Hugh II de LACY (d 1186) (addendum)

[Richard Borthwick]

At 07:23 PM 10/04/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 07:28 PM 4/10/97 +0000, Susan Fuller wrote:
>>Gordon,
>>
>>ot your file and it is really great. But now I am very confused. I have
>>two (possibably 3) Lacy lines and am stuck.
>>
>>I have a Hugh de LACY d 1186 Lord of Meath; father - Walter de Lacy d 1241
>>Lord of Meath; father Gilbert de Lacy; mother Maud de Lacy that married a
>>Geoffrey de Geneville Justicar of Ireland and they had son Piers de
>>Geneville that had a daughter Joan de Geneville. Joan married Roger de
>>Mortimer.
>>
>>Do you have any info on this line? Like I said, at the moment I am confused
>>and not sure if this is a part of the line you sent or not. Any thing or
>>suggestions would be appreciated.
>>
>>Most sincerly,
>>
>>Susan Fuller - AUSSI...@worldnet.att.net
>>
>>
>
>It looks like you have the son of your Hugh as his father -- note the death
>dates for the two. My Hugh (2) de LACY died in 1186, and was indeed Lord of
>Meath (see below). As Wightman has it, the father of this Hugh was a
>Gilbert de LACY whose wife Wightman doesn't give. Also, the son Walter of
>this Hugh is shown as dying in 1241, which is your date above. Presumably
>the mother of Hugh, wife of Gilbert, which you give as Maud de LACY, had a
>maiden name different from LACY?
>
>I have a Joan de GENEVILLE in my database, who married Roger de MORTIMER,
>but no other GENEVILLE, so I can't comment on that. Can someone else on
>this list connect Joan to her parents, and maybe to a LACY?
>
>In any case, your question enabled me to correct a typo -- I had the death
>date of Hugh (2) de LACY entered as part of his first name. Even better, it
>enabled me to notice a story told by Wightman about this Hugh which I missed
>before. It's a remarkable de LACY story, with a great surprise ending:
>
>"Much more is known of the actions of Hugh II than of any previous member of
>the family. He paid no scutage in 1164-5, so that he was probably present in
>person on the campaign of 1165 from Shrewsbury into North Wales. He was in
>Ireland with the king from October 1171, and remained there after the king
>returned in April 1172. He was back in England by 29 December 1172, when he
>distinguished himself at the first public festival of St. Thomas at
>Canterbury. The archbishop was carried away by the occasion and expressed
>himself rather too strongly, only to be rebuked firmly by Hugh II. In the
>summer of 1173 he was in NOrmandy hel0ping to quell the rising, and with
>Hugh de Beauchamp held the castle of Verneuil while it was being besieged by
>Louis VII in July. He spent some time during the year in Ireland, where he
>had acquired the old kingsom of Meath, so that from now onwards he spent a
>good deal of time on the west side of St. George's Channel. In the same
>year he had been given the city of Dublin and its castle, a grant followed
>five years later by his promotion to Viceroy. That post he held until 1184,
>although he had been deprived of Dublin castle for a short period in 1181-2
>as a penalty for marrying the daughter of Rory O'Connor, the last king of
>Connaught. At Durrow in July 1186 he had his head cut off by an Irishman
>while he was showing him how to use a pick, according to the graphic
>desctiprion in the chronicle of St. Mary, Dublin -- a commentary on his
>restless nature, apparently intolerant of inefficiency to the end."
> --- W E Wightman, *The Lacy Family in England and Normandy, 1066-1194*,
>Oxford (Clarendon Press) 1966, p 190-191
>
Maud de Lacy (d.1302) wife of Geoffrey de Geneville (d.1314) was the
grandmother of Joan de Geneville (d.1356) wife of Roger de Mortimer (d.1330)
earl of March. Maud was the daughter of Gilbert de Lacy (d.v.p.1230) and
Isabel Bigod. This Gilbert was son of Walter de Lacy (d.1241) lord of Meath
and Margaret de Braose. The Geneville's were lords of Trim in Ireland. Joan
de Geneville lady of Trim was heir of her father Piers (1292). Joan's mother
was Jehanne de Lusignan (d.1325) lady of Pontarion in France.

A Lacy puzzle. Gilbert de Lacy (d.1230) had a younger brother Hugh (d.1243)
earl of Ulster. Hugh left no sons. *A New History of Ireland* (Oxford UP,
1984) eds. T W Moody, F X Martin and F J Byrne, IX:173 says he had a
daughter Egidia who married Walter de Burgh (d.1271) earl of Ulster. Walter
de Burgh's mother, another Egidia, was daughter of Walter de Lacy (d.1241).
The union of Walter de Burgh and Egidia daughter Hugh de Lacy earl of Ulster
is claimed to be the source of the susequent de Burgh earls of Ulster. This
runs counter to the information in *The Complete Peerage* XII/2:173 and
V:437 which gives Walter's wife as Aveline (d.1274) daughter and eventual
coheir in her issue of John Fitz Geoffrey (d.1258) lord of Shere and
Shalford, Surrey, and sometime Justiciar of Ireland. If Walter de Burgh's
wife was Egidia de Lacy and not Aveline, it would mean that he married his
first cousin once removed. Is CP wrong and *A new History of Ireland* correct?