Omega: first full report
John Cartmell
<aou...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> The first full report on Omega, 10 pages by a user who's had two months
> to put it through its paces, is appearing exclusively in the latest
> issue of Eureka, which is now being sent out to members of The ARM Club.
[Snip]
Which release of the Omega is that?
--
John Cartmell jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527
Acorn Publisher magazine & FD Games www.acornpublisher.com
Tom Hughes
John Cartmell <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ap.38f1b74c21.a...@argonet.co.uk>, Peter Jennings
> <aou...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > The first full report on Omega, 10 pages by a user who's had two months
> > to put it through its paces, is appearing exclusively in the latest
> > issue of Eureka, which is now being sent out to members of The ARM Club.
>
> [Snip]
>
> Which release of the Omega is that?
What do you mean by release? The firmware release?
Tom
--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://www.compton.nu/
John Cartmell
<t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> In message <4c2215e...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <ap.38f1b74c21.a...@argonet.co.uk>, Peter
> > Jennings <aou...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > > The first full report on Omega, 10 pages by a user who's had two
> > > months to put it through its paces, is appearing exclusively in the
> > > latest issue of Eureka, which is now being sent out to members of
> > > The ARM Club.
> >
> > [Snip]
> >
> > Which release of the Omega is that?
> What do you mean by release? The firmware release?
Yes. Is it that produced for Wakefield, BigBen or subsequent? I understand
it can make quite a difference.
Tom Hughes
John Cartmell <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <yekisoz...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>, Tom Hughes
> <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
>
> > What do you mean by release? The firmware release?
>
> Yes. Is it that produced for Wakefield, BigBen or subsequent? I understand
> it can make quite a difference.
The only firmware we have officially received is that which was
loaded when we received the machine at Wakefield. Unfortunately all
my mails to MicroDigital have gone unanswered and no updates were
ever received from then.
I have however received copies of three subsequent firmware updates
from other more helpful people, and the first two of those are
discussed in my article. The third arrived after it was sent for
publication and can't be loaded anyway as I've managed to render
the machine unbootable now and have been unable to obtain any
assistance from MD in correcting that situation.
John Cartmell
<t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> In message <4c22528...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <yekisoz...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>, Tom Hughes
> > <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> >
> > > What do you mean by release? The firmware release?
> >
> > Yes. Is it that produced for Wakefield, BigBen or subsequent? I
> > understand it can make quite a difference.
> The only firmware we have officially received is that which was loaded
> when we received the machine at Wakefield.
[Snip]
> I have however received copies of three subsequent firmware updates from
> other more helpful people, and the first two of those are discussed in
> my article.
[Snip]
Is there significant difference between the Wakefield and those later two
versions?
Tom Hughes
John Cartmell <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <yekoeyr...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>, Tom Hughes
> <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
>
> > I have however received copies of three subsequent firmware updates from
> > other more helpful people, and the first two of those are discussed in
> > my article.
> [Snip]
> Is there significant difference between the Wakefield and those later two
> versions?
I wouldn't call the differences huge, but there are some significant
improvements - the second one made the floppy work for example. You'll
have to read my article if you want the full details ;-)
The Doctor
Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
I think the ends of those two paragraphs should speak volumes to anyone
considering the purchase of an Omega.
Cheers!
--
Graham
The RISC OS software site - www.thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk/software
The RISC OS hardware guide - www.thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk/hardware
Deathzone Emulation - www.thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk/emulation
The Main Control Room - www.thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk
Stuart Winsor
The Doctor <thed...@thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <yekoeyr...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>
> Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> > In message <4c22528...@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
> > John Cartmell <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <yekisoz...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>, Tom Hughes
> > > <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > What do you mean by release? The firmware release?
> > >
> > > Yes. Is it that produced for Wakefield, BigBen or subsequent? I understand
> > > it can make quite a difference.
> >
> > The only firmware we have officially received is that which was
> > loaded when we received the machine at Wakefield. Unfortunately all
> > my mails to MicroDigital have gone unanswered and no updates were
> > ever received from then.
> >
> > I have however received copies of three subsequent firmware updates
> > from other more helpful people, and the first two of those are
> > discussed in my article. The third arrived after it was sent for
> > publication and can't be loaded anyway as I've managed to render
> > the machine unbootable now and have been unable to obtain any
> > assistance from MD in correcting that situation.
> >
> I think the ends of those two paragraphs should speak volumes to anyone
> considering the purchase of an Omega.
> Cheers!
Starting to make Tiny computers brilliant.
--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | /
| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ stuart...@argonet.co.uk
101 uses for a Pentium: No1 - A slow cooker.
Steve Fryatt
<de2388224c...@thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk>:
> In message <yekoeyr...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>
> Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
[Omega]
> > The only firmware we have officially received is that which was loaded
> > when we received the machine at Wakefield. Unfortunately all my mails
> > to MicroDigital have gone unanswered and no updates were ever received
> > from then.
> >
> > I have however received copies of three subsequent firmware updates
> > from other more helpful people, and the first two of those are
> > discussed in my article. The third arrived after it was sent for
> > publication and can't be loaded anyway as I've managed to render the
> > machine unbootable now and have been unable to obtain any assistance
> > from MD in correcting that situation.
>
> I think the ends of those two paragraphs should speak volumes to anyone
> considering the purchase of an Omega.
David Atkins has always been clear that firmware updates could easily
render the Omega unusable in the event of any interruption to the update
process. The concern I had, when he last discussed the issue, was his
unwillingness to confirm or deny whether users would be charged to have
their machines 'rescued' from this state.
--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/
* "We started off trying to set up a small anarchist community, but people
wouldn't obey the rules." - Alan Bennett
druck
> On 15 Aug, The Doctor wrote in message
> <de2388224c...@thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk>:
>> In message <yekoeyr...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>
>> Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
>
> [Omega]
>
>>> The only firmware we have officially received is that which was loaded
>>> when we received the machine at Wakefield. Unfortunately all my mails to
>>> MicroDigital have gone unanswered and no updates were ever received from
>>> then.
>>>
>>> I have however received copies of three subsequent firmware updates from
>>> other more helpful people, and the first two of those are discussed in my
>>> article. The third arrived after it was sent for publication and can't be
>>> loaded anyway as I've managed to render the machine unbootable now and
>>> have been unable to obtain any assistance from MD in correcting that
>>> situation.
>>
>> I think the ends of those two paragraphs should speak volumes to anyone
>> considering the purchase of an Omega.
>
> David Atkins has always been clear that firmware updates could easily
> render the Omega unusable in the event of any interruption to the update
> process. The concern I had, when he last discussed the issue, was his
> unwillingness to confirm or deny whether users would be charged to have
> their machines 'rescued' from this state.
But Tom's machine wasn't disabled by performing a firmware update. All those
worked correctly. The problem occurred after unplugging the SoundDMA module
to try to improve stability. After a reboot the machine hung before reaching
the desktop or command line, and a CMOS reset does not work.
---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
Tom Hughes
druck <ne...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
Dave is entirely correct as to how I rendered it unbootable. It would
probably have been more sensible just to kill the module, but I unplugged
it and I now get an unknown SWI error as soon as I turn it on - there
seem to be some calls to Sound SWIs very early in the hardware initialisation
routines before the OS proper is started.
A delete power on doesn't seem to fix it for some reason, so I need some
other way to clear the CMOS but I haven't managed to find one yet.
Peter Bell
The Doctor <thed...@thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <yekoeyr...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>
> Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> > The only firmware we have officially received is that which was
> > loaded when we received the machine at Wakefield. Unfortunately all
> > my mails to MicroDigital have gone unanswered and no updates were
> > ever received from then.
> >
> > I have however received copies of three subsequent firmware updates
> > from other more helpful people, and the first two of those are
> > discussed in my article. The third arrived after it was sent for
> > publication and can't be loaded anyway as I've managed to render
> > the machine unbootable now and have been unable to obtain any
> > assistance from MD in correcting that situation.
> >
> I think the ends of those two paragraphs should speak volumes to anyone
> considering the purchase of an Omega.
To be fair, I think that Tom is the recipient of 'special treatment'
from MicroDigital. I received my Omega at the same time as Tom, and I
have received several updates via email - each one has loaded without
problems. I do receive replies to my emails and phone calls.
Indeed, David Atkins spent more than an hour on the phone with me when
resolving a slight difficulty I experienced initialy with my Alpha.
--
Peter Bell - pe...@bellfamily.org.uk
robert andrews
"Tom Hughes" <t...@compton.nu> wrote in message
news:ce136c2...@loxley.compton.nu...
Tom Hughes
"robert andrews" <micr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "Tom Hughes" <t...@compton.nu> wrote in message
> news:ce136c2...@loxley.compton.nu...
>
> > Dave is entirely correct as to how I rendered it unbootable. It would
> > probably have been more sensible just to kill the module, but I unplugged
> > it and I now get an unknown SWI error as soon as I turn it on - there
> > seem to be some calls to Sound SWIs very early in the hardware
> > initialisation routines before the OS proper is started.
> >
> > A delete power on doesn't seem to fix it for some reason, so I need some
> > other way to clear the CMOS but I haven't managed to find one yet.
>
> have you tried taking out the sound card??
I believe I did try that, yes.
druck
> In message <de2388224c...@thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk>
> The Doctor <thed...@thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <yekoeyr...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>
>> Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
>>> The only firmware we have officially received is that which was loaded
>>> when we received the machine at Wakefield. Unfortunately all my mails to
>>> MicroDigital have gone unanswered and no updates were ever received from
>>> then.
[2nd paragaph snipped]
>>
>> I think the ends of those two paragraphs should speak volumes to anyone
>> considering the purchase of an Omega.
>
> To be fair, I think that Tom is the recipient of 'special treatment' from
> MicroDigital. I received my Omega at the same time as Tom, and I have
> received several updates via email - each one has loaded without problems.
> I do receive replies to my emails and phone calls.
We'd like to know why this is. Tom has gone out of his way to be fair to
MicroDigital in the review, and given them every opportunity to respond to
his questions.
If they were worried we'd do a review for our Club's magazine, it was pretty
obvious anyone who received a machine, would recount their experiences to one
publication or another. Your review appeared in Archive before ours did, and
you are still receiving support.
> Indeed, David Atkins spent more than an hour on the phone with me when
> resolving a slight difficulty I experienced initialy with my Alpha.
Well I just hope you don't do anything to upset them, as you could be left
without support, or a working machine, or any idea why.
Dickon Hood
: Dave is entirely correct as to how I rendered it unbootable. It would
: probably have been more sensible just to kill the module, but I unplugged
: it and I now get an unknown SWI error as soon as I turn it on - there
: seem to be some calls to Sound SWIs very early in the hardware initialisation
: routines before the OS proper is started.
Nice.
: A delete power on doesn't seem to fix it for some reason, so I need some
: other way to clear the CMOS but I haven't managed to find one yet.
Rip the battery out and short out the chip? Assuming you can identify it
and that's actually possible without wrecking the machine.
Desn't sound healthy, though. Unplugging a module shouldn't be possible
if the machine can be rendered unusable by doing so...
--
Dickon Hood
Due to constant nagging to change it, my .sig is temporarily unavailable.
Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible. We apologise for the
inconvenience in the meantime.
Steve Fryatt
<8f3dde23...@iyonix.earley.fourcom.com>:
> In message <de2388224c...@thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk>
> The Doctor <thed...@thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I think the ends of those two paragraphs should speak volumes to
> > anyone considering the purchase of an Omega.
>
> To be fair, I think that Tom is the recipient of 'special treatment'
> from MicroDigital.
Very clever of them, then... I'd have thought they'd have treated their
high-profile prize winners above averagely, given the potential for bad PR
that could result if they didn't.
--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/
* "There are only two emotions in a plane: boredom and terror." - Orson Wells
Peter Bell
druck <ne...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 18 Aug 2003 Peter Bell <pe...@bellfamily.org.uk> wrote:
[Snip]
> Your review appeared in Archive before ours did, and
> you are still receiving support.
I did a review in Archive? :S
Tom Hughes
Peter Bell <pe...@bellfamily.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <3a4e0e24...@druck.freeuk.net>
> druck <ne...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
>
> > On 18 Aug 2003 Peter Bell <pe...@bellfamily.org.uk> wrote:
>
> [Snip]
>
> > Your review appeared in Archive before ours did, and
> > you are still receiving support.
>
> I did a review in Archive? :S
No, you didn't, but a myth that you had accidentally spread among
certain ARM Club committee members while we were awy from our Internet
connections in Canada. Dave obviously didn't notice that it wasn't
true when he got back and read Archive.
Tom Hughes
Dickon Hood <dicko...@fluff.org> wrote:
> In article <ce136c2...@loxley.compton.nu>, Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
>
> : A delete power on doesn't seem to fix it for some reason, so I need some
> : other way to clear the CMOS but I haven't managed to find one yet.
>
> Rip the battery out and short out the chip? Assuming you can identify it
> and that's actually possible without wrecking the machine.
I did think of that, but so far the battery has resisted my attempts
to remove it ;-)
Dickon Hood
: In message <bhr4j9$4c7$2...@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
: Dickon Hood <dicko...@fluff.org> wrote:
Just short the thing out anyway, and hope the battery survives? :-)
druck
Ah I didn't know that. I'm not an Archive subscriber (to my shame), but I
have been sent a few copies by Paul B. The first is July 03, so I'd assumed
it would have been in an earlier issue.
Jim Lesurf
<pe...@bellfamily.org.uk> wrote:
> To be fair, I think that Tom is the recipient of 'special treatment'
> from MicroDigital.
Can someone explain to me why Tom may have been singled out for such
'special treatment'? Afraid I don't know the circumstances, but if he is a
customer and the machine was purchased, surely he is entitiled to the same
support and courtesy as anyone else? Is there some vital info I have
missed?
Slainte,
Jim
--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
TechWriter http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/TechWrite/Tips1.html
Compo http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Compo/clues.html
Tom Hughes
Jim Lesurf <jc...@st-and.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <8f3dde23...@iyonix.earley.fourcom.com>, Peter Bell
> <pe...@bellfamily.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > To be fair, I think that Tom is the recipient of 'special treatment'
> > from MicroDigital.
>
> Can someone explain to me why Tom may have been singled out for such
> 'special treatment'? Afraid I don't know the circumstances, but if he is a
> customer and the machine was purchased, surely he is entitiled to the same
> support and courtesy as anyone else? Is there some vital info I have
> missed?
I'm not a paying customer. The machine I have is the one The ARM Club
won in the exhibitor draw at Wakefield. As MD have never answered any
of the emails I have sent them I can only speculate as to the reasons
for their behaviour with regard to me.
Jim Lesurf
<dicko...@fluff.org> wrote:
> In article <f788212...@loxley.compton.nu>, Tom Hughes
> <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> : In message <bhr4j9$4c7$2...@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk> Dickon Hood
> : <dicko...@fluff.org> wrote:
> : > In article <ce136c2...@loxley.compton.nu>, Tom Hughes
> : > <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> : > : A delete power on doesn't seem to fix it for some reason, so I
> : > : need some other way to clear the CMOS but I haven't managed to
> : > : find one yet.
> : > Rip the battery out and short out the chip? Assuming you can
> : > identify it and that's actually possible without wrecking the
> : > machine.
> : I did think of that, but so far the battery has resisted my attempts
> : to remove it ;-)
> Just short the thing out anyway, and hope the battery survives? :-)
If the battery is a rechargable (?) then it might be safer to connect a low
value resistor across it for a day or so, to discharge it more safely. Then
remove the resistor and start from there.
Paul Beverley
Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
I think I can help to explain it.
This is special treatment reserved for anyone who is
classed as "press".
It was just rather ironic that, having excluded
magazines from the exhibitors' prize draw, the winners
were The ARM Club who publish a magazine.
As David Atkins said at the Dutch show earlier in the
year, the press are "just doing it to line their pockets".
But then, being a full-time magazine publisher, I have
to confess that I *am* doing it to earn money.
All the best,
Paul.
Paul Beverley, Editor, Living with Technology: http://www.livtech.co.uk/
+44-(0)1603-722544 Archive Magazine: http://www.archivemag.co.uk/
Tom Hughes
Paul Beverley <pa...@archivemag.co.uk> wrote:
> This is special treatment reserved for anyone who is
> classed as "press".
That is my best guess as well.
> It was just rather ironic that, having excluded
> magazines from the exhibitors' prize draw, the winners
> were The ARM Club who publish a magazine.
A restriction that as far as I know wasn't mentioned beforehand
even ignoring the fact that we consider ourselves a user group
rather than a magazine.
The magazine is certainly not our sole (or even major) raison
d'etre, it's just another one of our services for our members.
> As David Atkins said at the Dutch show earlier in the
> year, the press are "just doing it to line their pockets".
Not an accusation that can be levelled at us of course, even if
it was a fair accusation with regard to other magazine, which it
isn't in my opinion.
Chris Williams
On 19 Aug 2003, Tom Hughes wrote:
> In message <cd04672...@paul.archivemag.co.uk>
> Paul Beverley <pa...@archivemag.co.uk> wrote:
>
[snip]
> > It was just rather ironic that, having excluded
> > magazines from the exhibitors' prize draw, the winners
> > were The ARM Club who publish a magazine.
>
> A restriction that as far as I know wasn't mentioned beforehand
> even ignoring the fact that we consider ourselves a user group
> rather than a magazine.
It was in the <small>print</small>..
http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact607.html and
http://www.wakefieldshow.org.uk/pressrel1.html
I'm quite glad Eureka won it.
All the best,
--
Chris Williams | http://arabella.diodesign.co.uk/
Tom Hughes
Chris Williams <es...@warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
> It was in the <small>print</small>..
>
> http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact607.html and
> http://www.wakefieldshow.org.uk/pressrel1.html
>
> I'm quite glad Eureka won it.
So it was... I did actually look for that condition afterwards
when I heard that people were saying we shouldn't have won it, and
couldn't actually find it in any of the places I looked.
Does anybody understand what this is supposed to mean:
"The magazines were excluded primarily to prevent wild stories
of a possible bias by a magazine if they won one.
Bias for or against who exactly? Is the theory that a magazine that
won an Omega would suddenly sing it's praises from the rooftops
regardless of how good it was?
Ralph Corderoy
> As David Atkins said at the Dutch show earlier in the year, the press
> are "just doing it to line their pockets".
What's David's motivation if not to turn a profit?
Cheers,
--
Ralph Corderoy. http://inputplus.co.uk/ralph/ http://troff.org/
Peter Jennings
>
> This is special treatment reserved for anyone who is
> classed as "press".
>
>
> As David Atkins said at the Dutch show earlier in the
> year, the press are "just doing it to line their pockets".
>
pockets of those who make and sell the computer, unless they are stupid
enough to foster the impression that they are not interested in supporting
the machine.
Peter Jennings
eur...@armclub.org.uk
Editor of Eureka, the magazine for members of The ARM Club
VinceH (use reply-to)
Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> Does anybody understand what this is supposed to mean:
> "The magazines were excluded primarily to prevent wild
> stories of a possible bias by a magazine if they won one.
> Bias for or against who exactly? Is the theory that a magazine
> that won an Omega would suddenly sing it's praises from the
> rooftops regardless of how good it was?
I suspect it's subtly different from that - MD have
faith in themselves and their machine's ability and
quality, so they *would* expect any magazine review
to be singing the machine's praises.
They are therefore paranoid that if a magazine *did*
win the prize, and gave the machine the glowing
review they'd expect /anyway/, then the readers (and
MD's competitors) would be saying "That review is
biased - it's only a good review because they 'won'
it. It was probably a FIX!"
Or something.
(In fact, I was saying all that to take the Michael
out of MD, but reading it back it actually makes
sense and, ummm, sounds plausible - though it does
hinge on an element of paranoia, so it's got that
going for it).
I don't get Eureka. What did you actually say about
the machine? Just a one line summary will do - hell,
even a one word summary, along the lines of "ace",
"okay", "crap!" or whatever. <g>
VinceH
--
VinceH can be found in the vicinity of http://www.vinceh.com
Soft Rock Software can be found around http://www.softrock.co.uk
WebChange2 for RISC OS & Windows is at http://www.webchange.co.uk
Dickon Hood
: Paul Beverley wrote:
: > This is special treatment reserved for anyone who is
: > classed as "press".
: <snip>
: > As David Atkins said at the Dutch show earlier in the
: > year, the press are "just doing it to line their pockets".
: The free publicity provided by the press should be helping to line the
: pockets of those who make and sell the computer, unless they are stupid
: enough to foster the impression that they are not interested in supporting
: the machine.
Well, yes, unless the machine is in a totally unfinished state, unstable,
and unfit for the purpose for which it is about to be sold, and thus the
magazine ends up slating it.
But that'd never happen, of course. Nobody'd be silly enough to announce
a machine three[0] years in advance of it going on sale, then give away an
alpha version to prove it does actually exist.
Oh, wait...
: Peter Jennings
: eur...@armclub.org.uk
: Editor of Eureka, the magazine for members of The ARM Club
:-)
[0] Ish. I've lost count.
--
Dickon Hood, not a member, so unfortunately won't be reading the review.
Grant Randall- Spam trapped
Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> I'm not a paying customer. The machine I have is the one The ARM Club
> won in the exhibitor draw at Wakefield. As MD have never answered any
> of the emails I have sent them I can only speculate as to the reasons
> for their behaviour with regard to me.
Have you ever tried 'phoning them to ask if you are entitled to support? I
am not yet a customer of MD but have had some interesting and pleasant
'phone conversations with David Atkins re Omega.
--
Kind Regards,
Grant Randall
<grant.rand...@ntlworld.com> Yorkshire, GB
Please remove the "SPAMFREE" when replying.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/grant.randall Randalls Home Page
During shift periods, I may be slow to reply, please bear with me...
druck
> In article <yekd6f1...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>,
> Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
>
> > Does anybody understand what this is supposed to mean:
>
> > "The magazines were excluded primarily to prevent wild
> > stories of a possible bias by a magazine if they won one.
>
> > Bias for or against who exactly? Is the theory that a magazine
> > that won an Omega would suddenly sing it's praises from the
> > rooftops regardless of how good it was?
>
> I suspect it's subtly different from that - MD have
> faith in themselves and their machine's ability and
> quality, so they *would* expect any magazine review
> to be singing the machine's praises.
>
> They are therefore paranoid that if a magazine *did*
> win the prize, and gave the machine the glowing
> review they'd expect /anyway/, then the readers (and
> MD's competitors) would be saying "That review is
> biased - it's only a good review because they 'won'
> it. It was probably a FIX!"
If you've won something you are probably more likely to be critical, because
you haven't had to spend your own money and justify your decision.
> Or something.
>
> (In fact, I was saying all that to take the Michael
> out of MD, but reading it back it actually makes
> sense and, ummm, sounds plausible - though it does
> hinge on an element of paranoia, so it's got that
> going for it).
>
> I don't get Eureka. What did you actually say about
> the machine? Just a one line summary will do - hell,
> even a one word summary, along the lines of "ace",
> "okay", "crap!" or whatever. <g>
Tom went out of his way to give MD every benefit of the doubt over the future
resolutions of the many short comings, and wrote a very fair review, more
than fair in my opinion.
I wouldn't have wanted to write that review as I don't consider a machine
with no network capability and very poor graphics to be any use to me. We at
the time thought the machine was representative of a production varient which
was as usually claimed to be shipping two weeks after Wakefield, but without
any contact with MD who knows.
I must admit that if it had been me taking it home, I'd have lost patience
with it a long time ago, and posted it back to MD reverse charges via Parel
Farce[1].
---druck
[1] In the full expectation of being delivered as at the beginning of the
Pet Detective movie.
John Cartmell
<t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> > It was just rather ironic that, having excluded magazines from the
> > exhibitors' prize draw, the winners were The ARM Club who publish a
> > magazine.
> A restriction that as far as I know wasn't mentioned beforehand even
> ignoring the fact that we consider ourselves a user group rather than a
> magazine.
Before this version gets any further the exclusion was *very* clear and I
certainly knew of it well before the offer was announced - or even
finalised. It *certainly* was *not* an afterthought. The Wakefield
committee can confirm I am sure.
--
John Cartmell jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527
Acorn Publisher magazine & FD Games www.acornpublisher.com
John Cartmell
<t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> So it was... I did actually look for that condition afterwards when I
> heard that people were saying we shouldn't have won it, and couldn't
> actually find it in any of the places I looked.
The condition [that magazines weren't eligible to win] was certainly very
clear to us from the very beginning. I'm surprised that an exhibitor might
not have been aware of it.
Tom Hughes
John Cartmell <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Before this version gets any further the exclusion was *very* clear and I
> certainly knew of it well before the offer was announced - or even
> finalised. It *certainly* was *not* an afterthought. The Wakefield
> committee can confirm I am sure.
I'm not saying it wasn't, and the press release that somebody referred
to is perfectly clear. I certainly wasn't aware of it when I arrived at
Wakefield and was handed the club's draw ticket however.
John Cartmell
wrote:
Presumably a result of the loose nature of a voluntary organisation like
the ARMClub. I'm sure Steve (AU) and Paul (Archive) understood the regs as
did I.
druck
> In article <yekd6f1...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>, Tom Hughes
> <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> > So it was... I did actually look for that condition afterwards when I
> > heard that people were saying we shouldn't have won it, and couldn't
> > actually find it in any of the places I looked.
>
> The condition [that magazines weren't eligible to win] was certainly very
> clear to us from the very beginning. I'm surprised that an exhibitor might
> not have been aware of it.
We are not a magazine, we are a user group with a publication written by
the members for exclisively for the members. We don't sell a magazine, we
don't profit from the magazine or any other activity.
If the terms of the competition were that nothing about the machine could
be passed on to anyone else in writing, it should have been accompanied by
an NDA.
---druck
Tom Hughes
John Cartmell <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <7f93a22...@loxley.compton.nu>, Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu>
> wrote:
> > In message <4c249c7...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> > <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Before this version gets any further the exclusion was *very* clear
> > > and I certainly knew of it well before the offer was announced - or
> > > even finalised. It *certainly* was *not* an afterthought. The
> > > Wakefield committee can confirm I am sure.
>
> > I'm not saying it wasn't, and the press release that somebody referred
> > to is perfectly clear. I certainly wasn't aware of it when I arrived at
> > Wakefield and was handed the club's draw ticket however.
>
> Presumably a result of the loose nature of a voluntary organisation like
> the ARMClub. I'm sure Steve (AU) and Paul (Archive) understood the regs as
> did I.
To be honest, even if I had known I probably wouldn't have thought
it odd when they handed me the ticket. I would just have assumed that
they had decided we ere a user group rather than a magazine and that
it was only the commercial magazines they intended to exclude.
ne...@apdl.co.uk
On 19-Aug-2003, John Cartmell <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I n article <yeklltp...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>, Tom Hughes
> <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> > > It was just rather ironic that, having excluded magazines from
> > > the
> > > exhibitors' prize draw, the winners were The ARM Club who
> > > publish
> > > a magazine.
>
> > A restriction that as far as I know wasn't mentioned beforehand
> > even
> > ignoring the fact that we consider ourselves a user group rather
> > than a magazine.
>
> Before this version gets any further the exclusion was *very* clear
> and
> I certainly knew of it well before the offer was announced - or even
> finalised. It *certainly* was *not* an afterthought. The Wakefield
> committee can confirm I am sure.
Perhaps I can clarify this a bit more and suggest a reason why the
confusion arose.
Like all exhibitors I was fully aware of the 'magazine' exclusion from
the draw. However, it wasn't until we arrived that we were told that
APDL would be excluded because we publish RISC World, and Virtual
Acorn would be excluded because Aaron is the Editor of RISC World.
AIUI (and this is just recolections of a conversation from many months
ago) the main aim of this restriction was to put the prize in the
hands of one of the small developers who otherwise wouldn't be able to
afford one. Saying 'no magazines', although it might seem a roundabout
way of achieving this, meant that there was only one large(ish)
company that wasn't excluded.
Although the ARM Club might not have regarded themselves as 'a
magazine' obviously David Atkins did. Neither Aaron or myself thought
of ourselves as magazines either, since RISC World is not a major part
of our businesses, but to make sure we sought clarification, and were
told that we would be excluded. Obviously the ARM Club didn't check.
--
David Holden - APDL - <http://www.apdl.co.uk>
Tom Hughes
ne...@apdl.co.uk wrote:
> AIUI (and this is just recolections of a conversation from many months
> ago) the main aim of this restriction was to put the prize in the
> hands of one of the small developers who otherwise wouldn't be able to
> afford one. Saying 'no magazines', although it might seem a roundabout
> way of achieving this, meant that there was only one large(ish)
> company that wasn't excluded.
We are of course a small developer as well as other things, and one
of the things I did with the machine was to check all our software.
> Although the ARM Club might not have regarded themselves as 'a
> magazine' obviously David Atkins did. Neither Aaron or myself thought
> of ourselves as magazines either, since RISC World is not a major part
> of our businesses, but to make sure we sought clarification, and were
> told that we would be excluded. Obviously the ARM Club didn't check.
Indeed we didn't, because I was the first person to arrive and was
given the ticket and I wasn't even aware of the rule in question.
Andy McMullon
John Cartmell <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> expounded:
> In article <7f93a22...@loxley.compton.nu>, Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu>
> wrote:
> > In message <4c249c7...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> > <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Before this version gets any further the exclusion was *very* clear
> > > and I certainly knew of it well before the offer was announced - or
> > > even finalised. It *certainly* was *not* an afterthought. The
> > > Wakefield committee can confirm I am sure.
>
> > I'm not saying it wasn't, and the press release that somebody referred
> > to is perfectly clear. I certainly wasn't aware of it when I arrived at
> > Wakefield and was handed the club's draw ticket however.
>
> Presumably a result of the loose nature of a voluntary organisation like
> the ARMClub. I'm sure Steve (AU) and Paul (Archive) understood the regs as
> did I.
I suppose the question is why was Tom given the machine if he wasn't
entitled to it? If the rules had been broken then they could have
legitimately drawn another ticket.
Stuart Winsor
<ne...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
> AIUI (and this is just recolections of a conversation from many months
> ago) the main aim of this restriction was to put the prize in the
> hands of one of the small developers who otherwise wouldn't be able to
> afford one.
Well if that was the case it should have been resticted to developers only.
I might have won it and I am not a developer. Apart from some very simple
stuff in basic on the Beeb many years ago I am a complete duffer.
OTOH Druck could certainly be counted a developer as well as a major
player in the ARM club.
Stuart.
--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | /
| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ stuart...@argonet.co.uk
101 uses for a Pentium: No1 - A slow cooker.
Toby Smith
[snip]
> Although the ARM Club might not have regarded themselves as 'a
> magazine' obviously David Atkins did. Neither Aaron or myself thought
> of ourselves as magazines either, since RISC World is not a major part
> of our businesses, but to make sure we sought clarification, and were
> told that we would be excluded. Obviously the ARM Club didn't check.
I'd take the opinion that David Atkins (or who ever was organizing the
draw tickets) didn't consider The Club to be a magazine. We're a user
group and always have been. I'm sure that if we were to be considered
'press' and disqualified this would have come up at the ticket point, or
at the reading out of the draw, or at least when Tom later collected the
machine, which would have been a good point to bring up any objections.
We can assume from this that there were no objections at this stage, and
the club certainly hasn't heard of any from Microdigital since. If they
do have a problem, I'd invite them to contact Tom or myself so that
things can be sorted out.
I'm sure that our volunteer editor and member-contributors would have
been quite chuffed if the Club magazine was considered good enough to
rank alongside professional commercial publications such as those other
magazines mentioned. We are a bunch of unpaid amateurs doing this for
love rather than money, and as club chairman I am quite proud of that fact.
As Druck has pointed out, if the 'no magazines' clause was meant to
imply 'no publication of details', then that's far more effectively
achieved with a Non Disclosure Agreement. It's not like this industry's
never seen or heard of NDAs after all. Having said which, blocking
publication of details about a machine that was meant to be shipped to
users in a fortnight would seem odd anyway.
As one community figure put it to me, the fact that the Omega was won by
an organization known to be independent, unreliant on any form of
advertising or co-marketing and 'staffed' by a one or two of the most
knowledgeable people in this community seems a remarkable act of
serendipity.
To repeat Peter's original point; anyone wishing to join the club and
receive all the benefits of membership, along with Tom's technical
review, can find all the relevant details on our website
http://www.armclub.org.uk/membership/ Hopefully we'll be able to
continue bringing members information about how the Omega's is progressing.
--
Toby Smith -=- Chairman, The ARM Club
The Independent User Group for RISC OS Owners
http://www.armclub.org.uk/
druck
> Perhaps I can clarify this a bit more and suggest a reason why the
> confusion arose.
>
> Like all exhibitors I was fully aware of the 'magazine' exclusion from
> the draw. However, it wasn't until we arrived that we were told that
> APDL would be excluded because we publish RISC World, and Virtual
> Acorn would be excluded because Aaron is the Editor of RISC World.
>
> AIUI (and this is just recolections of a conversation from many months
> ago) the main aim of this restriction was to put the prize in the
> hands of one of the small developers who otherwise wouldn't be able to
> afford one.
Then it went exactly where it was intended. Tom is a small developer
responsible for numerous useful programs, including the networking components
for Remote Messenger and Messenger Server. He is exactly the sort of person
MD should be cultivating if they want any software to take advantage of their
platform.
> Saying 'no magazines', although it might seem a roundabout
> way of achieving this, meant that there was only one large(ish)
> company that wasn't excluded.
Then what it should have said was; no to exhibitors.
> Although the ARM Club might not have regarded themselves as 'a
> magazine' obviously David Atkins did. Neither Aaron or myself thought
> of ourselves as magazines either, since RISC World is not a major part
> of our businesses, but to make sure we sought clarification, and were
> told that we would be excluded.
Tom's only connection with the magazine is to submit the occational article,
the same as any other club member. Only our editor, Peter, is involved in
producing the magazine - on a voluntary basis as for all the other activities
of the Club.
> Obviously the ARM Club didn't check.
It wasn't up to us to check, its up to the organsiers of the competition.
They were quite happy to present us with the prize, it wasn't until a few
days later someone decided they didn't like what happened.
Chris Hughes
> In article <yeklltp...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>, Tom Hughes
> <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> > > It was just rather ironic that, having excluded magazines from the
> > > exhibitors' prize draw, the winners were The ARM Club who publish a
> > > magazine.
>
> > A restriction that as far as I know wasn't mentioned beforehand even
> > ignoring the fact that we consider ourselves a user group rather than a
> > magazine.
>
> Before this version gets any further the exclusion was *very* clear and I
> certainly knew of it well before the offer was announced - or even
> finalised. It *certainly* was *not* an afterthought. The Wakefield
> committee can confirm I am sure.
All exhibitors got an email and all potential exhibitors got it as well. It
was also published on drobe, etc..
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
> In message <yek4r0e...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>
> Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
>
> > In message <4c23f88...@st-and.demon.co.uk>
> > Jim Lesurf <jc...@st-and.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <8f3dde23...@iyonix.earley.fourcom.com>, Peter Bell
> > > <pe...@bellfamily.org.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > > To be fair, I think that Tom is the recipient of 'special treatment'
> > > > from MicroDigital.
> > >
> > > Can someone explain to me why Tom may have been singled out for such
> > > 'special treatment'? Afraid I don't know the circumstances, but if he is a
> > > customer and the machine was purchased, surely he is entitiled to the same
> > > support and courtesy as anyone else? Is there some vital info I have
> > > missed?
> >
> > I'm not a paying customer. The machine I have is the one The ARM Club
> > won in the exhibitor draw at Wakefield. As MD have never answered any
> > of the emails I have sent them I can only speculate as to the reasons
> > for their behaviour with regard to me.
>
> I think I can help to explain it.
>
> This is special treatment reserved for anyone who is
> classed as "press".
And once again Paul you would be wrong!
>
> It was just rather ironic that, having excluded
> magazines from the exhibitors' prize draw, the winners
> were The ARM Club who publish a magazine.
As the organisers of the show and awarder of the prizes, we could include or
exclude who we wished, in agreement with MD who donated the 1st prizes. It
was agreed to exclude the commercial press, ie. Archive, Acorn User, Acorn
Publisher and RiscWorld. It appears MD may have felt the ARM Club were also
doing a 'commercial' magazine because of their other commercial activities,
we considered them to be a club for their members and if they won it (as
they did) they would sort out a means to allow one of their members to
actually own it, but they decided that a member of the ARM Club committee
should 'look after it'. But thats their business.
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> In message <cd04672...@paul.archivemag.co.uk>
> Paul Beverley <pa...@archivemag.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > This is special treatment reserved for anyone who is
> > classed as "press".
>
> That is my best guess as well.
See my other posts regarding this. Tom you are also well aware that one of
the other magazines objected to the ARM Club getting it becuase Peter
Jennings was an NUJ member, etc.. We disagreed with that view, and supported
you.
>
> > It was just rather ironic that, having excluded
> > magazines from the exhibitors' prize draw, the winners
> > were The ARM Club who publish a magazine.
>
> A restriction that as far as I know wasn't mentioned beforehand
> even ignoring the fact that we consider ourselves a user group
> rather than a magazine.
Then ask Ralph Sillet who was your Club contact, he was sent and email as
were all the exhibitors and possible exhibitors at the time.
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> In message <4c24a9e...@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
> John Cartmell <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <7f93a22...@loxley.compton.nu>, Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu>
> > wrote:
> > > In message <4c249c7...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> > > <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > > Before this version gets any further the exclusion was *very* clear
> > > > and I certainly knew of it well before the offer was announced - or
> > > > even finalised. It *certainly* was *not* an afterthought. The
> > > > Wakefield committee can confirm I am sure.
> >
> > > I'm not saying it wasn't, and the press release that somebody referred
> > > to is perfectly clear. I certainly wasn't aware of it when I arrived at
> > > Wakefield and was handed the club's draw ticket however.
> >
> > Presumably a result of the loose nature of a voluntary organisation like
> > the ARMClub. I'm sure Steve (AU) and Paul (Archive) understood the regs as
> > did I.
>
> To be honest, even if I had known I probably wouldn't have thought
> it odd when they handed me the ticket. I would just have assumed that
> they had decided we ere a user group rather than a magazine and that
> it was only the commercial magazines they intended to exclude.
At the time we took it to be the commercial press.
But when one of those magazines starting complaining not direct to us but
via MD several days after the show, we realised others did not think we
meant commercial press.
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
Stuart Winsor <stuart...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <3f43181c$0$11386$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>,
> <ne...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
> > AIUI (and this is just recolections of a conversation from many months
> > ago) the main aim of this restriction was to put the prize in the
> > hands of one of the small developers who otherwise wouldn't be able to
> > afford one.
>
> Well if that was the case it should have been resticted to developers only.
There were TWO different prizes. One was for joe Public - won by Peter Bell
to add to his collection!!
The other was for exhibitors (developers).
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
druck <ne...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2003 ne...@apdl.co.uk wrote:
> > Perhaps I can clarify this a bit more and suggest a reason why the
> > confusion arose.
> >
> > Like all exhibitors I was fully aware of the 'magazine' exclusion from
> > the draw. However, it wasn't until we arrived that we were told that
> > APDL would be excluded because we publish RISC World, and Virtual
> > Acorn would be excluded because Aaron is the Editor of RISC World.
> >
> > AIUI (and this is just recolections of a conversation from many months
> > ago) the main aim of this restriction was to put the prize in the
> > hands of one of the small developers who otherwise wouldn't be able to
> > afford one.
>
> Then it went exactly where it was intended. Tom is a small developer
> responsible for numerous useful programs, including the networking components
> for Remote Messenger and Messenger Server. He is exactly the sort of person
> MD should be cultivating if they want any software to take advantage of their
> platform.
Here, we agree. Others don't it appears.
[snip]
> > Obviously the ARM Club didn't check.
>
> It wasn't up to us to check, its up to the organsiers of the competition.
> They were quite happy to present us with the prize, it wasn't until a few
> days later someone decided they didn't like what happened.
I treated you as a club, but another magazine after the show objected to the
ARM Club getting it, becuase you produce a magazine.
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
Toby Smith <to...@armclub.org.uk> wrote:
> ne...@apdl.co.uk wrote:
>
> [snip]
> > Although the ARM Club might not have regarded themselves as 'a
> > magazine' obviously David Atkins did. Neither Aaron or myself thought
> > of ourselves as magazines either, since RISC World is not a major part
> > of our businesses, but to make sure we sought clarification, and were
> > told that we would be excluded. Obviously the ARM Club didn't check.
>
> I'd take the opinion that David Atkins (or who ever was organizing the
> draw tickets) didn't consider The Club to be a magazine. We're a user
> group and always have been. I'm sure that if we were to be considered
> 'press' and disqualified this would have come up at the ticket point, or
> at the reading out of the draw, or at least when Tom later collected the
> machine, which would have been a good point to bring up any objections.
The objection by the other magazine should have been raised at this time
agreed.
>
> We can assume from this that there were no objections at this stage, and
> the club certainly hasn't heard of any from Microdigital since. If they
> do have a problem, I'd invite them to contact Tom or myself so that
> things can be sorted out.
Here, you are simply wrong as you well know Toby, we emailed you just after
the show becuase MD had received a series of complaint emails about the ARM
Club getting the Exhibitors prize since you produced a 'professional'
magazine by a NUJ member (Peter Jennings).
I still have the email correspondence to back this up.
The matter was not fully resolved at the time AFAIAA and this might be why the
problem has occurred.
> I'm sure that our volunteer editor and member-contributors would have
> been quite chuffed if the Club magazine was considered good enough to
> rank alongside professional commercial publications such as those other
> magazines mentioned. We are a bunch of unpaid amateurs doing this for
> love rather than money, and as club chairman I am quite proud of that fact.
Seems one magazine did anyway! :-)
[snipped]
> As one community figure put it to me, the fact that the Omega was won by
> an organization known to be independent, unreliant on any form of
> advertising or co-marketing and 'staffed' by a one or two of the most
> knowledgeable people in this community seems a remarkable act of
> serendipity.
Regrettably not everyone thinks Druck is truely independent with his very well
known and vocal comments that everyone should buy an Iyonix regardless. But
lets not go down this road again.
[snipped advert]
--
Chris Hughes
Tom Hughes
Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> In message <yeklltp...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>
> Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
>
> > In message <cd04672...@paul.archivemag.co.uk>
> > Paul Beverley <pa...@archivemag.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > This is special treatment reserved for anyone who is
> > > classed as "press".
> >
> > That is my best guess as well.
>
> See my other posts regarding this. Tom you are also well aware that one of
> the other magazines objected to the ARM Club getting it becuase Peter
> Jennings was an NUJ member, etc.. We disagreed with that view, and supported
> you.
I'm well aware that somebody allegedly complained. I don't know for
sure that that is why MD have not answered any of my emails though.
Tom Hughes
Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> As the organisers of the show and awarder of the prizes, we could include or
> exclude who we wished, in agreement with MD who donated the 1st prizes. It
> was agreed to exclude the commercial press, ie. Archive, Acorn User, Acorn
> Publisher and RiscWorld. It appears MD may have felt the ARM Club were also
> doing a 'commercial' magazine because of their other commercial activities,
> we considered them to be a club for their members and if they won it (as
> they did) they would sort out a means to allow one of their members to
> actually own it, but they decided that a member of the ARM Club committee
> should 'look after it'. But thats their business.
We haven't actually decided what we will do with the machine in the
long term. I took it away from the show in order to review it, but
it will be up to the club committee what happens after that.
Of course that assumes that we can get it working again...
Peter Naulls
"Peter Jennings" <aou...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> Paul Beverley wrote:
> >
> > As David Atkins said at the Dutch show earlier in the
> > year, the press are "just doing it to line their pockets".
> >
> The free publicity provided by the press should be helping to line the
> pockets of those who make and sell the computer, unless they are stupid
> enough to foster the impression that they are not interested in supporting
> the machine.
Indeed. Furthermore, drobe.co.uk is an entirely non-commerical site,
which certainly _costs_ us to run (time and money), and we've given a
very large amount of free publicity to MD.
--
Peter Naulls - pe...@chocky.org | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The RISC OS Browser Issue - http://www.chocky.org/unix/browser.html
David Holden
On 22-Aug-2003, Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid>
wrote:
...and before the conspiracy theorists start, it wasn't me (RISC
World).
David Holden
Might I suggest that you write a _polite_ letter to David Atkins,
enclosing an SAE, pointing out that you did not regard the ARM club as
publishing a magazine and apologising for any misunderstanding (be
politic :-)) and asking if you can try to resolve the situation as you
really would like the machine to be in the best possible state so you
can report favorably upon it.
Banging on about it in usenet is not going to resolve anything. All
it's likely to do is attract MD bashing which will make things worse.
John Cartmell
[Snip]
> >another magazine after the show objected to the ARM Club getting it,
> > becuase you produce a magazine.
> ...and before the conspiracy theorists start, it wasn't me (RISC World).
Nor me (Acorn Publisher) ...
.. and next to deny it will be Paul B and it's starting to sound like
musical chairs. ;-)
Ray Dawson
<ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> > I'd take the opinion that David Atkins (or who ever was organizing
> > the draw tickets) didn't consider The Club to be a magazine. We're a
> > user group and always have been. I'm sure that if we were to be
> > considered 'press' and disqualified this would have come up at the
> > ticket point, or at the reading out of the draw, or at least when
> > Tom later collected the machine, which would have been a good point
> > to bring up any objections.
> The objection by the other magazine should have been raised at this
> time agreed.
The moral of this sorry tale seems to be "Don't buy an Omega if you don't
fulfil the criteria of a user set by MD". Otherwise you could end up
without support.
I suppose that this could include anyone who has 'upset' MD on previous
occasions with comments on usenet.
And it could happen after the event. If, like the Arm Club you are
supplied with an Omega, it seems like MD can change their mind later and
not support your new machine.
Ray D
--
Ray Dawson
r...@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
Peter Bell
John Cartmell <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <3f45c90a$0$15031$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>, <"David> wrote:
>
> [Snip]
>
> > >another magazine after the show objected to the ARM Club getting it,
> > > becuase you produce a magazine.
>
> > ...and before the conspiracy theorists start, it wasn't me (RISC World).
>
> Nor me (Acorn Publisher) ...
>
> .. and next to deny it will be Paul B and it's starting to sound like
> musical chairs. ;-)
There's /another/ Acorn magazine, beyond Eureka, RISC World, AP and
Archive? :o
--
Peter Bell - pe...@bellfamily.org.uk
Richard Kilpatrick
<t...@compton.nu> writes
>
>Of course that assumes that we can get it working again...
Why bother.
Personally, had I won the machine as a user, and given that I am a
writer, one of the first things I would have done - unless I was asked
to sign an NDA, which clearly no-one was - would have been to submit
detailed reviews of the machine to every interested publication in
existence and probably published a review online as well.
I'm sure that most other people who had one of the sodding things in
their hands would have done the same.
MD never cease to amaze me with their complete lack of PR skills.
Richard
--
Acorn 8-bits, 32-bits, some in bits... Amigas, ST/E |\ _,,,---,,_
YIS-805, iBook, G4, Dell P410, Sinclairs, ACW/ABC210 /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
http://www.dmc12.demon.co.uk/retrotech/ |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'::.
Music? http://www.mp3.com/RichardKilpatrick/ '----''(_/--' `-'\_)Morticia
Richard Kilpatrick
writes
>To repeat Peter's original point; anyone wishing to join the club and
>receive all the benefits of membership, along with Tom's technical
>review, can find all the relevant details on our website
>http://www.armclub.org.uk/membership/ Hopefully we'll be able to
>continue bringing members information about how the Omega's is progressing.
Maybe the reason why this has arisen is due to the fact that clearly,
the ARM club is attempting to profit by increasing the membership on the
basis that people will join to read said review.
Put paid to that. Publish the review on Drobe.
Peter Naulls
Richard Kilpatrick <ric...@dmc12.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Maybe the reason why this has arisen is due to the fact that clearly,
> the ARM club is attempting to profit by increasing the membership on the
> basis that people will join to read said review.
>
> Put paid to that. Publish the review on Drobe.
But that's no good either :-) When Ian Jeffray saw the machine in
Edinburgh last year and did a subsequent review, MD accused us of being
a "commerical website". This is despite the fact that drobe.co.uk of
course costs real money to run, and there's no profit made - except to
MD from publicising their machine.
--
Peter Naulls - pe...@chocky.org | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RISC OS C Programming | http://www.riscos.info/
Toby Smith
> In message <8bj0ib...@10.0.20.1>
> Toby Smith <to...@armclub.org.uk> wrote:
> > ne...@apdl.co.uk wrote:
[snip]
> > the club certainly hasn't heard of any from Microdigital since. If they
> > do have a problem, I'd invite them to contact Tom or myself so that
> > things can be sorted out.
>
> Here, you are simply wrong as you well know Toby, we emailed you just after
> the show becuase MD had received a series of complaint emails about the ARM
> Club getting the Exhibitors prize since you produced a 'professional'
> magazine by a NUJ member (Peter Jennings).
I know that there has been a personal dialogue between the ARM Club
and WROC on this matter. As I said in that correspondance, I'd wholly
back your original decision that we're very different from a magazine.
Unfortunately this kind of silly thing causes issues for both of us,
as well as not reflecting well on the original press member who
complained to MD.
Peter is a retired journalist, and it's probably those skills that
helped him put himself forward, as a member, to coordinate the
magazine for us. It's still written by members, and hardly constitutes
commercial publication. Similarly the Club Treasurer happens to be a
qualified accountant, but this doens't transform us into a financial
institution.
My point, however, is that we've received no comment from Microdigital
themselves on the matter. We have no comment as to why support
questions and queries go unanswered, which does not make me happy.
Surely they want to get information about the machine out to potential
buyers? This kind of poor behaviour does them no good, and does not
help the kind of independant analysis and comparision between the
available new machines that potential purchasers want to see.
[snip]
> > As one community figure put it to me, the fact that the Omega was won by
> > an organization known to be independent, unreliant on any form of
> > advertising or co-marketing and 'staffed' by a one or two of the most
> > knowledgeable people in this community seems a remarkable act of
> > serendipity.
>
> Regrettably not everyone thinks Druck is truely independent with his very well
> known and vocal comments that everyone should buy an Iyonix regardless. But
> lets not go down this road again.
I'm sure Druck would agree that his position on this topic is well
known. Hence he sensibly did not put himself forward to do the review.
Tom subsequently worked on the machine and produced what I think
members will agree is a very balanced factual report, going to great
efforts not to be coloured by the lack of support.
Richard Kilpatrick
<pe...@chocky.org> writes
>But that's no good either :-) When Ian Jeffray saw the machine in
>Edinburgh last year and did a subsequent review, MD accused us of being
>a "commerical website". This is despite the fact that drobe.co.uk of
>course costs real money to run, and there's no profit made - except to
>MD from publicising their machine.
Yargh.
Remind again me why it is people even care about MD's machine - other
than wondering where their deposits are?
druck
This is one of the reasons why I did not offer write the Omega review or take
any part in its production (I was on the beach at the time). You can be
assured that Tom's review is 100% his own opinion, and he certainly wouldn't
be swayed by anything I had to say.
druck
> In article <8bj0ib...@10.0.20.1>, Toby Smith <to...@armclub.org.uk>
> writes
>> To repeat Peter's original point; anyone wishing to join the club and
>> receive all the benefits of membership, along with Tom's technical
>> review, can find all the relevant details on our website
>> http://www.armclub.org.uk/membership/ Hopefully we'll be able to continue
>> bringing members information about how the Omega's is progressing.
>
> Maybe the reason why this has arisen is due to the fact that clearly, the
> ARM club is attempting to profit by increasing the membership on the basis
> that people will join to read said review.
Being a non profit making organisation, we don't make any money regardless of
the number of members. Every penny of members subscriptions and product
royalties goes on providing services to the members. We'd obviously like more
members, but its they who would benefit, not us.
news
druck <ne...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> > Maybe the reason why this has arisen is due to the fact that clearly,
> > the ARM club is attempting to profit by increasing the membership on
> > the basis that people will join to read said review.
> Being a non profit making organisation, we don't make any money
> regardless of the number of members. Every penny of members subscriptions
> and product royalties goes on providing services to the members. We'd
> obviously like more members, but its they who would benefit, not us.
Worth every penny and more of the 15 GBP membership fee. Best value of all
my renewal cheques.
Regards Ron.
Chris Hughes
Ray Dawson <R...@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <58f1ae25...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
> <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> > > I'd take the opinion that David Atkins (or who ever was organizing
> > > the draw tickets) didn't consider The Club to be a magazine. We're a
> > > user group and always have been. I'm sure that if we were to be
> > > considered 'press' and disqualified this would have come up at the
> > > ticket point, or at the reading out of the draw, or at least when
> > > Tom later collected the machine, which would have been a good point
> > > to bring up any objections.
>
> > The objection by the other magazine should have been raised at this
> > time agreed.
>
> The moral of this sorry tale seems to be "Don't buy an Omega if you don't
> fulfil the criteria of a user set by MD". Otherwise you could end up
> without support.
What are you on about? the objection came from one of the 'commercial'
magazines not MD. So don't buy that magazine. :-)
The moral is the magazine complained several days after the show about it
and not directly to us. The draw was done independently, in fact the young
lady from the security company did the exhibitor draw and the Public one
was done by the boss!!!
[snipped]
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
Richard Kilpatrick <ric...@dmc12.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <b6c3d32...@loxley.compton.nu>, Tom Hughes
> <t...@compton.nu> writes
> >
> >Of course that assumes that we can get it working again...
>
> Why bother.
>
> Personally, had I won the machine as a user, and given that I am a
> writer, one of the first things I would have done - unless I was asked
> to sign an NDA, which clearly no-one was - would have been to submit
> detailed reviews of the machine to every interested publication in
> existence and probably published a review online as well.
The ARM Club won it as an exhibitor not a user. Peter Bell won the user one.
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> In message <5cb8ac25...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>
> Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>
> > In message <yeklltp...@audi.uk.cyberscience.com>
> > Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> >
> > > In message <cd04672...@paul.archivemag.co.uk>
> > > Paul Beverley <pa...@archivemag.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is special treatment reserved for anyone who is
> > > > classed as "press".
> > >
> > > That is my best guess as well.
> >
> > See my other posts regarding this. Tom you are also well aware that one of
> > the other magazines objected to the ARM Club getting it becuase Peter
> > Jennings was an NUJ member, etc.. We disagreed with that view, and supported
> > you.
>
> I'm well aware that somebody allegedly complained. I don't know for
> sure that that is why MD have not answered any of my emails though.
I would hope that is not the reason.
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
to...@armclub.org.uk (Toby Smith) wrote:
> Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message news:<58f1ae25...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>...
> > In message <8bj0ib...@10.0.20.1>
> > Toby Smith <to...@armclub.org.uk> wrote:
> > > ne...@apdl.co.uk wrote:
> [snip]
> > > We can assume from this that there were no objections at this stage, and
> > > the club certainly hasn't heard of any from Microdigital since. If they
> > > do have a problem, I'd invite them to contact Tom or myself so that
> > > things can be sorted out.
> >
> > Here, you are simply wrong as you well know Toby, we emailed you just after
> > the show becuase MD had received a series of complaint emails about the ARM
> > Club getting the Exhibitors prize since you produced a 'professional'
> > magazine by a NUJ member (Peter Jennings).
>
>
> I know that there has been a personal dialogue between the ARM Club
> and WROC on this matter. As I said in that correspondance, I'd wholly
> back your original decision that we're very different from a magazine.
> Unfortunately this kind of silly thing causes issues for both of us,
> as well as not reflecting well on the original press member who
> complained to MD.
Here we totally agreed with you. It should have been raised at the time not
days afterwards which to me was sour grapes. But the harm was done.
I know DA was upset about all this.
>
> Peter is a retired journalist, and it's probably those skills that
> helped him put himself forward, as a member, to coordinate the
> magazine for us. It's still written by members, and hardly constitutes
> commercial publication. Similarly the Club Treasurer happens to be a
> qualified accountant, but this doens't transform us into a financial
> institution.
You use the skills of your members in running the club as we do.
> My point, however, is that we've received no comment from Microdigital
> themselves on the matter. We have no comment as to why support
> questions and queries go unanswered, which does not make me happy.
I can understand that. But have no answer. :-(
> Surely they want to get information about the machine out to potential
> buyers? This kind of poor behaviour does them no good, and does not
> help the kind of independant analysis and comparision between the
> available new machines that potential purchasers want to see.
I would hope so, but am well aware as you will be about some of the silly
and sometimes wild stories that popped up. That might make them not want to
talk to the press directly. Personally I think they should, but its not our
computer or company, so its their decision.
>
>
> [snip]
> > > As one community figure put it to me, the fact that the Omega was won by
> > > an organization known to be independent, unreliant on any form of
> > > advertising or co-marketing and 'staffed' by a one or two of the most
> > > knowledgeable people in this community seems a remarkable act of
> > > serendipity.
> >
> > Regrettably not everyone thinks Druck is truely independent with his very well
> > known and vocal comments that everyone should buy an Iyonix regardless. But
> > lets not go down this road again.
>
> I'm sure Druck would agree that his position on this topic is well
> known. Hence he sensibly did not put himself forward to do the review.
> Tom subsequently worked on the machine and produced what I think
> members will agree is a very balanced factual report, going to great
> efforts not to be coloured by the lack of support.
>
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> In message <334fac25...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>
> Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>
> > As the organisers of the show and awarder of the prizes, we could include or
> > exclude who we wished, in agreement with MD who donated the 1st prizes. It
> > was agreed to exclude the commercial press, ie. Archive, Acorn User, Acorn
> > Publisher and RiscWorld. It appears MD may have felt the ARM Club were also
> > doing a 'commercial' magazine because of their other commercial activities,
> > we considered them to be a club for their members and if they won it (as
> > they did) they would sort out a means to allow one of their members to
> > actually own it, but they decided that a member of the ARM Club committee
> > should 'look after it'. But thats their business.
>
> We haven't actually decided what we will do with the machine in the
> long term. I took it away from the show in order to review it, but
> it will be up to the club committee what happens after that.
Thats interesting. Why not raffle round the members based on membership
numbers or something like that?
>
> Of course that assumes that we can get it working again...
Hopefully you will all the technical experts you have. :-)
--
Chris Hughes
Michael Gilbert
<URL:mailto:ne...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 22 Aug 2003 Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>
> > In message <8bj0ib...@10.0.20.1>
> > Toby Smith <to...@armclub.org.uk> wrote:
> > > As one community figure put it to me, the fact that the Omega was won by
> > > an organization known to be independent, unreliant on any form of
> > > advertising or co-marketing and 'staffed' by a one or two of the most
> > > knowledgeable people in this community seems a remarkable act of
> > > serendipity.
> >
> > Regrettably not everyone thinks Druck is truely independent with his very
> > well known and vocal comments that everyone should buy an Iyonix
> > regardless. But lets not go down this road again.
>
> This is one of the reasons why I did not offer write the Omega review or take
> any part in its production (I was on the beach at the time). You can be
> assured that Tom's review is 100% his own opinion, and he certainly wouldn't
> be swayed by anything I had to say.
>
having an opinion? Even if it isn't yours. If the Omega is a killer
tool, then I would expect druck to say so.
Personally, I think the whole Microdigital saga, from Mico on, has been
a fiasco. Were they producing something for a market other than this
one, they would have been hauled over the coals a lot. I would love to
see their cashflow forecasts.
--
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
OK, so there's the Trident in Bangor
Ray Dawson
<ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> > The moral of this sorry tale seems to be "Don't buy an Omega if you
> > don't fulfil the criteria of a user set by MD". Otherwise you could
> > end up without support.
> What are you on about? the objection came from one of the 'commercial'
> magazines not MD. So don't buy that magazine. :-)
But it is MD who are apparently not supplying the support.
druck
> In message <4c25e1...@raydawson.com>
> Ray Dawson <R...@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <58f1ae25...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
>> <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>>>> I'd take the opinion that David Atkins (or who ever was organizing the
>>>> draw tickets) didn't consider The Club to be a magazine. We're a user
>>>> group and always have been. I'm sure that if we were to be considered
>>>> 'press' and disqualified this would have come up at the ticket point, or
>>>> at the reading out of the draw, or at least when Tom later collected the
>>>> machine, which would have been a good point to bring up any objections.
>>
>>> The objection by the other magazine should have been raised at this time
>>> agreed.
>>
>> The moral of this sorry tale seems to be "Don't buy an Omega if you don't
>> fulfil the criteria of a user set by MD". Otherwise you could end up
>> without support.
>
> What are you on about? the objection came from one of the 'commercial'
> magazines not MD. So don't buy that magazine. :-)
If it was the magaize that was refusing to talk to us, we wouldn't be loosing
a lot of sleep. But we have a non working machine and would like some help
from the manufacturer.
druck
> Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
>> We haven't actually decided what we will do with the machine in the long
>> term. I took it away from the show in order to review it, but it will be
>> up to the club committee what happens after that.
>
> Thats interesting. Why not raffle round the members based on membership
> numbers or something like that?
We had considered this, but don't think the currently non working machine
would be a very welcome prize. Even if we did fix it the real luck of the
draw would be if MD were willing to offer the new owner any support.
>> Of course that assumes that we can get it working again...
>
> Hopefully you will all the technical experts you have. :-)
I have offered to go round to Tom's to see if I can adjust it slighly with
my precision lump hammer, but he has so far declined :*)
Steven Pampling
John Cartmell <jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <3f45c90a$0$15031$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>, <"David> wrote:
> [Snip]
> > >another magazine after the show objected to the ARM Club getting it,
> > > becuase you produce a magazine.
> > ...and before the conspiracy theorists start, it wasn't me (RISC World).
> Nor me (Acorn Publisher) ...
> .. and next to deny it will be Paul B and it's starting to sound like
> musical chairs. ;-)
A touch more like russian roulette and we seem to be running out of empty
chambers.
As Understood here there seems to be a prime candidate (shooting victim?)
Steven Pampling
<ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> All exhibitors got an email and all potential exhibitors got it as well.
> It was also published on drobe, etc..
Speaking as someone who deals with stall holders at the Great British Beer
Festival I can say without fear of contradiction that it's a rare beast of
an exhibitor where all the people manning the stand know even the basic
rules for the stand as laid down by the show organisers.
The show organisers try to make sure the information is given, but short of
lecturing each stall holders staff as they arrive that just doesn't happen.
Basically they don't talk to each other often enough or long enough.
In the grand scheme it doesn't actually matter much. Note the word "much"
Richard Kilpatrick
<ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> writes
>The ARM Club won it as an exhibitor not a user.
And that makes a difference how? Presumably exhibitors are people too,
and would probably use the computer. We're all users at heart (baby).
>Peter Bell won the user one.
Peter, where's t'review!
;)
Richard Kilpatrick
<ne...@druck.freeuk.com> writes
>We had considered this, but don't think the currently non working machine
>would be a very welcome prize. Even if we did fix it the real luck of the
>draw would be if MD were willing to offer the new owner any support.
I'll join to enter that competition. I reckon another failed Acorn
doorstop would look good next to my ACW ;)
Stuart Winsor
Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> Hopefully you will all the technical experts you have. :-)
As a potential purchaser I would be very worried if they can't.
Stuart.
--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | /
| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ stuart...@argonet.co.uk
101 uses for a Pentium: No1 - A slow cooker.
Stuart Winsor
Richard Kilpatrick <ric...@dmc12.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <a6863926...@druck.freeuk.net>, druck
> <ne...@druck.freeuk.com> writes
> >We had considered this, but don't think the currently non working machine
> >would be a very welcome prize. Even if we did fix it the real luck of the
> >draw would be if MD were willing to offer the new owner any support.
> I'll join to enter that competition. I reckon another failed Acorn
> doorstop would look good next to my ACW ;)
I need to renew my sub. I normally renew at Wakefield but the reminder
hadn't arrived and although it came a few days later I haven't got around
to doing anything about it. Archive sub is well overdue too.
The Doctor
druck <ne...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 23 Aug 2003 Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> > In message <b6c3d32...@loxley.compton.nu>
> > Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
> >> We haven't actually decided what we will do with the machine in the long
> >> term. I took it away from the show in order to review it, but it will be
> >> up to the club committee what happens after that.
> >
> > Thats interesting. Why not raffle round the members based on membership
> > numbers or something like that?
>
> We had considered this, but don't think the currently non working machine
> would be a very welcome prize. Even if we did fix it the real luck of the
> draw would be if MD were willing to offer the new owner any support.
>
> >> Of course that assumes that we can get it working again...
> >
> > Hopefully you will all the technical experts you have. :-)
>
> I have offered to go round to Tom's to see if I can adjust it slighly with
> my precision lump hammer, but he has so far declined :*)
>
Did Acorn (many years ago!) set up some sort of stand at one of the
Acorn world shows, the purpose of which was to stuff a PC through a
letterbox (by smashing it into small pieces first of course)?
You could do something similar at the next show.
Cheers!
--
Graham
The RISC OS software site - www.thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk/software
The RISC OS hardware guide - www.thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk/hardware
Deathzone Emulation - www.thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk/emulation
The Main Control Room - www.thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk
Paul Beverley
Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> In message <e473d02a.03082...@posting.google.com>
> to...@armclub.org.uk (Toby Smith) wrote:
>
> > I know that there has been a personal dialogue between the ARM Club
> > and WROC on this matter. As I said in that correspondance, I'd wholly
> > back your original decision that we're very different from a magazine.
> > Unfortunately this kind of silly thing causes issues for both of us,
> > as well as not reflecting well on the original press member who
> > complained to MD.
>
> Here we totally agreed with you. It should have been raised at the time not
> days afterwards which to me was sour grapes. But the harm was done.
>
> I know DA was upset about all this.
But we've yet to find out who this phantom complainer is.
Does anyone know? Who was it who so upset Mr Atkins?
All the best,
Paul.
Paul Beverley, Editor, Living with Technology: http://www.livtech.co.uk/
+44-(0)1603-722544 Archive Magazine: http://www.archivemag.co.uk/
Paul Beverley
Richard Kilpatrick <ric...@dmc12.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <8bj0ib...@10.0.20.1>, Toby Smith <to...@armclub.org.uk>
> writes
> >To repeat Peter's original point; anyone wishing to join the club and
> >receive all the benefits of membership, along with Tom's technical
> >review, can find all the relevant details on our website
> >http://www.armclub.org.uk/membership/ Hopefully we'll be able to
> >continue bringing members information about how the Omega's is progressing.
>
> Maybe the reason why this has arisen is due to the fact that clearly,
> the ARM club is attempting to profit by increasing the membership on the
> basis that people will join to read said review.
I for one don't mind in the least if more people join
the ARM Club.
I'm certain that no-one's going to cancel their
Archive subscription in order to join ARM Club as an
alternative - and I can't believe that any of the
other magazine proprietors would take it as a threat
to their magazines.
Paul Beverley
"David Holden" ne...@apdl.co.uk wrote:
>
> On 22-Aug-2003, Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > In message <b2980a25...@druck.freeuk.net>
> > druck <ne...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> >
> > > It wasn't up to us to check, its up to the organsiers of the
> > > competition.
> > > They were quite happy to present us with the prize, it wasn't
> > > until a
> > > few days later someone decided they didn't like what happened.
> >
> > I treated you as a club, but another magazine after the show
> > objected
> > to the ARM Club getting it, becuase you produce a magazine.
>
> ...and before the conspiracy theorists start, it wasn't me (RISC
> World).
It wasn't me either.
I asked Steve Turnbull at the time, and he denied all
knowledge of any complaints.
I asked John Cartmell too, and he said it wasn't him.
That only leaves Richard Hallas (Foundation) and he's
not the complaining sort in my experience.
Stuart Winsor
The Doctor <thed...@thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> Did Acorn (many years ago!) set up some sort of stand at one of the
> Acorn world shows, the purpose of which was to stuff a PC through a
> letterbox (by smashing it into small pieces first of course)?
They certainly did - I watched the fun
> You could do something similar at the next show.
> Cheers!
> -
That would realy put the cat among the pigeons!
Peter Jennings
> I for one don't mind in the least if more people join
> the ARM Club.
>
> I'm certain that no-one's going to cancel their
> Archive subscription in order to join ARM Club as an
> alternative - and I can't believe that any of the
> other magazine proprietors would take it as a threat
> to their magazines.
>
the commercial magazines and, in fact, supports them as valuable fellow
members of the RISC OS community.
We have, at various times, given the Editors of all the other magazines
generous space in Eureka to write an article to inform our members what
their magazine offers and to encourage any who may wish to subscribe it.
Peter Jennings
eur...@armclub.org.uk
Editor of Eureka, the magazine for members of The ARM Club
Philip Ludlam
The Doctor <thed...@thedeathzone.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <a6863926...@druck.freeuk.net>
> druck <ne...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
>
>> On 23 Aug 2003 Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>> > In message <b6c3d32...@loxley.compton.nu>
>> > Tom Hughes <t...@compton.nu> wrote:
>> >> We haven't actually decided what we will do with the machine in the long
>> >> term. I took it away from the show in order to review it, but it will be
>> >> up to the club committee what happens after that.
>> >
>> > Thats interesting. Why not raffle round the members based on membership
>> > numbers or something like that?
>>
>> We had considered this, but don't think the currently non working machine
>> would be a very welcome prize. Even if we did fix it the real luck of the
>> draw would be if MD were willing to offer the new owner any support.
>>
>> >> Of course that assumes that we can get it working again...
>> >
>> > Hopefully you will all the technical experts you have. :-)
>>
>> I have offered to go round to Tom's to see if I can adjust it slighly with
>> my precision lump hammer, but he has so far declined :*)
>>
>Did Acorn (many years ago!) set up some sort of stand at one of the
>Acorn world shows, the purpose of which was to stuff a PC through a
>letterbox (by smashing it into small pieces first of course)?
AW '94? or something. I remember being there though.
>You could do something similar at the next show.
Guildford's the next show.
Go on Dave, Go on Dave, (you know you want to!)
LOL. ROTLMAO
Yours,
Phil L.
--
http://www.philipnet.com http://director.sourceforge.net
i ou a uea i e a o ie e a o a a oue oae
Tim Hill
Jennings <aou...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> Paul Beverley wrote:
> > I for one don't mind in the least if more people join the ARM Club.
> >
> > I'm certain that no-one's going to cancel their Archive subscription
> > in order to join ARM Club as an alternative - and I can't believe
> > that any of the other magazine proprietors would take it as a threat
> > to their magazines.
> >
> Eureka, The ARM Club's magazine, is certainly not in competition with
> any of the commercial magazines and, in fact, supports them as valuable
> fellow members of the RISC OS community.
That may be your perception but this potential magazine reader has to
weigh up where to place limited funds and whether to choose either
Archive, AU, Eureka, etc.
So, as far as my custom is concerned, you certainly /are/ in competition
with the other RISC OS magazines and to think you are not is a form of
arrogance I do not see often.
When there is a marketplace of so few magazines whose content differs
little (much of it seems to be 'adapted' from the net anyway) I only buy
one now. So, which is to be when my AU subscription comes up for renewal
for the last time? It may be Eureka.
--
To prevent spam and worms, mailto: 1...@invalid.org.uk will not work.
To contact me and obtain your own spam-proof address:
http://www.invalid.org.uk/
... "To thee I do commend my watchful soul, ere I let fall the windows of mine eyes; sleeping and waking, O, defend me still" Richd III, Act v, Sc.3
Peter Jennings
>
>> Eureka, The ARM Club's magazine, is certainly not in competition with
>> any of the commercial magazines and, in fact, supports them as
>> valuable fellow members of the RISC OS community.
>
> That may be your perception but this potential magazine reader has to
> weigh up where to place limited funds and whether to choose either
> Archive, AU, Eureka, etc.
>
> So, as far as my custom is concerned, you certainly /are/ in
> competition with the other RISC OS magazines and to think you are not
> is a form of arrogance I do not see often.
>
> When there is a marketplace of so few magazines whose content differs
> little (much of it seems to be 'adapted' from the net anyway) I only
> buy one now. So, which is to be when my AU subscription comes up for
> renewal for the last time? It may be Eureka.
You don't subscribe to Eureka. It comes at no extra charge as one of the
services you get when you are a member of The ARM Club.
We freely provide information about the commercial magazines you may wish to
subscribe to. How is that arrogance?
Tim Hill
Peter Jennings <aou...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> Tim Hill wrote:
[snip]
> You don't subscribe to Eureka. It comes at no extra charge as one of
> the services you get when you are a member of The ARM Club.
Think "customer". I give 'you' money, 'you' send me a magazine. How you
handle the mechanics of this internally is of little or no interest to
customers.
--
To prevent spam and worms, mailto: 1...@invalid.org.uk will not work.
To contact me and obtain your own spam-proof address:
http://www.invalid.org.uk/
... "A rarer spirit never did steer humanity" Ant & Cleo, Act v, Sc.1
Peter Jennings
> In article <3f489005$0$961$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>,
> Peter Jennings <aou...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>> Tim Hill wrote:
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
>> You don't subscribe to Eureka. It comes at no extra charge as one of
>> the services you get when you are a member of The ARM Club.
>
> Think "customer". I give 'you' money, 'you' send me a magazine. How
> you handle the mechanics of this internally is of little or no
> interest to customers.
If you don't know the difference between buying a magazine and joining a
club I can't help you further.
--
Peter Jennings
jenn...@aaug.net
Domino
<news.b...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <80891626...@druck.freeuk.net>, druck
> <ne...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> > > Maybe the reason why this has arisen is due to the fact that
> > > clearly, the ARM club is attempting to profit by increasing the
> > > membership on the basis that people will join to read said review.
> > Being a non profit making organisation, we don't make any money
> > regardless of the number of members. Every penny of members
> > subscriptions and product royalties goes on providing services to the
> > members. We'd obviously like more members, but its they who would
> > benefit, not us.
> Worth every penny and more of the 15 GBP membership fee. Best value of
> all my renewal cheques.
> Regards Ron.
I fully agree, and if I were not a subscriber to these newsgroups, I would
have read the review with interest and with little idea of the politics
behind the scenes. I thought the review was a very positive and supportive
article, highlighting some technical issues (which we would all assume
would/could be fixed shortly), but the lack of technical support for
whatever reason has certainly put me off the thought of trying to buy an
Omega for the time being.
Domino
--
_
| \ _ ._ _ o._ _
|_/(_)| | ||| |(_)
dom...@btinternet.com
I/O, I/O, it's off to work we go...
Domino
Tim Hill <1...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <3f489005$0$961$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>,
> Peter Jennings <aou...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > Tim Hill wrote:
> [snip]
> > You don't subscribe to Eureka. It comes at no extra charge as one of
> > the services you get when you are a member of The ARM Club.
> Think "customer". I give 'you' money, 'you' send me a magazine. How you
> handle the mechanics of this internally is of little or no interest to
> customers.
I see where you're coming from, but I joined the Arm Club earlier this
year because I had technical difficulties with my RPC. I had struggled for
several months with limping hardware, then subscribed for the technical
support. Within 2 emails from the tech support team, my RPC was running
better than it had before, and all rogue problems were solved.
I regard everything from now on (including Eureka) as freebies, as the
technical support was worth far more than the dosh I stumped up!
Joining a User club is different from subscribing to a commercial
magazine... I'm sure I could have had some help had I emailed the editors
of virtually any of the RISC OS publications, but not to the same level of
support as I was provided by my Fellow Members :-)
Domino
--
_
| \ _ ._ _ o._ _
|_/(_)| | ||| |(_)
dom...@btinternet.com
I just need to borrow enough to tide me over until I need more.
Steve Fryatt
<4c277...@invalid.org.uk>:
> In article <3f489005$0$961$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>,
> Peter Jennings <aou...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > Tim Hill wrote:
[Is "Eureka" a commercial magazine?]
> > You don't subscribe to Eureka. It comes at no extra charge as one of
> > the services you get when you are a member of The ARM Club.
>
> Think "customer". I give 'you' money, 'you' send me a magazine. How you
> handle the mechanics of this internally is of little or no interest to
> customers.
On that basis, you're saying that members of user groups (such as WROCC,
RONWUG or ROUGOL, to give examples) are really subscribing to the club
newsletters and not paying to attend meetings and gain membership
benefits. Have you actually thought your point through?
--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/
* I like work. It fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours.
Ralph Corderoy
> > > You don't subscribe to Eureka. It comes at no extra charge as one
> > > of the services you get when you are a member of The ARM Club.
> >
> > Think "customer". I give 'you' money, 'you' send me a magazine. How
> > you handle the mechanics of this internally is of little or no
> > interest to customers.
>
> If you don't know the difference between buying a magazine and joining
> a club I can't help you further.
When I `joined' the ARM Club many years ago it was purely to receive the
magazine. The other benefits I never used and weren't what attracted
me. I was already a subscriber to Archive, and AU, and wanted to see
what the ARM Club magazine was like.
So I, as a customer, was giving you money to send me the magazine. You
made me a `member' of the club, but I didn't care and it didn't mean I
had a share, or voting rights, etc., IIRC.
That said, I don't think the ARM Club should have been excluded from a
`no magazine publisher' prize draw; they're a club. But I can see
above guy's point.
Cheers,
--
Ralph Corderoy. http://inputplus.co.uk/ralph/ http://troff.org/