Fantasies without Prophecies
Neal Ulen
form of a prophecy?
Just curious, because I don't think I've run across one yet. :-)
--
Neal E. Ulen (ne...@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu)
VL Oliver
: Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
: form of a prophecy?
: Just curious, because I don't think I've run across one yet. :-)
If you want to include Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series, I think
she has a couple without a prophecy. Other than that i can't think of one.
Tor.
LIfe like stew. You never know what you are getting into.
Sea Wasp
>Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
>form of a prophecy?
Guess it depends on what you call "prophecy".
Several of the Narnia books don't have direct prophecies in
them (The Magician's Nephew, Voyage of the Dawn Treader, etc).
Many Conan adventures didn't have no stinkin' prophecies.
Donaldson's Mordant's Need series had only the one mirror
scrying, which isn't really a prophecy in the ordinary sense.
The Chronicles of Amber had no prophecies that I can remember.
Lord of the Rings had no CENTRAL prophecies that I can recall.
There was the one sideline about the Nazgul whom "no mortal man" could
slay, but that was hardly central to the plot. The major action seemed
to have no predestined line.
The Shannara series didn't seem to have actual prophecies either.
Allanon KNEW a great deal about what was going on, but most of the
time he couldn't really foretell things. The Grimpond *did* make
prophecies, but they weren't always central.
Daley's Coramonde dualogy didn't have any prophecies.
I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting...
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Alex Irvine
> Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
> form of a prophecy?
>
> Just curious, because I don't think I've run across one yet. :-)
_The Anubis Gates_, Tim Powers (also most of his other stuff)
Give me a bit, I'll think of more....
Alex
The Wandering Jew
: Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
: form of a prophecy?
: Just curious, because I don't think I've run across one yet. :-)
Almost all "Unknown"/rationalized/magic-as-learnable-technology fantasy
would qualify. Prophesies did not become popular until the rise of the
quest school of fantasy in the late 70's.
--
aha...@clark.net Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
Robert Conquest's Second Law
Every organization appears to be headed by secret agents of its opponents
Chad R Orzel
Neal Ulen <ne...@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu> wrote:
>Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
>form of a prophecy?
>
>Just curious, because I don't think I've run across one yet. :-)
>
Hell.
_Tigana_ by GG Kay has a "viewing" of the future at one point, but I'm
not sure that would count. _Song for Arbonne_ doesn't have any real major
prophetic stuff. They know the locations of a few things ahead of time,
but it's not a prophecy in the usual sense.
Peter S. Beagle's stuff doesn't contain much in the way of prophecy, that
I can recall. There's some in _The Last Unicorn_ but not a lot. Definitely
none in _A Fine and Private Place_ and I don't recall any in _The
Innkeeper's Song._
There are lots of examples- you just have to think about it for a while.
Later,
OilCan
Thor Iverson
> Lord of the Rings had no CENTRAL prophecies that I can recall.
>There was the one sideline about the Nazgul whom "no mortal man" could
>slay, but that was hardly central to the plot. The major action seemed
>to have no predestined line.
The hunt for the ring (and the bearer) was instigated by a prophecy to Boromir
and Faramir. Aragorn's trustworthiness was supported by a prophecy repeated
in Gandalf's letter to Frodo at Bree. The role of Aragorn's sword was
prophesized. It was suggested at the council of Elrond that the hobbits were
destined to play the role they played in the destruction of the ring.
Aragorn foresaw Gandalf's "death" in Moria. Several prophecies described
Aragorn's return to Gondor. Gandalf foresaw Gollum's role in the quest.
Arwen assembled Aragorn's flag, knowing that he would need it. Galadriel
foresaw Saruman's eventual slide into darkness, and Saruman foresaw Frodo's
fate before his death. There are more, of course--and a few of them are
relatively central.
Thor
Edmund Henry Wong
>form of a prophecy?
>
>Just curious, because I don't think I've run across one yet. :-)
I think that most of the Swords books by Fritz Leiber don't have
prophecy. They might be thrown in occasionally but not as a rule.
>--
>Neal E. Ulen (ne...@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu)
>
--
_edmund h. wong__________________
| strm...@uclink2.berkeley.edu | Hypocrisy is the way of the world
| edw...@ocf.berkeley.edu |
|_ed...@ctp.org________________| Conform!
Tim Iverson
>form of a prophecy?
>
>Just curious, because I don't think I've run across one yet. :-)
I assume you mean classic legend-style fantasy (there are lots and lots of
non-prophecy fantasy novels out there - eg. all of Emma Bull, most of Megan
Lindholm, Brust's _Jhereg_ books, McCaffrey's Dragon books, etc. ad naseum).
As far as the classic style goes, I don't think _A_Wizard_of_Earthsea_ has
any prophecies. There's a lot of divination of *current* events and what
they portend, but nothing on the order of 'when doves eat flesh and oysters
grow teeth, a child will be born that ...'.
A better question would be, "Is there any deep fantasy that includes a
prophecy". Every fantasy with a prophecy that I can recall right now seems
to be rather sophomoric (Donaldson, Eddings, Jordan, Feist, ...). I had
fun reading most of these, it's just that I wouldn't say they required or
instigated any deep thought - about ankle deep, say. My definition of
'deep' would demand a thinking depth from navel high on up - think about the
effort it takes to *wade* through water that high as compared to the effort
it takes to fully understand the novel.
- Tim Iverson
ive...@lionheart.com
Jeffrey Trigilio
[munch]
: A better question would be, "Is there any deep fantasy that includes a
: prophecy". Every fantasy with a prophecy that I can recall right now seems
: to be rather sophomoric (Donaldson, Eddings, Jordan, Feist, ...). I had
: fun reading most of these, it's just that I wouldn't say they required or
: instigated any deep thought - about ankle deep, say. My definition of
: 'deep' would demand a thinking depth from navel high on up - think about the
: effort it takes to *wade* through water that high as compared to the effort
: it takes to fully understand the novel.
Speaking of my own opinion, this is why I am fan of both Science Fiction
and Fantasy. When I want escapism, to relaxingly wade through what could
have been, i read fantasy. Usually, I like fantasy to be a good story, period.
I PERSONALLY am not looking for redeeming social content, or difficult
conceptual theories [other than p[lot speculation]. I want a good story.
I want tidbits of what COULD be or MIGHT be in the books to come. This
whets my taste for storyline, storytelling, speculation, etc.
When I want to probe into my imagination, challenge my intellectual
capabilitie, modes of reasoning, enter a 4th dimension, I read science
fiction. This is less escapism and more challenge.
I've learned to appreciate each for what it is and not criticize each for what
it is not. I AM STATING MY OPINION, I AM NOT TRYING TO BE SARCASTIC TOY
YOU. This is the same topic that bought me about 25 e-mail flames retorts,
because I had tried to sell my opinion on somebody else, trying to tell
them to open their minds. I will NOT make that same mistake again, therefore
I will only state my opinions and experiences and let the reader use it
or throw it away. But if I am told my opinion isn't woth a photon......
enough idle banter.
Signed,
FIST
[these opinions are SOLELY my own, and they are only opinions; standard
disclaimers apply]
Chad R Orzel
Tim Iverson <ive...@lionheart.com> wrote:
>A better question would be, "Is there any deep fantasy that includes a
>prophecy". Every fantasy with a prophecy that I can recall right now seems
>to be rather sophomoric (Donaldson, Eddings, Jordan, Feist, ...). I had
>fun reading most of these, it's just that I wouldn't say they required or
>instigated any deep thought - about ankle deep, say. My definition of
>'deep' would demand a thinking depth from navel high on up - think about the
>effort it takes to *wade* through water that high as compared to the effort
>it takes to fully understand the novel.
>
can't really think of _any_ fantasy I've read that would fit your definition
of "deep." Mostly because I don't read stuff that dense for fun. YMMV.
The only things I read that require that amount of work to get through are
Physics textbooks...
Later,
OilCan
Matthew Crosby
>Neal Ulen <ne...@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu> wrote:
>>Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
>>form of a prophecy?
>>
>>Just curious, because I don't think I've run across one yet. :-)
>
>I assume you mean classic legend-style fantasy (there are lots and lots of
>non-prophecy fantasy novels out there - eg. all of Emma Bull, most of Megan
>Lindholm, Brust's _Jhereg_ books, McCaffrey's Dragon books, etc. ad naseum).
I can't remember McCaffreys, stuff, haven't read Bull or Lindholm, but
in _Teckla_ Vlad visits a prophet.
>As far as the classic style goes, I don't think _A_Wizard_of_Earthsea_ has
>any prophecies. There's a lot of divination of *current* events and what
>they portend, but nothing on the order of 'when doves eat flesh and oysters
>grow teeth, a child will be born that ...'.
What about the prophecy that the new king in Havnor would visit the lands
of the dead? (_The Furthest Shore_) I also seem to recall something about the
ring of Erreth-Akbe, though I may be wrong on that.
David A Bergman
"The Iron Dragon's Daughter" by Michael Stanwick. This is really
the only piece I can remember that I honestly had to think about
to understand it. There is stuff like Robert Jordan, for ex, that
one does not "ingest" all the information in one reading, but
"The Iron Dragon's Daughter" was what I would consider deep.
I think that a lot of fantasy is a lot "shallower" than a lot of SF.
This is not an insult, but there is a predominance of authors
along the lines of Piers Anthony who write what is IMHO trash with
character development approaching nil. A lot of fantasy stuff is very
archetypal (archetypical?) having plots like the peasant becoming wizard
or the woman becoming sorceress and stuff along those lines. I wonder
if this scares a lot of the young authors who might want to write
"deep" stuff out of the field of fantasy. This is not to say that all
fantasy is genre trash that, while being readable, isn't very "deep",
but it very uncommon that I see something approaching things along the
lines of Dan Simmons's "Hyperion" and "Fall of Hyperion" in the fantasy
field.
All the above is MHO.
Aaron
Jeffrey Trigilio
[munch]
: I think that a lot of fantasy is a lot "shallower" than a lot of SF.
[explanation munched]
I think a lot of this stems from the ability of a science fiction author to
develop their characters with a broad base of allegiance. For example,
the protagonist in a science fiction work is not necessarily 'good guy' who
strives to overcome 'evil'. Take Julian May for example. Marc Remillard
is a main character, onme the reader often sympathizes with, but he is well
known for a few mischevious and some outright despicable acts of manipulation
and malous to further his own cause. Not your typical 'good guy'.
The typical science fiction author is able to cross that
good/evil line much more readily in their characters. Whereas the fantasy
author seems confined to the rigidity of good vs. evil, and must develop
the characters within this constraint.
: All the above is MHO.
And dittos for me.
FIST
[these opinionsa re SOLELY my own, standard disclaimers apply]
David DeLaney
>ne...@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu (Neal Ulen) writes:
> Guess it depends on what you call "prophecy".
>
> Several of the Narnia books don't have direct prophecies in
>them (The Magician's Nephew, Voyage of the Dawn Treader, etc).
Voyage of the Dawn Treader has the magician's prophecy that the little girl
will be needed to end the spells on him and the Dufflepuds (as well as the
Star being fed by the sunbird, who *will* ssomeday be young enough again to
retake his place in the Sky, and *how* could you forget Reepicheep's prophecy?);
tLtWatW of course has Aslan's, Prince Caspian has the return-of-the-Kings-and-
Queens prophecy, The Silver Chair is one long (misunderstood) prophecy,
The Horse and His Boy nearly likewise; The Magician's Nephew has the prophecy
on the bell in the doomed world, and probably (I don't remember exactly) a
couple of statements about what's going to eventually become of the Witch,
and the start of the Tree of Apples' prophecy ("Come in by the gold gate or
not at all..."); and The Last Battle's full of prophecy fulfilled too...
> Many Conan adventures didn't have no stinkin' prophecies.
Many Conan adventures didn't have no stinkin' *plot*, either.
> The Chronicles of Amber had no prophecies that I can remember.
Come now: "The red bird of my desire", formed from Corwin's blood; Dara's
prophecy (unfulfilled) that "Amberus delenda est"; there's signs and portents
everywhere you look, it seems, from the Unicorn...
> Lord of the Rings had no CENTRAL prophecies that I can recall.
>There was the one sideline about the Nazgul whom "no mortal man" could
>slay, but that was hardly central to the plot. The major action seemed
>to have no predestined line.
Oh dear. Dear, dear... Others have answered this one in more detail than I
could.
Dave "and the others I disremember enough of to say anything about" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IM(NS)HO; VRbeableDJK
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd for net.legends FAQ+miniFAQs; ftp: cathouse.org
David DeLaney
>Neal Ulen <ne...@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu> wrote:
>>Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
>>form of a prophecy?
>>
>>Just curious, because I don't think I've run across one yet. :-)
>>
>Any of Brust's Dragaeran books.
Sorry, no. The entire *cycle* counts as one big long ever-enforced Prophecy
about whose luck is up, whose House will be Emperor/Empress, etc.; I think
we've also had some less-openly-stated prophecies about Kieron, and about
the Kieron/Aliera/Vlad triangle, and about Vlad's not-yet-born daughter
(who incidentally is in To Reign In Hell, Brokedown Palace, and Cowboy
Feng's, apparently, too). Also I believe "If you're a Dzur hero and go off
to Sethra's mountain you're *not* coming back in the same skin" counts as
a baldly-stated Prophecy...
Dave "which keeps getting tested, too" DeLaney
David DeLaney
>Neal Ulen <ne...@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu> wrote:
>>Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
>>form of a prophecy?
>>
>>Just curious, because I don't think I've run across one yet. :-)
>
>I assume you mean classic legend-style fantasy (there are lots and lots of
>non-prophecy fantasy novels out there - eg. all of Emma Bull, most of Megan
>Lindholm, Brust's _Jhereg_ books, McCaffrey's Dragon books, etc. ad naseum).
I've already answered the Jhereg part elsewhere; McCaffrey's Dragon books
most certainly *do* have Prophecy - remember the Riddle Song and what-all
had to happen to get it started and solved?
>As far as the classic style goes, I don't think _A_Wizard_of_Earthsea_ has
>any prophecies. There's a lot of divination of *current* events and what
>they portend, but nothing on the order of 'when doves eat flesh and oysters
>grow teeth, a child will be born that ...'.
Mmmmm. What about "When the original Word is fully spoken again by Segoy (sp?),
the islands of Earthsea will vanish back into the deeps which they arose from"
or whatever the phrasing of that one is? It occurs to me that the method for
finding the Priestess in TToA involves more than a bit of Prophecy as well
("look for a child born this night; she will contain the soul of an important
one who has just died again")...
Dave "will provide counterexamples at length for food" DeLaney
Sea Wasp
>sea...@epicycle.lm.com (Sea Wasp) writes:
>> Guess it depends on what you call "prophecy".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Note carefully.
>> Several of the Narnia books don't have direct prophecies in
>>them (The Magician's Nephew, Voyage of the Dawn Treader, etc).
>Voyage of the Dawn Treader has the magician's prophecy that the little girl
>will be needed to end the spells on him and the Dufflepuds (as well as the
>Star being fed by the sunbird, who *will* ssomeday be young enough again to
>retake his place in the Sky, and *how* could you forget Reepicheep's prophecy?);
I'll grant you Reepicheep and possibly the spells' prophecy. The
star bit isn't a prophecy, it's a statement of fact. Unless you consider
"I will go to sleep now, and when I awake I will be rested" to be a
prophecy. If so, I defy you to find fiction of any sort which doesn't contain
prophecy.
>The Horse and His Boy nearly likewise; The Magician's Nephew has the prophecy
>on the bell in the doomed world, and probably (I don't remember exactly) a
>couple of statements about what's going to eventually become of the Witch,
>and the start of the Tree of Apples' prophecy ("Come in by the gold gate or
>not at all..."); and The Last Battle's full of prophecy fulfilled too...
Tree of Apple's prophecy? That's no prophecy, that's the mystic
equivalent of directions on a bottle of pills. "Don't take with alcohol"
is replaced with "Don't take with sneakiness".
Statements about what's going to happen... that's kinda fuzzy.
To me, anyway, a PROPHECY is something stated by a supernatural power
which is veiled in language which can be difficult to understand --
the Silver Chair, for instance, could be argued to contain prophecy
in the form of Aslan's instructions... though I've always felt Prophecy
should be OLD, not produced to order.
>> The Chronicles of Amber had no prophecies that I can remember.
>Come now: "The red bird of my desire", formed from Corwin's blood; Dara's
>prophecy (unfulfilled) that "Amberus delenda est"; there's signs and portents
>everywhere you look, it seems, from the Unicorn...
NONE of these are prophecy from my POV. First of all, it's "bloodbird"
which Oberon formed. No prophecy, just a tool. The White and Black birds of
Corwin's desire are again just shadow tools, summoned objects to perform a
particular function. Dara's words were a threat, or perhaps in her view
a statement of fact about which she was wrong, not a prophecy. If signs,
portents, and foreshadowing are prophecies, again, I defy you to produce
a work of fiction above the third grade level that doesn't have your
version of "prophecy" in it.
>> Lord of the Rings had no CENTRAL prophecies that I can recall.
>>There was the one sideline about the Nazgul whom "no mortal man" could
>>slay, but that was hardly central to the plot. The major action seemed
>>to have no predestined line.
>Oh dear. Dear, dear... Others have answered this one in more detail than I
>could.
And mostly avoided mentioning anything which I could see as a
prophecy. Stephen Donaldson's original Thomas Covenant trilogy had an
excellent example of prophecy RE the White Gold Wielder. LotR mostly
lacked such things.
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
John Novak
>> The Chronicles of Amber had no prophecies that I can remember.
>Come now: "The red bird of my desire", formed from Corwin's blood; Dara's
>prophecy (unfulfilled) that "Amberus delenda est"; there's signs and portents
>everywhere you look, it seems, from the Unicorn...
Oh, c'mon.
The birds of desire are no more prophetic beings than are
messengers sent ahead to proclaim an arrival before hand. The
bird of blood was, as I recall, a simple delivery tool. Dara's
words were a rather thuggish threat, and the Unicorn can make all
the signs and portents it wants without crossing into prohecy.
The closest Amber ever got to prophecy was the odd Trump as Tarot
futures reading-- about as helpful as a _real_ Tarot reading, if
you ask me. In other words, useful only as a stimulation to
the subconscious.
--
John S. Novak, III
j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
j...@camelot.bradley.edu
Roelof Otten
>> Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
>> form of a prophecy?
SW> The Chronicles of Amber had no prophecies that I can remember.
What about the prophecy about the Archangel Corwin riding through the storm at the end of the world in The Courts of Chaos?
SW> I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting...
The Dragons of Pern books by Ms McAffrey and The Cyvcle of Fire books by Ms
Wurts have no prophecies either.
Groetjes, Roelof
Chad R Orzel
David DeLaney <d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu> wrote:
>oil...@wam.umd.edu (Chad R Orzel) writes:
>>Neal Ulen <ne...@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu> wrote:
>>>Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
>>>form of a prophecy?
>>>
>>>Just curious, because I don't think I've run across one yet. :-)
>>>
>>Any of Brust's Dragaeran books.
>
>Sorry, no. The entire *cycle* counts as one big long ever-enforced Prophecy
>about whose luck is up, whose House will be Emperor/Empress, etc.; I think
>we've also had some less-openly-stated prophecies about Kieron, and about
>the Kieron/Aliera/Vlad triangle, and about Vlad's not-yet-born daughter
>(who incidentally is in To Reign In Hell, Brokedown Palace, and Cowboy
>Feng's, apparently, too). Also I believe "If you're a Dzur hero and go off
>to Sethra's mountain you're *not* coming back in the same skin" counts as
>a baldly-stated Prophecy...
>
1) She's not Vlad's daughter- she's Aliera'a. She calls him "Uncle Vlad."
2) You're using an amazingly broad definition of "prophecy" here. By the
terms you seem to be using, my stating "If you're not Superman, and you
take a header off the Empire State building, you're not coming back in the
same skin" would count as prophecy. That's not. It's stating the obvious,
based on past experience, and a knowledge of physics. Ditto Dzur mountain-
it's not a "prophecy" it's a statement of probability- lots of Dzur heros
have gone to the mountain, none of them have come back, you won't either.
3) I may concede the Aliera/Vlad/Kieron thing, but again I don't count
that as prophecy, per se. It's a reincarnation thing. Prophecy is more
of a vague, seemingly impossible statement about the future, that will in
fact turn out to be true: "No man born of woman..." "'Till Birnam wood
come to Dunsinane..." and so on.
4) The Cycle isn't a prophecy- it's a round-robin system of government,
with a bunch of metaphysical baggage tacked on. It makes no _prediction_
about when exactly the Cycle will turn, or who exactly will be the Heir-
_that_ is up to the individual houses (see for example Norathar's plight in
_Yendi._ (I think it was Yendi...)). All the Cycle really does is tell
you which House is next in line for the throne, and when the current
Emporer or Empress gives up power, we declare that the Cycle has turned,
and go our merry way...
Again, your definition of "prophecy" seems to be so broad as to be well
nigh useless.
Later,
OilCan
Chad R Orzel
David A Bergman <dab...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>The deepest fantasy I think I have read in a while would be
>"The Iron Dragon's Daughter" by Michael Stanwick. This is really
>the only piece I can remember that I honestly had to think about
>to understand it. There is stuff like Robert Jordan, for ex, that
>one does not "ingest" all the information in one reading, but
>"The Iron Dragon's Daughter" was what I would consider deep.
>
"Stylish to the point of being nearly incomprehensible" maybe. Don't get
me wrong- I thought Swanwick showed an amazing flair for finding a the
perfect turn of phrase to set the mood of a scene. But the effort and
thought I had to put into it was more along the lines of "What the Hell
just happened?" than "What are the deeper issues here?" I think that with
a similar input of effort, I could extract deep issues from other genre
books (well, from the better ones)- it's just that in those books the
effort isn't needed to figure out the _plot._
>I think that a lot of fantasy is a lot "shallower" than a lot of SF.
>This is not an insult, but there is a predominance of authors
>along the lines of Piers Anthony who write what is IMHO trash with
>character development approaching nil. A lot of fantasy stuff is very
>archetypal (archetypical?) having plots like the peasant becoming wizard
>or the woman becoming sorceress and stuff along those lines.
I dunno. It's not that difficult to find "shallow" science fiction. Any
decent bookstore probably has tons of poorly-written, mindless space
opera. I know that I have several shelves full of "shallow" science
fiction to match up with my fine collection of shallow fantasy.
This may be a function of the fact that I seem to be seeing more new
fantasy than new science fiction, these days. Though that may also be due
to my particular taste in authors...
I wonder
>if this scares a lot of the young authors who might want to write
>"deep" stuff out of the field of fantasy. This is not to say that all
>fantasy is genre trash that, while being readable, isn't very "deep",
>but it very uncommon that I see something approaching things along the
>lines of Dan Simmons's "Hyperion" and "Fall of Hyperion" in the fantasy
>field.
>
I would question how many people actually _want_ to write something "deep"
in the fantasy genre. Really, neither of the two genres uneasily sharing
this newsgroup is noted for being crowded with people who take themselves
that seriously (Though science fiction has its fair share- seems to have
picked up a whole bunch of people trying to write "A brilliant post-modern
novel..." Though, again, this may be due to my personal dislike (read:
intense loathing) of all things PoMo...). In general, most sf authors I
see seem to be more concerned with telling a good story than with writing
A Great Novel. This is a Good Thing, IMNSHO.
In the end, though, I don't really _want_ to find great depth in an sf
novel. What I want is basically just a good story- if I can get depth with
that, all the better. But I'll take storytelling over depth any day.
Later,
OilCan
(Trying to set a record for "most egregious use of 'Though,...'")
David Goldfarb
count as prophecy. However, people seem to be forgetting the end of
_Phoenix_: Vlad's grandfather foretells that he will live to hold Vlad's
child in his arms. That, in no uncertain terms, *is* a prophecy.
David Goldfarb |"The future doesn't seem promising, if only because
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |we can extrapolate some disquieting present trends
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET |into further deterioration: pollution, nationalism,
gold...@soda.berkeley.edu |environmental destruction, and aluminum bats."
| -- Stephen Jay Gould
William Henry Hsu
Roelof Otten <roe...@dcgg.hacktic.nl> wrote:
>
> >> Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
> >> form of a prophecy?
>
> SW> The Chronicles of Amber had no prophecies that I can remember.
>
>What about the prophecy about the Archangel Corwin riding through the storm at the end of the world in The Courts of Chaos?
Gah. Prophecies abound, from the Shadow-cat that Corwin kills in
/The Guns of Avalon/ to the very artistic wandering through several strange
black-and-white shadows that Merlin does in the Latter Chronicles (I remember
some prophecies by Pattern-ghosts, Jurt's in particular -- or was it the
Pattern itself?). Oh, and don't forget the Blood Curse. A pretty good
"prophecy".
>
> SW> I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting...
>
>The Dragons of Pern books by Ms McAffrey and The Cyvcle of Fire books by Ms
>Wurts have no prophecies either.
>
NNYYYAAAGH! How could there be no prophecies in a block deterministic
universe? Pern is set in a non-branching timeline with arbitrary-focus
time travel. Ergo, prophecies abound, the most important being the one
in /All The Weyrs of Pern/. For those who have not read ATWoP, the spoiler
is elided.
How about Moreta's death? (Or at least Orlith's?) Shouldn't that
count, since there was more than a bit of foreshadowing when Moreta
jumps ahead to a time after her death (to gather syringe needles)?
How about Lessa's self-fulfilling prophecy (assassination of Lord
Kale due to Ramoth's presence above Ruatha, which led the watchwher to become
complacent whilst Fax et al stormed the windows) in /Dragonflight/? Or
the most famous prophecy of all, the Exodus (the bringing of the five
Weyrs forward from the 8th Pass, recorded by the 8th Interval harper)? How
about Jaxom's return of the stolen Benden egg, another self-fulfilling
prophecy? Or one of the several incidents involving firelizards that have
hopped forward/backward in time? How about F'nor jumping back 10 Turns to
stock Benden (and coming back to warn F'lar)?
The only way any of these could be considered non-prophecies is if
you require non-determinism to call a prediction of some (possible) future
event a "prophecy" -- i.e. it might not have happened, but it did anyway.
There are always prophecies. I missed the beginning of this thread:
why do you wish to avoid them?
>
>
>Groetjes, Roelof
>
-Bill
David DeLaney
>David DeLaney <d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu> wrote:
>>oil...@wam.umd.edu (Chad R Orzel) writes:
>>>Neal Ulen <ne...@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu> wrote:
>>>>Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
>>>>form of a prophecy?
>
>1) She's not Vlad's daughter- she's Aliera'a. She calls him "Uncle Vlad."
Fair enough. She's still prophesied to be born in the future, by her own words,
from Aliera. Nyah.
>3) I may concede the Aliera/Vlad/Kieron thing, but again I don't count
>that as prophecy, per se. It's a reincarnation thing. Prophecy is more
>of a vague, seemingly impossible statement about the future, that will in
>fact turn out to be true: "No man born of woman..." "'Till Birnam wood
>come to Dunsinane..." and so on.
Neal said "Some form of prophecy", not "This specific form of prophecy";
I'm counting to-be-proved-factual statements about what's going to happen
in the future that clearly *don't* follow necessarily from, say, physics,
or are not obviously derivable from the present... (okay, *you* try to
define "prophecy"...
>4) The Cycle isn't a prophecy- it's a round-robin system of government,
>with a bunch of metaphysical baggage tacked on. It makes no _prediction_
>about when exactly the Cycle will turn, or who exactly will be the Heir-
>_that_ is up to the individual houses (see for example Norathar's plight in
>_Yendi._ (I think it was Yendi...)). All the Cycle really does is tell
>you which House is next in line for the throne, and when the current
>Emporer or Empress gives up power, we declare that the Cycle has turned,
>and go our merry way...
It's the metaphysical baggage that makes it prophetic: the emperor after
this House *will* be that House, and there's nothing that can be done except
going and actually physically turning that Wheel in the Paths; similarly,
House X *will* have worse luck, be generally worse off, succeed in its plots
less, etc., when its position on the Cycle is low. It's not just "the next
Emperor" - it also includes "how all the Houses are doing relative to
each other". Read properly, it even predicted the Interregnum; wanna bet
there *won't* be some sort of catastrophic thingy between the end of Great
Cycle 2 and the start of 3, now that we know it's happened once? And finally,
you've got the cause-and-effect backwards: the Cycle's turning dictates
when the Emperor/Empress can give way to the next House - there's several
*very* clear indications of this, where people are wondering about when exactly
the Cycle turned before the Interregnum and what physical effects this caused
re: the Lesser Sea of Chaos...
>Again, your definition of "prophecy" seems to be so broad as to be well
>nigh useless.
The original question was broad. I'm merely seeing what I can find that
matches.
Dave "where *will* I post next?" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IMHO; VRbeableFUTPLEX
David DeLaney
>The birds of desire are no more prophetic beings than are
>messengers sent ahead to proclaim an arrival before hand. The
>bird of blood was, as I recall, a simple delivery tool. Dara's
>words were a rather thuggish threat, and the Unicorn can make all
>the signs and portents it wants without crossing into prohecy.
The bird was prophetic; at the time he got it, *if* I remember correctly, he
hadn't seen it made yet, and it carried a message to him. What is a prophecy
if not "a simple delivery tool" for information from the future? Dara's words
are a prophetic utterance; *she* certainly intended to make it happen. It's
not exactly her fault that the prophecy never actually came to pass - she gave
it a good effort. And the original question was "some form of prophecy", not
"prophecy in this meter and scansion". Signs and portents are also prophetic,
especially if the viewers later on realize what they actually meant (the best
prophecies are only obvious afterwards).
>The closest Amber ever got to prophecy was the odd Trump as Tarot
>futures reading-- about as helpful as a _real_ Tarot reading, if
>you ask me. In other words, useful only as a stimulation to
>the subconscious.
There's also the demon's riddle about the Keep of the Four Elements; someone's
mentioned one of Oberon's prophecies (and there were more than one, I believe;
I'm working strictly from memory right now, but wasn't there a prophecy in
Ganelon's Avalon about a Corwin?). There's also that whole business of
Benedict's silver arm, and certainly several people went to Tir-na-n'Og for
the express purpose of trying to find prophetic visions/portents/signs at
various times. Oberon also said "the choice of the next King will be on the
horn of the Unicorn", or words to that effect, no? And it was... And please
explain what the Hall of Mirrors is for, if there's no prophecy anywhere
in Amber...
Granted, the distinction between "predicting X will happen" and "hellriding
until I find a place where X will happen" can get blurred at times... but
I believe that changing-future-events-working-from-the-present-time so that X
will happen after you say it will (laying a geas on reality, so to speak)
legitimately falls under prophesy. Are we gonna get into the "difference
between prophet, seer, and oracle" thread from Covenant now?
Dave "prophecies can be written, spoken, or discovered from observation" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IMHO; VRbeableFUTPLEX
John Novak
>Neal said "Some form of prophecy", not "This specific form of prophecy";
>I'm counting to-be-proved-factual statements about what's going to happen
>in the future that clearly *don't* follow necessarily from, say, physics,
>or are not obviously derivable from the present... (okay, *you* try to
>define "prophecy"...
When you figure out a way to factor out wishful thinking and
serious threats as prophecies, let me know. 'Cause right now, I
think you're being way too literal about the issue.
A prophecy has to have some form of authority behind it. A
newborn king's aged gramma looking down on him and claiming that
he'll be the greatest King in a thousand years, for instance,
doesn't count as prophecy unless she either has a track record of
good predictions, or there's some evidence that a Power of some
sort is speaking through her. Without the authority, its wishful
thinking, even if it _does_ come true.
Similarly, that child can make all the threats he wants against
his bastard usurping brother (before he fulfills gramma's wishful
thinking of course) and even if he makes good on them, they're
not prophecy without the authority behind them.
There are a few weird worlds where other forms of prophecy can be
ruled out as well. In Amber, for instance-- any prohecy
dependant on a shadow is ruled out right away, because there a
thousand other worlds where that prophecy existed, but didn't
come true. (For the record, I put most of the prophecies in
Amber as threats and wishful thinking. I don't even regard the
Blood Curses as that much. Loosing a firebolt and predicting the
house is going to burn down is as prophetic as predicting that
Eric is going to have troubles after Corwin curses him.)
John Novak
>The bird was prophetic; at the time he got it, *if* I remember correctly, he
>hadn't seen it made yet, and it carried a message to him. What is a prophecy
>if not "a simple delivery tool" for information from the future?
No, Corwin saw it made.
Oberon made the bird from the blood of Corwin. Oberon then
_told_ Corwin that the bird would take the jewel to him, and that
it would reach him at some point during his ride to Chaos. That
was the whole _point_ of that ride-- that the bird couldn't
traveel that far alone.
>Dara's words
>are a prophetic utterance; *she* certainly intended to make it happen. It's
>not exactly her fault that the prophecy never actually came to pass - she gave
>it a good effort. And the original question was "some form of prophecy", not
>"prophecy in this meter and scansion". Signs and portents are also prophetic,
>especially if the viewers later on realize what they actually meant (the best
>prophecies are only obvious afterwards).
If your definition of prophecy (I don't care what the original
wording was-- it must be bound by common sense in any event or the
question becomes meaningless) is so broad as to allow "The next
time I see you, I'ma gonna break-a you face!" as prophecy, I
doubt you'll see much of _any_ fiction without it.
Threats without prophetic authority are not prophecies.
>There's also the demon's riddle about the Keep of the Four Elements; someone's
>mentioned one of Oberon's prophecies (and there were more than one, I believe;
I don't count the second series. Please do not speak of it to
me... :-)
>I'm working strictly from memory right now, but wasn't there a prophecy in
>Ganelon's Avalon about a Corwin?). There's also that whole business of
>Benedict's silver arm, and certainly several people went to Tir-na-n'Og for
>the express purpose of trying to find prophetic visions/portents/signs at
>various times. Oberon also said "the choice of the next King will be on the
>horn of the Unicorn", or words to that effect, no? And it was... And please
>explain what the Hall of Mirrors is for, if there's no prophecy anywhere
>in Amber...
Amber has screwy rules about all this. My ground rules for
prophecy in Amber is, as I pointed out in my last message, that
anything happening in shadow is null and void. Not only can an
Amberite of a Chaosi make anything he want happen (given time and
effort) but like as not there are a thousand other worlds where
other prophecies were made that didn't occur, and a thousand more
where the _same_ prophecy was made and didn't occur. Many-worlds
interpretation prophecy leaves me as cold as a million monkeys at
a million typewriters, or the brownian construction of snowflakes
from the random configuration of tea molecules...
Tir-na Nog'th I might admit, but then, I might not. An oracle
that's right only as frequently as its wrong is no great help to
me.
>Granted, the distinction between "predicting X will happen" and "hellriding
>until I find a place where X will happen" can get blurred at times... but
>I believe that changing-future-events-working-from-the-present-time so that X
>will happen after you say it will (laying a geas on reality, so to speak)
>legitimately falls under prophesy. Are we gonna get into the "difference
>between prophet, seer, and oracle" thread from Covenant now?
Ah-- I don't buy your definition of prophecy.
My telling you that in five minutes, you're going to have a
nosebleed, then smacking you around in four minutes, is not a
prophecy.
Travis Cottreau
>In article <2qsi4c$i...@owl.csrv.uidaho.edu>,
>Neal Ulen <ne...@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu> wrote:
>>Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
>>form of a prophecy?
>>
>>Just curious, because I don't think I've run across one yet. :-)
>
The Elric books - Michael Moorcock
The Amber Chronicles - Roger Zelazny
Tigana - Guy Gavriel Kay
A Song for Arbonne - Guy Gavriel Kay
All good and no prophecy in sight. I would name more, but I can't be sure
without looking back.
You might want to look at "Pawn of Prophecy" I hear that there's no
prophecy in it, that was one of it's selling points. :-)
--
Travis Cottreau
cott...@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
Ross Smith
>In article <1994May13.2...@martha.utcc.utk.edu> d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes:
>>sea...@epicycle.lm.com (Sea Wasp) writes:
>
>>> The Chronicles of Amber had no prophecies that I can remember.
>
>>Come now: "The red bird of my desire", formed from Corwin's blood; Dara's
>>prophecy (unfulfilled) that "Amberus delenda est"; there's signs and portents
>>everywhere you look, it seems, from the Unicorn...
>
> NONE of these are prophecy from my POV. First of all, it's "bloodbird"
>which Oberon formed. No prophecy, just a tool. The White and Black birds of
>Corwin's desire are again just shadow tools, summoned objects to perform a
>particular function. Dara's words were a threat, or perhaps in her view
>a statement of fact about which she was wrong, not a prophecy. If signs,
>portents, and foreshadowing are prophecies, again, I defy you to produce
>a work of fiction above the third grade level that doesn't have your
>version of "prophecy" in it.
I agree with you about those non-prophecies, but there *was* at least
one genuine prophecy in the Amber books. In _The Courts of Chaos_, one
of the worlds Corwin passes through on his way to the Courts (I think
it was the one where he was kidnapped by elves) had a prophecy that
Corwin would pass that way followed by the end of the world (or something
to that effect -- it's a while since I read it).
--
Ross Smith (Wanganui, New Zealand) ... al...@acheron.amigans.gen.nz
GCS/S d? p c++++ l u-- e- m---(*) s+/++ n--- h+ f g+ w+ t+(-) r+ y?
Keeper of the FAQ for rec.aviation.military
"Unix has been feverishly evolving for over 20 years, sort of like
bacteria in a cesspool, only less attractive." (Unix for Dummies)
Sea Wasp
>In article <2r1h4j$s...@epicycle.lm.com> sea...@epicycle.lm.com (Sea Wasp) writes:
>>In article <1994May13.2...@martha.utcc.utk.edu> d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes:
>>>sea...@epicycle.lm.com (Sea Wasp) writes:
>>>> The Chronicles of Amber had no prophecies that I can remember.
>>>Come now: "The red bird of my desire", formed from Corwin's blood; Dara's
>>>prophecy (unfulfilled) that "Amberus delenda est"; there's signs and portents
>>>everywhere you look, it seems, from the Unicorn...
>> NONE of these are prophecy from my POV. First of all, it's "bloodbird"
[...]
>I agree with you about those non-prophecies, but there *was* at least
>one genuine prophecy in the Amber books. In _The Courts of Chaos_, one
>of the worlds Corwin passes through on his way to the Courts (I think
>it was the one where he was kidnapped by elves) had a prophecy that
>Corwin would pass that way followed by the end of the world (or something
>to that effect -- it's a while since I read it).
This can't, as someone else said, count as prophecy *except in
that Shadow*. It has nothing to do with Reality in Amber, since there
were undoubtedly innumerable Shadows in which that specific prophecy
was made and which Corwin DIDN'T visit. In Amber, it's even more
difficult to get a genuine prophecy than in other places, because for
it to be a prophecy (as someone else pointed out) it has to have some
AUTHORITY behind it instead of being just wishful thinking or
coincidence... and in Shadow, you can find a coincidence for EVERY
occasion. If I were an Amberite, I could undoubtedly find a Shadow
where it was prophesied that this message would be sent and lead to
to the destruction of the world.
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Captain Button
[ snip ... ]
: The Chronicles of Amber had no prophecies that I can remember.
I vaguely remember Corwin doing a Tarot reading using the decks the
family trumps come in, and the implication that this is a not uncommon
practice in his family.
Corwin's night in Tir Na'Goth (can't recall correct spelling, the
moonlight reflected Amber in the sky includes prophetic elements. He
sees a vision of Dara as Queen with Benedict guarding her. I gathered
that such visions are common in Tir Na'Goth, and that is why Corwin went
there.
When Corwin is off hellriding to make his own Pattern, he meets
a traveler who tells of a prophecy of the Archangel Corwin striding
.. with a fire upon his chest, which matches what Corwin is doing at
the time.
[ snip ... ]
--
- Captain Button but...@io.com
"We'll have to organize some Chaos in the Streets." - Lane Kirkland
Tim Iverson
>>[_A_Wizard_of_Earthsea_ has no prophecies ...]
>
>Mmmmm. What about "When the original Word is fully spoken again by Segoy (sp?),
>the islands of Earthsea will vanish back into the deeps which they arose from"
Not a prophecy (and it's the *last* word, not the first again).
>("look for a child born this night; she will contain the soul of an important
>one who has just died again")...
Again, not a prophecy.
However, an ealier article did point out a rather central prophecy in
_The_Farthest_Shore_; ie. that the next king would not come until the ring
had been repaired (and the king would be one who had journeyed across the
dry lands).
What is a prophecy then? Ah, it is a set of conditions, which when met,
will result in a given conclusion; ie A -> B. AND, you must not be able to
reason your way from A to B.
Someone else pointed out that I was wrong about Brust's Jhereg, too ... the
prophecy Vlad's grandfather made about living long enough to hold Vlad's son.
- Tim Iverson
ive...@lionheart.com
Anton Sherwood
(But it's been a while.)
In article <2r87i3$2...@illuminati.io.com>,
Captain Button <but...@illuminati.io.com> wrote:
> Corwin's night in Tir Na'Goth (can't recall correct spelling, the
>moonlight reflected Amber in the sky) includes prophetic elements. He
>sees a vision of Dara as Queen with Benedict guarding her.
Does every time-travel story, then, contain a prophecy? Remember that
he later sees the same scene from the outside (with Corwin invisible).
"Tir-na Nog'th" is how I remember the spelling. Tir na nOg, "Country
of the Young", is the Gaelic name for the Elysian Fields.
> I gathered
>that such visions are common in Tir Na'Goth, and that is why Corwin went
>there.
Agreed.
--
Disclaimer: The above is likely to refer to anecdotal evidence.
Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\* DAS...@netcom.com
"The verb _justify_ always takes an indirect object." --T.0.Morrow
Anton Sherwood
>most certainly *do* have Prophecy - remember the Riddle Song and what-all
>had to happen to get it started and solved?
Mentioning the Riddle Song reminds me of Poul Anderson's "After Doomsday",
in which some lonely humans hire a poet to compose a catchy song about
their exploits, with the intention that it spread to the ears of whatever
other humans may survive.
Any other examples of such a device?
Dorothy J Heydt
Anton Sherwood <das...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>Mentioning the Riddle Song reminds me of Poul Anderson's "After Doomsday",
>in which some lonely humans hire a poet to compose a catchy song about
>their exploits, with the intention that it spread to the ears of whatever
>other humans may survive.
>
>Any other examples of such a device?
Well, there's the case (done with a different purpose in mind) of
Ben Reich's getting Duffy Wyg& to sing him the song you can't get
out of your mind, so that nobody could read his mind thereafter.
That's in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man,_ for those who are
culturally deprived.
Dorothy J. Heydt
djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu
University of California
Berkeley
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
the whole story revolved around the "thing" in question, but I just have to
mention a certain Fritz Leiber short story (the title of which I shall not
mention here, just to make sure I don't start it spreading again) about the
rhythm/image/thing that almost took over the world. Whee.
--
Leif ("ignore my last name, can't spell it in ascii anyway")
GS/M -d+(-) -p+(-) c++ l+ u e+ m---(*) s++/++ n+(--) h f+ g++(-) w+ t- r++ y?
"How can you know the cost of everything, yet never see its worth?"
--Skyclad
Roger M Kolaks
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>Well, there's the case (done with a different purpose in mind) of
>Ben Reich's getting Duffy Wyg& to sing him the song you can't get
>out of your mind, so that nobody could read his mind thereafter.
>
>That's in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man,_ for those who are
>culturally deprived.
>
Does anyone remember the title of the story where the Allies created a
song to defeat the Germans in WWII.
The song went:
Left a wife and seventeen children in starving condition and nothing but
gingerbread left, left.
I read that story maybe thrity years ago and I still cant get the jingle
out of my head.
...rmk
Bronis Vidugiris
)Neal said "Some form of prophecy", not "This specific form of prophecy";
)I'm counting to-be-proved-factual statements about what's going to happen
)in the future that clearly *don't* follow necessarily from, say, physics,
)or are not obviously derivable from the present... (okay, *you* try to
)define "prophecy"...
This seems a bit too large a definition to me. As I recall, "Failsafe"
(a novel about nuclear war) had some foreshadowings of things going wrong.
This fits your definition, but I would argue that Failsafe is much
more SF oriented than Fantasy oriented.
Or take, for another example, "Thrice upon a time"....
To me, a prophecy in the fantasy sense of the term is something much more
narrow. One criterion that comes to mind is that it needs to have been made a
long time ago for starters. Another is that it's a bit marginal to classify
as a 'prophecy' if it involves an actual time-loop/time-travel.
--
"The power of this battlestation is _insignificant_ when compared with
the power of the Farce." - D. Vader.
John Novak
>anew..." (not as quoted, of course). There's bound to be plenty of other
>examples, at least one of which will survive John Novak's nitpicking...
I've only been nitpicking in Amber. In general, I've raised what
I think is a highly valid point-- namely that neither wishful
thinking nor threats nor foreshadowing are prophecies. Your
definition is so broad that the question becomes almost
meaningless, and we call a blade a prohecy, and battle Oracle as
each martial vows victory.
>Dave "and I've forgotten the Tigana details & haven't read ASfA yet" DeLaney
Tigana does have something that meets my definition of prohecy--
the Riselka wandering around forking people...
David DeLaney
>strm...@uclink2.berkeley.edu (Edmund Henry Wong) writes:
>>Neal Ulen <ne...@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu> wrote:
>>>Hey, has anyone ever read a fantasy book(s) that does NOT contain some
>>>form of a prophecy?
>>>
>>>Just curious, because I don't think I've run across one yet. :-)
> The Tales of Alvin Maker - Orson Scott Card
> The Elric books - Michael Moorcock
> The Amber Chronicles - Roger Zelazny
> Tigana - Guy Gavriel Kay
> A Song for Arbonne - Guy Gavriel Kay
>
> All good and no prophecy in sight. I would name more, but I can't be sure
>without looking back.
Um, excuse me? Amber's been dealt with already in other threads.
Alvin Maker: Just *what* do you think the visions inside the solid-water
tornado were, hmm? And the "A Maker Is Born" written in whasshisname's book?
And the vision the torch had, which changed her whole life, as Alvin was
being born (and which she's *still* following up through the third book,
forcing, for instance, all the hexes she wears)? And there's a couple other
prophecies by the Indians (notably the one which leads to dividing the
USA at the Mississippi...)...
Elric: hmm. Oh yes, the business with Mournblade and finding it; I think
Rackhir had a prophecy associated with him; and Elric moans constantly about
his Doom throughout (and figures out not very far along that the sword's
fated to kill his friends). Finally, the instructions for using the Horn
(and indeed for finding it in the first place, I think - "step off the top
of the tallest tower"?) are prophetic: "Blow this once, and the dragons will
wake; twice, and the Lords of Order will come; three times to remake the world
anew..." (not as quoted, of course). There's bound to be plenty of other
examples, at least one of which will survive John Novak's nitpicking...
Dave "and I've forgotten the Tigana details & haven't read ASfA yet" DeLaney
David Goldfarb
) Does anyone remember the title of the story where the Allies created a
)song to defeat the Germans in WWII.
The author was Henry Kuttner. I think the title was "Nothing But
Gingerbread Left", although I'm less certain of that.
Incidentally, the German version of the song would have to be
rather different from what Kuttner wrote; the English words depend on
a double meaning of the word "left" that doesn't exist in German.
David Goldfarb |"...I'm a member of the Centre Extremist party.
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | We have very moderate views, but if you don't
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET | agree with them, we'll kill you."
gold...@soda.berkeley.edu |
Jim Gifford
d> in which some lonely humans hire a poet to compose a catchy song about
d> their exploits, with the intention that it spread to the ears of whatever
d> other humans may survive.
d> Any other examples of such a device?
Don't forget the little catchy songs in Bester's _The Demolished Man_, where
they are used to shield one's thoughts from telepaths.
And, of course, Kuttner's _Nothing But Gingerbread Left_, where the song is
used to drive the entire German army insane.
---
Internet: Jim.G...@ubik.wmeonlin.sacbbx.com
Fidonet: Ubik (1:203/289)
Direct: 916-723-4296 V.32bis 24 Hours
Dorothy J Heydt
Alex Irvine <alex....@um.cc.umich.edu> wrote:
>
>Does anyone remember the name of the story where somebody creates
>a commercial jingle that is so potent that people crash airplanes and
>stuff because they can't get it out of their heads?
You may be thinking of Fritz Leiber's "Rum-titty-titty-tum-TAH-tee"
(which it is safe to name, despite another poster's fears,
because it's obviously set in an alternate universe where people's
nervous systems are slightly different from ours....).
Scott Linn
Mark Twain had a short story about an infectous
little song that would completely dominate the mind
of any auditor. The only way to get cured was
to infect someone else. Twain's main character
accidently infects his friend and then figures out
the cure. He takes his babbling chum to a college
campus and lets him poison a lecture hall full of
students.
The ditty goes something like:
Conductor when you take a fare.
Punch in the presence of the passenger.
Punch brothers.
Punch with care.
Punch in the presence of the passenger.
A pink trip slip for a five cent fare.
A blue trip slip for a ten cent fare.
A buff trip slip for a twelve cent fare.
Punch brothers.
Punch with care.
Punch in the presence of the passenger.
--
Scott Linn
sl...@ccd.harris.com
I disclaim. Boy, do I disclaim!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Irvine
dm...@sys.uea.ac.uk (Dominic Hagyard) writes:
> I can't remember the name of the book but there is a Tim Powers novel where
> the hero plays music to protect him from the mind control of the local
> religous cult so he can rescue it's victims. When his guitar is smashed th
> has to resort to pain to keep his mind free.
Dinner at Deviant's Palace.
Does anyone remember the name of the story where somebody creates
a commercial jingle that is so potent that people crash airplanes and
stuff because they can't get it out of their heads?
Alex
Mutant for Hire
> This can't, as someone else said, count as prophecy *except in
>that Shadow*. It has nothing to do with Reality in Amber, since there
>were undoubtedly innumerable Shadows in which that specific prophecy
>was made and which Corwin DIDN'T visit. In Amber, it's even more
>difficult to get a genuine prophecy than in other places, because for
>it to be a prophecy (as someone else pointed out) it has to have some
>AUTHORITY behind it instead of being just wishful thinking or
>coincidence... and in Shadow, you can find a coincidence for EVERY
>occasion. If I were an Amberite, I could undoubtedly find a Shadow
>where it was prophesied that this message would be sent and lead to
>to the destruction of the world.
Wrong, the prophecy states clearly that the Unicorn will select the
next King of Amber, and about enemies helping him and other stuff
about things that go on in the Courts of Chaos.
Fine, it may be a Shadow prophecy, but it also happened to be dead
on accurate, which makes it prophecy to me.
--
Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Synchronicity Daemon, Priest of Shub-Internet
Disclaimer: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but flames are just ignored
mfte...@phoenix.princeton.edu mfte...@pucc.bitnet anonym...@charcoal.com
"Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance"
Mutant for Hire
>The typical science fiction author is able to cross that
>good/evil line much more readily in their characters. Whereas the fantasy
>author seems confined to the rigidity of good vs. evil, and must develop
>the characters within this constraint.
Try reading Glen Cook or Tanith Lee. Glen Cook writes about some incredibly
ambiguous characters. Granted, there is often one or two real villains in
his stuff, but there's no good versus evil per se. Tanith Lee's Flat Earth
series also has some interesting bits on good versus evil. There is the
lord of the demons, who performs great acts of good and evil (though always
with a sense of style).
David DeLaney
> Mark Twain had a short story about an infectous
>little song that would completely dominate the mind
>of any auditor. The only way to get cured was
>to infect someone else. Twain's main character
>accidently infects his friend and then figures out
>the cure. He takes his babbling chum to a college
>campus and lets him poison a lecture hall full of
>students.
>
> The ditty goes something like:
>
>Conductor when you take a fare.
>Punch in the presence of the passenger.
>Punch brothers.
>Punch with care.
>Punch in the presence of the passenger.
>
>A pink trip slip for a five cent fare.
>A blue trip slip for a ten cent fare.
>A buff trip slip for a twelve cent fare.
>Punch brothers.
>Punch with care.
>Punch in the presence of the passenger.
This later turned up in a childrens' book, either Homer Price or Centerburg
Tales, the author of which momentarily escapes me ... McCloskey, that's it.
There was one Tale which had an infectious ditty come into town which *didn't*
get cured by passing it on, and Homer finally figured out that it could be
cured by infecting the sufferers with Twain's ditty - which drove out the
other, then (when passed on to another) died out. They finally reduced the
Twain ditty to one person, who was a traveler already on his way out of town...
There's a hilarious scene of the citizens of Centerburg frantically searching
for a small brown book in the town library...
Dave "they're humorous, and on-topic for this group as well" DeLaney
Jocelyn Elana Goldfein
: I can't remember the name of the book but there is a Tim Powers novel where
: the hero plays music to protect him from the mind control of the local
: religous cult so he can rescue it's victims. When his guitar is smashed th
: has to resort to pain to keep his mind free.
: Dominic Hagyard
: dm...@sys.uea.ac.uk
Dinner at Deviant's Palace, I believe.
-Jocelyn
--
***************************joce...@leland.stanford.edu************************
* "But which road should we take?" asked Tock. "It must make a difference." *
* -Norton Juster, _The Phantom Tollbooth_ *
*******************************kath...@netcom.com*****************************
Jay Shorten
> Mark Twain had a short story about an infectous
>little song that would completely dominate the mind
>of any auditor.
> The ditty goes something like:
>Conductor when you take a fare.
>Punch in the presence of the passenger.
>Punch brothers.
>Punch with care.
>Punch in the presence of the passenger.
>A pink trip slip for a five cent fare.
>A blue trip slip for a ten cent fare.
>A buff trip slip for a twelve cent fare.
>Punch brothers.
>Punch with care.
>Punch in the presence of the passenger.
This song, with the same idea, was also in one of Robert McCloskey's "Homer
Price" books for kids (not sf.)
Ken & Jo Walton
Tenser, said the Tensor,
Tension, apprehension and dissention have begun.
As a way of keeping telepaths out of your head because it is so catchy it
completely takes over the top layer of your thinking. I can't remember, the
author or the plot or the story but the jingle will be with me for ever!
--
Ken & Jo Walton
Magdaeln
Mage...@kenjo.demon.co.uk (Ken & Jo Walton) writes:
>Tension, apprehension and dissention have begun
This classic jingle came from the book "The Demolished Man" by Alfred
Bester. Which was, incidentally, the first book to win the Hugo.
---.\\agdaelen
The Wandering Jew
: In article <769603...@kenjo.demon.co.uk>,
Yeah, well, sort of... It got the Science Fiction Achievement Award and
then Bob Madle called it a 'Hugo' (in his column in Dymanic, I think).
The nickname became instantly popular and in 1958 was made official.
Also, the jingle only worked against low-level espers.
--
aha...@clark.net Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
Robert Conquest's Second Law
Every organization appears to be headed by secret agents of its opponents
Tony Bass
> d> Mentioning the Riddle Song reminds me of Poul Anderson's "After Doomsday",
> d> in which some lonely humans hire a poet to compose a catchy song about
> d> their exploits, with the intention that it spread to the ears of whatever
> d> other humans may survive.
>
> d> Any other examples of such a device?
>
From memory,
On the road, the old road
A tower made of stone
...
Sheri Tepper, _Jinian Footseer_ and other books. A jump or skipping
rope song in folk memory encoding great historical events otherwise lost
to record. The author gives different wordings in different places, as
might well happen over centuries.
Tony Bass
--
# Tony Bass Tel: +44 473 645305
# MLB 3/19, BT Laboratories e-mail: a...@saltfarm.bt.co.uk
# Martlesham Heath, Ipswich, Suffolk, IP5 7RE
# Opinions are my own
Ken & Jo Walton
_The Sirens of Titan_ "Rented a tent, a tent, a tent, rented a tent a tent"
which is a marching song that takes over someone's brain. There's one in
one of his late books (again I can't remember the _title_ but I remember the
_jingle_ perfectly - is there something wrong with me?) which fills someone's
mind to the extent that he is sent to a lunatic asylum. Then an alien
observes Earth to find the happiest person and selects him (because of his
beautiful smile) and enters his mind to find himself trapped in the interstices
of "Sally in the garden, sifting cinders" - I _do_ remember all of it, but I'll
be kind and not pass it on!
Jo
--
|====== The Honourable and Worshipful Company of Adventurers =======|
|=================== Trading into Magellanica ======================|
| Opinions expressed *are* those of the company. |
+---------------> Hold fast to that which is good <-----------------|
Matt McIrvin
Ken & Jo Walton <Mage...@kenjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Then an alien
>observes Earth to find the happiest person and selects him (because of his
>beautiful smile) and enters his mind to find himself trapped in the interstices
>of "Sally in the garden, sifting cinders" - I _do_ remember all of it, but I'll
>be kind and not pass it on!
This is in one of the little synopses of "Kilgore Trout" stories-- I think
it's in _Jailbird_, which takes place in the alternate Vonnegut universe
in which Kilgore Trout is a pseudonym for a guy named Bob Fender.
--
Matt 01234567 <-- Indent-o-Meter
McIrvin ^ Tab damage will make the deserts bloom!
Jim Henry
In message <Cpq8y...@lionheart.com>
ive...@lionheart.com (Tim Iverson) writes:
TI>A better question would be, "Is there any deep fantasy that includes a
TI>prophecy". Every fantasy with a prophecy that I can recall right now seems
TI>to be rather sophomoric (Donaldson, Eddings, Jordan, Feist, ...). I had
Hmm, what about E.R. Eddison's _The Worm Ouroboros_? It has the
prophecies concerning the last three kings Gorice. Or is it not
deep enough?
Orson Scott Card's _Hart's Hope_ has a couple of prophecies;
there's Enziquelvinisensee Evelvenin's name, which "in those days
was not true," and I think there are one or two others.
James P. Blaylock's _The Last Coin_ has the prophecy about the
One Pig.
* SLMR 2.1a * My other computer's a PDP-8
Craig Becker
Not quite a catchy song, but I remember that Sidney Sheldon (not
a name that shows up on this group very often, is it? :-) wrote
a short story called, I think, "I've Got A Secret" that was made
into one of the _New Twilight Zone_ episodes, about some phrase
that made people go mad when they heard it (and natch, the madness
also induced one to spread the phrase).
Craig
--
-- Craig Becker, Object Technology Products (512) 838-8068 Austin, TX USA --
-- Internet: (work) jlpi...@austin.ibm.com (home) jlpi...@bga.com --
-- IBM TR: jlpi...@woofer.austin.ibm.com IBM VNET: JLPICARD at AUSVM1 --
-- it's okay it goes this way the line it twists it twists away --
Nancy Lebovitz
Joris of the Rock, and a third one whose name I forget) which has
a prophecy that predicts quite accurately--and then turns out to apply
equally well to another set of events.
Nancy Lebovitz
calligraphic button catalogue available by email (200K)
Forecasting is difficult, especially about the future
It's hard to predict the future when they keep changing the past
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
\ The above does not represent OIT, UNC-CH, laUNChpad, or its other users. /
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dominic Hagyard
> d> Mentioning the Riddle Song reminds me of Poul Anderson's "After Doomsday",
> d> in which some lonely humans hire a poet to compose a catchy song about
> d> their exploits, with the intention that it spread to the ears of whatever
> d> other humans may survive.
> d> Any other examples of such a device?
>Don't forget the little catchy songs in Bester's _The Demolished Man_, where
>they are used to shield one's thoughts from telepaths.
>And, of course, Kuttner's _Nothing But Gingerbread Left_, where the song is
>used to drive the entire German army insane.
I can't remember the name of the book but there is a Tim Powers novel where
David DeLaney
>Jim.G...@ubik.wmeonlin.sacbbx.com (Jim Gifford):
>>d> Mentioning the Riddle Song reminds me of Poul Anderson's "After Doomsday",
>>d> in which some lonely humans hire a poet to compose a catchy song about
>>d> their exploits, with the intention that it spread to the ears of whatever
>>d> other humans may survive.
>>d> Any other examples of such a device?
>
>From memory,
> On the road, the old road
> A tower made of stone
Cannot ring alone.
Shadow Bell rings in the dark,
Daylight Bell the dawn;
In the tower hung the bell,
Now the tower's gone.
>Sheri Tepper, _Jinian Footseer_ and other books. A jump or skipping
>rope song in folk memory encoding great historical events otherwise lost
>to record. The author gives different wordings in different places, as
>might well happen over centuries.
Hmmmm. Thinking a minute, the jump-rope song had that wording (because they
described actions to fit it, like jumping double at "Cannot ring alone"
and leaving entirely at "gone"), and the Runners had that wording as well
(because Jinian finally recognizes what they're saying *only* because of
that - if they'd changed the words, or if the rhyme had, she'd never've
gotten it...). So (unless someone who's read them more recently can pick
me a flaw) I'd say the wording *didn't* change - and that this is crucial
in paving the path to eventually finding both the Shadow Tower (and the
missing Wizard) and the Daylight Bell, in the end (although that requires
solving far more than the original rhyme-puzzle...). It runs throughout
all three books - Jinian Footseer, Dervish Daughter, and Jinian Star-Eye...
Dave "and Peter's trick with the Daylight Bell *still* shivers my spine" DeLaney
Ken & Jo Walton
a generation ship being investigated by an arts major leading to the discovery
of new alien intelligence - the interpretation of the ballad is central to the
story. And it is a good poem.
Jim Henry
In message <2rsq8m$m...@lamb.saltfarm.bt.co.uk>
a...@lamb.saltfarm.bt.co.uk (Tony Bass) writes:
TB>Sheri Tepper, _Jinian Footseer_ and other books. A jump or skipping
TB>rope song in folk memory encoding great historical events otherwise lost
TB>to record. The author gives different wordings in different places, as
TB>might well happen over centuries.
Ah! that reminds me of Orson Scott Card's "The Originist," which
has an anthropologist tracking down various mutations of "Ring
around the rosy, pocket full of posies..." and theorizing about
the origin of it. (Not the main plot of the story.)
* SLMR 2.1a * Classics were written by famous dead foreigners.
David DeLaney
>a...@lamb.saltfarm.bt.co.uk (Tony Bass) writes:
>TB>Sheri Tepper, _Jinian Footseer_ and other books. A jump or skipping
>TB>rope song in folk memory encoding great historical events otherwise lost
>TB>to record. The author gives different wordings in different places, as
>TB>might well happen over centuries.
>
>Ah! that reminds me of Orson Scott Card's "The Originist," which
>has an anthropologist tracking down various mutations of "Ring
>around the rosy, pocket full of posies..." and theorizing about
>the origin of it. (Not the main plot of the story.)
Ooh! Oooh! Mr. Kotter! Um, er, I mean - anyone who thinks that's even the
*least* bit interesting should run-not-walk to the last story in the Friends
Of The Foundation shared-world anthology set in Asimov's Foundation series,
which details part of the origin of the Second Foundation, and describes
what's got to be the ultimate hypertext...
Dave "an entire library that's been hypertext-cross-referenced, and some of
the implications thereof" DeLaney
Rebecca Leann Smit Crowley
: Samuel Delany's _The Ballad of Beta Two_ has a ballad collected by a robot from
: of new alien intelligence - the interpretation of the ballad is central to the
: story. And it is a good poem.
Just read it last night. That's a pretty good summary -- the young
man in question is specifically an anthropology student. It's a
clever poem and a clever story.
--
Rebecca Crowley standard disclaimers apply rcro...@zso.dec.com
I laughed, I cried, I fell down -- it changed my life.
Tony Bass
> a...@lamb.saltfarm.bt.co.uk (Tony Bass) writes:
>>Jim.G...@ubik.wmeonlin.sacbbx.com (Jim Gifford):
>>>d> Mentioning the Riddle Song reminds me of Poul Anderson's "After Doomsday",
>>>d> in which some lonely humans hire a poet to compose a catchy song about
>>>d> their exploits, with the intention that it spread to the ears of whatever
>>>d> other humans may survive.
>>>d> Any other examples of such a device?
>>
>>From memory,
>> On the road, the old road
>> A tower made of stone
> In the tower hangs a bell that
> Cannot ring alone.
> Shadow Bell rings in the dark,
> Daylight Bell the dawn;
> In the tower hung the bell,
> Now the tower's gone.
>
Examples of minor variations in wording are
Shadow bell, it rang the night,
_The Search of Mavin Manyshaped_ ch 3
Shadow bell rang in the dark
ibid ch 8
In the tower hung the bells
ibid ch 3 and ch 8
In the towers hang the bells
_Jinian Star-Eye_ ch 2
so that the general sense is preserved but it is less easy to see the
facts behind the rhyme, especially if one did not know that there were
historical facts. Thanks for refreshing my memory about a series I
greatly enjoyed reading.
Tony Bass
--
# Tony Bass Tel: +44 473 645305
# MLB 3/19, BT Laboratories e-mail: a...@saltfarm.bt.co.uk
# Martlesham Heath, Ipswich, Suffolk, IP5 7RE DO NOT e-mail to From: line