Imperial Fleet Size Calculations.
Commander Thelea
((Rob, if you'd please, replace the ones on the Fanfic archive with
this updated version of the Imperial Fleet Calcs.))
Here's something that will answer all of those nagging
questions about the size of the Imperial Starfleet. It is based
entirely on Canon and Official information, with considerable
research into the naval practices of the Galactic Empire and
comparable governments on Earth to fill in the gaps; Consider
this to be the Upper Limit, but not the absolute maximum,
for the Imperial Starfleet based
on all currently available information, but it is NOT random; I
will explain each estimation below it's listings. This figures
are based on the WEG "One Million Member Worlds and 50 million
Colonies, Protectorates and Governorships" statement.
Sector Group: 2 Mobile Deepdocks; 120 Very Heavy Repair Ships;
2,260 Noncombatant resupply ships; 240 Torpedo Spheres; 28,372
Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters long; 11,902
Heavy Frigates/Light Destroyers 450-1,000 meters long; 80 Heavy
Destroyers 1,001-1,600 meters long.
Calculated using the full augmentation for each force inside a
Sector Group, at maximum ships for each line. It's safe to
assume that since the book is set immedietly after Yavin, that
by the time of Endor, all sector fleets would be at this
strength, considering Imperial manufacturing capabilities as
based on the second Death Star, which was built secretly, after
all.
Sector Groups (Total): 3,200 Mobile Deepdocks, 192,000 Very
Heavy Repair Ships; 3,616,000 Noncombatant resupply ships;
384,000 Torpedo Spheres; 45,395,200 Corvettes/Gunships/Light
Frigates 101-449 meters long; 19,043,200 Heavy Frigates/Light
Destroyers 450-1,000 meters long; 128,000 Heavy Destroyers 1,001-
1,600 meters long.
Based on the 1,026 Sector estimate based on the Phantom Menace (Number
of saucers in the senate building),
and giving it a total of 1,600 Sector Groups based on a rough
estimate of the number of Sector Groups assigned
to "Oversectors", 250 Sector Groups hidden in the Unknown
Regions, those hidden in the Deep Core, and any additional
sectors that might have been added since the time of The Phantom
Menace. The Empire was almost certainly highly expansionistic.
In addition, this can also take in account the official expansion in
the Deep Core, which IS documented... Finally, there are also the 250
full Sector Fleets hidden in the Unknown Regions by Thrawn, as I
mentioned above.
Colonies, Protectorates and Governorship defence fleets:
225,000,000 (Alternatively: 300,000,000) Corvettes/Gunships/Light
Frigates 101-449 meters long;
225,000,000 (Alternatively: 300,000,000) Non-Hyperdrive equipped Light
Picket Ships;
50,000,000 multipurpose defence stations.
Based on using the Bakuran defence force of two 350 meter long
light frigates (Carrack Cruisers) and Four 125 meter long gunships,
along with one multipurpose orbital station (As per the Truce at Baruka
novel), and a patrol group of 6 IPV-1 picket ships that was mentioned
in the Truce at Bakura sourcebook by WEG.
It should be noted that Bakura is your average colony/protectorate; It
has one industry of particular interest, but not major, and a small
population, less than a billion. Irrelevent, virtually, on the scale of
Intergalactic civilization with planets like Coruscant that have a
population of 650 trillion beings.
Member World defence fleets: 2,000,000 Heavy Destroyers 1,001-
1,600 meters long; 6,000,000 Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates
101-449 meters long; 6,000,000 Non-Hyperdrive Equipped Light
Picket Ships; 2,000,000 Golan-III Battlestations (Or firepower
equivalent in larger number of smaller stations.); 1,000,000
Multipurpose defence stations.
I used the two Golan-IIIs as a firepower representation, and
also based on the two guarding Coruscant that were presumably
captured from the Empire, during "The Krytos Trap". The Heavy
Destroyers (ISDs) are based on the assumption that the two left
behind by Ysanne Isard were part of Coruscant's defence fleet.
There was no reason to leave them behind otherwise; Considering
how few ships she had, she needed them badly. It would only make
sense to leave them behind if they were part of Coruscant's
traditional defence fleet. This figure has limited support from
several comics as well that suggest atleast one ISD is stationed
above major worlds at all times. The rest of the fleet is
identical to that in size and ship-types to a Colony world's
fleet, assuming that the heavier platforms and ships are added
on for the member worlds to that standard fleet.
Should computer games be added as official material, the number
of platforms could be increased by around x3.
Imperial Navy: 25,000 Heavy Destroyers 1,001-1,600 meters long;
5,000 Light/Medium Cruisers 1,601 meters long to 4,999 meters
long; 5,000 Heavy
Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Carriers/Battleships/Commandships 5,000
meters to 17,600+ meters long (Estimated max superlaser
equipped: 250.) Also: 6 Torpedo Spheres.
Based on the "25,000 ISD" claim from WEG for the Imperial Navy.
This claim was highly odd, because WEG's own figures suggest a
minimum of 128,000 ISDs in their Order of Battle. Likewise was
the claim that only 6 Torpedo Spheres were in service when the
Order of Battle suggested over 300,000 Torpedo Spheres (Which
made me conclude the idea of finding weaknesses in planetary
shields was hogwash; With one bombardment fleet and one assault
fleet, you'd have 200 Torpedo spheres, IE, 10,000 proton
torpedoes a salvo, firing at the shields. That would batter them
down using pure firepower, especially if the other armed ships
joined in.). I chose a different interpetation; The 6 Torpedo
Spheres and 25,000 ISDs are in the "Imperial Navy" according to
WEG. In the Canon movies, it's always called the "Imperial
Starfleet". Therefore, I concluded that the ENTIRE Imperial
Starfleet has far more ISDs and Torpedo Spheres, while there is
a group of the Imperial Starfleet specifically devoted to heavy
combat engagements as opposed to "Coast Guard" style work that
the Sector Groups and planetary defence forces work on. This
fleet contains the 25,000 ISDs and 6 Torpedo Spheres, along with
the following ships: A minimum of 5,000 ships larger than ISDs,
as based on a 5 ISD escort for the Executor at Hoth. However,
according to one computer game (Which are official according to
Curtis Saxton's interpretation; by the rules of the FAQ,
disregard the 10,000 figure and use the 5,000 figure), a ESB
Arcade Game, another ship larger than ISDs participated at Hoth,
namely, in the search for the Falcon, though was not at the
initial attack; it is possible it had a slower Hyperdrive, and in Lord
Vader's haste, he left it behind. I concluded then that three of
the ISDs would be the Executor's escort, and two that of the
other ship. From this, I derived the 10,000 heavy ship figure,
split evenly between light and medium cruisers and vessels
larger than that. The Six torpedo spheres are in three bombard lines of
two spheres each.
Totals for the Imperial Starfleet: 3,200 Mobile Deepdocks,
192,000 Very Heavy Repair Ships; 3,616,000 Noncombatant
resupply ships; 384,006 Torpedo Spheres; 276,395,200 (Or 351,395,200)
Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters long;
231,000,000 (Alternatively: 306,000,000) Non-hyperdrive equipped light
picket ships;
19,043,200 Heavy Frigates/Light Destroyers 450-1,000 meters
long; 2,153,000 Heavy Destroyers 1,001-1,600 meters long; 5,000
Light/Medium Cruisers 1,601 meters long to 4,999 meters long;
5,000 Heavy
Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Carriers/Battleships/Commandships 5,000
meters to 17,600+ meters long (Estimated max superlaser
equipped: 250; Percentage of known Executors against
Eclipses/Sovereigns as a comparison.); 51,000,000 multipurpose defence
stations;
2,000,000 Golan-III Battlestations; Other Support
ships/Stations/Outposts: UNKNOWN. Possibly as many as three times that
number of defence outposts, based on the computer games, or even more,
but that is not admissable evidence, so they have been left out.
This is everything added together, and separated by ship type,
as you can see. The total
number of combat ships is around:
378,000,000 of all types (Rounded), roughly, plus 306,000,000 Non-
hyperspace capable picket ships, still capable of fighting, just no
hyperdrivers,
and some 51,000,000 platforms,
plus gods know how many we don't have accurate figures for.
Also, around 4,000,000 resupply and support ships that are
unarmed, and probably alot more we have no accurate figures for,
and finally 3,200 mobile Deepdocks, plus all the non-mobile
construction/repair facilities that we cannot accurately guess
of in total numbers.
In a total of all Hyperspace capable combat starships over 100
meters in length, divided among the 51,000,000 inhabited worlds,
we get an average of around 7, that's right, only SEVEN ships
PER INHABITED PLANET. I sincerely hope this gives you a true
sense of the scope and scale of the Galactic Empire.
In terms of an invasion force, ONLY the Imperial Navy, with
it's Six Torpedo Spheres, 25,000 Heavy Destroyers, and
5,000-10,000 Cruiser/Battleship/Carrier/Command rate ships would
be capable of entering and invading another galaxy. The other
378,000,000 combat starships would HAVE to stay in their home
galaxy to police it against rebels, pirates, smugglers,
terrorists, and potential yet highly unlikely enemy raids from
the invaded galaxy or the unknown regions. Considering that the
Imperial Navy is the only truely mobile force out of all these
ships, the Galactic Empire would have essentially zero offensive
capacity in it's own galaxy during an invasion; only defence,
except for the direct pacification of known, rebelling planets,
and small operations within sectors. Any large scale offensive
against the rebels or Unknown Region species would be impossible
with the Imperial Navy committed to another galaxy; The
Starfleet would just have to hold the line until the
pacification either succeeded or failed and the Navy returned,
or what was left of it. Certainly, though, the Starfleet is
quite capable of holding the line; it just simply doesn't have
the resources to conduct it's own offensive operations.. That's
the Navy's job.
Well.. There you have it. The Starfleet and the elite offensive
part of it called the Navy, that make up the space-combat arm of
the Galactic Empire's military machine.
Essentially, the Empire is a MASSIVE organization in terms of pure
numbers;
But the necessity of guarding 1,000,000 major planets and 50,000,000
minor planets cuts so considerably into these numbers that no more than
on the order of 25,000 destroyers, 5,000 cruisers, and 5,000 capital
ships, supported by 6 mobile bombardment platforms, could be used for
an invasion, or rallied in one place to stop one. This is probably the
fleet under Vader's command that was far-flung throughout the galaxy
looking for the Rebels; He likely chose one region of space for
himself, with the Grand Admirals taking the others, or administrating
the Starfleet, which is unlikely considering it is an asset for the
military governors, not the true navy with the above ships.
Of course, local area ships could be, in an emergency, gathered to
stand with this fleet, but such is likely to be unnecessary.
After the collapse of the Empire, the individual warlord Moffs and
their ike took control of the portions of the Starfleet and fought to
the death, while the Grand Admirals also turned warlord, and more ships
were hidden in the Deep Core for the clone of the Emperor, explaining
the destruction of this once awesome fleet, through fratricidal combat.
Note that these are always undergoing revision, and are admittedly on
shakey ground, but the simple facts are that they match up with the
known evidence about the size of the Empire, and a fleet necessary to
patrol and defend said Empire, and also explain the huge
inconsistancies in both official and canon material.
Finally, there is one last thing to note.
The Empire built the Death Star. An object that, when complete, would
have massed as much as FIFTY BILLION Galaxy class Starships.
Now, granted, an ISD masses considerably more than a GCS, but not
REMOTELY enough to make these figures implausible.
Though I haven't yet done it myself, assuming the heavy ships are all
Executors, the total mass of this fleet is probably LESS than the
completed Death Star II would have been!!!!
378,000,000 combat starships and 306,000,000 sublight picket starships
is a conservative estimate; It assumes that the average mass of each of
those ships is somewhere on the order of seven (7) TIMES the mass of a
Galaxy Class Starship... If the entire Imperial Warship production line
is only comparable to the completed Death Star II!!!!!!
Considering that 306,000,000 are 150 meter long sublight pickets, this
is obviously not the case; Certainly some of the starships will be
massive, but none larger than an Eclipse, and those are limited to some
5,000 capital ships.
I would say that this fleet's existance would be made reasonable by
the existance of the Death Star II ALONE.. However, I've also provided
considerable supporting evidence, I daresay.
And in terms of invasion, the crushing blow of 5,000 Capital ships
escorted by 5,000 cruisers and 25,000 ISDs would certainly collapse the
Milky Way powers like a tidal wave; It's up to the techies to determine
the exact firepower and range of the weaponry and the defensive
shielding, etc, but the fact remains that 25,000 ISDs escorting 5,000
Cruisers and 5,000 Capital ships would hit the at least the Alpha
Quadrant and overwhelm the major powers there by sheer weight of
numbers.
And if anything was going wrong, simply divert the production of the
Death Star II into more ships. Hundreds of millions of more ships.
Incidently, the total number of crewers required for this fleet comes
out as roughly 40% of the population of Coruscant. (Assuming the
accepted figure of 650 trillion people).
Considering the number of worlds the Empire has.. Even with an army,
they're still under-militarized.
Thank you for your time and reading this. It's the latest refinement
in a long line of refinements on the sheer, staggering scale and scope
of the Imperial Starfleet.
--
Carthago Delenda Est!
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Chris O'Farrell
But
As a subnote in the Order of battle section it clearly states that this OOB
is a 'normal case' OOB and that most of the time the units may be
understrength or even may not exist. And a bit later it gives the run down
on a sector group, which contradicts all of this. It gives 24ISD's per
sector and 1026 sectors = 24576 ISD's (more or less equal to the 25,000
stated).
And for more evidence that the OOB is what the empire WANTED but never GOT,
it stats in the same sourcebook about torpedo spheres that only 7 have been
built at the time of this report. However in your sector groups, you claim
240 of them. You justify this by saying its wrong, but its far more likly
that as per the disclaimer, this fleet level was never ever reached
I appricate the work you put into it, and its much easier to work with then
the way its layed out in the source, but its flawed.
Strowbridge
> And for more evidence that the OOB is what the empire WANTED but never GOT,
> it stats in the same sourcebook about torpedo spheres that only 7 have been
> built at the time of this report. However in your sector groups, you claim
> 240 of them. You justify this by saying its wrong, but its far more likly
> that as per the disclaimer, this fleet level was never ever reached
OR, it could mean that only 7 had been made by that time but all had
been done eventually.
C.S.Strowbridge
Commander Thelea
There's always a but when you write something, Chris.
> As a subnote in the Order of battle section it clearly states that
this OOB
> is a 'normal case' OOB and that most of the time the units may be
> understrength or even may not exist. And a bit later it gives the run
down
> on a sector group, which contradicts all of this. It gives 24ISD's per
> sector and 1026 sectors = 24576 ISD's (more or less equal to the
25,000
> stated).
Here's my "But":
You see, the thing, Chris, is that the OOBs are for IMMEDIATELY AFTER
THE BATTLE OF YAVIN.
::clears her throat::
Comprehende, now?
If the Death Star II would have been built in about a year, with six
months of that cutting into the time before Return of the Jedi and the
Battle of Endor, then you have three and a half years of your full
wartime manufacturing going towards filling out those OOBs.
Based on the amount of material going into the Death Star in six
months, it should be VERY easy for the full OOBs that I have stated to
be filled out within 3.5 years.
Remember, the Sourcebook is set immediately after Yavin; My calcs are
set at the same time as Endor, or possibly 6 months before Endor.
Quite simply, you'd have a point if they were based on the fleet
immediately after Yavin.
3.5 years later, however, considering half of a Death Star II built in
six months.... The equivlant of 25 billion Galaxy Class Starships in
six months... 175 billion in 3.5 years...
Well, you see what I'm getting at.
Those 3.5 years EASILY allow the Empire to build up from the levels
you stated to the levels in my Imperial Fleet Calculations, hence
negating your arguement.
>
> And for more evidence that the OOB is what the empire WANTED but
never GOT,
> it stats in the same sourcebook about torpedo spheres that only 7
have been
> built at the time of this report. However in your sector groups, you
claim
> 240 of them. You justify this by saying its wrong, but its far more
likly
> that as per the disclaimer, this fleet level was never ever reached
>
> I appricate the work you put into it, and its much easier to work
with then
> the way its layed out in the source, but its flawed.
>
>
Again, see above. 3.5 years is a LONG time to build Torpedo Spheres in
when you look at the Death Star.
Also, I did contend that the number of Torpedo Spheres were those
assigned to Lord Vader's Navy, not to the Starfleet as a whole.
Either way, it makes that arguement irrelevent.
Remember, my calculations are set around Endor, giving the Empire more
than enough time to reach those projections... Exceptionally more than
enough time, when the speed at which the huge mass of the DSII was
manufactured is taken into consideration!
Kazuaki Shimazaki
Hey, you that person that made up that 378,000,000 starship total? I was
stunned at first by that estimate, but when I thought about DS2's
horrendous rate of completion, I finally accepted it.
Chris O'Farrell
They are good points, but again we never see anything like these numbers in
the Imperial fleet in any other source BAR this one, including the ones
after this. Its possible that after this document, production was somewhat
slowed or stopped as there is no other evidence that coribirates with these
numbers
Commander Thelea
Exactly, Strowbridge. They had 3.5 years from the time that report was
published to the time they started building the Death Star Mk.II to
build up their fleets to these levels.
Incidently, what did you want to put this post on?
I'm going to make a refined version with the note about that 3.5 year
differential to shore up the theory a bit, and then have Rob put that
up on the Fanfic archive.. And you can put up that version where you
wish to as soon as I finish touching it up.
Does the FUQ also include things such as this, or is it purely for
humour stuff?
Commander Thelea
>
> Hey, you that person that made up that 378,000,000 starship total? I
was
> stunned at first by that estimate, but when I thought about DS2's
> horrendous rate of completion, I finally accepted it.
>
I didn't make them up.. I just calculated the truth.
I got sick of the idea of 6,000,000 starships protecting 51 million
planets, as it seemed impossible.
So I compiled every piece of evidence I had and hit the figures.
When I was done, the results were pleasantly surprising, and those are
the results.
378,000,000 ships 101 meters or longer in length and fitted with
hyperdrives.
306,000,000 ships 101 or longer in length and NOT fitted with
hyperdrives.
This is only COMBAT ships; It doesn't count fleet resupply,
transports, troop ships, etc, etc.
And it does not count anything 100 meters or less in length.
Even then, the sheer, staggering scale of the Empire is such that the
planets could be called underdefended, and the Empire having a military
that is small percentage-wise compared to those of the countries of
Earth.
It truly is amazing.
I think I'll refine it to include a reminder about the 3.5 years of
construction time, and then have Rob put that one up..
Kyle
Just wondering if you've checked out my site. Absolutely nothing to
do with this thread but I felt like asking, and this was the nearest
thread:)
--
Kyle
AIM: KyleJK82
WWW: The Imperial Navy Yard
<http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/ImperialNavyYard/>
I'm not anti-math, I'm anti-thinking. -Lord Edam
Graeme Dice
So you're saying that the Empire had less than one combat capable picket
ship per planet? Even the Federation, which is hardly a warmongering
society, manages far better than that.
Graeme Dice
--
"I don't know how the third world war will be fought, but I do
know that the fourth one will be fought with sticks and
stones..." — Einstein.
Dalton
[snip]
> Does the FUQ also include things such as this, or is it purely for
> humour stuff?
Humor only.
--
Rob Dalton
http://daltonator.net
"Who the hell decorated this place? Willy Wonka?"
---Duckman
Commander Thelea
I've stated all the individual cases of evidence that support the
numbers.
They've simply never been combined in official material; But they all
exist, and they are all talking about seperate parts of the fleet.
That is clear enough.
Finally, the simple answer is that the fleets were annihilated in the
fighting between the warlords.
What was left went to the Deep Core.
Where it was used to casually CRUSH the New Republic during Dark
Empire, indicating the power that was still left in this awesome Armada
even after the fighting of the Warlords and the attacks of the Republic!
Even then, the Imperials fought another civil war, too!
And, finally, to top it off, when Palpatine was killed once and for
all, the Warlords went back to fighting.
And that is when the fleets were finally pulverized once and for all.
So, you see, it is indeed supported.
Commander Thelea
I'll provide to you a further revised version of my calculations for
your website, if you wish it.
And yes, I have checked it out.
The shameless plug was appreciated, though!
Spyda
>
> So you're saying that the Empire had less than one combat capable picket
> ship per planet? Even the Federation, which is hardly a warmongering
> society, manages far better than that.
>
> Graeme Dice
That's hardly conclusive, for one thing the Federation only has around 150
worlds, and for another the Empire doesn't need as many ships as planets, I'm
sure you couldn't argue with that.
--
I like it. besies your fat, ur girl friends fatter, and u suck. grow up.
u say that im immature and stupid?
-Weyoun the Dancing Borg
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/spyda
ICQ#: 39921647
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Chris O'Farrell
Graeme Dice <grd...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3A45819B...@sk.sympatico.ca...
> Chris O'Farrell wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > They are good points, but again we never see anything like these numbers
in
> > the Imperial fleet in any other source BAR this one, including the ones
> > after this. Its possible that after this document, production was
somewhat
> > slowed or stopped as there is no other evidence that coribirates with
these
> > numbers
>
> So you're saying that the Empire had less than one combat capable picket
> ship per planet? Even the Federation, which is hardly a warmongering
> society, manages far better than that.
>
Imperial worlds with NO defence force bar some fighters.
Why?
Because thanks to Hyperdrive, they don't NEED to station ships everywhere,
but can call upon them quickly and easily.
Kazuaki Shimazaki
>
> Graeme Dice wrote:
> >
> > So you're saying that the Empire had less than one combat capable picket
> > ship per planet? Even the Federation, which is hardly a warmongering
> > society, manages far better than that.
> >
> > Graeme Dice
>
> That's hardly conclusive, for one thing the Federation only has around 150
> worlds, and for another the Empire doesn't need as many ships as planets, I'm
> sure you couldn't argue with that.
>
> --
> I like it. besies your fat, ur girl friends fatter, and u suck. grow up.
> u say that im immature and stupid?
>
> -Weyoun the Dancing Borg
>
> http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/spyda
> ICQ#: 39921647
choose to reinforce any planet they choose due to hyperdrive, but the
FLIP side is that the enemy can gather up a fleet for a surprise attack
even faster. Without a fleet holding them off, they're screwed.
Kazuaki Shimazaki
First, I believe our friend the Commander pointed out this was a
MAXIMUM.
Second, EVERYONE got hyperdrive in the universe. While ONE Star
Destroyer may be able to wreak havoc on the entire Federation simply
because its hyperdrive is so much faster than Federation warp, when
EVERYONE got similar speeds, the playing field is leveled. You can
reinforce quickly, but the enemy can attack quicker, thus the reason for
defensive fleets, to hold them off until the point-of-the-spear Navy
comes in.
Cmdrwilkens
Commander Thelea <cmdr_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
Well I just figured I'd provide a commentary and counterpoint on some
of the issues generated here, though I think the work is very well
researched I think there are a few points were I can add in.
<snip>
A minimum of 5,000 ships larger than ISDs,
> as based on a 5 ISD escort for the Executor at Hoth.
I know there is a "however" following this but it ignores a few points
were this logic fails slightly. Namely TESB novelezation and ROTJ.
Along with a few other points it is clear that SSDs like the Executor
are accompanied by significantly more vessels ( on the order of 20 ISDs
or more ). Thus the 5 figure might be off by 4 or 5 times with as
little as 1000 command ships in the Fleet.
<snip>
> Finally, there is one last thing to note.
>
> The Empire built the Death Star. An object that, when complete, would
> have massed as much as FIFTY BILLION Galaxy class Starships.
>
> Now, granted, an ISD masses considerably more than a GCS, but not
> REMOTELY enough to make these figures implausible.
>
> Though I haven't yet done it myself, assuming the heavy ships are all
> Executors, the total mass of this fleet is probably LESS than the
> completed Death Star II would have been!!!!
>
> 378,000,000 combat starships and 306,000,000 sublight picket
starships
> is a conservative estimate; It assumes that the average mass of each
of
> those ships is somewhere on the order of seven (7) TIMES the mass of a
> Galaxy Class Starship... If the entire Imperial Warship production
line
> is only comparable to the completed Death Star II!!!!!!
One thing I would like to add here. There is a slight difference
between building combat vessels such as the Executor or Imperator and
building a behemoth such as the Death Star. There are certain
operations: Navigation checks, engine tuning, hyperdrive motivator
checks, crew training, etc. These will all be roughly the same in
length of time for both the DS and for the various sundry vessels. The
problem is that with A Death Star you only have to do it once while a
SD fleet requires repition of time consuming tasks that do not reflect
the MATERIAL processing power of the Empire but rather its PERSONNEL
processing power. Thus the DS is representative of Imperial
construction while the SD fleet is representative of the Imperial
Beauracracy. In other words it takes about as long to train a crew,
test for seaworthiness, and sail out of dock a Carrier as it is a
Destroyer today. The difference is that for the weight of the Carrier
you only have to do these things once while an equivalent number of
Destroyers requires repition (and time) to complete these tasks for
each vessel.
The funny thing is even with an army of huge proportions they have the
presence of the US military in middle america. They are there but only
a small percent are actually military personnel. Right now the US has
approximately 1.5 million active duty service members for a population
of about 280 million. This is a .5% militarization. If the Empire is
even close to similairly militarized then we are talking about a huge
force of active duty (we aren't even talking about reserve yet) service
members that they can draw upon. No wonder they need an entire planet
just to train one branch of one service. No wonder they are so
selective about their officer corps (think Rebel Dawn and the Hutt
Gamble for reference).
>
> Thank you for your time and reading this. It's the latest refinement
> in a long line of refinements on the sheer, staggering scale and scope
> of the Imperial Starfleet.
>
Well done stuff, I hope my comments aren't recieved as negative but I
thought I'd point out one or two things. Thanks.
--
cmdrwilkens
Fleet Admiral, New Republic Fleet, Chief of Naval Operations
New Republic Senator to the League of Ignored Powers and its Ambassador
"Of course, he never saw my responses. But he wouldn't have understood
them anyway. They contained long words that were probably beyond his
comprehension, such as "systems" and "diameter""
-Mike Wong
Cmdrwilkens
From some of the quotes in Before the Storm it seemed evident that a
standard patrol group was 24 SDs with a larger number of Frigates and
Pocket Cruisers in support. It was also mentioned that it would take at
least 4 SDs to overrun a well developed planet just short of having a
Planetary shield. At this point General Abhat fails to tell us how the
Empire dealt with shielded plantes but it seems obvious that a patrol
group would be required to respond to any attack thus any planet with a
shield would require defenses at least on the order of 1/2 SDs. It was
mentioned that 2 1/2 years after the Emporer's first death there were
at least 2 if not more Destroyers and up guarding three planets near
and including Thyferra and this at a time AFTER the degredation of the
Imperial Fleet had already progressed significantly. Thus it seems
reasonable that most of the planets in the colonies, core, deep core,
and even the Inner Rim would be expected to have significant defenses
of either Heavy Destroyers or picket vessels. Also important worlds
seem to have noticeable defenses that might make up for the average.
Even with the Rebellion seated on Coruscant Thrawn's entire SD fleet is
not enough to engage and defeat the defenses thus core worlds must
posses very strong defenses that should make up for the lack at certain
other worlds (remember that the Ubiqtorate bases, shipyards, etc are
all going to be full of vessels). Again drawing from the Black Fleet
series there is a mention that at least 44 vessels from Imperator to
Executor size are missing from the Black Fleet. In other words the
number of capital ships MISSING from one sector command in almost twice
a WEG sector patrol group of SDs. Just thought I'd toss that out.
--
cmdrwilkens
Fleet Admiral, New Republic Fleet, Chief of Naval Operations
New Republic Senator to the League of Ignored Powers and its Ambassador
"Of course, he never saw my responses. But he wouldn't have understood
them anyway. They contained long words that were probably beyond his
comprehension, such as "systems" and "diameter""
-Mike Wong
Chris O'Farrell
> Hyperdrive levels the playing field, since everyone has it. Fleets can
> choose to reinforce any planet they choose due to hyperdrive, but the
> FLIP side is that the enemy can gather up a fleet for a surprise attack
> even faster. Without a fleet holding them off, they're screwed.
The most major planets that would be a target for attack have a planatery
shield so they don't NEED a fleet. Other planets usualy have a few fighter
squadrons. The rebels almost never commited major capital ships to attack
especialy when you could very well have the better part of an Imperial
sector fleet come screaming in in a few minuites. Look at mon calimari and
Dalas attack upon it. Once the comm signal went out, it took bear minuites
for a rebel fleet to muster and charge in with enough ships to take down 2
Imperial class Destroyers in very short order. You only NEED to buy a few
minuites.
Chris O'Farrell
Commander Thelea <cmdr_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:923oq0$4mb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <_jd16.8498$KY1....@news1.rivrw1.nsw.optushome.com.au>,
> "Chris O'Farrell" <Rogu...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
> > As always its interesting reading.
> > But
>
> There's always a but when you write something, Chris.
Is there any other way between you and me ?? :)
> > As a subnote in the Order of battle section it clearly states that
> this OOB
> > is a 'normal case' OOB and that most of the time the units may be
> > understrength or even may not exist. And a bit later it gives the run
> down
> > on a sector group, which contradicts all of this. It gives 24ISD's per
> > sector and 1026 sectors = 24576 ISD's (more or less equal to the
> 25,000
> > stated).
>
>
> Here's my "But":
>
> You see, the thing, Chris, is that the OOBs are for IMMEDIATELY AFTER
> THE BATTLE OF YAVIN.
>
> ::clears her throat::
>
> Comprehende, now?
>
> If the Death Star II would have been built in about a year, with six
> months of that cutting into the time before Return of the Jedi and the
> Battle of Endor, then you have three and a half years of your full
> wartime manufacturing going towards filling out those OOBs.
Thats assuming they did so. There is no canon or offical proof that they did
so. Supply it and I will concead. However people such as Pelleaon very
specificaly state that the height of the SD fleet reached was 25,000 ISD's.
He is (and other sources)*very* specific of this.
> Based on the amount of material going into the Death Star in six
> months, it should be VERY easy for the full OOBs that I have stated to
> be filled out within 3.5 years.
But there is no proof they did. It SHOULD be easy for the Federation to make
an effective light infantery force with what they can read in books, but
they don't. If you can provide proof for these numbers bar the OOB, I will
listen.
> Remember, the Sourcebook is set immediately after Yavin; My calcs are
> set at the same time as Endor, or possibly 6 months before Endor.
Ok its late but I am confused. You draw almost all of this information from
the book published a bit after yavin then say your calcs are just before
Endor??????
> Quite simply, you'd have a point if they were based on the fleet
> immediately after Yavin.
>
> 3.5 years later, however, considering half of a Death Star II built in
> six months.... The equivlant of 25 billion Galaxy Class Starships in
> six months... 175 billion in 3.5 years...
>
> Well, you see what I'm getting at.
I do but its a flawed point.
> Those 3.5 years EASILY allow the Empire to build up from the levels
> you stated to the levels in my Imperial Fleet Calculations, hence
> negating your arguement.
They MIGHT allow it, but unless you have proof they did, I am NOT going to
accept a pure theory on Imperial fleet calcs when many other sources point
to a far far lower number.
Kazuaki Shimazaki
> Is there any other way between you and me ?? :)
>
> > > As a subnote in the Order of battle section it clearly states that
> > this OOB
> > > is a 'normal case' OOB and that most of the time the units may be
> > > understrength or even may not exist. And a bit later it gives the run
> > down
> > > on a sector group, which contradicts all of this. It gives 24ISD's per
> > > sector and 1026 sectors = 24576 ISD's (more or less equal to the
> > 25,000
> > > stated).
the Sector? That could be an equally valid statement. If you don't know
what an "Operational Manuever Group" is, it is a Soviet concept,
fundamentally a reserve picked for its rapid responses and manuevering
capabilities to take advantage of enemy weaknesses or to reinforce weak
spots in the line. Usually, in the Soviet system, a Tank Division takes
up this role in an Army. In the Imperial system, probably the Imperator
Star Destroyers take up this role.
> >
> > Here's my "But":
> >
> > You see, the thing, Chris, is that the OOBs are for IMMEDIATELY AFTER
> > THE BATTLE OF YAVIN.
> >
> > ::clears her throat::
> >
> > Comprehende, now?
> >
> > If the Death Star II would have been built in about a year, with six
> > months of that cutting into the time before Return of the Jedi and the
> > Battle of Endor, then you have three and a half years of your full
> > wartime manufacturing going towards filling out those OOBs.
>
> Thats assuming they did so. There is no canon or offical proof that they did
> so. Supply it and I will concead. However people such as Pelleaon very
> specificaly state that the height of the SD fleet reached was 25,000 ISD's.
> He is (and other sources)*very* specific of this.
quotes with me. We don't get all the SW literature that people in
America do... COULD the message have been taken to imply that the SD
fleet in the NAVY reached 25,000?
> > Based on the amount of material going into the Death Star in six
> > months, it should be VERY easy for the full OOBs that I have stated to
> > be filled out within 3.5 years.
>
> But there is no proof they did. It SHOULD be easy for the Federation to make
> an effective light infantery force with what they can read in books, but
> they don't. If you can provide proof for these numbers bar the OOB, I will
> listen.
She proved that the Empire had the necessary industrial resources to
build the fleet she thinks would show up. And unlike the Federation, the
Empire is AT WAR.
> > Remember, the Sourcebook is set immediately after Yavin; My calcs are
> > set at the same time as Endor, or possibly 6 months before Endor.
>
> Ok its late but I am confused. You draw almost all of this information from
> the book published a bit after yavin then say your calcs are just before
> Endor??????
>
> > Quite simply, you'd have a point if they were based on the fleet
> > immediately after Yavin.
> >
> > 3.5 years later, however, considering half of a Death Star II built in
> > six months.... The equivlant of 25 billion Galaxy Class Starships in
> > six months... 175 billion in 3.5 years...
> >
> > Well, you see what I'm getting at.
>
> I do but its a flawed point.
The Commander is computing a "lead-intercept solution" using the last
known "range, course and speed" for the Empire's fleet production
capabilities and fired a spread of torpedoes meant to intercept at Endor
to 6 months before Endor. When real life submariners fire TORPEDOES,
they do not require themselves to know EXACTLY where the target would
be. Nor do they shoot straight against a moving target, which is what
you're suggesting in a way. They PREDICT where the target would be based
on last known information (which is immediately after Yavin in this
case), extrapolate (that's what the Commander's doing) and come up with
a firing solution (the 378,000,000 hyperspace capable ship conclusion)
and an intercept point (somewhere between 0-6 months before Yavin), then
they open fire.
> > Those 3.5 years EASILY allow the Empire to build up from the levels
> > you stated to the levels in my Imperial Fleet Calculations, hence
> > negating your arguement.
>
> They MIGHT allow it, but unless you have proof they did, I am NOT going to
> accept a pure theory on Imperial fleet calcs when many other sources point
> to a far far lower number.
One more time, this person ADMITS it was a maximum. And she provided
some evidence that it is at least theoretically achievable. By admitting
it was a MAXIMUM, the Commander allowed for the possibility that it
could be lower.
Your choice of the word THEORY means that you believe that there is some
validity in this statement. If you really didn't believe it, use the
word "hypothesis"...
Commander Thelea
>
> The most major planets that would be a target for attack have a
planatery
> shield so they don't NEED a fleet. Other planets usualy have a few
fighter
> squadrons. The rebels almost never commited major capital ships to
attack
> especialy when you could very well have the better part of an Imperial
> sector fleet come screaming in in a few minuites. Look at mon
calimari and
> Dalas attack upon it. Once the comm signal went out, it took bear
minuites
> for a rebel fleet to muster and charge in with enough ships to take
down 2
> Imperial class Destroyers in very short order. You only NEED to buy a
few
> minuites.
>
The planets you refer to, in most cases, are uninhabited bases serving
only as Imperial Recon Stations, military bases, etc.
Also, remember that the Rebels were GREAT with SIGINT. They could
easily draw off two Carrack Cruisers and four Corvettes, which is what
we're giving each of the 50 million minor planets, and ambush them with
a Cruiser somewhere, allowing the raid to go forth only against
Starfight opposition.
Do you think Rogue Squadron succeeds all the time because they're
Ubermenschen or something?
Hell no; They just use something called tactics, which the average
writer in Star Wars doesn't know about, and except for KJA, has the
sense to therefore leave the details up for speculation and concentrate
on the Story he has planned, Chris.
It's up for us to see how the things work; See my post explaining what
can be gleaned, especially thanks to A New Hope, on the function of the
Imperial Government and how it relates to the Starfleet.
Commander Thelea
>
> Thats assuming they did so. There is no canon or offical proof that
>they did
> so. Supply it and I will concead. However people such as Pelleaon very
> specificaly state that the height of the SD fleet reached was 25,000
>ISD's.
> He is (and other sources)*very* specific of this.
Pellaeon was a navy man.
Only 25,000 ISDs were in the Starfleet.
I would like to point out that it is historical fact that over TWELVE
THOUSAND ships were under the control of the United States ARMY during
World War Two.... More than the Navy!!
Though a Navy man would know those ships to exist, he would not
consider them part of the Navy.
Pellaeon's statements are regarding the Imperial Navy.
The Imperial Starfleet is a totally different entity; It consists of
the ships under the control of the various Grand Moffs, Moffs, and
Planetary Governors.
Consider this: The Duke of Lancaster, under English Law, can still
legally raise an army!
If he purchased a dozen old Russian ASW frigates and put them into
service, would they be considered part of the Royal Navy?
Absolutely not.
However, the Duke of Lancaster still takes orders from the Queen and
Parliament.
Hence, a Grand Moff can control a fleet that is totally seperate from
the Imperial Navy, and receive orders from the Emperor and the Imperial
Senate and everything is just fine.
Case in point: The Black Sword Fleet.
Why is it called The Black Sword Fleet as opposed to part of the
Imperial Navy?
Could it be because it was the personal fleet of a Grand Moff who
ruled his oversector by the authority of Emperor Palpatine but had a
fleet under his own control that he could name?
That is not unreasonable at all.
The Historical Precedent is there.
In the Imperial System, there are rarely "Nobility". That exists in
the Royal System.
Hence, the Grand Moff, a position roughly similiar to Proconsul in the
Roman Empire, would be effectively like a Duke; But still serving under
allegiance to the Emperor, who's position is the analogue of the
Caesar, or quite literally "Imperium maius quam proconsulare".
Obviously, Grand Moff Tarkin had the IMMENSE power that could be
wielded by a Roman Provincial Governor with the title of Imperium
(Which, during the Republic, allowed them to command armies.)
He had complete control of the Death Star and the Death Star Project,
and, indeed, the resources at his disposal and his control over the
project were so complete that it was effectively a project of the
Oversector which Grand Moff Tarkin ruled and not the Empire as a whole!
If you read the ANH novelization and you study a bit of the history of
the Roman Empire, you can quickly realize that Grand Moff Tarkin was
not simply some administrator.
He was an Emperor under an Emperor; A lesser Imperial Power.
He answered only to the Emperor, and that is powerful.
It's also the only way for one man, IE, the Emperor, to rule 51
million planets!
Even with his force abilities, he could not possibly be the absolute
dictator of such a vast Empire.
Instead, he is the absolute dictator of the Grand Moffs and Moffs, who
in turn are the absolute dictators of the Planetary Governors under
them.
Indeed, this is actually STATED in A New Hope.
One of the Officers at Grand Moff Tarkin's meeting asks him how the
Emperor will be able to control the Empire without the Senate when
Tarkin announces that the Senate has been disbanded for "The duration
of the emergency."
Tarkin replies that the Regional and Sector governors will rule the
populace by fear of force, or something to that effect; I don't have
the exact quote.
I would ask that someone provide it for me.
Anyway, you may remember it as it is.
Needless to say, this indicates that the Grand Moffs and Moffs can
summon force at will.
They have their own militaries; Though, as noted in the Imperial
Sourcebook, they can be recalled by the Emperor's personal order to
serve in another area.
Only Imperial Diktat, however, can override the orders given to those
fleets; They're the Fleets of the Moffs and Grand Moffs in question.
This is identical in the Roman Empire; A person with the title of
Imperium who was a Provincial Governor could still have his Legions
recalled at the order of Caesar Augustus.
And hence, Pellaeon is clearly referring to the actual Imperial Navy,
the force under the direct command of the Emperor and his Grand
Admirals, as opposed to the Grand Moffs and Moffs and the military
commanders under them.
The Imperial Starfleet in this case is simply an umbrella title
referring to all warships within the Galactic Empire which can be
recalled by Imperial Decree.
This also explains where the ships went. When a Dictator who is
Dictating to a group of Dictators dies, that group of Dictators is
going to start fighting for the throne.
>
> > Based on the amount of material going into the Death Star in six
> > months, it should be VERY easy for the full OOBs that I have stated
to
> > be filled out within 3.5 years.
>
> But there is no proof they did. It SHOULD be easy for the Federation
>to make
> an effective light infantery force with what they can read in books,
>but
> they don't. If you can provide proof for these numbers bar the OOB, I
>will
> listen.
They planned to do it, and they had the capability, and they had an
armed rebellion going on against their government, and for 3.5 years
you're asking me to say they didn't build a single ship except to
replace losses!?
Please.
Anyway, most of the ships are those ships for Planetary Defence under
the Planetary Governors, and aren't counted in with the Sector Fleets
(Roughly 306,000,000 of the 378,000,000 fall in that category), and
hence could have already been built at that time; They receive no
mention.
So, the question is, did the Empire triple the ships in it's sector
fleets in 3.5 years? That would mean, roughly, building 48,000,000
ships.
Even assuming for added complexity, this does not seem beyond the
capabilities of the Empire when one considers the Death Star II, equal
in mass to 50 Billion GCS, half complete in half a year, when they have
seven times as much time in which to build those ships, and the fact
that none of these ships will be larger than a Torpedo Sphere.
>
> > Remember, the Sourcebook is set immediately after Yavin; My calcs
are
> > set at the same time as Endor, or possibly 6 months before Endor.
>
> Ok its late but I am confused. You draw almost all of this
>information from
> the book published a bit after yavin then say your calcs are just
>before
> Endor??????
Not ALL of the my information comes from that book.
A fair bit comes from other sources; However, we can extrapolate
things from that book, since we KNOW the capability of the Empire when
it comes to manufacturing.
>
> > Quite simply, you'd have a point if they were based on the fleet
> > immediately after Yavin.
> >
> > 3.5 years later, however, considering half of a Death Star II
built in
> > six months.... The equivlant of 25 billion Galaxy Class Starships in
> > six months... 175 billion in 3.5 years...
> >
> > Well, you see what I'm getting at.
>
> I do but its a flawed point.
>
> > Those 3.5 years EASILY allow the Empire to build up from the levels
> > you stated to the levels in my Imperial Fleet Calculations, hence
> > negating your arguement.
>
> They MIGHT allow it, but unless you have proof they did, I am NOT
>going to
> accept a pure theory on Imperial fleet calcs when many other sources
>point
> to a far far lower number.
They point to a far, far lower number ONLY for the Navy!
What I am saying is that there are numerous navies in the Empire, all
part of the STARFLEET, with only one being under the direct control of
the Emperor, which would be the Imperial Navy which is constantly
referenced to.
The others are under the control of the Grand Moffs and Moffs, and can
only be recalled from that control by direct Imperial Decree.
The problem, Chris, is that you're thinking in the wrong perspective.
You're thinking I'm claiming all these ships are in the Imperial Navy.
I'm not.
I'm saying they're all Imperial Ships; But the VAST MAJORITY are NOT
in the Imperial Navy.
They are under the control of the Grand Moffs and Moffs and subject
only to recall by direct Imperial Decree.
The Imperial military and Imperial Government do NOT function by
modern standards; That has been made quite clear.
They Function via standards VERY similiar to those of the ancient
Roman Empire.
Phong Nguyen
>
>
> ((Rob, if you'd please, replace the ones on the Fanfic archive with
>this updated version of the Imperial Fleet Calcs.))
>
Quite excellent work as usual :)
I realise you're busy, though, but have you ever considered doing
calculations for the Imperial Remnant & New Republic fleets immediately
before the Vong invasion?
Graeme Dice
>
> Graeme Dice wrote:
> >
> > So you're saying that the Empire had less than one combat capable picket
> > ship per planet? Even the Federation, which is hardly a warmongering
> > society, manages far better than that.
> >
> > Graeme Dice
>
> That's hardly conclusive, for one thing the Federation only has around 150
> worlds, and for another the Empire doesn't need as many ships as planets, I'm
> sure you couldn't argue with that.
>
The Federation has something like a maximum of 533 ships per planet, and
you are trying to tell me that the Empire can barely manage a single
ship? When the Empire has such a tremendous construction capability
advantage?
--
"The Earth is the cradle of Humanity. But one doesn't always live
in the cradle." — Konstantin Tsiokolvsky.
Spyda
>
> The Federation has something like a maximum of 533 ships per planet, and
> you are trying to tell me that the Empire can barely manage a single
> ship? When the Empire has such a tremendous construction capability
> advantage?
Ships per planet isn't a good way to measure military strength. The Empire
uses a completely different tactics set. Official sources say that they have
the mainstay of their fleet huddled just outside core systems, and just jump
them to the appropriate areas whenever there is a problem, that isn't
contradicted by any of the movies, and it makes sense when you consider the
speed of hyperdrive, when in a few minutes you can have 1000 ships plus in a
single system.
Having less than one ship per planet is perfectly acceptable and doesn't hurt
you guys in any way shape or form, because there is pretty much a fuckload of
planets.
Transcend
Spyda <m.j.w.r...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> Graeme Dice wrote:
> >
> > The Federation has something like a maximum of 533 ships per planet,
and
> > you are trying to tell me that the Empire can barely manage a single
> > ship? When the Empire has such a tremendous construction capability
> > advantage?
>
> Ships per planet isn't a good way to measure military strength. The
Empire
> uses a completely different tactics set. Official sources say that
they have
> the mainstay of their fleet huddled just outside core systems, and
just jump
> them to the appropriate areas whenever there is a problem, that isn't
> contradicted by any of the movies, and it makes sense when you
consider the
> speed of hyperdrive, when in a few minutes you can have 1000 ships
plus in a
> single system.
>
> Having less than one ship per planet is perfectly acceptable and
doesn't hurt
> you guys in any way shape or form, because there is pretty much a
fuckload of
> planets.
>
Do you remember the Hand of Thrawn duology? They were off looking for
some guy and they ended up on a piss poor mid-rim world, and even THEY
had a small space defense force. A piss poor one but they had a few
ships. True this is much later, after the Empire fell but it's still
telling.
A CORPORATION (Corporate Sector) owns 200 VSDS and several ships that
could only be classified as old cruisers or battlecruisers.
We've even seen pirate gangs with several major (although OLD) capships
and and hundreds of smaller ships.
ONE planet, one single planet in the Corellian Trilogy managed to get
their hands on hundreds of warships. And it wasn't even an IMPORTANT
planet, but a minor world.
I think we can safely assume there's at LEAST one small capship for
every planet in the SW galaxy.
--
"If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught
and shot now" --Zaphod Beeblebrox
Kynes
Wow, Thelea. When I first saw these calculations I was surprised no one said
anything, and I thought there'd be a similar reaction this time... and, hey,
I confess, even I was a little skeptical.
But the more I read your posts on this, the more I'm convinced that you're
right; I think what's starting to seal it for me is just the uncontradicted
statement that the Empire *COULD* build this many ships, easily, given the
rate they constructed the DS/DS2.
Cool. :)
LK
Kazuaki Shimazaki
>
> Graeme Dice wrote:
> >
> > The Federation has something like a maximum of 533 ships per planet, and
> > you are trying to tell me that the Empire can barely manage a single
> > ship? When the Empire has such a tremendous construction capability
> > advantage?
>
> Ships per planet isn't a good way to measure military strength. The Empire
> uses a completely different tactics set. Official sources say that they have
> the mainstay of their fleet huddled just outside core systems, and just jump
> them to the appropriate areas whenever there is a problem, that isn't
> contradicted by any of the movies, and it makes sense when you consider the
> speed of hyperdrive, when in a few minutes you can have 1000 ships plus in a
> single system.
device to gather TWO THOUSAND ships in the same time period for an
attack, for instance. And if you start with zero ships, and we assume
that the closest warship is 130 light years away, not all that far in a
Galactic power. Guess what, depending on the exact conditions, it takes
one HOUR for the warship to come and help. One hour, enough to do a BDZ,
even if IXJac turns out to be right and it only involves killing all the
cities.
> Having less than one ship per planet is perfectly acceptable and doesn't hurt
> you guys in any way shape or form, because there is pretty much a fuckload of
> planets.
>
Spyda
>
> Spyda wrote:
> It is NOT a good idea when you consider that the enemy got a similar
> device to gather TWO THOUSAND ships in the same time period for an
> attack, for instance. And if you start with zero ships, and we assume
> that the closest warship is 130 light years away, not all that far in a
> Galactic power. Guess what, depending on the exact conditions, it takes
> one HOUR for the warship to come and help. One hour, enough to do a BDZ,
> even if IXJac turns out to be right and it only involves killing all the
> cities.
Slight flaw in your plan, the rebels don't have 2,000 cap ships :)
--
Crayz9000
news:925ut1$j2e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Ah yes. The Trade Federation comes to mind here.
> We've even seen pirate gangs with several major (although OLD) capships
> and and hundreds of smaller ships.
>
> ONE planet, one single planet in the Corellian Trilogy managed to get
> their hands on hundreds of warships. And it wasn't even an IMPORTANT
> planet, but a minor world.
Umm... it was actually several planets of the Corellian Sector.
> I think we can safely assume there's at LEAST one small capship for
> every planet in the SW galaxy.
Mostly Corellian Corvettes... :)
--
Crayz9000 AKA
Cybernetic Crow
mhm28x12
Web Site: http://crayz9000.htmlplanet.com
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.
Kazuaki Shimazaki
I'm sure TACTICS had something to do with it, but I still do feel that
sometimes Rogue Squadron gets it too easy. In ANH, out of 30 fighters
that struck, there weren't all that many fighters chasing them (only
those under Darth Vader's command) and only about FOUR at the most
didn't get blown up in the end, and had the MF not intervened, Luke
would probably have been busted for all his apprentice-Force
capabilities. By the time of X-Wing, Rogue Squadron stuff, they don't
take a tenth of the casualties they did in ANH. You can say they got
better, but enough to beat 10:1 odds consistently and reduce their
attrition rate by over 90%? I doubt it.
Stellan Rasmusson
> sometimes Rogue Squadron gets it too easy.
No shit! :-)
I mean, just read the X-wing series. It's really quite ridiculous - once,
they take out over thirty TIEs with no losses.
> In ANH, out of 30 fighters
> that struck, there weren't all that many fighters chasing them (only
> those under Darth Vader's command) and only about FOUR at the most
> didn't get blown up in the end, and had the MF not intervened, Luke
> would probably have been busted for all his apprentice-Force
> capabilities.
Based on what we see at the end of ANH, at least three rebel fighters
survived (Luke, Wedge and a Y-wing).
> By the time of X-Wing, Rogue Squadron stuff, they don't
> take a tenth of the casualties they did in ANH. You can say they got
> better, but enough to beat 10:1 odds consistently and reduce their
> attrition rate by over 90%? I doubt it.
Well, there were thousands of ground-based turbolasers firing at the rebels
in ANH. We saw at least one
rebel ship get hit by turbolaser fire, and it's probable that more fighters
than this one were destroyed
by AAA.
But I agree - Rogue Squadron gets it too easy.. And that's why ANH is
thrilling and
exciting and one of the greatest movie classics of all time, while the
X-wing series is just mediocre fanfiction. :-)
I don't know about you, but I've read the first four books in the X-wing
series (Rogue Squadron, Wedge's Gamble,
The Krytos Trap, The Bacta War) and I only liked the first book. Which only
lasted until I re-read it - then I started
to dislike that one too. Not only do I hate Corran Horn, but there's
something abysmally wrong with
things like the rebels killing off forty TIE fighters and their pilots,
without the slightest bit of remorse. Then, when
the Imperials kill _one_ of the pilots of Rogue Squadron, they go all
hateful because the Empire "murdered"
one of them. Talk about hypocrisy.
And, oh, I hope I don't even have to mention things like humans having sex
with aliens. That's just too disgusting.
-Rolex
Graeme Dice
<snip>
> I'm sure TACTICS had something to do with it, but I still do feel that
> sometimes Rogue Squadron gets it too easy. In ANH, out of 30 fighters
> that struck, there weren't all that many fighters chasing them (only
> those under Darth Vader's command) and only about FOUR at the most
> didn't get blown up in the end, and had the MF not intervened, Luke
> would probably have been busted for all his apprentice-Force
> capabilities. By the time of X-Wing, Rogue Squadron stuff, they don't
> take a tenth of the casualties they did in ANH. You can say they got
> better, but enough to beat 10:1 odds consistently and reduce their
> attrition rate by over 90%? I doubt it.
The games have you regularly beat off nine to one odds (Three to one
actually, but you wingmen are idiots, so nine to one), so that's where
this comes from.
Graeme Dice
--
An old friend will help you move. A good friend will help
you move a dead body.
-- Jim Haye