.
>You didn't listen, that's all. You made snide comments about Tribbs when
>you didn't know a thing about the subject.
Why *would* I know anything about the subject? TriBBS hasn't been publicized
for years. Again, the majority of developers in the BBS scene wouldn't know a
thing about the future of TriBBS.
Don't expect people to know about TriBBS unless it's publicized.
>I went onto a Syc board a few days ago and found it cluttered. Much like
>the Box Stock Searchlight.
Shrug, the stock menus are as "cluttered" as the stock versions of other bbs
software. Sync's WildCat clone is as cluttered as the stock WC menus. Sync's
PCB clone is as cluttered as the stock PCB menus. Sync's default menus are as
cluttered as WWIV. It's the sysops job to customize menus to how they see fit,
with any bbs software.
>I can even have different menus on all three of
>those that rotate, different menus for each person, etc.. This is not new
>at all.
I didn't say it was "new". I just said that the interface wasn't even remotely
"foreign" as you claimed, since the user picks whatever interface they're
familiar with.
>I already did. Name one function that Syc can do that SL can't.
Synchronet can run on Linux.
Synchronet is free.
Synchronet's source code is freely available.
Synchronet is actively supported.
Synchronet's owner isn't a sysop-hating nutcase like SL's current owner (Pat
Clawson) is.
Synchronet has support for properietary 32-bit doors as well as Door32
Synchronet has an internal FTP server, linked to the BBS's file libraries.
Synchronet has outbound rlogin support, allowing sysops to run servers like
TradeWars Game Server linked through the bbs accounts.
Synchronet has inbound rlogin support, allowing it to be used by Worldgroup
sysops as a doorgame server.
Synchronet has frequent new releases.
Synchronet has an extremely active built-in message network (DoveNet).
>But I can
>name functions that SL can do that Syn can't I bet.
Depends whether or not you're including Spinnaker when you're referring to
Searchlight. Spinnaker may add tons of active web server things that
Synchronet currently lacks, but Spinnaker is still a major waste of money. Why
would anyone buy a web server that hasn't had a new release in over 2 and a
half years?
>Don't take this wager.
>It's a fools bet.
I already took the wager and beat you at the game...
>And THEY don't prefer Syn or any of the others you have named since the
>leading one and the most successful one is Wildcat 4 and 5 which share the
>same basic screens and can interchange with each other.
WildCat is not the leading BBS product by user count, WorldGroup is (unless you
count Tornado in Russia).
Synchronet's popularity among users is approaching the point where it will
rival, if not surpass, WildCat in the near future. It's pretty clear you don't
follow the Synchronet scene at all. Dozens of new Synchronet boards pop up
every month. Meanwhile, many sysops who run other software are chosing to
change to Synchronet. Two of the largest WWIV boards in existence switched to
Synchronet two months ago.
I'll note again that over 90% of my doorgame registrations lately have been
either to Synchronet sysops, or Worldgroup sysops with Synchronet doorgame
servers.
>The fact is,
>Syn is nice but it's weak in the features department when faced with the
>modern Server/BBS package.
It's not "weak" in the features department at all. The only thing it lacks is
the HTML/web side of things, which certainly isn't vital to a BBS's survival
anyway.
Besides, if I was going to run a professional-style web server, I certainly
wouldn't want to use overpriced, outdated products like Searchlight Spinnaker
or Worldgroup anyway.
WildCat 5 may be a better than SL and WG in terms of being up-to-date, but even
so, few large companies use WildCat to power their websites. Surely this is a
sign that better alternatives exist.
>Syn can be easy to navigate or use but it lacks the
>horsepower.
What "horsepower" does it lack? Be specific.
>You get what you pay for.
In the cases of most commercial BBS software, no. You *don't* get what you pay
for. You get ripped off.
Al Lawrence
>WildCat 5 may be a better than SL and WG in terms of being up-to-date, but even
>so, few large companies use WildCat to power their websites. Surely this is a
>sign that better alternatives exist.
With all due respect, I don't think you are in a position to make this 'large
company' claim.
You would be surprised how many there really are....
Perhaps an Email or phone call to Santronics will bring you some more reliable
information!
======================================================
Santronics VAReseller (Discounted WINServer, WILDCAT!)
a...@sunrisedoors.com (ICQ)14055399
http://www.sunrisedoors.com
ftp://ftp.sunrisedoors.com
======================================================
Subscribe to our mailing lists on our WEB SITE!
======================================================
RhythmNp
>company' claim.
>
>You would be surprised how many there really are....
Well, I'll admit, I definitely don't have a huge amount of solid factual
information on the issue. But I do know that I hear absolutely no mentions of
WildCat or WINServer in various IT magazines, PC magazines, etc.
A search on InfoWorld.com (InfoWorld is a leading IT magazine) on "WildCat"
returns only 1 match within the last 3 years. And that match was just a
reference to old WildCat BBS's.
A search on ZdNet.com results in few relevant matches to WildCat. One of the
matches that does come up, though, is a less-than-stellar review of WINServer
in PcMagazine from a while back.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash on WildCat. I just think
it's apparent that WildCat / WINServer isn't a top-selling web server solution
in the modern day.
>Perhaps an Email or phone call to Santronics will bring you some more
>reliable information!
Perhaps at a later date when I have more time to investigate.
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
news:20010606122500...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
>
> Synchronet can run on Linux.
Not a real advantage since most run Windows.
> Synchronet is free.
That's not a feature. That's a price. I don't care what it costs, within
reason, as long as it does what I want.
> Synchronet's source code is freely available.
Not a feature. For a programmer, maybe but not the normal Sysop, much less
the new Sysops.
> Synchronet is actively supported.
You got me on that one.
> Synchronet's owner isn't a sysop-hating nutcase like SL's current owner
(Pat
> Clawson) is.
Feel the Burn, Baby. New Flash, Clawson says would sell his BBS stuff in a
heartbeat if someone come up with real money.
> Synchronet has support for properietary 32-bit doors as well as Door32
So does SL
> Synchronet has an internal FTP server, linked to the BBS's file libraries.
Why use a BBS when a FTP server does it faster.
> Synchronet has outbound rlogin support, allowing sysops to run servers
like
> TradeWars Game Server linked through the bbs accounts.
They stopped just short of that one. It is a pain. Users can't rlogin out
but they can in.
> Synchronet has inbound rlogin support, allowing it to be used by
Worldgroup
> sysops as a doorgame server.
SL can also do this.
> Synchronet has frequent new releases.
When Sunc was getting none, SL got a ton of them. It's catchup time.
> Synchronet has an extremely active built-in message network (DoveNet).
SLNet is still going strong.
>
> >But I can
> >name functions that SL can do that Syn can't I bet.
>
> Depends whether or not you're including Spinnaker when you're referring to
> Searchlight. Spinnaker may add tons of active web server things that
> Synchronet currently lacks, but Spinnaker is still a major waste of money.
Why
> would anyone buy a web server that hasn't had a new release in over 2 and
a
> half years?
Spinaker IS a waste of money, I agree. But I can use Inet Servers to talk
almost directly to SL including SMTP/POP3 Servers. Like WC5, it can tell
the difference between a local message and an Internet message.
When you include SL you Have to include Spinaker. And at that point, you
included more power than Sync can handle. Yes, it's costly but it works.
As for not having any releases in over 2 years, it hasn't needed it.
>
> >Don't take this wager.
> >It's a fools bet.
>
> I already took the wager and beat you at the game...
No, you got duped. Thanks for mentioning the other half of Searchlight.
Even WG and WC have trouble with that combination in many areas. Unlike
WC5, Win95/98 and ME can run 16 bit doors. With WC5, it takes NT and that
still chaps my drawers on that one.
> WildCat is not the leading BBS product by user count, WorldGroup is
(unless you
> count Tornado in Russia).
Sorry, but the sales of the past 5 years for Mustang then Santronics have
outstripped WG by a very large margin. I don't need to even look up figures
on that one.
> Synchronet's popularity among users is approaching the point where it will
> rival, if not surpass, WildCat in the near future. It's pretty clear you
don't
> follow the Synchronet scene at all. Dozens of new Synchronet boards pop up
> every month. Meanwhile, many sysops who run other software are chosing to
> change to Synchronet. Two of the largest WWIV boards in existence
switched to
> Synchronet two months ago.
And I see that many have gone back to their old systems. AOL claims to have
40 million users. They count the total that signed up even for the free
accounts. What they don't report is the REAL number of people that actually
stay with AOL. We all know that that number is significantly lower than
what they report.
> I'll note again that over 90% of my doorgame registrations lately have
been
> either to Synchronet sysops, or Worldgroup sysops with Synchronet doorgame
> servers.
I don't know of a single BBS that uses WC5, Tribbs or SL that needs your
programs. If it works well on Sync then that is where you will make your
sales. That is your part of the VAST world out there.
> It's not "weak" in the features department at all. The only thing it
lacks is
> the HTML/web side of things, which certainly isn't vital to a BBS's
survival
> anyway.
Users like it. New users like it. What do either of us know anyway that we
should argue with the very people that keep the BBS worth having.
> Besides, if I was going to run a professional-style web server, I
certainly
> wouldn't want to use overpriced, outdated products like Searchlight
Spinnaker
> or Worldgroup anyway.
I wouldn't either.
>
> WildCat 5 may be a better than SL and WG in terms of being up-to-date, but
even
> so, few large companies use WildCat to power their websites. Surely this
is a
> sign that better alternatives exist.
I think you need to spend less time researching me and more time researching
your information. Opinions are nice but when presented as facts, they are
below the mark.
>
> >Syn can be easy to navigate or use but it lacks the
> >horsepower.
>
> What "horsepower" does it lack? Be specific.
Read the above part of the letter.
>
> >You get what you pay for.
>
> In the cases of most commercial BBS software, no. You *don't* get what
you pay
> for. You get ripped off.
Free is Free. What has kept Linux from kicking the daylights out of
Microsludge is that the development hasn't been handled like a commercial
program. RedHat lost a bundle in the first half of this year. Free doesn't
get the best programmers on a full time basis and it certainly doesn't pay
the bills. But it's free.
Daryl
RhythmNp
>
>Not a real advantage since most run Windows.
>
You call a Linux port "not a real advantage"?? Sure, most people use
Winblows... but even so, a Linux port is still a VERY good thing to have. The
more sysops that can run a program, the better.
>> Synchronet's source code is freely available.
>
>Not a feature. For a programmer, maybe but not the normal Sysop, much less
>the new Sysops.
It's a feature in the sense that other programmers can look at the source, make
additions, and send them to Rob (Sync's programmer)... faster development.
>> Synchronet's owner isn't a sysop-hating nutcase like SL's current owner
>(Pat
>> Clawson) is.
>
>Feel the Burn, Baby. New Flash, Clawson says would sell his BBS stuff in a
>heartbeat if someone come up with real money.
Feel the burn? Whatever... the point is Clawson still owns them at the moment,
and Clawson *hates* sysops. Heck, about once a year he posts a new tirade
about how all sysops are cheaters and thieves that steal from his pockets!
If someone buys Searchlight and/or ProBoard from him in the future, awesome.
But so far no one has, and the products are fading into oblivion due to his
lack of releases.
>> Synchronet has support for properietary 32-bit doors as well as Door32
>
>So does SL
No, SL does not support the Door32 standard.
>> Synchronet has an internal FTP server, linked to the BBS's file libraries.
>
>Why use a BBS when a FTP server does it faster.
Um, what? I'll repeat, Synchronet has an ftp server, built-in. It works just
like any other FTP server, and just as fast. But it also has the advantage of
being a mirror of the BBS's file libraries. Users can choose to download from
the BBS, or from FTP, its up to them. Or they can do searches through the BBS
and read extended descriptions, etc, and then grab the actual file through FTP
since its faster. This system also works well in conjunction with dial-up
lines... it provides an easy way for Dial-up users to access all of the files
you have on your ftp server. It's a pretty neat feature.
The FTP server can also be used for QWK message network transfers, which makes
networked message echos easy to carry, another bonus.
>> Synchronet has frequent new releases.
>
>When Sunc was getting none, SL got a ton of them. It's catchup time.
Fair enough, Sync was dead for a long while. But I think the important part is
the modern day, not the past. Today, Sync is getting new releases, SL isn't.
>> Synchronet has an extremely active built-in message network (DoveNet).
>
>SLNet is still going strong.
How much posting activity?
>But I can use Inet Servers to talk
>almost directly to SL including SMTP/POP3 Servers. Like WC5, it can tell
>the difference between a local message and an Internet message.
Synchronet has this feature built-in (again, for free)... a fully-featured
SMTP/POP3 mail server. Bet you didn't know that?
>When you include SL you Have to include Spinaker. And at that point, you
>included more power than Sync can handle. Yes, it's costly but it works.
>As for not having any releases in over 2 years, it hasn't needed it.
More power than Sync can handle? The only thing you've come up with that
SL/Spinnaker has, that Sync doesn't, is the web server.
A modern web server cannot go 2 years without updates and still be a perfectly
fine internet server solution. Too much changes in the Web world in a 2 year
period of time.
>> WildCat is not the leading BBS product by user count, WorldGroup is
>(unless you
>> count Tornado in Russia).
>
>Sorry, but the sales of the past 5 years for Mustang then Santronics have
>outstripped WG by a very large margin. I don't need to even look up figures
>on that one.
We weren't talking sales, we were talking *users*. Worldgroup has more total
users. Heck, there's a large number of Worldgroup BBS's that have 30 to 50+
people online right now each, per board, at this very instant.
Sure, there's more WildCat boards than WG boards. But when you add up the
total users, WG is ahead.
>> Synchronet's popularity among users is approaching the point where it will
>> rival, if not surpass, WildCat in the near future. It's pretty clear you
>don't
>> follow the Synchronet scene at all. Dozens of new Synchronet boards pop up
>> every month. Meanwhile, many sysops who run other software are chosing to
>> change to Synchronet. Two of the largest WWIV boards in existence
>switched to
>> Synchronet two months ago.
>
>And I see that many have gone back to their old systems.
A few do, but I wouldn't say "many".
Ask Dave from Hard Drive Cafe... he used to run the largest WWIV board on the
internet. He switched to Synchronet in March and is still perfectly happy with
it.
>I don't know of a single BBS that uses WC5, Tribbs or SL that needs your
>programs.
"Needing" my program? Well, it's a Doorgame, no boards "need" it.
Honestly, I'm hard pressed to think of a single BBS that runs TriBBS or
SearchLight, period. How many boards out there still actually run TriBBS or SL?
As for WC, yeah, I've only sold a few copies to WC sysops. I would sell a lot
more if I bought the WC Development Kit to make a WC-proprietary 32-bit
version, like WC T-LORD. But due to the massive time commitment in learning
WC's dev kit, and the high cost of WC + the dev kit, this just wouldn't be an
effective use of my time or money.
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
news:20010606122500...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> actually a decent/interesting discussion...)
> Wildcat version 6? What new features are they adding?
http://www.santronics.com would be a good start for you. Like Tribbs, do
the homework.
> I wouldn't even say that WildCat and WorldGroup share the same market, so
I'd
> hardly say the two are competiting against each other.
Actually, Win5 was pointed directly at WG from the very beginning. Like I
said earlier, WG had a huge headstart and it's been an uphill battle for
others. With Win6, they will surpass WG in features. In fact, many HTTPd
servers may finally get a run for their money. Underneath all that is still
a BBS doing much of the work in Message Bases, etc..
>
> The WorldGroupWare guys are de-emphasizing the BBS side of WG, they're
trying
> to market it as an internet platform... it'll fail in this market no
matter
> what, because there's better, cheaper, more modern alternatives out there.
So has WC from 5 on up. You can't run 16 bit doors on a Baby Win system and
run WC5. You have to go to NT or 2000. This is the market that will spend
the money for the products, upgrades, utilities, games, etc.. Free isn't in
most of our vocabulary since we want it a cut above.
> Most WG sales these days go to new sysops who want to run MajorMud. In
this
> area, WC isn't a competitor at all.
Actually, there are freestanding Mud Servers. Why do I need WG in the first
place to run one. If I had WG, I would need it for a miriad of things that
the Mud Server can't do.
> >You didn't listen, that's all. You made snide comments about Tribbs when
> >you didn't know a thing about the subject.
>
> Why *would* I know anything about the subject? TriBBS hasn't been
publicized
> for years. Again, the majority of developers in the BBS scene wouldn't
know a
> thing about the future of TriBBS.
You won't get out of this one easy. In alt.bbs.tribbs, they talk about it.
They also avoid this area like the plague.
> Don't expect people to know about TriBBS unless it's publicized.
You don't want to go there.
> Shrug, the stock menus are as "cluttered" as the stock versions of other
bbs
> software. Sync's WildCat clone is as cluttered as the stock WC menus.
Sync's
> PCB clone is as cluttered as the stock PCB menus. Sync's default menus
are as
> cluttered as WWIV. It's the sysops job to customize menus to how they see
fit,
> with any bbs software.
Let me display a Tribbs menu in here. Sorry, can't do colors and all that
but it will give you an idea.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
<B>..Bulletin Menu <Y>..Your Personal Information
<M>.Message Menu <I>...System Information
<F>..File Menu <U>..List Users
<C>.Comments to Sysops <X>..Expert Mode
<A>..Toggle Ansi Graphics <P>..Page Sysop
<N>..Newsletter <G>..Goodbye
You have been on 0 minutes with 53 remaining
Enter your selection - [B M F C A N Y I U X P G ?]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the box stock right after the setup. You will find the same basic
setup in Wins of all ages. You can even take the WC 4.2 and below and
install the menus because they used the same color codes. WC, Tribbs and SL
have been stealing each other blind for years for screens. But to use them
on SL, you have to change the Interface inside of SL. SL, like WG. WWIV,
Sync and many others just give way too much information to the user and all
the user wants to do it go to the message base, doormenu or files.
> I didn't say it was "new". I just said that the interface wasn't even
remotely
> "foreign" as you claimed, since the user picks whatever interface they're
> familiar with.
The Syncs that I went into were so cluttered that I didn't even know one
could do that until the Sysop told me about it. By then, I didn't care.
Either it is User Friendly or you won't get too many second callers.
There is my opinion but it comes from decades of listing to users and using
Searchlight since 1993 where I learned that too much information and clutter
costs you users.
Daryl
Al Lawrence
>>With all due respect, I don't think you are in a position to make this 'large
>>company' claim.
>>
>>You would be surprised how many there really are....
>
>Well, I'll admit, I definitely don't have a huge amount of solid factual
>information on the issue. But I do know that I hear absolutely no mentions of
>WildCat or WINServer in various IT magazines, PC magazines, etc.
Perhaps that can be becasue Santronics has chosen to not use a publicist or an
Ad agency. They are the ones that ensure that a company/product make it into
the IT publications!
>A search on InfoWorld.com (InfoWorld is a leading IT magazine) on "WildCat"
>returns only 1 match within the last 3 years. And that match was just a
>reference to old WildCat BBS's.
Same comment as above!
>A search on ZdNet.com results in few relevant matches to WildCat. One of the
>matches that does come up, though, is a less-than-stellar review of WINServer
>in PcMagazine from a while back.
Pre-Santronics or post-Mustang?
>Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash on WildCat. I just think
>it's apparent that WildCat / WINServer isn't a top-selling web server solution
>in the modern day.
I never get in the middle of a *bashing* contest... and since I did not take
your comments as *bashing* I jumped in <g>
You are entitled to your opinion, but I for one would like to see you get some
comment from Santronics on this. I just believe in balance in reporting <grin>
>>Perhaps an Email or phone call to Santronics will bring you some more
>>reliable information!
>
>Perhaps at a later date when I have more time to investigate.
That would be approriate and I look forward to what you turn up!
Al
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
> >> Synchronet has support for properietary 32-bit doors as well as Door32
> >
> >So does SL
>
> No, SL does not support the Door32 standard.
I didn't read the rest of this. I get off the boat here. I can see you
know SL about as well as you know WC and Tribbs.
<ending>
Daryl
RhythmNp
>> >
>> >So does SL
>>
>> No, SL does not support the Door32 standard.
>
>I didn't read the rest of this. I get off the boat here. I can see you
>know SL about as well as you know WC and Tribbs.
Excuse me? What are you talking about? SL *does* *NOT* *support* the door32
standard. SL hasn't been updated in so long that the most recent SL release
came out prior to Door32 even being standardized.
Maybe you need to do some reading on door32. http://www.mysticbbs.com/door32/
will explain whatever is confusing you. Notice again that SL doesn't support
it.
RhythmNp
Do you have a more specific link? I've briefly browsed around the Santronics
site and didn't see any mention of WC 6.
>With Win6, they will surpass WG in features.
That's good, heck, it finally took them long enough :P
>> Most WG sales these days go to new sysops who want to run MajorMud. In
>this
>> area, WC isn't a competitor at all.
>
>Actually, there are freestanding Mud Servers. Why do I need WG in the first
>place to run one. If I had WG, I would need it for a miriad of things that
>the Mud Server can't do.
Yes, of course there's thousands of other possible MUD servers you can use.
But none of them are MajorMud. MajorMud is the most successful text MUD in
existence (considering total number of players -- granted, they're spread out
over a number of servers). It runs only on MajorBBS/Worldgroup.
MajorMud is one of the few games that can actually allow a sysop to pull in
cash based on the game alone. Users are willing to pay from $5/mo to sometimes
even $15+/mo just to play it. (as for why? it's just incredibly addictive,
but who knows... IMHO it's poorly designed, because it's made for 24/7 player
scripting)
But anyway, you seem to have missed my point. What I was saying is, most WG
sales go to sysops who want to run MajorMud. In this market, WildCat isn't
competition for WG, since WildCat can't run MajorMud.
>You won't get out of this one easy. In alt.bbs.tribbs, they talk about it.
>They also avoid this area like the plague.
If they avoid alt.bbs like the plague, and apparently avoid other methods of
publicity like FidoNet like the plague also, how do they expect the majority of
sysops to ever hear about their product?
>WWIV,
>Sync and many others just give way too much information to the user and all
>the user wants to do it go to the message base, doormenu or files.
Your opinion only. You seem to forget that WWIV has been used and enjoyed by
thousands of sysops and hundreds of thousands of users. Its interface also
spawned a miriad of clones as well.
Some prefer WC/SL/Tribbs style. Others prefer WWIV/TG/RG/Sync style. As
several people in this NG have already pointed out to you, you're in no
position to make blanket statements about what all users want to do.
>The Syncs that I went into were so cluttered that I didn't even know one
>could do that until the Sysop told me about it. By then, I didn't care.
Then maybe you should have picked a menu set you were more familiar with. Sync
lets YOU pick. Not all of the choices are "cluttered".
>Either it is User Friendly or you won't get too many second callers.
If its not user-friendly, that's the fault of the particular sysop, NOT the bbs
software.
Gossamer Axe
> "RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
> news:20010606122500...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> >
> > Synchronet can run on Linux.
>
> Not a real advantage since most run Windows.
I run Linux, clockworkorangebbs.org runs Linux, there's lots of us
that run Linux. i70west.com runs Unix on their backbone, the fucking
government runs Unix on their backbone. Most of your web servers run
Linux/Unix/Solaris and Apache, logon to an anonymous ftp it's running
*Nix/Solaris w/some unix open source ftp program. ALL of your isps
have to run Unix, winblowz can't handle the stress. Hell, even
hotmail now runs Solaris cause windows N(o)t couldn't handle the
traffic.
Pleeeeeeeeeeeease crawl back under your windoze rock and don't comment
on operating system you know nothing about. I'm sure you knowledge of
*Nix and open source software (including GPL) is nil.
Robert Todd
--( From: RhythmNp To: All
--( Subj: Re: Commercial vs Free BBS software
--( Date: 06-06-01
R> Well, I'll admit, I definitely don't have a huge amount of solid factual
R> information on the issue. But I do know that I hear absolutely no mentions
R> of
R> WildCat or WINServer in various IT magazines, PC magazines, etc.
Um, both were mentioned a while back.
R> A search on InfoWorld.com (InfoWorld is a leading IT magazine) on "WildCat"
R> returns only 1 match within the last 3 years. And that match was just a
R> reference to old WildCat BBS's.
That's because you did a search for WILDCAT. Doing a search for WINSERVER
should yield much better results.
FamilyNet <> Internet Gated Mail
http://www.fmlynet.org
RhythmNp
>R> information on the issue. But I do know that I hear absolutely no
>mentions
>R> of
>R> WildCat or WINServer in various IT magazines, PC magazines, etc.
>
>Um, both were mentioned a while back.
Then show me where. I spent 20 mins searching. Found nothing but a bad review
in a PC Magazine. (Granted, the review was of a much older version of
WINServer, like 2 years ago)
>R> A search on InfoWorld.com (InfoWorld is a leading IT magazine) on
>"WildCat"
>R> returns only 1 match within the last 3 years. And that match was just a
>R> reference to old WildCat BBS's.
>
>That's because you did a search for WILDCAT. Doing a search for WINSERVER
>should yield much better results.
No, I also did a search for WINSERVER and found *NO* matches at all. The full
product name is WildCat Interactive Net Server which is what would be displayed
in reviews or product mentionings anyway, so "WildCat" catches all those
matches.
Gary T. DuVall
> >The fact is,
> >Syn is nice but it's weak in the features department when faced with the
> >modern Server/BBS package.
>
> It's not "weak" in the features department at all. The only thing it lacks is
> the HTML/web side of things, which certainly isn't vital to a BBS's survival
> anyway.
> Besides, if I was going to run a professional-style web server, I certainly
> wouldn't want to use overpriced, outdated products like Searchlight Spinnaker
> or Worldgroup anyway.
Apache for Win32 does the job just fine, and runs as a service on my
Win98, co-habitating just fine with my Synchronet 3.00f (last night's
new release) server. I don't see the need to risk a security intrusion
on a webserver platform I don't know. Simply stated, if you really
want to have a webserver on the same box, and your BBS package doesn't
have one, just grab Apache.
The FTP and Mail servers are also great, and work very well. Very easy
to configure and they work right out of the box.
Plus, it looks as if Javascript will be taking the place, or at least
co-habitating with BAJA as the official scripting language for
Synchronet, enabling the sysops to explore an entire new world of
web-enabled BBSing and utilities. As a graphic designer / web
developer, this is potentially the sweetest new feature I'm looking
forward to. Rob Swindell is testing out support for it on his own BBS,
at vert.synchro.net. I've seen some of the progress so far, and I'm
very pleased.
After discovering Synchronet, I highly doubt I'd spend my money on any
other BBS platform. It's got more features than I ever expected out of
a free, open-source BBS platform, and I always get compliments on how
fast it runs (even with a ton of door games) on my tiny Celeron 300.
And that's with Apache 1.3.20 and a ton of other applications running
at the same time.
:: Gary DuVall
:: The Gothic Starlight Cafe BBS
:: telnet://sanctuary.splurb.com
RhythmNp
server like Apache, than use something old, clunky, and expensive like
Worldgroup or Searchlight/Spinnaker.
I wish more people (...like Daryl Hunt...) would realize that just because
Synchronet is free, don't mean it's bad/inferior at all. Rob Swindell is one
of the rare freeware developers who actually puts in a ton of time into his
programs :) I'm definitely extremely happy with Synchronet, its superior to
most of the commercial BBS packages out there.
Best regards,
Evan Elias
DoorMUD author
http://dmud.thebbs.org
Bil Simser
news:49a69dde.01060...@posting.google.com...
>
> After discovering Synchronet, I highly doubt I'd spend my money on any
> other BBS platform. It's got more features than I ever expected out of
> a free, open-source BBS platform, and I always get compliments on how
> fast it runs (even with a ton of door games) on my tiny Celeron 300.
I totally agree. Rob did a great job on the product and I have yet to
see any commercial product (WG, etc.) that can do the same for the cost.
The fact that it's free doesn't mean it sucks and I'm sure sync will
continue to grow. However, even so, an open source product like this
just means that if Rob walked away and stopped development, there are a
few out there that would just pick up and continue enhancing it. I can't
see what features you can't get from a commercial product that measure
up to the freeness of synchronet. As well, it is pretty slick that under
Win98 I can run it and various other programs PLUS keep my compiler up
and running for rebuilding door games (just in the process of getting a
new one out now <shameless plug>) so nuff said on that.
liB
Gary T. DuVall
- Gary T. DuVall
- Sysop, The Gothic Starlight Cafe
- http://sanctuary.splurb.com
- telnet://sanctuary.splurb.com
.
RhythmNp <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
news:20010608173229...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
RhythmNp
The game finally seems to be catching on, on a decent number of boards, so I'm
thrilled :)
BTW, regarding registration, its fine if you want to wait until the game has a
decent level of activity on the bbs (if it doesn't yet, that is). Most sysops
wait until there's 2 or 3 people maxed at level 7 (the max in unreg'd version),
which is fine by me.
Best regards,
Evan Elias
http://dmud.thebbs.org
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
news:20010608173229...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
>
> Synchronet is free, don't mean it's bad/inferior at all
What is inferior is the dinging other software packages. Unlike Evan
Whathisface, I state an opinion an opinion about the menus that I see on
almost all the Sync sites. I didn't say it was a bad BBS. What I said is
that people that have a BBS package with a Mess for a Menu are inferior. It
just so happens that many of those Inferiors run Sync. It takes more than
just rhrowing a BBS up, putting on a few games with a Telnet connection to
be a Sysop.
Due to your comments, I place you as inferior as well. Dinging other
packages as bad as you have without knowing a thing about them is inferior
at best. At least I researched Sync. Do your research and comment using
educated statements or just plain shut up.
Daryl
RhythmNp
>Whathisface, I state an opinion an opinion about the menus that I see on
>almost all the Sync sites. I didn't say it was a bad BBS. What I said is
>that people that have a BBS package with a Mess for a Menu are inferior. It
>just so happens that many of those Inferiors run Sync. It takes more than
>just rhrowing a BBS up, putting on a few games with a Telnet connection to
>be a Sysop.
>
>Due to your comments, I place you as inferior as well. Dinging other
>packages as bad as you have without knowing a thing about them is inferior
>at best. At least I researched Sync. Do your research and comment using
>educated statements or just plain shut up.
What a total load of bull. First off, you did ding Sync, you kept insisting
all the commercial packages were better. And you DIDN'T ever research Sync.
You kept mentioning all these features that SearchLight supposedly had that
Sync didn't... and guess what, Sync had 90% of them! You didn't research Sync
at all, that much was obvious, yet you kept bashing it and other freeware BBS
packages. Nice try, Daryl.
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
I thought it was guieted down and you could actually discuss things without
being the infererior person you are. So we start up again. I stated that
I didn't care for one BBS. This a a personal preferance only. There are a
bunch I don't care for but don't rant and rave about how bad they are and
how superior what I use is. In fact, I don't even mention them. The fact
of the matter is, I don't like you or anything you stand for (which is
usually fabricated). I don't like the Ego Trip you use to try and cram ANY
BBS down anyone's throat. I don't care for your wanting to be right even
when you don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about. I don't
care for the way you refuse to do the research but Flame systems that you
have never even been to their homepage, ie. Tribbs, and Santronics. Now,
I will get over it, but I don't suppose you will.
Daryl
RhythmNp
>being the infererior person you are.
If you're going to try to make fun of someone's intelligence, at least try and
spell "inferior" correctly.
>So we start up again. I stated that
>I didn't care for one BBS. This a a personal preferance only. There are a
>bunch I don't care for but don't rant and rave about how bad they are and
>how superior what I use is.
You stated that SearchLight had tons of features that Synchronet lacked, when
in fact this was untrue and you didn't have the foggiest idea of what features
Synchronet had.
Don't yell at me for not doing my research. I DID do my research. I knew
exactly what features SL/Spinnaker had. You didn't know jack about Sync.
> In fact, I don't even mention them. The fact
>of the matter is, I don't like you or anything you stand for (which is
>usually fabricated).
What exactly do I stand for that's "fabricated"?
>I don't like the Ego Trip you use to try and cram ANY
>BBS down anyone's throat.
How/when/what BBS have I crammed down someone's throat?
>I don't care for your wanting to be right even
>when you don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about.
Unlike you I provide EVIDENCE and LINKS for what I'm talking about.
>I don't
>care for the way you refuse to do the research but Flame systems that you
>have never even been to their homepage, ie. Tribbs, and Santronics.
I've been to Santronics' site many, many times. I still have yet to see a link
there w/ info on WC 6. It may be there, but it's not an overly apparent link
if so. You still haven't provided a link to any WC 6 info after I asked twice.
As for TriBBS, as I've already stated, don't just expect everyone to magically
know TriBBS is back in development. The new authors haven't mentioned it here
or on Fidonet. It's not common knowledge.
>Now, I will get over it, but I don't suppose you will.
How about I tell you the things *I* don't care for.
I don't care for people who falsely accuse me of being a software pirate in a
public forum.
I don't care for people who falsely accuse me of using fake aliases/email
address to post here.
I don't care for people who call me a "fake" and a "liar" without any
justification whatsoever.
I don't care for people who make vague threats at getting my AOL account
cancelled without any justification.
I don't care for people who accuse me of ripping off other code in my doorgame
(which, BTW, is NOT programmed in Pascal, and is NOT ripped off of any other
code).
I don't care for people like YOU.
Disgusted,
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
>
> If you're going to try to make fun of someone's intelligence, at least try
and
> spell "inferior" correctly.
You should know how to spell it. You practice it enough. Shall we keep up
this nonsense.
> You stated that SearchLight had tons of features that Synchronet lacked,
when
> in fact this was untrue and you didn't have the foggiest idea of what
features
> Synchronet had.
It does. Since you nothing about Searchlight worth mentioning, why are you
even discussing this.
>
> Don't yell at me for not doing my research. I DID do my research. I knew
> exactly what features SL/Spinnaker had. You didn't know jack about Sync.
I know you recommend it. While the BBS isn't bad, you are. Anything you
suggest goes on my, don't use list.
> What exactly do I stand for that's "fabricated"?
Running down other BBS programs since they are not FREE. Give me a break,
you haven't even been to Santronics or Tribbs.com at all. To even comment
that you know what is going on is pure fabrication.
> How/when/what BBS have I crammed down someone's throat?
Give me a break. You hammer Searchlight, Tribbs, PCB, Wildcat, etc. and
then rave about the virtues of what You like and you don't even HAVE a BBS
online and never have. I am so sick of your practice, I suggest that no one
uses anything you suggest or write no matter how good it is. The Company
stinks.
>
> >I don't care for your wanting to be right even
> >when you don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about.
>
> Unlike you I provide EVIDENCE and LINKS for what I'm talking about.
A.L. gave you some suggestions and I gave you a few which you decided wasn't
worth your time. You still expound that you know so much yet you won't go
there. I won't give them to you again since it's a waste of the Kings
English.
> I've been to Santronics' site many, many times. I still have yet to see a
link
> there w/ info on WC 6. It may be there, but it's not an overly apparent
link
> if so. You still haven't provided a link to any WC 6 info after I asked
twice.
Pathetic since all the WC folks know about it and it's in plain sight. And
you were given the link and were told to call or write Santronics asking
about it. You are too lazy to do even that.
> As for TriBBS, as I've already stated, don't just expect everyone to
magically
> know TriBBS is back in development. The new authors haven't mentioned it
here
> or on Fidonet. It's not common knowledge.
In otherwords, you don't know a thing about it yet you flamed it. Typical.
The reason they don't come in here is Jackasses like you. Tribbs has it's
own Message base, Searchlight has it's own, WC has a ton of message bases.
If alt.bbs was worth a tinkers, they could do it in these areas. Nice job
killing it off where you are frozen out of the loop. Alt.bbs.sysop then
Alt.bbs.allsysop then...... What's next. Your call.
>
> I don't care for people who falsely accuse me of being a software pirate
in a
> public forum.
You run with Dogs, you get fleas.
> I don't care for people who falsely accuse me of using fake aliases/email
> address to post here.
You run with Dogs, you get fleas
> I don't care for people who call me a "fake" and a "liar" without any
> justification whatsoever.
Truth hurts, don't it. Don't comment like you are an Expert on subjects you
know nothing about.
> I don't care for people who make vague threats at getting my AOL account
> cancelled without any justification.
Not vague. Stay in here and you are remotely safe. Go outside of here
anywhere near ANY system I am putting up and......
> I don't care for people who accuse me of ripping off other code in my
doorgame
> (which, BTW, is NOT programmed in Pascal, and is NOT ripped off of any
other
> code).
And care to tell me that you wrote the Door interface? But we will never
know, will we since it looks and feels like countless other Ansi BBS
Doorgames. But it's not the Doorgame that's the problem. I see nothing
wrong with it at all. It's the author that is one sick puppy. BTW, your
statement that there is no MUDDS written for WC there are a few generic ones
that WC runs just fine, including yours.
MUD100 for WC4 which also runs on WC5 and 6
MUD50 for WC5 and 6
WILDMUD for WC5 and 6
Tell us again just how you spend the bulk of your day looking at Santronics.
I went in and got that information with just a search. And I logged onto
the Win6 Beta. Oh, I fogot, you don't HAVE access to that area since you
preach FREEware BBS programs and you are too lazy to actually ask a WC Sysop
for information on it. You would rather make up stories to make you feel
more important. You are an Expert for sure on this subject. An Expert is a
person that used to Pert but doesn't anymore.
>
> I don't care for people like YOU.
Good, then stay out of my conversations and shutup about subjects you know
nothing about or are too lazy to research.
>
> Disgusted,
More like, Disgusting.
> Evan Elias
> DoorMUD author
One door does not make a Door Author of the level you give the appearance.
I have two. But I am NOT a World Famous Door Author. Learn a little
humility .
Daryl Hunt
http://www.i70west.com
(only clients can see the BBS)
RhythmNp
when
>> in fact this was untrue and you didn't have the foggiest idea of what
>> features Synchronet had.
>
>It does. Since you nothing about Searchlight worth mentioning, why are you
>even discussing this.
Heck, at least I know that Searchlight doesn't support Door32. And I also know
that from browsing SL's feature list on the Telegrafix web site, that Sync has
nearly every feature that SL/Spinnaker has, except the old Spinnaker web
server. You still have YET to prove otherwise.
>> Don't yell at me for not doing my research. I DID do my research. I knew
>> exactly what features SL/Spinnaker had. You didn't know jack about Sync.
>
>I know you recommend it. While the BBS isn't bad, you are. Anything you
>suggest goes on my, don't use list.
If I suggest it, you automatically don't use it? What a stubborn child you
are.
I suggest and recommend reading alt.bbs and breathing oxygen on a regular
basis. Now please be so kind as to put both of those on your "don't use" list.
>> What exactly do I stand for that's "fabricated"?
>
>Running down other BBS programs since they are not FREE. Give me a break,
>you haven't even been to Santronics or Tribbs.com at all. To even comment
>that you know what is going on is pure fabrication.
You still have yet to define what exactly is "fabricated" that you're talking
about.
As I've said, I've been to santronics.com many times.
I've never been to tribbs.com, and never claimed to.
>> How/when/what BBS have I crammed down someone's throat?
>
>Give me a break. You hammer Searchlight, Tribbs, PCB, Wildcat, etc. and
>then rave about the virtues of what You like
Raving about the virtues of what I like is NOT cramming something down
someone's throat. And I never hammered PCB, either. Secondly, the only
"hammering" of TriBBS that I did was my incorrect statement that it hadn't been
updated in a long time. That isn't "hammering" of any sort.
> and you don't even HAVE a BBS online and never have.
For the 8 billionth time... I have a private testing board called
Metapsychosis, running Synchronet v3.00c, which I'm opening to the public in
September. Prior to that, I've been a co-sysop on two local dial-up WWIV
boards, and a File-Op on a large (30+ line) WorldGroup board.
>I am so sick of your practice, I suggest that no one
>uses anything you suggest or write no matter how good it is. The Company
>stinks.
Fine, continue to be a stubborn child if that's your wish.
>A.L. gave you some suggestions and I gave you a few which you decided wasn't
>worth your time. You still expound that you know so much yet you won't go
>there. I won't give them to you again since it's a waste of the Kings
>English.
I will follow Al's suggestion about talking to Santronics about WC sales
sometime in the future, which is what I said right off the bat -- I'll
investigate it sometime in the future.
>Pathetic since all the WC folks know about it and it's in plain sight.
I'd expect WC sysops to follow their own BBS software much more closely than I
do.
But if a WC 6 feature list is in plain sight as you claim, where's the link,
hmm?
>And you were given the link
You never gave me a link to a WC 6 feature list.
>were told to call or write Santronics asking
>about it. You are too lazy to do even that.
Oh? Why do I need to call or write Santronics about it if it's in "plain view"
on their website as you've said repeatedly? . . . yet you STILL haven't said
where or given a link about the feature list of Wc6.
>> As for TriBBS, as I've already stated, don't just expect everyone to
magically
>> know TriBBS is back in development. The new authors haven't mentioned it
here
>> or on Fidonet. It's not common knowledge.
>In otherwords, you don't know a thing about it yet you flamed it. Typical.
I did NOT "flame" it. I just said (incorrectly) that it hadn't had a release
in a long time. I appologize for my mis-statement. But given the total lack
of publicity the TriBBS guys use, it's no surprise that many people -- myself
included -- did not know TriBBS was being supported.
>The reason they don't come in here is Jackasses like you. Tribbs has it's
>own Message base, Searchlight has it's own, WC has a ton of message bases.
>If alt.bbs was worth a tinkers, they could do it in these areas. Nice job
>killing it off where you are frozen out of the loop. Alt.bbs.sysop then
>Alt.bbs.allsysop then...... What's next. Your call.
Daryl, when will you realize that the majority of users of this newsgroup
dislike you? If anyone is damaging the newsgroup in some way (certainly not
"killing it off" though), it's you...
>> I don't care for people who falsely accuse me of being a software pirate
>>in a public forum.
>
>You run with Dogs, you get fleas.
What the hell kind of justification is that? You're somehow justified in
***publicly slandering me*** because I "run with dogs", whatever the hell that
vague statement is supposed to mean? And yet YOU have the nerve to call ME a
jackass?
>> I don't care for people who falsely accuse me of using fake aliases/email
>> address to post here.
>
>You run with Dogs, you get fleas
In other words, you're an idiot.
>> I don't care for people who call me a "fake" and a "liar" without any
>> justification whatsoever.
>
>Truth hurts, don't it. Don't comment like you are an Expert on subjects you
>know nothing about.
If you followed your own advice, you wouldn't be able to comment on anything,
ever.
You still have yet to explain WHY exactly I'm a "fake" or a "liar".
>> I don't care for people who make vague threats at getting my AOL account
>> cancelled without any justification.
>
>Not vague. Stay in here and you are remotely safe. Go outside of here
>anywhere near ANY system I am putting up and......
"Remotely safe"? You regularly make threats at removing the internet accounts
of multiple members of this newsgroup, and yet you still think *I'm* the one
somehow "killing off" newsgroups?
>> I don't care for people who accuse me of ripping off other code in my
doorgame
>> (which, BTW, is NOT programmed in Pascal, and is NOT ripped off of any
>>other code).
>
>And care to tell me that you wrote the Door interface? But we will never
>know,
"Never know"? I've posted this information multiple times.
DoorMUD is 15,000 lines of object-oriented C++ code. The 16 bit / DOS version
was compiled with the OpenDoors library, an open-source C++ doorkit. The
32-bit Windows version was compiled with the Synchronet XSDK, a 32-bit C
library.
>will we since it looks and feels like countless other Ansi BBS
>Doorgames.
"Countless other Ansi BBS Doorgames" that have the look and feel of DoorMUD?
How about you name ONE! I have yet to see another BBS doorgame MUD that can
beat DoorMUD's command interface, or even its stability. The few other
doorgame MUD's out there like Axe and Fang are mostly horribly unstable.
The only BBS games that obviously beat out DoorMUD in many ways are the
Worldgroup MUDs, but these aren't doorgames.
>But it's not the Doorgame that's the problem. I see nothing
>wrong with it at all. It's the author that is one sick puppy.
You falsely accuse me of being a software pirate in a public forum and yet
*I'm* the "sick puppy"?
>BTW, your
>statement that there is no MUDDS written for WC there are a few generic ones
>that WC runs just fine, including yours.
What are you talking about? I have NEVER stated that there are no MUDs written
for WC.
I only stated that MajorMUD does not run on WC. That statement was 100% true.
>Tell us again just how you spend the bulk of your day looking at Santronics.
>I went in and got that information with just a search.
Heck, I Don't even see a search option on the front page of santronics.com.
>And I logged onto
>the Win6 Beta. Oh, I fogot, you don't HAVE access to that area since you
>preach FREEware BBS programs and you are too lazy to actually ask a WC Sysop
>for information on it.
Well, YOU claim to be a WC sysop, right? I've asked YOU about WC 6's feature
list and YOU never answered me.
>You would rather make up stories to make you feel
>more important. You are an Expert for sure on this subject.
What "stories" have I made up?
BTW, again, I have NEVER claimed to be an expert on WildCat.
>An Expert is a person that used to Pert but doesn't anymore.
That sounds like something a 4-year-old would say. BTW, Pert isn't even a
verb.
>One door does not make a Door Author of the level you give the appearance.
The number of doorgames an Author makes isn't really relevant in whether or not
they're a doorgame author. I could easily write other games if I wanted to,
but I don't because I'm DEDICATED to DoorMUD. You have to understand that
DoorMUD is a *HUGE* project that is a lot more complex in design than something
like a LORD-clone.
I would *love* to write other doors. I eventually plan on writing a planetary
strategy game and also another MUD (this time, future-based). However at the
moment I'm dedicated to spending my spare coding time on DoorMUD.
Most of the sysops & players who enjoy DoorMUD appreciate the fact that I'm
dedicated to the project. You can read some of their comments on my message
board, http://pub51.ezboard.com/fdoormudwebmessageboardfrm1
>I have two. But I am NOT a World Famous Door Author.
Yeah, because I've never actually seen anyone running or using your doors.
Heck, I don't even know what your doors are. I've asked you repeatedly to
provide links or info or ANY proof that you've actually written anything, and
you never have.
>Learn a little humility.
I never have professed to be "world famous", nor do I think I'm better than any
other software author in this scene.
Yes, I am proud of DoorMUD. I'm proud and happy that I made something that a
decent number of BBS users seem to enjoy. I'm proud that I was able to benefit
the BBS scene and continue to do so. But a little bit of pride isn't a bad
thing. But I wouldn't say that I'm *excessively* proud of it to the point
where I need to "learn a little humility".
Evan Elias
http://dmud.thebbs.org
Darryl Perry
> > and you don't even HAVE a BBS online and never have.
>
> For the 8 billionth time... I have a private testing board called
> Metapsychosis, running Synchronet v3.00c, which I'm opening to the public in
> September. Prior to that, I've been a co-sysop on two local dial-up WWIV
> boards, and a File-Op on a large (30+ line) WorldGroup board.
Evan,
This is getting old and boring. It doen't matter how many times you tell him,
he won't acknowledge it. It's like a broken roulette wheel. If the ball
consistantly falls on 13 10,000 times in a row, do you really think that it
might fall on something else if you give it just one more spin?
But, if you are using his postings to give yourself free advertising, then I
guess that that's quite all right. :)
We've all established that we don't like him, that he is full of hot air, that
he is ________ <fill in the blank>. One thing that we should all realize from
his diatribes is that he is never going to change, no matter how many facts we
throw at him.
When ever he makes a post, just respond with 'Thanks Daryl for the heresay, but
I'm looking for a knowledgable/reputable source for my information.'.
Let him think that he is hot shit and just ignore him.
-Regards,
Darryl Perry
Cyberia BBS : Sacramento, CA : Telnet://cyberia.darktech.org
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
> >> You stated that SearchLight had tons of features that Synchronet
lacked,
> when
> >> in fact this was untrue and you didn't have the foggiest idea of what
> >> features Synchronet had.
> >
> >It does. Since you nothing about Searchlight worth mentioning, why are
you
> >even discussing this.
>
> Heck, at least I know that Searchlight doesn't support Door32. And I also
know
> that from browsing SL's feature list on the Telegrafix web site, that Sync
has
> nearly every feature that SL/Spinnaker has, except the old Spinnaker web
> server. You still have YET to prove otherwise.
Funny, I can run anything that Jimmy Rose puts out in his 32 bit format
under SL or WC5. If you are pushing a Door32.sys that isn't standard, go
ahead. Don't expect anyone but your little group to use it. Jimmy tests
his 32 bit on many BBS platforms and can easily give the setup on a
Searchlight BBS 5.1 system. Some doorprogrammer you are.
> If I suggest it, you automatically don't use it? What a stubborn child
you
> are.
It's the company that I would have to put up with.
> I suggest and recommend reading alt.bbs and breathing oxygen on a regular
> basis. Now please be so kind as to put both of those on your "don't use"
list.
I suggest for you, drink a gallon of gasoline and light your hair on fire.
> >Running down other BBS programs since they are not FREE. Give me a
break,
> >you haven't even been to Santronics or Tribbs.com at all. To even
comment
> >that you know what is going on is pure fabrication.
>
> You still have yet to define what exactly is "fabricated" that you're
talking
> about.
> As I've said, I've been to santronics.com many times.
> I've never been to tribbs.com, and never claimed to.
Lazy and you expect us all to buy your routine? Too lazy to even write
Santronics for information.
> Raving about the virtues of what I like is NOT cramming something down
> someone's throat. And I never hammered PCB, either. Secondly, the only
> "hammering" of TriBBS that I did was my incorrect statement that it hadn't
been
> updated in a long time. That isn't "hammering" of any sort.
Go back to your free stuff. I won't insult it. I may give a personal
opinion but not an insult. But for you......
> > and you don't even HAVE a BBS online and never have.
>
> For the 8 billionth time... I have a private testing board called
> Metapsychosis, running Synchronet v3.00c, which I'm opening to the public
in
> September. Prior to that, I've been a co-sysop on two local dial-up WWIV
> boards, and a File-Op on a large (30+ line) WorldGroup board.
Co-sysop, that the name for someone that the Sysop just wants to be made
feel important. The Sysop does the lions share of the work on the setup and
direction of the system. The Co-sysop usually is a title to help the day to
day running of the message bases, etc.. This does not make you a Sysop by
any stretch of the imagination. Your Ego has run Amuck.
>
> >I am so sick of your practice, I suggest that no one
> >uses anything you suggest or write no matter how good it is. The Company
> >stinks.
>
> Fine, continue to be a stubborn child if that's your wish.
Just stating fact here. You burn anything that you don't use. Hey, I don't
care for PCB, RG, RA and a host of others but there are others that do. I
won't attempt to burn them just because I care to use something else. Sync
isn't bad at all but the company it keeps needs to be improved.
> I will follow Al's suggestion about talking to Santronics about WC sales
> sometime in the future, which is what I said right off the bat -- I'll
> investigate it sometime in the future.
The shut up until you do.
> I'd expect WC sysops to follow their own BBS software much more closely
than I
> do.
We do. You and yours wouldn't last 2 seconds in a WC area. I remember when
you Good Friend and Mentor, the good DR. D. went into the WC areas. He was
eaten alive and spit back out again. You want to copy him, I see, go there
and spout your uneducated Bias. That should be fun to watch. Even Fast
Freddie minds his manners a bit in there. But, then again, Fast Freddie has
a system.
>
> But if a WC 6 feature list is in plain sight as you claim, where's the
link,
> hmm?
> You never gave me a link to a WC 6 feature list.
Here is is again. Write hec...@santronics.com or And...@santronics.com
For about the 10th time, it's been given to you. Now write it and learn or
shut up.
> >were told to call or write Santronics asking
> >about it. You are too lazy to do even that.
>
> Oh? Why do I need to call or write Santronics about it if it's in "plain
view"
> on their website as you've said repeatedly? . . . yet you STILL haven't
said
> where or given a link about the feature list of Wc6.
Lazy, just plain lazy. You are proving why people don't run your door. I
can count the number of systems using quite low numbers. Besides, WC5
wouldn't use it because they have there own. But I forgot, you don't
believe that there are MUDDs written that WC5 can run. Research, Boy,
Research. It's priceless.
> >In otherwords, you don't know a thing about it yet you flamed it.
Typical.
>
> I did NOT "flame" it. I just said (incorrectly) that it hadn't had a
release
> in a long time. I appologize for my mis-statement. But given the total
lack
> of publicity the TriBBS guys use, it's no surprise that many people --
myself
> included -- did not know TriBBS was being supported.
You are admitting fault? Sonofagun!!!! Is there also other things that you
comment regularly on that you also know nothing about? Of course there is.
Do your research a bit and you won't have this problem.
> Daryl, when will you realize that the majority of users of this newsgroup
> dislike you? If anyone is damaging the newsgroup in some way (certainly
not
> "killing it off" though), it's you...
I didn't kill of alt.bbs.allsysop. It went to hell in a hand basket with
the Dr.D, Darryl and Evan show. So you move here. Dr D. tried his dog and
pony act in the WC area and was eaten alive. I think if any of the
Wildkitties are reading this, they know. But few read this area since it's
been reduced to Bad Information Central and Flame anything that costs more
than a dime. If you want things free, why are you charging Regs on your
game?
> What the hell kind of justification is that? You're somehow justified in
> ***publicly slandering me*** because I "run with dogs", whatever the hell
that
> vague statement is supposed to mean? And yet YOU have the nerve to call
ME a
> jackass?
If the haybag fits, wear it.
> >You run with Dogs, you get fleas
>
> In other words, you're an idiot.
I will use small words on this one. Maybe you can understand them. You
hang out in areas that are questionable. Remember Ska? I remember you
being in some of the more questionable areas with him and he was one of the
biggest Pirates and Hackers of all time in the BBS world. You lie with
dogs, expect fleas.
> >Truth hurts, don't it. Don't comment like you are an Expert on subjects
you
> >know nothing about.
>
> If you followed your own advice, you wouldn't be able to comment on
anything,
> ever.
I do follow my own advice. I research it first. You just spout off selling
a Freeware BBS. A Freeware BBS shouldn't need selling, if it's a good
product, it should sell itself. Next you will be telling us that your stuff
cures the common cold.
>
> You still have yet to explain WHY exactly I'm a "fake" or a "liar".
Fakes and Liars won't understand so why bother.
> >Not vague. Stay in here and you are remotely safe. Go outside of here
> >anywhere near ANY system I am putting up and......
>
> "Remotely safe"? You regularly make threats at removing the internet
accounts
> of multiple members of this newsgroup, and yet you still think *I'm* the
one
> somehow "killing off" newsgroups?
This will be the third you did. But this one is already dead. Most have
moved off to other areas. To say that you haven't heard of it therefore it
doesn't exist is absurd. You haven't heard about it because the ones that
know won't come near you or use your Door. We have others we can use.
Notice, I didn't say better, just others.
>
> >> I don't care for people who accuse me of ripping off other code in my
> doorgame
> >> (which, BTW, is NOT programmed in Pascal, and is NOT ripped off of any
> >>other code).
> "Never know"? I've posted this information multiple times.
> DoorMUD is 15,000 lines of object-oriented C++ code. The 16 bit / DOS
version
> was compiled with the OpenDoors library, an open-source C++ doorkit. The
> 32-bit Windows version was compiled with the Synchronet XSDK, a 32-bit C
> library.
Oh, now I see. It's written primarily for one BBS only. If I read what you
have said so far, you also used a different 32 bit doorfile than the rest of
us. That would mean that only Sync could read it. I doubt that statement
but it's the gist. I have worked with Opendoors a bit myself and it doesn't
really give the multithread that I would think that a 32 bit Door would
require no matter what you used to compile it with. Not to say it's bad at
all. There are quite a few 32 bit programs with 16 bit coding in them.
> "Countless other Ansi BBS Doorgames" that have the look and feel of
DoorMUD?
> How about you name ONE! I have yet to see another BBS doorgame MUD that
can
> beat DoorMUD's command interface, or even its stability. The few other
> doorgame MUD's out there like Axe and Fang are mostly horribly unstable.
I did. Read a bit. There are about 4 or 5 MUDDs out there for WC alone.
Axe and Fang are not even in the running on this one.
> The only BBS games that obviously beat out DoorMUD in many ways are the
> Worldgroup MUDs, but these aren't doorgames.
My God, how Egotistical of you . Of course they are. Doors stands for
External Programs. The WCX MUDD is an external as well as is the 16 bit
Legends of the Red Dragon and yours and WGMudd. Get over it. No decent
System Operator will even consider believing in your fairy tale.
> What are you talking about? I have NEVER stated that there are no MUDs
written
> for WC.
>
> I only stated that MajorMUD does not run on WC. That statement was 100%
true.
You stated it even earlier in this letter. What's the matter, take too much
Prozac? Try Vitamin E.
> >Tell us again just how you spend the bulk of your day looking at
Santronics.
> >I went in and got that information with just a search.
>
> Heck, I Don't even see a search option on the front page of
santronics.com.
Then how can you even state anything on WC at all? But you did, do and will
even more.
> Well, YOU claim to be a WC sysop, right? I've asked YOU about WC 6's
feature
> list and YOU never answered me.
Why should any of us WC types even cooperate with you? You are a vile
little creature that only runs those things down that you don't understand
and refuses to actually do any of the work yourself. You say you are a
Gread BBS Door Author. You are about the only one that hasn't invested the
time to actually find out if you stuff will run on the most used BBSes. Why
would any of us even bother.
> What "stories" have I made up?
> BTW, again, I have NEVER claimed to be an expert on WildCat.
Trash Talking BBS Systems you can't use. You don't even know if your own
game will run under them. Actually, it will but not through your
brilliance. You just wrote the door, not the BBS.
> >An Expert is a person that used to Pert but doesn't anymore.
>
> That sounds like something a 4-year-old would say. BTW, Pert isn't even a
> verb.
And you Ain't no Expert either.
>
> >One door does not make a Door Author of the level you give the
appearance.
>
> The number of doorgames an Author makes isn't really relevant in whether
or not
> they're a doorgame author. I could easily write other games if I wanted
to,
> but I don't because I'm DEDICATED to DoorMUD. You have to understand that
> DoorMUD is a *HUGE* project that is a lot more complex in design than
something
> like a LORD-clone.
Wear your badge well. It won't sell your product to the WC, Tribbs or
Searchlight crowd. You have alienated them quite well. Some business
person you are.
>
> I would *love* to write other doors. I eventually plan on writing a
planetary
> strategy game and also another MUD (this time, future-based). However at
the
> moment I'm dedicated to spending my spare coding time on DoorMUD.
Does this mean it isn't perfect? I could swear that act like it is. Of
course it isn't. There are no perfect programs in existance.
> Most of the sysops & players who enjoy DoorMUD appreciate the fact that
I'm
> dedicated to the project. You can read some of their comments on my
message
> board, http://pub51.ezboard.com/fdoormudwebmessageboardfrm1
Why would I wish to read you ranting. There are a few thousand Sysops who
would rather pass on that one.
> Yeah, because I've never actually seen anyone running or using your doors.
> Heck, I don't even know what your doors are. I've asked you repeatedly to
> provide links or info or ANY proof that you've actually written anything,
and
> you never have.
I have nothing to prove to you. Since you know so much about Searchlight
(not) of course you have never heard of them.
> I never have professed to be "world famous", nor do I think I'm better
than any
> other software author in this scene.
Read the above paragraph you wrote. Liar.
> Yes, I am proud of DoorMUD. I'm proud and happy that I made something
that a
> decent number of BBS users seem to enjoy. I'm proud that I was able to
benefit
> the BBS scene and continue to do so. But a little bit of pride isn't a
bad
> thing. But I wouldn't say that I'm *excessively* proud of it to the point
> where I need to "learn a little humility".
If you had a little bit of humility and was less of a Militant, I might
believe you. Be proud of it but let others also be proud of theirs. I am
quite sure that Hector and Andrea, Joe and Frank, and a host of others are
also proud ot theirs and they don't even mention yours. Why is that?
Daryl
Daryl Hunt
to take a perfectly good discussion and turn it into a slugfest just so you
can insult someone elses product. Make most of even more sure that we will
forget you next Christmas when we go on a BBS Software Buying spree.
"Darryl Perry" <dperr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c39c8d76.01061...@posting.google.com...
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
>
> Most of the sysops & players who enjoy DoorMUD appreciate the fact that
I'm
> dedicated to the project. You can read some of their comments on my
message
> board, http://pub51.ezboard.com/fdoormudwebmessageboardfrm1
In all fairness, I did take your advice and go there. Let's see, you have a
16 bit for regular BBSes inlcluding WG that is compiled with Opendoors 16
bit. You have a proprietary 32 bit for exactly ONE BBS. I counted about 15
different people in your Message base and most were USERS and not Sysops.
Broken links. Shall I keep going? Actually I can't. There isn't much to
tell.
If I can run a MUDD on a multiple of BBS Systems, that makes it a Doorgame.
If I can run it on only one, it's still a Doorgame, just a propietary one.
You offer a 16 bit door for other BBSes. We have at our disposal 32 bit
MUDD Doorgames that we can run. You said that you used a 32 bit door file
that was the standard. If it was the standard, it would also work on other
systems. It won't, therefore it is not the standard. This is why your 32
bit doorgame is called propietary and is in exactly the same category with
the MUDDS you Yell to high heavens that they are not Doors. Nothing wrong
with any of them as long as they work. Yes, Evan, I did my homework.
http://dmud.thebbs.org/index.html is down as well as
http://dmud.thebbs.org. The only thing that was up was
, http://pub51.ezboard.com/fdoormudwebmessageboardfrm1. Nothing to say
eccept to give you the heads up. I hate to see any site with broken links.
Daryl
RhythmNp
schizophrenic nutcase like you. Half of your post is LIES and the other half
is NONSENSE.
I'll comment on a few moronic things you wrote that stand out:
>We do. You and yours wouldn't last 2 seconds in a WC area. I remember when
>you Good Friend and Mentor, the good DR. D. went into the WC areas. He was
>eaten alive and spit back out again. You want to copy him, I see, go there
>and spout your uneducated Bias. That should be fun to watch.
Dr. Dayal was not my "good friend" or "mentor". As I'll say again, there never
was nor never has been a "group" out to get you.
>> You never gave me a link to a WC 6 feature list.
>
>Here is is again. Write hec...@santronics.com or And...@santronics.com
>For about the 10th time, it's been given to you. Now write it and learn or
>shut up.
Odd, the first 9 times you insisted the information was right on the
santronics.com web site...
>Lazy, just plain lazy. You are proving why people don't run your door. I
>can count the number of systems using quite low numbers.
Actually, quite a few sysops who regularly read and post to this newsgroup run
my door and many enjoy it...
>But I forgot, you don't
>believe that there are MUDDs written that WC5 can run.
I have *NEVER SAID THAT*. Quite a simple concept. I NEVER, EVER said that WC5
can't run MUD's. If you claim I made such a statement, FIND IT AND QUOTE IT.
You won't find it simply because I NEVER SAID IT.
>I didn't kill of alt.bbs.allsysop. It went to hell in a hand basket with
>the Dr.D, Darryl and Evan show.
Things go to hell when DARYL HUNT shows up. That much is obvious.
>If you want things free, why are you charging Regs on your
>game?
Your assumption is incorrect. I don't insist all software be free. If
Synchronet cost $200, I'd still gladly pay for a reg.
>I will use small words on this one. Maybe you can understand them. You
>hang out in areas that are questionable. Remember Ska?
Yes, I remember ska. Ska is a style of music that came out of Jamaica in the
50's/60's. Reggae came from ska. I enjoy listening to ska. I think I've
posted in alt.music.ska a few times too.
>I remember you
>being in some of the more questionable areas with him and he was one of the
>biggest Pirates and Hackers of all time in the BBS world. You lie with
>dogs, expect fleas.
Oh, apparently "ska" is someone's name? I've never talked to anyone using the
handle "ska". I certainly haven't been in "questionable areas" with this
character, considering I've never been in "questionable areas" ever. Stop
making up LIES to attempt to falsely SLANDER me.
>Next you will be telling us that your stuff cures the common cold.
Yes, yes it does actually.
>> "Never know"? I've posted this information multiple times.
>> DoorMUD is 15,000 lines of object-oriented C++ code. The 16 bit / DOS
>version
>> was compiled with the OpenDoors library, an open-source C++ doorkit. The
>> 32-bit Windows version was compiled with the Synchronet XSDK, a 32-bit C
>> library.
>
>Oh, now I see. It's written primarily for one BBS only.
No, I wrote the 16-bit DOS version long before the 32-bit Synchronet version.
>If I read what you
>have said so far, you also used a different 32 bit doorfile than the rest of
>us. That would mean that only Sync could read it. I doubt that statement
>but it's the gist.
Yes, that's the statement. The reason is because there's no Door32 library for
C++, and I don't have the time to write my own. Therefore making a Door32
version of my program isn't possible at the moment unless I want to write all
of the comm stuff myself -- it didn't seem worth the time investment.
>I have worked with Opendoors a bit myself and it doesn't
>really give the multithread that I would think that a 32 bit Door would
>require no matter what you used to compile it with.
1. Multithreading is not required at all to write 32-bit doors.
2. The 32-bit version of OpenDoors actually *IS* fully multi-threaded. It's
done quite nicely, actually -- it makes 32-bit doors that run faster than
anything else. The flaw, though, with OpenDoors is it's too old. The 32-bit
part of it utilizes the Windows Comm functions, which means it's impossible to
get a 32-bit OpenDoors program to run on telnet, no matter what telnet server
you use. Therefore, I didn't use OpenDoors to make the 32-bit version of
DoorMUD.
>I did. Read a bit. There are about 4 or 5 MUDDs out there for WC alone.
4 or 5 different MUDs? List them. And then compare their features to DoorMUD.
I'm curious.
>> The only BBS games that obviously beat out DoorMUD in many ways are the
>> Worldgroup MUDs, but these aren't doorgames.
>
>My God, how Egotistical of you . Of course they are. Doors stands for
>External Programs. The WCX MUDD is an external as well as is the 16 bit
>Legends of the Red Dragon and yours and WGMudd. Get over it. No decent
>System Operator will even consider believing in your fairy tale.
You're an idiot. You can EMAIL THE MAKERS OF WORLDGROUP, and they will tell
you that the Worldgroup MUDs (And worldgroup modules in general) ARE NOT
DOORGAMES!!!!
I suppose YOU somehow know more than the ex-employees of Galacticomm,
Netvillage, and TotalE; the current employees of WorldGroupWare; and all of the
sysops and users who post on alt.bbs.majorbbs and comp.bbs.majorbbs? I suppose
THEY are all wrong and YOU'RE somehow right, huh? God, you're daft.
>> What are you talking about? I have NEVER stated that there are no MUDs
>written
>> for WC.
>>
>> I only stated that MajorMUD does not run on WC. That statement was 100%
>true.
>
>You stated it even earlier in this letter. What's the matter, take too much
>Prozac? Try Vitamin E.
I STILL never stated that. Try and quote where.
>> What "stories" have I made up?
>> BTW, again, I have NEVER claimed to be an expert on WildCat.
>
>Trash Talking BBS Systems you can't use. You don't even know if your own
>game will run under them. Actually, it will but not through your
>brilliance. You just wrote the door, not the BBS.
I'm well aware that DoorMUD runs on WildCat you fool. I've sold registrations
to a few WC sysops. I *NEVER* stated that MUDs don't run on WildCat. This is a
fabrication that your schizophrenia-ridden mind invented. You suffer from
delusions, paranoia, and loose associations. Get off your computer and see a
trained psychologist immediately.
RhythmNp
>16 bit for regular BBSes inlcluding WG that is compiled with Opendoors 16
>bit.
No, WorldGroup sysops use the 32-bit version through a Synchronet doorgame
server.
> You have a proprietary 32 bit for exactly ONE BBS. I counted about 15
>different people in your Message base and most were USERS and not Sysops.
First off, several of those posters are also sysops. Secondly, 15 regular
posters on a doorgame web message board is pretty well off. Last time I looked
at LORD's message board (admittedly, a while ago), it was just about dead.
There are no "broken links" (see below)
>If I can run a MUDD on a multiple of BBS Systems, that makes it a Doorgame.
>If I can run it on only one, it's still a Doorgame, just a propietary one.
>You offer a 16 bit door for other BBSes.
It's not "MUDD". It's MUD. One D. Multi-User Dungeon.
I made the 16-bit version long before the 32-bit Sync exclusive one. The game
was designed for all BBS softwares. The Sync port came much later.
>We have at our disposal 32 bit
>MUDD Doorgames that we can run.
List a few, and then compare their features to DoorMUD.
>You said that you used a 32 bit door file
>that was the standard. If it was the standard, it would also work on other
>systems. It won't, therefore it is not the standard.
I *NEVER* claimed that I used the standard 32-bit doorfile for DoorMUD. It's
simply not something that I ever said. I openly admit that the 32-bit version
of DoorMUD runs off of XTRN.DAT.
>This is why your 32
>bit doorgame is called propietary and is in exactly the same category with
>the MUDDS you Yell to high heavens that they are not Doors.
No, those are DLL programs. They dynamically link into the BBS software. They
are entirely separate from DOORS, which are EXE programs and run off of a
dropfile.
The 32-bit version of DoorMUD is an EXE that runs off of a dropfile, hence, a
door.
>http://dmud.thebbs.org/index.html is down as well as
>http://dmud.thebbs.org. The only thing that was up was
>, http://pub51.ezboard.com/fdoormudwebmessageboardfrm1. Nothing to say
>eccept to give you the heads up. I hate to see any site with broken links.
FYI, all of TheBBS.org is down right now. This is no fault of my own. As for
why it's down right now, I have no idea, it's usually up and was up all the
rest of the day. None of my links are "broken". Try revisiting tomorrow when
the host is working properly. Don't try and blame ME for thebbs.org being
down.
Bil Simser
>
> >> The only BBS games that obviously beat out DoorMUD in many ways are
the
> >> Worldgroup MUDs, but these aren't doorgames.
> >
> >My God, how Egotistical of you . Of course they are. Doors stands
for
> >External Programs. The WCX MUDD is an external as well as is the 16
bit
> >Legends of the Red Dragon and yours and WGMudd. Get over it. No
decent
> >System Operator will even consider believing in your fairy tale.
>
> You're an idiot. You can EMAIL THE MAKERS OF WORLDGROUP, and they
will tell
> you that the Worldgroup MUDs (And worldgroup modules in general) ARE
NOT
> DOORGAMES!!!!
>
> I suppose YOU somehow know more than the ex-employees of Galacticomm,
> Netvillage, and TotalE; the current employees of WorldGroupWare; and
all of the
> sysops and users who post on alt.bbs.majorbbs and comp.bbs.majorbbs?
I suppose
> THEY are all wrong and YOU'RE somehow right, huh? God, you're daft.
Well, besides the fact that this war has been going on for god knows how
many messages I just wanted to jump into the first and make a few
statements about Worldgroup and their modules (being a MBBS/WG developer
myself). I'm not taking any sides here, just want to state some facts.
The biggest problem is of course defining what is a doorgame? BBS Corner
says it's and "...interactive, multi-player BBS based games where users
can play games with other users". Another site states "...an external
program of the BBS. Usually either games or offline mail facilities are
doors". So with that said, is a door a WG module. Not really. A door can
exist quite well without a BBS and will run happily in local mode if
needed (or given a makeshift drop file to work with). WG modules are DLL
files that can only be launched by WG itself (well, okay, technically
you could build a WG launcher app but nobody has built one to date that
I know of) and co-exist with it. They're loaded when the BBS is loaded
and shut down when the BBS shuts down instead of how traditional 'doors'
are loaded/unloaded with each use. WG modules are also multi-user by
nature. You have access to the list of users on and offline and can
interact with them with little effort via the WG API. Yes, some door
games can do this but if you look at how they're launched (by starting
up a DOS/Win32/OS2/Linux/etc executable) then it's not really muti-user,
but might have some multi-player capabilities. I will say that when Seth
was still in control of LORD, I wrote a skeleton LORD app for him to
show him how to write MBBS/WG modules (he didn't have any experience in
it) and when he saw the code he was surprised at how easy it was to
handle multiple users. All in all, the WG architecture is pretty nice
(but that's a whole 'nuther thread).
So in the traditional sense of the word doorgame (or door if you want to
mince words) they're technically different, but underneath they're both
games for a BBS not matter how they're launched or what features they
have. You do however have some leverage with MBBS/WG modules as you can
utilize the features of the BBS like email etc. without having to worry
about compatibilities with systems. So if I wanted to write an email to
a user I would have to write routines to handle the various BBS systems
out there and identify the type of system the game was running under to
make use of that feature. Then of course, WG is one BBS system and there
are no "clones" per se except for Sync and Fusion (and perhaps Falken)
that mimic the look of the system.
Okay, I haven't broke tremendous ground here and you can flame me back
yelling that I should keep my nose out of this but if you call a spade a
spade, a door game under any BBS system (WG or otherwise) is just that.
A game. So I wouldn't hold a comparison up to door games vs WG modules
if you're trying to say what's better. That's like saying a Playstation
version of a game beats out the PC version (which isn't always true) but
it's feathers and concrete IMO.
liB
Darryl Perry
DH> From: dh...@i70west.com
DH>
DH> Ah, the tag team. What took you so long. You two deserve each
DH> other. Ni
DH> to take a perfectly good discussion and turn it into a slugfest
DH> just so yo
DH> can insult someone elses product. Make most of even more sure that
DH> we wil
DH> forget you next Christmas when we go on a BBS Software Buying
DH> spree.
Thank you Daryl for your heresay, but I prefer to gather my information
from
a knowledgeable/reputable source. I do not recognize you as any sort
of
authority.
-Regards,
Darryl Perry
Cyberia BBS * Cyberia.darktech.org
RhythmNp
all along... WG mods are DLL files which are dynamically linked into the BBS;
IMHO, this definitely makes them not be doors.
A vital mechanic of doors is that the bbs "chains" to them (WWIV terminology)
or "opens a door" (PCBoard terminology), passing control to a different EXE,
and providing user info through a dropfile. Clearly, WG mods don't work like
that.
The reason why I got in this argument w/ Daryl in the first place is, he told a
newbie WG sysop that MajorMud was a doorgame. I said this was untrue, MajorMud
most certainly isn't a doorgame, and no WG mods really are.
In my opinion it's important to make a distinction between doors and WG mods so
that newbie WG sysops don't get confused. I've heard of a lot of WG newbies
trying to put WG mods (like MajorMud) under WG's doorgame handler (GHost) which
obviously doesn't work at all.
As for which is "better" (doors or mods), well, that would be a whole different
argument that thankfully we haven't touched :)
Bil Simser
>
> In my opinion it's important to make a distinction between doors and
WG mods so
> that newbie WG sysops don't get confused. I've heard of a lot of WG
newbies
> trying to put WG mods (like MajorMud) under WG's doorgame handler
(GHost) which
> obviously doesn't work at all.
I think this should be the focus here (although this thread is getting
long and was really about Freeware vs Commercial BBSes). One of the
important things in a good ng is to inform people about how things work.
Having a person go out and spend $$$ on a WG system, only to find out
that they can't run their copy of <insert door name here> is never good
(just as having someone buy a copy of MajorMUD and try to run it under
SL, Sync or any other BBS package). So even though I could argue that
Worldgroup does chain to a door (not passing control to a different EXE
but certainly passing control to the module for the length of the
timeslice) I think it should be stated (and it has) that WG mods and
Doors are just different kettles of fish on the technical side.
Now, going back to some of the original discussion about the comparision
on DOORMUD vs MajorMUD and whatever (sorry, the thread scrolled off my
server). Given the distinction between WG modules and door I don't think
there can be a comparison.
I think one of the sub-threads of this thread (if that's even a term)
was a BBS that offered both menu editing tools AND scripting. I checked
out the features of the various systems (SL, WC, etc.) and none of them
seem to have this. They have one or other but not both. Now before
someone jumps on me, yes, WC (or one of them) has a scripting feature,
but I think the discussion is more geared towards scripting a menu vs
editing it with a tool, not just scripting in the general sense. In any
case, I find Synchronets baja scripting language to be nice and it
wouldn't take much to create a menu editing tool (GUI) to build end
menus that generated the baja script so it wouldn't be far off. But
thinking about it now, I really don't know what this whole discussion
was all about now. Can't see the forest for the trees...
> As for which is "better" (doors or mods), well, that would be a whole
different
> argument that thankfully we haven't touched :)
True but hey I'd be willing to get into that one and discuss the pros
and cons of each <egrin>
liB
Chris Martin
Once upon a time, out on MARS.
While reading the mail, wispering this:
BS> I think one of the sub-threads of this thread (if that's even a term)
Sounds good to me...
BS> was a BBS that offered both menu editing tools AND scripting. I checked
BS> out the features of the various systems (SL, WC, etc.) and none of them
BS> seem to have this. They have one or other but not both. Now before
BS> someone jumps on me, yes, WC (or one of them) has a scripting feature,
BS> but I think the discussion is more geared towards scripting a menu vs
BS> editing it with a tool, not just scripting in the general sense.
WC4 has both, a menu creation/editing tool (Makemenu) as well as
a programming/scripting lanquage (WCX) that allows the sysop or
other programmer to let WC do a tremendous amount more than just
be a BBS.
Chris Martin, mar...@NOSPAMgte.net
* WCE 2.1G1/2419 * Windows 95: Compiled under an OS/2 DOS session! Bwaaaaa
Al Lawrence
>>You didn't listen, that's all. You made snide comments about Tribbs when
>>you didn't know a thing about the subject.
>
>Why *would* I know anything about the subject? TriBBS hasn't been publicized
>for years. Again, the majority of developers in the BBS scene wouldn't know a
>thing about the future of TriBBS.
With all due respect, a *true* developer would ensure that they read all the
BBS Sopftware newsgroups (and subscribe to BBS software related announcement
lists) on a REGULAR basis, as that is where a discussions take place and
information is made available and announcemnts are made relative to THAT
particular BBS software.
There have been comments made by the new authors of TRIBBS about the *future*
of TriBBS, etc...
TribBS has a following, how large or small is outside my visionary capabilities
<grin> and they go to SPECIFIC TriBBS areas for there *technical
nourishment*...
>Don't expect people to know about TriBBS unless it's publicized.
Out of curiosity, where would be the best places for one to *publicize* (I am
always looking for new places <grin>)
>>But I can
>>name functions that SL can do that Syn can't I bet.
From what I can tell SL and ProBoard are a dead issue and have bene for some
time... not sure why the 2 of you insist on *beating a dead horse<grin>)
>Synchronet's popularity among users is approaching the point where it will
>rival, if not surpass, WildCat in the near future. It's pretty clear you don't
>follow the Synchronet scene at all. Dozens of new Synchronet boards pop up
>every month. Meanwhile, many sysops who run other software are chosing to
>change to Synchronet. Two of the largest WWIV boards in existence switched to
>Synchronet two months ago.
Synchronet's popularity growth has definitely been somehting to watch and I am
sure it will continue... however, at the same time I can say that WINServer
(notice I did not say Wildcat!) growth is not stagnant. Actual numbers can be
obtained from Santronics, IF they care to make those numbers public.
>I'll note again that over 90% of my doorgame registrations lately have been
>either to Synchronet sysops, or Worldgroup sysops with Synchronet doorgame
>servers.
Hmmm, interesting... I have no idea what kind of systems run my 16-Bit products
since I don't ask for that information when they are registered. The 32-Bit
products on the other hand are easy to track since they only run on WINServer
<grin>
>
>It's not "weak" in the features department at all. The only thing it lacks is
>the HTML/web side of things, which certainly isn't vital to a BBS's survival
>anyway.
Agreed Synchronet is feature rich free BBS software package...
>
>WildCat 5 may be a better than SL and WG in terms of being up-to-date, but even
>so, few large companies use WildCat to power their websites. Surely this is a
>sign that better alternatives exist.
No one can "power their WEB sites with WILDCAT" but they can with WINServer....
as for how many *large companies* do is not somthing that any of us have a
handle on...
>
>>You get what you pay for.
>
>In the cases of most commercial BBS software, no. You *don't* get what you pay
>for. You get ripped off.
Not to be argumentative....
Hmmm, so the only software that does not *rip you off* is freeware? I consider
my products *commercial* and I don't think my customers feel ripped off (else
they would not be repeat customers). What about your product, it is commercial?
======================================================
Santronics VAReseller (Discounted WINServer, WILDCAT!)
a...@sunrisedoors.com (ICQ)14055399
http://www.sunrisedoors.com
ftp://ftp.sunrisedoors.com
======================================================
Subscribe to our mailing lists on our WEB SITE!
======================================================
RhythmNp
>BBS Sopftware newsgroups (and subscribe to BBS software related announcement
>lists) on a REGULAR basis, as that is where a discussions take place and
>information is made available and announcemnts are made relative to THAT
>particular BBS software.
There are 50+ alt.bbs.* newsgroups. Reading all of them on a regular basis
would be far too time consuming. If I did that, I wouldn't have any spare time
to code anything, so it would be totally counter-productive...:(
>There have been comments made by the new authors of TRIBBS about the *future*
>of TriBBS, etc...
>
>TribBS has a following, how large or small is outside my visionary
>capabilities
><grin> and they go to SPECIFIC TriBBS areas for there *technical
>nourishment*...
I haven't seen any recent posts from the developers of TriBBS on alt.bbs. I
would hope they would put some sort of announcement on here. If they only ever
post on alt.bbs.tribbs, they only get people who were already TriBBS users.
People who have never used TriBBS would have no reason to subscribe to
alt.bbs.tribbs unless they
a) already used tribbs or
b) heard about it advertised elsewhere (my key point...)
>Out of curiosity, where would be the best places for one to *publicize* (I am
>always looking for new places <grin>)
Everywhere that's even remotely bbs-related.
Vital all-purpose/all-software bbs newsgroups (Alt.bbs, alt.bbs.sysop,
alt.bbs.allsysop), and also several FidoNet echos. Perhaps some other bbs
networks like DoveNet, MajorNet, WWIVnet, etc. Grab some web message boards
too (there's one on thebbs.org).
Being mentioned on TheBBS.org's BBS news ( http://archives.thebbs.org/bbsnews/
) is key too. Its very easy to do, just email the editor. TriBBS was only
mentioned on there ONCE recently, back in February, about needing a new beta
pool. Had there been more recent announcements on there, a LOT more people
would know about TriBBS, myself included.
There's other sites like BBS News Central ( http://bbscentral.kracked.com )
although that one kinda died out recently, it used to get a lot of hits though.
Try to get mentioned on as many websites as possible. That way, if people just
do a general search on an engine like Google, your site will come up. Also be
sure to have tons of Keywords in your html files.
Recently, a lot of sysops have been finding out about my door from web
searches... For example, try doing a search for "MUD doorgame" on google.com, a
lot of the matches are about my door ;) And apparently if you do a general
search for "doorgame" on yahoo/google, my other site (Worldgroup Doorgame
Central) is the first match, cool eh? (Altho if you search for "door game" as
2 separate words, its waaaay down lower on the list, but thats another matter)
>From what I can tell SL and ProBoard are a dead issue and have bene for some
>time... not sure why the 2 of you insist on *beating a dead horse<grin>)
Shrug, Daryl was the one who brought up SearchLight for no apparent reason... I
think he was trying to claim it was super-powerful or something :)
>Hmmm, interesting... I have no idea what kind of systems run my 16-Bit
>products
>since I don't ask for that information when they are registered. The 32-Bit
>products on the other hand are easy to track since they only run on WINServer
><grin>
Well, it's definitely something to consider adding to your registration form ;)
Its useful information to have, helps you track how your doors are doing on
different platforms. Also shows you which ones aren't using it at all, so you
know some new places to advertise to attempt to get those sysops to try it. Ex,
if you find few Synchronet sysops registering, then you know to try advertising
on DoveNet (a mainly Sync-based network). Ditto with MajorNet, WWIVNet, and so
forth.
I also have a "Where did you hear about this door?" question on my registration
form, but I've found that everyone seems to put down something different, soo..
I still haven't found what sites are most effective for advertising. If
anything I guess it just shows that advertising in as many bbs-related
places/sites/networks is important.
>>>You get what you pay for.
>>
>>In the cases of most commercial BBS software, no. You *don't* get what you
>pay
>>for. You get ripped off.
>
>Not to be argumentative....
>
>Hmmm, so the only software that does not *rip you off* is freeware?
No, that's not what I said/meant, I'll clarify. I simply said that in the case
of _most_ (key phrase) *commercial BBS software* (another key phrase), it's
overpriced. I'm not saying that Searchlight, WorldGroup, WildCat etc should be
freeware, I just think they're a little bit too pricey. I guess WildCat isn't
so bad for the price, but, the Line Count upgrades still seem a bit steep.
BTW, I do think some older hobbyist (non-commercial) bbs software like WWIV is
kind of pricey too... it still costs $90 for like a 2-line version, yikes, just
doesn't seem worth it when there's cheaper hobbyist packages that have more
power.
> I consider
>my products *commercial* and I don't think my customers feel ripped off (else
>they would not be repeat customers). What about your product, it is
>commercial?
Well, I was talking about the commercial BBS software packages, meaning the
professional systems (WorldGroup, WINServer, SL Spinnaker, etc) -- the ones
that cost a few hundred bucks. I wasn't talking about hobbyist BBS software
(usually the < $100 ones that don't have web servers and whatnot), nor was I
talking about BBS add-ons (doors, etc).
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
> >From what I can tell SL and ProBoard are a dead issue and have bene for
some
> >time... not sure why the 2 of you insist on *beating a dead horse<grin>)
>
> Shrug, Daryl was the one who brought up SearchLight for no apparent
reason... I
> think he was trying to claim it was super-powerful or something :)
Don't start this crap up again, will you. Keep your barbs to yourself and
we can have some nice conversation in here.
Daryl
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
news:20010612235835...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
>
*future*
> >of TriBBS, etc...
> >TribBS has a following, how large or small is outside my visionary
> >capabilities
> ><grin> and they go to SPECIFIC TriBBS areas for there *technical
> >nourishment*...
>
> I haven't seen any recent posts from the developers of TriBBS on alt.bbs.
I
> would hope they would put some sort of announcement on here. If they only
ever
> post on alt.bbs.tribbs, they only get people who were already TriBBS
users.
Evan, you didn't read the BBS areas then. I commented Tribbs as well as
Paul B. Frank and Joe and a few others. To be a Quality Doorgame Author, one
would think that one would go into the WWIV, RA, RG, WC, WG, etc and let
people know about your products as well as learn what you can do to help
the. But what I see is a lot of spam coming in about products that they
really can use. I am not saying you are doing that. In fact, I haven't
seen mention of your product in any of those areas. I believe you when you
say you don't go in them. But that would be a start.
> People who have never used TriBBS would have no reason to subscribe to
> alt.bbs.tribbs unless they
> a) already used tribbs or
> b) heard about it advertised elsewhere (my key point...)
They would have equally no reason to subscribe to this one either. But they
do. Besides, there are well over 2000 Tribbs Sysops and we all get the
information somehow. Curiousity does make us go back. Besides, for the
beginner, Tribbs is absolutely, if not the easiest, one of the easiest to
get up and running in about 5 minutes and have doors running in 15. If that
doesn't bring in new users, I don't know what will. Sync is much more
difficult and a beginner shouldn't try it at first unless he or she wishes
to get flustered early on. Better to start with a simplier package and go
from there.
> >Out of curiosity, where would be the best places for one to *publicize*
(I am
> >always looking for new places <grin>)
>
> Everywhere that's even remotely bbs-related.
Oh, you mean like alt.bbs.tribbs?
> Vital all-purpose/all-software bbs newsgroups (Alt.bbs, alt.bbs.sysop,
> alt.bbs.allsysop), and also several FidoNet echos. Perhaps some other bbs
> networks like DoveNet, MajorNet, WWIVnet, etc. Grab some web message
boards
> too (there's one on thebbs.org).
>
> Being mentioned on TheBBS.org's BBS news (
http://archives.thebbs.org/bbsnews/
> ) is key too. Its very easy to do, just email the editor. TriBBS was
only
> mentioned on there ONCE recently, back in February, about needing a new
beta
> pool. Had there been more recent announcements on there, a LOT more
people
> would know about TriBBS, myself included.
>
> There's other sites like BBS News Central (
http://bbscentral.kracked.com )
> although that one kinda died out recently, it used to get a lot of hits
though.
Many of us don't go to these places you mentioned. Sorry, but that's just a
fact. New Users never learn of these from us since most are for other
people. I hope you understand that one but there have been some rough times
for many from those folks that frequent there and visversa. We are almost 2
warring camps. I guess that would be attributed to human nature.
> Recently, a lot of sysops have been finding out about my door from web
> searches... For example, try doing a search for "MUD doorgame" on
google.com, a
> lot of the matches are about my door ;) And apparently if you do a
general
> search for "doorgame" on yahoo/google, my other site (Worldgroup Doorgame
> Central) is the first match, cool eh? (Altho if you search for "door
game" as
> 2 separate words, its waaaay down lower on the list, but thats another
matter)
Careful, you get on me for Commercials::))
> >From what I can tell SL and ProBoard are a dead issue and have bene for
some
> >time... not sure why the 2 of you insist on *beating a dead horse<grin>)
>
> Shrug, Daryl was the one who brought up SearchLight for no apparent
reason... I
> think he was trying to claim it was super-powerful or something :)
Call it self defense. I took out the weakest of the BBSes I had for you to
compare with. Actually, Sync and SL compare well for different reasons.
Sync has power but is a bear to setup and maintain. SL has almost as much
power in the Telnet end but runs off and hides in the Graphics department
and is a snap to setup and maintain. Regardless of the lack of Telegrafix
support, the users support it well. I think Clawson will sell it eventually
to someone that can handle it better but I just can't predict when.
> >Not to be argumentative....
> >
> >Hmmm, so the only software that does not *rip you off* is freeware?
>
> No, that's not what I said/meant, I'll clarify. I simply said that in the
case
> of _most_ (key phrase) *commercial BBS software* (another key phrase),
it's
> overpriced. I'm not saying that Searchlight, WorldGroup, WildCat etc
should be
> freeware, I just think they're a little bit too pricey. I guess WildCat
isn't
> so bad for the price, but, the Line Count upgrades still seem a bit steep.
Now, you clarify. It's about time. But you did say and you meant that
commercial software is a ripoff. That only freeware is worth the money.
Not using SL as an example, when you want the best, expect to pay for it.
WG and WC lead the pack and will cost the most. But the price has come down
considerably on both due to the competition between WG and WC. the Freeware
systems have had nothing to do with any of that since they cannot compete at
their level.
>
> BTW, I do think some older hobbyist (non-commercial) bbs software like
WWIV is
> kind of pricey too... it still costs $90 for like a 2-line version, yikes,
just
> doesn't seem worth it when there's cheaper hobbyist packages that have
more
> power.
I agree, Evan. Let's hope that the new Windows version of Tribbs puts an
end to this type of pricing since Tribbs doesn't deal in NODE Counts. I can
see paying 45 or 60 bucks for an Unlimited 32 bit, GUI BBS. I don't know
the cost as of yet, but I am sure it will be announced and be reasonable.
>
> > I consider
> >my products *commercial* and I don't think my customers feel ripped off
(else
> >they would not be repeat customers). What about your product, it is
> >commercial?
>
> Well, I was talking about the commercial BBS software packages, meaning
the
> professional systems (WorldGroup, WINServer, SL Spinnaker, etc) -- the
ones
> that cost a few hundred bucks. I wasn't talking about hobbyist BBS
software
> (usually the < $100 ones that don't have web servers and whatnot), nor was
I
> talking about BBS add-ons (doors, etc).
Evan, there are more Hobbiest running WG and WC than not. We are talking in
the tens of thousands running WC alone. All of these folks can't be
Commercial People. Here is a couple of prices.
WC5 - 2 line Community Edition --- 149.99 32 bit 2 line addition
59.00
SL5.1- 2 line 5.1 --- 49.99 32 bit each
additional line $9.95
Tribbs 11.5 --- 45.00 16 bit
unlimited nodes
You will notice that all 3 can run almost anything that is not Proprietary.
In fact, SL can run a plain EXE as a door without a Doorway, Fossil Driver
or even a Doorfile. I use these 3 (one, I am equally familiar with all 3)
because they are Not overpriced for what you get and they run from the Rank
Beginner to the Not Faint as Heart. But what they all three have in common
is, they can be setup in under 2 hours, be running doors, message bases,
etc.. Tribbs can be setup in under 15 minutes while SL takes about 30
minutes and WC5 can take up 2 hours for setup depending. But all three can
actually be accepting callers in under 5 minutes and 2 can be accepting
Telnet calls in that same time. Tribbs has the lowest learning curve, SL is
a bit more but WC5 has a large learning curve and is not recommended for the
beginner. WG is, by far the big Daddy of them all for a learning curve::))
An advantage that SL and Tribbs has is the ability to steal about every 16
bit door out there no matter what it's made for and do it without even
having to resort to coding of any kind. Just tell them what kind of door it
is (what bbs it runs under)_ and they take it from there. SL can run
anything that Jimmy Rose puts out as well as most 32 bit Door Authors that
don't write specifically for WG and WC5 (in otherwords, proprietary). WC5
isn't so simple.
The freeware systems can probably take on Tribbs easy for features but not
for long I suspect, have a lot more trouble with SL but not for long since
SL is dead on development but WC and WG are just too far ahead and WC6 is
lightyears ahead of anything unless WG counters. But the fact is, including
WWIV, these are most of the last vestige of the Commercial BBSes in
existence. Without them, there is no competition and things would get
pretty dull around the BBS world.
SL is deader than dead with Clawson hanging onto it. Tribbs changed hands
twice since Mark had it and the newest owners are looking to compete with
WC5/6 and WG (now that's a mouse climbing up an Elephants leg with rape on
it's mind<grin>) But it should be interesting to see the outcome. Counting
the Windows Tribbs in, the last 3 are really in their own category and there
is absolutely nothing freeware that can compare or even compete with them.
2 are costly but not really out of reach of most. Freeware doesn't allow
this level of competition or devolopment.
Daryl
Bil Simser
news:9g6vbt$mn6$1...@news.chatlink.com...
Hey, a debate is a debate right?
> beginner, Tribbs is absolutely, if not the easiest, one of the easiest
to
> get up and running in about 5 minutes and have doors running in 15.
If that
> doesn't bring in new users, I don't know what will. Sync is much more
> difficult and a beginner shouldn't try it at first unless he or she
wishes
> to get flustered early on. Better to start with a simplier package
and go
I'm not sure what your test for ease is but I can setup either system in
the same amount of time. Yes, Tribbs does it during the install for you
by asking what your BBS name is etc. and with Sync you have to run the
SCFG program but with Sync there's only one screen you have to setup
(comparing the setup of Tribbs to Sync) so I don't see how it's
difficult. Personally I think that Tribbs is more un-user friendly for
the new sysop since it a) doesn't provide any links on my desktop/start
menu during the install (I know, 16bit DOS so what do you expect) and b)
I'm not sure what to run unless I read the docs. Again this is a
DOS/Windows issue but if you want to go head to head on ease, I would
say it's more intuitive for setting up a Sync site.
> Evan, there are more Hobbiest running WG and WC than not. We are
talking in
> the tens of thousands running WC alone. All of these folks can't be
> Commercial People. Here is a couple of prices.
Keep things in context. WG owners are old owners who have had their
systems for years and graduated from dial-up to telnet as the software
grew. Sure, WG has a user base of thousands, but most of these are
corporations or government sites where it really didn't matter how much
you spent on software to get a mail/file system up and running. Using
that number as a ruler to say that there are hundreds (or thousands) of
hobby sites running WG isn't quite right.
> An advantage that SL and Tribbs has is the ability to steal about
every 16
> bit door out there no matter what it's made for and do it without even
> having to resort to coding of any kind. Just tell them what kind of
door it
Sync can run anything as well as it supports most popular door formats
(maybe not as many as Tribbs or SL but certainly enough, after all how
many do you REALLY need to support?). But then if this is about
commercial/shareware software only...
> it's mind<grin>) But it should be interesting to see the outcome.
Counting
> the Windows Tribbs in, the last 3 are really in their own category and
there
> is absolutely nothing freeware that can compare or even compete with
them.
> 2 are costly but not really out of reach of most. Freeware doesn't
allow
> this level of competition or devolopment.
I'm not sure what you base this comment on? I would think a freeware bbs
(especially one with source) offers far more development than any
commercial system. With a commercial system, you're restricted to
whatever options they programmed into the system. With a freeware one
you can do whatever you want with it. For example, I wanted to convince
someone that Sync could emulate MajorBBS/WG perfectly with a little
effort and some tweaking. I got it to emulate the system 90% just by
spending a few hours tweaking the config/text/data files. I then spent a
couple more hours rewriting the chat program into a module that emulated
MajorBBS' teleconference. You cannot tell the difference now. Depending
on how configurable your commercial systems are, you can't just rip out
an entire module and replace it with a door that easily.
As for competition, what features does a BBS have to have anyways? A
message base, email, games, files. Those are the basics. Hooking email
to forward to email addresses, file libraries that connect to an FTP
server and messages that hook up to NNTP servers is a plus. Personally,
I would put Sync up against WG anyday. The only difference is the GUI
stuff (which as I've said before, really isn't that much to yap about
and has a fairly low usage count on most systems I visit) and the games.
WG games are pretty superior to doors because of the real-time
multi-player aspect but the downfall is you can't really find any games
out there now for it that are being actively developed (except MajorMUD
which is another thread and a half going into the overpricing of that).
So competition? What competition?
liB
RhythmNp
>some
>> >time... not sure why the 2 of you insist on *beating a dead horse<grin>)
>>
>> Shrug, Daryl was the one who brought up SearchLight for no apparent
>reason... I
>> think he was trying to claim it was super-powerful or something :)
>
>Don't start this crap up again, will you. Keep your barbs to yourself and
>we can have some nice conversation in here.
Odd, I wasn't aware that a statement ending in a smiley face could somehow be a
"barb"...
RhythmNp
>I
>> would hope they would put some sort of announcement on here. If they only
>ever
>> post on alt.bbs.tribbs, they only get people who were already TriBBS
>users.
>
>Evan, you didn't read the BBS areas then. I commented Tribbs as well as
>Paul B. Frank and Joe and a few others.
What "bbs areas" are you referring to, and what post/comment of yours are you
referring to?
>To be a Quality Doorgame Author, one
>would think that one would go into the WWIV, RA, RG, WC, WG, etc and let
>people know about your products as well as learn what you can do to help
>the.
Well, I do I go into the WG areas. As for the others, many of the people who
subscribe to those groups also subscribe to alt.bbs or at least alt.bbs.doors.
I think alt.bbs.doors is a much more appropriate place for my ads, rather than
crossposting into 50 other alt.bbs.* newsgroups!
>They would have equally no reason to subscribe to this one either. But they
>do.
They DO have more of a reason, since alt.bbs tends to cover a broad range of
topics. If the tribbs makers wanted NEW sysops, they'd be best off advertising
in alt.bbs instead of alt.bbs.tribbs. People who have never used / heard of
TriBBS are unlike to randomly subscribe to alt.bbs.tribbs w/ no prior
knowledge.
>Besides, there are well over 2000 Tribbs Sysops and we all get the
>information somehow. Curiousity does make us go back.
I *HIGHLY* doubt that there are 2000 active TriBBS bbs's.
> Besides, for the
>beginner, Tribbs is absolutely, if not the easiest, one of the easiest to
>get up and running in about 5 minutes and have doors running in 15. If that
>doesn't bring in new users, I don't know what will.
It could have all the features in the world, but if it never advertises outside
alt.bbs.tribbs, no one will hear about it besides people who ALREADY use
tribbs.
>Many of us don't go to these places you mentioned. Sorry, but that's just a
>fact.
1. I wasn't talking to you. I was helping Al out by listing some other places
for publicity.
2. Syops DO go to these places because I've seen ALL of them listed on
registration forms I've received for my door.
3. TheBBS.org's BBS news gets hit by a few hundred sysops a month (check the
hit counter...)
4. Hundreds/thousands of sysops use the other places I mentioned (usenet,
fidonet, dovenet, etc).
5. The goal is to advertise in a VARIETY of places to inform as many people as
possible.
So I must ask, Daryl, what the heck are you talking about?
>New Users never learn of these from us since most are for other
>people. I hope you understand that one but there have been some rough times
>for many from those folks that frequent there and visversa. We are almost 2
>warring camps. I guess that would be attributed to human nature.
Do you have a gibberish translator handy by any chance?
>> No, that's not what I said/meant, I'll clarify. I simply said that in the
>case
>> of _most_ (key phrase) *commercial BBS software* (another key phrase),
>it's
>> overpriced. I'm not saying that Searchlight, WorldGroup, WildCat etc
>should be
>> freeware, I just think they're a little bit too pricey. I guess WildCat
>isn't
>> so bad for the price, but, the Line Count upgrades still seem a bit steep.
>
>Now, you clarify. It's about time. But you did say and you meant that
>commercial software is a ripoff. That only freeware is worth the money.
No, I did NOT say or mean that, or anything even remotely like that, ever.
>> Well, I was talking about the commercial BBS software packages, meaning
>the
>> professional systems (WorldGroup, WINServer, SL Spinnaker, etc) -- the
>ones
>> that cost a few hundred bucks. I wasn't talking about hobbyist BBS
>software
>> (usually the < $100 ones that don't have web servers and whatnot), nor was
>I
>> talking about BBS add-ons (doors, etc).
>
>Evan, there are more Hobbiest running WG and WC than not. We are talking in
>the tens of thousands running WC alone. All of these folks can't be
>Commercial People.
I meant "commercial BBS software package" as in a package *produced* by a
professional company, not necessarily *run* by a company. ex... I meant
WorldGroup is a commercial package, = its produced by a software company. WWIV
is a hobbyist system, = its written by people in their spare time as a hobby.
>Tribbs changed hands
>twice since Mark had it and the newest owners are looking to compete with
>WC5/6 and WG (now that's a mouse climbing up an Elephants leg with rape on
>it's mind<grin>)
umm... yuck?
>Counting
>the Windows Tribbs in, the last 3 are really in their own category and there
>is absolutely nothing freeware that can compare or even compete with them.
>2 are costly but not really out of reach of most.
I'd say Synchronet + Apache competes pretty well, as another poster pointed out
recently...
>Freeware doesn't allow this level of competition or devolopment.
A vague blanket statement. An untrue one, too.
Al Lawrence
>>With all due respect, a *true* developer would ensure that they read all the
>>BBS Sopftware newsgroups (and subscribe to BBS software related announcement
>>lists) on a REGULAR basis, as that is where a discussions take place and
>>information is made available and announcemnts are made relative to THAT
>>particular BBS software.
>
>There are 50+ alt.bbs.* newsgroups. Reading all of them on a regular basis
>would be far too time consuming. If I did that, I wouldn't have any spare time
>to code anything, so it would be totally counter-productive...:(
50? That pertain to a specific BBS software? Did not think there were that many
different BBS software platforms...
>>There have been comments made by the new authors of TRIBBS about the *future*
>>of TriBBS, etc...
>>
>>TribBS has a following, how large or small is outside my visionary
>>capabilities
>><grin> and they go to SPECIFIC TriBBS areas for there *technical
>>nourishment*...
>
>I haven't seen any recent posts from the developers of TriBBS on alt.bbs. I
>would hope they would put some sort of announcement on here. If they only ever
>post on alt.bbs.tribbs, they only get people who were already TriBBS users.
I don't see any announcements from any BBS software developers in this
newsgroup...
>Being mentioned on TheBBS.org's BBS news ( http://archives.thebbs.org/bbsnews/
>) is key too. Its very easy to do, just email the editor. TriBBS was only
>mentioned on there ONCE recently, back in February, about needing a new beta
>pool. Had there been more recent announcements on there, a LOT more people
>would know about TriBBS, myself included.
Perhaps they will do what you are suggesting, AFTER they have their non-DOS
product ready to go.. I see no sense in advertising if the non-DOS product is
not even close to release.
Or peraps they are content with word-of-mouth... who knows...
>Recently, a lot of sysops have been finding out about my door from web
>searches... For example, try doing a search for "MUD doorgame" on google.com, a
>lot of the matches are about my door ;) And apparently if you do a general
>search for "doorgame" on yahoo/google, my other site (Worldgroup Doorgame
>Central) is the first match, cool eh? (Altho if you search for "door game" as
Sure is...
>>From what I can tell SL and ProBoard are a dead issue and have bene for some
>>time... not sure why the 2 of you insist on *beating a dead horse<grin>)
>
>Shrug, Daryl was the one who brought up SearchLight for no apparent reason... I
>think he was trying to claim it was super-powerful or something :)
Regardless of who brought what up first... the development, etc of those 2
products have been a dead issue since they were sold to their current owner!
>>Hmmm, interesting... I have no idea what kind of systems run my 16-Bit
>>products
>>since I don't ask for that information when they are registered. The 32-Bit
>>products on the other hand are easy to track since they only run on WINServer
>><grin>
>
>Well, it's definitely something to consider adding to your registration form ;)
Why? I could care less as it serves me no purpose whatsoever to know
> Its useful information to have, helps you track how your doors are doing on
>different platforms. Also shows you which ones aren't using it at all, so you
>know some new places to advertise to attempt to get those sysops to try it. Ex,
>if you find few Synchronet sysops registering, then you know to try advertising
>on DoveNet (a mainly Sync-based network). Ditto with MajorNet, WWIVNet, and so
>forth.
Based on the *feedback* I get I am sure my advertising is reaching a very LARGE
segment of the BBS population!
>>>>You get what you pay for.
>>>
>>>In the cases of most commercial BBS software, no. You *don't* get what you
>>pay
>>>for. You get ripped off.
>>
>>Not to be argumentative....
>>
>>Hmmm, so the only software that does not *rip you off* is freeware?
>
>No, that's not what I said/meant, I'll clarify. I simply said that in the case
>of _most_ (key phrase) *commercial BBS software* (another key phrase), it's
>overpriced. I'm not saying that Searchlight, WorldGroup, WildCat etc should be
>freeware, I just think they're a little bit too pricey. I guess WildCat isn't
>so bad for the price, but, the Line Count upgrades still seem a bit steep.
WILDCAT does not use line counts
Night Flyer
unlimited nodes
Synchronet takes about 15 minutes to set up, and it can also use most 16 bit
doors as well without an external program. it has its own built in fossile
driver, pkzip is included and there are about 8-10 shells so you can
customze it the way you want, not counting the Baja language that allows you
to tweek it any other way you want. It took exactly 3 minutes to set up
lord, using his documentation.
there is no comparison, synchronet is the best hobbiest BBS out there right
now.
gargoyleslanding.thebbs.org (telnet, http & ftp)
former TriBBS system, now synchronet!
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
> >Evan, you didn't read the BBS areas then. I commented Tribbs as well
as
> >Paul B. Frank and Joe and a few others.
>
> What "bbs areas" are you referring to, and what post/comment of yours are
you
> referring to?
Ask a question to avoid the answer. Al knew about Tribbs. I wonder how
many other Software Authors also knew about it. We won't really know. Just
because you didn't know about it because you only go into a couple or three
areas about BBSes doesn't mean that the others don't know about it.
> >To be a Quality Doorgame Author, one
> >would think that one would go into the WWIV, RA, RG, WC, WG, etc and let
> >people know about your products as well as learn what you can do to help
> >the.
>
> Well, I do I go into the WG areas. As for the others, many of the people
who
> subscribe to those groups also subscribe to alt.bbs or at least
alt.bbs.doors.
> I think alt.bbs.doors is a much more appropriate place for my ads, rather
than
> crossposting into 50 other alt.bbs.* newsgroups!
That is only two or three BBS areas. I see the others in most of them. If
nothing else, to keep their fingers on the ebb and tide of things.
>
> >They would have equally no reason to subscribe to this one either. But
they
> >do.
>
> They DO have more of a reason, since alt.bbs tends to cover a broad range
of
> topics. If the tribbs makers wanted NEW sysops, they'd be best off
advertising
> in alt.bbs instead of alt.bbs.tribbs. People who have never used / heard
of
> TriBBS are unlike to randomly subscribe to alt.bbs.tribbs w/ no prior
> knowledge.
Your opinion only. Even if we run other BBS Packages, we have a tendancy to
keep current with the ones that we used in the past. We don't abandon them.
In fact, many of us made the same progressions at the same time heading the
same direction. Tribbs to SL to WCWins or any other combination. You have
no idea where we may be. Many don't come in here or into alt.bbs.doors.
To get info to us, it's best to go to the alt.bbs that covers our BBS. I
doubt if any of the Sysops, old and new, have gotten on Al's case for
advertising in all the BBS Hardcore areas since his information does apply.
> >Besides, there are well over 2000 Tribbs Sysops and we all get the
> >information somehow. Curiousity does make us go back.
>
> I *HIGHLY* doubt that there are 2000 active TriBBS bbs's.
Actually, once you are a Tribbs Sysop, you will always be a Tribbs Sysop.
Much like the RG Sysops that will go back to it when the new one that they
try turns out to have a stiff learning curve, difficult to maintain and the
menu system alienates long time users. The older Sysops are bailing on one
particular BBS System for that reason and many won't bother to fire it up
now that we have had this line of discussion.
> > Besides, for the
> >beginner, Tribbs is absolutely, if not the easiest, one of the easiest to
> >get up and running in about 5 minutes and have doors running in 15. If
that
> >doesn't bring in new users, I don't know what will.
>
> It could have all the features in the world, but if it never advertises
outside
> alt.bbs.tribbs, no one will hear about it besides people who ALREADY use
> tribbs.
You don't read most of the other BBS areas. What works for you doesn't work
for everyone else. Tribbs isn't dead at all, is still supported by many and
even us WCWins people keep an eye on it since that is part of our roots. We
are talking about Sysops and not users on this one. We are a different lot
and to become one, you will have to become a different lot also.
> >Many of us don't go to these places you mentioned. Sorry, but that's
just a
> >fact.
>
> 1. I wasn't talking to you. I was helping Al out by listing some other
places
> for publicity.
You were talking about me in a public place. Al was responding to your
comments to me where he has an opinion and an area of expertise.
> 2. Syops DO go to these places because I've seen ALL of them listed on
> registration forms I've received for my door.
Some do but most don't. It's a BIG world out there and your Door is just a
part of it.
> 3. TheBBS.org's BBS news gets hit by a few hundred sysops a month (check
the
> hit counter...)
A few hundred. That's hits, not Sysops. The numbers cannot be corrolated
to actual people since many will hit it several times a day. Remember
SysopsCorner? That had several thousand a month and was the premiere BBS
site on the internet. Nothing has equaled it since.
> 4. Hundreds/thousands of sysops use the other places I mentioned (usenet,
> fidonet, dovenet, etc).
The Etc. part is the important part. If you wish to hit a Tribbs Sysop, you
go to alt.tribbs.com or some of the Tribbs related BBS Message bases. SL
has SLNet which is still very active, WC has it's own that has all but dried
up the Fido side and the Usenet side. Sysops are bailing out of many of the
traditional areas and taking their users with them. It so happens that Al
writes for WCWins and you will see his information posted on almost EVERY
WCWins system out there. You write primarily for Sync so I would suspect
that Sync systems would carry your information. Just because it isn't in
here and you haven't read it doesn't mean it's not getting out to the ones
that want to find out about it.
> 5. The goal is to advertise in a VARIETY of places to inform as many
people as
> possible.
> So I must ask, Daryl, what the heck are you talking about?
It's funny, Sysops understand as do most long term users. You haven't made
the leap of faith yet.
> >New Users never learn of these from us since most are for other
> >people. I hope you understand that one but there have been some rough
times
> >for many from those folks that frequent there and visversa. We are
almost 2
> >warring camps. I guess that would be attributed to human nature.
>
> Do you have a gibberish translator handy by any chance?
Thank you, you just made my case. Why would any sysop wish to be insulted
by a user. That would last about 2 seconds on any system that's worth it's
salt. You wish to run with the Big Dogs, you had better learn to understand
them first.
> >Now, you clarify. It's about time. But you did say and you meant that
> >commercial software is a ripoff. That only freeware is worth the money.
>
> No, I did NOT say or mean that, or anything even remotely like that, ever.
You will notice that Al read it the same way. As did many others. Nice
advertisement on your own "Comercial" BBS offering.
> >Evan, there are more Hobbiest running WG and WC than not. We are talking
in
> >the tens of thousands running WC alone. All of these folks can't be
> >Commercial People.
>
> I meant "commercial BBS software package" as in a package *produced* by a
> professional company, not necessarily *run* by a company. ex... I meant
> WorldGroup is a commercial package, = its produced by a software company.
WWIV
> is a hobbyist system, = its written by people in their spare time as a
hobby.
You specifically said that Sync is the most used Hobby BBS which is untrue
by a VERY large margin. In the circle that you run in, it's true that it is
but I find that you run in a very small circle as compared to many of us
others. Expand your circle.
> >Counting
> >the Windows Tribbs in, the last 3 are really in their own category and
there
> >is absolutely nothing freeware that can compare or even compete with
them.
> >2 are costly but not really out of reach of most.
>
> I'd say Synchronet + Apache competes pretty well, as another poster
pointed out
> recently...
Not even close. The interaction between Sync and Apache isn't seemless.
Scripting is required to make either one talk to the other through Dynamic
HTML. And even mentioning Apache, isn't that Heresy according to your past
posts?
> >Freeware doesn't allow this level of competition or devolopment.
>
> A vague blanket statement. An untrue one, too.
Until the free stuff do more than just copy the Commercial units, they will
always be behind. That statement stands for almost everything in the
business and hobby world. You can't change it, it's going to be around
longer than you or I will be. You also don't have to accept it and work to
attepmpt to make it untrue. That is part of progress. In the end,
Commercial Systems will be the leaders, Sharewares will follow and Freeware
will follow that. It's an economic fact. Besides, why isn't your Door Free
since you like Freeware so much? Feeling a little commercial yourself::))
Daryl
Daryl Hunt
"Night Flyer" <n...@here.com> wrote in message
news:99243060...@localhost.localdomain...
> Synchronet --- free 32 bit
> unlimited nodes
>
> Synchronet takes about 15 minutes to set up, and it can also use most 16
bit
> doors as well without an external program. it has its own built in fossile
> driver, pkzip is included and there are about 8-10 shells so you can
> customze it the way you want, not counting the Baja language that allows
you
> to tweek it any other way you want. It took exactly 3 minutes to set up
> lord, using his documentation.
>
> there is no comparison, synchronet is the best hobbiest BBS out there
right
> now.
>
> gargoyleslanding.thebbs.org (telnet, http & ftp)
> former TriBBS system, now synchronet!
I beleive it is for you and that is all that counts on your system. It took
you 3 whole minutes to setup Lords? Night, you must be slipping::))
On mine, I ask much more than Sync can give. I would agree that Sync would
be a good Intermediate BBS package. You are not a beginner at all. You
started out using a great Learning BBS and went on as did most of us. The
Beginner may get overwhelmed in either complications or time management on
it though. In fact, some have gone back to other BBS software for exactly
those reasons and they are seasoned Sysops. Sync is not for everyone.
Daryl
MOD
wrote:
>On 13 Jun 2001 03:58:35 GMT, rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM (RhythmNp) wrote:
>
>>>With all due respect, a *true* developer would ensure that they read all the
>>>BBS Sopftware newsgroups (and subscribe to BBS software related announcement
>>>lists) on a REGULAR basis, as that is where a discussions take place and
>>>information is made available and announcemnts are made relative to THAT
>>>particular BBS software.
>>
>>There are 50+ alt.bbs.* newsgroups. Reading all of them on a regular basis
>>would be far too time consuming. If I did that, I wouldn't have any spare time
>>to code anything, so it would be totally counter-productive...:(
>
>50? That pertain to a specific BBS software? Did not think there were that many
>different BBS software platforms...
>
74 in alt.bbs.* including alt.bbs there may be some other rogue groups
that never had a newgroup message sent, but... the newgroup archive at
ftp.isc.org only has these listed.
<pondering> maybe we should all harass our news-admins to add all of
them, go in clean 'em out of spammers, and make alt.bbs.* more
appealing to the masses <kof>
last I checked, alt.bbs.* was more spam then anything... I don't see
it as much anymore, but my server blocks most spam
alt.bbs.8th-wonder
alt.bbs.adeptsoft
alt.bbs.ads
alt.bbs.allsysop
alt.bbs.allsysup
alt.bbs.ambbs
alt.bbs.amiga.cnet
alt.bbs.amiga.trion
atl.bbs.beeline
alt.bbs.bernie-host
alt.bbs.boardwatch
alt.bbs.citadel.prism
alt.bbs.citadel
alt.bbs.da_manor
alt.bbs.doors.binaries
alt.bbs.doors.lord.binaries
alt.bbs.doors.lord
alt.bbs.doors.programming
alt.bbs.doors
alt.bbs.dreambbs
alt.bbs.elebbs
alt.bbs.excalibur
alt.bbs.falken
alt.bbs.fetus
alt.bbs.first-class
alt.bbs.gigo-gateway
alt.bbs.iniquity
alt.bbs.internet
alt.bbs.jds
alt.bbs.jolt-country
alt.bbs.kbbs
alt.bbs.lists.d
alt.bbs.lists
alt.bbs.majorbbs
alt.bbs.maxs
alt.bbs.metal
alt.bbs.mystic
alt.bbs.novaserver
alt.bbs.omnibbs
alt.bbs.pancake
alt.bbs.pcboard.ppe
alt.bbs.pcboard
alt.bbs.pcbuucp
alt.bbs.poprockit
alt.bbs.powerboard
alt.bbs.proboard
alt.bbs.public-address
alt.bbs.qmodempro
alt.bbs.ra
alt.bbs.renegade
alt.bbs.rip
alt.bbs.school
alt.bbs.screaming-tech
alt.bbs.searchlight
alt.bbs.servers.arcbbs
alt.bbs.servers.armbbs
alt.bbs.servers.rsdfs
alt.bbs.spitfire
alt.bbs.synchronet
alt.bbs.system.dragnet
alt.bbs.telefinder
alt.bbs.telegard.moderated
alt.bbs.telegard
alt.bbs.tribbs
alt.bbs.unixbbs.uniboard
alt.bbs.unixbbs
alt.bbs.uupcb
alt.bbs.vision-x
alt.bbs.waffle
alt.bbs.watergate
alt.bbs.wildcat.wccode
alt.bbs.wildcat
alt.bbs.wme
alt.bbs.wwiv
alt.bbs
alt.bbs.ZoneZero
-* The WarLorDz BBS
telnet://warlordz.darktech.org
-* NNTP Message base echo
news://warlordz.darktech.org
Al Lawrence
>>>There are 50+ alt.bbs.* newsgroups. Reading all of them on a regular basis
>>>would be far too time consuming. If I did that, I wouldn't have any spare time
>>>to code anything, so it would be totally counter-productive...:(
>>
>>50? That pertain to a specific BBS software? Did not think there were that many
>>different BBS software platforms...
>>
>
>74 in alt.bbs.* including alt.bbs there may be some other rogue groups
>that never had a newgroup message sent, but... the newgroup archive at
>ftp.isc.org only has these listed.
I was questioning the number of newsgroups, atl.bbs.?, that are for a
particular BBS software product (ie: alt.bbs.ra, alt.bbs.pcboard, etc...), Thus
RA, PCBOArd,etc can only have 1 each....
According to where I get my newsgroups there are not many.
Al Lawrence
>Your opinion only. Even if we run other BBS Packages, we have a tendancy to
>keep current with the ones that we used in the past. We don't abandon them.
>In fact, many of us made the same progressions at the same time heading the
>same direction. Tribbs to SL to WCWins or any other combination. You have
>no idea where we may be. Many don't come in here or into alt.bbs.doors.
>To get info to us, it's best to go to the alt.bbs that covers our BBS. I
>doubt if any of the Sysops, old and new, have gotten on Al's case for
>advertising in all the BBS Hardcore areas since his information does apply.
You would be surprised.... it is the jealousy factor, plain and simple. Some
get over with it some just can't wait until I advertise and then post their
usual inane, immature drivel.
RhythmNp
1. Learn to read what people actually write,
2. Learn to make some sense, and
3. Learn to stay on-topic and not discuss things that are irrelevant to a given
conversation,
I feel no need to reply to your gibberish.
RhythmNp
>many
>different BBS software platforms...
I'd say there's probably over 150+ different BBS software platforms that have
been written over the years...
Of the 74 alt.bbs.* newsgroups MOD listed, well over 1/3 were for specific
platforms. That's a LOT of newsgroups to crostpost to and read just for the
purposes of staying current with the entire bbs scene, insisting that "true"
developres need to read all of them on a regular basis is just plain
unreasonable.
>Perhaps they will do what you are suggesting, AFTER they have their non-DOS
>product ready to go.. I see no sense in advertising if the non-DOS product is
>not even close to release.
That's fine, and makes perfect sense to me. BUT, my point is, Daryl shouldn't
automatically assume that everyone should know about TriBBS being back under
development if the TriBBS guys aren't even advertising it yet.
>>Shrug, Daryl was the one who brought up SearchLight for no apparent reason...
I
>>think he was trying to claim it was super-powerful or something :)
>
>Regardless of who brought what up first... the development, etc of those 2
>products have been a dead issue since they were sold to their current owner!
Nod, Pat Clawson's anti-bbs attitude makes me want to vomit...
>>>Hmmm, interesting... I have no idea what kind of systems run my 16-Bit
products
>>>since I don't ask for that information when they are registered. The 32-Bit
>>>products on the other hand are easy to track since they only run on
WINServer
>>><grin>
>>
>>Well, it's definitely something to consider adding to your registration form
;)
>
>Why? I could care less as it serves me no purpose whatsoever to know
>Based on the *feedback* I get I am sure my advertising is reaching a very
>LARGE segment of the BBS population!
I was just trying to offer a suggestion, take it or leave it, makes no
difference to me.
>>No, that's not what I said/meant, I'll clarify. I simply said that in the
>case
>>of _most_ (key phrase) *commercial BBS software* (another key phrase), it's
>>overpriced. I'm not saying that Searchlight, WorldGroup, WildCat etc should
>be
>>freeware, I just think they're a little bit too pricey. I guess WildCat
>isn't
>>so bad for the price, but, the Line Count upgrades still seem a bit steep.
>
>WILDCAT does not use line counts
I was mainly referring to WILDCAT 5.
W/ info straight from Santronics' web site -- WC5 starts at 2 lines and then
has costly line-count upgrades for +2 lines, +8, +32, or +100. Very similar to
Worldgroup in this fashion.
WILDCAT 4 has a line-count system as well, although a bit different. There's a
10-line version, a 48-line version, and a 250-line version, all at different
prices.
So it's pretty clear WILDCAT does indeed use line counts...
RhythmNp
>places
>> for publicity.
>
>You were talking about me in a public place. Al was responding to your
>comments to me where he has an opinion and an area of expertise.
Al asked about some other places for publicity. I responded. The question had
absolutely nothing to do with YOU, daryl.
>> 2. Syops DO go to these places because I've seen ALL of them listed on
>> registration forms I've received for my door.
>
>Some do but most don't. It's a BIG world out there and your Door is just a
>part of it.
As usual you missed my point. I'm simply saying that advertising to all of
these places can help more sysops find a product, and I have the registrations
to prove it.
>> 3. TheBBS.org's BBS news gets hit by a few hundred sysops a month (check
>the
>> hit counter...)
>
>A few hundred. That's hits, not Sysops. The numbers cannot be corrolated
>to actual people since many will hit it several times a day.
You don't visit BBS news, do you?
It's a newsletter-type site. Updated once a month. People don't visit it
several times a day, it's not a links database or a constant-update site like
Wishing Well Sysops Corner, its not DESIGNED as that type of site. Simply a
monthly newsletter. The hits correlate pretty closely to sysops because people
rarely visit it multiple times a month.
>That had several thousand a month and was the premiere BBS
>site on the internet. Nothing has equaled it since.
I'd agree, but, there are still some BBS sites that get a very large number of
hits. PcMicro.com/TheBBS.org still gets a lot of activity, as does
TheDirectory.org's bbs section.
>You write primarily for Sync so I would suspect
>that Sync systems would carry your information.
As I've already stated multiple times, I don't write "primarily for Sync".
>Besides, why isn't your Door Free
>since you like Freeware so much? Feeling a little commercial yourself::))
I consider my door to be a Hobbyist project. I write it as a hobby. I charge
for it to get some added income and to keep myself motivated. If I gave it
away for free, I wouldn't be able to justify the time commitment I put into it.
I still wouldn't consider it a "commercial" product by any means though.
I have never stated that all software should be freeware, or that freeware in
general is best for anything, so don't try and put words in my mouth. I simply
said that in the case of *commercial BBS software*, the commercial packages are
getting competition from well-produced freeware packages.
RhythmNp
>>would hope they would put some sort of announcement on here. If they only
>ever
>>post on alt.bbs.tribbs, they only get people who were already TriBBS users.
>
>I don't see any announcements from any BBS software developers in this
>newsgroup...
I do. The developers of Nexus and Mysic post updated information on here
frequently. Updates about Synchronet get posted for major releases. EleBBS
occasionally. ProBoard, whenever Clawson puts out new ExpireWare releases
(yuck). Waffle gets info posted frequently.
Overall, *I* do indeed see a fair number of developers posting updates to
alt.bbs...
Al Lawrence
>>50? That pertain to a specific BBS software? Did not think there were that
>>many
>>different BBS software platforms...
>
>I'd say there's probably over 150+ different BBS software platforms that have
>been written over the years...
>
>Of the 74 alt.bbs.* newsgroups MOD listed, well over 1/3 were for specific
>platforms. That's a LOT of newsgroups to crostpost to and read just for the
>purposes of staying current with the entire bbs scene, insisting that "true"
>developres need to read all of them on a regular basis is just plain
>unreasonable.
I, for one, only deal with what I deem to be relevant and current software
platforms. The *entire* BBS scene is not that big and I believe I cover all of
them in the newgroups I read.
I don't believe I used the *true developers* terminology... and by no means did
I mean to imply that one should read all of them on a regular basis... I have a
core number of BBS software newsgroups that I read regularly and do not deal
with the *fringe* BBS software newsgroups....
>>Perhaps they will do what you are suggesting, AFTER they have their non-DOS
>>product ready to go.. I see no sense in advertising if the non-DOS product is
>>not even close to release.
>
>That's fine, and makes perfect sense to me. BUT, my point is, Daryl shouldn't
>automatically assume that everyone should know about TriBBS being back under
>development if the TriBBS guys aren't even advertising it yet.
I made no reference to Daryl in my response and that was done purposely so as
to stay out of the on going, he said she said exchnage between you and Daryl.
I would be willing to bet that more folks than you realize DO know about what
is happening with TriBBS. When Sysops read what is happening with TriBBS or any
other BBS software, they do spread the word around in their normal exchnages in
other newsgroups, FIDO areas, Door areas, etc, etc... so word does get out
quite nicely.. albeit not as much or as fast as if they were to hit every
conceiveable BBS-related newsgroup, FIDO echo, etc etc... but that is their
preference and if they are content on doing things that way, then who are we
tosay oherwise :)
>>>Shrug, Daryl was the one who brought up SearchLight for no apparent reason...
>I
>>>think he was trying to claim it was super-powerful or something :)
>>
>>Regardless of who brought what up first... the development, etc of those 2
>>products have been a dead issue since they were sold to their current owner!
>
>Nod, Pat Clawson's anti-bbs attitude makes me want to vomit...
Well I wouldn't use those words. I will say he has some strong opinions about
BBSing and Sysops in particular, which makes wonder why in the world he ever
decided to buy those 2 products from LaRosa.
>>>>Hmmm, interesting... I have no idea what kind of systems run my 16-Bit
>products
>>>>since I don't ask for that information when they are registered. The 32-Bit
>>>>products on the other hand are easy to track since they only run on
>WINServer
>>>><grin>
>>>
>>>Well, it's definitely something to consider adding to your registration form
>;)
>>
>>Why? I could care less as it serves me no purpose whatsoever to know
>>Based on the *feedback* I get I am sure my advertising is reaching a very
>>LARGE segment of the BBS population!
>
>I was just trying to offer a suggestion, take it or leave it, makes no
>difference to me.
I do appreciate the suggestion, just not somehting I see any reason to
pursue...
>>>No, that's not what I said/meant, I'll clarify. I simply said that in the
>>case
>>>of _most_ (key phrase) *commercial BBS software* (another key phrase), it's
>>>overpriced. I'm not saying that Searchlight, WorldGroup, WildCat etc should
>>be
>>>freeware, I just think they're a little bit too pricey. I guess WildCat
>>isn't
>>>so bad for the price, but, the Line Count upgrades still seem a bit steep.
>>
>>WILDCAT does not use line counts
>
>I was mainly referring to WILDCAT 5.
Then you are correct. Just trying to ensure that there is some *accuracy in
reporting*
RhythmNp
>>platforms. That's a LOT of newsgroups to crostpost to and read just for the
>>purposes of staying current with the entire bbs scene, insisting that "true"
>>developres need to read all of them on a regular basis is just plain
>>unreasonable.
>
did
>I mean to imply that one should read all of them on a regular basis...
Well, what you had posted yesterday exactly was, "With all due respect, a
*true* developer would ensure that they read all the BBS Sopftware newsgroups
(and subscribe to BBS software related announcement lists) on a REGULAR basis"
.....
>I mean to imply that one should read all of them on a regular basis... I have
a
>core number of BBS software newsgroups that I read regularly and do not deal
>with the *fringe* BBS software newsgroups....
OK, that does make more sense. Or at least, is a lot more reasonable than
reading *all* of the BBS newsgroups :)
>>Nod, Pat Clawson's anti-bbs attitude makes me want to vomit...
>
>Well I wouldn't use those words. I will say he has some strong opinions about
>BBSing and Sysops in particular, which makes wonder why in the world he ever
>decided to buy those 2 products from LaRosa.
Grin, well, that's the more politically correct way of wording it I suppose :)
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
Cutting through the crap
> >> 2. Syops DO go to these places because I've seen ALL of them listed on
> >> registration forms I've received for my door.
> As usual you missed my point. I'm simply saying that advertising to all
of
> these places can help more sysops find a product, and I have the
registrations
> to prove it.
Yes, I imagine you do have a number that satisfies you. But I visited your
site like you asked. No comment on that.
> >A few hundred. That's hits, not Sysops. The numbers cannot be
corrolated
> >to actual people since many will hit it several times a day.
>
> You don't visit BBS news, do you?
> It's a newsletter-type site. Updated once a month. People don't visit it
> several times a day, it's not a links database or a constant-update site
like
> Wishing Well Sysops Corner, its not DESIGNED as that type of site. Simply
a
> monthly newsletter. The hits correlate pretty closely to sysops because
people
> rarely visit it multiple times a month.
The counter you talk about counts visits not people. While the Newsletter
is a good thing, many of us have better resources at our disposal for our
systems. Your group may need it but the "Commercial" Systems that we both
speak about don't necessarily.
>
> >That had several thousand a month and was the premiere BBS
> >site on the internet. Nothing has equaled it since.
>
> I'd agree, but, there are still some BBS sites that get a very large
number of
> hits. PcMicro.com/TheBBS.org still gets a lot of activity, as does
> TheDirectory.org's bbs section.
PcMicro gets a ton of hits, I wouldn't think otherwise. I went there myself
a couple of times. Not for his BBS pages but for his program. BTW, I went
there from a little known site called http://www.tribbs.com Imagine that.
> >You write primarily for Sync so I would suspect
> >that Sync systems would carry your information.
>
> As I've already stated multiple times, I don't write "primarily for Sync".
Your 16 bit will run on most, yes. Your 32 bit will only run on Sync. If I
have my druthers, I will run the 32 bit anytime above the 16 bit. Since
there are a few 32 bit DoorMudds that run under 2 of my available BBS
systems..... Write it so the other 32 bit BBSes can run it and then I would
agree. But the 32 bit is proprietary.
>
> >Besides, why isn't your Door Free
> >since you like Freeware so much? Feeling a little commercial
yourself::))
>
> I consider my door to be a Hobbyist project. I write it as a hobby. I
charge
> for it to get some added income and to keep myself motivated. If I gave
it
> away for free, I wouldn't be able to justify the time commitment I put
into it.
> I still wouldn't consider it a "commercial" product by any means though.
Actually, not giving it away is a good idea. It keeps the emails down to a
dull roar primarily from those that are more likely to pay for it and
appreciate it. Free? Why does Public Transits charge anything? Collecting
the money costs more than the money brought in. It keeps the riffraff off
the system and the Vandalism to a dull roar. Same concept. But since you do
charge, it's as commercial as WWIV, WG, WC, Sunrise Software, and a host of
others. Would you agree that TRIBBS is Commercial?
>
> I have never stated that all software should be freeware, or that freeware
in
> general is best for anything, so don't try and put words in my mouth. I
simply
> said that in the case of *commercial BBS software*, the commercial
packages are
> getting competition from well-produced freeware packages.
And I stated that this is a good thing. Without Competition, all of the
software would be Freeware and we wouldn't have the quality that we enjoy.
If the Freeware didn't have the commercialware to shoot for, we would still
be using an 8 bit Dos bunch of programs. I don't condemn you for charging.
I know it's better for you to do so. But I also don't condemn the others
for doing the same thing no matter how much it costs.
Daryl
RhythmNp
>site like you asked. No comment on that.
>
You attempted to visit my site at a time my host (thebbs.org) was down, and
then incorrectly claimed most of my links were "broken". I hardly call that
visiting my site.
>> You don't visit BBS news, do you?
>> It's a newsletter-type site. Updated once a month. People don't visit it
>> several times a day, it's not a links database or a constant-update site
like
>> Wishing Well Sysops Corner, its not DESIGNED as that type of site. Simply a
>> monthly newsletter. The hits correlate pretty closely to sysops because
people
>> rarely visit it multiple times a month.
>
>The counter you talk about counts visits not people. While the Newsletter
>is a good thing, many of us have better resources at our disposal for our
>systems. Your group may need it but the "Commercial" Systems that we both
>speak about don't necessarily.
To repeat myself: Yes, the counter tracks visits, not people. But since it's
only updated monthly, the regular visitors know this and only visit once a
month. So it's not like people visit multiple times per day.
Also repeating myself, for the millionth time: I have no "group" as you keep
referring to.
>> >You write primarily for Sync so I would suspect
>> >that Sync systems would carry your information.
>>
>> As I've already stated multiple times, I don't write "primarily for Sync".
>
>Your 16 bit will run on most, yes. Your 32 bit will only run on Sync. If I
>have my druthers, I will run the 32 bit anytime above the 16 bit. Since
>there are a few 32 bit DoorMudds that run under 2 of my available BBS
>systems.....
1. I made the 16-bit version of DoorMUD long before the 32-bit version. So
DoorMUD was NEVER written "primarily for Sync". I made a 32-bit port for Sync
later because it was extremely easy to do so ( < 3 hours)
2. What other 32-bit doorgame MUDs have a feature list or game world
comparitive to mine? (I'm not asking that as a hypothetical, I'm curious what
my competition is & how it compares)
3. Why must you persistently misspell things like "MUD" (it only has 1 D) and
"LORD" (there's no s on the end)???
>Write it so the other 32 bit BBSes can run it and then I would
>agree. But the 32 bit is proprietary.
There is no 32-bit C++ doorkit that supports Door32. In order for me to make a
32-bit version of DoorMUD that supports Door32.sys, I would have to design a
new comm library from scratch. This would take hundreds of hours to do and
just doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
>But since you do
>charge, it's as commercial as WWIV, WG, WC, Sunrise Software, and a host of
>others. Would you agree that TRIBBS is Commercial?
It depends entirely on how you're defining "commercial" and in what context.
Personally, when I use the term commercial software, I use it to mean software
produced by a professional company (differing from hobbyist software --
produced by someone in their spare time). In this sense, WWIV is not
commercial software and neither is my own software.
A lot of software sold by the Shareware method is hobbyist software. This is
very different from commercial software, where the demonstration method is much
more limited. IE... WINServer is commercial software, you must pay $20 to get
a demonstration copy, it's not shareware.
>I don't condemn you for charging.
>I know it's better for you to do so. But I also don't condemn the others
>for doing the same thing no matter how much it costs.
It's a consumer's right to criticize costs that seem excessive. And of course
it's the company's right to ignore that consumer criticism if they want, too.
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
> You attempted to visit my site at a time my host (thebbs.org) was down,
and
> then incorrectly claimed most of my links were "broken". I hardly call
that
> visiting my site.
Well, I am glad you said it. Not just those but many have been down for
days on end. Join the Web.
> >The counter you talk about counts visits not people. While the
Newsletter
> >is a good thing, many of us have better resources at our disposal for our
> >systems. Your group may need it but the "Commercial" Systems that we
both
> >speak about don't necessarily.
>
> To repeat myself: Yes, the counter tracks visits, not people. But since
it's
> only updated monthly, the regular visitors know this and only visit once a
> month. So it's not like people visit multiple times per day.
To repeat myself, it's not tracking people but visits. You mean that you
don't go to pages that you have already read more than once a month? Of
course you do as do I. Sometimes we need to refresh our memory. The
Regulars will do this many times in a given month. The count is not valid.
> Also repeating myself, for the millionth time: I have no "group" as you
keep
> referring to.
Freeware versus Commercialware. You promote Freeware heavily while most of
us like good freeware but don't promote it. Notice, I said most. The
Commercialware people are the most not the loudest.
> 1. I made the 16-bit version of DoorMUD long before the 32-bit version.
So
> DoorMUD was NEVER written "primarily for Sync". I made a 32-bit port for
Sync
> later because it was extremely easy to do so ( < 3 hours)
We won't run your 16 bit. Most of us are going to 32 bit even if it's Sync.
> 2. What other 32-bit doorgame MUDs have a feature list or game world
> comparitive to mine? (I'm not asking that as a hypothetical, I'm curious
what
> my competition is & how it compares)
Don't even flatter yourself by even asking this question.
> 3. Why must you persistently misspell things like "MUD" (it only has 1 D)
and
> "LORD" (there's no s on the end)???
Is this the best you can come up with. Come on, you can do better than
this.
> There is no 32-bit C++ doorkit that supports Door32. In order for me to
make a
> 32-bit version of DoorMUD that supports Door32.sys, I would have to design
a
> new comm library from scratch. This would take hundreds of hours to do
and
> just doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
Then that makes it proprietary and a Sync only product. That isn't a ding
but a fact. You will take it as a ding of course.
> >But since you do
> >charge, it's as commercial as WWIV, WG, WC, Sunrise Software, and a host
of
> >others. Would you agree that TRIBBS is Commercial?
>
> It depends entirely on how you're defining "commercial" and in what
context.
You take money for your product? Are you supposed to pay taxes on the
moneys recieved? That, Evan, is commercial anyway you or the IRS looks at
it. Sorry, but you are selling a commercial product. Give it away and it
won't be. And please, do not admit to anything contrary to the IRS even in
here.
>
> Personally, when I use the term commercial software, I use it to mean
software
> produced by a professional company (differing from hobbyist software --
> produced by someone in their spare time). In this sense, WWIV is not
> commercial software and neither is my own software.
Both are in the legal sense of the word. You can attempt to squirrel
around, mispronounce words, rearrange the furniture but you still take money
for your product. It doesn't matter if your business is parttime or
fulltime, you work at home or in an Gigantic Office Building, building that
same cabinet and selling it makes you a commercial venture. Al Lawrence is
a Commercial Software Writer regardless whether he works at home or
otherwise. Al called his correctly.
> A lot of software sold by the Shareware method is hobbyist software. This
is
> very different from commercial software, where the demonstration method is
much
> more limited. IE... WINServer is commercial software, you must pay $20 to
get
> a demonstration copy, it's not shareware.
Sorry, but WC5 has a ton of Personal Webserver Disks floating around. They
gave it away. I have a copy myself. Does this mean that Santronics is NOT
a Commercial Software Company? By your definition, it isn't. But to the
IRS and Santronics, it is.
> >I don't condemn you for charging.
> >I know it's better for you to do so. But I also don't condemn the others
> >for doing the same thing no matter how much it costs.
>
> It's a consumer's right to criticize costs that seem excessive. And of
course
> it's the company's right to ignore that consumer criticism if they want,
too.
Did I just hear the word "Consumer"? You mean consumers actually buy your
product? You produced a Commercial Product. Don't keep harping on the
other Commercial folks for doing exactly the same thing. It's bad for your
business.
Daryl
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
> >I don't see any announcements from any BBS software developers in this
> >newsgroup...
>
> I do. The developers of Nexus and Mysic post updated information on here
> frequently. Updates about Synchronet get posted for major releases.
EleBBS
> occasionally. ProBoard, whenever Clawson puts out new ExpireWare releases
> (yuck). Waffle gets info posted frequently.
>
> Overall, *I* do indeed see a fair number of developers posting updates to
> alt.bbs...
I see mostly us two and a few others::)) And I see you posting the bulk of
the information of Sync along with a handful of others. I haven't seen ANY
other BBS Systems Ads in here at all for a VERY long time by the commercial
folks. Why is that do you thing?
I will give you a chance to answer that one.
Daryl
RhythmNp
>and
>> then incorrectly claimed most of my links were "broken". I hardly call
>that
>> visiting my site.
>
>Well, I am glad you said it. Not just those but many have been down for
>days on end. Join the Web.
Shrug, thebbs.org was down for a couple of hours.. it's working fine now, has
been for a while.
>> To repeat myself: Yes, the counter tracks visits, not people. But since
>it's
>> only updated monthly, the regular visitors know this and only visit once a
>> month. So it's not like people visit multiple times per day.
>
>To repeat myself, it's not tracking people but visits. You mean that you
>don't go to pages that you have already read more than once a month?
Not if it's a site that's only updated monthly!
Personally, I have a pretty bad memory, yet I still feel no need to re-read a
monthly newsletter a couple of times a month...
>Of
>course you do as do I. Sometimes we need to refresh our memory. The
>Regulars will do this many times in a given month. The count is not valid.
There's still no one visiting several times a day as you first claimed (why
would anyone visit several times a day, every day, for a newsletter updated
monthly??)
Yes, the actual number of visiters is lower than the hit count, but I'd
estimate there's still around 300+ unique visiters per month. You could
probably get the number of unique IP's from PcMike if you email him.
PcMicro/TheBBS news has been around for years and has quite a nice following.
>> Also repeating myself, for the millionth time: I have no "group" as you
>keep
>> referring to.
>
>Freeware versus Commercialware. You promote Freeware heavily while most of
>us like good freeware but don't promote it. Notice, I said most. The
>Commercialware people are the most not the loudest.
I would certainly NOT say that I always promote Freeware. I take everything on
a product-by-product basis. I promote Synchronet because I like it, not
because it's Freeware. Other than that, what Freeware products have I ever
promoted on here?!?
Do not try and make blind assumptions about what I do and do not promote.
>> 1. I made the 16-bit version of DoorMUD long before the 32-bit version.
>So
>> DoorMUD was NEVER written "primarily for Sync". I made a 32-bit port for
>Sync
>> later because it was extremely easy to do so ( < 3 hours)
>
>We won't run your 16 bit. Most of us are going to 32 bit even if it's Sync.
You're saying you won't ever run any 16-bit doors? That's YOUR loss, not mine.
I'd say that 99% of the existing BBS's run 16-bit doors. So don't try and
insist most sysops are only running 32-bit doors now, that's total BS.
>> 2. What other 32-bit doorgame MUDs have a feature list or game world
>> comparitive to mine? (I'm not asking that as a hypothetical, I'm curious
>what
>> my competition is & how it compares)
>
>Don't even flatter yourself by even asking this question.
Eh? It was a serious, honest question. I'm curious as to what other 32-bit
doorgame MUDs are out there, and what features they have compared to mine. You
keep talking about how there's other 32-bit MUDs you can run, so you seem to
know something about them. So I'm asking you, what features do they have, or
where can I see websites with information on them?
>> 3. Why must you persistently misspell things like "MUD" (it only has 1 D)
>and
>> "LORD" (there's no s on the end)???
>
>Is this the best you can come up with. Come on, you can do better than
>this.
Huh? I was asking a serious question -- for what reason do you repeatedly
misspell things like MUD and LORD?
>> There is no 32-bit C++ doorkit that supports Door32. In order for me to
>make a
>> 32-bit version of DoorMUD that supports Door32.sys, I would have to design
>a
>> new comm library from scratch. This would take hundreds of hours to do
>and
>> just doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
>
>Then that makes it proprietary and a Sync only product. That isn't a ding
>but a fact. You will take it as a ding of course.
No, I take it as a fact. I've repeatedly stated that the *32-bit* version of
DoorMUD is proprietary to Synchronet. I state this outright on my website and
in my door's documentation. So why exactly would I "take it as a ding, of
course"?!?
What I *DO* take as a ding is your original claim that my door is geared
primarily for Sync. *THAT* is not true, as I've already stated, I made the
16-bit version long before the 32-bit.
There's a couple reasons I eventaully made the 32-bit version:
1. A few Synchronet sysops asked about it
2. Rob Swindell gave me some info about the 32-bit Sync dev kit and asked me to
try it out
3. It was a very easy port to do, took under 3 hours.
But again, this was long after I had already had a DOS version out.
I still support both versions, and whenever I make new releases, I release for
both platforms at the same time.
>You take money for your product? Are you supposed to pay taxes on the
>moneys recieved? That, Evan, is commercial anyway you or the IRS looks at
>it. Sorry, but you are selling a commercial product. Give it away and it
>won't be. And please, do not admit to anything contrary to the IRS even in
>here.
Again, it all depends on what DEFINITION and CONTEXT of "commercial" you're
using. Spit out whatever legal terminology you want, but fact is, most people
wouldn't consider WWIV to be "commercial BBS software".
>Both are in the legal sense of the word.
But this is alt.bbs, not alt.lawyer.stupid-legal-semantics.
>You can attempt to squirrel around, mispronounce words,
Mispronounce words? Hey, you're the one adding an "s" to the end of LORD and
an extra "d" to the end of MUD.
>> A lot of software sold by the Shareware method is hobbyist software. This
>is
>> very different from commercial software, where the demonstration method is
>much
>> more limited. IE... WINServer is commercial software, you must pay $20 to
>get
>> a demonstration copy, it's not shareware.
>
>Sorry, but WC5 has a ton of Personal Webserver Disks floating around. They
>gave it away. I have a copy myself.
Go to www.santronics.com and see if there's a FREE demo of WC5 anywhere on
their site. The answer is NO. You must pay $20 to download their WC5 demo.
Granted, you get a rebate if you choose to purchase the full version, so I'm
not saying the demo is a rip-off or anything. I'm just pointing out that
there's no freely-downloadable demo currently available.
>Does this mean that Santronics is NOT
>a Commercial Software Company? By your definition, it isn't.
Umm, what? My definition said it's commercial software if it's produced by a
professional software company; Mustang definitely used to fit this definition,
and as far as I know Santronics still does as well.
>Did I just hear the word "Consumer"? You mean consumers actually buy your
>product? You produced a Commercial Product.
"Commercial product" by that definiton, but, most MUD players wouldn't consider
DoorMUD to be a "commercial MUD". A commercial MUD is a product like MajorMUD,
produced by a professional software company that depends on software sales for
income, not producing it as just a hobby. So again it all depends on what
context you're using the word "commercial".
>Don't keep harping on the
>other Commercial folks for doing exactly the same thing. It's bad for your
>business.
How and when exactly did I "harp" on the "other commercial folks"????
RhythmNp
>> >newsgroup...
>>
>> I do. The developers of Nexus and Mysic post updated information on here
>> frequently. Updates about Synchronet get posted for major releases.
>EleBBS
>> occasionally. ProBoard, whenever Clawson puts out new ExpireWare releases
>> (yuck). Waffle gets info posted frequently.
>>
>> Overall, *I* do indeed see a fair number of developers posting updates to
>> alt.bbs...
>
>I see mostly us two and a few others::)) And I see you posting the bulk of
>the information of Sync along with a handful of others. I haven't seen ANY
>other BBS Systems Ads in here at all for a VERY long time by the commercial
>folks. Why is that do you thing?
>
>I will give you a chance to answer that one.
In the BBS scene, the "commercial folks" consist of Santronics and
WorldGroupWare.
WorldGroupWare is no longer aiming WG at the BBS scene, so they have no reason
to advertise here.
As for why Santronics doesn't post in here, shrug, they might be doing the same
thing as the WG folks.
Daryl Hunt
"Al Lawrence" <a...@sunrisedoors.com> wrote in message
news:3b27b278...@nntp.atl.mediaone.net...
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:21:08 GMT, mod...@newsguy.com (MOD) wrote:
> I was questioning the number of newsgroups, atl.bbs.?, that are for a
> particular BBS software product (ie: alt.bbs.ra, alt.bbs.pcboard, etc...),
Thus
> RA, PCBOArd,etc can only have 1 each....
> According to where I get my newsgroups there are not many.
Using his own list, there are 24 actual BBS System areas including ones like
Spitfire which are pretty well defunct. I would think it could easily be
narrowed down to about 14.
> alt.bbs.elebbs
> alt.bbs.iniquity
> alt.bbs.majorbbs
> alt.bbs.mystic
> alt.bbs.powerboard
> alt.bbs.proboard
> alt.bbs.ra
> alt.bbs.renegade
> alt.bbs.searchlight
> alt.bbs.synchronet
> alt.bbs.telegard
> alt.bbs.tribbs
> alt.bbs.wildcat
> alt.bbs.wwiv
Most of these are dead but have people lurking in them. It's tradition to
have them and check them every once in awhile. Since the Shakers and Movers
have moved on, most are dead. I have a mean filter on my system that pretty
well gets rid of the spam so they appear to be empty most of the time.
These are read. I also see many other Software Authors putting in plugs in
them whether it does any good or not. I also don't see a thing wrong with
telling people what you have once in awhile (not every day or even every
week). The ones that keep on telling us over and over about their BBS or
Products get put in the filter. Who would wish to buy from a Spammer
anyway.
Al puts it in every month or so when he runs specials or whatever. This is
acceptable by my standards. Maybe not by all, but I can live with it. But
without telling us about the products, we don't know what is available if we
don't go to the same area that the Freeware People have setup. We have been
made as welcome there as a toothache. I didn't even know that Evan and a
few others in here even had software available until a few weeks ago. I
didn't see it in the Hard BBS areas in even the downloads much less in the
Message Bases. If I don't see it, it doesn't exist to me.
Sorry, Evan, but the bulk of the Sysops still operating the larger systems
don't go where the beginners go. We don't have to since we have an
elaborate support systems outside of Alt.bbs, and the pages setup by others.
If you don't get that information to us, you are in another world. In your
world, you are doing well. In ours, you don't exist..
I spend much more time in the Santronics site than I really should. But I
get the information I need and say hello to a few old hands. I even meet
them in the Tribbs area since many of us cover many different systems. As
long as it goes into an apropriate area, it's a good thing to see. Many
Support Systems have an area for NON Whatever software to be advertised. I
see Al in there quite a bit in more than one. Believe me, since he
purchased some other Software from people getting out of the business, he is
in more than I want to track. So are many others.
Daryl
RhythmNp
>few others in here even had software available until a few weeks ago. I
>didn't see it in the Hard BBS areas in even the downloads much less in the
>Message Bases. If I don't see it, it doesn't exist to me.
What exactly is a "hard BBS area"?
When I make new releases (major releases, not betas), I hit a nice range of
sites, newsgroups, networks, and message boards, plus a major doorgame file
distribution network (DDS FDN). I mostly go for doorgame-specific ones since
sysops who are looking for doors read those. The FidoNet doorgame echos seem
to get the most new sysops.
>Sorry, Evan, but the bulk of the Sysops still operating the larger systems
>don't go where the beginners go. We don't have to since we have an
>elaborate support systems outside of Alt.bbs, and the pages setup by others.
>If you don't get that information to us, you are in another world. In your
>world, you are doing well. In ours, you don't exist..
I most definitely DO exist to the WorldGroup world. When it comes to "larger
systems", existing in the WorldGroup world is good enough for me. I've seen
people reference my WG Doorgame site on usenet, majornet, even on an E-bay
listing. Do a search on yahoo.com or google.com for "doorgame" and one of my
sites is the very first match.
You can try to claim I "don't exist" as much as you want, but I don't care
about YOUR worthless opinion, Daryl Hunt.
sean....@thunderstar.net
R> it. But as for features, well, despite what he insists... the
modern
R> freeware BBS packages are finally rivaling the older commercial
R> ones :)
Damn right. :)
Later,
Sean
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Al Lawrence
>>>Of the 74 alt.bbs.* newsgroups MOD listed, well over 1/3 were for specific
>>>platforms. That's a LOT of newsgroups to crostpost to and read just for the
>>>purposes of staying current with the entire bbs scene, insisting that "true"
>>>developres need to read all of them on a regular basis is just plain
>>>unreasonable.
>>
>>I don't believe I used the *true developers* terminology... and by no means
>did
>>I mean to imply that one should read all of them on a regular basis...
>
>Well, what you had posted yesterday exactly was, "With all due respect, a
>*true* developer would ensure that they read all the BBS Sopftware newsgroups
>(and subscribe to BBS software related announcement lists) on a REGULAR basis"
>.....
Must be the old brain not functioning correctly... I stand corrected...
>>I mean to imply that one should read all of them on a regular basis... I have
>a
>>core number of BBS software newsgroups that I read regularly and do not deal
>>with the *fringe* BBS software newsgroups....
>
>OK, that does make more sense. Or at least, is a lot more reasonable than
>reading *all* of the BBS newsgroups :)
I always want to make more sense than less... glad to see I am back on
track...:)
MOD
wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:21:08 GMT, mod...@newsguy.com (MOD) wrote:
>
>>>>There are 50+ alt.bbs.* newsgroups. Reading all of them on a regular basis
>>>>would be far too time consuming. If I did that, I wouldn't have any spare time
>>>>to code anything, so it would be totally counter-productive...:(
>>>
>>>50? That pertain to a specific BBS software? Did not think there were that many
>>>different BBS software platforms...
>>>
>>
>>74 in alt.bbs.* including alt.bbs there may be some other rogue groups
>>that never had a newgroup message sent, but... the newgroup archive at
>>ftp.isc.org only has these listed.
>
>I was questioning the number of newsgroups, atl.bbs.?, that are for a
>particular BBS software product (ie: alt.bbs.ra, alt.bbs.pcboard, etc...), Thus
>RA, PCBOArd,etc can only have 1 each....
>According to where I get my newsgroups there are not many.
nod, the point of that is that is a FULL list of all viable alt.bbs.*
groups...
MOD
wrote:
>Using his own list, there are 24 actual BBS System areas including ones like
>Spitfire which are pretty well defunct. I would think it could easily be
>narrowed down to about 14.
>
<kof> my list... actually, ftp.isc.org's newgroup archive... I wasn't
making a point other then supplying a list... for most people more
then a few alt.bbs.* groups is out-of hand to read... for some reason
people feel that just because it is alt.bbs.* they can advertise their
BBS in every last group there... that's what alt.bbs.ads is there
for... I read it, I think most people who sub to alt.bbs.* would read
it... if it wasnt' for the obnoxious crosspost yer ad to every last
alt.bbs.* group... acceptable list for a BBS would at most be
alt.bbs.your software alt.bbs.applicable doors alt.bbs.ads... better
would be alt.bbs.ads, and let taglines do the talking... I don't call
the overly advertised systems... just like I don't buy from
telemarketers... I call the systems you find in tag-lines, or that
stick the ads where they belong... the others act just a tad TOO
desperate for new users....
>> alt.bbs.elebbs
>> alt.bbs.iniquity
>> alt.bbs.majorbbs
>> alt.bbs.mystic
>> alt.bbs.powerboard
>> alt.bbs.proboard
>> alt.bbs.ra
>> alt.bbs.renegade
>> alt.bbs.searchlight
>> alt.bbs.synchronet
>> alt.bbs.telegard
>> alt.bbs.tribbs
>> alt.bbs.wildcat
>> alt.bbs.wwiv
>
>Most of these are dead but have people lurking in them. It's tradition to
>have them and check them every once in awhile. Since the Shakers and Movers
>have moved on, most are dead. I have a mean filter on my system that pretty
>well gets rid of the spam so they appear to be empty most of the time.
>These are read. I also see many other Software Authors putting in plugs in
>them whether it does any good or not. I also don't see a thing wrong with
>telling people what you have once in awhile (not every day or even every
>week). The ones that keep on telling us over and over about their BBS or
>Products get put in the filter. Who would wish to buy from a Spammer
>anyway.
actually, over half of those systems are being supported.... 75% of
the systems I call are Mystic, a couple Synchro <even if Idon't like
the feel> and occasionally one of the others.... the elebbs echo may
be dead, but the mailing list isn't... I'm sure the same could be said
for many of the other systems as well...
see above for my idea of spammers... and I'll agree... if I see the
same lame ad threading on my newsreader, the thread gets ignored
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
> Shrug, thebbs.org was down for a couple of hours.. it's working fine now,
has
> been for a while.
It's down a bit much for my tastes. But it's free isn't it::))
> Not if it's a site that's only updated monthly!
> Personally, I have a pretty bad memory, yet I still feel no need to
re-read a
> monthly newsletter a couple of times a month...
What you or I do is not what others do. I don't have the need to read it,
you have the need to read it once.
> There's still no one visiting several times a day as you first claimed
(why
> would anyone visit several times a day, every day, for a newsletter
updated
> monthly??)
There are a ton of reasons. Some just like to go. I have seen, on servers,
people that go to the News Areas over and over. it's the same IP number so
it has to be the same person. Sometimes, even I go since I, too, have
failing memory::))
> Yes, the actual number of visiters is lower than the hit count, but I'd
> estimate there's still around 300+ unique visiters per month. You could
> probably get the number of unique IP's from PcMike if you email him.
> PcMicro/TheBBS news has been around for years and has quite a nice
following.
300 unique people, how on earth can one tell since most are using a Dynamic
IP number? Besides, it's not worth either of our time.
> >Freeware versus Commercialware. You promote Freeware heavily while most
of
> >us like good freeware but don't promote it. Notice, I said most. The
> >Commercialware people are the most not the loudest.
>
> I would certainly NOT say that I always promote Freeware. I take
everything on
> a product-by-product basis. I promote Synchronet because I like it, not
> because it's Freeware. Other than that, what Freeware products have I
ever
> promoted on here?!?
You blanket statements. I suggest you reread your other messages. I don't
have the time.
> Do not try and make blind assumptions about what I do and do not promote.
I don't have to. You already did that with no help from me. I don't need
to speak for you.
> >We won't run your 16 bit. Most of us are going to 32 bit even if it's
Sync.
>
> You're saying you won't ever run any 16-bit doors? That's YOUR loss, not
mine.
> I'd say that 99% of the existing BBS's run 16-bit doors. So don't try and
> insist most sysops are only running 32-bit doors now, that's total BS.
And you are the one that doesn't want me to put words in your mouth. Give
it a rest. Try it again without misquoting.
> >> 2. What other 32-bit doorgame MUDs have a feature list or game world
> >> comparitive to mine? (I'm not asking that as a hypothetical, I'm
curious
> >what
> >> my competition is & how it compares)
> >
> >Don't even flatter yourself by even asking this question.
>
> Eh? It was a serious, honest question. I'm curious as to what other
32-bit
> doorgame MUDs are out there, and what features they have compared to mine.
You
> keep talking about how there's other 32-bit MUDs you can run, so you seem
to
> know something about them. So I'm asking you, what features do they have,
or
> where can I see websites with information on them?
I already listed them. I suggest you pay attention in class. There will be
a 10 Question Test on Monday::))
> >Is this the best you can come up with. Come on, you can do better than
> >this.
>
> Huh? I was asking a serious question -- for what reason do you repeatedly
> misspell things like MUD and LORD?
That is just plain nitpicking. As for Lords, I do this out of something I
hope that many in here understand. If you don't, I suggest you ask a Clergy
Member. But that is not applicable to discuss in here, I believe.
> No, I take it as a fact. I've repeatedly stated that the *32-bit* version
of
> DoorMUD is proprietary to Synchronet. I state this outright on my website
and
> in my door's documentation. So why exactly would I "take it as a ding, of
> course"?!?
I just love this game. In order for you to agree, I have to take the dark
side. I wished you wouldn't allow me to play that game. It's not fun
anymore.
>
> What I *DO* take as a ding is your original claim that my door is geared
> primarily for Sync. *THAT* is not true, as I've already stated, I made
the
> 16-bit version long before the 32-bit.
I am saying that I suggest you join the 21st century with your Door. I
don't say you have to but the BBSes are moving onto 32 bit fast. There just
aren't enough of them to go around. There a quite a few BBS Systems that
can run them both Free and Comm.
> Again, it all depends on what DEFINITION and CONTEXT of "commercial"
you're
> using. Spit out whatever legal terminology you want, but fact is, most
people
> wouldn't consider WWIV to be "commercial BBS software".
The IRS would. Ever see the movie "Miracle on 21st Street"?
> >Both are in the legal sense of the word.
>
> But this is alt.bbs, not alt.lawyer.stupid-legal-semantics.
And this is not alt.evans.stupid-legal-semantics either.
> >You can attempt to squirrel around, mispronounce words,
>
> Mispronounce words? Hey, you're the one adding an "s" to the end of LORD
and
> an extra "d" to the end of MUD.
Petty, very petty. Let's keep this on a more civilized keel, okay.
> >Sorry, but WC5 has a ton of Personal Webserver Disks floating around.
They
> >gave it away. I have a copy myself.
>
> Go to www.santronics.com and see if there's a FREE demo of WC5 anywhere on
> their site. The answer is NO. You must pay $20 to download their WC5
demo.
> Granted, you get a rebate if you choose to purchase the full version, so
I'm
> not saying the demo is a rip-off or anything. I'm just pointing out that
> there's no freely-downloadable demo currently available.
You missed the boat on that one. Many of us grabbed our copies.
> >Does this mean that Santronics is NOT
> >a Commercial Software Company? By your definition, it isn't.
>
> Umm, what? My definition said it's commercial software if it's produced
by a
> professional software company; Mustang definitely used to fit this
definition,
> and as far as I know Santronics still does as well.
Of course it is. We both agree on that.
>
> >Did I just hear the word "Consumer"? You mean consumers actually buy
your
> >product? You produced a Commercial Product.
>
> "Commercial product" by that definiton, but, most MUD players wouldn't
consider
> DoorMUD to be a "commercial MUD". A commercial MUD is a product like
MajorMUD,
> produced by a professional software company that depends on software sales
for
> income, not producing it as just a hobby. So again it all depends on what
> context you're using the word "commercial".
It's simple, accept money for your product and that makes you commercial by
ALL Tax agencies. It's taxable as income to you just as WC5 is taxable
income to Santronics(Hector and Andrea). I am commercial by exactly the
same standards.
> >Don't keep harping on the
> >other Commercial folks for doing exactly the same thing. It's bad for
your
> >business.
>
> How and when exactly did I "harp" on the "other commercial folks"????
Although these are based on somewhat facts, it's not exactly correct for a
Software Author of any kind to comment like this. I did it to yours to let
you know how it would feel. You will see that even if you had the greatest
BBS Game in History, you shouldn't be suprised if you make no or few sales
to Tribbs, Searchlight and WCWins. BTW, Searchlight can run your 32 bit
door standing on it's head. You forgot that SL doesn't even need a Doorfile
to run the Externals but don't look to do any sales in that area. Here is
some things you printed:
-------------------------------
But anyway, you seem to have missed my point. What I was saying is, most WG
sales go to sysops who want to run MajorMud. In this market, WildCat isn't
competition for WG, since WildCat can't run MajorMud.
You call a Linux port "not a real advantage"?? Sure, most people use
Winblows... but even so, a Linux port is still a VERY good thing to have.
The
more sysops that can run a program, the better.
We weren't talking sales, we were talking *users*. Worldgroup has more
total
users. Heck, there's a large number of Worldgroup BBS's that have 30 to 50+
people online right now each, per board, at this very instant.
Sure, there's more WildCat boards than WG boards. But when you add up the
total users, WG is ahead.
Honestly, I'm hard pressed to think of a single BBS that runs TriBBS or
SearchLight, period. How many boards out there still actually run TriBBS or
SL?
>R> WildCat or WINServer in various IT magazines, PC magazines, etc.
>
>Um, both were mentioned a while back.
Then show me where. I spent 20 mins searching. Found nothing but a bad
review
in a PC Magazine. (Granted, the review was of a much older version of
WINServer, like 2 years ago)
>That's because you did a search for WILDCAT. Doing a search for WINSERVER
>should yield much better results.
No, I also did a search for WINSERVER and found *NO* matches at all. The
full
product name is WildCat Interactive Net Server which is what would be
displayed
in reviews or product mentionings anyway, so "WildCat" catches all those
matches.
Why *would* I know anything about the subject? TriBBS hasn't been
publicized
for years. Again, the majority of developers in the BBS scene wouldn't know
a
thing about the future of TriBBS.
No. Bad advice. 16-bit programs run at a snails pace on Win2k because Win2k
has no underlying DOS architecture as Win95/98/ME does. The Win2k Virtual
DOS
machine is incredibly slow, having 2 DOS windows open at once will bring a
pentium 3 to a crawl.
>The cost of $14 a month is too high? I don't think so.
Shrug, was just going by what I've heard disgruntled Wildcat sysops post on
various networks. There are a lot of WC syops who do feel that $14/month
just
for upgrades is a bit steep for what you get.
Let's see, you Insulted the Windows Users of all types, you aliened 3 BBS
Systems and so on. These are just the ones that came up with a simple
search. You may have to keep writing for Sync and WG since you aliened the
3 other lasting Commercial (and Tribbs doesn't fit your Commercial term
either), BBS Packages. Not to worry, others will write it instead.
Daryl
RhythmNp
>people that go to the News Areas over and over. it's the same IP number so
>it has to be the same person. Sometimes, even I go since I, too, have
>failing memory::))
>
Even if you knew a site was only updated monthly, you'd visit it several times
a day? That's just bizarre.
>300 unique people, how on earth can one tell since most are using a Dynamic
>IP number? Besides, it's not worth either of our time.
It's a newsletter, it's also posted to various newsgroups, discussion boards,
and networked bases. The actual number of readers is much higher than the hit
count on the website.
>> I would certainly NOT say that I always promote Freeware. I take
>everything on
>> a product-by-product basis. I promote Synchronet because I like it, not
>> because it's Freeware. Other than that, what Freeware products have I
>ever
>> promoted on here?!?
>
>You blanket statements. I suggest you reread your other messages. I don't
>have the time.
I'll ask again, besides Synchronet, what other freeware products have I ever
promoted on here???
>> >We won't run your 16 bit. Most of us are going to 32 bit even if it's
>Sync.
>>
>> You're saying you won't ever run any 16-bit doors? That's YOUR loss, not
>mine.
>> I'd say that 99% of the existing BBS's run 16-bit doors. So don't try and
>> insist most sysops are only running 32-bit doors now, that's total BS.
>
>And you are the one that doesn't want me to put words in your mouth. Give
>it a rest. Try it again without misquoting.
I'm not "putting words in your mouth". You FLAT OUT SAID "We won't run your 16
bit". What was the meaning behind this statement? Sounds like you won't run
the door just cause it's 16 bit. Which of course is ludicrous, since 99% of
sysops have no qualms with running 16-bit doors.
>> Eh? It was a serious, honest question. I'm curious as to what other 32-bit
>> doorgame MUDs are out there, and what features they have compared to mine.
You
>> keep talking about how there's other 32-bit MUDs you can run, so you seem to
>> know something about them. So I'm asking you, what features do they have,
or
>> where can I see websites with information on them?
>
>I already listed them. I suggest you pay attention in class. There will be
>a 10 Question Test on Monday::))
You listed them, but provided NO information about features or what these
programs can do, how much they cost, whether they're still supported, how many
rooms the MUDs have, etc. You've provided squat for info.
>> No, I take it as a fact. I've repeatedly stated that the *32-bit* version
>of
>> DoorMUD is proprietary to Synchronet. I state this outright on my website
>and
>> in my door's documentation. So why exactly would I "take it as a ding, of
>> course"?!?
>
>I just love this game. In order for you to agree, I have to take the dark
>side. I wished you wouldn't allow me to play that game. It's not fun
>anymore.
The above statement by you is total gibberish that makes no sense whatsoever,
in any context.
>> What I *DO* take as a ding is your original claim that my door is geared
>> primarily for Sync. *THAT* is not true, as I've already stated, I made
>the
>> 16-bit version long before the 32-bit.
>
>I am saying that I suggest you join the 21st century with your Door. I
>don't say you have to but the BBSes are moving onto 32 bit fast. There just
>aren't enough of them to go around. There a quite a few BBS Systems that
>can run them both Free and Comm.
How exactly is my door NOT in the 21st century?
>> Again, it all depends on what DEFINITION and CONTEXT of "commercial"
>you're
>> using. Spit out whatever legal terminology you want, but fact is, most
people
>> wouldn't consider WWIV to be "commercial BBS software".
>
>The IRS would. Ever see the movie "Miracle on 21st Street"?
This is not alt.irs.legalese. We're talking about things in the context of how
BBS sysops use terms, not how the IRS does.
>> >Both are in the legal sense of the word.
>>
>> But this is alt.bbs, not alt.lawyer.stupid-legal-semantics.
>
>And this is not alt.evans.stupid-legal-semantics either.
A BS comeback that doesn't answer my original point. "Legal sense of the word"
is meaningless unless you talk like a lawyer 24/7.
You can keep talking like a Lawyer if you want. Meanwhile, I'll keep talking
like a member of the BBS community.
>> Go to www.santronics.com and see if there's a FREE demo of WC5 anywhere on
>> their site. The answer is NO. You must pay $20 to download their WC5
>demo.
>> Granted, you get a rebate if you choose to purchase the full version, so
>I'm
>> not saying the demo is a rip-off or anything. I'm just pointing out that
>> there's no freely-downloadable demo currently available.
>
>You missed the boat on that one. Many of us grabbed our copies.
Where at exactly? Some old convention like ONE-BBSCON that hasn't been around
for years?
>It's simple, accept money for your product and that makes you commercial by
>ALL Tax agencies. It's taxable as income to you just as WC5 is taxable
>income to Santronics(Hector and Andrea). I am commercial by exactly the
>same standards.
Commercial to tax agencies, yes.
Commercial by most sysops' terminology? No.
Which is more relevant to this discussion, IRS or sysops termiology? I'd side
with the sysops.
>BTW, Searchlight can run your 32 bit
>door standing on it's head. You forgot that SL doesn't even need a Doorfile
>to run the Externals but don't look to do any sales in that area.
Searchlight can NOT run 32-bit Synchronet doors. If you could read C code and
look at how the Synchronet XSDK works, you'd see this. The XSDK relies upon
multiple Synchronet files for information like inter-node paging, who's online,
messaging/announcement toggles, and so forth that SL simply does not create.
The XSDK expects these files to be found, and if they're not, it aborts.
So quit it with your blatantly untrue statements. SL cannot run Synchronet
XSDK doors.
>Although these are based on somewhat facts, it's not exactly correct for a
>Software Author of any kind to comment like this. I did it to yours to let
>you know how it would feel. You will see that even if you had the greatest
>BBS Game in History, you shouldn't be suprised if you make no or few sales
>to Tribbs, Searchlight and WCWins.
> Here is some things you printed:
I'll take these on a case-by-case basis:
"But anyway, you seem to have missed my point. What I was saying is, most WG
sales go to sysops who want to run MajorMud. In this market, WildCat isn't
competition for WG, since WildCat can't run MajorMud."
This is a factual statement. It's not "harping" on WC. It's simply a fact
that when it comes to sysops who want to buy MajorMud, WC isn't competition
obviously, because WC can't run majormud. This should be common sense.
"You call a Linux port "not a real advantage"?? Sure, most people use
Winblows... but even so, a Linux port is still a VERY good thing to have. The
more sysops that can run a program, the better."
Don't try and twist this around and take it out of context, This was my
response to YOUR *harping* on Linux!
"We weren't talking sales, we were talking *users*. Worldgroup has more total
users. Heck, there's a large number of Worldgroup BBS's that have 30 to 50+
people online right now each, per board, at this very instant. Sure, there's
more WildCat boards than WG boards. But when you add up the total users, WG is
ahead."
Again, this is a FACTUAL statement, not "harping".
"Honestly, I'm hard pressed to think of a single BBS that runs TriBBS or
SearchLight, period. How many boards out there still actually run TriBBS or
SL?"
I'm STILL hard-pressed to think of boards running TriBBS and SL. I asked you
for links to some and you didn't provide any. It's a FACTUAL STATEMENT that at
the current time, few existing boards run these softwares. YOU said yourself
that you wouldn't recommend SL to anybody!!! As for TriBBS, when its new
version comes out I'm sure a lot more sysops will run it but that hasn't
happened yet.
"Um, both were mentioned a while back. Then show me where. I spent 20 mins
searching. Found nothing but a bad review in a PC Magazine. (Granted, the
review was of a much older version of WINServer, like 2 years ago)"
Again, a FACTUAL statement. I searched around various IT-related sites for
WildCat and the only thing I found was a review on ZD NET that appeared in PC
Magazine 2 years ago, and it was a negative review, this is a FACTUAL
statement, not "harping". Search on ZD yourself and you'll find their review.
"Why *would* I know anything about the subject? TriBBS hasn't been publicized
for years. Again, the majority of developers in the BBS scene wouldn't know a
thing about the future of TriBBS."
We've already established that TriBBS hasn't really been publicizing their
product besides word-of-mouth, so again, my statement was completely FACTUAL!
"No. Bad advice. 16-bit programs run at a snails pace on Win2k because Win2k
has no underlying DOS architecture as Win95/98/ME does. The Win2k Virtual DOS
machine is incredibly slow, having 2 DOS windows open at once will bring a
pentium 3 to a crawl."
1. Almost all DOS-loving Win2k users will admit that Win2k's VDM is a slow
piece of junk.
2. About the fix with CMD.EXE, I've heard conflicting reports from people about
it, so I'm not in a position to comment about how well it works (I don't run
Win2k to test it myself).
"Shrug, was just going by what I've heard disgruntled Wildcat sysops post on
various networks. There are a lot of WC syops who do feel that $14/month just
for upgrades is a bit steep for what you get."
This is a factual statement. There are WC sysops who feel that $14/month is
too steep. Disgruntled WC sysops do exist. Deal with it.
>Let's see, you Insulted the Windows Users of all types,
No. I insulted WINDOWS, not windows USERS.
*I'm* a Windows user. Thousands of Windows users insult Windows. It's not
uncommon.
>you aliened 3 BBS Systems and so on.
Hmm? "aliened" isn't a word.
>You may have to keep writing for Sync and WG
I don't have a native WG version, first off. And I write a 16-bit DOS version
for *ALL* BBS platforms, and a 32-bit Win version for Synchronet. I WOULD make
a door32-compliant version *IF* a C++ doorkit supporting door32 ever comes out.
I'm NOT going to spend hundreds of hours writing my own doorkit just to add
door32 support, that's simply an unreasonable request.
>since you aliened the
>3 other lasting Commercial (and Tribbs doesn't fit your Commercial term
>either), BBS Packages. Not to worry, others will write it instead.
How is SearchLight a "lasting" commercial BBS package? Again, point out some
systems that still run it. Sorry if you call this "harping" but it's a FACT
that SL is dead, dead, dead. You even said yourself you wouldn't recommend SL
to anybody.
Others will write it instead? Good for them. When a doorgame MUD comes out
that rivals DoorMUD in features and cost, good, you can laugh at me then. But
that hasn't happened yet. And UNTIL that happens, none of your threats have ANY
impact on me whatsoever.
Besides, Daryl, why is everything with you always about MONEY? I didn't write
DoorMUD for MONEY. I wrote it to provide a new game for the BBS scene. I
don't consider anyone to be my "customers", nor do I care about losing
"business" to competitors. I'm NOT in this for money, I'm in it because I
enjoy it.
I speak my mind here. I'm not concerned with losing "business" or "customers".
I'm not going to silence my views out of fear of "aliening" people. This is
a public forum, I'll say what I wish. And if some sysops don't want to run my
software based on things I say in here, so be it.
As long as there's just ONE sysop out there who enjoys my software, I'll keep
supporting my door, and I'll still be happy. Sales are not an issue to me. I
don't write this software for a COMMERCIAL reason, get it?
Bil Simser
news:D8eW6.283905$oc7.18...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
>
> > Eh? It was a serious, honest question. I'm curious as to what
other 32-bit
> > doorgame MUDs are out there, and what features they have compared to
mine. You
> > keep talking about how there's other 32-bit MUDs you can run, so you
seem to
> > know something about them. So I'm asking you, what features do they
have, or
> > where can I see websites with information on them?
>
> I already listed them. I suggest you pay attention in class. There
will be
> a 10 Question Test on Monday::))
Maybe I'm a little daft but I don't see this list. I checked through
this thread for all the messages Daryl wrote, but can't find them. I
would like to know what they are as well. Being a software author, I
generally find out what's out there so I don't go writing
doors/applications that are in direct competition with someone else
(unless their product is horrible and I could do a better job). So I'd
like to see this list what's what's available (32bit or not).
liB
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
news:20010614235936...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> >I already listed them. I suggest you pay attention in class. There will
be
> >a 10 Question Test on Monday::))
>
> You listed them, but provided NO information about features or what these
> programs can do, how much they cost, whether they're still supported, how
many
> rooms the MUDs have, etc. You've provided squat for info.
Don't expect me to do your reading for you. Come On, you should be quite
aware what the competition is out there, not me. It's absurd that I should
even have to list them.
> You can keep talking like a Lawyer if you want. Meanwhile, I'll keep
talking
> like a member of the BBS community.
What community are you talking about? I am part of the BBS Community but a
different one than you are obviously. But there are different parts of each
world. I am aware of yours but you aren't of mine.
> >You missed the boat on that one. Many of us grabbed our copies.
>
> Where at exactly? Some old convention like ONE-BBSCON that hasn't been
around
> for years?
You know exactly nothing of WCWins. Why do you torture yourself like this
making these statements. You aren't going to sell too many DoorMudds
(notice 2 ds) to the WC crowd doing this. It shows that you haven't even
tried a copy at all. No wonder your 32 bit won't run under WCWins. Spend
the 149 bucks and get a copy will you.
> Commercial to tax agencies, yes.
> Commercial by most sysops' terminology? No.
Kid, you ain't no Sysops.
> Which is more relevant to this discussion, IRS or sysops termiology? I'd
side
> with the sysops.
Again, you ain't no Sysops and never were.
> >BTW, Searchlight can run your 32 bit
> >door standing on it's head. You forgot that SL doesn't even need a
Doorfile
> >to run the Externals but don't look to do any sales in that area.
>
> Searchlight can NOT run 32-bit Synchronet doors. If you could read C code
and
> look at how the Synchronet XSDK works, you'd see this. The XSDK relies
upon
> multiple Synchronet files for information like inter-node paging, who's
online,
> messaging/announcement toggles, and so forth that SL simply does not
create.
> The XSDK expects these files to be found, and if they're not, it aborts.
> So quit it with your blatantly untrue statements. SL cannot run
Synchronet
> XSDK doors.
One question, can it run freestanding in local mode?
> >Although these are based on somewhat facts, it's not exactly correct for
a
> >Software Author of any kind to comment like this.
> > Here is some things you printed:
>
> I'll take these on a case-by-case basis:
>
> "But anyway, you seem to have missed my point. What I was saying is, most
WG
> sales go to sysops who want to run MajorMud. In this market, WildCat
isn't
> competition for WG, since WildCat can't run MajorMud."
You slammed WCWins. Plain and simple. WC has it's own Muddds (notice 3 Ds
this time) written specifically for it. So it can't run MajorMudd. So
What. How about get off the fact that only you and Major can write a
DoorMudd that can run under a BBS. That is just plain Arrogant.
> This is a factual statement. It's not "harping" on WC. It's simply a
fact
> that when it comes to sysops who want to buy MajorMud, WC isn't
competition
> obviously, because WC can't run majormud. This should be common sense.
Again, so what? Who cares. MajorMud isn't the only product on the face of
the Earth. Do your research.
> "You call a Linux port "not a real advantage"?? Sure, most people use
> Winblows... but even so, a Linux port is still a VERY good thing to have.
The
> more sysops that can run a program, the better."
>
> Don't try and twist this around and take it out of context, This was my
> response to YOUR *harping* on Linux!
Wrong answer, kiddo. I can read it word for word. You slammed Windows of
all types. Most still run Windows. Oh Oh, there goes some more sales down
the tubes. Learn anything yet?
> "We weren't talking sales, we were talking *users*. Worldgroup has more
total
> users. Heck, there's a large number of Worldgroup BBS's that have 30 to
50+
> people online right now each, per board, at this very instant. Sure,
there's
> more WildCat boards than WG boards. But when you add up the total users,
WG is
> ahead."
>
> Again, this is a FACTUAL statement, not "harping".
Not even close. I went onto some WG boards and they were just as sad as
some of the WCWins systems. There are WCWins that have just as many as the
WGs do and there are more WCWins out there. WG has slowly being replaced by
Inet Servers since the price is lower. Even Linux has thrown it's hat into
that ring. Why would I run either WCWins OR WG on a Sun Utlra Sparc system?
Why would I run Windows, OS2 or Linux? Welcome to the big leagues. You
facts are flawed with fantasy.
>
> "Honestly, I'm hard pressed to think of a single BBS that runs TriBBS or
> SearchLight, period. How many boards out there still actually run TriBBS
or
> SL?"
>
> I'm STILL hard-pressed to think of boards running TriBBS and SL. I asked
you
> for links to some and you didn't provide any. It's a FACTUAL STATEMENT
that at
> the current time, few existing boards run these softwares. YOU said
yourself
> that you wouldn't recommend SL to anybody!!! As for TriBBS, when its new
> version comes out I'm sure a lot more sysops will run it but that hasn't
> happened yet.
Do your own homework kid. As for recommending SL, I wouldn't right now.
Let a couple of programmers get ahold of it like Joe and Frank have with
Tribbs and things could happen quite fast. Considering that the whole
package consists of SL and Spinaker. That is a hard team to go after once
it gets back into devolopment. And don't look for it to ever be freeware
maybe better priced.
> "Um, both were mentioned a while back. Then show me where. I spent 20
mins
> searching. Found nothing but a bad review in a PC Magazine. (Granted, the
> review was of a much older version of WINServer, like 2 years ago)"
>
> Again, a FACTUAL statement. I searched around various IT-related sites
for
> WildCat and the only thing I found was a review on ZD NET that appeared in
PC
> Magazine 2 years ago, and it was a negative review, this is a FACTUAL
> statement, not "harping". Search on ZD yourself and you'll find their
review.
20 minutes, you spend more than that typing these silly answers.
> "Why *would* I know anything about the subject? TriBBS hasn't been
publicized
> for years. Again, the majority of developers in the BBS scene wouldn't
know a
> thing about the future of TriBBS."
>
> We've already established that TriBBS hasn't really been publicizing their
> product besides word-of-mouth, so again, my statement was completely
FACTUAL!
In your world only and I find your world quite narrow. Just because we
don't run in your circles, doesn't mean that it's not well known by those
that will pay for it. You won't pay for it otherwise you would have a copy
of a Community WCWins Server/BBS to test your stuff out on. I don't expect
you to go where paying customers go.
> "No. Bad advice. 16-bit programs run at a snails pace on Win2k because
Win2k
> has no underlying DOS architecture as Win95/98/ME does. The Win2k
Virtual DOS
> machine is incredibly slow, having 2 DOS windows open at once will bring a
> pentium 3 to a crawl."
>
> 1. Almost all DOS-loving Win2k users will admit that Win2k's VDM is a slow
> piece of junk.
> 2. About the fix with CMD.EXE, I've heard conflicting reports from people
about
> it, so I'm not in a position to comment about how well it works (I don't
run
> Win2k to test it myself).
That was your comment. Actually, my NT unit runs circles around my Win98
and ME units in 32 bit AND 16 bit mode. Those people, like you, only know
what the rumor mill says and that is by WinBloze Haters from way back. You
can't run it properly or set it up correctly so that makes it bad. No, that
just makes you a bad choice to use Windows for anything other than playing
Quake which NT and 2000 does much better than the Windows you currently run.
But you would have to buy it since it's not freeware and never will be.
What ever made you chunk down the change for a BABY Wins OS in the first
place?
> "Shrug, was just going by what I've heard disgruntled Wildcat sysops post
on
> various networks. There are a lot of WC syops who do feel that $14/month
just
> for upgrades is a bit steep for what you get."
>
> This is a factual statement. There are WC sysops who feel that $14/month
is
> too steep. Disgruntled WC sysops do exist. Deal with it.
There are those that want it free like you do. If you really wished to do
the work of a REAL Programmer for BBSes, you would have a copy of WCWins and
an NT machine dual booted to Linux laying around. Hey, they can share the
file areas. One of my NT4 machines is also a Redhat Linux Machine. Many of
the 16 bit Doors run under either one.
> >Let's see, you Insulted the Windows Users of all types,
>
> No. I insulted WINDOWS, not windows USERS.
> *I'm* a Windows user. Thousands of Windows users insult Windows. It's
not
> uncommon.
Programmers that wish to sell to the public don't. Scratch a few more sales.
> >You may have to keep writing for Sync and WG
>
> I don't have a native WG version, first off. And I write a 16-bit DOS
version
> for *ALL* BBS platforms, and a 32-bit Win version for Synchronet. I WOULD
make
> a door32-compliant version *IF* a C++ doorkit supporting door32 ever comes
out.
> I'm NOT going to spend hundreds of hours writing my own doorkit just to
add
> door32 support, that's simply an unreasonable request.
Okay, playtime is over. Check with Jimmy Rose. He has some things you may
want to look at.
> How is SearchLight a "lasting" commercial BBS package? Again, point out
some
> systems that still run it. Sorry if you call this "harping" but it's a
FACT
> that SL is dead, dead, dead. You even said yourself you wouldn't
recommend SL
> to anybody.
Not at this time but it still is available and runs quite well. Look for
Clawson to unload it to a programmer or two when he gets worried that it's
worth is close to nothing. I know of a few that would like to have it but
not at Clawsons price. The price will come down sooner or later.
Searchlight.com had the same problem. Searchlight.com is no more and
Telegrafix is soon to shut their site down as per Pat Clawson. After that,
Spinaker and SL will probably be sold for scrap.
>
> Others will write it instead? Good for them. When a doorgame MUD comes
out
> that rivals DoorMUD in features and cost, good, you can laugh at me then.
But
> that hasn't happened yet. And UNTIL that happens, none of your threats
have ANY
> impact on me whatsoever.
Since you don't do your homework and can't run those that are out there,
your comments are absurd and arrogant. WC already has it. Threats they
aren't, just facts. Right now, the bulk of the sales of programs go to
WCWins. Notice the amount of Writers that went that direction. WG and WC
people spend money. You don't.
> Besides, Daryl, why is everything with you always about MONEY? I didn't
write
> DoorMUD for MONEY. I wrote it to provide a new game for the BBS scene. I
> don't consider anyone to be my "customers", nor do I care about losing
> "business" to competitors. I'm NOT in this for money, I'm in it because I
> enjoy it.
I believe you on this one. And I think you did fine. But don't condemn the
others that are out there. They exist but you need to get into the WC scene
to see what WE have. We have it all pretty much as does WG. In fact, I can
say that WC has more available to it than WG has these days. 5 years ago,
you were correct. WG was the MONSTER. Now, it's got a mate that is in hard
development in the System as well as the addons. 5 years is a long time in
Computer time.
> I speak my mind here. I'm not concerned with losing "business" or
"customers".
> I'm not going to silence my views out of fear of "aliening" people.
This is
> a public forum, I'll say what I wish. And if some sysops don't want to
run my
> software based on things I say in here, so be it.
Then allow me to do the same without the sniping. I am pretty good at it
also don't you think?::))
> As long as there's just ONE sysop out there who enjoys my software, I'll
keep
> supporting my door, and I'll still be happy. Sales are not an issue to
me. I
> don't write this software for a COMMERCIAL reason, get it?
Noper, I don't. You still are commercial<rasberry>. If you aren't, give it
away. But that opens a whole other can of worms that I don't think you wish
to deal with.
Now, allow me to tell how many WG and WC Sysops have gone to becoming
Providers using alternate means and I will allow you to say whaterver you
wish as long as it's not sniping.. And that is a valid BBS Discussion.
Daryl
Daryl Hunt
"Bil Simser" <bsi...@home.com> wrote in message
news:9OgW6.152490$Ub.17...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com...
> > I already listed them. I suggest you pay attention in class. There
> will be
> > a 10 Question Test on Monday::))
>
> Maybe I'm a little daft but I don't see this list. I checked through
> this thread for all the messages Daryl wrote, but can't find them. I
> would like to know what they are as well. Being a software author, I
> generally find out what's out there so I don't go writing
> doors/applications that are in direct competition with someone else
> (unless their product is horrible and I could do a better job). So I'd
> like to see this list what's what's available (32bit or not).
Bill, go the Pricipals office::)) If you have access to
http://www.santronics.com and can enter their support area, you will find a
few in there. The won't run freestanding since they are WCX. That isn't
all of them of course. There is no way I wish to spend a ton of time
researching it. If you don't have access, talk to almost any WCWins Sysop
that runs a large system. If they don't know themselves, they can certainly
find out. And I hope you do throw your hat in this ring. The more the
merrier.
Daryl
Bil Simser
>
> "Bil Simser" <bsi...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:9OgW6.152490$Ub.17...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com...
>
> http://www.santronics.com and can enter their support area, you will
find a
> few in there. The won't run freestanding since they are WCX. That
isn't
Thanks however there are a few issues with their site (I know, you're
not the author but I thought I'd point them out here).
1. If you go to their support page to logon the BBS, there's a telnet
link yet it takes you to the BBS which is a closed system and promptly
tosses you off. Not my idea of providing a looksee at anything really.
Grant you, it's for their support BBS and I'm not a client but still,
why bother to advertise/link it on the website if you don't allow people
to enter it? Even WG lets you create an account for looking around.
2. I didn't see very many MUDs listed. There was one text game listed
but not really a MUD per se. The majority of the Winserver doors are all
by Sunrise. There were a few MUD like games listed with them but I'm not
sure what they're like as Sunrise doesn't say much about them.
I downloaded the demo system to be able to take a look at these modules
(and the system overall). The pricing isn't much different than WG
(maybe a little cheaper) but perhaps they're a little more involved with
development and keeping things up to date. However, another proprietary
system to write for as the SDK is a separate purchase and doesn't look
like you can just write a regular door for the system (however I might
be wrong here but not sure how their architecture works, but anyone who
offers an SDK for purchase usually means they don't normally run regular
doors).
> find out. And I hope you do throw your hat in this ring. The more
the
> merrier.
It's more of returning to the ring. I wrote doors back in the 80s and
MajorBBS/WG modules but have been out of it for awhile. I'm now just
rebuilding old products for the new systems and have started testing a
new door on Dreamvision BBS (http://dreamvision.dyndns.org/).
liB
Daryl Hunt
> Thanks however there are a few issues with their site (I know, you're
> not the author but I thought I'd point them out here).
I really can't make a judgement on anything for Santronics. I may agree or
disagree but it's a personal opinion only
>
> 1. If you go to their support page to logon the BBS, there's a telnet
> link yet it takes you to the BBS which is a closed system and promptly
> tosses you off. Not my idea of providing a looksee at anything really.
> Grant you, it's for their support BBS and I'm not a client but still,
> why bother to advertise/link it on the website if you don't allow people
> to enter it? Even WG lets you create an account for looking around.
It was setup originally that way by Mustang. No reason why except that the
riffraff was kept out that was causing trouble. I don't think you are that
but there are plenty that was around. WC5 upset the applecart.
> 2. I didn't see very many MUDs listed. There was one text game listed
> but not really a MUD per se. The majority of the Winserver doors are all
> by Sunrise. There were a few MUD like games listed with them but I'm not
> sure what they're like as Sunrise doesn't say much about them.
I am not that familiar with them either. I, personally, don't care for Muds
so I don't run them.
But here is a couple that are not written by AL. I wasn't aware that A. L.
had a Mud at all.
1. Author: Chris Serres WildMud - 32 Bit Wildcat 5.0 Software If your
WinServer has an Internet Connection, you may use this Beta Software to
connect into our Multi-User Dungeon. All of your users can play with as many
characters as they like, there are no limitations. This MUD is completely
configurable, unlike Major Mud, New Weapons, Armours, Homes w/
descriptions, anything you like can be built from scratch and added into the
game. This is what WinServer users have been waiting for. Just add this
wildmud.wcx from any menu on your system. If you have your WinServer on the
Net, all of your users will be able to connect in.
2. Author: Paul Klingler
This is a partial re-write of the conversion of mud software written for
version 4.0. A couple of minor bugs were corrected
which created complications with the file names. This will fix the file open
error.
3. Author: Pete Nelson
ZippyMUD - Run an Internet-style MUD on your Wildcat v4.x BBS. Includes
source code for Wildcat v4.01. FREE!
> I downloaded the demo system to be able to take a look at these modules
> (and the system overall). The pricing isn't much different than WG
> (maybe a little cheaper) but perhaps they're a little more involved with
> development and keeping things up to date. However, another proprietary
> system to write for as the SDK is a separate purchase and doesn't look
> like you can just write a regular door for the system (however I might
> be wrong here but not sure how their architecture works, but anyone who
> offers an SDK for purchase usually means they don't normally run regular
> doors).
The system does accept normal Externals as well.
> It's more of returning to the ring. I wrote doors back in the 80s and
> MajorBBS/WG modules but have been out of it for awhile. I'm now just
> rebuilding old products for the new systems and have started testing a
> new door on Dreamvision BBS (http://dreamvision.dyndns.org/).
Interesting place you have there. I know that others don't think so but
there a ton of 16 bit, WG and WCX stuff out there. It would be nice to have
more 32 bit rewrites of some of the old stuff that will run in a 32 bit
window that is not proprietary.
Daryl
Al Lawrence
>> link yet it takes you to the BBS which is a closed system and promptly
>> tosses you off. Not my idea of providing a looksee at anything really.
>> Grant you, it's for their support BBS and I'm not a client but still,
>> why bother to advertise/link it on the website if you don't allow people
>> to enter it? Even WG lets you create an account for looking around.
I might suggest that you contact andrea...@santronics.com and let her know
of your concern/desire and perhaps she can help or at the very least provide
some reasoning for not allowing a *looksee*.
>> 2. I didn't see very many MUDs listed. There was one text game listed
>> but not really a MUD per se. The majority of the Winserver doors are all
>> by Sunrise. There were a few MUD like games listed with them but I'm not
>> sure what they're like as Sunrise doesn't say much about them.
Sunrise Door Software does not have a Mud(d) game as part of their product
line!
>I am not that familiar with them either. I, personally, don't care for Muds
>so I don't run them.
>
>But here is a couple that are not written by AL. I wasn't aware that A. L.
>had a Mud at all.
Psssst, he doesn't.
Bil Simser
>
> But here is a couple that are not written by AL. I wasn't aware that
A. L.
> had a Mud at all.
Thanks for the info but the only one I could find was ZippyMUD. The
other two were nowhere to be seen on the Santronics site and doing a
search for them or their authors on the net turned up nothing. Just
wondering which hat you pulled those out of?
> The system does accept normal Externals as well.
Yes, but is it like a WG setup where you have to have an external system
to handle it (ala Ghost or a doorserver) or can it nativelly run 16bit
DOS doors? (I know, I can setup the software and find out myself... but
if you know...)
> > MajorBBS/WG modules but have been out of it for awhile. I'm now just
> > rebuilding old products for the new systems and have started testing
a
> > new door on Dreamvision BBS (http://dreamvision.dyndns.org/).
>
> Interesting place you have there. I know that others don't think so
but
> there a ton of 16 bit, WG and WCX stuff out there. It would be nice
to have
> more 32 bit rewrites of some of the old stuff that will run in a 32
bit
> window that is not proprietary.
Well first off, it's not my BBS. They're just running the door for me. I
haven't decided if I'm going to have a permant site setup. If I do I
have to run it on my own system at home and the only machine free here
is a development one, which goes up and down like a yo-yo sometime. The
plan though is to revive some of my old doors, perhaps build some new
ones and get some new 32bit versions of doors out there. Just a hobby
thing though as I'm quite comfortable with my day job, so this is just
when I have some time (and for me, that's the 8+ hours of coding I do
between work, I'm a bit of sponge that way). Sleep is just an
inconvenience ;)
liB
RhythmNp
>> programs can do, how much they cost, whether they're still supported, how
>many
>> rooms the MUDs have, etc. You've provided squat for info.
>
>Don't expect me to do your reading for you. Come On, you should be quite
>aware what the competition is out there, not me. It's absurd that I should
>even have to list them.
In other words, you know absolutely nothing about the MUDs you listed, you have
no web site references for them, you have no idea if they're still supported,
you have no idea if ANYONE out there actually plays them. So you're in no
position to say these things are even competition for me.
>You know exactly nothing of WCWins. Why do you torture yourself like this
>making these statements. You aren't going to sell too many DoorMudds
>(notice 2 ds) to the WC crowd doing this.
I've already stated, I could care less about "sales".
> It shows that you haven't even tried a copy at all.
I don't like WildCat's interface. Period. I have no desire to download a demo
of it, and especially no desire to pay $20 just to get a demo of it.
>No wonder your 32 bit won't run under WCWins.
Good god man, how ignorant are you?
It won't run on WCWins because it's made using the Synchronet XSDK.
In order to make a WcWins port I'd need to spend over $300 in a WC5 reg, a line
count upgrade, and a WC dev kit... this is NOT worthwhile to me especially
considering the number of hours it would take to learn the dev kit.
>Spend the 149 bucks and get a copy will you.
I don't like WildCat, so why should I buy it?
>Kid, you ain't no Sysops.
Kid, you ain't got no brain in your head.
>> Which is more relevant to this discussion, IRS or sysops termiology? I'd
>side
>> with the sysops.
>
>Again, you ain't no Sysops and never were.
I've already countered this one about 300 times, thanks, please try again.
>> Searchlight can NOT run 32-bit Synchronet doors. If you could read C code
and
>> look at how the Synchronet XSDK works, you'd see this. The XSDK relies upon
>> multiple Synchronet files for information like inter-node paging, who's
online,
>> messaging/announcement toggles, and so forth that SL simply does not create.
>> The XSDK expects these files to be found, and if they're not, it aborts.
>> So quit it with your blatantly untrue statements. SL cannot run Synchronet
>> XSDK doors.
>
>One question, can it run freestanding in local mode?
NO. Synchronet XSDK doors run *ONLY ON SYNCHRONET*, they don't even run in
freestanding local mode. There is no way that SearchLight can run it, emulate
it, or get it to do anything.
Get your facts straight before INCORRECTLY insisting that Searchlight can run
Synchronet XSDK proprietary doors.
>You slammed WCWins. Plain and simple. WC has it's own Muddds (notice 3 Ds
>this time) written specifically for it. So it can't run MajorMudd. So
>What. How about get off the fact that only you and Major can write a
>DoorMudd that can run under a BBS. That is just plain Arrogant.
The WCWins MUDs are NOTHING compared to MajorMud in terms of popularity. You
don't really know anything about MajorMud, do you? People pay $5/mo, $10/mo,
even $15+/mo just to play MajorMud. And they do this with multiple accounts,
some people pay over $100/mo just to get their MajorMud fix. Nothing WildCat
has can even compare.
At this very moment there are over 200 WG boards dedicated just to MajorMud,
each with an average of 10-30+ people online at any given time playing
MajorMud. The larger ones have 100+ people online at all times, playing
MajorMud. MajorMud is WorldGroup's "killer app" and is the main thing keeping
it afloat right now. WildCat does NOT have any MUD-style game capable of
competing with MajorMud. Before you make ANY other statements on this issue,
you should do some research into the MajorMud scene. Start at
http://www.mudcentral.com
>> This is a factual statement. It's not "harping" on WC. It's simply a
>fact
>> that when it comes to sysops who want to buy MajorMud, WC isn't
>competition
>> obviously, because WC can't run majormud. This should be common sense.
>
>Again, so what? Who cares. MajorMud isn't the only product on the face of
>the Earth. Do your research.
If you did YOUR research you'd see that the WC MUDs don't come anywhere NEAR
majormud, not even close, not even on the radar.
>Wrong answer, kiddo. I can read it word for word. You slammed Windows of
>all types. Most still run Windows. Oh Oh, there goes some more sales down
>the tubes. Learn anything yet?
1. For the millionth time, I could care less about "sales".
2. EVERYONE bashes on Windows in this day and age. Heck, one of my friends
works for Microsoft and HE jokes around about Windows' inherrent suckiness all
the time too.
>Not even close. I went onto some WG boards and they were just as sad as
>some of the WCWins systems.
Which WG boards did you go on?
>There are WCWins that have just as many as the
>WGs do and there are more WCWins out there.
The average number of people online on any given WG board is much higher than
on any given WC5 board. Most of the "average" WG boards have 10-30 people
online (on the bbs side, not on an ISP side) at all times, again, due to
majormud.
>WG has slowly being replaced by
>Inet Servers since the price is lower.
Inet servers aren't replacing MajorMud. That's the main reason people buy WG
these days.
>Even Linux has thrown it's hat into
>that ring. Why would I run either WCWins OR WG on a Sun Utlra Sparc system?
>Why would I run Windows, OS2 or Linux? Welcome to the big leagues. You
>facts are flawed with fantasy.
We're talking about BBS's here, not internet servers. Nothing you just said
above is relevant to what we were discussing.
You seem to have a major problem with the concept of "staying on topic".
>Do your own homework kid. As for recommending SL, I wouldn't right now.
>Let a couple of programmers get ahold of it like Joe and Frank have with
>Tribbs and things could happen quite fast. Considering that the whole
>package consists of SL and Spinaker. That is a hard team to go after once
>it gets back into devolopment.
*IF* SL goes back into development, cool. But that simply HAS NOT HAPPENED.
So your statements are irrelevant.
>And don't look for it to ever be freeware
>maybe better priced.
Why WOULD I look for it to ever be freeware?
You seem to think I'm some sort of freeware-nazi, when in fact that's far from
the case.
>20 minutes, you spend more than that typing these silly answers.
These posts take me about 5 minutes each, tops. Deflating your arguments is
easy stuff.
>You won't pay for it otherwise you would have a copy
>of a Community WCWins Server/BBS to test your stuff out on. I don't expect
>you to go where paying customers go.
As I already said I'd have to shell out over $300 and probably over 100 hours
of work to make a WCWins native version. Not worthwhile considering I don't
even like the look/feel/interface of WC.
>That was your comment. Actually, my NT unit runs circles around my Win98
>and ME units in 32 bit AND 16 bit mode. Those people, like you, only know
>what the rumor mill says and that is by WinBloze Haters from way back.
I got my information from Robert Swindell and several of his beta testers, all
of whom report numerous problems getting Win2k to work efficiently with
DOS-related programs on multiple nodes at once. This is not a "rumor mill",
its development and testing of a software platform.
>You can't run it properly or set it up correctly so that makes it bad.
Hey, you're the one who was harassing John Pritchett because YOU couldn't
install TWGS properly.
>There are those that want it free like you do.
Moron. I don't "want it free" and I've never said anything like that. I don't
see why you keep insisting I only support freeware, this is just a FABRICATION
of your insane mind. The only freeware product I've ever promoted on here is
Synchronet.
> If you really wished to do
>the work of a REAL Programmer for BBSes, you would have a copy of WCWins and
>an NT machine dual booted to Linux laying around.
Why, pray tell, would I have to own a copy of WCWins to be a "real" programmer?
>> No. I insulted WINDOWS, not windows USERS.
>> *I'm* a Windows user. Thousands of Windows users insult Windows. It's
>not
>> uncommon.
>
>Programmers that wish to sell to the public don't. Scratch a few more sales.
Sales? Who cares? For the millionth time, not me.
Doorgame programming is a HOBBY for me, I am not concerned with "Sales" and
will not silence my views for the sake of saving "sales".
>> I don't have a native WG version, first off. And I write a 16-bit DOS
>version
>> for *ALL* BBS platforms, and a 32-bit Win version for Synchronet. I WOULD
>make
>> a door32-compliant version *IF* a C++ doorkit supporting door32 ever comes
>out.
>> I'm NOT going to spend hundreds of hours writing my own doorkit just to
>add
>> door32 support, that's simply an unreasonable request.
>
>Okay, playtime is over. Check with Jimmy Rose. He has some things you may
>want to look at.
Daryl, there is *no* *door32* *library* *for* *C++*. I have talked to Jimmy
about this on FidoNet multiple times, for your information. All of the
existing Door32 libraries are for Pascal, NOT C++.
http://www.mysticbbs.com/door32/files.htm -- this is Jimmy's own site -- notice
all the libraries are for Pascal.
Do YOUR research, Daryl.
>Since you don't do your homework and can't run those that are out there,
>your comments are absurd and arrogant. WC already has it. Threats they
>aren't, just facts.
I did my research and have yet to see any WC-proprietary MUDs that have
anything other than a non-existant player base.
>Right now, the bulk of the sales of programs go to
>WCWins. Notice the amount of Writers that went that direction.
The amount? Huh?
The only well-known doorgame author I can think of who writes for WCWins is Al.
>WG and WC
>people spend money. You don't.
How so? You have no idea what amount of money I spend on anything, ever, so
you are in no position to determine what I do and do not spend my money on.
>They exist but you need to get into the WC scene
>to see what WE have. We have it all pretty much as does WG.
The WC scene doesn't have a large player base devoted to mudding, like WG does.
And since my game is a MUD, what interests me is exactly a large player base
devoted to mudding.
>Noper, I don't. You still are commercial<rasberry>. If you aren't, give it
>away. But that opens a whole other can of worms that I don't think you wish
>to deal with.
I already HAVE answered this and dealt with it multiple times but you're
non-functional memory seems to forget it.
I charge money for DoorMUD to keep myself motivated on the project and to
justify spending so many countless hours working on it. If I made the product
freeware I would not be nearly as compelled to spend this much time on it.
>Now, allow me to tell how many WG and WC Sysops have gone to becoming
>Providers using alternate means
How is this at all relevant to what we were discussing? We're comparing BBS
software. NOT talking about how BBS's are turning into ISPs. STAY ON TOPIC.
RhythmNp
>had a Mud at all.
>
>1. Author: Chris Serres WildMud - 32 Bit Wildcat 5.0 Software
A search for "wildmud" on google reports 0 matches. It would appear this MUD
doesn't have much of a player base or support.
>2. Author: Paul Klingler
>This is a partial re-write of the conversion of mud software written for
>version 4.0. A couple of minor bugs were corrected
>which created complications with the file names. This will fix the file open
>error.
You didn't even provide a name for whatever MUD you're describing here, so I
can't even begin to run a search on it.
>3. Author: Pete Nelson
>ZippyMUD - Run an Internet-style MUD on your Wildcat v4.x BBS. Includes
>source code for Wildcat v4.01. FREE!
I thought we were talking about 32-bit MUDs, not 16-bit?
Besides, a google search for "zippymud" returns 0 matches.
These programs are NOT my competition. They don't appear to be in active use
anywhere. I've never even heard them mentioned before. I haven't seen them,
but if I had to guess, I'd say the probably lack a LOT of features that my
program has. If they DID have sufficient features, they'd be more widely used.
Do a google search for "doormud" and then compare this to searches for
"zippymud" and "wildmud". These programs aren't my competition.
Do a google search for "majormud" and then compare it to "doormud". Notice
that my program doesn't even come CLOSE to majormud.
My program isn't competition for majormud. Meanwhile, Zippymud and Wildmud
aren't even on the same RADAR as majormud.
WildCat has no MUD-style product comparable to WG's MajorMud. FACT, not
"harping".
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
news:20010615134225...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
Daryl Hunt
> "Daryl Hunt" <dh...@i70west.com> wrote in message
> news:0VjW6.285698$oc7.19...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> other two were nowhere to be seen on the Santronics site and doing a
> search for them or their authors on the net turned up nothing. Just
> wondering which hat you pulled those out of?
I think Al gave you some good advice. I pulled it out of the Members Only
area. It's a big hat::))
> Yes, but is it like a WG setup where you have to have an external system
> to handle it (ala Ghost or a doorserver) or can it nativelly run 16bit
> DOS doors? (I know, I can setup the software and find out myself... but
> if you know...)
No, it isn't like WG at all. The Externals run under the BBS in a window
that we don't see. I am not really sure how it works but one machine can
handle it with the Externals run from the BBS in Ansi. Some even cross over
to HTML but not many. The question of how it works would be better place in
Santronics lap. I can run any 16 or 32 bit game out there that is not
specifically written for a specific BBS as well as the WCX ones.
> Well first off, it's not my BBS. They're just running the door for me. I
> haven't decided if I'm going to have a permant site setup. If I do I
> have to run it on my own system at home and the only machine free here
> is a development one, which goes up and down like a yo-yo sometime. The
> plan though is to revive some of my old doors, perhaps build some new
> ones and get some new 32bit versions of doors out there. Just a hobby
> thing though as I'm quite comfortable with my day job, so this is just
> when I have some time (and for me, that's the 8+ hours of coding I do
> between work, I'm a bit of sponge that way). Sleep is just an
> inconvenience ;)
Bill, you have my attention. There just isn't enough 32 bits out there as
of yet.
Daryl
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
news:20010615135234...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
> >In all fairness, I did take your advice and go there. Let's see, you
have a
> >16 bit for regular BBSes inlcluding WG that is compiled with Opendoors 16
> >bit.
>
> No, WorldGroup sysops use the 32-bit version through a Synchronet doorgame
> server.
>
> > You have a proprietary 32 bit for exactly ONE BBS. I counted about 15
> >different people in your Message base and most were USERS and not Sysops.
>
> First off, several of those posters are also sysops. Secondly, 15 regular
> posters on a doorgame web message board is pretty well off. Last time I
looked
> at LORD's message board (admittedly, a while ago), it was just about dead.
>
> There are no "broken links" (see below)
>
> >If I can run a MUDD on a multiple of BBS Systems, that makes it a
Doorgame.
> >If I can run it on only one, it's still a Doorgame, just a propietary
one.
> >You offer a 16 bit door for other BBSes.
>
> It's not "MUDD". It's MUD. One D. Multi-User Dungeon.
>
> I made the 16-bit version long before the 32-bit Sync exclusive one. The
game
> was designed for all BBS softwares. The Sync port came much later.
>
> >We have at our disposal 32 bit
> >MUDD Doorgames that we can run.
>
> List a few, and then compare their features to DoorMUD.
>
> >You said that you used a 32 bit door file
> >that was the standard. If it was the standard, it would also work on
other
> >systems. It won't, therefore it is not the standard.
>
> I *NEVER* claimed that I used the standard 32-bit doorfile for DoorMUD.
It's
> simply not something that I ever said. I openly admit that the 32-bit
version
> of DoorMUD runs off of XTRN.DAT.
>
> >This is why your 32
> >bit doorgame is called propietary and is in exactly the same category
with
> >the MUDDS you Yell to high heavens that they are not Doors.
>
> No, those are DLL programs. They dynamically link into the BBS software.
They
> are entirely separate from DOORS, which are EXE programs and run off of a
> dropfile.
>
> The 32-bit version of DoorMUD is an EXE that runs off of a dropfile,
hence, a
> door.
>
> >http://dmud.thebbs.org/index.html is down as well as
> >http://dmud.thebbs.org. The only thing that was up was
> >, http://pub51.ezboard.com/fdoormudwebmessageboardfrm1. Nothing to say
> >eccept to give you the heads up. I hate to see any site with broken
links.
>
> FYI, all of TheBBS.org is down right now. This is no fault of my own. As
for
> why it's down right now, I have no idea, it's usually up and was up all
the
> rest of the day. None of my links are "broken". Try revisiting tomorrow
when
> the host is working properly. Don't try and blame ME for thebbs.org being
> down.
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
> >1. Author: Chris Serres WildMud - 32 Bit Wildcat 5.0 Software
>
> A search for "wildmud" on google reports 0 matches. It would appear this
MUD
> doesn't have much of a player base or support.
Nice shot. You just insulted a Programmer again. You can't find it and it
doesn't exist. I can therefore it does. I wouldn't buy or use anything you
suggest or produce because I expect exactly the same crap you give out. No,
you are not Commercial. You are a spoiled little brat and don't deserve any
break. Now go away so we can get on with this. Obviously, Bill is a
programmer and you aren't.
>
> >2. Author: Paul Klingler
> >This is a partial re-write of the conversion of mud software written for
> >version 4.0. A couple of minor bugs were corrected
> >which created complications with the file names. This will fix the file
open
> >error.
>
> You didn't even provide a name for whatever MUD you're describing here, so
I
> can't even begin to run a search on it.
Go away, you are not suited for this dixussion. Snipe somewhere else and let
the rest of us help Bill help us.
> >3. Author: Pete Nelson
> >ZippyMUD - Run an Internet-style MUD on your Wildcat v4.x BBS. Includes
> >source code for Wildcat v4.01. FREE!
>
> I thought we were talking about 32-bit MUDs, not 16-bit?
> Besides, a google search for "zippymud" returns 0 matches.
And you point is? Actually, your point is you think you are the ONLY expert
out there and we all should bow before you. Not in this lifetime or even
the next. Let the Programmers find out the SYSOPS needs and get us what we
can use. We can't use your except only one 1 platform.
> These programs are NOT my competition. They don't appear to be in active
use
> anywhere. I've never even heard them mentioned before. I haven't seen
them,
> but if I had to guess, I'd say the probably lack a LOT of features that my
> program has. If they DID have sufficient features, they'd be more widely
used.
For someone that is too lazy to write to Santronics, this is completely
Arrogant. But why would I expect anthing else.
> Do a google search for "doormud" and then compare this to searches for
> "zippymud" and "wildmud". These programs aren't my competition.
I don't have to. I have access to areas that you are too lazy to get into.
Google, it's an Internet Search Engine and not a BBS Support System. And,
no, they aren't since THEY haven't slammed yours. Don't look for good
reviews anytime soon.
> Do a google search for "majormud" and then compare it to "doormud".
Notice
> that my program doesn't even come CLOSE to majormud.
Most of us bailed out of certain Software areas due to the Author being a
complete jerk. We won't have to do that with you since we never use your
programs anyway. But you are still a jerk. Keep up the bad work.
> My program isn't competition for majormud. Meanwhile, Zippymud and
Wildmud
> aren't even on the same RADAR as majormud.
If one can run MajorMud, why in the world would anyone even bother with
yours especially after you slammed other peoples products.
> WildCat has no MUD-style product comparable to WG's MajorMud. FACT, not
> "harping".
Let's see, no hits on Google. Is that all you base your "Assumption" on?
It's an Assumption and not a fact since you haven't the foggiest idea what
is available. And that is the only fact. Go snipe somewhere else and let
the Grownups get something nice for a change.
Daryl
Daryl Hunt
Hi Bill, You can write me at my email address. I can't help much and this
has already gotten an unwelcome person in it that will not allow the
discussion to procede. But I would like to see your products since there
just isn't ever enough. Yes, I am a Sysop that is greedy and wants it all
and then some::))
Daryl
RhythmNp
>>
>> A search for "wildmud" on google reports 0 matches. It would appear this
>MUD
>> doesn't have much of a player base or support.
>
>Nice shot. You just insulted a Programmer again.
I made a factual statement -- WildMud does not appear to have a visible player
base or support -- this is not "insulting a programmer".
> Obviously, Bill is a programmer and you aren't.
Oh, that's a good one. How exactly am I "not a programmer"?
>> I thought we were talking about 32-bit MUDs, not 16-bit?
>> Besides, a google search for "zippymud" returns 0 matches.
>
>And you point is? Actually, your point is you think you are the ONLY expert
>out there
No, I've NEVER claimed ANYTHING of the sort. You just INVENT statements that I
have NEVER SAID, much like how you insist I only support freeware or some other
such gibberish.
> Let the Programmers find out the SYSOPS needs and get us what we
>can use. We can't use your except only one 1 platform.
My doorgame runs on any BBS software that supports chain.txt, dorinfo*.def,
exitinfo.bbs, sfdoors.dat, callinfo.bbs, door.sys, tribbs.sys, and xtrn.dat.
Thus it'll run on almost every BBS software out there. I'd hardly call that "1
platform".
>> These programs are NOT my competition. They don't appear to be in active
use
>> anywhere. I've never even heard them mentioned before. I haven't seen
them,
>> but if I had to guess, I'd say the probably lack a LOT of features that my
>> program has. If they DID have sufficient features, they'd be more widely
used.
>
>For someone that is too lazy to write to Santronics, this is completely
>Arrogant. But why would I expect anthing else.
Arrogant, maybe. But still factually true. Those handful of MUDs you listed
simply don't get actively used. If those programs had ANY sort of player base,
they'd come up on search engines.
>> Do a google search for "doormud" and then compare this to searches for
>> "zippymud" and "wildmud". These programs aren't my competition.
>
>I don't have to. I have access to areas that you are too lazy to get into.
>Google, it's an Internet Search Engine and not a BBS Support System. And,
>no, they aren't since THEY haven't slammed yours.
Google is one of the leading search engines. Take ANY popular doorgame and do a
google search on it and you'll get matches. Take a NO-NAME doorgame and you
won't get matches. The games you listed are NO-NAME games. There wasn't even
a support web page for them that came up and I tried about 4 other search
engines as well.
>> My program isn't competition for majormud. Meanwhile, Zippymud and Wildmud
>> aren't even on the same RADAR as majormud.
>
>If one can run MajorMud, why in the world would anyone even bother with
>yours especially after you slammed other peoples products.
There ISN'T any reason for a WG sysop to run my door, since MajorMud is
superior. However, NON-WG sysops never had a decent MUD to run, that's the
reason why I wrote DoorMUD in the first place -- for hobbyist systems that
can't afford WG + MajorMUD.
Nonetheless, my doorgame still gets some gameplay on a few WG boards...
Operation DataStorm ( telnet://ods.ods.net ) comes to mind. This board has
MajorMud but they offer DoorMUD too and a few of the MajorMud users play
DoorMUD as well.
Purchasing the full version of MajorMud with a complete game world costs over
$1000, FYI. It's out of the price range for many sysops.
>> WildCat has no MUD-style product comparable to WG's MajorMud. FACT, not
>> "harping".
>
>Let's see, no hits on Google. Is that all you base your "Assumption" on?
>It's an Assumption and not a fact since you haven't the foggiest idea what
>is available. And that is the only fact.
No, FACT, not assumption. The following is FACTUAL information as I posted
before in a message you ignored:
The WCWins MUDs are nothing compared to MajorMud in terms of popularity. You
don't really know anything about MajorMud, do you? People pay $5/mo, $10/mo,
even $15+/mo just to play MajorMud. And they do this with multiple accounts,
some people pay over $100/mo just to get their MajorMud fix. Nothing WildCat
has can even compare.
At this very moment there are over 200 WG boards dedicated just to MajorMud,
each with an average of 10-30+ people online at any given time playing
MajorMud. The larger ones have 100+ people online at all times, playing
MajorMud. MajorMud is WorldGroup's "killer app" and is the main thing keeping
it afloat right now. WildCat does NOT have any MUD-style game capable of
competing with MajorMud. Before you make ANY other statements on this issue,
you should do some research into the MajorMud scene. Start at
http://www.mudcentral.com
WildCat doesn't have anything on this level. That's a FACT. You can claim
otherwise all you want, but you'd be lying.
>Go snipe somewhere else and let
>the Grownups get something nice for a change.
You know, for someone who claims to be so much more "grownup" than me, you're
certainly a lot more ignorant. It's also notable that you don't really know
how old I am anyway. Age is rather irrelevant in BBS development, besides;
Seth Robinson wrote LORD when he was 16, and Rob Swindell wrote Synchronet when
he was 20.
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
news:20010615224131...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
> >Go snipe somewhere else and let
> >the Grownups get something nice for a change.
>
> You know, for someone who claims to be so much more "grownup" than me,
you're
> certainly a lot more ignorant. It's also notable that you don't really
know
> how old I am anyway. Age is rather irrelevant in BBS development,
besides;
> Seth Robinson wrote LORD when he was 16, and Rob Swindell wrote Synchronet
when
> he was 20.
You came into a good discussion to just disrupt it as usual. You are not,
never have been and never will be a sysop. And you ain't no Seth able or
Rob either. Disrupt that.
Lance Lyon
> how old I am anyway. Age is rather irrelevant in BBS
> development, besides;
> Seth Robinson wrote LORD when he was 16, and Rob Swindell
> wrote Synchronet when
> he was 20.
And don't forget, Adam Hudson started writing QuickBBS when he was only
14. Quick & it's derivatives have been (& still are) a major force in
the BBS world. (although I'm sure a certain person will disagree).
cheers,
Lance
telnet://commodore.thebbs.org
Daryl Hunt
"Lance Lyon" <NOSPAM...@gco.apana.org.au> wrote in message
news:14024...@p1.f360.n634.z3.fidonet.org...
> > From: rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM
> And don't forget, Adam Hudson started writing QuickBBS when he was only
> 14. Quick & it's derivatives have been (& still are) a major force in
> the BBS world. (although I'm sure a certain person will disagree).
And you wonder why people create other avenues for discussion. What a sad
lot.
RhythmNp
>never have been and never will be a sysop. And you ain't no Seth able or
>Rob either. Disrupt that.
>
You're a fool and the majority of this newsgroup dislikes you (at best) or
hates your guts (at worst). I'm not the one disrupting things.
Night Flyer
doesnt... and nobody responds to him, then he will be all alone talking to
himself... like he does in real life... and the newsgroup will be a much
happier place...
telnet://gargoyleslanding.thebbs.org
RhythmNp <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
news:20010616140245...@ng-md1.aol.com...
Daryl Hunt
"Night Flyer" <n...@here.com> wrote in message
news:99273364...@localhost.localdomain...
> just killfile him already... if he has nothing to contribute... and he
> doesnt... and nobody responds to him, then he will be all alone talking to
> himself... like he does in real life... and the newsgroup will be a much
> happier place...
He jumped in with his crap when a we discussing needs with a Programmer. If
you support him like this, no wonder the programmers avoid this area like
the plague. You people killed off 3 other NGs doing this. I can see you
want to make it a fourth. Like the Chat Servers you people have been either
kicked off of, shutdown around you or you nailed it so hard with lies and
cheats where you had to find somewhere else. What will you people do when
you no longer have anyplace to go. I can see it' s already almost there.
WE are using private emails to communicate so that you people can't
interfere. You call yourself a bunch of Programmers and Sysops? Not in my
book as well as almost EVERY other Sysop out there. We were talking about
helping a REAL Programmer to find out what is out there and what is needed.
I have been to your system and it's a sorry place compared to a REAL Sysops
BBS.
You bunch of Beginners need to set back and let the others help you get
things. Your systems will be quite a bit better. Until then, you won't
ever know what is good out there since we won't feel obligated to let you
know about it. Even if we did, you would all say it isn't so. So why
bother with the Children? Have to raise them.
Do a better job in Sysoping and you will not feel the need for this
nonsense. Besides, if I wrote a BBS and watched it being used by such an
insensitive lot, I would burn the Masters Harddrive in the fireplace. It
isn't Robs fault, really, it's the garbage that uses his product. Just like
it isn't the theBBS.org or Dartech.org that is the problem. It's the one
group that usually will use those services. No wonder you people are in the
dark. You don't support the BBS at all since it has to be free and it has
to be your way. You are killing the BBS faster than the Internet ever did.
Yet, you use the Internet to further your agenda and that is to be the only
ones left. Sorry to bust your Bubble, but WE are growing and getting the
good stuff while you people get the lousiest BBS Systems in the history of
BBSdom and I don't mean the BBS Program, it's the Sysops that are lazy and
incompetant. You people don't even make good users since I don't see a
single one of you on ANY of the decent systems out there. I wonder, is that
why they have filters on their systems and you all just happen to be in
them? Is this why you have to start your own crappy BBSes? You all have
done this in the good systems and you got booted.
Funny, the good Sysops help each other on a daily basis. Would we need any
of the scrunge help? Not even close unless I was getting ready to attempt
to take another BBS Down for the Count which isn't going to happen. Yes, I
remember all of you from a few areas on the Internet. You killed them all
and moved on. Just like Locust.
Daryl
Lance Lyon
> I have been to your system and it's a sorry place
> compared to a REAL Sysops
> BBS.
Gee Daryl, are you a REAL sysop ? Just visited your site, no mention of
a BBS anywhere on it, indeed, most of it is "under construction". Not
very professional is it ?
Put your money where your mouth is & post a link to your BBS, just
checked all 411 messages that exist in this area (locally - on my BBS)
& I can't find a single one from you where you post your BBS details.
However, there are many messages from you attacking sysops who *do*
post there BBS details & which you claim are "fakes".
I can do without the diatribe that you'll probably post in reply to
this message, so my simple request (that I don't believe you'll answer
with a simple reply (go ahead & surprise me)) is:
WHAT IS THE LINK TO YOUR BBS?
regards,
Lance Lyon
// Australia's oldest & largest Commodore resource
Commodore Connect - online since 1987
telnet://commodore.thebbs.org
Fidonet: 3:634/360.0 //
Daryl Hunt
> > From: dh...@i70west.com
HI Lance old buddy I generally don't think of you and your kind but tonight
I was installing a Toilet bowl and something reminded me of you and people
like you. Not the toilet itself, but you know the scum that resides along
with the what is left of the Wax Ring, yuppers that triggered it
As for My BBS, find it, it's there. It's a commercial BBS and not for you
and your ilk. I had one open not long ago and every scumbag that frequents
here came in and tried to trash the place. Yuppers, the next time I install
another toilet bowl, I will remember the scumbags but I will not remember
any of you on the BBS since it's for paying customers and special People.
There are a couple in here that rate that rating. The scumbags can find it
if you are really as good as a hacker as you think you are but since it's
hard to find and passworded well, going in should be fun. At least on my
end when they haul the sorry butts away.
Have a nice day.
Daryl
Daryl Hunt
"Darryl Perry" <NOSPAM....@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:7179...@f105.n211.z22.fidonet.org...
> On 06-10-01, Daryl Hunt said...
> Thank you Daryl for your heresay, but I prefer to gather my information
> from
> a knowledgeable/reputable source. I do not recognize you as any sort
> of
> authority.
And I recognise you as a scumbag. You don't even rate a capital S in
scumbags. Try contributing instead of tearing things down. But, once a
scumbag always a scumbag.
BTW, have a nice day.
Daryl
Lance Lyon
RhythmNp
professional IMMEDIATELY.
Daryl Hunt
> I was right, you can't answer a simple question <sigh>
Simple question. What is a scumbag? Lance Lyon is the answer.
Daryl Hunt
"RhythmNp" <rhyt...@aol.comKILLSPAM> wrote in message
> Do a favor for all of us, and yourself -- seek the help of a trained
medical
> professional IMMEDIATELY.
Do us all a favor and shut up IMMEDIATELY, scumbag.
Lance Lyon
> Simple question. What is a scumbag? Lance Lyon is the
> answer.
Goodo! One of my (Australian) political heroes used that term once (in
a fond sort of a way actually), I'm so pleased that you've turned a new
leaf & decided to emulate someone with intelligence, it's very
encouraging Daryl, keep up the therapy, you may ultimately join the
ranks of humanity one day.
cheers,
Lance
telnet://commodore.thebbs.org