Italian Futurists
Jim Humphreys
Does anyone know of a recording of Italian Futurist
music, particularly Russolo? I did hear that one was issued
a couple of years ago , but have been unable to track it
down.
Jim Humphreys
dzander
years ago. The one from a number of years ago came out on the "SubRosa"
label called "futurism and dada reviewed" which had a couple of tracks
by both Luigi Russolo and Antonio Russolo. Then Marthanne Verbit played
piano pieces by Cyril Scott and Leo Ornstein on an "ALBANY" / "TROY" cd
which they called "Past Futurists" - but I don't exactly know why they
chose that title. I would be interested to hear some more of the real
stuff. dza...@umd5.umd.edu
Przemyslaw Powalko
Jim Humphreys wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of a recording of Italian Futurist
> music, particularly Russolo? I did hear that one was issued
> a couple of years ago , but have been unable to track it
> down.
>
Hi.
I heard it had been released by SUBROSA (spell?) from Italia but
I'm not sure. Mention about your success, ok? I'm very interesting in
Italian Futurist music very very much!
Best
Przemek Powalko, Poland
Jett T. Hitt
Wouldn't a recording of Italian Futurists' music sort of be missing the
point? If you really want one, take a recorder down to any busy street in
any major city, turn it on, and shut it off when you've heard enough. Then
you'll have your very own Italian Futurist recording.
Jett
Mr M.R. Gibbs
Jett T. Hitt (jett....@unforgettable.com) wrote:
: Wouldn't a recording of Italian Futurists' music sort of be missing the
: Jett
Firstly, I didn't know there were any recordings of the original music
(i.e. those made on Rusolo's instruments) available. Moreover, the plans
of the unusual instraments are also lost. There is one guy still alive who
heard the original concerts (described them as 'farting and burping' sounds)
I have more information on this, just not on me now.
Secondly. Italian futuism, althouh based on mechanical sounds ("the music
of the machhine gun fire and the Ford car factory") , it was never aleatoric.
The sounds were perfectly planned in advance on very specific, home-made,
instruments. i.e. not equivelant to the very Cage like avant-garde of
walking out into the street and recording the random man-made sounds described
above.
Iain Fisher
Jim Humphreys <jimh...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote in article
<3319BA...@netcomuk.co.uk>...
> Does anyone know of a recording of Italian Futurist
> music, particularly Russolo? I did hear that one was issued
> a couple of years ago , but have been unable to track it
> down.
>
from 16 oct 75. Tracks by Russolo are Bruiteurs I and II, Interpenetration
bleue en verte, Schisme, Bruiteurs II, Machines+Vitesse, Etats d'ame.
A French record so I don't know original titles. Label is
Philips/Phonogram PG 321. Issued 1980. I bought it in Paris.
Also in an exhibition of Futurism (mainly paintings) in Edinburgh they
played recordings of music from the original instruments (or maybe
reproductions of instruments). This was more than 20 years ago!!!
A modern unexpected (and uncredited) version of Russolo is by the Beatles.
Its Revolution Number 9 from the White Album. Its actually John and Yoko
rather than the Beatles. The 9 refers to Beethoven's 9th.
Iain
Piero Cavina
Jim Humphreys <jimh...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
> Does anyone know of a recording of Italian Futurist
> music, particularly Russolo? I did hear that one was issued
> a couple of years ago , but have been unable to track it
> down.
There's a Sub Rosa CD, but you might want to consider this:
VV.AA. "Musica futurista" (2CD) CRAMPS CRSCD046-47
Cramps is an old Italian label with a great catalogue of avangarde and
progressive music.
This is the email address of an Italian dealer who should sell this CD:
MEGATALOGO - megat...@tamnet.it
Ciao,
P.
Lars Brusletto Sveen
p.ca...@mo.nettuno.it (Piero Cavina) wrote:
> Jim Humphreys <jimh...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know of a recording of Italian Futurist
>> music, particularly Russolo? I did hear that one was issued
>> a couple of years ago , but have been unable to track it
>> down.
>
> There's a Sub Rosa CD, but you might want to consider this:
>
> VV.AA. "Musica futurista" (2CD) CRAMPS CRSCD046-47
The Sub Rosa record mentioned here is called "Futurism and Dada
Reviewed" (released c. 1991/2) and is well worth investigating.
It shouldn't be too hard to find -- I bought my copy at HMV in
London a few years ago.
The CD contains the two sides of a 78 made in the 1920's by
Luigi Russolos's brother Antonio, which is claimed to be the
only surviving authentic recording of Russolo's instruments.
There's also a modern rendering of Luigi's "Risveglia d'una
città [sp?]" on reconstructions. In addition there are
original recordings of among others Marinetti, Tzara, Cocteau
and even Kurt Schwitters reciting parts of his famous
Urlaut-sonata in a silly voice.
--
Lars B Sveen
(l.b....@dnmi.no)
Herb Levy
In article <1997031121...@cvnp06k1.mo.nettuno.it>,
p.ca...@mo.nettuno.it (Piero Cavina) wrote:
> Jim Humphreys <jimh...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Does anyone know of a recording of Italian Futurist
> > music, particularly Russolo? I did hear that one was issued
> > a couple of years ago , but have been unable to track it
> > down.
>
> There's a Sub Rosa CD, but you might want to consider this:
>
> VV.AA. "Musica futurista" (2CD) CRAMPS CRSCD046-47
>
> Cramps is an old Italian label with a great catalogue of avangarde and
> progressive music.
> This is the email address of an Italian dealer who should sell this CD:
>
> MEGATALOGO - megat...@tamnet.it
Folks can get find this and other related recordings at:
Anomalous Records
1402 E. Pike St., Seattle, WA 98122-4148, USA
telephone: (206) 328-9339 fax: (206) 328-9408
<ano...@wolfenet.com>
<http://www.wolfenet.com/~anomaly/>
They're local for me. I don't know what they're shipping costs are, but
the prices are usually very good even for very hard to find discs.
Bests
--
Herb Levy
he...@eskimo.com
Robert Davidson
Iain Fisher wrote:
> A modern unexpected (and uncredited) version of Russolo is by the Beatles.
> Its Revolution Number 9 from the White Album. Its actually John and Yoko
> rather than the Beatles. The 9 refers to Beethoven's 9th.
>
> Iain
Could you please elaborate regarding Revolution no. 9, Iain? How is it a
version of Russolo, and how is it in reference to Beethoven's 9th? I'm
curious.
Robert Davidson
Iain Fisher
Robert Davidson <s03...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote in article
<33288C...@student.uq.edu.au>...
The Beatles piece Revolution no 9 is at times identical to a Russolo piece
(from the LP I mentioned in my previous posting). Its the musical
"backing" rather than the spoken foreground in the Beatles song.
When I read elsewhere about the Russolo piece, it said that the piece was
based on Beethoven 9. I can't see the similarity myself, however the link
does explain the Beatles/John and Yoko title (the repetition "number 9" in
the Beatles work is not in the Russolo original).
Does this explain it?
Iain
Torc
Iain Fisher (fis...@qolor.nl) wrote:
: Robert Davidson <s03...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote in article
: Does this explain it?
: Iain
Hmm, I've done a lot of reading on Revolution 9 (and a lot of listening)
and I've never before heard it mentioned in relation to Russolo or to
Beethoven. More than likely the influence for Revolution 9 is from
Stockhausen, (who also appears on the Sgt. Pepper cover), specifically
from Gesang der Jungling (which I never spell correctly). '9' was just
Lennon's favorite number, and he used it quite often (Revolution 9, No. 9
Dream). Someone over on rec.music.beatles could probably offer more
insight to many ways Lennon viewed the number 9 as personally significant.
--Torc.
William Harrison
>Hmm, I've done a lot of reading on Revolution 9 (and a lot of listening)
>and I've never before heard it mentioned in relation to Russolo or to
>Beethoven. More than likely the influence for Revolution 9 is from
>Stockhausen, (who also appears on the Sgt. Pepper cover), specifically
>from Gesang der Jungling (which I never spell correctly). '9' was just
>Lennon's favorite number, and he used it quite often (Revolution 9, No. 9
>Dream). Someone over on rec.music.beatles could probably offer more
>insight to many ways Lennon viewed the number 9 as personally significant.
>
>--Torc.
I certainly concur with the Stockhausen theory. But I thought that it
was Telemusic or Hymnen that influenced the Beatles to compose
Revolution 9. Or was it the other was around??? ;=)
Bill
Iain Fisher
Torc <to...@netcom.com> wrote in article <torcE70...@netcom.com>...
> Hmm, I've done a lot of reading on Revolution 9 (and a lot of listening)
> and I've never before heard it mentioned in relation to Russolo or to
> Beethoven. More than likely the influence for Revolution 9 is from
> Stockhausen, (who also appears on the Sgt. Pepper cover), specifically
> from Gesang der Jungling (which I never spell correctly). '9' was just
> Lennon's favorite number, and he used it quite often (Revolution 9, No. 9
> Dream). Someone over on rec.music.beatles could probably offer more
> insight to many ways Lennon viewed the number 9 as personally
significant.
>
> --Torc.
>
However the John/Yoko music is identical with the Russolo piece. There is
an exhibition of Yoko's art work in London right now (Royal Festival Hall)
and her range of influences is very wide.
The Russolo piece is (according to what I've read) based on Beethove number
9.
Best wishes
Iain
Jonathan Kandell
On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Torc wrote:
> : The Beatles piece Revolution no 9 is at times identical to a Russolo piece
> [snip]
>
> More than likely the influence for Revolution 9 is from
> Stockhausen, (who also appears on the Sgt. Pepper cover), specifically
> from Gesang der Jungling (which I never spell correctly). '9' was just
> Lennon's favorite number, and he used it quite often (Revolution 9, No. 9
> Dream). Someone over on rec.music.beatles could probably offer more
> insight to many ways Lennon viewed the number 9 as personally significant.
I agree about the Stockhausen part, but not Gesang der Junglinge. I think
it's a rip off of Hymnen I. My first thought on hearing Hymnen is "so
that's where Lenon got it from...." Not just the overall pastiche sound,
but there's one point where Stockhausen and his assistant say "nine" in a
variety of languages.
jk
Robert Davidson
Iain Fisher wrote:
>
> Torc <to...@netcom.com> wrote in article <torcE70...@netcom.com>...
> > Hmm, I've done a lot of reading on Revolution 9 (and a lot of listening)
> > and I've never before heard it mentioned in relation to Russolo or to
> > Stockhausen, (who also appears on the Sgt. Pepper cover), specifically
> > from Gesang der Jungling (which I never spell correctly). '9' was just
> > Lennon's favorite number, and he used it quite often (Revolution 9, No. 9
>
> > Dream). Someone over on rec.music.beatles could probably offer more
> > insight to many ways Lennon viewed the number 9 as personally
> significant.
> >
> >
>
> However the John/Yoko music is identical with the Russolo piece. There is
> an exhibition of Yoko's art work in London right now (Royal Festival Hall)
> and her range of influences is very wide.
>
> The Russolo piece is (according to what I've read) based on Beethove number
> 9.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Iain
This is certainly new to me, and very interesting. I was always under
the impression that Rev. no 9 (which I find excellent) was influenced by
Telemusik, Fontana Mix by Cage and by early minimalism. Of course Yoko
knew Cage, LaMonte, Terry Riley, Tony Conrad et al, so all that was in
the air. But if what you say is true, that it's actually identical in
parts to the Russolo, that is a very interesting bit of info.
Robert Davidson
Larry Solomon
Exactly how is "Revolution No. 9" equivalent to Russolo? Which Russolo?
(Which work by him?) Are you referring to a particular score or a
recording? How do you compare a scored work with one that has no score?
Or does Rev.9 have a score (I doubt it).
All this reminds me of the question of where the identity of a musical
work lies. See: Roman Ingarden's *The Work of Music and the Problem of
Its Identity*, 1986.
--
Best!
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Larry Solomon
The Center for the Arts http://www.AzStarNet.com/~solo
Tucson, AZ
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Iain Fisher
Larry Solomon <So...@AzStarNet.com> wrote in article
<332D0A...@AzStarNet.com>...
> Exactly how is "Revolution No. 9" equivalent to Russolo? Which Russolo?
> (Which work by him?) Are you referring to a particular score or a
> recording? How do you compare a scored work with one that has no score?
> Or does Rev.9 have a score (I doubt it).
>
I have a Futurist LP with music of Russolo. One of the pieces is almost
identical to the music (i.e. non spoken parts) of Revolution # 9 by the
Beatles (actually John and Yoke and I suspect actually Yoko).
Later reading about the Russolo piece I read it was based on Beethoven # 9
(which I can't actually see but...) however this may explain Beatles/Yoko
title.
The art exhibitions (with some music) in London of Yoko's work shows some
Futurist influence (as well as lots of others).
If you want I'll dig up the specific Russolo track (I listed all the tracks
on a previous mail- its on an LP which is a bit of a hassle in my CD world,
but I can cope.
I like how different worlds collide (Beatles, Futurist) etc etc
Best wishes
Iain
Chris Koenigsberg
Larry Solomon <So...@AzStarNet.com> writes:
> All this reminds me of the question of where the identity of a musical
> work lies. See: Roman Ingarden's *The Work of Music and the Problem of
> Its Identity*, 1986.
> --
Is that a book?
My favorite book on your topic (the identity of musical works) is
Lydia Goehr's "The Imaginary Museum of Musical Works". I've even seen
it in Barnes & Noble in paperback.
--------------------
Chris Koenigsberg: c...@pobox.com, <http://www.pobox.com/~ckk>
Boycott Internet Spam/Junkmail! see <http://www.vix.com/spam/> for help
Iain Fisher
Various people have asked me again about the Russolo Futurist LP and the
Beatles.
The record is:
Pierre Henry, "Futuristie" (note spelling)
Its a recording of a concert on 16 Oct 75 in Grand Theatre de Chaillot
a Paris.
I bought it in Paris about 15 years ago.
Tracks are:
Bruiters I
Interpenetration bleue
Eclatement
Interpenetration verte
Schisme
Bruiteurs II
side 2
Machines + Vitesse
Etats d'ame
Numbers etc: Philips, Polygram: PG321, Stereo 6510020. LP is dated 1980.
Beatles connection is:
- it sounds just like Revolution # 9
- the Russolo track is based on Beethoven # 9 ("dans cette atmosphere
vertigineuse, les utlimes citations de la Neuvieme Symphonie de Beethoven
n'ont elles-memes rien de deplace...")
- Yoke (who I presume was real composer) has a large range of influences
including futurism
Since previous mails I re-listened to LP and discovered:
- when I said music was like background of Beatles piece, I was
underestimating. The background AND voices are like Beatles. Both pieces
sound like versions of each other.
- looking at LP cover notes on back, the cover is a painting by Russolo and
it is called.... yes Revolution (1911/1912 in Collection Musee Municipal de
la Haye, i.e. The Hague Gemeentemusen).
Some people asked if I could tape LP for them. If you E-Mail me with
address I'll do it, assuming numbers remain reasonable (i.e. first 5 only).
Isn't the subject now exhausted? I am.
Iain
Mr M.R. Gibbs
Iain Fisher (fis...@qolor.nl) wrote:
: Robert Davidson <s03...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote in article
: <33288C...@student.uq.edu.au>...
: > Iain Fisher wrote:
: >
: > > A modern unexpected (and uncredited) version of Russolo is by the
: Beatles.
: > > Its Revolution Number 9 from the White Album. Its actually John and
: Yoko
: > > rather than the Beatles. The 9 refers to Beethoven's 9th.
: > >
: > > Iain
: >
: > Could you please elaborate regarding Revolution no. 9, Iain? How is it a
: > version of Russolo, and how is it in reference to Beethoven's 9th? I'm
: > curious.
: >
: > Robert Davidson
: The Beatles piece Revolution no 9 is at times identical to a Russolo piece
: (from the LP I mentioned in my previous posting). Its the musical
: "backing" rather than the spoken foreground in the Beatles song.
: When I read elsewhere about the Russolo piece, it said that the piece was
: based on Beethoven 9. I can't see the similarity myself, however the link
: does explain the Beatles/John and Yoko title (the repetition "number 9" in
: the Beatles work is not in the Russolo original).
: Does this explain it?
: Iain
My theory....
Revoluition No.9 is a musical collage containing many pieces of music,
fragments of speech, and numerous other eclectic nonsences. I propose
that the Russolo piece is one amongst many musical extracts included in
the music.
As for the significance of "Number 9", I don't think there is any.
Other good musical collages include stockhausens Hymnen, and the second
movement of Berio's sinfonia. The Berio piece is one of my all time favorites,
a joy to listen to.
Robert Fink
What is the date of Russolo's piece? (Is the recording in question a 1975
performance of instructions by Russolo? Or a rerelease of an actual
recording, or what?) Revolution #9 has chunks of a recording of the
Sibelius 7th symphony; (not the Beethoven 9th, thank you very much)--does
the Russolo? I'll going to see if I can track down the recording
referenced, but I'm pretty skeptical here. "Number Nine" had some BBC
connection that I can't remember (a track or take number or something...).
rwf
One might want to check Mark Lewisohn, _The Beatles Recording Sessions_ to
see what he said.
rwf
--
"I notice that I am still very hestitant to delve into the nineteenth century. All kinds of things happened in music then that I don't think are good. After Chopin and Mendelssohn, we landed in a mudbath that only got cleaned up with the _Sacre_" -- Louis Andriessen
Iain Fisher
Robert Fink <rf...@frontiernet.net> wrote in article
<rfink-19039...@usr11-221.dial.roc.frontiernet.net>...
> What is the date of Russolo's piece? (Is the recording in question a
1975
> performance of instructions by Russolo? Or a rerelease of an actual
> recording, or what?) Revolution #9 has chunks of a recording of the
> Sibelius 7th symphony; (not the Beethoven 9th, thank you very much)--does
> the Russolo? I'll going to see if I can track down the recording
> referenced, but I'm pretty skeptical here. "Number Nine" had some BBC
> connection that I can't remember (a track or take number or
something...).
>
The Beethoven #9 reference is quoted on the Russolo/Pierre Henry LP. There
are no dates given for the Russolo pieces. The LP is from a concert in
1975, and the record is dated 1980.
Best wishes
Iain
Mr M.R. Gibbs
Hang on, are we talking about the same Russolo. I have a sneaking suspicion
that we are confusing Russolo (who was an Italian Futurist) with Bussoni
(who was contemporary with Russolo, but attempted to revive romanticism in
his music). From what I've read of Russolo, I am more than positive that he
never wrote anything for orchestra. He identified himself as a composer of
the modern age, and wrote music for machines. The orchestra, I'm sure, stood
as a sign of all that Russolo was reacting against, the Austro/Germanic
classical-romantic tradition.
Bussoni on the other hand did write a great deal for the orchestra, and was
very much inspired by archetypal romantic composers such as Beethoven.
Does anybody else agree with me on this one.
Marcus Gibbs.
Larry Solomon (So...@AzStarNet.com) wrote:
: Exactly how is "Revolution No. 9" equivalent to Russolo? Which Russolo?
: (Which work by him?) Are you referring to a particular score or a
: recording? How do you compare a scored work with one that has no score?
: Or does Rev.9 have a score (I doubt it).
: All this reminds me of the question of where the identity of a musical
: work lies. See: Roman Ingarden's *The Work of Music and the Problem of
: Its Identity*, 1986.
: --
: Best!
Iain Fisher
Mr M.R. Gibbs <mr...@liverpool.ac.uk> wrote in article
<E7CA2...@liverpool.ac.uk>...
> Hang on, are we talking about the same Russolo. I have a sneaking
LP says Russolo. And talks about Italian futurism. And has an Italian
Futurist cover (i.e. "Revolution" by Russolo). And has photos of Russolo's
instruments.
On Beethoven 9, I see nothing in Russolo's music (i.e. the Pierre Henry LP)
that compares with it, but it is in the sleeve notes, and I've no reason
not to believe that he was inspired by B9.
On the original topic (Futurist music, rather than Beatles/Yoko), I highly
recommend Pierre Henry's LP of Russolo's music. If it is available, its
worth trying to get it/listen to it.
Can I open up the discussion? Anyone know anything else by Pierre Henry?
I'd be interested.
Iain
Jeremy T
So then in message
<rfink-19039...@usr11-221.dial.roc.frontiernet.net>,
rf...@frontiernet.net (Robert Fink) had the following to say :
>Revolution #9 has chunks of a recording of the
>Sibelius 7th symphony; (not the Beethoven 9th, thank you very much)--does
>the Russolo? I'll going to see if I can track down the recording
>referenced, but I'm pretty skeptical here. "Number Nine" had some BBC
>connection that I can't remember (a track or take number or something...).
There's a lot on Revolution 9 in the very excellent _ Revolution in
the Head: The Beatles' Records and the Sixties_ by Ian Macdonald.
which includes: "the looped annnouncement 'number nine', [was] taken
from examination tapes for the Royal Academy of Music once stored at
Abbey Road."
My theory: a Lennon oblique reference to the Coaster's Love Potion #9.
>One might want to check Mark Lewisohn, _The Beatles Recording Sessions_ to
>see what he said.
according to Macdonald, Lewisohn, who heard the original four-track
tape, analysed the main elements as a backwards Mellotron, part of the
orchestral overdub for A Day in the Life, and 'miscellaneous
symphonies and operas'. Macdonald adds that one of the latter is a
loop of the last chord of Sibelius' Seventh Symphony which occurs
several times between 2:13 and 5:53. Lennon then mixed in the
amputated final six minutes of Revolution 1.
Macdonald does suggest that Lennon may have been influenced by
Stockhausen's 1967 collage Hymnen. Maybe. What is indisputable is that
that Lennon was also very influenced by the varieties and quantity of
drugs he was doing at that time before and during the making of
Revolution 9.
------------------------------------
jay...@glink.net.hk
Polonius: What do you read, my lord?
Hamlet: Words, words, words.