New role of Europe
Lesley
the moment (Iraq-attack, nuclear weapons, Iran- and China-critique), I think
Europe must redefine its support to the US.
Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on Bush
and his politics are growing every second. It's impossible for Europe not to
respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake of world peace.
A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership of
the US in the UN should be evaluated.
Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't respect the
guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
What do you think about the politics of the US at the moment, and what can
be done to make sure Bush won't go into historybooks as the initiator of
destruction of mankind)!?
Lesley
Theo
Europe as well, can go get fucked.
Lesley
Unfortunately, you do not answer my questions (more Americans seem to deal
with that :-))
"Theo" <th...@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2t6j8.135673$Hu6.33...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
Flyfish
says...
> Because of the arrogant and dangerous politics Bush et al are pursuing at
> the moment (Iraq-attack, nuclear weapons, Iran- and China-critique), I think
> Europe must redefine its support to the US.
>
Please do. Easy to do now that the US paid the bill to bankrupt the only
danger you've ever faced other than each other. 50 years of hiding
behind our military and now you want to drive the bus?
> Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on Bush
> and his politics are growing every second. It's impossible for Europe not to
> respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake of world peace.
Good, I noticed that the Netherlands hasn't had a terrorist atrocity
recently, wonder how your tune would change then?
> A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
> considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership of
> the US in the UN should be evaluated.
The Saudi's are now backpedaling, "Well we wouldn't actually recognize
the State of Israel", in other words give us the land, and nothing will
change. Despite this the US has urged Israel to consider the Saudi
proposal. For years the Europeans have sold the arabs the weapons to
hammer Israel, now you're interested in peace?
Go ahead throw the US out of the UN, NATO too. Then do your own dirty
work in Kosovo instead of begging the US to do it for you, have a nice
day while every punk with 3 tanks, a dozen AK47's and a SA6 terrorizes
your pathetic military forces.
> Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't respect the
> guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
Complicated issue, you subsidized your steel industries for years at the
expense of the US industry, then you decide to opt for "free trade". Oh
well, don't buy any US banannas either.
> What do you think about the politics of the US at the moment, and what can
> be done to make sure Bush won't go into historybooks as the initiator of
> destruction of mankind)!?
That honor will probably go to Al Queda if this situation goes that far.
Interesting how the EU can't seem to remember anything that happened
before last week.
Flyfish
Lesley
at
> > the moment (Iraq-attack, nuclear weapons, Iran- and China-critique), I
think
> > Europe must redefine its support to the US.
> >
>
> Please do. Easy to do now that the US paid the bill to bankrupt the only
> danger you've ever faced other than each other. 50 years of hiding
> behind our military and now you want to drive the bus?
That's the problem of Americans. They only think in aggressive ways! You
simply cannot force other countries to follow Western countries by
implanting "democracy". There are other cultures than Western! These other
cultures need other ways to be governed than by a president... By forcing
Afghanistan to form a parliament the danger hasn't disappeared! Don't you
see that? Why do Americans think their governmental structure is superior
and what gives them the right to force other nations to apply to the same
structure?
>
> > Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on
Bush
> > and his politics are growing every second. It's impossible for Europe
not to
> > respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake of world peace.
>
> Good, I noticed that the Netherlands hasn't had a terrorist atrocity
> recently, wonder how your tune would change then?
Maybe you should ask yourself WHY the Netherlands didn't had a terrorist
atrocity recently...?
> > A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
> > considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership
of
> > the US in the UN should be evaluated.
>
> The Saudi's are now backpedaling, "Well we wouldn't actually recognize
> the State of Israel", in other words give us the land, and nothing will
> change. Despite this the US has urged Israel to consider the Saudi
> proposal. For years the Europeans have sold the arabs the weapons to
> hammer Israel, now you're interested in peace?
The Netherlands have always had a good relationship with Israel, just like o
ther European nations. It's very hard to believe we sold weapons to the Arab
(and it would make no sense!)
>
> Go ahead throw the US out of the UN, NATO too. Then do your own dirty
> work in Kosovo instead of begging the US to do it for you, have a nice
> day while every punk with 3 tanks, a dozen AK47's and a SA6 terrorizes
> your pathetic military forces.
Again, just think about aggressive solutions... Bush did a good job in
brainwashing you (axis of evil, don't make me laugh!)
> > Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't respect
the
> > guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
>
> Complicated issue, you subsidized your steel industries for years at the
> expense of the US industry, then you decide to opt for "free trade". Oh
> well, don't buy any US banannas either.
US Steel producers are just not efficient enough in producing steel!!!
That's why US-companies bought from European companies: they're more
efficient!
>
> > What do you think about the politics of the US at the moment, and what
can
> > be done to make sure Bush won't go into historybooks as the initiator of
> > destruction of mankind)!?
>
> That honor will probably go to Al Queda if this situation goes that far.
> Interesting how the EU can't seem to remember anything that happened
> before last week.
Choose between the greatest impact:
- some planes in some buildings
- using nucluar weapons
Which one is most destructive?
>
> Flyfish
agi...@woh.rr.com
"Lesley" <lesley...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:a6iqlo$4tu$1...@reader06.wxs.nl...
> Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on
Bush
> and his politics are growing every second.
Oh no! The Netherlands are against us! Whatever will we do? I guess we
won't rush over to bail the rest of Europe out next time the Germans and
Russians are feeling fiesty.
>It's impossible for Europe not to
> respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake >of world peace.
Again, how will Europe respond? Its easy for Europeans to criticize when
they are not the ones who are under attack. What happened to all the unity
after 9-11? All of Europe said they wanted to see the people responsible
for the attacks brought to justice. But, when it comes time to get down and
dirty, you bail out like Frenchmen. Did you expect us to just forget the
whole thing happened and prepare for the next attack?
> A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
> considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership of
> the US in the UN should be evaluated.
I agree. I have felt for sometime that the US should leave the UN. The UN
is a bureacratic pain in the ass that is a tool of third world primates.
When terrorist countries like Syria have an equal voice to the US and the
rest of the decent world, you know something is wrong.
The Saudi Arabian plan is nothing new. Just more "land for peace".
Rewarding Arafat for his terrorism. Nothing new. Clinton tried that, but
Arafat isn't a leader, he's a terrorist. If Israel gives him all the land
he wants, he will be forced to actually lead the Palestinian people, which
he could not do.
> Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't respect
the
> guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
Right. We have a billion dollar trade deficit, and yet we're the ones
screwing everyone else over.
> What do you think about the politics of the US at the moment, and what can
> be done to make sure Bush won't go into historybooks as the initiator of
> destruction of mankind)!?
What can you do? Aside from spewing your opinion like its the Gospel over
the internet? Nothing....which is pretty much what Europe does. I realize
the European way is to sit and let power hungry lunatics run rampant
(Hitler, Milosevic, etc...), but across the pond, we take threats to our
security a little more seriously. Unless you believe "mankind" to be
Islamic extremists, your statement has no validity at all.
agi...@woh.rr.com
> > Please do. Easy to do now that the US paid the bill to bankrupt the only
> > danger you've ever faced other than each other. 50 years of hiding
> > behind our military and now you want to drive the bus?
>
> That's the problem of Americans. They only think in aggressive ways! You
> simply cannot force other countries to follow Western countries by
> implanting "democracy". There are other cultures than Western! These other
> cultures need other ways to be governed than by a president... By forcing
> Afghanistan to form a parliament the danger hasn't disappeared! Don't you
> see that? Why do Americans think their governmental structure is superior
> and what gives them the right to force other nations to apply to the same
> structure?
What are you talking about? This is a bit out off track. You didn't even
answer what he said.
> > Good, I noticed that the Netherlands hasn't had a terrorist atrocity
> > recently, wonder how your tune would change then?
>
> Maybe you should ask yourself WHY the Netherlands didn't had a terrorist
> atrocity recently...?
Probably the same reason why all good police officers get sued at least
once. If you right a wrong, the evil doer is going to want revenge. Since
the Islamic world is militarily inferior to the US, they have to engage us
with terrorist tactics. In fact, in the past 100 years, Islamic terrorist
groups have had their asses kicked by the US, Russia, India, Serbia, Kenya,
and Israel. They get thumped in one place, and just pop up somewhere else.
You ought to know that even if the Netherlands doesn't get involved with
Middle Eastern politics, the threat of Islamic extremism could spread there.
Why? Because that's what they do. Dogs bark, babies cry, and Islamic
extremists kill non-Muslims. Its an obvious pattern that has repeated
itself all over Central Asia and is only spreading West...
> > The Saudi's are now backpedaling, "Well we wouldn't actually recognize
> > the State of Israel", in other words give us the land, and nothing will
> > change. Despite this the US has urged Israel to consider the Saudi
> > proposal. For years the Europeans have sold the arabs the weapons to
> > hammer Israel, now you're interested in peace?
>
> The Netherlands have always had a good relationship with Israel, just like
o
> ther European nations. It's very hard to believe we sold weapons to the
Arab
> (and it would make no sense!)
But, why would you want Israel to give up the Golan Heights then? This
small piece of land makes up all the difference in a Syrian invasion.
> Again, just think about aggressive solutions... Bush did a good job in
> brainwashing you (axis of evil, don't make me laugh!)
Actually, most of us thought that before. What other solutions are there
for dealing with Iran, Iraq, and Al-Qaeda? You can't reason with these
people. You can't compromise with them. What do you do? Just give them
what they want and hope they don't ask for more? Didn't World War 2 teach
you people anything?
> > That honor will probably go to Al Queda if this situation goes that far.
> > Interesting how the EU can't seem to remember anything that happened
> > before last week.
>
> Choose between the greatest impact:
> - some planes in some buildings
> - using nucluar weapons
>
> Which one is most destructive?
Depends...Besides, who said we're planning to use nuclear weapons? I'm
wondering if people read a different article in the LA Times than I did.
Its a contingency plan for worst case scenarios. Nothing wrong with that.
Besides, if we were planning to throw nukes around, why would we be stupid
enough to let the newspapers find out about it? I realize you don't think
much of Americans, but give us more credit than that!
Lesley
> In response to an ultra Left wing Euro-liberal...
As a mather of fact, I'm not Left-wing. I just represent a very normal
European voice cencerning US.
> > Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on
> Bush
> > and his politics are growing every second.
>
> Oh no! The Netherlands are against us! Whatever will we do? I guess we
> won't rush over to bail the rest of Europe out next time the Germans and
> Russians are feeling fiesty.
It's really the only thing you can talk about, isn't it? WAR! As you read
carefully, we're not againt the US whatsoever, but we're concerned about the
dangerous politics Bush is pursuing! Why do you want to control and
influence the rest of the world. And when a part of that world is not
listening, you thread with nuclear weapons! Don't think the Western
democracy is superior to other governmental structures! It's different, not
better! If you had left the mideast alone, there would had been no dancing
Palestinians om 9-11-2001. There even would not have been WTC-disaster! By
mixing into other countries politics, and merely forcing them to apply the
Western view of government, you're not making friend (I don't tell your
parents how to raise you, do I? And if I did, where they be happy with that?
Don't think so... Although, you never know with American books like: "How to
raise your child in 10 steps ;-)).
>
> >It's impossible for Europe not to
> > respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake >of world peace.
>
> Again, how will Europe respond? Its easy for Europeans to criticize when
> they are not the ones who are under attack. What happened to all the
unity
> after 9-11? All of Europe said they wanted to see the people responsible
> for the attacks brought to justice. But, when it comes time to get down
and
> dirty, you bail out like Frenchmen. Did you expect us to just forget the
> whole thing happened and prepare for the next attack?
Why so angry, my friend? It's not about RESPONDING to attacks, it's about NO
INCENTIVES for attacks. You take the wrong point as prim! It's about making
sure no one has an incentive to attack someone else. How can that be
achieved? By respecting other cultures and the way they evolve over time,
without interfering in others NATIONAL politics!
>
> > A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
> > considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership
of
> > the US in the UN should be evaluated.
>
> I agree. I have felt for sometime that the US should leave the UN. The
UN
> is a bureacratic pain in the ass that is a tool of third world primates.
> When terrorist countries like Syria have an equal voice to the US and the
> rest of the decent world, you know something is wrong.
Which country killed more innocent people, do you think? Syria or US? Even
in the US there's a death-penalty. Something of midages...
>
> The Saudi Arabian plan is nothing new. Just more "land for peace".
> Rewarding Arafat for his terrorism. Nothing new. Clinton tried that, but
> Arafat isn't a leader, he's a terrorist. If Israel gives him all the land
> he wants, he will be forced to actually lead the Palestinian people, which
> he could not do.
I hope we can see this one time. The violent the people are in over there
does not make any sense!
>
> > Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't respect
> the
> > guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
>
> Right. We have a billion dollar trade deficit, and yet we're the ones
> screwing everyone else over.
US is defending free trade, but not when it one sector is not efficient
enough? Ambigious!
>
> > What do you think about the politics of the US at the moment, and what
can
> > be done to make sure Bush won't go into historybooks as the initiator of
> > destruction of mankind)!?
>
> What can you do? Aside from spewing your opinion like its the Gospel over
> the internet? Nothing....which is pretty much what Europe does. I
realize
> the European way is to sit and let power hungry lunatics run rampant
> (Hitler, Milosevic, etc...), but across the pond, we take threats to our
> security a little more seriously. Unless you believe "mankind" to be
> Islamic extremists, your statement has no validity at all.
Again: it's not about securing that you won't be harmed by higher
securitylevels (in every house can be broken in), it's about creating an
environment in which people do not feel like breaking in, because they don't
hate the others...
And remember, I'm NOT left-wing. I just look further than your if... then
approach to the world...
If they attach, then we'll strike back...==> vicious circle!
>
>
Lesley
only
> > > danger you've ever faced other than each other. 50 years of hiding
> > > behind our military and now you want to drive the bus?
> >
> > That's the problem of Americans. They only think in aggressive ways! You
> > simply cannot force other countries to follow Western countries by
> > implanting "democracy". There are other cultures than Western! These
other
> > cultures need other ways to be governed than by a president... By
forcing
> > Afghanistan to form a parliament the danger hasn't disappeared! Don't
you
> > see that? Why do Americans think their governmental structure is
superior
> > and what gives them the right to force other nations to apply to the
same
> > structure?
>
> What are you talking about? This is a bit out off track. You didn't even
> answer what he said.
By anwering his question I won't deal what it is REALLY about. It would lead
to a yes-no discussion where both of us are right, from his own view. That's
why I go above that in avoiding that!
>
> > > Good, I noticed that the Netherlands hasn't had a terrorist atrocity
> > > recently, wonder how your tune would change then?
> >
> > Maybe you should ask yourself WHY the Netherlands didn't had a terrorist
> > atrocity recently...?
>
> Probably the same reason why all good police officers get sued at least
> once. If you right a wrong, the evil doer is going to want revenge
?
Since the Islamic world is militarily inferior to the US, they have to
engage us with terrorist tactics.
WRONG!!! Why would they want that? They don't war! But if they're national
politics are constantly interfered they'll: What are they doing here? This
is our country! What does a country, somewhere in the ocean has to do with
that!
In fact, in the past 100 years, Islamic terrorist
> groups have had their asses kicked by the US, Russia, India, Serbia,
Kenya,
> and Israel.
What were they doing there, then? And more important: WHY???
>They get thumped in one place, and just pop up somewhere else.
> You ought to know that even if the Netherlands doesn't get involved with
> Middle Eastern politics, the threat of Islamic extremism could spread
there.
You're right, because unfortunately, not everyone in the Netherlands is
smart!
> Why? Because that's what they do. Dogs bark, babies cry, and Islamic
extremists kill non-Muslims. Its an obvious pattern that has repeated
> itself all over Central Asia and is only spreading West...
Simplistic view.
>
> > > The Saudi's are now backpedaling, "Well we wouldn't actually recognize
> > > the State of Israel", in other words give us the land, and nothing
will
> > > change. Despite this the US has urged Israel to consider the Saudi
> > > proposal. For years the Europeans have sold the arabs the weapons to
> > > hammer Israel, now you're interested in peace?
> >
> > The Netherlands have always had a good relationship with Israel, just
like
> o
> > ther European nations. It's very hard to believe we sold weapons to the
> Arab
> > (and it would make no sense!)
>
> But, why would you want Israel to give up the Golan Heights then? This
> small piece of land makes up all the difference in a Syrian invasion.
>
> > Again, just think about aggressive solutions... Bush did a good job in
> > brainwashing you (axis of evil, don't make me laugh!)
>
> Actually, most of us thought that before. What other solutions are there
> for dealing with Iran, Iraq, and Al-Qaeda? You can't reason with these
> people.
Well, why son't we just leave them alone and let them do their own politics
in stead of war? It's their choice how to pursue politics, why should we
interfere?
>You can't compromise with them. What do you do? Just give them
> what they want and hope they don't ask for more? Didn't World War 2 teach
> you people anything?
It teached us that an instable environment is making people think crazy.
That's why I understand your point of view, you're scared. In stead of
slamming down the people who stand up in such instable environments (e.g.
Hitler, Stalin, Milosevic, Mao, Bush, Castro) you'd better start to create
an environment that is not instable!
> > > That honor will probably go to Al Queda if this situation goes that
far.
> > > Interesting how the EU can't seem to remember anything that happened
> > > before last week.
> >
> > Choose between the greatest impact:
> > - some planes in some buildings
> > - using nucluar weapons
> >
> > Which one is most destructive?
>
> Depends...Besides, who said we're planning to use nuclear weapons? I'm
> wondering if people read a different article in the LA Times than I did.
> Its a contingency plan for worst case scenarios. Nothing wrong with that.
> Besides, if we were planning to throw nukes around, why would we be stupid
> enough to let the newspapers find out about it? I realize you don't think
> much of Americans, but give us more credit than that!
What should we think of objective news in the US, when the Pentagon was (is)
considering propaganda (in the 21st century, please wake up!). Maybe you can
influence non-critics, but here in Europe, we've always been some more
critic against everything that comes on our path.
>
>
Lesley
> only reason why our monkey leaders keep them) in the UN, and the UN has
> no business in NYC.
>
> Everybody can deal with their own damm problems
Why is US so heavily involved in foreign politics, forcing other countries
to apply to the Western model?
, and those who can't deal
> with their issues can get pushed out of existance in accordance to
> evolution.
> We are not the world, never we the world,don't want to be the world
AGAIN: why so much interference then?
> , it's distinctly UNAmerican, for most of our existance, we were very
> isolationist, and it's about time our leaders brought us back to our
> roots.
>
> And for christ sakes, stop letting the forigners come to our shores, the
> last thing we need are more human monkeys.
Do not forget the Indians! Who where the first foreigners and who where the
first real habitants (please read: GUNS, GERMS & STEEL [a short history for
everybondy of the last 13,000 years] by Jarred Diamond!)? Right, the
European (now Americans).
ValuedCustomer
no longer have to shoulder the burden of their defense.
After we've left, the Euros will enjoy every day like it's a holiday. You
see, without America's marketplace, most Europeans will be unemployed. The
ones that remain employed will be feeding the others.
"Lesley" <lesley...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:a6iqlo$4tu$1...@reader06.wxs.nl...
Peter J Lusby
> > In response to an ultra Left wing Euro-liberal...
>
> As a mather of fact, I'm not Left-wing. I just represent a very normal
> European voice cencerning US.
Given that the right wing of European politics is somewhere to the left of the
left wing of American politics, this "very normal European voice" necessarily
appears "ultra Left wing" to the normal American listener.
> > > Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on
> > Bush
> > > and his politics are growing every second.
> >
> > Oh no! The Netherlands are against us! Whatever will we do? I guess we
> > won't rush over to bail the rest of Europe out next time the Germans and
> > Russians are feeling fiesty.
>
> It's really the only thing you can talk about, isn't it? WAR!
But that's what is going on right now. The whole issue, and even the approach
that you are taking, concerns war.
> As you read
> carefully, we're not againt the US whatsoever, but we're concerned about the
> dangerous politics Bush is pursuing! Why do you want to control and
> influence the rest of the world.
We don't. We just want to prevent thugs and murderers from slaughtering our
women, our children, our breadwinners, wherever they might happen to be on the
planet. As long as you leave us alone, we'll leave you alone. Please note, for
example, that it is not the US that attempts to dictate to any other country how
they should treat their convicted criminals.
> And when a part of that world is not
> listening, you thread with nuclear weapons! Don't think the Western
> democracy is superior to other governmental structures! It's different, not
> better! If you had left the mideast alone, there would had been no dancing
> Palestinians om 9-11-2001.
This is patently absurd. It is because the US has held the brakes on Israel's
retribution, and promoted appeasement by Israel of the Palestinian thugs and
murderers that the Palestinians have developed the attitude that Israel is weak,
helpless and unwilling to defend itself. Since the Bush administration changed
that policy to one of complete non-intervention, the world has seen the effects
of unbridled Israeli retaliation to each and every incident perpetrated by
Arafat and his henchmen.
> There even would not have been WTC-disaster! By
> mixing into other countries politics, and merely forcing them to apply the
> Western view of government, you're not making friend (I don't tell your
> parents how to raise you, do I? And if I did, where they be happy with that?
> Don't think so... Although, you never know with American books like: "How to
> raise your child in 10 steps ;-)).
>
> >
> > >It's impossible for Europe not to
> > > respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake >of world peace.
> >
> > Again, how will Europe respond? Its easy for Europeans to criticize when
> > they are not the ones who are under attack. What happened to all the
> unity
> > after 9-11? All of Europe said they wanted to see the people responsible
> > for the attacks brought to justice. But, when it comes time to get down
> and
> > dirty, you bail out like Frenchmen. Did you expect us to just forget the
> > whole thing happened and prepare for the next attack?
>
> Why so angry, my friend? It's not about RESPONDING to attacks, it's about NO
> INCENTIVES for attacks.
But you can't eliminate the incentives for the attacks, because the incentive is
built into the religion - Islam was founded in violence and bloodshed, spread at
swordpoint, and flourishes today in hatred, murder and mayhem. It is the
natural heir of Mithraism or the cult of Kali or Thuggee. The only way to
eliminate the violence is to eliminate the religion, and neither our conscience
nor our constitution will allow us to do that.
> You take the wrong point as prim! It's about making
> sure no one has an incentive to attack someone else. How can that be
> achieved?
It can't, as long as cultures exist where violence and murder are a way of life,
where ideas are repressed, where hard work results only in poverty and misery,
where 1% of the population owns 99% of the wealth, and exploits that wealth to
make sure things stay that way, then there will always be an incentive to attack
someone else, either to divert the population's attentions away from its own
misery. or simply to justify its own continuation.
> By respecting other cultures and the way they evolve over time,
> without interfering in others NATIONAL politics!
Sometimes the international community has to interfere in the internal politics
of other countries, just as sometimes the police of any nation has to interfere
in the domestic disputes within a family, in order to maintain law and order,
prevent abuse of innocents, and preserve lives. Unfortunately for the USA, we
have for too long been regarded by the world at large as the world's policeman,
to be called upon whenever Amnesty International or the IRC or the UN feels that
some dictator has overstepped the bounds. As soon as we respond, as we
inevitably do, on the principle of "noblesse oblige," we lay ourselves open to
criticism for interfering. But, of course, if we do nothing, then someone else
gets on our case for being isolationist. We can't win.
>
> >
> > > A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
> > > considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership
> of
> > > the US in the UN should be evaluated.
> >
> > I agree. I have felt for sometime that the US should leave the UN. The
> UN
> > is a bureacratic pain in the ass that is a tool of third world primates.
> > When terrorist countries like Syria have an equal voice to the US and the
> > rest of the decent world, you know something is wrong.
>
> Which country killed more innocent people, do you think? Syria or US? Even
> in the US there's a death-penalty. Something of midages...
Here's exactly the point I was making above. You cannot at the same time
complain about the US interfering in other countries internal affairs, and
criticise the US for executing its felons. If you are really sincere about
seeing an end to the US death penalty, then by all means offer to take in and
keep under lock and key for all time, at your taxpayers' expense, those who
have been sentenced to death in the USA. If you are not prepared to do this,
then you have no right to say anything about how the USA treats them. And, even
if you do offer to house and feed them for the rest of their lives, you still
forfeit the right to any criticism of US foreign policy simply by your
interference in American domestic affairs.
>
>
> >
> > The Saudi Arabian plan is nothing new. Just more "land for peace".
> > Rewarding Arafat for his terrorism. Nothing new. Clinton tried that, but
> > Arafat isn't a leader, he's a terrorist. If Israel gives him all the land
> > he wants, he will be forced to actually lead the Palestinian people, which
> > he could not do.
>
> I hope we can see this one time. The violent the people are in over there
> does not make any sense!
>
It makes perfect sense if you understand that the Islamic way is to lie, cheat,
steal and kill to get what they want. Arafat and his thugs don't want peace,
they want the total elimination of Israel. This is the only solution they are
willing to accept. This is what they have trained and educated their people to
want for half a century. Bin Laden and his ilk want nothing more than the total
destruction of Western civilization. Arafat and his scum will settle for its
elimination from their neighbourhood, but nothing less.
Regards
Peter
--
"A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware" - Rupert Brooke - "The Soldier"
Peter J Lusby
San Diego, California, USA
www.lusby.org
Peter J Lusby
Lesley wrote:
>
> Well, why son't we just leave them alone and let them do their own politics
> in stead of war? It's their choice how to pursue politics, why should we
> interfere?
>
I'll answer that when you can explain to me why you can't just leave America
alone when it comes to the death penalty. It's America's choice how to deal
with criminals, why should you interfere?
Warm regards
AV
> The U.S.A. should have sent the U.N. packing YEARS ago! The U.N. sucks!
>
> Europe as well, can go get fucked.
Nice resume of the US external policy ....
AV
> I agree. I have felt for sometime that the US should leave the UN. The UN
> is a bureacratic pain in the ass that is a tool of third world primates.
> When terrorist countries like Syria have an equal voice to the US and the
> rest of the decent world, you know something is wrong.
That's what democracy is about, pal. Everyone has equal voice, unless
proved not eligible.
AV
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:48:30 -0800, Lesley wrote:
>
> We vehemently agree one one thing, the US has no business(well that's the
> only reason why our monkey leaders keep them) in the UN, and the UN has
> no business in NYC.
>
> Everybody can deal with their own damm problems, and those who can't deal
> with their issues can get pushed out of existance in accordance to
> evolution.
>
> We are not the world, never we the world,don't want to be the world, it's
> distinctly UNAmerican, for most of our existance, we were very
> isolationist, and it's about time our leaders brought us back to our
> roots.
>
> And for christ sakes, stop letting the forigners come to our shores, the
> last thing we need are more human monkeys.
Sorry guy, without constant influx of foreigners US is dead. As those monkeys
get most Ph D's ...
AV
> US is defending free trade, but not when it one sector is not efficient
> enough? Ambigious!
America also respects international treaties. But only when it profits from them
...
Zino
I think you should broaden your intellectual horizons. Read some history
books about China, and maybe find out what their real attitude about the
West has always been. Read up on the two Koreas and the history of the
conflict there. Maybe learn something about how North Korea's rulers treat
their citizens. Then do some digging about Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the
other sheikdoms and KINGdoms in the Arab world. And don't forget to read
about how Europe thought that the Nazis could be appeased. Really dig deeply
for some facts about all these things. Then, after you have a good idea of
what all these people are up to, try and think of foreign policy as it
always has been thought of until Clinton came along. Think in terms of the
next twenty years, instead of the next twenty minutes. The newspapers are
not serving you well. I think if you do as I recommend, you will come to a
startlingly different conclusion than the one you have come to now. There is
solid reasonong behind what Bush is doing, but it just doesn't seem to fit
into the PC image of "everybody is nice except for the US". Here's the first
question on our world affairs quiz. Are the Chinese exporting missile and
nuclear technology to the afore mentioned nations as fast as they can
because there is a science fair coming up?
>
>
>
AV
> Lesley wrote:
>
> >
> > Well, why son't we just leave them alone and let them do their own politics
> > in stead of war? It's their choice how to pursue politics, why should we
> > interfere?
> >
>
> I'll answer that when you can explain to me why you can't just leave America
> alone when it comes to the death penalty. It's America's choice how to deal
> with criminals, why should you interfere?
Funny, Americans don't themselves consider it other countries' choice how to
treat their people, including crinimals.
ValuedCustomer
"AV" <A...@nospam.ru> wrote in message news:3C8D3D09...@nospam.ru...
Peter J Lusby
> Peter J Lusby wrote:
>
> > Lesley wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Well, why son't we just leave them alone and let them do their own politics
> > > in stead of war? It's their choice how to pursue politics, why should we
> > > interfere?
> > >
> >
> > I'll answer that when you can explain to me why you can't just leave America
> > alone when it comes to the death penalty. It's America's choice how to deal
> > with criminals, why should you interfere?
>
> Funny, Americans don't themselves consider it other countries' choice how to
> treat their people, including crinimals.
That doesn't address the issue at all. Europe thinks it is perfectly acceptable to
meddle in an entirely internal American issue, and then has the unmitigated gall and
hypocrisy to accuse America of interfering in other countries' internal affairs.
Let's get one thing straight here. If you live in a perfect country, that is run
with perfect justice by perfect politicians, and has a perfect foreign policy with
regards to its neighbours and to the world at large, then we'd love to hear from
you. If you don't, then go fix your own place before you presume to tell anyone
else how to mind their own business.
First cast the beam from thine own eye.
Ian Davis
Lesley <lesley...@planet.nl> wrote:
>
>> In response to an ultra Left wing Euro-liberal...
>
>As a mather of fact, I'm not Left-wing. I just represent a very normal
>European voice cencerning US.
>
>
The very normal voice in Canada or Europe is ultra Left wing liberal to
many in the US. I have concluded that this stems from the inability of
many Americans to relate in any meaningful way to the concept of society,
even though this same society will out live each and every one of them.
Their focus on the importance of the individual, and their belief in the
divine right of the individual to act competitively in the individuals own
self interest all but excludes awareness of the collective.
Thus social issues and concerns such as truth, justice, right and wrong,
lie outside mainstream America's collective conscience or grasp. They
are replaced by "good" and "bad", "fortunate" and "unfortunate". As a
consequence much that might be said by "a very normal European voice",
is deemed by some American listeners to be the lunacy of the naive,
who clearly need to be defended from themselves, as well as from others.
"The United States doesn't have friends; it only has interests, warned
Milosevic's Socialist Party."
This is probably a fair portrayal of the US mindset. Regards, Ian
efkent
is on line with the nazi's National Socialists.
Believe me, he represents less than ten percent of the American population.
The Saudi's have spoken and Bush will listen. He has no other choice.
Rest assured that Sharon will obey.
zionism=$=racism.
Theo <th...@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2t6j8.135673$Hu6.33...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
Peter J Lusby
Ian Davis wrote:
> In article <a6j358$ba0$1...@reader06.wxs.nl>,
> Lesley <lesley...@planet.nl> wrote:
> >
> >> In response to an ultra Left wing Euro-liberal...
> >
> >As a mather of fact, I'm not Left-wing. I just represent a very normal
> >European voice cencerning US.
> >
> >
>
> The very normal voice in Canada or Europe is ultra Left wing liberal to
> many in the US. I have concluded that this stems from the inability of
> many Americans to relate in any meaningful way to the concept of society,
> even though this same society will out live each and every one of them.
Nope. It stems from the inability of the average European, and of many
Canadians, to see beyond his own personal selfish interests, and his
consequent obsession with getting his "fair share" of any handouts that may be
going around, whilst avoiding any kind of social or personal responsibility
for his behaviour.
> Their focus on the importance of the individual, and their belief in the
> divine right of the individual to act competitively in the individuals own
> self interest all but excludes awareness of the collective.
Which is as it should be, since in any free society, the collective exists
only as long as the individual is willing to subscribe to it.
>
>
> Thus social issues and concerns such as truth, justice, right and wrong,
> lie outside mainstream America's collective conscience or grasp.
Nope. Concepts such as truth, justice, right and wrong only have any meaning
in society where the individual has the freedom to exercise his own
judgement. When every thought, word and deed is carefully planned and
circumscribed by the collective, truth, justice, right and wrong cease to have
any real meaning, becoming instead mere tools to control the collective.
> They
> are replaced by "good" and "bad", "fortunate" and "unfortunate". As a
> consequence much that might be said by "a very normal European voice",
> is deemed by some American listeners to be the lunacy of the naive,
> who clearly need to be defended from themselves, as well as from others.
As an American (by choice, not by an accident of birth), I am not the least
interested in defending anyone from themselves - that is the obsession of
interfering liberal lefties who refuse to allow people to make their own
mistakes, and thereby learn from them, preferring instead to try to jam
everyone into the same inhibiting and debilitating mould.
> "The United States doesn't have friends; it only has interests, warned
> Milosevic's Socialist Party."
What next? A quote from Josef Stalin? Karl Marx? Vladimir Lenin? At least
we know exactly where you stand politically.
> This is probably a fair portrayal of the US mindset.
The USA is made up of 350 million individuals with 350 million "mindsets."
Anyone who believes that you can get even half that many people all to think
the same thing is too dangerous to be let out of the asylum. If you really
think you know how to do it, I'd suggest that you either patent the idea
immediately, or see a psychiatrist.
efkent
ability.
zionism=$=racism.
<am...@mortal.com> wrote in message
news:3c8d246c$0$63543$e2e...@nntp.cts.com...
> In soc.culture.british Theo <th...@cinci.rr.com> wrote:
> > The U.S.A. should have sent the U.N. packing YEARS ago! The U.N. sucks!
>
> > Europe as well, can go get fucked.
>
> Aw come on; it was just one cuckoo clock-building tulip-sniffing
> clog-wearing twat who wrote that.
efkent
to some third world county to do their raping and strong arming.
zionism=$=racism.
Flyfish <d...@deja.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.16f6c4ef3...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
efkent
Monarchists, controlled by the house of Rothschild.
America is not a Democracy, it is a autocracy that is controlled by less
than 100 persons. And it is capable in doing this through its shadow
government (NSA) which really rules America. The Globalists (alias) the
Trilatralists is its front.
zionism=$=racism.
Lesley <lesley...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:a6iv2l$87f$1...@reader06.wxs.nl...
efkent
to know your opinion it you were the one being strapped to the wired chair.
zionism=$=racism.
Peter J Lusby <p...@lusby.org> wrote in message
news:3C8D230E...@lusby.org...
Peter J Lusby
> This koot is a classic example of a American red neck cracker. His mentality
> is on line with the nazi's National Socialists.
> Believe me, he represents less than ten percent of the American population.
Which would still be some 35 million people, or about the population of a decent
sized European country
>
> The Saudi's have spoken and Bush will listen.
Bush certainly will listen. He is a very polite, highly educated, and
politically astute man. He will then go ahead and do whatever he sees as being
in the best interests of the country he has sworn to protect and defend, without
regard to what the Saudis may or may not like.
> He has no other choice.
Oh, but he does. He has, amongst other things, the choice to nuke Saudi Arabia
into oblivion, though I personally doubt that he will exercise that choice.
> Rest assured that Sharon will obey.
Absent any extreme pressure from the USA, which at this juncture seems very
unlikely, Sharon will do whatever he deems to be in the best interest of
Israel. We may disagree with his assessment of what constitutes Israel's best
interests, but none of us is in any position to make our opinion count in such
matters, whereas he is.
> zionism=$=racism.
Anyone who can spout this tired, ignorant, discredited old claptrap in this day
and age needs to get a life, and an education. Once again we see in action the
lesson so well taught by the Komintern to their proxies the world around - be
the first to accuse your enemies of doing what you are doing, so that their
response seems to be mere finger pointing. It's quite amazing that it is still
being trotted out when the Soviet Union has been dead for so many years. It
doesn't work any more, bird-brain. No-one is fooled by this pathetic attempt to
disguise your blatant racism and anti-Semitism.
Peter J Lusby
efkent wrote:
> America is at the stage that Europe was 100 years ago. Under corrupt
> Monarchists, controlled by the house of Rothschild.
What next? Holocaust denial? You really are a pathetic little moron.
efkent
zionism=$=racism.
Peter J Lusby <p...@lusby.org> wrote in message
news:3C8D4977...@lusby.org...
Zino
"efkent" <efkent@fusenet> wrote in message
news:u8qkrhi...@corp.supernews.com...
> This koot is a classic example of a American red neck cracker. His
mentality
> is on line with the nazi's National Socialists.
> Believe me, he represents less than ten percent of the American
population.
> The Saudi's have spoken and Bush will listen. He has no other choice.
> Rest assured that Sharon will obey.
> zionism=$=racism.
This coming from the classic all-American grovel-weenie. Funny.
Peter J Lusby
> Hey I am a American and I strongly condemn the death penalty. I would like
> to know your opinion it you were the one being strapped to the wired chair.
> zionism=$=racism.
>
People like you are not worth holding serious arguments with. You have the
brains of a mud-turtle and the morals of an Auschwitz guard. I hope your mother
gets raped and murdered by a gang of drugged out thugs, so you can have the
opportunity to forgive them. Then we'll see how much you really are against the
death penalty.
Zino
"AV" <A...@nospam.ru> wrote in message news:3C8D41A2...@nospam.ru...
> Peter J Lusby wrote:
>
> > Lesley wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Well, why son't we just leave them alone and let them do their own
politics
> > > in stead of war? It's their choice how to pursue politics, why should
we
> > > interfere?
> > >
> >
> > I'll answer that when you can explain to me why you can't just leave
America
> > alone when it comes to the death penalty. It's America's choice how to
deal
> > with criminals, why should you interfere?
>
> Funny, Americans don't themselves consider it other countries' choice how
to
> treat their people, including crinimals.
You mean like beheading them or cutting their hands off? If you ever go to
prison, pray to GOD that it's an American prison.
efkent
Ask any elderly European that lived thru the 2nd. World War and they will
say that these American defrocked (yes that is what they are ) KKK'ers are
using exactly the same rigmarole that Hitler's brown shirts used. "Either
agree with us or get the billy across your head." But what does one expect
from a beer hall bully?
It is shameful that National Socialism is rearing its ugly head in America
at this time and being egged on by the American President.
zionism=$=racism.
Lesley <lesley...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:a6j358$ba0$1...@reader06.wxs.nl...
>
> > In response to an ultra Left wing Euro-liberal...
>
> As a mather of fact, I'm not Left-wing. I just represent a very normal
> European voice cencerning US.
>
>
> > > Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy
on
> > Bush
> > > and his politics are growing every second.
> >
> > Oh no! The Netherlands are against us! Whatever will we do? I guess
we
> > won't rush over to bail the rest of Europe out next time the Germans and
> > Russians are feeling fiesty.
>
> It's really the only thing you can talk about, isn't it? WAR! As you read
> carefully, we're not againt the US whatsoever, but we're concerned about
the
> dangerous politics Bush is pursuing! Why do you want to control and
> influence the rest of the world. And when a part of that world is not
> listening, you thread with nuclear weapons! Don't think the Western
> democracy is superior to other governmental structures! It's different,
not
> better! If you had left the mideast alone, there would had been no dancing
> Palestinians om 9-11-2001. There even would not have been WTC-disaster! By
> mixing into other countries politics, and merely forcing them to apply the
> Western view of government, you're not making friend (I don't tell your
> parents how to raise you, do I? And if I did, where they be happy with
that?
> Don't think so... Although, you never know with American books like: "How
to
> raise your child in 10 steps ;-)).
>
> >
> > >It's impossible for Europe not to
> > > respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake >of world
peace.
> >
> > Again, how will Europe respond? Its easy for Europeans to criticize
when
> > they are not the ones who are under attack. What happened to all the
> unity
> > after 9-11? All of Europe said they wanted to see the people
responsible
> > for the attacks brought to justice. But, when it comes time to get down
> and
> > dirty, you bail out like Frenchmen. Did you expect us to just forget
the
> > whole thing happened and prepare for the next attack?
>
> Why so angry, my friend? It's not about RESPONDING to attacks, it's about
NO
> INCENTIVES for attacks. You take the wrong point as prim! It's about
making
> sure no one has an incentive to attack someone else. How can that be
> achieved? By respecting other cultures and the way they evolve over time,
> without interfering in others NATIONAL politics!
> >
> > > A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
> > > considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership
> of
> > > the US in the UN should be evaluated.
> >
> > I agree. I have felt for sometime that the US should leave the UN. The
> UN
> > is a bureacratic pain in the ass that is a tool of third world primates.
> > When terrorist countries like Syria have an equal voice to the US and
the
> > rest of the decent world, you know something is wrong.
>
> Which country killed more innocent people, do you think? Syria or US? Even
> in the US there's a death-penalty. Something of midages...
>
> >
> > The Saudi Arabian plan is nothing new. Just more "land for peace".
> > Rewarding Arafat for his terrorism. Nothing new. Clinton tried that,
but
> > Arafat isn't a leader, he's a terrorist. If Israel gives him all the
land
> > he wants, he will be forced to actually lead the Palestinian people,
which
> > he could not do.
>
> I hope we can see this one time. The violent the people are in over there
> does not make any sense!
>
> >
> > > Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't
respect
> > the
> > > guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
> >
> > Right. We have a billion dollar trade deficit, and yet we're the ones
> > screwing everyone else over.
>
> US is defending free trade, but not when it one sector is not efficient
> enough? Ambigious!
>
>
> >
> > > What do you think about the politics of the US at the moment, and what
> can
> > > be done to make sure Bush won't go into historybooks as the initiator
of
> > > destruction of mankind)!?
> >
> > What can you do? Aside from spewing your opinion like its the Gospel
over
> > the internet? Nothing....which is pretty much what Europe does. I
> realize
> > the European way is to sit and let power hungry lunatics run rampant
> > (Hitler, Milosevic, etc...), but across the pond, we take threats to
our
> > security a little more seriously. Unless you believe "mankind" to be
> > Islamic extremists, your statement has no validity at all.
>
> Again: it's not about securing that you won't be harmed by higher
> securitylevels (in every house can be broken in), it's about creating an
> environment in which people do not feel like breaking in, because they
don't
> hate the others...
>
> And remember, I'm NOT left-wing. I just look further than your if... then
> approach to the world...
>
> If they attach, then we'll strike back...==> vicious circle!
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
Zino
"efkent" <efkent@fusenet> wrote in message
> Contrary to your statement, the Ero's want NATO to pack their bags and
move
> to some third world county to do their raping and strong arming.
> zionism=$=racism.
Baloney. Who would do their dirty work for them?
efkent
The toxins use up Americans quickly.
zionism=$=racism.
Joe User <Ak...@NOSPAMboxfrog.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2002.03.11.14...@NOSPAMboxfrog.com...
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:26:01 -0800, AV wrote:
>
>
> >> And for christ sakes, stop letting the forigners come to our shores,
> >> the last thing we need are more human monkeys.
> >
> > Sorry guy, without constant influx of foreigners US is dead. As those
> > monkeys
> >
> > get most Ph D's ...
>
> That is an immigrant lie used to justify their existance on our shores.
>
> It's well studied and documented, that we produce more PhDs than our
> economy can absorb.
>
> The problem is the educational system has become a business, a very
> inefficient business, with replication and redundancey all over the
> place.
>
> The reason people here so much about, bleh bleh bleh, more imgrants are
> needed, they get doctoral degrees., bleh bleh bleh.
>
> Well of course those who's living depends on perpetuating the inefficant
> system will say that, immigarnats pay higher tuition, and instead of one
> school that's nessiary for producing adequate amounts of engineers, you
> have 10 that are supported under the current system.
>
> It's gotten so bad that while in the past the state universities
> subsidized graduate tuition like they do with undergrad tuition, that
> many states are telling schools they will not do that anymore because the
> current inefficient system is so expensive.
Amir.M
>
> > Peter J Lusby wrote:
> >
> > > Lesley wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Well, why son't we just leave them alone and let them do their own politics
> > > > in stead of war? It's their choice how to pursue politics, why should we
> > > > interfere?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'll answer that when you can explain to me why you can't just leave America
> > > alone when it comes to the death penalty. It's America's choice how to deal
> > > with criminals, why should you interfere?
> >
> > Funny, Americans don't themselves consider it other countries' choice how to
> > treat their people, including crinimals.
>
> That doesn't address the issue at all. Europe thinks it is perfectly acceptable to
> meddle in an entirely internal American issue, and then has the unmitigated gall and
> hypocrisy to accuse America of interfering in other countries' internal affairs.
>
> Let's get one thing straight here. If you live in a perfect country, that is run
> with perfect justice by perfect politicians, and has a perfect foreign policy with
> regards to its neighbours and to the world at large, then we'd love to hear from
> you.
Then you'l be getting a call from the Swiss real soon
Eelder
Russians. Bush thinks the Palestinians are a bunch of terrorists.
Let the Israelis bring the U.S. to the table. If Bush was series about
the peace process he would have sent Colin Powell, not some retired
third string general. I would expect Powell to be more sympathetic to
the Palestinians because he has had first hand experiences with racism
and discrimination.
Zino
"Lesley" <lesley...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:a6j358$ba0$1...@reader06.wxs.nl...
>
> > In response to an ultra Left wing Euro-liberal...
>
> As a mather of fact, I'm not Left-wing. I just represent a very normal
> European voice cencerning US.
>
>
NO
> INCENTIVES for attacks. You take the wrong point as prim! It's about
making
> sure no one has an incentive to attack someone else. How can that be
> achieved? By respecting other cultures and the way they evolve over time,
> without interfering in others NATIONAL politics!
> >
took you to the cleaners. Like I said, you need to brush up on your history
and maybe take human nature into account before you come to any conclusions.
Did it ever occur to you that US foreign policy has NOTHING to do with
Hussein starving his own people while he has SIXTY palaces? That most of the
aid that he gets goes right into his army or his pocket? Would Saudi Arabia
be any better if the US packed up and left tomorrow? Is the US responsible
for the repression that goes on in Iran? Do you really believe that the US
is responsible for the way the Arabs treat each other? If so, who's fault
was it before the US existed? Where do you get the idea that the Jews
arrived in Palestine with guns blazing? I bet you know nothing of
Palestinian history pre-1948. When was the last time the Israeli government
bombed a family restaurant filled with women and children? The Muslim
extremists are not going to bother with you because your country represents
no threat to them. When they're done with the others that DO threaten them,
THEN they will be around to see you. Jesus! Have you ever even HEARD of the
Nazis? If you would get out of this ridiculous Rodney King mode ("Can't we
all just get along?"), you might be able to see that this "war" on terrorism
is really aimed at making the world safe twenty years down the road. Why
does it always seem that liberal's heads are stuffed with visions of
lollipops? Your whole mindset is simplistic and at odds with reality. But
don't feel too bad. You've got PLENTY of company.
gales
>we're not againt the US whatsoever, but we're concerned about the
dangerous politics Bush is pursuing! Why do you want to control and
influence the rest of the world. <
Dangerous to who? Europe. Sophisticated, cultured, effete Europe.
USA money, men and weapons kept your socialist asses outta many fires. Or
did you forget?
Control the rest of the world? Shit.. We have problems dealing with the
socialist democrat threat we have right here in the USA. Influence the rest
of the world? Sure, why not? Or are you Euroexcentrics afraid of freedom.
Seems so.
dudalb
anyway???
From WW2 to Kosovo, when any heavy lifting is done they come crying to Uncle
Sam, then five minutes later badmouth him.
Douglas Berry
"Lesley" <lesley...@planet.nl> warmed at our fire and told this
tale:
>Because of the arrogant and dangerous politics Bush et al are pursuing at
>the moment (Iraq-attack, nuclear weapons, Iran- and China-critique), I think
>Europe must redefine its support to the US.
At this popint, it is mostly us supporting you.
>Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on Bush
>and his politics are growing every second. It's impossible for Europe not to
>respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake of world peace.
Wow. When I was in the service, we watched as the European nations
tolerated terrorist attack after terrorist attack. Somebody hits us,
and we go after their throats. What, you expect us to lie back and
take it?
>A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
>considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership of
>the US in the UN should be evaluated.
We've given favorable signs on the peace plan, and as for the UN?
LOL! The debating club can go to blazes for all I care.
Why don't you host it in The Hauge? Then y'all can deal with hundreds
of diplomatic missions flaunting your laws in everything from parking
to sexual assaults under the cover of diplomatic immunity.
>Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't respect the
>guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
Cool, we'll quintuple the price of our wheat. You do realize that the
Netherlands imports food, right? A lot of it comes from the US.
>What do you think about the politics of the US at the moment, and what can
>be done to make sure Bush won't go into historybooks as the initiator of
>destruction of mankind)!?
If mankind is destroyed, who will write the history books?
I love this attitude from some Europeans.. they seem to have forgotten
that we came into WWII and helped to liberate them from the Nazis, and
then stood toe to toe with the Soviets for forty years until they
collapsed. I didn't see this sort of whining when the Soviet Third
Shock Army was 200km from your borders.
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Jim Asherman
Lesley wrote:
>>>Because of the arrogant and dangerous politics Bush et al are pursuing
>>>
>at
>
>>>the moment (Iraq-attack, nuclear weapons, Iran- and China-critique), I
>>>
>think
>
>>>Europe must redefine its support to the US.
>>>
>>Please do. Easy to do now that the US paid the bill to bankrupt the only
>>danger you've ever faced other than each other. 50 years of hiding
>>behind our military and now you want to drive the bus?
>>
>
>That's the problem of Americans. They only think in aggressive ways! You
>simply cannot force other countries to follow Western countries by
>implanting "democracy". There are other cultures than Western! These other
>cultures need other ways to be governed than by a president... By forcing
>Afghanistan to form a parliament the danger hasn't disappeared! Don't you
>see that? Why do Americans think their governmental structure is superior
>and what gives them the right to force other nations to apply to the same
>structure?
>
>>>Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on
>>>
>Bush
>
>>>and his politics are growing every second. It's impossible for Europe
>>>
>not to
>
>>>respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake of world peace.
>>>
>>Good, I noticed that the Netherlands hasn't had a terrorist atrocity
>>recently, wonder how your tune would change then?
>>
>
>Maybe you should ask yourself WHY the Netherlands didn't had a terrorist
>atrocity recently...?
>
>>>A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
>>>considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership
>>>
>of
>
>>>the US in the UN should be evaluated.
>>>
>>The Saudi's are now backpedaling, "Well we wouldn't actually recognize
>>the State of Israel", in other words give us the land, and nothing will
>>change. Despite this the US has urged Israel to consider the Saudi
>>proposal. For years the Europeans have sold the arabs the weapons to
>>hammer Israel, now you're interested in peace?
>>
>
>The Netherlands have always had a good relationship with Israel, just like o
>ther European nations. It's very hard to believe we sold weapons to the Arab
>(and it would make no sense!)
>
>
>>Go ahead throw the US out of the UN, NATO too. Then do your own dirty
>>work in Kosovo instead of begging the US to do it for you, have a nice
>>day while every punk with 3 tanks, a dozen AK47's and a SA6 terrorizes
>>your pathetic military forces.
>>
>
>Again, just think about aggressive solutions... Bush did a good job in
>brainwashing you (axis of evil, don't make me laugh!)
>
>>>Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't respect
>>>
>the
>
>>>guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
>>>
>>Complicated issue, you subsidized your steel industries for years at the
>>expense of the US industry, then you decide to opt for "free trade". Oh
>>well, don't buy any US banannas either.
>>
>
>US Steel producers are just not efficient enough in producing steel!!!
>That's why US-companies bought from European companies: they're more
>efficient!
>
Efficient from government investment, made possible by a continuing
investmnet of US dollars in the defense of Europe.
Plus, Us workers need decent pay because they have to pay for services
that are free in European countries.
>
>>>What do you think about the politics of the US at the moment, and what
>>>
>can
>
>>>be done to make sure Bush won't go into historybooks as the initiator of
>>>destruction of mankind)!?
>>>
>>That honor will probably go to Al Queda if this situation goes that far.
>>Interesting how the EU can't seem to remember anything that happened
>>before last week.
>>
Withh you there buddy
>>
>
>Choose between the greatest impact:
>- some planes in some buildings
>- using nucluar weapons
>
>Which one is most destructive?
>
Depends on where you are sitting doesn't it?
JimA
>
>
>
>>Flyfish
>>
>
>
Douglas Berry
>> What are you talking about? This is a bit out off track. You didn't even
>> answer what he said.
>
>By anwering his question I won't deal what it is REALLY about. It would lead
>to a yes-no discussion where both of us are right, from his own view. That's
>why I go above that in avoiding that!
Do you deny that until 1990 there were half a million soviet troops,
and an equal number of Warsaw Pact allies, massed along the border?
Check with your air force, they fly US planes that we sold them below
cost so they could aid in the defense of Europe, if it came to that.
>Since the Islamic world is militarily inferior to the US, they have to
>engage us with terrorist tactics.
>
>WRONG!!! Why would they want that? They don't war! But if they're national
>politics are constantly interfered they'll: What are they doing here? This
>is our country! What does a country, somewhere in the ocean has to do with
>that!
Why did the Crusaders go to Jerusalem? They thought it was what God
wanted them to do. These are Islamic fanatics. They truly believe
they are doing Allah's will by killing Westerners.
>
>In fact, in the past 100 years, Islamic terrorist
>> groups have had their asses kicked by the US, Russia, India, Serbia,
>Kenya,
>> and Israel.
>
>What were they doing there, then? And more important: WHY???
Trying to start Islamic revolutions, to instal Islamic governments
like the Taliban.
>> Why? Because that's what they do. Dogs bark, babies cry, and Islamic
>extremists kill non-Muslims. Its an obvious pattern that has repeated
>> itself all over Central Asia and is only spreading West...
>
>Simplistic view.
But true. Sad, but true.
>> Actually, most of us thought that before. What other solutions are there
>> for dealing with Iran, Iraq, and Al-Qaeda? You can't reason with these
>> people.
>
>Well, why son't we just leave them alone and let them do their own politics
>in stead of war? It's their choice how to pursue politics, why should we
>interfere?
Tell me, where would you be now if the US and Great Britain had taken
that view in 1939-41? A part of the Greater German Reich, hailing the
Fuhrer each day, having your kids taught that non-Aryans are animals..
not that you'd mind, having been raised the same way.
Iran supported terrorists that attacked Americans. That got us
involved.
Iraq invaded a smaller state, and Saudi Arabia *asked* us to help
defend them, then the UN decided that we could us force to evict
Saddam Hussein from Kuwait. We did so.
The al-Qaeda has, as it's goal, the destruction of freedom and the
creation of a world-wide fundamentalist Islamic state. Is that okay
with you? Do you never want to hear music again? Be forced to wear a
head-to-toe covering when in public, and not to allowed into public
without a male relative escorting you? To live in fear of the
religious police beating you if you accidentally show your *wrist*?
>>You can't compromise with them. What do you do? Just give them
>> what they want and hope they don't ask for more? Didn't World War 2 teach
>> you people anything?
>
>It teached us that an instable environment is making people think crazy.
>That's why I understand your point of view, you're scared. In stead of
>slamming down the people who stand up in such instable environments (e.g.
>Hitler, Stalin, Milosevic, Mao, Bush, Castro) you'd better start to create
>an environment that is not instable!
My God. You really didn't learn a bloody thing. Hitler, my dear
lady, wanted a war. He *needed* a war. So he made one.
Tell me, you ever hear of Chamberlain and the Munich summit of 1938?
The British Prime Minister met with Hitler in 1938, and returned home
with an agreement signed by Adolf agreeing the German territorial
needs were meet, and there would be no further expansions.
"I believe," said Chamberlain, "that this agreement means peace in our
time."
Less than a year later, Europe was in flames.
Tell me, what rational reason did the Germans have for invading your
nation?
>> Depends...Besides, who said we're planning to use nuclear weapons? I'm
>> wondering if people read a different article in the LA Times than I did.
>> Its a contingency plan for worst case scenarios. Nothing wrong with that.
>> Besides, if we were planning to throw nukes around, why would we be stupid
>> enough to let the newspapers find out about it? I realize you don't think
>> much of Americans, but give us more credit than that!
>
>What should we think of objective news in the US, when the Pentagon was (is)
>considering propaganda (in the 21st century, please wake up!). Maybe you can
>influence non-critics, but here in Europe, we've always been some more
>critic against everything that comes on our path.
We keep contingency plans for the use of all our forces. Including
our nuclear forces, if necessary. Nothing new under the sun.
MANFRED the heat seeking OBOE
>"Lesley" warmed at our fire and told this tale:
>
>>> What are you talking about? This is a bit out off track. You didn't even
>>> answer what he said.
>>
>>By anwering his question I won't deal what it is REALLY about. It would lead
>>to a yes-no discussion where both of us are right, from his own view. That's
>>why I go above that in avoiding that!
>
>Do you deny that until 1990 there were half a million soviet troops,
>and an equal number of Warsaw Pact allies, massed along the border?
>
>Check with your air force, they fly US planes that we sold them below
>cost so they could aid in the defense of Europe, if it came to that.
Irrelevant, Europe under the coming consensus-rulership of EU/(proxy-Germany)
shall mandate the revision of History.
The guilty shall be rewarded,
the innocent be punished
and the unworthy championed.
The only lesson learned is, of their betrayal only too late,
that there could be any collaboration with evil that profits anything but evil.
That the Third Way, having stolen your wallet,
now reaches around to steal your life !!!
That when the boxcars and smokestacks start rumbling again,
it will begin with Europe, amongst a generation who knew them not;
the obviousness of the truth reveals that this is their new role,
and that *you*, of all people, knew this to be true.
A free and productive people ignore this at their own peril,
because consequence is NOT inconsequential.
Stan Pierce
thing. I remember what you did to get us out of the shit. The next generation
doesn't give a shit though. They live in a world of noise and images without
meaning. Are they worth saving from themselves.
Stan Pierce.
Jim Asherman wrote in message <3C8D790A...@optonline.net>...
lvaughn
>agi...@woh.rr.com wrote:
>
>> I agree. I have felt for sometime that the US should leave the UN. The UN
>> is a bureacratic pain in the ass that is a tool of third world primates.
>> When terrorist countries like Syria have an equal voice to the US and the
>> rest of the decent world, you know something is wrong.
>
>That's what democracy is about, pal. Everyone has equal voice, unless
>proved not eligible.
>
Is it? I thought democracy, was one man one vote, and the majority
can do what ever it wants to any minority whenever it wishes.
Right a nation with 8 million living under a tyrant that uses poison
gas on his own people and has never had an honest election should have
equal rights with a country that has 300 million people that has lived
as a constitutional republic as a representative democracy for 200
years.
Such is the concept of the UN and is the reason it will never be
anything but a place to spout off.
The UN does some good humanitarian work but those who contribute
little or nothing want to do all the steering.
Euros love to spittle about the fact in recent years the US lagged on
some of its dues, because it has apposed the use of its funds for a
few limited purposes.
If you however list the total contributions in constant dollars of
donor countries that have supported the UN the US contribution since
day one is equal to the next 10 nations combined.
Euros have always been laggard on there support of Nato minus the
Norwegians and Brits, which is proportional to there size.
With the exception of my believe that WWIII would follow, I would
gladly see the UN relegated to Brussels or Paris and end to NATO.
Anyway if it is left to the mainland Europeans to ponder a decision, I
suggest their inability to conclude anything and to procrastinate will
lead nowhere.
By the time Europe comes to a decision about the UN or NATO it will
be another 50 years and a whole new world and set of conditions will
exist.
Continental Europe only functions with in any direction when it is led
by the nose and it needs a Napoleon or El Duchy or Adolf Hitler, or
Joe Stalin to do that.
On another subject, other than owning colonies for plunder such as the
Dutch East Indies and the Congo what has the Netherlands contributed
to the world in the 20th Century?
Ill also add Yugoslavia to that question, because Leslie that started
this thread says he is a Dutchman but does not even include
soc.culture.netherlans to his cross posts but does add Yugoslavia or
probably Serbia in reality.
lvaughn
wrote:
>Because of the arrogant and dangerous politics Bush et al are pursuing at
>the moment (Iraq-attack, nuclear weapons, Iran- and China-critique), I think
>Europe must redefine its support to the US.
>
>Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on Bush
Lesley if your from the Netherlands, why don't you list
soc.culture.netherlands in your cross posts?
Could it be since you include Yugoslavia meaning "Serbia" and Russia
that your really a Serb Troll?
A Serb Troll living in the US of A
>and his politics are growing every second. It's impossible for Europe not to
>respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake of world peace.
>
>A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
>considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership of
>the US in the UN should be evaluated.
>
>Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't respect the
>guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
>
>What do you think about the politics of the US at the moment, and what can
>be done to make sure Bush won't go into historybooks as the initiator of
>destruction of mankind)!?
>
>Lesley
>
>
Guy Necologist
>I agree. I have felt for sometime that the US should leave the UN. The UN
>is a bureacratic pain in the ass that is a tool of third world primates.
>When terrorist countries like Syria have an equal voice to the US and the
>rest of the decent world, you know something is wrong.
>
Preach on, brother!
The UN has become nothing more than a club for 3rd-world dictators to
use to beat up un the big bad mean ol' US; and we bankroll the
confounded thing. Good riddance, I'd say!
Sam
"Peter J Lusby" <p...@lusby.org> wrote in message news:3C8D4977...@lusby.org...
> AV wrote:
>
> > Peter J Lusby wrote:
> >
> > > Lesley wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > in stead of war? It's their choice how to pursue politics, why should we
> > > > interfere?
> > > >
> > >
> > > alone when it comes to the death penalty. It's America's choice how to deal
> > > with criminals, why should you interfere?
> >
> > Funny, Americans don't themselves consider it other countries' choice how to
> > treat their people, including crinimals.
>
> That doesn't address the issue at all. Europe thinks it is perfectly acceptable to
> meddle in an entirely internal American issue, and then has the unmitigated gall and
> hypocrisy to accuse America of interfering in other countries' internal affairs.
>
Pull the red neck in, sunshine.
"Europe" isn't "meddling" or "interfering" on this issue.
It simply doesn't agree with the death penalty.
Is "Europe" not even entitled to hold opinions
if it disapproves of something America does.
--
Samson
LIE DETECTOR™
> "Peter J Lusby" <p...@lusby.org> wrote in message news:3C8D4977...@lusby.org...
> > AV wrote:
> >
> > > Peter J Lusby wrote:
> > >
> > > > Lesley wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, why son't we just leave them alone and let them do their own politics
> > > > > in stead of war? It's their choice how to pursue politics, why should we
> > > > > interfere?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'll answer that when you can explain to me why you can't just leave America
> > > > alone when it comes to the death penalty. It's America's choice how to deal
> > > > with criminals, why should you interfere?
> > >
> > > Funny, Americans don't themselves consider it other countries' choice how to
> > > treat their people, including crinimals.
> >
> > That doesn't address the issue at all. Europe thinks it is perfectly acceptable to
> > meddle in an entirely internal American issue, and then has the unmitigated gall and
> > hypocrisy to accuse America of interfering in other countries' internal affairs.
> >
> > Let's get one thing straight here. If you live in a perfect country, that is run
> > with perfect justice by perfect politicians, and has a perfect foreign policy with
> > regards to its neighbours and to the world at large, then we'd love to hear from
> > you.
>
> Then you'l be getting a call from the Swiss real soon
To explain which accounts all that Stolen Nazi cash is in?
<snip>
Ho Hum
LD
Michael Petukhov
> Because of the arrogant and dangerous politics Bush et al are pursuing at
> the moment (Iraq-attack, nuclear weapons, Iran- and China-critique), I think
> Europe must redefine its support to the US.
>
> Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on Bush
> respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake of world peace.
>
> A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
> considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership of
> the US in the UN should be evaluated.
>
> Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't respect the
> guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
>
> What do you think about the politics of the US at the moment, and what can
> be done to make sure Bush won't go into historybooks as the initiator of
> destruction of mankind)!?
>
> Lesley
Basicaly agree. And of caurse Russian support if needed is quaratee.
I do not think that breaking relations with US is really needed. but clearly
just talks are not enough cool them down. The strong and very determined
move from Europe is what we need. How about accepting Russia, Belorussia
and Ukraina as a full members in european security systems?
Michael
member in europen
Robert the 'erbert
Amir.M <Amir@you_suck_it_down> wrote in message
news:iidj8.27$1W3...@news01.t-net.net.ve...
>
Mwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwhahahaahaahahaah!! Your stupidity never fails to amuse
me.
Robert the 'erbert
LIE DETECTOR™ <lie_de...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:210ed6e9.0203...@posting.google.com...
He probably approves after all, he's anti-Semitic and remember his alias
Alberto in Florida?
ordinary bloke
Flyfish wrote in message ...
>> the moment (Iraq-attack, nuclear weapons, Iran- and China-critique), I
think
>> Europe must redefine its support to the US.
>>
>
>danger you've ever faced other than each other. 50 years of hiding
>behind our military and now you want to drive the bus?
No we paid the bill - thats part of the reason you are so rich now.
You came in late anyway - as ever.
>
>> Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on
Bush
>> and his politics are growing every second. It's impossible for Europe not
to
>> respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake of world peace.
>
>Good, I noticed that the Netherlands hasn't had a terrorist atrocity
>recently, wonder how your tune would change then?
Ho ho! Just like you guys eh? Some of your population have been financing
terrorists for years. (IRA)
Perhaps Holland isnt targetted by terrorists because Holland
doesnt go around the world overthrowing democratically elected regimes
- like the US does.
>
>> A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
>> considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership of
>> the US in the UN should be evaluated.
>
>The Saudi's are now backpedaling, "Well we wouldn't actually recognize
>the State of Israel", in other words give us the land, and nothing will
>change. Despite this the US has urged Israel to consider the Saudi
>proposal. For years the Europeans have sold the arabs the weapons to
>hammer Israel, now you're interested in peace?
>
>Go ahead throw the US out of the UN, NATO too. Then do your own dirty
>work in Kosovo instead of begging the US to do it for you, have a nice
>day while every punk with 3 tanks, a dozen AK47's and a SA6 terrorizes
>your pathetic military forces.
>
Pretty Hollwood eh?
>> Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't respect
the
>> guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
>
>Complicated issue, you subsidized your steel industries for years at the
>expense of the US industry, then you decide to opt for "free trade". Oh
>well, don't buy any US banannas either.
Hmmm - you really have got to modernise - protectionism isnt free trade is
it?
>
>> What do you think about the politics of the US at the moment, and what
can
>> be done to make sure Bush won't go into historybooks as the initiator of
>> destruction of mankind)!?
>
>That honor will probably go to Al Queda if this situation goes that far.
>Interesting how the EU can't seem to remember anything that happened
>before last week.
and the US cant recognise a map of the world!
>
>Flyfish
Flyfish - your a nut
Flyfish
says...
> >
> > Please do. Easy to do now that the US paid the bill to bankrupt the only
> > danger you've ever faced other than each other. 50 years of hiding
> > behind our military and now you want to drive the bus?
>
> simply cannot force other countries to follow Western countries by
> implanting "democracy". There are other cultures than Western! These other
> cultures need other ways to be governed than by a president... By forcing
> Afghanistan to form a parliament the danger hasn't disappeared! Don't you
> see that? Why do Americans think their governmental structure is superior
> and what gives them the right to force other nations to apply to the same
> structure?
I don't think we have the "right" to force anything. At this point I
think we have the obligation to leave a functional government in place
of the (hopefully) former tailban losers. What happened to the Tailban
has everything to do with their choice of friends and nothing to do with
Democracy or western values. It's to mullify the EU and the rest of the
world that we're going to stay and play nation builder, something that I
maintain the US isn't all that good at.
What I find interesting is the EU insistance that they are still
relevant to this issue. You used us for 50 years and allowed your own
militaries to grow soft and ineffective while the US paid the bill for
your defense. Now you think you should be able to control us when we're
directly attacked and threatened with more attacks including WMD's? And
we're supposed to sit around and just send money/aid to poor islamics?
Address those "root" causes?
Get real.
> >
> > > Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on
> Bush
> > > and his politics are growing every second. It's impossible for Europe
> not to
> > > respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake of world peace.
> >
> > Good, I noticed that the Netherlands hasn't had a terrorist atrocity
> > recently, wonder how your tune would change then?
>
> Maybe you should ask yourself WHY the Netherlands didn't had a terrorist
> atrocity recently...?
Because no one wants to blow up all those "coffee houses" that sell
hasish? Because you're lucky? Because the Netherlands isn't a strategic
stop on Islam's road to world dominance? Most likely the latter.
> > The Saudi's are now backpedaling, "Well we wouldn't actually recognize
> > the State of Israel", in other words give us the land, and nothing will
> > change. Despite this the US has urged Israel to consider the Saudi
> > proposal. For years the Europeans have sold the arabs the weapons to
> > hammer Israel, now you're interested in peace?
>
> The Netherlands have always had a good relationship with Israel, just like o
> ther European nations. It's very hard to believe we sold weapons to the Arab
> (and it would make no sense!)
Perhaps not the Netherlands, the French, Germans and Swedes absolutely,
but to be fair to all of them, they sell to anyone with hard currency
and the devil take the details.
Nice dodge too, nothing like a subtle (or not so subtle) change of
subject.
> >
> > Go ahead throw the US out of the UN, NATO too. Then do your own dirty
> > work in Kosovo instead of begging the US to do it for you, have a nice
> > day while every punk with 3 tanks, a dozen AK47's and a SA6 terrorizes
> > your pathetic military forces.
>
> Again, just think about aggressive solutions... Bush did a good job in
> brainwashing you (axis of evil, don't make me laugh!)
The US role in Kosovo was what the EU/Nato wanted. We wanted to stay out
of it, but I suppose you don't remember that part. We should have too
and let you lot deal with it.
> > > Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't respect
> the
> > > guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
> >
> > Complicated issue, you subsidized your steel industries for years at the
> > expense of the US industry, then you decide to opt for "free trade". Oh
> > well, don't buy any US banannas either.
>
> US Steel producers are just not efficient enough in producing steel!!!
> That's why US-companies bought from European companies: they're more
> efficient!
Who's steel industry was built by subsidies? Not the US, yeah we can't
compete with your completed overhauled industry, done during your
protectionist days with government subsidies.
Steel is a critical infastructure industry. We'll see how the WTC
handles the complaints. In the meantime the US has to protect essential
infastructure.
> Choose between the greatest impact:
> - some planes in some buildings
> - using nucluar weapons
>
> Which one is most destructive?
>
Straight to nukes? I hadn't noticed the US using any nukes yet, have
you? Typical hyperbole, make up some awesome circumstance and then use
it to downplay another.
If you're scared tough, the US got a wake up call on 9/11. That call
tells us that we can no longer attempt to use limp wristed
"multilateral" approaches to matters as serious as national survival.
Clinton tried it for 8 years and all we got is a ruined aspirin factory
and some tents with holes in them. It doesn't work. I realize that the
EU doesn't see this in the same light as the US. That's because Al Queda
didn't declare war on you. That's fine. You say you aren't at war, we
are. Should we lose, you will be.
Flyfish
Flyfish
> No we paid the bill - thats part of the reason you are so rich now.
> You came in late anyway - as ever.
I wasn't referring to WW2, yeah we were late to that party, but you guys
set yourselves up for that one at the end of WW1, the US was then what
you wish we were now, more isolationist. Can't have it both ways? Ok
rewrite history your way then.
On the other hand you hid behind the US Nato commitment and kowtowed to
your socialist leanings while we bankrupted the USSR.
> >
> >> Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on
> Bush
> >> and his politics are growing every second. It's impossible for Europe not
> to
> >> respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake of world peace.
> >
> >Good, I noticed that the Netherlands hasn't had a terrorist atrocity
> >recently, wonder how your tune would change then?
>
> Ho ho! Just like you guys eh? Some of your population have been financing
> terrorists for years. (IRA)
Perhaps the UK should pull it's army of occupation out of Northern
Ireland? Oh yes I almost forgot it's to protect those descended from the
UK's former army of occupation and civilian carpet baggers with their
foreign religion. Imperialism sucks doesn't it?
Spare me ok, the US doesn't support the IRA, just an tiny portion of an
ethnic Irish group.
> Perhaps Holland isnt targetted by terrorists because Holland
> doesnt go around the world overthrowing democratically elected regimes
> - like the US does.
Yeah Imperialist legacies suck don't they. Too bad the British Empire
carved up the middle east, we wouldn't have many of the problems that
the "Late to the party" US now has to clean up. Your mess, not ours.
> Hmmm - you really have got to modernise - protectionism isnt free trade is
> it?
Can't argue with this, and I don't say I totally approve. On the other
hand since we can't continue to count on you quirky tots in the EU, I
guess we'd better make sure we have a steel industry for when you put
sanctions on the US.
> >That honor will probably go to Al Queda if this situation goes that far.
> >Interesting how the EU can't seem to remember anything that happened
> >before last week.
>
> and the US cant recognise a map of the world!
Very funny indeed, too bad for you whiners it's not true. I think if you
look out on any ocean you'll find the US Navy there staring you back in
the face. Get used to it.
>
> >
> >Flyfish
>
> Flyfish - your a nut
Being called a nut by a whiney European really hurts me! NOT
Flyfish
anonymous
>
>"efkent" <efkent@fusenet> wrote in message
>news:u8ql51c...@corp.supernews.com...
>> Contrary to your statement, the Ero's want NATO to pack their bags and move
>> to some third world county to do their raping and strong arming.
>
The Euros think no dirty work needs doing.
Douglas Berry
petu...@bpc.spbstu.ru (Michael Petukhov) warmed at our fire and told
this tale:
>Basicaly agree. And of caurse Russian support if needed is quaratee.
>I do not think that breaking relations with US is really needed. but clearly
>just talks are not enough cool them down. The strong and very determined
>move from Europe is what we need. How about accepting Russia, Belorussia
>and Ukraina as a full members in european security systems?
Fine *you* spend buillions trying to keep their failing economy
afloat, and you send megatons of wheat to feed their population.
Douglas Berry
"ordinary bloke" <ob...@excite.com> warmed at our fire and told this
tale:
>Flyfish wrote in message ...
>>Please do. Easy to do now that the US paid the bill to bankrupt the only
>>danger you've ever faced other than each other. 50 years of hiding
>>behind our military and now you want to drive the bus?
>
>No we paid the bill - thats part of the reason you are so rich now.
>You came in late anyway - as ever.
Do me a favor, and look up the "Marshall Plan." After y'all had yet
another orgy of killing, we paid to rebuild your cities and feed you.
We hadn't been attacked. And as for our coming in late, you might want
to look up the Lend-Lease Act.
>>Good, I noticed that the Netherlands hasn't had a terrorist atrocity
>>recently, wonder how your tune would change then?
>
>Ho ho! Just like you guys eh? Some of your population have been financing
>terrorists for years. (IRA)
And Great britain never did what was necessary to take out the IRA
once and for all. We are doing that to the al-Qaeda.
>Perhaps Holland isnt targetted by terrorists because Holland
>doesnt go around the world overthrowing democratically elected regimes
>- like the US does.
LOL! Do you really think al-Qaeda gives a fuck about democracy? How
many elections were held under the Taliban?
Anyway, the last time Holland was a world power, they seemed to have
no qualms about imposing their will on people.
>>Go ahead throw the US out of the UN, NATO too. Then do your own dirty
>>work in Kosovo instead of begging the US to do it for you, have a nice
>>day while every punk with 3 tanks, a dozen AK47's and a SA6 terrorizes
>>your pathetic military forces.
>
>Pretty Hollwood eh?
Pretty much the real situation in the big, nasty world. Do me another
favor, and go ask someone who remembers WWII what it was like under
the Nazis. And then ask him what nation liberating him personally.
>>That honor will probably go to Al Queda if this situation goes that far.
>>Interesting how the EU can't seem to remember anything that happened
>>before last week.
>
>and the US cant recognise a map of the world!
Some people can't.. of course, I've met Europeans here in San
Francisco who can't grasp the size of the United States. (They talk
about going to Las Vegas "for the afternoon.. Las Vegas is 700 miles
from here.)
>>Flyfish
>
>Flyfish - your a nut
The proper English is "you're."
Robert the 'erbert
Douglas Berry <grid...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:tl8s8u0bshlgn6huu...@4ax.com...
<snip>
> >Ho ho! Just like you guys eh? Some of your population have been financing
> >terrorists for years. (IRA)
>
> And Great britain never did what was necessary to take out the IRA
> once and for all. We are doing that to the al-Qaeda.
And exactly what is it that 'Great britain' could have done to 'take out the
IRA
once and for all' ?
Peter J Lusby
Sam wrote:.
> "Europe" isn't "meddling" or "interfering" on this issue.
> It simply doesn't agree with the death penalty.
>
Your stupidity is exceeded only by your ignorance. I'd suggest that you put away your
comics and toys, and start watching some current affairs and news programmes on the TV,
and reading some newspapers. Then you'd know what is really going on in the real world,
instead of living your own private fantasies in your own fairytale world.
Sam
"Peter J Lusby" <p...@lusby.org> wrote in message news:3C8E34E0...@lusby.org...
>
>
> Your stupidity is exceeded only by your ignorance. I'd suggest that you put away your
> comics and toys, and start watching some current affairs and news programmes on the TV,
> and reading some newspapers. Then you'd know what is really going on in the real
world,
> instead of living your own private fantasies in your own fairytale world.
>
I suppose it is always easier to have a rant
than present a coherent argument.
--
Samson
Zino
"anonymous" <an...@somewhere.dot.com> wrote in message
news:Gsv66...@leeds.ac.uk...
And, unfortunately, American liberals think that there is no such thing.
All is Mr. Roger's neighborhood.
AV
> AV wrote:
>
> > Peter J Lusby wrote:
> >
> > > Lesley wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Well, why son't we just leave them alone and let them do their own politics
> > > > in stead of war? It's their choice how to pursue politics, why should we
> > > > interfere?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'll answer that when you can explain to me why you can't just leave America
> > > alone when it comes to the death penalty. It's America's choice how to deal
> > > with criminals, why should you interfere?
> >
> > Funny, Americans don't themselves consider it other countries' choice how to
> > treat their people, including crinimals.
>
> That doesn't address the issue at all. Europe thinks it is perfectly acceptable to
> meddle in an entirely internal American issue, and then has the unmitigated gall and
> hypocrisy to accuse America of interfering in other countries' internal affairs.
Meddling it's when you force someone to do somethiung. Using high altitiude
laser guided bombs for example ...
> Let's get one thing straight here. If you live in a perfect country, that is run
> with perfect justice by perfect politicians,
Do you ?
> and has a perfect foreign policy with
> regards to its neighbours and to the world at large,
What country are you talking about ?
> then we'd love to hear from
> you. If you don't, then go fix your own place before you presume to tell anyone
> else how to mind their own business.
Does the fact that many things are not perfcet in my country deprives me of the right to
discuss and critisise things in othe countries ?
> First cast the beam from thine own eye.
Peter J Lusby
>
> Does the fact that many things are not perfcet in my country deprives me of the right to
> discuss and critisise things in othe countries ?
It doesn't deprive you of the right. But it does suggest that your energies and criticisms
would be better spent in cleaning up your own mess before you make a start on someone
else's. And it should be abundantly clear that your message is not going to be well
received if you don't have your own house in order. Let me put it this way. If, for
example, you lived next door to someone with a filthy house, an unkempt front garden with
litter all over the place, two junk cars parked on the street outside, and an unrestrained
dog barking at anything and everything at all hours of the day and night, how receptive
would you be to him complaining that you need to wallpaper your living room?
Mir Topolski
political party. Programme? Just "Yanks go home, Cold War is over!"
"Lesley" <lesley...@planet.nl> wrote:
> Because of the arrogant and dangerous politics Bush et al are pursuing at
> the moment (Iraq-attack, nuclear weapons, Iran- and China-critique), I
think
> Europe must redefine its support to the US.
>
> Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on
Bush
> and his politics are growing every second. It's impossible for Europe not
to
> respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake of world peace.
>
> A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
> considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership of
> the US in the UN should be evaluated.
>
> Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't respect
the
> guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
>
> What do you think about the politics of the US at the moment, and what can
> be done to make sure Bush won't go into historybooks as the initiator of
> destruction of mankind)!?
>
> Lesley
Robert the 'erbert
Mir Topolski <32004782...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:a6ka91$msn$02$1...@news.t-online.com...
> Hey, brother, we here in EU must create EAAP - a new european
anti-american
> political party. Programme? Just "Yanks go home, Cold War is over!"
And leave it to the French and Germans to fuck up, No thanks! The Brits.
will never go for it and without the Brits, there is no credibility. ;)
AV
> AV wrote:
>
> >
> > Does the fact that many things are not perfcet in my country deprives me of the right to
> > discuss and critisise things in othe countries ?
>
> It doesn't deprive you of the right. But it does suggest that your energies and criticisms
> would be better spent in cleaning up your own mess before you make a start on someone
> else's. And it should be abundantly clear that your message is not going to be well
> received if you don't have your own house in order. Let me put it this way. If, for
> example, you lived next door to someone with a filthy house, an unkempt front garden with
> litter all over the place, two junk cars parked on the street outside, and an unrestrained
> dog barking at anything and everything at all hours of the day and night, how receptive
> would you be to him complaining that you need to wallpaper your living room?
Your message is clear. Do you live in a _perfect_ place, does your country behave perfectly ?
Sorry, lots of people all over the world think it doesn't. Then your opinion should aslo be
ignored.
Peter J Lusby
AV wrote:
> Peter J Lusby wrote:
>
> > AV wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Does the fact that many things are not perfcet in my country deprives me of the right to
> > > discuss and critisise things in othe countries ?
> >
> > It doesn't deprive you of the right. But it does suggest that your energies and criticisms
> > would be better spent in cleaning up your own mess before you make a start on someone
> > else's. And it should be abundantly clear that your message is not going to be well
> > received if you don't have your own house in order. Let me put it this way. If, for
> > example, you lived next door to someone with a filthy house, an unkempt front garden with
> > litter all over the place, two junk cars parked on the street outside, and an unrestrained
> > dog barking at anything and everything at all hours of the day and night, how receptive
> > would you be to him complaining that you need to wallpaper your living room?
>
> Your message is clear. Do you live in a _perfect_ place, does your country behave perfectly ?
> Sorry, lots of people all over the world think it doesn't. Then your opinion should aslo be
> ignored.
Are you deliberately trying to be dense, or is it your natural mode of behaviour? I have the
right to criticize my country, and to try to fix it. On the other hand, you are not qualified to
have any opinion on how to fix my country until you have shown that you can make at least your
own, which is a fraction the size of mine, perfect. Once you've achieved that, in whatever
corner of the globe you may call home, then you have the necessary qualifications to attack other
peoples' problems. As long as you haven't built at least one perfect society, you are in no
position to tell anyone else what imperfections exist in theirs.
End of conversation.
tkdowning
> > We vehemently agree one one thing, the US has no business(well that's the
> > only reason why our monkey leaders keep them) in the UN, and the UN has
> > no business in NYC.
> >
> > Everybody can deal with their own damm problems
>
> Why is US so heavily involved in foreign politics,
Next time there's a world war, maybe wont get "heavily involved in
foreign politics". There's nothing, and I mean _NOTHING_ that would
bring me greater joy than to watch you little wine-drinking, cheese
eating turds living under Sharia law. And if history is any indicator,
you will do nothing to defend yourselves.
> forcing other countries
> to apply to the Western model?
>
We have forced nobody to live under the Western model.
> , and those who can't deal
> > with their issues can get pushed out of existance in accordance to
> > evolution.
>
> > We are not the world, never we the world,don't want to be the world
>
> AGAIN: why so much interference then?
>
We dont want to take over the world, we want to make sure that no one
else takes over the world. Since there are many people who want to
try, we have to become involved. No one else will.
> > , it's distinctly UNAmerican, for most of our existance, we were very
> > isolationist, and it's about time our leaders brought us back to our
> > roots.
> >
> > And for christ sakes, stop letting the forigners come to our shores, the
> > last thing we need are more human monkeys.
>
> Do not forget the Indians! Who where the first foreigners and who where the
> first real habitants (please read: GUNS, GERMS & STEEL [a short history for
> everybondy of the last 13,000 years] by Jarred Diamond!)? Right, the
> European (now Americans).
There's a story of "indians" for all modern nations. Who did your
ancestors kill to get their land?
MDS
According to Saturday Night Live, the axis of evil now has four nations
in it: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and France.
--
MDS (Mister Doctor Sir)
-----------------------
Wouldn't it be great if you could see the 3 Stooges again?
Well now you can. 24 hours a day and 7 days a week.
You must have access to usenet and a good newsreader.
The 3 Stooges (John, Steve and Burns). Only at RADW.
Douglas Berry
"Mir Topolski" <32004782...@t-online.de> warmed at our fire and
told this tale:
>Hey, brother, we here in EU must create EAAP - a new european anti-american
>political party. Programme? Just "Yanks go home, Cold War is over!"
Take a close look, the vast majority of us have.
When I graduated from the infantry school in 1984, 80% of us were sent
to Germany for our first tour of duty. Recently, a buddy of mine who
is now a Drill Sergeant there (in the same building, *grin*) told me
that the last class the graduated sent 2 people out of 130 to Germany.
Sam
"Peter J Lusby" <p...@lusby.org> wrote in message news:3C8E92ED...@lusby.org...
>
> Are you deliberately trying to be dense, or is it your natural mode of behaviour? I
have the
> right to criticize my country, and to try to fix it. On the other hand, you are not
qualified to
> have any opinion on how to fix my country until you have shown that you can make at
least your
> own, which is a fraction the size of mine, perfect.
I can't recall ever reading anything so daft.
--
Samson
Osama-Bin KENOBI
>considering the Palestina-Israel conflict.
The solution is simple:
1. Stop using oil.
2. Turn Israel into a UN amusement park (free, no charge).
3. Burn down all the Churches, Synagogues and Mosques.
Osama-Bin KENOBI
>When was the last time Europe managed to handle a major crisis on it's own
>anyway???
>From WW2 to Kosovo, when any heavy lifting is done they come crying to Uncle
>Sam, then five minutes later badmouth him.
>
Uncle Samael.
Osama-Bin KENOBI
>foreign politics". There's nothing, and I mean _NOTHING_ that would
>bring me greater joy than to watch you little wine-drinking, cheese
>eating turds living under Sharia law. And if history is any indicator,
>you will do nothing to defend yourselves.
No one is asking the US to do any of this stuff.
Osama-Bin KENOBI
doing, rather than cheerleading for Bush's warmongering BULLSHIT!
http://www.fortune.com/indext.jhtml?channel=print_article.jhtml&doc_id=206684
The Big Guys Work For the Carlyle Group
What exactly does it do? To find out, we peeked down the rabbit hole.
FORTUNE
Monday, March 18, 2002
By Melanie Warner
The firm also has about a dozen investors from Saudi Arabia,
including, until recently, the bin Laden family. Yes, those bin
Ladens. Is it any wonder that Internet sites with names like
paranoiamagazine.com are rife with stories about Carlyle's shadowy,
corrupt global network? And it's not just wackos. "Be careful," a tech
entrepreneur in Silicon Valley wrote in an e-mail when he learned I
was doing a story on Carlyle. "The rabbit hole runs really deep on
this one.''
Unlike other private-equity groups, Carlyle concentrates on companies
funded by the government, such as defense contractors, or those
affected by government regulation, such as telecommunications firms,
and then hires people with relevant government experience. As the
company once put it in a brochure, "We invest in niche opportunities
created in industries heavily affected by changes in governmental
policies." Doing so, of course, raises the ultimate rabbit-hole
question: Is Carlyle's approach just a smart twist on good old
business networking or a step over the line into an ethical twilight
zone in which the public trust is broken?
anonymous
>Next time there's a world war, maybe wont get "heavily involved in
>foreign politics". There's nothing, and I mean _NOTHING_ that would
>bring me greater joy than to watch you little wine-drinking, cheese
>eating turds living under Sharia law. And if history is any indicator,
>you will do nothing to defend yourselves.
>
There's only one country in the world that can threaten Europe, and that's the
USA.
Don Ocean
anonymous wrote:
Well...Please don't invite us to your next one! I don't recall any wars bigger then
WWI and WWII? Even the Mongels at Kosavo was penny-ante in comparison.
Nothing the Roman empire, Hannibal, Alexander the Great did even vaguely equate
with those 2 wars. And no we aren't interested in a war with Europe. So Please
stop all the ignorant intrigues already! And do something about cleaning up
your own messes over there. Our taxpayers a getting tired of your free lunch.
Don Ocean
Sioux Falls, SD
E. Barry Bruyea
<32004782...@t-online.de> wrote:
>Hey, brother, we here in EU must create EAAP - a new european anti-american
>political party. Programme? Just "Yanks go home, Cold War is over!"
Yes, but just until the next time Europe indulges itself in an
internecine slaughter, as has become its habit over the centuries.
And then it'll be, "Please, Yanks, come bail us out again and when the
war's over, pump billions into Europe so we can rebuild...again."
Europe 'defines' self-righteous hypocrisy.
E. Barry Bruyea
>
>
>Sam wrote:.
>
>> "Europe" isn't "meddling" or "interfering" on this issue.
>> It simply doesn't agree with the death penalty.
>>
>
>Your stupidity is exceeded only by your ignorance. I'd suggest that you put away your
>comics and toys, and start watching some current affairs and news programmes on the TV,
>and reading some newspapers. Then you'd know what is really going on in the real world,
>instead of living your own private fantasies in your own fairytale world.
>
>Warm regards
>Peter
Europe doesn't believe in a singular death penalty. They just engage
in internecine slaughter every 20 or 30 years and count the dead in
the millions. It's so much more democratic that way. What
hypocrites.
E. Barry Bruyea
wrote:
>"Lesley" <lesley...@planet.nl> wrote in message news:<a6j4bn$c8j$1...@reader06.wxs.nl>...
>> > We vehemently agree one one thing, the US has no business(well that's the
>> > only reason why our monkey leaders keep them) in the UN, and the UN has
>> > no business in NYC.
>> >
>> > Everybody can deal with their own damm problems
>>
>> Why is US so heavily involved in foreign politics,
>
>
>Next time there's a world war, maybe wont get "heavily involved in
>foreign politics". There's nothing, and I mean _NOTHING_ that would
>bring me greater joy than to watch you little wine-drinking, cheese
>eating turds living under Sharia law. And if history is any indicator,
>you will do nothing to defend yourselves.
The anti-American whining coming out of Europe in recent months is
almost laughable, considering Europe's reluctance over the past three
decades to do anything about terrorists; as a matter of fact, just the
opposite. France and Germany were (and may still be) virtual havens
for terrorists, many living openly and well within the grasp of
police, but being ignored because their gutless governments were (and
are) terrified of pissing off the Arabs. Their present public
criticism is just one more way of sucking ups to the Arab countries.
anonymous
>
>
>anonymous wrote:
>
>> In article <77353968.02031...@posting.google.com>,
> tk_dow...@hotmail.com (tkdowning) wrote:
>> >Next time there's a world war, maybe wont get "heavily involved in
>> >foreign politics". There's nothing, and I mean _NOTHING_ that would
>> >bring me greater joy than to watch you little wine-drinking, cheese
>> >eating turds living under Sharia law. And if history is any indicator,
>> >you will do nothing to defend yourselves.
>> >
>> History shows that all the biggest and best wars are fought by Europeans.
>> There's only one country in the world that can threaten Europe, and that's
> the
>> USA.
>
>Well...Please don't invite us to your next one! I don't recall any wars bigger
> then
>WWI and WWII?
That's right, nothing bigger than those two. And us Europeans can proudly
claim responsibility for them, we started them, and we did most of the
fighting in them.
>Nothing the Roman empire, Hannibal, Alexander the Great did even vaguely equate
>with those 2 wars. And no we aren't interested in a war with Europe.
Good. So we don't need a big armies after all then.
>And do something about cleaning up
>your own messes over there. Our taxpayers a getting tired of your free lunch.
There are no messes to clean up. So you too can disband your big armies and
all the taxpayers everywhere are happy.
E. Barry Bruyea
Europe never does until it's facing down the barrel of a gun or
looking up at bomb-bay doors. And then, wait for the whining. Even
when France out-gunned, out-manned, out-tanked and out-planed the
Nazis, they lay down and allowed Hitler to walk over France like their
military wasn't even there.
E. Barry Bruyea
wrote:
Biggest & Best? Best being defined as "Best At Being Beaten" I
assume.
Douglas Berry
an...@somewhere.dot.com (anonymous) warmed at our fire and told this
tale:
>That's right, nothing bigger than those two. And us Europeans can proudly
>claim responsibility for them, we started them, and we did most of the
>fighting in them.
Well, if you count the Germans, yes...
But asd for the rest, do me a favor, and figure the percentages of
American troops in Sicily, Itatly, doing the heavy bombing of Europe,
and in D-Day.
Who led the breakout? An American general.
Just so we stick to facts, Berlin wasn't taken by European troops, but
by Soviet troops from siberia.
Then let's discuss the Pacific War.
Douglas Berry
snow...@inhell.com (E. Barry Bruyea) warmed at our fire and told
this tale:
>Yes, but just until the next time Europe indulges itself in an
>internecine slaughter, as has become its habit over the centuries.
>And then it'll be, "Please, Yanks, come bail us out again and when the
>war's over, pump billions into Europe so we can rebuild...again."
>Europe 'defines' self-righteous hypocrisy.
This time, will make colonial status a requirement to receive aid.
Sam
"E. Barry Bruyea" <snow...@inhell.com> wrote in message
news:3c8f70c2...@news.gate-way.net...
>
>
> Europe doesn't believe in a singular death penalty. They just engage
> in internecine slaughter every 20 or 30 years and count the dead in
> the millions. It's so much more democratic that way. What
> hypocrites.
In what way are these two issues remotely connected ?
--
Samson
Peter J Lusby
am...@mortal.com wrote:
> Well, that's not entirely fair, Barry; first they were defeated by
> the left, who burrowed into their society like a worm in an apple.
> The left are not French, or any other nationality, they are
> deracinated extra-nationals, who owe allegiance only to their alien
> and discredited philosophy.
>
> In Bill Gunston's FIGHTER we are told that communist sabotage ensured
> that every plane that came off French assembly lines was defective in
> some way, due to communist sabotage (Nazi-Soviet Pact). In addition,
> the overall programme of aircraft manufacture was mismanaged by the
> socialist government, that's why French fighter aircraft looked and
> flew like flying wheelchairs.
Max! This looks suspiciously like useful informative material. We may have
to drum you out of the C***l, or at the very least unfrock you again. I'm
going to have to appeal to the SCBBSSL to adjudicate on this one.
Warm regards
Peter J Lusby
am...@mortal.com wrote:
> In soc.culture.british Douglas Berry <grid...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:34:03 GMT, a wanderer, known to us only as
> > an...@somewhere.dot.com (anonymous) warmed at our fire and told this
> > tale:
>
> >>That's right, nothing bigger than those two. And us Europeans can proudly
> >>claim responsibility for them, we started them, and we did most of the
> >>fighting in them.
>
> > Well, if you count the Germans, yes...
>
> > But asd for the rest, do me a favor, and figure the percentages of
> > American troops in Sicily, Itatly,
>
> Doug, you are not being fair, IMO.
>
> The British sank most of the U-Boats.
>
> We also lost most Atlantic shipping, and it wasn't because a U-Boat
> couldn't sink an American ship; it was because we ran most of the
> traffic.
>
> "It must be remembered that our munitions effort from the beginning
> of Lend-Lease in January 1941 was increased by over one fifth through
> the generosity of the US. With the materials and weapons which they gave
> us were were actually able to wage war as if we were a nation of 58
> millions
> instead of 48. In shipping also the marvellous production of Liberty
> Ships enabled the flow of supplies to be maintained across the Atlantic.
> On the other hand, the analysis of shipping losses suffered by all nations
> through the war should be borne in mind.
>
> Nationality Losses / tons %
>
> British 11,357,000 54
> US 3,334,000 16
> Other 6,503,000 30
>
> > doing the heavy bombing of Europe,
>
> The RAF.
>
> Churchill again:
>
> "In the air superb efforts were made by the
> US to come into action, especially in their daylight Fortress bombers,
> on the greatest scale from the earliest moment after Pearl Harbour, and
> their power was used against Japan and from the British Isles against
> Germany. However, when we reached Casablanca in January 1943 the
> British discharge of bombs of Germany had in the aggregate exceeded
> by eight tons to one those cast from American machines by day or night,
> and it was only in the spring of 1944 that the preponderance of
> discharge was achieved by the US. Here, as in the armies and on the
> sea, we ran the full course from the beginning, and it was not until
> 1944 that we were overtaken and surpassed by the tremendous war effort
> of the US."
>
> 8:1 in our favour. That's quite a substantial margin, isn't it?
>
> > and in D-Day.
>
> Until July 1944 Britain and her Empire had a
> substantially larger number of divisions in contact with the enemy
> than the US, not only in the European theatre, but all over the world.
> [see page 232, "Memoirs of the Second World War, an abridgement of the
> six volumes of The Second World War" by Winston S. Churchill, ISBN 0-
> 395-59968-7]. That left the final ten months in which the US made the
> predominant contribution. Churchill writes: "Till the arrival in
> Normandy in the autumn of 1944 of the great mass of the American Army,
> we always had the right to speak at least as an equal partner and
> usually as the predominant partner in every theatre of war except the
> Pacific and Australasian; and this remains also true, up to the time
> mentioned, of the aggregation of all divisions in all theatres for
> any given month."
>
> > Who led the breakout? An American general.
>
> Who sank the Kriegsmarine?
>
> > Just so we stick to facts, Berlin wasn't taken by European troops, but
> > by Soviet troops from siberia.
>
> That's right; that's why it was a genocidal bloodbath, because the Soviet
> troops were as bad as the Nazis. Churchill must have rushed all that
> aid to the USSR because he thought they'd fold like a deck chair under
> a steam roller. I don't mean Lend-Lease; I mean the British aid to
> the USSR. British squadrons flew in defence of Moscow, but the USSR
> was a Nazi Ally and provided the Nazis with all they desired until
> Barbarossa.
>
> > Then let's discuss the Pacific War.
>
> Sure. Did you know the theoretical foundations of the A Bomb were
> laid in the UK? The British provided the Allies with intelligence
> through ULTRA. The British also brought the work up procedure for
> penicillin to the US, so we could use the big American fermenters.
> The first US jets had British engines in them. Mind you, the first
> Soviet jets had British engines in them too. The main Soviet
> battle tank in 1941 was a stolen British design.
>
> Churchill again:
> "This is all set
> down, not to claim undue credit, but to establish on a footing capable
> of commanding fair-minded respect the intense output in every form of
> war activity of the people of this small island, upon whom in the
> crisis of the world's history the brunt fell."
>
> Regards,
>
> Max
Uh-oh! You're in deep trouble now Max- this is replete not merely with
information, but citations with sources (including ISBNs, no less!). We'll
have to see what the SCBBSSL has to day about this.
Peter J Lusby
> Does 'Mir Topolski' sound like a European name to you, Barry?
It does to me. (Hint- On which continent is Russia located?)
Antonin Artaud
E. Barry Bruyea
In the self-righteous, anti-American crap being poured out of Europe.
>
>
>--
>Samson
>
>
E. Barry Bruyea
wrote:
>That's right, nothing bigger than those two. And us Europeans can proudly
>claim responsibility for them, we started them, and we did most of the
>fighting in them.
You mean most of the surrendering. What bloody history books have you
been reading? Other than the Eastern Front, there is not one battle
won in WWII by solely European Armies. You were propped up on every
front, wet or dry or in the air. Without the Commonwealth Countries
early in the war, the U.K would have been in deep shit and without the
Commonwealth & Americans, Europe would either be flying the Swastika
or the Hammer and Sycle.
E. Barry Bruyea
>Does 'Mir Topolski' sound like a European name to you, Barry?
What's your point? The Battle of Kursk was in the Soviet Union; the
Soviets helped Hitler start WWII. Now we've got that straightened
out, I ask again, what's your point?
E. Barry Bruyea
>am...@mortal.com wrote:
>
>> Does 'Mir Topolski' sound like a European name to you, Barry?
>
>It does to me. (Hint- On which continent is Russia located?)
>
>Warm regards
>Peter
When in doubt, ask a question that is a non-sequitur. Replaces
intelligent debate.
Dmitry Fedotov
> Because of the arrogant and dangerous politics Bush et al are pursuing at
> the moment (Iraq-attack, nuclear weapons, Iran- and China-critique), I
think
> Europe must redefine its support to the US.
>
> Here in Europe (I'm from the Netherlands), the critics and antipathy on
Bush
> and his politics are growing every second. It's impossible for Europe not
to
> respond to this, because for its own sake and the sake of world peace.
>
I don't think Europe will go against Bush's initiatives.
> A first step in this would be to support the Saudi Arabian peaceplan
> considering the Palestina-Israel conflict. Furthermore, the membership of
> the US in the UN should be evaluated.
>
> Also freetrading must be evaluated. Clear is that the US doesn't respect
the
> guidelines of the WTO (see the import duties on steel).
>
> What do you think about the politics of the US at the moment, and what can
> be done to make sure Bush won't go into historybooks as the initiator of
> destruction of mankind)!?
>
> Lesley
He seems to be quite determined and has all the power to continue with his
plans. Nothing will stop him. Hopefully he won't go too far.
Kevin
>
> Then let's discuss the Pacific War.
Yeah - explain how you lost the Philippines.