Hobbits nobler than Elves?
Glenn Holliday
In "The Scouring of the Shire" Frodo says "No hobbit has ever
killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it is not to
begin now." When _The Silmarillion_ was published, some part
of my mind made a link between the hobbit experience and
the Elvish experience of kinslaying.
I expect Tolkien drew that parallel intentionally, and
now I'm thinking about what he intended to point out.
Here's my first cut:
The Sons of Feanor made their oath and killed their kin because
they were caught up in their strength. They assumed they,
as Elven nobility, were able to contest Melkor, and therefore
they did so. The first Kinslaying (and I suppose the later ones
as well) happened because the Feanorans decided their importance
overwhelmed the concerns of anybody else. This followed partly
from the grandness of the Firstborn, the enhancing of their
native qualities that came from dwelling in Valinor, and
was then inflated by self-importance and anger at the Valar.
The hobbits, on the other hand, were built of pretty much
the inverse or complementary qualities. Their culture
encouraged them to stay at home, and they had no thought of
influence beyond their own borders. The kind of self-importance
that might lead to a murder of passion in the Shire was
tempered by the smallness of scale of everything in that
place.
We have examples throughout Tolkien's writings of why
it is usually good to be great and powerful. We don't have
examples, but I think most of us would agree that it is
often bad to be small and limited (there was a recent thread
about whether the Rangers patronized the Shire by keeping
them a simple people). But I think here we have a comment
by Tolkien on why it is sometimes dangerous to be great,
and a virtue to be simple.
As a result, hobbits can boast they have never had a
Kinslaying, and elves can only admit silently that
they can't make that boast. Of course, part of the
hobbit character is they are unlikely to think of
making that boast. Especially to an elf.
(Just to be complete, perhaps Tolkien had Frodo qualify
his comment with "in the Shire" to account Smeagol as
part of hobbit history and exclude his deeds from the
boast.)
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
PeterH
> But I think here we have a comment
>by Tolkien....it is sometimes dangerous to be great,
>and a virtue to be simple.
>
>
>
A pleasingly stated thesis which is pleasant to behold.
Thank you.
Yours in the north Maien woods,
Pete Hilton aka The Ent
--
There's such a thing as too much point
on a pencil.
H. Allen Smith
T.M. Sommers
>
> (Just to be complete, perhaps Tolkien had Frodo qualify
> his comment with "in the Shire" to account Smeagol as
> part of hobbit history and exclude his deeds from the
> boast.)
And perhaps there were plenty of other hobbitcides in pre-Shire days
that simply aren't recorded in Tolkien's sources.
Rudy
ever happen to Middle Earth. It's funny how TH and LOTR kind of
suggest they are noble, but the SILM really opens your eyes to their
evils. Illuvatar should have recorgnized the superiority of Aule's
work and aborted his so-called "first-born."
Pradera
Or that hobbits used to settle their matters in Buckland, or other areas
outside Shire.
'Let's go outside, you and me' - said Pansy to his arch-rival Posco, as
they reached the Brandywine Bridge. He meant, of course, outside Shire.
--
Pradera
---
-ignorance is no excuse for stupidity-
http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/
http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/
The American
"Rudy" <ru...@rednecks.com> wrote in message
news:35ab3c7c.03022...@posting.google.com...
did you *really* read the Silmarilion?
it sounds like you missed a lot.
remember that the Silmarilion spanned a very long length of time.
a Hobbit's pride in the history of the Shire is a blink of the eye to an
elf.
and except for Feanor and his sons the Elves were as noble as you can get.
Dwarves fought amongst themselves and even on the side of Morgoth(?) and
Sauron.
T.A.
Gary E. Masters
This sort of comment is what makes a Tolkien board worthwhile.
Excellent.
Gary
John Brock
Glenn Holliday <holl...@acm.org> wrote:
>A parallel in LOTR recently bubbled up from my subconscious.
>In "The Scouring of the Shire" Frodo says "No hobbit has ever
>killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it is not to
>begin now." When _The Silmarillion_ was published, some part
>of my mind made a link between the hobbit experience and
>the Elvish experience of kinslaying.
Having just reread the Silmarillion after about 25 years I have to
say that for most of its history Middle Earth seems to have been
a rather rough place, and it is hard to believe that Hobbits could
have survived in it without ever having known or resorted to
violence. The Hobbits in the Shire may have been protected and
peaceable, but somewhere, sometime, there must have been Hobbits
who knew how to fight. Otherwise they wouldn't have survived long
enough to found the Shire.
I'm trying to visualize an army of grim, battle-scarred Hobbit
warriors, in their cute little Hobbit armor, charging into battle
on their adorable little Hobbit ponies....
OK, it's not really working for me, but I think my logic still
holds. :-)
--
John Brock
jbr...@panix.com
The American
"John Brock" <jbr...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:b3o3nn$psk$1...@panix1.panix.com...
from The Hobbit:
"Old Took's great-granduncle Bullroarer, who was so huge (for a hobbit) that
he could ride a horse. He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in
the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked their king Golfimbul's head
clean off with a wooden club. It sailed a hundred yards through the air and
went down a rabbit hole, and in this way the battle was won and the game of
Golf invented at the same moment."
and Gollum killed his hobbit friend.
T.A.
.
Aris Katsaris
"The American" <a_real_...@hotspammail.com> wrote in message
news:v5v5h23...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> from The Hobbit:
> "Old Took's great-granduncle Bullroarer, who was so huge (for a hobbit) that
> he could ride a horse. He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in
> the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked their king Golfimbul's head
> clean off with a wooden club. It sailed a hundred yards through the air and
> went down a rabbit hole, and in this way the battle was won and the game of
> Golf invented at the same moment."
>
> and Gollum killed his hobbit friend.
I don't have The Letters myself, but it seems there mentioned that
Pearl Took, Pippin's sister, may have been responsible for the
murder of "Lalia the Fat", a matriarch of the Took clan.
A google found me only a partial reading of this letter:
****
Letter #214
"A well-known case, also, was that of Lalia the Great (or less
courteously the Fat). Fortinbras II, one time head of the Tooks
and Thain, married Lalia of the Clayhangers in 1314, when he
was 36 and she was 31. He died in 1380 at the age of 102,
but she long outlived him, coming to an unfortunate end in 1402
at the age of 119. So she ruled the Tooks and the Great Smials
for 22 years, a great and memorable, if not universally beloved,
'matriarch'. She was not at the famous Party (SY 1401), but was
prevented from attending rather by her great size and immobility
than by her age. Her son, Ferumbras, had no wife, being unable
(it was alleged) to find anyone willing to occupy apartments in the
Great Smials, under the rule of Lalia. Lalia, in her last and fattest
years, had the custom of being wheeled to the great Door, to take
the air on a fine morning. In the spring of SY 1402 her clumsy
attendant let the heavy chair run over the threshold and tipped
Lalia down the flight of steps into the garden. So ended a reign
and life that might well have rivalled that of the Great Took."
*****
Also here:
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/30026
Aris Katsaris
AC
>
> Having just reread the Silmarillion after about 25 years I have to
> say that for most of its history Middle Earth seems to have been
> a rather rough place, and it is hard to believe that Hobbits could
> have survived in it without ever having known or resorted to
> violence. The Hobbits in the Shire may have been protected and
> peaceable, but somewhere, sometime, there must have been Hobbits
> who knew how to fight. Otherwise they wouldn't have survived long
> enough to found the Shire.
>
> I'm trying to visualize an army of grim, battle-scarred Hobbit
> warriors, in their cute little Hobbit armor, charging into battle
> on their adorable little Hobbit ponies....
>
> OK, it's not really working for me, but I think my logic still
> holds. :-)
See "Bandobras the Bullroarer"
--
A. Clausen
Matthew Revington
Morgil
"Glenn Holliday" <holl...@acm.org> kirjoitti
viestissä:3E5D5254...@acm.org...
> A parallel in LOTR recently bubbled up from my subconscious.
> In "The Scouring of the Shire" Frodo says "No hobbit has ever
> killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it is not to
> begin now." When _The Silmarillion_ was published, some part
> of my mind made a link between the hobbit experience and
> the Elvish experience of kinslaying.
> As a result, hobbits can boast they have never had a
> Kinslaying, and elves can only admit silently that
> they can't make that boast.
Nahh. Elves could just as well boast that no Elf has
ever killed another in Rivendell, Lorien or Mirkwood.
At least as far as we know...
Morgil
John Brock
"This one is a bit unusual guys. The forensic evidence suggests
that the victims were sat upon and then eaten..."
<followed by computer simulation of same...>
--
John Brock
jbr...@panix.com
Matthew Bladen
"Aris Katsaris" <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
news:b3o7n5$jjt$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> I don't have The Letters myself, but it seems there mentioned that
> Pearl Took, Pippin's sister, may have been responsible for the
> murder of "Lalia the Fat", a matriarch of the Took clan.
>
> A google found me only a partial reading of this letter:
>
> ****
> Letter #214
[snip]
> "... In the spring of SY 1402 her clumsy
> attendant let the heavy chair run over the threshold and tipped
> Lalia down the flight of steps into the garden. So ended a reign
> and life that might well have rivalled that of the Great Took."
> *****
What we are clearly seeing here is a manifestation of the 'Pippin Gene',
successfully isolated (after much experimentation) by Dr. Faramir.
The Pippin Gene is the recessive form of the Took Gene: that factor
in the makeup of Tooks that makes them apt for adventuring.
Occasionally a Took may by chance receive a double dose of
Tookishness, as seen in the case of the Übertook Bandobras. Pippin's
family, however, was sadly cursed with the recessive strain, which made
them foolhardy without skill or judgement.
The incredible survival of Pippin in the War of the Ring (against which
the Pippin Gene itself was fighting on many occasions - making him look
into the Palantir, contrive to get squashed by a troll, and so on) was,
alas,
the cause of the decline of the Tooks in the Fourth Age. No previous
sufferer had managed to live long enough to procreate (thanks to a skilful
eugenics campaign maintained by Gandalf -- all those hobbits who 'never
returned' were Pippins), but Pippin caused the mighty bloodline to
waste away into one long stream of stone-throwing, loud-question-asking-
in-dangerous-situations useless twits.
--
Matthew
Hobbit evolution: Survival of the Fattest.
The American
"Matthew Bladen" <trib...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b3ogrn$m7o$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
>
>
<snip>
very good!
T.A.
Clotilde
In the book, the usual form of fighting done by - geez - Merry or Pippin
that was actually on the battlefield, one of you people with perfect memories
provide that piece of info will you - was rather reminiscent of a small feisty
dog. To do damage to the legs. Then maybe attack the rest of them when they're
down? Somewhat like the scene in the movie in Fellowship where Merry & Pippin
bring Boramir down in play fighting by stomping his feet and then jumping
him once he's on the ground. So my imagination provides for me an army of
hobbits swarming like little terriers through a Big battlefield, cutting
ankles and swarming over the fallen.
-
-
As Asimov put it many years back, 'Major scientific discoveries don't
generally start with "Eureka!", they start with "That's funny ..."'.
Clotilde
This one seems to have been starved to death after his relatives camped out
at every available entrance and he ran out of food for not wanting to open
the door to them.
Jim Deutch
wrote:
>A parallel in LOTR recently bubbled up from my subconscious.
>In "The Scouring of the Shire" Frodo says "No hobbit has ever
>killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it is not to
>begin now."
But was Frodo actually correct when he said this? Speculation in The
Green Dragon (IIRC) was that his very own parents might have died
through foul play: "...she pushed him in, and he dragged her in after
him". This speculation came from Sandyman and was quickly quashed,
but that it even came up seems to indicate that such things were at
least not unthinkable. And it's not often that people who think of
things never do them (if you'll forgive my illogical grammar).
On the whole, I think you've characterised the author's main intention
very accurately. But Tolkien is never as simple as all that: his
world is so real because it contains contradictions and mysteries,
with truth, lie, and misconception inextricably mixed. That's why I
love it so.
Jim Deutch
--
"Utilitarianism? Pfagh! A useless concept!"
The American
"Clotilde" <Do...@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:v5vja8i...@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> In the book, the usual form of fighting done by - geez - Merry or Pippin
> that was actually on the battlefield, one of you people with perfect
memories
> provide that piece of info will you - was rather reminiscent of a small
feisty
> dog. To do damage to the legs. Then maybe attack the rest of them when
they're
> down?
well, i think in the books most orcs are rather small or dwarf sized.
it was rare to find one as big as a Man and when it was it was noted.
(i can't remember where right now though)
Saruman changed all that with his cross breed.
so hobbits and orcs would have been for the most part on even ground as far
as one on one fighting goes.
T.A.
Pete Gray
wrote:
>(Just to be complete, perhaps Tolkien had Frodo qualify
>his comment with "in the Shire" to account Smeagol as
>part of hobbit history and exclude his deeds from the
>boast.)
No, it's just that they always drive their hobbit victims over the
border, and do them in there. It was a tradition. Frodo was just
afraid it wouldn't be practicable to do that this time, but didn't
want to break with tradition. Very British, of course.
"No hobbit has ever killed another on purpose in the Shire" -- but
what about the killing of non-hobbits? Is that OK? Commonplace? Is
that why only hobbits live in the Shire -- incomers get whacked?
Unlike Bree. Hmmm.
--
Pete Gray
while ($cat!="home"){$mice=="play";}
the softrat
>Boramir
Isn't that supposed to be 'Borimor'?
the softrat "Wannabe orcodentist"
==>Jar-jaromir Lives!<==
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Help wanted: Telepath. You know where to apply.
K2_Greyhame
Well, I don't own TTT, but I'm pretty sure that after Boromir's death
Pippin says that Merry defended himself from the orcs, killing
multiples of them by beheading. Pretty impressive feat considering
the # of orcs, although the orcs were trying to capture Merry, not
kill him, but not everyone can be Hurin.
k2
coyotes rand mair fheal
> Pippin says that Merry defended himself from the orcs, killing
> multiples of them by beheading. Pretty impressive feat considering
by cutting off their hands
the orcs were under orders to grab them not kill them
Pradera
> I'm trying to visualize an army of grim, battle-scarred Hobbit
> warriors, in their cute little Hobbit armor, charging into battle
> on their adorable little Hobbit ponies....
>
> OK, it's not really working for me, but I think my logic still
> holds. :-)
> --
Obviously you've never seen a mad countryfolk... (english or other -
they're all the same when they're pissed off)
johnj
news:31ae81e1.03022...@posting.google.com...
> Well, I don't own TTT, but I'm pretty sure that after Boromir's death
> Pippin says that Merry defended himself from the orcs, killing
> multiples of them by beheading. Pretty impressive feat considering
> the # of orcs, although the orcs were trying to capture Merry, not
> kill him, but not everyone can be Hurin.
>
Orcs were not trying to fight back.