Arpad of Hungary >>> Jean "le hardi" Duke of Burgundy
Doug Holmes
descendants in Spain and Portugal. Can anyone shoot some holes into this or
fill in some blanks:
1 Arpád Prince of HUNGARY b. abt 0840
m. unknown
2 Zoltan Prince of HUNGARY b. 0896 Pannonia
m. Men Princess of BIHAR b. abt 0900 Bihar, Bihar megye, Hungary
3 Taksony Prince of HUNGARY
b. 0931 Szekesfehérvár, Fejér megye, Hungary
m. ?? Princess of the KUMANS b. 0932 Cumania
4 Mihály Prince of HUNGARY b. 0955 Esztergom, Hungary
m. Adelajda "The White" Princess of POLAND
b. abt 0955 Poznan, Poznan, Poland
5 Vazul (Vazoly) Prince of HUNGARY
b. 0976? Esztergom, Hungary d. 1037
m. Anastasia b. abt 0978 Esztergom, Hungary
6 Béla I King of HUNGARY b. abt 1015 Esztergom, Hungary
d. 1063 Nyitra, Nyitra
megye, Hungary
m. 1033 Richza Princess of POLAND
b. abt 1015 Krakow, Krakow, Poland d. aft 1052
7 Géza I, King of HUNGARY
b. abt 1040 Krakow, Krakow, Poland d. 25 Apr 1077
m. aft 1073 Sinadena b. abt 1050 Constantinople, Turkey
8 Almos (Vak Almos) Prince of HUNGARY
b. abt 1075 Esztergom, Hungary d. 1129 Domos, Greece
m. 11 Aug 1104 Premislava Svyatopolkovna of KIEV
b. 1075 Polotsk, B, Russia d. aft 1116
9 Béla II "The Blind" King of HUNGARY
b. 1108 Esztergom, Hungary d. 13 Feb 1141
m. 28 Apr 1129 Ilona Nemanjics Princess of SERBIA
b. abt 1115 Beograd, Serbia d.
1157
10 Géza II King of HUNGARY b. 1130 Tolna, Tolna megye,
Hungary
d.
31 May 1161
m. 1146 Evfrosiniya, Princess of KIEV b. 1130 Kiev,
Kiev, Ukraine
11 Béla III King of HUNGARY b. 1148 Esztergom, Hungary
11 Béla III King of HUNGARY b. 1148 Esztergom, Hungary
d. 23 Apr 1196
m. 1168 Constantinople, Turkey Agnes de CHATILLON
b. 1154 Versailles, Seine-et-Oise, France
d. 1184
12 András II, King of HUNGARY b. 1176 Esztergom,
Hungary
Hungary
d. 21 Sep 1235
m. Gertrude, Countess of ANDECHS
b. abt 1185 Andechs, Oberbayern, Bavaria
m. Iolande de COURTENAY
b. abt 1198 Courtenay, Loiret, France
13 Béla IV, King of HUNGARY (mother was Gertrude)
b. Nov 1206 Esztergom, Hungary d. 3 May 1270
m. abt 1220 Laskarina Princess of BYZANTIUM
b. abt 1206 Nicaea, Bursa, Turkey d.
1270
14 Anna Princess of HUNGARY b. abt 1227
m. Rostislav of KIEV b. abt 1225
15 Kunegunda Rostislavna Princess of KIEV
b. abt 1246 Kiev, Kiev, Ukraine d. 9 Sep 1285
m. never married (unknown man)
16 Vaclav II King of BOHEMIA & POLAND
b. 17 Sep 1271 Praha, Czech Republic
d. 21 Jun 1305 Praha, Czech Republic
m. 24 Jan 1285 Jihlava, Jihlava, Czech
Republic
Jutte Princess of AUSTRIA
b. 13 Mar 1271 Habsburg,
Argau, Switzerland d. 18 Jun 1297
17 Eliska Princess of BOHEMIA b. 20 Jan
1292 Czech Republic
1292 Czech Republic
d. 28 Sep 1330
m. 31 Aug 1310 Speyer, Pfalz, Bavaria
Jan King of BOHEMIA
b. 10 Aug 1296
Praha, Czech Republic
d. 26 Aug 1346
Crecy-En-Ponthieu, Somme, France
18 Jutte (Bona) Princess of BOHEMIA
b. 20 May 1315 Praha, Czech
Republic
d. 11 Sep 1349
m. 28 Mar 1332 Jean II "The Good" King
of FRANCE
b. 26 Apr 1319 Chateau de Gue
de Maulny, , France
d. 8 Apr 1364 London, England
19 Philippe II "Le Hardi" Prince of
FRANCE
b. 15 Jan 1342 Pontoise,
Seine-Et-Oise, France
d. 27 Apr 1404 Halle Nr
Bruxelles, B, Belgium
m. 19 Jun 1369 Gand, Flandre
Orientale, Belgium
Marguerite Countess of FLANDERS
b. 13 Apr 1350 Male,
Sainte-Croix, Flanders, Belgium
d. 16 Mar 1405 Arras,
Pas-De-Calais, France
20 Jean "Le Hardi" Duke of BURGUNDY
b. 28 May 1371 Dijon,
Cote-d'Or, France
d. 10 Sep 1419 Montereau,
Loiret, France
m. 12 Apr 1385 Cambrai, Nord,
France
Margarethe Princess of BAVARIA
b. 1363 'S Gravenhage,
Z-Hlln, Netherlands
d. 23 Jan 1423 Dijon,
Cote-d'Or, France
Source:
Mostly from LDS Ancestral File.
Thanks,
Doug Holmes
Doug Holmes
thru roots web...)
d. 23 Apr 1196
m. 1168 Constantinople, Turkey Agnes de CHATILLON
b. 1154 Versailles, Seine-et-Oise, France d. 1184
12 András II, King of HUNGARY b. 1176 Esztergom, Hungary
12 András II, King of HUNGARY b. 1176 Esztergom, Hungary
d. 21 Sep 1235
ED MANN
<mondo deleto>
> 13 Béla IV, King of HUNGARY (mother was Gertrude)
> b. Nov 1206 Esztergom, Hungary d. 3 May 1270
> m. abt 1220 Laskarina Princess of BYZANTIUM
> b. abt 1206 Nicaea, Bursa, Turkey d.
> 1270
> 14 Anna Princess of HUNGARY b. abt 1227
> m. Rostislav of KIEV b. abt 1225
This is where my data breaks down.
> 15 Kunegunda Rostislavna Princess of KIEV
> b. abt 1246 Kiev, Kiev, Ukraine d. 9 Sep 1285
> m. never married (unknown man)
> 16 Vaclav II King of BOHEMIA & POLAND
> b. 17 Sep 1271 Praha, Czech Republic
>
> d. 21 Jun 1305 Praha, Czech Republic
> m. 24 Jan 1285 Jihlava, Jihlava, Czech
> Republic
> Jutte Princess of AUSTRIA
> b. 13 Mar 1271 Habsburg,
> Argau, Switzerland d. 18 Jun 1297
I have nothing on generations 15 or 16, certainly nothing linking them
all toghther as shown. It may be perfectly correct; I just don't know.
> 17 Eliska Princess of BOHEMIA b. 20 Jan
> 1292 Czech Republic
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
Leo van de Pas
About thirty years ago I met someone in Amsterdam who, according to
me, lived close to the city centre. He lived in the house he was born in
but when he was born that part belonged to another municipality and, as
a result, he is not allowed to say he was born in Amsterdam. I really think
you should not use Belgium, Czech Republic, nor even Netherlands in a
family tree that ends several hundred years before those countries came
into being.
I went through this family tee (I did not check dates or place names)
and, despite a few quibbles, it holds.
First let me quibble.:-) Nr. 5 you call his wife Anastasia born in Hungary,
Schwennicke II page 153, calls her N (Katun) daughter (of Samuel Zar
der Bulgaren). Schwennicke is not certain and you give a name, an
approximate year of birth and a birthplace. Do you remember where you
found those?
Another quibble, but with Schwennicke, nr.4's wife is recorded by
Schwennicke in Vol II page 153 as daughter of Mieszko I and that after
the death of nr.4 Mihaly, she marries his brother Geza and has children by
both. However, in the same volume, page 120, Mieszko I of Poland is
given three wives : NN, Dobrawa of Bohemia and Oda von Haldensleben,
but only children (no Adelaida) are given by wife 2 and 3. The fist child
is born approximately 967 and this gives room to make Adelajda either a
child by the first wife or illegitimate. Surely Schwennicke, acknowledging
her existence on page 153, should have recorded her on page 120.
Now something that surprises me, nr.15 is it your computer system that make you
say never married (unknown man)? In fact she was married twice and surely
Bohemia would not accept a bastard? Nr.15's first husband and father of 16
was Przymysl Ottokar II, King of Bohemia.
Even if your information comes from the LDS ancestral File, please, remove
those Belgium, Czech and Netherlands entries. Also do not forget those
LDS files are compiled from contributions from people like you and me,
not from microfilming birthcertificates etc. and therefor (my suggestion)
use them as a guide line but double check elsewhere.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
>Hungary
>
> d. 21 Sep 1235
> m. Gertrude, Countess of ANDECHS
> b. abt 1185 Andechs, Oberbayern, Bavaria
>
> m. Iolande de COURTENAY
> b. abt 1198 Courtenay, Loiret, France
> 13 Béla IV, King of HUNGARY (mother was Gertrude)
> b. Nov 1206 Esztergom, Hungary d. 3 May 1270
> m. abt 1220 Laskarina Princess of BYZANTIUM
> b. abt 1206 Nicaea, Bursa, Turkey d.
>1270
> 14 Anna Princess of HUNGARY b. abt 1227
> m. Rostislav of KIEV b. abt 1225
> 15 Kunegunda Rostislavna Princess of KIEV
> b. abt 1246 Kiev, Kiev, Ukraine d. 9 Sep 1285
> m. never married (unknown man)
> 16 Vaclav II King of BOHEMIA & POLAND
> b. 17 Sep 1271 Praha, Czech Republic
>
> d. 21 Jun 1305 Praha, Czech Republic
> m. 24 Jan 1285 Jihlava, Jihlava, Czech
>Republic
> Jutte Princess of AUSTRIA
> b. 13 Mar 1271 Habsburg,
>Argau, Switzerland d. 18 Jun 1297
> 17 Eliska Princess of BOHEMIA b. 20 Jan
>1292 Czech Republic
>
Doug Holmes
I thought you might have a response. And I thank you very much for your
thoughts and information.
As for the locations like Czech Republic, I think that was my doing. Since
that's where Praha is, that's what I wrote, but you make a good point. For
the other misnamed locations, I have those until I can properly replace
them. Since I have not done much research outside my specialty areas, I
don't always know the name of the place at the time period in question. So
you might call it a work in progress. I'm sure you could properly name
them, but don't bother doing so on my behalf. I'll read up on it some day.
Just today I finally learned where PROVENCE is since it's listed in the
latest National Geographic as being in France. Now all those nobles I've
seen "of Provence" can at least be identified by me as from a general
location. I thought they might be in Greece or something until now...<g>.
You didn't mention the use of Hungary and you could have. The villages and
counties are accurate since I know them well, but if I were to follow
through with my proper spellings I should have said "Magyarorszag" - but
maybe not even that. It's not really something I have thought about. What
did the Kingdom of Hungary call itself? And before it was a kingdom? Most
people wouldn't recognize anything but Hungary, so I wrote that.
I liken your comments on location to the comments I once made on this list
about spelling names the way they were for the ancestor in question (as if
there was only one way...) and you're right.
About the quibbles you have in the line of descent, I have nothing to add
to it and that's the reason I asked. I surely realize the LDS data can be
faulty and they don't list references, so this was my first step in
verification. In the future I'll site the sources for each step.
You are correct about my comment of "(unknown man)" as being from me. I
wrote that in for two reasons. One is that some might not recognize it was
a female and the other is that it was my assumption. But the child was a
king, so my logic was faulty that a bastard could be king (a bastard of
unknown parentage).
For your information, the reason I have the interest is that one of the
most famous people of the Azores, Portugal, is supposed (by one historian,
at least) to be the grandson of Jean "le hardi" of Burgundy. His name is
Willem van der Haagen , a Flemish nobleman, and it changed to Guilherme da
Silveira in Portugal. Anyone of Portuguese descent from the Azores will
likely have heard of this man. I have many lines leading to him, but none
that are proven yet. It's one of the goals Azorean genealogists usually have.
Since I know you're a big collector of genealogies from all walks of life,
I'll make you an offer. Would you like to know anything about the
descendants of this Guilherme da Silveira? (or do you already have him in
your files...)
Thanks!
Doug Holmes
Michael Burley
>
> Dear Leo,
>
> I thought you might have a response. And I thank you very much for your
> thoughts and information.
>
> You didn't mention the use of Hungary and you could have. The villages and
> counties are accurate since I know them well, but if I were to follow
> through with my proper spellings I should have said "Magyarorszag" - but
> maybe not even that. It's not really something I have thought about. What
> did the Kingdom of Hungary call itself? And before it was a kingdom? Most
> people wouldn't recognize anything but Hungary, so I wrote that.
Doug,
I try to use both the old and new location names whenever possible ie:
Ghent (Belgium) or Montbeliard (now France) for example. While we both
know where Magyarorszag was, many do not. Let's help them!
Mike
Doug Holmes
>
>Doug,
>
>I try to use both the old and new location names whenever possible ie:
>Ghent (Belgium) or Montbeliard (now France) for example. While we both
>know where Magyarorszag was, many do not. Let's help them!
>
>Mike
Hi Mike,
You have a good idea, but I can imagine a couple problems. Sometimes there
is not enough room to fully write out the location on the line for it in
the genealogy program. But when there is room for it, having the English
name in ( ) is a good idea.
Doug
Leo van de Pas
>
>I try to use both the old and new location names whenever possible ie:
>Ghent (Belgium) or Montbeliard (now France) for example. While we both
>know where Magyarorszag was, many do not. Let's help them!
>
>Mike
>
You are moving into awkward territory. Ghent, as you call it, is/was in
the Flemish part of what is now Belgium, and is spelled Gent. With Hungary,
I see no problem in using
that version, remember I did not quote Hungary to Doug Holmes. I may be
wrong but Hungary (English) came from Ungarn (German) which was a phonetic
fumble of Magyar.
I would object if people use country names in periods when those countries
did not exist but the real problem is place names. Somehow, each person
must decide for themselves and apply rules (you always have exceptions to
rules). Myself I call Florence=Firenze Munich=Munchen, but what about Rome?
Roma is the proper spelling but Rome has earned a recognition which may be
lost if Roma is used. But then everybody should work out their own solution.
mond...@mail.utexas.edu
What did you mean about "(such as all of that completely fictional early
Scandinavian nonsense)"? To which of the early Scandinavian lists are
referring?
I fear I may have bought into some.
Thanks,
Francesca Sutton
Stewart Baldwin
>To Mr. Stewart Baldwin:
Since I don't have a copy of Royalty for Commoners (having better
things to do with my money), I can't give the direct references.
Roughly speaking, if you have accepted any Scandinavian data from
Royalty for Commoners which goes prior to the year 900, then your
fears are probably justified (and a good deal of the data after 900 is
alos bad). If you would post the material that is worrying you, then
those of us who have looked at these Scandinavian lines could tell you
more.
Stewart Baldwin
mond...@mail.utexas.edu
Frithuwulf
b. abt 0120
Frealaf or Frialaf
b. abt 0150
Frithuwald
b. abt 0180
Sverige, Wodin Odin AV DROTTNAR
b. bef 0210
d. Swithiod
br.
& Frigg or Frigida
b. bef 0210
Sverige, Frey Yngve UPPSALA DROTTNAR
b. aft 0225
& Gerd GYMISDOTTIR
b. aft 0220
Sverige, Fjolne FREYSSON YNGLING DROTTNAR
b. aft 0255
Sverige, Swegde YNGLING AV DROTTNAR
b. aft 0275
& Vana VANHEIM
b. aft 0280
Uppsala, Vanlande YNGLING AV DROTTNAR
b. aft 0310
& Driva SNAESDOTTIR
b. abt 0320
Uppsala, Visbur YNGLING AV DROTTNAR
b. abt 0340
& [anonym] AUDESDOTTIR
b. aft 0345
Uppsala, Domald VISBURSSON YNGLING DROTTNAR
b. abt 0360
Uppsala, Domar DOMALDSSON YNGLING Koenig
b. abt 0380
& Drott DANPSDOTTIR
b. abt 0390
Uppsala, Dygve DOMARSSON YNGLING Koenig
b. abt 0405
Sverige, Dag YNGLING DYGVESSON Koenig
b. abt 0425
Sverige, Agne DAGSSON YNGLING Koenig
b. abt 0445
Sverige, Alric YNGLING AGNESSON Koenig
b. abt 0465
& Dageid Dagling DAGSDOTTIR
b. abt 0470
Sweden, Njord of Noatun Koenig
b. aft 0225
& Skade
b. aft 0260
Sverige, Frey Yngve UPPSALA DROTTNAR
b. aft 0225
& Gerd GYMISDOTTIR
b. aft 0220
Sverige, Fjolne FREYSSON YNGLING DROTTNAR
b. aft 0255
Sverige, Swegde YNGLING AV DROTTNAR
b. aft 0275
& Vana VANHEIM
b. aft 0280
Uppsala, Vanlande YNGLING AV DROTTNAR
b. aft 0310
& Driva SNAESDOTTIR
b. abt 0320
Uppsala, Visbur YNGLING AV DROTTNAR
b. abt 0340
& [anonym] AUDESDOTTIR
b. aft 0345
Uppsala, Domald VISBURSSON YNGLING DROTTNAR
b. abt 0360
Uppsala, Domar DOMALDSSON YNGLING Koenig
b. abt 0380
& Drott DANPSDOTTIR
b. abt 0390
Uppsala, Dygve DOMARSSON YNGLING Koenig
b. abt 0405
Sverige, Dag YNGLING DYGVESSON Koenig
b. abt 0425
Sverige, Agne DAGSSON YNGLING Koenig
b. abt 0445
Sverige, Alric YNGLING AGNESSON Koenig
b. abt 0465
& Dageid Dagling DAGSDOTTIR
b. abt 0470
Sweden, Yngve YNGLING ALRICSSON Koenig
b. abt 0485
& Bera
b. abt 0490
Uppsala, Jaarund YNGLING YNGVESSON Koenig
b. abt 0485
Uppsala, Aun Dem Gamle JAARUNDSSON Koenig
b. abt 0525
Uppsala, Egil VENDELKRAAKA ANESSON Koenig
b. abt 0545
Uppsala, Ottar VENDELKRAAKA YNGLING Koenig
b. abt 0565
& Yrsa
b. abt 0570
Uppsala, Adil YNGLING OTTARSON Koenig
b. abt 0585
& Yrsa HELGESDOTTIR av Danemark
b. abt 0590
Uppsala, Eystein ADILSSON AV KOENIG
b. abt 0605
Uppsala, Yngvar HAARA YNGLING Koenig
b. abt 0625
Uppsala, Onund YNGLING YNGVARSSON Koenig
b. abt 0645
Uppsala, Ingjald YNGLING EVILHEART Koenig
b. abt 0665
& Gauthild ALGAUTSDOTTIR
b. abt 0670
Olaf Treeshaver VERMELAND YNGLING
b. abt 0685
& Solva Solveig SOLEYAR HALFDANSDOTTIR
b. abt 0690
Aasa Yngling Evil Advisor INGJALDSDOTTIR
b. abt 0685
& Scania, Gudrod of Koenig
b. abt 0680
Olaf Treeshaver VERMELAND YNGLING
b. abt 0685
& Solva Solveig SOLEYAR HALFDANSDOTTIR
b. abt 0690
Soleyar, Halfdan HVITBEIN YNGLING
b. abt 0705
& Asa EYSTEINSDOTTIR
b. abt 0710
Westfold, Eystein YNGLING HALFDANSSON Koenig
b. abt 0725
& Hild ERIKSSDOTTIR Queen of Westfold
b. abt 0730
Westfold, Halfdan the Bounteous EYSTEINSSON TEILKOENIG
b. abt 0745
& Westmare, Hilf Lif DAGSDOTTIR
b. bef 0750
Westfold, Gudrod HUNTERKING YNGLING Koenig
b. abt 0765
d. 0810, or 820
& Alfhildr ALFARINSDOTTIR
b. bef 0770
Adger, Ragnvald GUDRODSSON YNGLING
b. bef 0785
& Tora SIGURDSDOTTIR
b. bef 0785
Ascrida Yngling RAGNVALDSDOTTIR*
b. abt 0805
& Eystein "the Noisy" GLUMRA Jarl of Uplanders
b. 0788
Maere, Ragnvald I, the Wise EYSTEINSSON of More*
b. 0820
d. 0890, or 894
& Ragnhild (Hildr) HROLFSDOTTIR
b. abt 0848
Robert (Rollo) RAGNVALDSSON OF NORWAY 1st Duke of Normandy*
b. 0846, Norway
d. 0932
& Poppa de Valois of Normandy Duchess of Normandy
b. abt 0872
m. 0886
William I, Longsword, of Normandy, 2nd Duke of Normandy*
b. abt 0891
thanks,
Francesca
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 9/25/98 2:18:17 PM, mond...@mail.utexas.edu writes:
<<Frithuwulf
b. abt 0120
Frealaf or Frialaf
b. abt 0150
Frithuwald
b. abt 0180
Sverige, Wodin Odin AV DROTTNAR
b. bef 0210
d. Swithiod
br.
& Frigg or Frigida
b. bef 0210>>
This sounds like the legendary oral materials. Is this Frigg not the deity for
which Friday was named?
Proof is not possible for legendary materials, but that does not make it any
less interesting. These arenas where myth meets man are often more poignant
that the average name on a list about whom nothing is known.
What are the sources for these legendary descents?
Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION
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Voice: 303-420-4888 Fax: 303-420-4845 e-mail: K...@AOL.com
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Stewart Baldwin
>I hope this isn't too much, but here are the ones I heedlessly stuck in:
>Frithuwulf
> b. abt 0120
>Frealaf or Frialaf
> b. abt 0150
>Frithuwald
> b. abt 0180
>Sverige, Wodin Odin AV DROTTNAR
> b. bef 0210
> d. Swithiod
> br.
>& Frigg or Frigida
> b. bef 0210
All of the above is fabrication of the medieval pseudohistorians, and
should be discarded from any genealogical database that is intended to
include real individuals.
>Olaf Treeshaver VERMELAND YNGLING
> b. abt 0685
>& Solva Solveig SOLEYAR HALFDANSDOTTIR
> b. abt 0690
>Aasa Yngling Evil Advisor INGJALDSDOTTIR
> b. abt 0685
>& Scania, Gudrod of Koenig
> b. abt 0680
>Olaf Treeshaver VERMELAND YNGLING
> b. abt 0685
>& Solva Solveig SOLEYAR HALFDANSDOTTIR
> b. abt 0690
Olaf is the transitional figure between the mythical Swedish Ynglings
and the later group of kings from Ynglingatal who can plausibly be
regarded as having existed. There does not seem to be any good way of
telling whether or not Olaf himself was real, or just invented as the
link between the earlier and later parts (but if he did exist, he was
later than the seventh century). It is a pretty good bet that Olaf's
alleged wives can be discarded as late inventions.
>Soleyar, Halfdan HVITBEIN YNGLING
> b. abt 0705
>& Asa EYSTEINSDOTTIR
> b. abt 0710
>Westfold, Eystein YNGLING HALFDANSSON Koenig
> b. abt 0725
>& Hild ERIKSSDOTTIR Queen of Westfold
> b. abt 0730
>Westfold, Halfdan the Bounteous EYSTEINSSON TEILKOENIG
> b. abt 0745
>& Westmare, Hilf Lif DAGSDOTTIR
> b. bef 0750
>Westfold, Gudrod HUNTERKING YNGLING Koenig
> b. abt 0765
>d. 0810, or 820
>& Alfhildr ALFARINSDOTTIR
> b. bef 0770
Usually inserted here is a king Olaf
>Adger, Ragnvald GUDRODSSON YNGLING
> b. bef 0785
>& Tora SIGURDSDOTTIR
> b. bef 0785
The above six kings (Halfdan, Eystein, Halfdan, Gudrod, [Olaf], and
Ragnvald) are the most recent king mentioned in Ynglingatal, written
in the late ninth or early tenth century. These kings most likely
existed, but nothing certain is known of them, and there is no
guarantee that each was the son of the previous one as the late
sources claim. (Ynglingatal does not state any relationships between
these individuals, and it is quite possible that the father-son
relationships given in the late sources were an unwarranted
assumption.) While none of these individuals can be accurately
located chronologically except for Ragnvald (late ninth or early tenth
century) the dates given above for these individuals are almost
certainly too early by a hundred years or so. The supposed wives of
these individuals do not appear in any of the early sources, and are
most likely late inventions. Unfortunately, even though the above six
kings may be regarded as probably real, there do not exist any well
documented genealogical connections between them and any later
individuals (as has been discussed in more detail in this group on
several occasions).
>Ascrida Yngling RAGNVALDSDOTTIR*
> b. abt 0805
>& Eystein "the Noisy" GLUMRA Jarl of Uplanders
> b. 0788
Eystein's existence is doubtful. Even if he was real, it would be
chronologically impossible for his wife to be a dughter of the above
Ragnvald.
>Maere, Ragnvald I, the Wise EYSTEINSSON of More*
> b. 0820
>d. 0890, or 894
>& Ragnhild (Hildr) HROLFSDOTTIR
> b. abt 0848
While it is quite probable that Ragnvald was a historical individual
(and ancestor of the jarls of Orkney), his supposed status as the
father of Rollo of Normandy is a matter of controversy. In my
opinion, the alleged link is almost certainly false (for reasons
explained by me in numerous previous postings to this group), but the
link is accepted by others.
>Robert (Rollo) RAGNVALDSSON OF NORWAY 1st Duke of Normandy*
> b. 0846, Norway
>d. 0932
>& Poppa de Valois of Normandy Duchess of Normandy
> b. abt 0872
>m. 0886
>William I, Longsword, of Normandy, 2nd Duke of Normandy*
> b. abt 0891
Except for the dates, these last two generations are OK. More
believable dates would be perhaps 900-910 for William's birthdate and
ca. 870-880 for Rollo's, but none of the above dates is backed up by
any good evidence.
Stewart Baldwin
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 9/26/98 2:22:55 AM, sb...@auburn.campus.mci.net writes:
<<All of the above is fabrication of the medieval pseudohistorians, and
should be discarded from any genealogical database that is intended to
include real individuals. >>
All very true. This is more history than genealogy, but some of these names
were undoubtedly passed down orally for generations. They developed their own
mythology and were further refined by the medieval chroniclers. The study or
myth is quite valid--though not for strict genealogical purposes, perhaps.
The following post from Professor George Clark sheds a little light on the
issue of the questionable Scandinavians:
"Vergil's *Aeneid* connects Rome with Troy and makes the now "eternal city"
a new city built on the ashes of ancient Troy, a successor to what was the
world's greatest city in a past our antiquity could regard as antiquity.
Vergil's model began a myth of national origins for the Scandinavians
too--Snorri Sturluson connects the Aesir with Asia and makes the fall of
Troy the beginning of the ancient Scandinavian world. Thus he can make the
gods, the Aesir, people with the world's most distinguished descent--echte
Trojan--and make them acceptable to the church and its bishops. Then he
can tell stories about them as gods, but keep on redefining them as people.
The *Aenid* was the model for differing myths of national origin. Without
the *Aeneid*, Snorri would have had to find another tale or myth--and no
doubt he would have." - George Clark [Queens University, England.]