Concerning things re "Atlantis" that are-- as they are ...
Tom Ryan
If so, please e-mail me ...
Thanks,
Tom
Ben
Tom Ryan wrote:
>
> Any serious people here wishing to have a serious discussion re "Atlantis"?
There is no such thing as a serious discussion with regards to Atlantis. It's
just another greek myth with no basis in reality.
Agamemnon
"Ben" <e...@bell.net> wrote in message news:3ED0EB94...@bell.net...
BULLSHIT. Atlantis was the island of Thera. The proof is overwhelming. There
are even wall paintings of the palace walls at Akrotiri confirming Plato's
description.
Kice Brown
> Tom Ryan wrote:
> >
> > Any serious people here wishing to have a serious discussion re
"Atlantis"?
> "Ben" <e...@bell.net> wrote in message news:3ED0EB94...@bell.net...
> There is no such thing as a serious discussion with regards to Atlantis.
It's
> just another greek myth with no basis in reality.
au contraire -- There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the island
civilization described by Platon as Atlantis -- derived indirectly from
Egyptian sources -- was in actuality the Minoan civilization of Crete and
the Cycladic Islands. Some have attempted to limit the identity of
"Atlantis" to the Cycladic island of Thera, the island on which the volcanic
eruption occurred that is associated (at the very least) with the
destruction and ending of the Minoan civilization and (presumably) a cause
of the diaspora around the Mediteranean (eg to "Philistia"). Kice
Ben
TWADDLE. The proof of that is underwhelming and based on conjecture. Atlantis
never existed except in the mind of an ancient greek fantasy writer.
Kice Brown
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom Ryan wrote:
> > > > Any serious people here wishing to have a serious discussion re
> > "Atlantis"?
> > >
> > "Ben" <e...@bell.net> wrote in message news:3ED0EB94...@bell.net...
> > > There is no such thing as a serious discussion with regards to
Atlantis.
> > It's
> > > just another greek myth with no basis in reality.
> >
> > BULLSHIT. Atlantis was the island of Thera. The proof is overwhelming.
There
> > are even wall paintings of the palace walls at Akrotiri confirming
Plato's
> > description.
>
"Ben" <e...@bell.net> wrote in message news:3ED12EED...@bell.net...
> TWADDLE. The proof of that is underwhelming and based on conjecture.
Atlantis
> never existed except in the mind of an ancient greek fantasy writer.
OK Ben, what about the evidence/data concerning Thera or the Minoan
Cretan/Cycladic civilization as being the historical model for the legend of
Atlantis as presented by Platon? Kice
Ben
What about it? It's all fanciful guesswork. There is no absolute positive proof
that either civilization you mention can be *definitively* tied to the alleged
lost civilization of Atlantis. Until such time as definitive archeological evidence
can be found, the myth of Atlantis will remain just that, a myth.
Why is everyone so determined to validate the story of Atlantis? Why can't they
just accept it for the myth that it is? I can see it all now; in 2000 years a
historian will find a copy of Romeo and Juliet or 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
and then embark on a life long career to prove the story really happened.
Kice Brown
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom Ryan wrote:
> > > > > > Any serious people here wishing to have a serious discussion re
> > > > "Atlantis"?
> > > > >
> > > > "Ben" <e...@bell.net> wrote in message
news:3ED0EB94...@bell.net...
> > > > > There is no such thing as a serious discussion with regards to
> > Atlantis.
> > > > It's
> > > > > just another greek myth with no basis in reality.
> > > >
> > > Agamemnon wrote:
> > > > BULLSHIT. Atlantis was the island of Thera. The proof is
overwhelming.
> > There
> > > > are even wall paintings of the palace walls at Akrotiri confirming
> > Plato's
> > > > description.
> > >
> >
> > "Ben" <e...@bell.net> wrote in message news:3ED12EED...@bell.net...
> > > TWADDLE. The proof of that is underwhelming and based on conjecture.
> > Atlantis
> > > never existed except in the mind of an ancient greek fantasy writer.
> >
> Kice Brown wrote:
> > OK Ben, what about the evidence/data concerning Thera or the Minoan
> > Cretan/Cycladic civilization as being the historical model for the
legend of
> > Atlantis as presented by Platon? Kice
>
"Ben" <e...@bell.net> wrote in message news:3ED155FA...@bell.net...
> What about it? It's all fanciful guesswork. There is no absolute positive
proof
> that either civilization you mention can be *definitively* tied to the
alleged
> lost civilization of Atlantis. Until such time as definitive archeological
evidence
> can be found, the myth of Atlantis will remain just that, a myth.
>
> Why is everyone so determined to validate the story of Atlantis? Why can't
they
> just accept it for the myth that it is? I can see it all now; in 2000
years a
> historian will find a copy of Romeo and Juliet or 20,000 Leagues Under the
Sea
> and then embark on a life long career to prove the story really happened.
OK Ben -- you use the adverb "definitively" and the adjective "definitive"
above -- what is your operational definition of the underlying concept?
What would it take for archaeological evidence to be "definitive" in your
mind to tie the legend of Atlantis definitively to some ancient civilization
(including the Cretan & Cycladic Island Civilization that includes Thera).
One could argue that all archaeological theories are just "fancifal
guesswork" given that no amount of supporting data would meet the criterion
of "absolute positive proof". Kice
Ben
Self referential archeological artifacts would be a good starting point. One
second party reference in an ancient greek work of mythology is hardly a good
starting point.
Matt Giwer
When fiction is set in a real historical location it remains fiction.
At most there are a few factual details as the setting for a the fiction
which is the substance of the story.
I have read there some surviving comments on his story by his
contemporaries. They concured he made it up in varying degrees of
impolite expression of that opinion. When his contemporaries have not
heard of it there is little reason to believe he thought it was real.
--
In every election, half of the voters are below average.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 2663
Bobby D. Bryant
Actually, it wasn't even a Greek myth -- it was a literary invention of
Plato.
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
Agamemnon
"Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbr...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.05.26....@mail.utexas.edu...
HOGWASH. It was written by Solon based on Egyptian records. Read Plutarch.
Agamemnon
"Matt Giwer" <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:tzhAa.10682$y8.4...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
COMPLETE BULLSHIT. There were NO such comments.
Agamemnon
"Ben" <e...@bell.net> wrote in message news:3ED17E59...@bell.net...
How about the map of Atlantis that was found in Akrotiri dating to 1700 BC !
Marianne Luban
"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:bat2cp$33e$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...> news:pan.2003.05.26....@mail.utexas.edu.--
> > On Sun, 25 May 2003 16:12:58 +0000, Ben wrote:
> > Actually, it wasn't even a Greek myth -- it was a literary invention of
> > Plato.
>
> HOGWASH. It was written by Solon based on Egyptian records. Read Plutarch.
I never thought the day would dawn that I would find
myself in agreement with the abusive Agamemnon--but
he has a point. If the source is Solon, who purportedly
heard the legend from the priests of Neith in Egypt's
Delta, then that would certainly argue for Atlantis being
connected to the explosion of Thera. After the final
blast, the island was uninhabited for 200 years. Yet,
previously, there had been a culture there similar to that
on Crete, which is 70 miles to the south. Of course, the inhabitants of
Crete were affected by the cataclysm, as well. Tacitus claimed that people
from Crete found it
necessary to sail to North Africa as a result of a certain
disaster. I have little doubt that they found themselves in
Egypt, which was the perennial refuge and "bread-basket"
of peoples of the ancient Near East--and, of course,
Minoans also knew that there were silos of grain in Egypt.
At any rate, we know that the eruption of the volcano on
Thera affected the food supply of the people of the Aegean by decimating the
tuna population and having an adverse affect on agriculture, too. The
Egyptians, without a doubt, were well aware of what had occurred in the
Aegean--although there is probably no way they can have known about anything
as far away as Bimini, for example.
Everybody knows that rumors, once passed forward, tend to get altered in
their specifics, and Plato probably
made an error in his dating--for one thing. 9,000 years
is an awful long time to support folk-memory about any
occurrance. But 900 years is not too long and 9 centuries
from the time that Solon was in Egypt amounts to roughly
1500 BCE, which ties in with some other things found in the Delta from that
time relative to the explosion and Aegean culture. I realize that
scientists have argued that the blast occurred at least a century earlier,
but this remains a controversy. Also, certain Egyptologists have tied the
explosion on Thera to the Book of Exodus. This I discuss at some length in
my book.
--
THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding
the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt YOU WILL NEVER THINK OF THE EXODUS IN THE
SAME WAY AGAIN! http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.html
Bobby D. Bryant
> "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> news:bat2cp$33e$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> "Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbr...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
>> news:pan.2003.05.26....@mail.utexas.edu.--
>
>> > On Sun, 25 May 2003 16:12:58 +0000, Ben wrote: Actually, it wasn't
>> > even a Greek myth -- it was a literary invention of Plato.
>>
>> HOGWASH. It was written by Solon based on Egyptian records. Read
>> Plutarch.
>
> I never thought the day would dawn that I would find myself in
> agreement with the abusive Agamemnon--but he has a point. If the source
> is Solon, who purportedly heard the legend from the priests of Neith in
> Egypt's Delta,
Actually it's a long chain of he-said-that-he-said that occurs in a
_dramatic_dialog_. It's fiction, pure and simple.
> Everybody knows that rumors, once passed forward, tend to get altered in
> their specifics, and Plato probably made an error in his dating--for one
> thing. 9,000 years is an awful long time to support folk-memory about
> any occurrance. But 900 years is not too long...
Of course, if you're willing enough to change the facts around you can
make any story fit any version of reality.
As I said, Atlantis isn't even a myth. It's a prop for one of Plato's
silly arguments.
Chaeréphon
the question is : what did Plato know about Minoan civilization ???
--
Amicalement,
Chaeréphon
"Je ne crains rien, je n'espère rien, je suis libre."
Marianne Luban
--
"Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbr...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.05.26....@mail.utexas.edu...
> On Mon, 26 May 2003 14:15:37 +0000, Marianne Luban wrote:
>
> > "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> > news:bat2cp$33e$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >>
> >> "Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbr...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
> >> news:pan.2003.05.26....@mail.utexas.edu.--
> >
> >> > On Sun, 25 May 2003 16:12:58 +0000, Ben wrote: Actually, it wasn't
> >> > even a Greek myth -- it was a literary invention of Plato.
> >>
> >> HOGWASH. It was written by Solon based on Egyptian records. Read
> >> Plutarch.
> >
> > I never thought the day would dawn that I would find myself in
> > agreement with the abusive Agamemnon--but he has a point. If the source
> > is Solon, who purportedly heard the legend from the priests of Neith in
> > Egypt's Delta,
>
> Actually it's a long chain of he-said-that-he-said that occurs in a
> _dramatic_dialog_. It's fiction, pure and simple.
I don't think "pure" fiction is a concept that one encounters much from
antiquity. One finds a lot of
apocryphal tales--all connected to actual history to
varying degrees. Momentous occasions were recalled
somehow. And civilizations *have* disappeared for one
reason or another. Life on Thera, as it once was,was wiped out. There is
no question about that. The tale of
Atlantis is fictional only from the standpoint that there
are no artifacts from a place with the name "Atlantis" clearly indicated.
But that there were places resembling
the civilization described in the "Dialogues" is very possible. It is not
exactly something out of Jules Verne.
Citias, Plato's cousin, is the narrator of the "Dialogues".
Citias stresses on three occasions that the story is true.
Citias mentions that he heard it from his great-grandfather, Dropides, and
that Dropides heard it from none other than Solon. Solon heard it in Sais
about 590 BCE. Perhaps what Solon perceived as "Atlantis" was an Egyptian
phrase. For example, in Egyptian, a "iAt" is
already a mound or piece of real estate surrounded by water.
>
> > Everybody knows that rumors, once passed forward, tend to get altered in
> > their specifics, and Plato probably made an error in his dating--for one
> > thing. 9,000 years is an awful long time to support folk-memory about
> > any occurrance. But 900 years is not too long...
>
> Of course, if you're willing enough to change the facts around you can
> make any story fit any version of reality.
I haven't altered any facts except that I think Plato's
9,000 years is out of the question but an easily
accepted error for 900. If someone told me a story
that contained a quantity, I would probably remember
most of the elements correctly but could easily see myself
not being sure of the quantity.
THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors
from Antiquity Regarding the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt
YOU WILL NEVER THINK OF THE EXODUS IN THE
SAME WAY AGAIN! http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.html
Check Amazon.com for a review
Doug Weller
Destroyed, but hopefully not all have:
Of all the books I've read on Atlantis, the most impressive (and the
one with the most archaeological evidence) is Rodney Castleden's
Atlantis Destroyed, published in 1998 by Routledge. Castleden also
wrote The Making of Stonehenge, The Knossos Labyrinth, The Stonehenge
People, Neolithic Britain, and Minoans: Life in Bronze Age Crete.
(And Classic Landforms of the Sussex Coast for the Geographical
Association, but that's not relevant here!).
On page 7 he discusses the Pillars of Hercules: "Before the sixth
century BC several mountains on the edges of mainland Greece were
seen as supports for the sky. Amongst others, the two southward-
pointing headlands on each side of the Gulf of Laconia were pillars
of Heracles. Then, to the Greeks, a large island with one end just
outside the pillars of Heracles could only have meant Crete. [This
isn't the sum of Castleden's thesis, wait for it]...Support for a
Peloponnesian location for the pillars comes, unexpectedly, from
Egypt. The Medinet Habu texts, dating from 1200 BC, describe the Sea
Peoples invading from islands to the north (possibly the Aegean),
'from the pillars of heaven', by which the Egyptians probably meant
that the invaders came from the end of the world as they knew it.'
He then goes on to say "The thesis of this book is that the story is
not one piece of identifiable proto-history but several, and that
Plato drew them together because he wanted to weave them into a
parable that commented on the state of the world in his own times ...
he wanted to entertain, improve and exalt his readers. A distant
memory of the Minoan civilization was available, preserved for his
use, as he said, by the seventh century priests in the Nile delta.
The wealth, orderliness and strangeness of the Minoans are sketched
in for us." Castleden then points out that Plato does not write about
Atlantis as a utopia, but about Athens -- "It is the Athenians who
are described in utopian terms. It is they who have relinquished
private property... and have prolific fields and boundless pastures.
It is Athens that is the excellent land with well-tempered seasons."
Castleden follows this with a very detailed discussion of the
archaeology and geography of Minoan Crete and Thera and how that
compares with Plato's tale. He goes into detail about how the story
might have been transmitted to Plato and Plato's possible motives in
writing the two essays. (He also mentions that there was a century
older text by Hellanicus, of which only a small fragment survives,
called 'Atlantis'!).
In the last chapter, he writes "There are several reasons why there
have been so many misunderstandings about the nature of Atlantis and
its location in time and space:
"1. Plato left the various elements in the story's visible and
undigested. Although he altered it, he did not do so thoroughly and
the result is that Atlantis as described cannot have existed at all.
That has led some commentators to claim mistakenly that the story is
fiction from start to finish, and thus to overlook the proto-
historical content.
"2. The Egyptians who acquired the story in 1520 BC or shortly
afterwards had a very different geographical sense from he Greeks of
Plato's or Solon's time. To the 16th-century Egyptians, the Aegean
was a long way to the west. When the story was passed to Solon, the
known world was expanding rapidly, and either Solon or the priest may
have assumed that Atlantis was out in the newly visited Atlantic
Ocean.This mistake may actually have led to the ocean being named
after the lost land, rather than the other way around as most people
have assumed.
"3. The geographical mistake was compounded by a misreading of Linear
A or B numerals, or a misreading of hieratic or demotic copies of the
story made in Sais by Egyptian scribes, in the fifteenth century or
later. This led to a tenfold exaggeration of many of the distance
measurements, and a hundredfold exaggeration of area, so that the
Plain of Mesara, instead of being small enough to fit into central
Crete, was inflated to the size of the southern Aegean. The land
areas involved became too big to fit into the Mediterranean: another
reason for removing Atlantis to the outer ocean.
"4. A similar mistranslation of numerals led to an exaggeration of
the 900 years elapsing between Thera's destruction and Solon's
Egyptian visit to 9000 years. The idea of an advanced bronze age
culture ...in 9600 BC has always been unacceptable to pre-historians,
and that has helped to push Atlantis to the outer fringes of academic
study.
[Here I'd like to interject that I've always been puzzled by those
who believe in a 9600 BC Atlantis and ignore the archaeological
evidence that there was no 9600 BC bronze age Athens. They seem to
want to say that half the story is true, the other half false.]
"5. The hypothesis revived repeatedly in the 20th century - that
Minoan Crete was Atlantis - has proved inadequate ... The parallel
hypothesis, based on more recent archaeological evidence, that
Cycladic Thera was Atlantis is also in itself inadequate. Because
these hypotheses can be rejected separately, many have rejected the
idea that Atlantis might have existed in the southern Aegean,
understandably overlooking the possibility that if the two hypotheses
are combined they do meet the needs of Plato's description.
6. -- omitted, about the Pillars of Heracles and dealt with above.
"7. It is possible that contemporary allegorical readings of the tale
were intended to be implicitly ironic, and that in relation to Sparta
and Syracuse Plato intended Athens to be Atlantis. From the
execution of Socrates, Plato learned the value of cricumspection and
may have chosen, for safety's sake, not to say directly what he meant.
"
What I find so impressive in this book, as I've said, is the wealth
of archaeological evidence.
One final point. Castleden is holding to the later date for the Thera
eruption, and includes an appendix justifying this.
Castleden goes into a lot of detail about where Plato got inspiration
for various aspects of his story.
A nuch older book, Atlantis: Fact or Fiction, ed. Edwin Ramage, is
also interesting, especially the section on the literary perspective.
Doug
--
Doug Weller -- exorcise the demon to reply
Doug & Helen's Dogs http://www.dougandhelen.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
Bobby D. Bryant
> "Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbr...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
> news:pan.2003.05.26....@mail.utexas.edu...
>> Actually, it wasn't even a Greek myth -- it was a literary invention of
>> Plato.
>
> HOGWASH. It was written by Solon based on Egyptian records. Read
> Plutarch.
And for how many centuries had people been worshiping Plato's words when
Plutarch wrote his account?
Agamemnon
"Doug Weller" <dwe...@ramtops.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:81t4dv04isgthhdsq...@4ax.com...
> Apologies to those that have already read this commentary on Atlantis
> Destroyed, but hopefully not all have:
> Of all the books I've read on Atlantis, the most impressive (and the
> one with the most archaeological evidence) is Rodney Castleden's
> Atlantis Destroyed, published in 1998 by Routledge. Castleden also
> wrote The Making of Stonehenge, The Knossos Labyrinth, The Stonehenge
> People, Neolithic Britain, and Minoans: Life in Bronze Age Crete.
> (And Classic Landforms of the Sussex Coast for the Geographical
> Association, but that's not relevant here!).
>
> On page 7 he discusses the Pillars of Hercules: "Before the sixth
> century BC several mountains on the edges of mainland Greece were
> seen as supports for the sky. Amongst others, the two southward-
> pointing headlands on each side of the Gulf of Laconia were pillars
> of Heracles. Then, to the Greeks, a large island with one end just
> outside the pillars of Heracles could only have meant Crete. [This
RUBBSIH.
Plato says that Atlantis was to the west of the pillars. Thus the only
possible location of the Pillars of Herakles is the Bospherous. So this was
probably a reference to Herakles the Dactyl who came from Mount Ida in
Asia-Minor and moved to Mount Ida in Crete, c.1700 BC and look after Zeus
while he was growing up.
>
> "2. The Egyptians who acquired the story in 1520 BC or shortly
> afterwards had a very different geographical sense from he Greeks of
> Plato's or Solon's time. To the 16th-century Egyptians, the Aegean
> was a long way to the west. When the story was passed to Solon, the
> known world was expanding rapidly, and either Solon or the priest may
> have assumed that Atlantis was out in the newly visited Atlantic
> Ocean.This mistake may actually have led to the ocean being named
> after the lost land, rather than the other way around as most people
> have assumed.
>
>
> "4. A similar mistranslation of numerals led to an exaggeration of
> the 900 years elapsing between Thera's destruction and Solon's
> Egyptian visit to 9000 years. The idea of an advanced bronze age
> culture ...in 9600 BC has always been unacceptable to pre-historians,
> and that has helped to push Atlantis to the outer fringes of academic
> study.
The so-called years are semi-seasons, ie. fractional notation for divisions
of 8.
The Egyptians said their civilisation was later than that of Atlantis by
1000 "years" and Solon obtained the account between 570-560 BC while
visiting Ahmose II.
8000/8 + 570 = 1570 BC (+/-63 years) which is the start of the reign of
Amenhotep I who expelled the Hyksos from Egypt.
Thus the war between Atlantis and Athens occurred in 9000/8 + 570 = 1695 BC
(+/-63 years) which is pretty close to the date of the war between the
Titans and the Gods c.1685-1675 BC.
Plato also said that Zeus planned the destruction of Atlantis thus it is
pretty obvious that this is a retelling of the the story in Hesiods
Theogony.
Agamemnon
"Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbr...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.05.26....@mail.utexas.edu...
> On Mon, 26 May 2003 13:44:54 +0100, Agamemnon wrote:
>
> > "Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbr...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
> > news:pan.2003.05.26....@mail.utexas.edu...
>
> >> Actually, it wasn't even a Greek myth -- it was a literary invention of
> >> Plato.
> >
> > HOGWASH. It was written by Solon based on Egyptian records. Read
> > Plutarch.
>
> And for how many centuries had people been worshiping Plato's words when
> Plutarch wrote his account?
Plutarch had access to the original text of Solon.
Bobby D. Bryant
> "Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbr...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
> news:pan.2003.05.26....@mail.utexas.edu...
>> Actually it's a long chain of he-said-that-he-said that occurs in a
>> _dramatic_dialog_. It's fiction, pure and simple.
>
> I don't think "pure" fiction is a concept that one encounters much from
> antiquity.
Well, Plato's dialogs make a fine collection of examples.
You can call them "historical fiction" if you wish, since they put words
in the mouths of historical characters, but they must be seen first and
foremost as stories invented by Plato as a vehicle for his views.
> One finds a lot of apocryphal tales--all connected to actual history to
> varying degrees. Momentous occasions were recalled somehow. And
> civilizations *have* disappeared for one reason or another. Life on
> Thera, as it once was,was wiped out. There is no question about that.
> The tale of Atlantis is fictional only from the standpoint that there
> are no artifacts from a place with the name "Atlantis" clearly
> indicated. But that there were places resembling the civilization
> described in the "Dialogues" is very possible. It is not exactly
> something out of Jules Verne.
Nope, it's something out of Plato.
> Citias, Plato's cousin, is the narrator of the "Dialogues".
I.e., plays a role in the _fiction_ of the dialogs.
> Citias stresses on three occasions that the story is true.
Should that inspire confidence or suspicion?
> Citias mentions that he heard it from his great-grandfather, Dropides,
> and that Dropides heard it from none other than Solon. Solon heard it
> in Sais about 590 BCE.
In Plato's yarn, yes.
> Perhaps what Solon perceived as "Atlantis" was an Egyptian phrase. For
> example, in Egyptian, a "iAt" is already a mound or piece of real estate
> surrounded by water.
Or perhaps he made it up?
>> Of course, if you're willing enough to change the facts around you can
>> make any story fit any version of reality.
>
> I haven't altered any facts except that I think Plato's 9,000 years is
> out of the question but an easily accepted error for 900. If someone
> told me a story that contained a quantity, I would probably remember
> most of the elements correctly but could easily see myself not being
> sure of the quantity.
Still, you don't believe the story as told so you revise the inconvenient
parts. Why not just recognize that the story as told is pure fiction?
Matt Giwer
It is attributed to Solon in what writing of Solon's?
--
Third week in May, 2003, terror bombings in Saudi Arabia
and Morocco. That certainly proves the war on Iraq was
against terrorism.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 2679
Marianne Luban
> I don't think "pure" fiction is a concept that one encounters much from
> antiquity. One finds a lot of
> apocryphal tales--all connected to actual history to
> varying degrees. Momentous occasions were recalled
> somehow. And civilizations *have* disappeared for one
> reason or another. Life on Thera, as it once was,was wiped out. There is
> no question about that. The tale of
> Atlantis is fictional only from the standpoint that there
> are no artifacts from a place with the name "Atlantis" >clearly indicated.
And there never will be. However, that is about as
significant as the fact that there will never be anything coming out of
ancient Egypt with the word "Egypt"
written on it. Something to consider is that the etymology
of the name "Atlantis" is connected to "support", just as
is the name "Atlas". Can this possibly have something
to do with the Pillars of Hercules?
Kice Brown
Castleden's "Atlantis Destroyed". Since my retirement, and the consequent
disruption of my home library by the addition of several books from my
office library, my books have been stacked endwise on the shelves -- so my
copy of "Atlantis Destroyed" would have been difficult to find. My reading
of it a few years back is in fact the reason I've been stressing the
combination of Crete and the Cycladic Islands as the basis for the Atlantis
legend (& again I stress the concept that Atlantis is a legend, not a myth).
Kice Brown
"Doug Weller" <dwe...@ramtops.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:81t4dv04isgthhdsq...@4ax.com...
John Roth
"Kice Brown" <ki...@IowaTelecom.net> wrote in message
news:bari4f$qeb$1...@ins22.netins.net...
There are a couple of things to understand here. First, Plato states
that
he got the legend from Solon (a real historical person, and one of
Plato's
ancestors) who got it from the Egyptians. Solon is known to have
traveled
in Egypt, however, there is no shred of existing evidence that he got
anything from them, or that they had anything to give him.
Contrast this with the fact that the Minoan civilization was finally
brought down by the ancestors of the Athenian Greek civilization that
Plato was a part of, and that he certainly knew the stories of Theseus,
Ariadne and so forth that commerate the event.
To try to connect the two events is not, in my mind at least,
evidence of anything other than wishful thinking and a tendency
to grasp at currently exciting discoveries as explaining whatever
puzzle you currently want explained.
John Roth
>
>
John Roth
"Chaeréphon" <sarb...@hol.gr> wrote in message
news:3ED2414B...@hol.gr...
He undoubtedly knew the Thesesus and Ariadne cycle.
John Roth
John Roth
"Kice Brown" <ki...@IowaTelecom.net> wrote in message
I have heard it said that the eruption of Thera did ***NOT*** end
Minoan civilization. It existed for at least a century after the
eruption.
John Roth
>
>
Kice Brown
"John Roth" <john...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:vdaksqa...@news.supernews.com...
(& I know it's pure speculation on my part) between the Minoan civilization
and the subsequent Mycenaean rule in Crete -- I'm speculating that the
volcanic eruption sufficiently weakened the Minoan defenses that a Mycenaean
invasion (Theseus et al.) was enabled. What we likely have here are
culturally independent perspectives of the same events -- and that Platon
simply did not recognize (or at least chose not to acknowlege) the Egyptian
perspective via Solon as being related to the legendary history of Theseus
on Crete. Kice
Agamemnon
GET AN EDUCATION YOU FOOL
Platos tells that the Egyptians listed to Solon the name of all the Athenian
kings and that Atlantis dated to the time before Phoroneus the first man.
There is NO WAY that that there could have been any confuse with Theseus and
Ariaden who lived 400 years later as EVERY Greek historian knew.
>
> John Roth
> >
> >
>
>
Agamemnon
There was NO SUCH THING as the Minoan civilisation. The Minos of Theseus
time lived 400 years after the Thera Erruption. The civilisation of Crete
was Cretasn.
>
> John Roth
> >
> >
>
>
Agamemnon
"Kice Brown" <ki...@IowaTelecom.net> wrote in message
Mycenae NEVER conquered Crete.
> volcanic eruption sufficiently weakened the Minoan defenses that a
Mycenaean
> invasion (Theseus et al.) was enabled. What we likely have here are
RUBBSIH. Theseus dates to 1250 BC and he was from ATHENS not Mycenae. Thera
erupted in 1628 BC.
> culturally independent perspectives of the same events -- and that Platon
> simply did not recognize (or at least chose not to acknowlege) the
Egyptian
> perspective via Solon as being related to the legendary history of Theseus
> on Crete. Kice
RUBBISH. The entire story of Atlantis runs concurrent to the time of the
Thera Eruption. You even have 10 kings ruling the land equivalent to the 12
Titans. Plato him self state that Atlantis was founded before the time of
Phoroneus. The story is the same story as the battle between the Gods and
Titans.
Marianne Luban
(snip)
> RUBBSIH. Theseus dates to 1250 BC and he was from ATHENS not Mycenae.
Thera
> erupted in 1628 BC.
I am sure Agamemnon will revert to advising me to get an
education, but I think, despite the dendrochronological
findings, that it is far from certain that the volcano on
Thera erupted that early. Pumice from the blast was found at Avaris in
Egypt's Delta at a level consistent
with the 18th Dynasty, which, insofar as we know, did not begin until ca.
1570 BCE. Perhaps the scientific findings
need a bigger window and the explosion cannot be so accurately pinpointed.
I discuss all this in my book. Some scholars have also connected the blast
to the descriptions of the "miracles" in the Book of Exodus--and no ancient
sources claim an exodus of Semitic peoples occurred in Egypt prior to the
accession of King Ahmose I, who evidently began his reign in 1570 BCE.
--
.: april :.
> time lived 400 years after the Thera Erruption. The civilisation of Crete
> was Cretasn.
Okay, now you are just splitting hairs. The civilization on Crete is
commonly known as Minoan because that is what Evans called it. Everyone
knows that King Minos is a mythical character.
April
--
April McDevitt
Ancient Egypt: the Mythology (http://www.egyptianmyths.net)
Once Upon a Time... (http://www.egyptianmyths.net/blog/)
Agamemnon
"Marianne Luban" <mluba...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:gMxBa.21620$rO.19...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> news:bb5saq$6gg$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> (snip)
> > RUBBSIH. Theseus dates to 1250 BC and he was from ATHENS not Mycenae.
> Thera
> > erupted in 1628 BC.
>
> I am sure Agamemnon will revert to advising me to get an
> education, but I think, despite the dendrochronological
> findings, that it is far from certain that the volcano on
> Thera erupted that early. Pumice from the blast was found at Avaris in
> Egypt's Delta at a level consistent
> with the 18th Dynasty, which, insofar as we know, did not begin until ca.
The pumice was an import. The DC and the Ice Cores both date it to 1628 BC.
The Greek Traditional Chronology dates it to 1628 BC and even the Blibe
dates it to that date.
> 1570 BCE. Perhaps the scientific findings
> need a bigger window and the explosion cannot be so accurately
pinpointed.
The margin of error on the scientific findings is only +/- 10 years.
> I discuss all this in my book. Some scholars have also connected the
blast
> to the descriptions of the "miracles" in the Book of Exodus--and no
ancient
Impossible. The Exodus was based on events occurring in 1200 BC. Nohas Flood
is the biblical event that dates to 1628 BC.
> sources claim an exodus of Semitic peoples occurred in Egypt prior to the
> accession of King Ahmose I, who evidently began his reign in 1570 BCE.
Of course they didn't. The Hyksos or foreigin kings were Indo-Europeans,
mostly Greeks.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/index.htm
Agamemnon
".: april :." <netjertR...@egyptianmyths.net> wrote in message
news:HcyBa.7198$S9.2...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > There was NO SUCH THING as the Minoan civilisation. The Minos of Theseus
> > time lived 400 years after the Thera Erruption. The civilisation of
Crete
> > was Cretasn.
>
> Okay, now you are just splitting hairs. The civilization on Crete is
> commonly known as Minoan because that is what Evans called it.
Evans was a FOOL. This idiot deliberately refused to accept that Linear B
could possible be Greek and set back science over 50 years. If he'd
bothered to read Diodorus he would have known Minos dated to 1250 BC. The
guy was as ignorant of history as those idiots that think the Lemnians
Pelasgians were Etruscans.
> knows that King Minos is a mythical character.
WRONG. Minos was REAL.
.: april :.
>
> ".: april :." <netjertR...@egyptianmyths.net> wrote in message
> news:HcyBa.7198$S9.2...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > > There was NO SUCH THING as the Minoan civilisation. The Minos of
Theseus
> > > time lived 400 years after the Thera Erruption. The civilisation of
> Crete
> > > was Cretasn.
> >
> > Okay, now you are just splitting hairs. The civilization on Crete is
> > commonly known as Minoan because that is what Evans called it.
>
> Evans was a FOOL. This idiot deliberately refused to accept that Linear B
> could possible be Greek and set back science over 50 years. If he'd
> bothered to read Diodorus he would have known Minos dated to 1250 BC. The
> guy was as ignorant of history as those idiots that think the Lemnians
> Pelasgians were Etruscans.
Did I say he was a genius? No. I was explaining that the reason the Crete
civilization is called Minoan had nothing to do with the legendary king.
> > knows that King Minos is a mythical character.
>
> WRONG. Minos was REAL.
And not being a fool yourself, I assume you have some sort of proof...
April
Kice Brown
"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
>
>
> RUBBSIH. Theseus dates to 1250 BC and he was from ATHENS not Mycenae.
Thera
> erupted in 1628 BC.
>
Well duh !! Of course Theseus is associated with Athens rather than with
Mycenae -- but Mycenaean doesn't just connote an association with Mycenae
per se, but rather the collection of citadels in mainland Greece during that
period. I realize you might have another term to use for that collection
but then it's simply a semantic difference -- such as your prediliction to
use "Cretan" instead of "Minoan" for the islands civilization prior to
invasion from the mainland -- after which I would use the term
Minoan-Mycenaean for the island civilization. Kice
John Roth
"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
This was, I believe, my point all along. I think you need to
learn to read what's written.
John Roth
>
>
>
> >
> > John Roth
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Agamemnon
"Kice Brown" <ki...@IowaTelecom.net> wrote in message
>
> "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> news:bb5saq$6gg$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> >
> > RUBBSIH. Theseus dates to 1250 BC and he was from ATHENS not Mycenae.
> Thera
> > erupted in 1628 BC.
> >
>
> Well duh !! Of course Theseus is associated with Athens rather than
with
> Mycenae -- but Mycenaean doesn't just connote an association with Mycenae
YES IT BLOODY WELL DOES !
The people of Athens called themselves Athenians. The Peloponnesians called
themselves Achaeans, Danai, Pelasgi, and Spartans and are recorded by those
names in Egyptian Inscriptions. Even the foundation of the City of Amyclae
in 1380 BC is recorded by the Egyptians. These people were NOT Mycenaeans.
> per se, but rather the collection of citadels in mainland Greece during
that
> period. I realize you might have another term to use for that collection
> but then it's simply a semantic difference -- such as your prediliction to
It is simply HISTORICAL FACT ! Not even Homer uses the term Mycenaean to
describe any of the Greeks except those that sent ships from Myceneae.
> use "Cretan" instead of "Minoan" for the islands civilization prior to
> invasion from the mainland -- after which I would use the term
> Minoan-Mycenaean for the island civilization. Kice
NOBODY from Mycenae invaded Crete. The Civilisation of Crete was CRETAN and
it is still Cretan. In 1438 BC Crete was invaded by an Inarachid clan from
Phoenicia who assimilated the native Cretan culture. In 1380 BC Crete was
invaded by an alliance of Aeolians and Pelasgi from Northern Greece lead by
Tectemus who destroyed the last of the old Cretan Palaces and whose culture
was assimilated by the Cretans.
Agamemnon
> "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> news:bb6c85$hn2$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > ".: april :." <netjertR...@egyptianmyths.net> wrote in message
> > news:HcyBa.7198$S9.2...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > > > There was NO SUCH THING as the Minoan civilisation. The Minos of
> Theseus
> > > > time lived 400 years after the Thera Erruption. The civilisation of
> > Crete
> > > > was Cretasn.
> > >
> > > Okay, now you are just splitting hairs. The civilization on Crete is
> > > commonly known as Minoan because that is what Evans called it.
> >
> > Evans was a FOOL. This idiot deliberately refused to accept that Linear
B
> > could possible be Greek and set back science over 50 years. If he'd
> > bothered to read Diodorus he would have known Minos dated to 1250 BC.
The
> > guy was as ignorant of history as those idiots that think the Lemnians
> > Pelasgians were Etruscans.
>
> Did I say he was a genius? No. I was explaining that the reason the Crete
> civilization is called Minoan had nothing to do with the legendary king.
Irrelevant. The name is historically inaccurate and misleading.
>
> > > knows that King Minos is a mythical character.
> >
> > WRONG. Minos was REAL.
>
> And not being a fool yourself, I assume you have some sort of proof...
READ THE LINEAR A INSCRIPTIONS which name Rhadamanthys who was Minos brother
as king of Knossos No-da-ma-te. Even the Peloponnesian king Apis who was
worship as a God of both Greece and Egypt and was the Pharaoh Apepi II who
all the Greek and Egyptian chronologies pace at 1628 BC is named in Linear A
as Saiapis and dates archeologically to 1628 BC.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
>
> April
>
>
o8TY
> myself in agreement with the abusive Agamemnon--but
> he has a point. If the source is Solon, who purportedly
> heard the legend from the priests of Neith in Egypt's
> connected to the explosion of Thera. After the final
> blast, the island was uninhabited for 200 years. Yet,
> previously, there had been a culture there similar to that
> on Crete, which is 70 miles to the south. Of course, the inhabitants of
> Crete were affected by the cataclysm, as well. Tacitus claimed that
people
> from Crete found it
> necessary to sail to North Africa as a result of a certain
> disaster. I have little doubt that they found themselves in
> Egypt, which was the perennial refuge and "bread-basket"
> of peoples of the ancient Near East--and, of course,
> Minoans also knew that there were silos of grain in Egypt.
> At any rate, we know that the eruption of the volcano on
> Thera affected the food supply of the people of the Aegean by decimating
the
> tuna population and having an adverse affect on agriculture, too. The
> Egyptians, without a doubt, were well aware of what had occurred in the
> Aegean--although there is probably no way they can have known about
anything
> as far away as Bimini, for example.
>
If the explosion of Thera was that great, the people of Egypt would
certainly have heard it being less than a thousand kilometres away. Compare
the distances heard for the Krakatoa eruption.
There is further reason to believe that the noise from Thera was heard in
Egypt, where the Hyksos ruler at Avaris apparently complained of being kept
awake at nights by the roaring hippopotamai at Memphis, a distance of some
three kilometres away. If must have been a pretty big hippo or lots of them
to make this amount of noise carry this distance.
> Everybody knows that rumors, once passed forward, tend to get altered in
> their specifics, and Plato probably
> made an error in his dating--for one thing. 9,000 years
> is an awful long time to support folk-memory about any
> occurrance. But 900 years is not too long and 9 centuries
> from the time that Solon was in Egypt amounts to roughly
> 1500 BCE, which ties in with some other things found in the Delta from
that
> time relative to the explosion and Aegean culture. I realize that
> scientists have argued that the blast occurred at least a century earlier,
> but this remains a controversy. Also, certain Egyptologists have tied the
> explosion on Thera to the Book of Exodus. This I discuss at some length
in
> my book.
Agamemnon
"o8TY" <o8...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ed8d...@news.iprimus.com.au...
Do you have his name ?
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg
<agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> in soc.history.ancient, wrote the
following:
>"o8TY" <o8...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3ed8d...@news.iprimus.com.au...
>>
>> There is further reason to believe that the noise from Thera was heard in
>> Egypt, where the Hyksos ruler at Avaris apparently complained of being
>kept
>> awake at nights by the roaring hippopotamai at Memphis, a distance of some
>
>Do you have his name ?
Most likely Apepi I who ruled 40 years, called Apophis by the Greek
authors. He would have been contemporaneous with the Egyptian king to
whom he was writing, Seqenenre Tao I (ca. 1633-1574 BCE).
You can find translations of the "Quarrel Between Apophis and Seqenenre
Tao" in
Pritchard, J. B., Ed. 1969. _Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the
Old Testament_: 231. Princeton: Princeton University Press.
Simpson, W. K., Ed. 1972. _The Literature of Ancient Egypt: An Anthology
of Stories, Instruction and Poetry_: 77-80. New Haven and London: Yale
University Press.
The remaining textual evidence of this story comes from the Ramesside
period, BTW, so the artifact is not contemporaneous with the event, but
had become a story of legend by that time. However, there's little to
indicate the event did not happen, either.
HTH.
Regards --
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, ASOR, EES, SSEA
University of Alabama at Birmingham
UAB Options/Special Studies
Agamemnon
"Katherine Griffis-Greenberg" <egy...@griffis-consulting.com> wrote in
message news:kd8idvo9q9aduqreo...@4ax.com...
Agamemnon
"Katherine Griffis-Greenberg" <egy...@griffis-consulting.com> wrote in
message news:kd8idvo9q9aduqreo...@4ax.com...
> <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> in soc.history.ancient, wrote the
> following:
>
> >"o8TY" <o8...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:3ed8d...@news.iprimus.com.au...
>
> >>
> >> There is further reason to believe that the noise from Thera was heard
in
> >> Egypt, where the Hyksos ruler at Avaris apparently complained of being
> >kept
> >> awake at nights by the roaring hippopotamai at Memphis, a distance of
some
> >
> >Do you have his name ?
>
> Most likely Apepi I who ruled 40 years, called Apophis by the Greek
> authors. He would have been contemporaneous with the Egyptian king to
> whom he was writing, Seqenenre Tao I (ca. 1633-1574 BCE).
If he mentions the Thera Eruption then it cant be Epaphus/Apepi I since he
was murdered in the year it occurred. Its more likely to be Sarapis/Apepi
II.
According to Manetho.
1674-1667.5 Salatis (13/2)
Sheshi/Shalik =Saasitepis =Zeus
1667.5-1645.5 Beon (44/2)
Khyan
1645.5-1626.5 Apachnas (36/2 + 7 months)
=Epaphus father of Lybia
Apepi I
1626.5-1596 Apophis (61/2)
=Apis the son of Phoroneus aka. Sarapis or Saapis
Apepi II
1596-1571 Janins (50/2 + 1 month)
=Alisphragmuthosis =Poseidon husband of Libya
Yakhuber
1571-1546 Assis (49/2 + 2 months)
Khamudy Aasehre
=1570-1546/51 Ahmoses (24/19) =Agenor
According to Apllodorus Syncellus
1626.5-1604 Apis ([10+]35)/2
at Argos
According to Castor
1629-1606.5 Apis ([10+]35)/2
at Argos
According to Apllodorus
1628.75-1622.5 BC Apis 25/4
at Sicyon
According to the Bible
Thera Eruption/Flood of Deukalion/Noah
1627.17 BC
= July 1626 BC (+/- 1 month) Normalised to the Hebrew calendar
According to Linear A inscription
c.1625 BC Saiapis
>
> You can find translations of the "Quarrel Between Apophis and Seqenenre
> Tao" in
>
> Pritchard, J. B., Ed. 1969. _Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the
> Old Testament_: 231. Princeton: Princeton University Press.
>
> Simpson, W. K., Ed. 1972. _The Literature of Ancient Egypt: An Anthology
> of Stories, Instruction and Poetry_: 77-80. New Haven and London: Yale
> University Press.
Are they on the internet ?
Agamemnon
"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
correction I counted the wrong way
=July 1628 BC (+/- 1 month)
Start of Hebrew year 1627 BC = September 1628 BC
The biblical date is exactly the same as the dendrochronological date.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/index.htm
Marianne Luban
> > If he mentions the Thera Eruption then it cant be Epaphus/Apepi I since
he
> > was murdered in the year it occurred. Its more likely to be
Sarapis/Apepi
> > II.
The story doesn't mention any eruption, I'm afraid. The complaint was a
challenge, a made-up excuse. Anyway,
it is a story--but the war with the Hyksos really did occur and Seqenenre
Tao evidently lost his life as a result. His
kinsmen continued battling the Hyksos until the Thebans were victorious and
Egypt was once again united--heralding the start of the New Kingdom under
Ahmose I.
> > According to Manetho.
Manetho doesn't provide any dates. He simply
gives dynasties and regnal years. And, BTW,
Eusebius warned that his kinglist shouldn't always
be construed as predecessor before successor--but
that some of the pharaohs were ruling concurrently.
> > 1674-1667.5 Salatis (13/2)
> > Sheshi/Shalik =Saasitepis =Zeus
> >
> > 1667.5-1645.5 Beon (44/2)
> > Khyan
> >
> > 1645.5-1626.5 Apachnas (36/2 + 7 months)
> > =Epaphus father of Lybia
> > Apepi I
> >
> > 1626.5-1596 Apophis (61/2)
> > =Apis the son of Phoroneus aka. Sarapis or Saapis
> > Apepi II
> >
> > 1596-1571 Janins (50/2 + 1 month)
> > =Alisphragmuthosis =Poseidon husband of Libya
> > Yakhuber
> >
> > 1571-1546 Assis (49/2 + 2 months)
> > Khamudy Aasehre
> > =1570-1546/51 Ahmoses (24/19) =Agenor
You seem very sure, but there is no certainty about
the 15th Dynasty, the Hyksos, at all. Various sources
give various dates. Salitis probably sacked Memphis
ca. 1720 BCE but no Hyksos ruler felt confident enough
to assume pharaonic titles until 1666 or so.
> > According to Apllodorus Syncellus
> >
> > 1626.5-1604 Apis ([10+]35)/2
> > at Argos
> >
> > According to Castor
> >
> > 1629-1606.5 Apis ([10+]35)/2
> > at Argos
> >
> > According to Apllodorus
> >
> > 1628.75-1622.5 BC Apis 25/4
> > at Sicyon
> >
> > According to the Bible
> >
> > Thera Eruption/Flood of Deukalion/Noah
> >
> > 1627.17 BC
> > = July 1626 BC (+/- 1 month) Normalised to the Hebrew calendar
>
> correction I counted the wrong way
>
> =July 1628 BC (+/- 1 month)
>
> Start of Hebrew year 1627 BC = September 1628 BC
>
> The biblical date is exactly the same as the >
>dendrochronological date.
There is no Biblical date and all these other dates you
give are estimated by you. The ancient chronographers
never gave dates in years, like we do. They always said "in the reign of
King X" or "so many years after this or that person or event". There is
not one actual date in the entire Hebrew Bible. Just regnal years and the
space
of time from one momentous occasion to another.
Agamemnon
> "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> news:bbbhg7$2ba$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > If he mentions the Thera Eruption then it cant be Epaphus/Apepi I
since
> he
> > > was murdered in the year it occurred. Its more likely to be
> Sarapis/Apepi
> > > II.
>
> The story doesn't mention any eruption, I'm afraid. The complaint was a
> challenge, a made-up excuse. Anyway,
> it is a story--but the war with the Hyksos really did occur and Seqenenre
> Tao evidently lost his life as a result. His
> kinsmen continued battling the Hyksos until the Thebans were victorious
and
> Egypt was once again united--heralding the start of the New Kingdom under
> Ahmose I.
>
>
> > > According to Manetho.
>
> Manetho doesn't provide any dates. He simply
> gives dynasties and regnal years. And, BTW,
And when you add them up you get the chronology.
> Eusebius warned that his kinglist shouldn't always
> be construed as predecessor before successor--but
> that some of the pharaohs were ruling concurrently.
Which is what I already deduced.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/Manetho.htm
>
>
> > > 1674-1667.5 Salatis (13/2)
> > > Sheshi/Shalik =Saasitepis =Zeus
> > >
> > > 1667.5-1645.5 Beon (44/2)
> > > Khyan
> > >
> > > 1645.5-1626.5 Apachnas (36/2 + 7 months)
> > > =Epaphus father of Lybia
> > > Apepi I
> > >
> > > 1626.5-1596 Apophis (61/2)
> > > =Apis the son of Phoroneus aka. Sarapis or Saapis
> > > Apepi II
> > >
> > > 1596-1571 Janins (50/2 + 1 month)
> > > =Alisphragmuthosis =Poseidon husband of Libya
> > > Yakhuber
> > >
> > > 1571-1546 Assis (49/2 + 2 months)
> > > Khamudy Aasehre
> > > =1570-1546/51 Ahmoses (24/19) =Agenor
>
> You seem very sure, but there is no certainty about
> the 15th Dynasty, the Hyksos, at all. Various sources
> give various dates. Salitis probably sacked Memphis
> ca. 1720 BCE but no Hyksos ruler felt confident enough
> to assume pharaonic titles until 1666 or so.
Nope. Salatis is nowhere near 1720. He dates fimely to 1674.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/ParaApion.htm
>
> > > According to Apllodorus Syncellus
> > >
> > > 1626.5-1604 Apis ([10+]35)/2
> > > at Argos
> > >
> > > According to Castor
> > >
> > > 1629-1606.5 Apis ([10+]35)/2
> > > at Argos
> > >
> > > According to Apllodorus
> > >
> > > 1628.75-1622.5 BC Apis 25/4
> > > at Sicyon
> > >
> > > According to the Bible
> > >
> > > Thera Eruption/Flood of Deukalion/Noah
> > >
> > > 1627.17 BC
> > > = July 1626 BC (+/- 1 month) Normalised to the Hebrew calendar
> >
> > correction I counted the wrong way
> >
> > =July 1628 BC (+/- 1 month)
> >
> > Start of Hebrew year 1627 BC = September 1628 BC
> >
> > The biblical date is exactly the same as the >
> >dendrochronological date.
>
> There is no Biblical date and all these other dates you
There is a precise biblical date.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/EstablishChronology.htm
> give are estimated by you. The ancient chronographers
> never gave dates in years, like we do. They always said "in the reign of
> King X" or "so many years after this or that person or event". There is
WRONG. The bible is not written that way. The Septuagint is based on the 262
BC chronology of Apollonius which is what Diodurus is also anchored to.
> not one actual date in the entire Hebrew Bible. Just regnal years and the
> space
> of time from one momentous occasion to another.
WRONG. It gives you ages and dates of birth and from those you can
reconstruct lengths of reign to the nearest month. One patriarchs reign
begins after the death of the previous patriarch. A ten year old who has
been taught fractions can do the arithmetic quite easily. The maths is
irrefutable.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/EstablishChronology.htm
o8TY
since
> he
> > > was murdered in the year it occurred. Its more likely to be
> Sarapis/Apepi
> > > II.
>
> The story doesn't mention any eruption, I'm afraid. The complaint was a
> challenge, a made-up excuse. Anyway,
> it is a story--but the war with the Hyksos really did occur and Seqenenre
> Tao evidently lost his life as a result. His
> kinsmen continued battling the Hyksos until the Thebans were victorious
and
> Egypt was once again united--heralding the start of the New Kingdom under
> Ahmose I.
>
>
"Anyway it is a story", she says, dismissively. Now let me guess, the story
is the exodus is not a story but is history, and the story of the
hippopotami does not feature in your book.
o8TY
> certainly have heard it being less than a thousand kilometres away.
Compare
> the distances heard for the Krakatoa eruption.
>
> There is further reason to believe that the noise from Thera was heard in
> Egypt, where the Hyksos ruler at Avaris apparently complained of being
kept
> awake at nights by the roaring hippopotamai at Memphis, a distance of some
> three kilometres away. If must have been a pretty big hippo or lots of
them
> to make this amount of noise carry this distance.
>
I stand corrected. The distance from Memphis to Avaris is some three HUNDRED
kilometres away.
Marianne Luban
When I said "it is a story", I meant only that it is counted
among the literature of ancient Egypt--and not the historical records. But
I am not dismissive about anything.
And, yes, I do mention the incident in my book. I also
mention that I find it doubtful that there was such a concept as "pure
fiction" in the Egypt of antiquity--or that this would have been very
popular. In other words, most of their stories had some element of history
in them--except perhaps the one about the man having a conversation with a
sea serpent. That one I will have to check on so I can refresh my memory.
As for the Book of Exodus--it is the same thing--a story with historical
elements. Unless you believe there was someone with a tape-recorder present
recording every word that passed between Moses, Aaron and the Pharaoh.
Please stop
guessing about what is in my book. You would be better
off just surmising that "everything" is in there.
Regarding your other post, it does not matter how many
miles there were between Avaris and Memphis, because
Seqenenre lived in Thebes. Apophis controlled both the other cities. The
distance between Avaris and Thebes was 800 kilometers or 400 miles.
o8TY
I am glad to hear you treat them both as stories.
Somewhat similar to the hippopotamus story is the episode where the
Israelites reach Mt Sinai in their fight from Egypt, and hear a "trumpet"
blast coming from the mountain so loud that all the people in the Israelite
camp trembled. Yet, at the same time and in the same passage, the loudest
wind instrument then possessed by the Israelites was the shofar, which was
fashioned from the horn of a ram. [Exodus 19.13-16] Now while English
translators (eg KJV) may have taken liberties with the word "trumpet", and
while it is not certain whether the "trumpet" had actually been invented by
the time of the exodus, the loudest roaring sound known to the ancient
Egyptians was quite possibly that coming from a hippotamus or elephant.
Do you discuss this aspect in your book?
Marianne Luban
> Somewhat similar to the hippopotamus story is the episode where the
> Israelites reach Mt Sinai in their fight from Egypt, and hear a "trumpet"
> blast coming from the mountain so loud that all the people in the
Israelite
> camp trembled. Yet, at the same time and in the same passage, the loudest
> wind instrument then possessed by the Israelites was the shofar, which was
> fashioned from the horn of a ram. [Exodus 19.13-16] Now while English
> translators (eg KJV) may have taken liberties with the word "trumpet", and
> while it is not certain whether the "trumpet" had actually been invented
by
> the time of the exodus, the loudest roaring sound known to the ancient
> Egyptians was quite possibly that coming from a hippotamus or elephant.
>
My Hebrew version does not mention a trumpet. Exodus 19:13 says "...no hand
shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it
be beast or man, it shall not live; when the ram's horn sounds long, they
shall come up to the mountain." and 19: 16 "...there were thunders and
lightenings and a thick cloud upon the mountain, and the voice of a horn
exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled."
A shofar is no trumpet but that one can get loud blasts on it is undisputed.
I hear it every year at the High Holy Days and it never fails to tingle my
spine. But the ancient Egyptians had the trumpet, which they used in war.
A story dating to the 12th Dynasty, "The Tale of Sinuhe", has the children
of a king saying to him "turn aside your
war-trumpet, set down your arrow". Since copies of the tale do exist from
the 12th and 13th Dynasties, one might
conclude that the trumpet in Egypt predates any exodus.
Some other passages in Exodus beyond 19: 16 cast doubt upon it being any
sort of "horn" that the Hebrews heard but a real "blast", such as the
eruption of a volcanic mountain might produce. They also saw smoke and the
"gentle quaking" of Mount Sinai. Today, however, nobody can be sure where
Mount Sinai was and I never heard of a volcanic peak being discovered in the
Sinai desert. Who knows?
o8TY
I gather then that the word for "horn" in the Hebrew version is not the same
as "shofar".
> A shofar is no trumpet but that one can get loud blasts on it is
undisputed.
> I hear it every year at the High Holy Days and it never fails to tingle my
> spine. But the ancient Egyptians had the trumpet, which they used in war.
I too have heard a shofar, and would never say it was anywhere near as loud
or as penetrating as a metal trumpet.
> A story dating to the 12th Dynasty, "The Tale of Sinuhe", has the children
> of a king saying to him "turn aside your
> war-trumpet, set down your arrow". Since copies of the tale do exist from
> the 12th and 13th Dynasties, one might
> conclude that the trumpet in Egypt predates any exodus.
>
I will have to check this again. But so far as I recollect the story was
much much later than 13th D.
> Some other passages in Exodus beyond 19: 16 cast doubt upon it being any
> sort of "horn" that the Hebrews heard but a real "blast", such as the
> eruption of a volcanic mountain might produce. They also saw smoke and
the
> "gentle quaking" of Mount Sinai. Today, however, nobody can be sure where
> Mount Sinai was and I never heard of a volcanic peak being discovered in
the
> Sinai desert. Who knows?
>
The issue with the "horn" is certainly one of relativity, that it produced a
sound blast more powerful than that emitted by a shofar. But then why didn't
the Hebrew writers equate the sound with that of an Egyptian war-trumpet,
which they would have been familiar with, and which was certainly louder
than their shofar.
The inclusion of volcanic activity into the story suggests that either a
real eruption was witnessed or that the writer was sufficiently aware of
volcanic phenomena to associate it with the sound or shape of a "horn" or
"trumpet". That no volcanic eruption other than Thera is in evidence in the
Mediterranean region during the second milleniumn BC strongly suggests the
two events were deemed coeval.
However, it seems more than possible that the Hyksos left the Aegean region
shortly before the great eruption of Thera, probably after the volcano had
become menacingly active, were expelled from Egypt shortly after the
eruption, and then, according to Josephus, they founded Jerusalem. Thus the
story of exodus might actually relate to the Hyksos. Following the reign of
the Hyksos (if it indeed ceased) trumpet-shaped columns then begin to appear
in temples across Egypt.
Marianne Luban
Yes, it is the sound of the "shofar" that made the people tremble in the
Hebrew version.
> > A shofar is no trumpet but that one can get loud blasts on it is
> undisputed.
> > I hear it every year at the High Holy Days and it never fails to tingle
my
> > spine. But the ancient Egyptians had the trumpet, which they used in
war.
> I too have heard a shofar, and would never say it was anywhere near as
loud
> or as penetrating as a metal trumpet.
Perhaps not the trumpets we have nowadays. But it is difficult to say how
loud the trumpets of the ancients were.
A man once blew a silver trumpet found in the tomb of
Tutankhamun on the BBC. The sound was recorded,
but the trumpet shattered after the blast.
> > A story dating to the 12th Dynasty, "The Tale of Sinuhe", has the
children
> > of a king saying to him "turn aside your
> > war-trumpet, set down your arrow". Since copies of the tale do exist
from
> > the 12th and 13th Dynasties, one might
> > conclude that the trumpet in Egypt predates any exodus.
> >
>
> I will have to check this again. But so far as I recollect the story was
> much much later than 13th D.
No, the story begins with the flight of Sinuhe upon overhearing a plot to
murder the pharaoh Amenemhat I.
This would be early 12th Dynasty. Copies of parts of the tale also exist
from Ramesside times.
> > Some other passages in Exodus beyond 19: 16 cast doubt upon it being any
> > sort of "horn" that the Hebrews heard but a real "blast", such as the
> > eruption of a volcanic mountain might produce. They also saw smoke and
> the
> > "gentle quaking" of Mount Sinai. Today, however, nobody can be sure
where
> > Mount Sinai was and I never heard of a volcanic peak being discovered in
> the
> > Sinai desert. Who knows?
> >
>
> The issue with the "horn" is certainly one of relativity, that it produced
a
> sound blast more powerful than that emitted by a shofar. But then why
didn't
> the Hebrew writers equate the sound with that of an Egyptian war-trumpet,
> which they would have been familiar with, and which was certainly louder
> than their shofar.
You seem to think it might be. However, how does one
describe a "rumbling" that an active volcano might make without actually
erupting full scale--just enough to emit some smoke? In those days, people
had no real frame of reference for such things, which were rarely heard.
Perhaps the blasts of a shofar did seem more appropriate than a trumpet for
comparison. King Ahmose I, in his "Tempest Stela" at Karnak said that, when
a terrible
rainstorm struck Egypt with darkness coming from the west, the din was
"louder than the cries of the masses" or "the noise of the cataract which is
at Elephantine". In other words, "a deafening roar".
o8TY
Yes it was the Ramesses account. Still the earliest drawn depictions of
trumpets are to the 18th D, beginning with the tomb of Ahmose.
But the sound seems to have been described not as a "rumbling", as perhaps
was widely known from earthquakes, but as a sound blast. One particular
phenomena of an erupting volcano is that chunks of rock can be sent flying
through the air at speeds greater than the speed of sound, which creates a
two-fold sonic boom, from the speed itself and also by the rock fracturing
under stress. The sound wave so created can travel great distances and
display all the characeristics of a continuous trumpet blast, especially
when reflected off nearby rock. It can also produce a ringing in the ears,
not unlike that eerie sound heard in one's head after loud music or a soccer
game with lots of shouting and trumpets, or even a recording of a volcanic
eruption. This ringing I would equate more with a metal trumpet, than one
made of bone, ivory, wood or even clay or rock. They just do not have the
same resonance.
As the Hebrew story was not written until long after the event, there was
plenty of time for them to access reference material from all round the
Mediterranean, even to travel to such known volcanic regions such as the
Aegean or Tyrrhenian Seas for first hand knowledge of eruptions. It is
difficult to accept that stories of this eruption were not circulating
around the Mediterannean by refugees, sailors and other interested parties,
for many centuries after the event. The memory of the sound was certainly
preserved in Aegean mythology with both Poseidon and Zeus being deemed
thunderers, and with the clash of the Titans, while several other Greek
words describe both the sound and appearance of an erupting volcano, though
this understanding may have been lost by classical times.
Italo
There may be some allusions to volcanoes in the myth of Typhon, which may
be of interest.
Homer makes a reference to a disaster that took place in the land of the
Arameans(Arimi) at a time before the Trojan war, with which he compares
the battlescene at Troy:
"So marched they then as though all the land were swept with fire; and the
earth groaned beneath them, as beneath Zeus that hurleth the thunderbolt
in his wrath, when he scourgeth the land about Typhoeus in the country of
the Arimi, where men say is the couch of Typhoeus. Even so the earth
groaned greatly beneath their tread as they went; and full swiftly did
they speed across the plain." [Illiad 2.780]
Typhon shares some characteristics with Polyphemus, who essentially is a
volcano, with his burning eye on top oh his forehead, throwing stones and
all.
"a horrid creature[the Cyclops], not like a human being at all, but
resembling rather some crag that stands out boldly against the sky on the
top of a high mountain" [Odyss.9.192]
Apollodorus tells the story of how Typhon chased the Gods to Egypt after
the defeat of the Gigantes (the sons of the earth, i.e. the autochthones).
Apollodorus in general doesn't try to much to explain the metaphores, so
his rendering may well be close to the original story:
"The defeat of the Gigantes by the gods angered Ge all the more, so she
had intercourse with Tartaros and bore Typhon in Kilikia. He was a mixture
of man and beast, the largest and strongest of all Ge's children. Down to
the thighs he was human in form, so large that he extended beyond all the
mountains while his head often touched even the stars. One hand reached to
the west, the other to the east, and attached to these were one hundred
heads of serpents. Also from the thighs down he had great coils of vipers,
which extended to the top of his head and hissed mightily. All of his body
was winged, and the hair that flowed in the wind from his head and cheeks
was matted and dirty. In his eyes flashed fire. Such were the appearance
and the size of Typhon as he hurled red-hot rocks at the sky itself, and
set out for it with mixed hisses and shouts, as a great storm of fire
boiled forth from his mouth. When the gods saw him rushing toward the sky,
they headed for Aigyptos to escape him, , and as he pursued them, they
changed themselves into animal shapes. But Zeus from a distance hurled
thunderbolts at Typhon, and when he had drawn closer Zeus tried to strike
him down with a sickle made of adamant. Typhon took flight, but Zeus
stayed on his heels right up to Mount Kasium, which lies in Syria. Seeing
that he was badly wounded, Zeus fell on him with his hands. But Typhon
entwined the god and held him fast in his coils, and grabbing the sickle
he cut out the sinews from Zeus' hands and feet. Then, placing Zeus up on
his shoulders, he carried him across the sea to Kilikia, where he
deposited him in the Korykian cave. He also hid away the sinews there in
the skin of a bear, and posted as guard over them the
drakaina Delphyne. But Hermes and Aigipan stole back the sinews and
succeeded in replanting them in Zeus without being seen. So Zeus, again
possessed of his strength, suddenly appeared from the sky in a chariot
drawn by winged horses, and with thunderbolts chased Typhon to the
mountain called Nysa. There the Moirai deceived the pursued creature, for
he ate some of the ephemeral fruit on Nysa after they had persuaded him
that he would gain strength from it. Again pursued, he made his way to
Thrace, where while fighting round Haimos he threw whole mountains at
Zeus. But when these were pushed back upon him by the thunderbolt, a great
quantity of his blood streamed out on the mountain, which allegedly is why
the mountain is called Haimos. Then, as Typhon started to flee again
through the Sikilian Sea, Zeus brought down Sikilia's Mount Aitna on him,
a great mountain which they say still erupts fire from the thunderbolts
thrown by Zeus." -Apollodorus 1.6.3
No mention of Thera though..
Hesiod says that Typhon was born, not after the war with the Gigantes as
Apollodorus says, but after the battle of the Olympians vs. the older
Titians led by Atlas:
[Th.820]"But when Zeus had driven the Titans from heaven, huge Earth bore
her youngest child Typhoeus of the love of Tartarus, by the aid of golden
Aphrodite. Strength was with his hands in all that he did and the feet of
the strong god were untiring. From his shoulders [825] grew a hundred
heads of a snake, a fearful dragon, with dark, flickering tongues, and
from under the brows of his eyes in his marvellous heads flashed fire, and
fire burned from his heads as he glared. And there were voices in all his
dreadful heads [830] which uttered every kind of sound unspeakable; for at
one time they made sounds such that the gods understood, but at another,
the noise of a bull bellowing aloud in proud ungovernable fury; and at
another, the sound of a lion, relentless of heart; and at another, sounds
like whelps, wonderful to hear; [835] and again, at another, he would
hiss, so that the high mountains re-echoed. And truly a thing past help
would have happened on that day, and he would have come to reign over
mortals and immortals, had not the father of men and gods been quick to
perceive it. But he thundered hard and mightily: and the earth around
[840] resounded terribly and the wide heaven above, and the sea and
Ocean's streams and the nether parts of the earth. Great Olympus reeled
beneath the divine feet of the king as he arose and earth groaned thereat.
And through the two of them heat took hold on the dark-blue sea, [845]
through the thunder and lightning, and through the fire from the monster,
and the scorching winds and blazing thunderbolt. The whole earth seethed,
and sky and sea: and the long waves raged along the beaches round and
about at the rush of the deathless gods: and there arose an endless
shaking."
Maybe the escape of the Gods to Egypt hints at the same legend as Tacitus:
"Some say that the Jews were fugitives from the island of Crete, who
settled on the nearest coast of Africa about the time when Saturn was
driven from his throne by the power of Jupiter."[Hist.5.2]
The same was said about the Pelasgans who went with Saturn to Italy after
being deposed by Zeus. According to Dionysius Halicarnassus [1.11.2]
Pelasgans arrived in Italy seventeen generations before the Trojan war,
which would be about 1529 to 1699BC (if the Trojan war is put at 1189BC
and a generation is 20 to 30 years).
(for comparison; the Parian Marble seems to date the Deucalion flood to
1529 BC)
It would be interesting to know if any of the locations Apollodorus
mentions -Mt.Kasium, Mt.Nysa, the Haimos in Thrace- once had volcanic
activity. Mt.Casium(or Casius) has to be the the mountain on the coast of
Egypt, east of Pelusium, modern Ras Kasaroun.
Herodotus mentions Mt.Casius:
[3.5.1] "Now the only apparent way of entry into Egypt is this. The road
runs from Phoenicia as far as the borders of the city of Cadytis[Gaza],
which belongs to the so-called Syrians of Palestine. From Cadytis -which,
as I judge, is a city not much smaller than Sardis- to the city of Ienysus
the seaports belong to the Arabians; then they are Syrian again from
Ienysus as far as the Serbonian marsh, beside which the Casian promontory
stretches seawards; from this Serbonian marsh, where Typho is supposed to
have been hidden, the country is Egypt. Now between Ienysus and the Casian
mountain and the Serbonian marsh there lies a wide territory for as much
as three days' journey, terribly arid."
Maybe Mt.Nysa is the same as Mt.Casius? :
"..Typhaon, when he had offered violence to Zeus and been struck by his
thunder-bolt, dropped warm blood from his head, and so made his way to the
mountains and plain of Nysa, where he lies to this day, engulfed in the
waters of the Serbonian Lake." 泡rgonautica 2.1206
If Mt.Casius was once volcanic active it may be where the biblical pillar
of smoke and fire was located. This then would place the Sea of Reeds at
Lake Serbonis (of which Diodorus says that whole armies perished in it's
quicksand).
Italo
>
<snip>
> Mt.Casium(or Casius) has to be the the mountain on the coast of
> Egypt, east of Pelusium, modern Ras Kasaroun.
Oops, Ras Kasaroun may be the site of the city Casium. Mt.Casium and the
Casiotis region to the east from this city.
>
Agamemnon
"Italo" <cuNOca...@home.nl> wrote in message
news:3EDF1182...@home.nl...
> o8TY schreef:
> >
> There may be some allusions to volcanoes in the myth of Typhon, which may
> be of interest.
>
>
> Homer makes a reference to a disaster that took place in the land of the
> Arameans(Arimi) at a time before the Trojan war, with which he compares
> the battlescene at Troy:
>
> "So marched they then as though all the land were swept with fire; and the
> earth groaned beneath them, as beneath Zeus that hurleth the thunderbolt
> in his wrath, when he scourgeth the land about Typhoeus in the country of
> the Arimi, where men say is the couch of Typhoeus. Even so the earth
> groaned greatly beneath their tread as they went; and full swiftly did
> they speed across the plain." [Illiad 2.780]
Typhon was defeated in 1628 BC.
>
>
> Typhon shares some characteristics with Polyphemus, who essentially is a
> volcano, with his burning eye on top oh his forehead, throwing stones and
> all.
TWADDLE.
>
> "a horrid creature[the Cyclops], not like a human being at all, but
> resembling rather some crag that stands out boldly against the sky on the
> top of a high mountain" [Odyss.9.192]
Polyphemus the Cyclops was a watch tower with some sort of search light or
even a mirror telescope.
Thera was extinct when Apollodorus wrote so the places were changed.
>
>
> Hesiod says that Typhon was born, not after the war with the Gigantes as
> Apollodorus says, but after the battle of the Olympians vs. the older
> Titians led by Atlas:
Well of course he does. Typhon had to have enough time to grow up and reach
adulthood.
This is an identification of the Hyksos as having originated from Crete.
>
> The same was said about the Pelasgans who went with Saturn to Italy after
> being deposed by Zeus. According to Dionysius Halicarnassus [1.11.2]
> Pelasgans arrived in Italy seventeen generations before the Trojan war,
> which would be about 1529 to 1699BC (if the Trojan war is put at 1189BC
> and a generation is 20 to 30 years).
>
1618 BC +/-85 years.
Trojan war began in 1193 BC, unless you count the start from the abduction
of Helen 10 years earlier.
> (for comparison; the Parian Marble seems to date the Deucalion flood to
> 1529 BC)
>
The first Deukalion flood occurred in 1628 BC, the second in 1459 BC. The
dates are absolute certainties.
>
> It would be interesting to know if any of the locations Apollodorus
> mentions -Mt.Kasium, Mt.Nysa, the Haimos in Thrace- once had volcanic
> activity. Mt.Casium(or Casius) has to be the the mountain on the coast of
> Egypt, east of Pelusium, modern Ras Kasaroun.
>
>
> Herodotus mentions Mt.Casius:
>
> [3.5.1] "Now the only apparent way of entry into Egypt is this. The road
> runs from Phoenicia as far as the borders of the city of Cadytis[Gaza],
> which belongs to the so-called Syrians of Palestine. From Cadytis -which,
> as I judge, is a city not much smaller than Sardis- to the city of Ienysus
> the seaports belong to the Arabians; then they are Syrian again from
> Ienysus as far as the Serbonian marsh, beside which the Casian promontory
> stretches seawards; from this Serbonian marsh, where Typho is supposed to
> have been hidden, the country is Egypt. Now between Ienysus and the Casian
> mountain and the Serbonian marsh there lies a wide territory for as much
> as three days' journey, terribly arid."
>
>
> Maybe Mt.Nysa is the same as Mt.Casius? :
>
> "..Typhaon, when he had offered violence to Zeus and been struck by his
> thunder-bolt, dropped warm blood from his head, and so made his way to the
> mountains and plain of Nysa, where he lies to this day, engulfed in the
> waters of the Serbonian Lake." -Argonautica 2.1206
Herodotus says "have been hidden". Typhon hid and then fled further on.
Eric Stevens
A better explanation may be provided by one or more Tunguska-like
events. Astronomers (Clube, Napier, Baillie et al) have recently
identified a period of intense meteor bombardment circa the bronze
age. The stories have come down to us but what lies behind them has
been lost in the millenia. For example, the old stories talk of
"bolts" but as in Italo's quote from Homer, they have been translated
as "thunderbolts" as being more readily comprehensible.
It is a common misapprehension that meteors make holes in the ground
but that applies only to the **very** large ones or to slower meteors.
Most meteors are high-speed and the stresses of their impact with the
atmosphere cause them to burst at altitudes typically between 15 and 8
km. The following quote is from the book "Rain of Ice and Fire" by
John S Lewis and is a reconstruction of an event which occurred to
Constantinople in AD. 472
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It was a warm, clear afternoon in the capital. The bustle of
metropolitan commerce and tourism filled the streets. Small sailing
vessels dotted the sheltered waters within sight of the government
buildings, riding on a soft southerly breeze. The Sun sparkled on the
gentle swells and wakes, lending a luminous glow to the poppies and
tulips nodding in the parks along the water's edge. All was in order.
But suddenly the sky brightened as if with a second, more brilliant
Sun. A second set of shadows appeared; at first long and faint, they
shortened and sharpened rapidly. A strange hissing, humming sound
seemed to come from everywhere at once. Thousands craned their necks
and looked upward, searching the sky for the new Sun. Above them a
tremendous white fireball blossomed, like the unfolding of a vast
paper flower, but now blindingly bright. For several seconds the
fierce fireball dominated the sky, shaming the Sun. The sky burned
white-hot, then slowly faded through yellow and orange to a glowering
copper-red. The awful hissing ceased. The onlookers, blinded by the
flash, burned by its searing heat, covered their eyes and cringed in
terror. Occupants of offices and apartments rushed to their windows,
searching the sky for the source of the brilliant flare that had lit
their rooms. A great blanket of turbulent, coppery cloud filled half
the sky overhead. For a dozen heartbeats the city was awestruck,
numbed and silent. Then, without warning, a tremendous blast smote the
city, knocking pedestrians to the ground. Shuttered doors and windows
blew out; fences, walls, and roofs groaned and cracked. A shock wave
raced across the city and its waterways, knocking sailboats flat in
the water. A hot, sulfurous wind like an open door into hell, the
breath of a cosmic ironmaker's furnace, pressed downward from the sky,
filled with the endless reverberation of invisible landslides. Then
the hot breath slowed and paused; the normal breeze resumed with
renewed vigor, and cool air blew across the city from the south. The
sky overhead now faded to dark gray, then to a portentous black. A
turbulent black cloud like a rumpled sheet seemed to descend from
heaven. Fine black dust began to fall, slowly, gently, suspended and
swirled by the breeze. For an hour or more the black dust fell, until,
dissipated and dispersed by the breeze, the cloud faded from view.
Many thought it was the end of the world. . .
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This provides all that is required - heat, fire, tremendously loud
noises etc. In fact the Bible etc is full of this kind of event (and
priests have been trying to explain what it means ever since).
It is interesting to do a Google search on <rain of ice and fire>.
http://chabadonline.com/scripts/tgij/paper/Article.asp?ArticleID=2753
"When rain does falls in Egypt, it falls as hail--hail that is ice
without and fire within. Thus the Torah describes the seventh
of the "ten plagues" to visit the Egyptians:
And G-d rained hail upon the land of Egypt. And there
was hail, and fire burning within the hail... (Exodus 9:23-24)
But then turn it into a specific search string "rain of ice and fire"
and one gets:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=re+8&version=bbe
http://www.christianisrael.com/basic_english/B19C018.htm the psalm:
"\18:13\The Lord made thunder in the heavens, and the voice of the
Highest was sounding out: a rain of ice and fire."
and then there is the book of Revelations:
http://www.carlsbadnm.com/hank/rev6-10.htm
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
<agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>The first Deukalion flood occurred in 1628 BC, the second in 1459 BC. The
>dates are absolute certainties.
Upon what do you base your certainties?
Eric Stevens
Agamemnon
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
news:5egvdvc540ebftca9...@4ax.com...
The Traditional Chronology.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
The URL refers to Noah's flood but in 1627 which is one year different
from the one you have quoted. It also mention's Deucalion's flood but
in 1460.
The basis forthe date of Noah's flood is stated to be the bible.
The basis for the date of Deucalion's flood is not stated but
obviously it has emerged from Greek mythology.
I would say your absolute certainty is not justified.
Eric Stevens
o8TY
The following quote is from the book "Rain of Ice and Fire" by
> John S Lewis and is a reconstruction of an event which occurred to
> Constantinople in AD. 472
>
With all respect, Eric, piling fiction upon fiction is amusing but of no
great relevence.
Marianne Luban
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
news:ke30ev8mnc3u3cbn6...@4ax.com...
Here is a URL that describes the chronological conflict over the eruption of
Thera--although many other websites do, as well.
http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/sciem2000/Pr08thera.html
The tradition of Manetho says that Deucalion's Flood took place in the time
of the pharaoh, Misphragmoutosis. This last is a garbled
"MenkheperreThutmosis", meaning Thutmose III. However, it just so happens
that kings Ahmose I and Thutmose III were often confused by the ancient
historians and my book tells why in great detail.
This is very crucial to understanding the subject of an exodus from Egypt.
From this and the "Tempest Stela" we can understand that
terrible weather was visited upon Egypt in the time of Ahmose that caused a
lot of flooding the aftermath of which Ahmose had to deal with. And then
there is that pumice discussed in the above URL from his time. Can the
reign of Ahmose I be moved back from ca. 1570 BCE to 1628? Not easily--for
several reasons and these are mathematical markers supplied by ancient
sources, including the Bible. No matter what came before and when, we still
have to wind up at ca. 1000 BCE for the building of Solomon's Great Temple.
Plus, Josephus,
although he made some errors in logic when dealing with
exodus matters, seemed pretty positive that the one he believed in occurred
430 years after Abraham. The earliest Abraham can have existed is 2000
BCE--and 430 years later comes to 1570 BCE. If the Book of Exodus did not
get most of the "signs and wonders" from the devastating eruption of Thera,
then from what? What else can have disturbed the atmospheric conditions so
much that virtually rainless Upper Egypt was subjected to such a deluge that
the land was actually flooded? Now every few years there was actually some
rainfall in Upper Egypt and the low-lying regions near mountainous parts
like the Valley of the Kings were subjected to flash floods. But these were
never thought remarkable and they are the reason pits called "wells" were
dug near the entrances of the tombs in the Valley--to catch the flood
waters. But in the time of Ahmose, it is clear from his record that the
flooding was much more severe .
Agamemnon
> On Fri, 6 Jun 2003 01:10:39 +0100, "Agamemnon"
> <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
> >news:5egvdvc540ebftca9...@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:45:58 +0100, "Agamemnon"
> >> <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> >>
> >> >The first Deukalion flood occurred in 1628 BC, the second in 1459 BC.
The
> >> >dates are absolute certainties.
> >>
> >> Upon what do you base your certainties?
> >
> >The Traditional Chronology.
> >
> >http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
> >
>
> The URL refers to Noah's flood but in 1627 which is one year different
> from the one you have quoted.
Its actually 1627 in the Hebrew calendar which begins 4 months earlier in
September. In the present callender that would still be 1628. The exact
biblical date is July 1628 BC.
>It also mention's Deucalion's flood but
> in 1460.
I rounded it up. Summer 1460 to Summer 1459 BC Greek callender. That's why
they could never agree weather it was in the reign of Cecrops or Cranaus who
reigned in 1458.5 BC (Summer of 1459).
>
> The basis forthe date of Noah's flood is stated to be the bible.
The Noah's flood story is a plagirisation of the original Deukalion story
and the Thera eruption.
> The basis for the date of Deucalion's flood is not stated but
> obviously it has emerged from Greek mythology.
Deukalion II was the Hittite king Tudhaliya II. The basis is absoulte.
>
> I would say your absolute certainty is not justified.
You cant erase Tudhaliya II from history. It is an absolute certainty.
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
Agamemnon
Says Who ? It's not in Josephus.
> "MenkheperreThutmosis", meaning Thutmose III. However, it just so happens
> that kings Ahmose I and Thutmose III were often confused by the ancient
> historians and my book tells why in great detail.
Mephramuthosis 1546-1520 (25.10) was Belus or Amenhotep I 1551/46-1524
(27/22).
Manetho was garbled to death by Josephus.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/Manetho.htm
> This is very crucial to understanding the subject of an exodus from Egypt.
>
> From this and the "Tempest Stela" we can understand that
> terrible weather was visited upon Egypt in the time of Ahmose that caused
a
> lot of flooding the aftermath of which Ahmose had to deal with. And then
> there is that pumice discussed in the above URL from his time. Can the
> reign of Ahmose I be moved back from ca. 1570 BCE to 1628? Not
easily--for
> several reasons and these are mathematical markers supplied by ancient
> sources, including the Bible. No matter what came before and when, we
still
> have to wind up at ca. 1000 BCE for the building of Solomon's Great
Temple.
> Plus, Josephus,
> although he made some errors in logic when dealing with
> exodus matters, seemed pretty positive that the one he believed in
occurred
> 430 years after Abraham. The earliest Abraham can have existed is 2000
> BCE--and 430 years later comes to 1570 BCE. If the Book of Exodus did not
HOGWASH. The bible denotes years as FRACTIONS, i.e. seasons,
equinoxes/solstices etc. PROVEN FACT and IRREFUTABLE.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/EstablishChronology.htm
The Exodus was in 1193 BC. (September 1194 Hebrew calendar)
Marianne Luban
>
> "Marianne Luban" <mluba...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:ZY2Ea.36923$Io.32...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> >
eruption
> of
> > Thera--although many other websites do, as well.
> >
> > http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/sciem2000/Pr08thera.html
> >
> > The tradition of Manetho says that Deucalion's Flood took place in the
> time
> > of the pharaoh, Misphragmoutosis. This last is a garbled
>
> Says Who ? It's not in Josephus.
No, it isn't. There are other quoters of Manetho besides Josephus. This
information is from the monk Syncellus,
according to Julius Sextus Africanus, quite a reliable historian.
> > "MenkheperreThutmosis", meaning Thutmose III. However, it just so
happens
> > that kings Ahmose I and Thutmose III were often confused by the ancient
> > historians and my book tells why in great detail.
>
> Mephramuthosis 1546-1520 (25.10) was Belus or Amenhotep I 1551/46-1524
> (27/22).
Misphragmoutosis (or Mephramutosis ) definitely refers
to MenkheperreThutmosis", the prenomen and nomen of
Thutmose the Third. This has been long established. It
is due to Egyptian /x/ and /S/ being dialectally interchangeable.
Therefore, in another Egyptian dialect,
"Mnxprra" or Menkheperre would have been vocalized
"Mensheperre"--except not quite, as Egyptian /n/ was one of those graphemes
that quite usually became assimilated into the next consonant, so that the
first element came
out "M'shpr(r)a". Greeks can't say or write "sh", so it becomes "Mis". The
"g" one sees written in some (but not all) the Greek renderings is a
naturally occurring sound that somehow crept into the pronunciation of the
nomen (DHwtymes), which underwent metathesis (switching of elements), a not
uncommon thing in Egyptian as Coptic, the ultimate stage of the language
serves to testify. "Thummosis" was meant--not "mutosis". Yes, "Tummos"
is what "DHwtyms" eventually boiled down to in vulgar speech --something
like the term "brother" coming down
to "bubba" in the American south.
Agamemnon
If you want to play games like that then
Amenhotep was known as Nefer-kheferu-re
-Meph-ra-mutho(sis) in reverse is mutho-meph-ra = Nefer-kheferu-re
-in Greek, O Kheferu-re Neferosis = biblical king Nimrod or Nefrod
What is all boils down it is weather Mytho is Men or Nefer. To anyone who
speak Greek it is clear it is Nefer.
Eric Stevens
<mluba...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
>news:ke30ev8mnc3u3cbn6...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 6 Jun 2003 01:10:39 +0100, "Agamemnon"
>> <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
>> >news:5egvdvc540ebftca9...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:45:58 +0100, "Agamemnon"
>> >> <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >The first Deukalion flood occurred in 1628 BC, the second in 1459 BC.
>The
>> >> >dates are absolute certainties.
>> >>
>> >> Upon what do you base your certainties?
>> >
>> >The Traditional Chronology.
>> >
>> >http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
>> >
>>
>> The URL refers to Noah's flood but in 1627 which is one year different
>> from the one you have quoted. It also mention's Deucalion's flood but
>> in 1460.
>>
>> The basis forthe date of Noah's flood is stated to be the bible.
>> The basis for the date of Deucalion's flood is not stated but
>> obviously it has emerged from Greek mythology.
>>
>> I would say your absolute certainty is not justified.
My point was that while I accepted the general chronolgy, Agamemnon's
attribution of "absolute certainty" is just ridiculous. The only thing
about which we can be absolutely certain is the uncertainty.
I recommend that you read Mike Baillie's 'Exodus to Arthur'. He
devotes some time to discussing this very question in the light of
energing paleoclimatic (etc) information.
>Now every few years there was actually some
>rainfall in Upper Egypt and the low-lying regions near mountainous parts
>like the Valley of the Kings were subjected to flash floods. But these were
>never thought remarkable and they are the reason pits called "wells" were
>dug near the entrances of the tombs in the Valley--to catch the flood
>waters. But in the time of Ahmose, it is clear from his record that the
>flooding was much more severe .
>
>
>THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding
>the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt YOU WILL NEVER THINK OF THE EXODUS IN THE
>SAME WAY AGAIN! http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.html
>
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
<agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
It was the "absolute certainty" of the dates I was querying.
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
The only 'fiction' is in the reconstruction of the Constantinople
event. Lewis was not there at the time and those who were present
would not have understood what they were experiencing. I quoted it to
make the point that this type of event might well provide an
explanation for phenomena discussed earlier in the thread.
Eric Stevens
Agamemnon
The dates are as given by Castor. The base line for Castor and all other
Greek chronology has been fixed for millennia. First Olympiad = 776 BC,
Trojan War 1193 BC. The bibles chronology is fixed to the same base line as
set out by Apollonius in 262 BC since the bible was plagiarised from Greek
translations of Egyptians texts placed in Library of Alexandria at this
time.
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
Marianne Luban
"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
Why is a knowledge of the ancient Egyptian language
and linguistics in general "playing games"? Obviously,
none of this makes sense to you--because you lack
a background in both.
> Amenhotep was known as Nefer-kheferu-re
Do you mean Neferkheperure by some chance? That
was the prenomen of Amenhotep IV--later Akhenaten.
>
> -Meph-ra-mutho(sis) in reverse is mutho-meph-ra = >Nefer-kheferu-re
Actually, it is "ohtum-ar-hpem". Anyway, what you are proposing makes no
sense at all. You are the only one playing games.
>
> -in Greek, O Kheferu-re Neferosis = biblical king Nimrod or Nefrod
Just gibberish spoken here, I'm afraid.
> What is all boils down it is weather Mytho is Men or >Nefer. To anyone who
> speak Greek it is clear it is Nefer.
It is clear that you one pot short in your set of
canopic jars.
--
Agamemnon
HYPOCRITE. You were the one telling us that it was perfectly acceptable to
transfer one pharaohs epithet to another.
>
> >
> > -Meph-ra-mutho(sis) in reverse is mutho-meph-ra = >Nefer-kheferu-re
>
> Actually, it is "ohtum-ar-hpem". Anyway, what you are proposing makes no
> sense at all. You are the only one playing games.
Not in hieroglyphics. The symbols could be in any order. Kheferu-re Nefer =
Nefer-kheferu-re.
>
> >
> > -in Greek, O Kheferu-re Neferosis = biblical king Nimrod or Nefrod
>
> Just gibberish spoken here, I'm afraid.
You are the one talking gibberish. The bibles own chronology PROVE I am
right. Cainan (1544.125-1536 BC) and Nimrod both date to the same generation
and the same year as Amenhotep I.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/ChronologyB.htm
>
> > What is all boils down it is weather Mytho is Men or >Nefer. To anyone
who
> > speak Greek it is clear it is Nefer.
>
> It is clear that you one pot short in your set of
> canopic jars.
Your are talking about your own self.
Eric Stevens
<agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>> It was the "absolute certainty" of the dates I was querying.
>
>The dates are as given by Castor. The base line for Castor and all other
>Greek chronology has been fixed for millennia. First Olympiad = 776 BC,
>Trojan War 1193 BC. The bibles chronology is fixed to the same base line as
>set out by Apollonius in 262 BC since the bible was plagiarised from Greek
>translations of Egyptians texts placed in Library of Alexandria at this
>time.
Castor is not infallible. You may choose to regard that dating as
infallible but that becomes a matter of faith.
Certainly the bible's chronology is very much open to debare. So too
isthe chronology of much of the rest of the ancient world.
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
I have already replied to this once but I have since come across an
article by Moe Mandelkehr which may be relevant. The 2002:2 issue of
the SIS review published an article by Mandelkehr titled
"Commemoration of the 2300BC Event"
Part of it is very relevant to the discussion earlier in this thread
based on the quotation from Exodus about "...there were thunders and
lightenings and a thick cloud upon the mountain, and the voice of a
horn exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp
trembled." etc. etc.
Mendelkehr was writing about the events likely to be associated with a
probable massive meteor bombardment c 2300 BC. He leads into this with
a discussion of the physical phenomena **known** to be associated with
the arrival of larger meteors (much bigger than most of us have ever
experienced) and then goes on to write:
[Begin quote]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Primitive people can experience irrational fear from even relatively
limited meteroroid falls - e.g. a large meteoroid fall in AD 1296 near
Velikii Ustuig in Russia [23]:
前n the second week at noon there suddenly appeared over
the town of Ustiug a dark cloud and it was as dark as the
night. The people of the town upon seeing such a miracle
were unable to comprehend what it was. And after this there
appeared great clouds rising from all four sides and from
these clouds lightning kept flashing ceaselessly. And it
thundered over the town of Ustiug so strongly and horribly
that it was impossible to hear people talk. Even the ground
seemed to sway continuously and shake as if terrified by
this horror. And clouds of fire arose and collided with one
another; great heat arose from the lightnin and fiery thunder.
According to the contemporary report, this 'stony swarm' fell into the
forest near the town. It was commemorated religiously until the early
20th century.
A second meteoroid fall in AD 1662 on Novye Ergi, another town in
Russia [24], was recored by a local priest:
選n the year ... after sunset, in our village of Novye Ergi and
on the neighboring farms, many people saw in the clouds a
terrible apparition; the sun had barely set, when from the
place where it had set there suddenly arose a great star
which looked like lightning in the sky. The sky was cleaved
into two parts with the speed of lightning and remained thus
for about one-half hour, and there was indescribable light,
like fire, and many saw darkly outlined in this light a huge
image of a man. The head and eyes and outstretched arms
and legs were all fiery. And the cold at this time was great
and the air was clear and quiet. Afterwards a small cloud
appeared where the image had been. The sky seemed to
close and fire fell upon the earth into many courtyards,
upon roads and houses, like flaming bundles of flax, and
when people ran from it, it rolled after them but did not bum
anyone. Then it rose into the cloud and from this cloud
there poured forth noise and smoke, like thunder or like a
great terrible storm. For a long time the earth and houses
shook and many people fell to the ground in terror. All the
animals crowded together, choking on their fodder, raised
their heads toward the sky and bellowed ... Then stones
started falling, shining bright, large and small ones, all hot.
And some of them burst from the heat, scattering fire over
people and beasts'.
Compare this with the description of the battle between Zeus and the
Titans in Hesiod's Theogany [25]. It started:
... the earth crashed aloud
and the wide sky resounded
as it was shaken and the quenchless crashing of their feet
and their powerful missiles.
So either against either they threw
their re-echoing weapons
and the noise of either side out crying
went up to the starry
heaven as with great war crying
They drove at each other
Now Zeus no longer held in his strength,
but here his heart filled
deep with fury, and now he showed
his violence entire
and indiscriminately. Out of the sky
and off Olympus he moved flashing his fires incessantly,
and the thunderbolts,
the crashing of them and the blaze
together came flying one after another
from his ponderous hand,
and spinning whirls of inhuman
flame, and with it the earth,
the giver of life, cried out
aloud as she burned, and the vast forests
in the fire screamed.
All earth was boiling with it,
and the courses of the Ocean
and the barren sea, and the steam
and the heat of it was engulfing
the Titans of the earth, while the flames
went up to the bright sky
unquenchably, and the blaze
and the glare of thunder and lightning blinded the eyes of
the Titan gods,
for all they were mighty.
The wonderful conflagration crushed Chaos,
and to the eyes' seeing
and ears' hearing the clamour of it, it absolutely
would have seemed as if Earth
and the wide Heaven above her
had collided, for such would have been
the crash arising
as Earth wrecked and the sky came piling down
on top of her, so vast was the crash heard
as the gods collided in battle.
The winds brought on with their roaring
a quake of the earth and dust storm,
with thunder and with lightning,
and the blazing thunderbolt
the weapons thrown by great Zeus,
and they carried the clamour
and outcry between the hosts opposed,
and a horrible tumult of grisly battle uprose
The important point is that in a large meteoroid fall, an observer can
receive overpowering and disorienting visual, audible and mechanical
stimuli from a large area, even if he is not directly subjected to
nearby low altitude fragmentation. If Earth encountered a mass of
meteoroids, the words 疎wesome', 奏errifying', 租evastating',
祖haotic' and 双verpowering' would be inadequate to describe the
experience.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
End quote
The kind of bombardment Mandelkehr is discussing is not a shower of
pretty lights in the sky but multiple Tunguska scale events, the like
of which have only been experienced in our lifetime by the inhabitents
of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. One should read the Theogony with the
possibility in mind that this is what Hesiod was trying to describe.
But how could he? He had not the faintest idea of what he was trying
to describe. But then, neither did the authors of Exodus, let alone
all those people since who have been trying to interpret these
apocryphal writings in a meaningful way. My personal opinion is that
solitary volcanoes are not even in the race.
Mandelkehr goes on to explain that there is good eveidence for and
good reason why such meteoric bombardments should be accompanied by
catastrophic flooding. e.g Halley's comet loses 10,000 tons of water
per day when it is near the sun. If it can sustain that magnitude of
loss, just consider the impact (if that is the best word in the
circumstances) even a small fragment might have on the local catchment
area.
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
<eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote:
> Halley's comet loses 10,000 tons of water
>per day when it is near the sun.
Oops - 100,000 tons per day.
Eric Stevens
Marianne Luban
"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:bbrm9o$v22$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Marianne Luban" <mluba...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:NraEa.37677$Io.32...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
(snip)
> > > Amenhotep was known as Nefer-kheferu-re
> > Do you mean Neferkheperure by some chance? That
> > was the prenomen of Amenhotep IV--later Akhenaten.
>
> HYPOCRITE. You were the one telling us that it was perfectly acceptable to
> transfer one pharaohs epithet to another.
No, I definitely never said this. (But if you can directly
quote me, go ahead.) Some pharaohs had the same prenomina and "epithets",
however. But how does that signify here? "Misphragmoutosis" refers to
Thutmose III--no question about it--who was confused by the ancient
historians with Ahmose I--and it wasn't because their prenomina sounded
alike. It doesn't take a rocket
scientist to figure out why they were confused--although I have never read
anything by a modern scholar discussing this phenomenon. That is why I have
undertaken to do so in my book.
> > > -Meph-ra-mutho(sis) in reverse is mutho-meph-ra = >Nefer-kheferu-re
> >
> > Actually, it is "ohtum-ar-hpem". Anyway, what you are proposing makes
no
> > sense at all. You are the only one playing games.
>
> Not in hieroglyphics. The symbols could be in any order. Kheferu-re Nefer
=
> Nefer-kheferu-re.
> > > -in Greek, O Kheferu-re Neferosis = biblical king Nimrod or Nefrod
According to what ancient source? Oh, I see. It is *your* idea of who is
meant by "Misphragmoutosis".
"Neferosis" is mentioned nowhere and doesn't appear
anything like "Misphragmoutosis". And, BTW, the
name Neferkheperure sounded to foreigners like
"Naphurria"--which is pretty much right. (Hint: what
is written "nfr" was not vocalized "nefer", that's for
sure. It is just a case of putting the default vowel "e"
between the consonants, as is done in Budge's old
Egyptian dictionary and by Egyptology in general.) "nfr" was spoken "nofe",
as anyone familiar with Egyptian phonology will readily attest.
o8TY
But the pillar of smoke by day and the column of fire by night hardly
equates with a short-term Tunguska event. Neither do the events that took
place on the mountain.
Agamemnon
> On Fri, 6 Jun 2003 23:53:19 +1000, "o8TY" <o8...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> End quote
>
> The kind of bombardment Mandelkehr is discussing is not a shower of
> pretty lights in the sky but multiple Tunguska scale events, the like
> of which have only been experienced in our lifetime by the inhabitents
> of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. One should read the Theogony with the
> possibility in mind that this is what Hesiod was trying to describe.
Hesiod did not write Theogony. It was one of his successors.
> But how could he? He had not the faintest idea of what he was trying
> to describe. But then, neither did the authors of Exodus, let alone
RUBBISH. Psudo-Hesiod knew exactly what he was describing. A WAR !
The traditional date for this war 1684-1674 BC since Inachus reigned in 1684
BC corresponds to the date of the destruction of the Cretan Palaces at
Knossos c.1700 BC.
> all those people since who have been trying to interpret these
> apocryphal writings in a meaningful way. My personal opinion is that
> solitary volcanoes are not even in the race.
>
> Mandelkehr goes on to explain that there is good eveidence for and
> good reason why such meteoric bombardments should be accompanied by
> catastrophic flooding. e.g Halley's comet loses 10,000 tons of water
> per day when it is near the sun. If it can sustain that magnitude of
> loss, just consider the impact (if that is the best word in the
> circumstances) even a small fragment might have on the local catchment
> area.
HOGWASH. If it was something to do with nature it was probably due to
earthquakes caused by the Thera volcano which was ready to explode.
>
>
> Eric Stevens
Agamemnon
>
>
>
> "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> news:bbrm9o$v22$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Marianne Luban" <mluba...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:NraEa.37677$Io.32...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> (snip)
> > > > Amenhotep was known as Nefer-kheferu-re
>
> > > Do you mean Neferkheperure by some chance? That
> > > was the prenomen of Amenhotep IV--later Akhenaten.
> >
> > HYPOCRITE. You were the one telling us that it was perfectly acceptable
to
> > transfer one pharaohs epithet to another.
>
> No, I definitely never said this. (But if you can directly
> quote me, go ahead.) Some pharaohs had the same prenomina and "epithets",
> however. But how does that signify here? "Misphragmoutosis" refers to
> Thutmose III--no question about it--who was confused by the ancient
> historians with Ahmose I--and it wasn't because their prenomina sounded
> alike. It doesn't take a rocket
> scientist to figure out why they were confused--although I have never read
> anything by a modern scholar discussing this phenomenon. That is why I
have
> undertaken to do so in my book.
If if they can do it with Ahmose they can do it with Amenhotep.
>
> > > > -Meph-ra-mutho(sis) in reverse is mutho-meph-ra = >Nefer-kheferu-re
> > >
> > > Actually, it is "ohtum-ar-hpem". Anyway, what you are proposing makes
> no
> > > sense at all. You are the only one playing games.
> >
> > Not in hieroglyphics. The symbols could be in any order. Kheferu-re
Nefer
> =
> > Nefer-kheferu-re.
>
> > > > -in Greek, O Kheferu-re Neferosis = biblical king Nimrod or Nefrod
>
> According to what ancient source? Oh, I see. It is *your* idea of who is
> meant by "Misphragmoutosis".
Look at the length of reign Manetho attributes to him. The only pharaoh with
a similar length of reign is Amenhotop I. Tutmoses III reigned twice as
long.
> "Neferosis" is mentioned nowhere and doesn't appear
> anything like "Misphragmoutosis". And, BTW, the
> name Neferkheperure sounded to foreigners like
> "Naphurria"--which is pretty much right. (Hint: what
To a Greek it would have been corrupted to Neferosis which is a personal
dimuntive.
Marianne Luban
Well! I see you have offered no proof of my so-called
hypocrisy. Figures. Just fond of making derogatory statements without any
basis, are you then? I suppose you think it helps your "position". Well,
think again. What helps ones stance on anything is to make some SENSE in a
consistent fashion--not merely to grab at this and that, to throw in
anything including the kitchen sink as you seem to me to be doing. So
what's good for Ahmose I is good for Amenhotep? We'll see.
(snip)
> Look at the length of reign Manetho attributes to him. The only pharaoh
with
> a similar length of reign is Amenhotop I. Tutmoses III reigned twice as
> long.
Is this supposed to be an example of your logic? LOL!
First you harp on the premise that "Neferkheperure", the prenomen (throne
name) of Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten)
seems a good candidate for being "Misphragmoutosis".
Now, suddenly, you bring in a whole other Amenhotep--the first pharaoh by
that name--whose prenomen was "Djeserkare", BTW--because his last attested
regnal year (21) is not a far cry from the 25 (plus some months) given for
"Misphragmoutosis". Can you, languistically speaking, now offer some basis
why a man with a prenomen of Djeserkare would be "Misphragmoutosis"? Now
here comes something straight from the tradition of Manetho, according to
Africanus (via Syncellus the monk): "Total, according to Africanus, down to
the reign of Amosis, ALSO CALLED MISPHRAGMUTHOSIS, 69 years."
So, now we have established that other name for Ahmose--which is really the
name of Thutmose III. Now pay attention: Every time the ancient historians
say "Blank
also called Blank" , what they are really saying is that two kings are
confused for some reason. Yes, it is always so.
The same thing happens with "Sethos also called Ramesses". Why Sethos was
confused with someone named Ramesses is easily explained--and I do it in my
book. Therefore, it all boils down to this: The ancients
admitted that there was an "Amosis, also called Tethmosis, 26 years", as it
is written in the Book of Sothis. Got it now??? NOBODY named Amenhotep
was involved. The 26 years probably belong to Ahmose
and no one else.
> > "Neferosis" is mentioned nowhere and doesn't appear
> > anything like "Misphragmoutosis". And, BTW, the
> > name Neferkheperure sounded to foreigners like
> > "Naphurria"--which is pretty much right. (Hint: what
>
> To a Greek it would have been corrupted to Neferosis which is a personal
> dimuntive.
How do you know this--since no Greek source ever
mentions a "Neferosis"? Anyway, the prenomen of Akhenaten was never
mentioned to a Greek historian.
Reason why? It was forgotten. He was called something else entirely by
Ramesside times until the modern era when Tell el Amarna was discovered--and
I explain this
in my book, as well. I know what Akhenaten was called
and it certainly wasn't "Neferosis".
Agamemnon
HYPOCRITE !
>
> (snip)
> > Look at the length of reign Manetho attributes to him. The only pharaoh
> with
> > a similar length of reign is Amenhotop I. Tutmoses III reigned twice as
> > long.
>
> Is this supposed to be an example of your logic? LOL!
> First you harp on the premise that "Neferkheperure", the prenomen (throne
> name) of Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten)
> seems a good candidate for being "Misphragmoutosis".
> Now, suddenly, you bring in a whole other Amenhotep--the first pharaoh by
I always said it was Amenhotep I you IMBECILE.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/Manetho.htm
> that name--whose prenomen was "Djeserkare", BTW--because his last attested
> regnal year (21) is not a far cry from the 25 (plus some months) given for
> "Misphragmoutosis". Can you, languistically speaking, now offer some
basis
> why a man with a prenomen of Djeserkare would be "Misphragmoutosis"? Now
IRRELEVANT. Neferkheperure was an epithet used by all the Amenhoteps.
> here comes something straight from the tradition of Manetho, according to
> Africanus (via Syncellus the monk): "Total, according to Africanus, down
to
> the reign of Amosis, ALSO CALLED MISPHRAGMUTHOSIS, 69 years."
> So, now we have established that other name for Ahmose--which is really
the
> name of Thutmose III. Now pay attention: Every time the ancient
historians
> say "Blank
> also called Blank" , what they are really saying is that two kings are
> confused for some reason. Yes, it is always so.
> The same thing happens with "Sethos also called Ramesses". Why Sethos was
> confused with someone named Ramesses is easily explained--and I do it in
my
> book. Therefore, it all boils down to this: The ancients
CRAP. There was NO SUCH confusion except in your puny mind. Read the texts
properly.
> admitted that there was an "Amosis, also called Tethmosis, 26 years", as
it
NO THEY DID NOT. This is your false reading of Josephus who makes scrambled
eggs out of Manetho. Josephus cant even add up, he thinks that brothers and
sisters ruled after each other when they actually ruled together and he cant
even put the pharaohs in their correct order and spells Tutmoses in 4
different ways because Josephus is the work of at least 4 different authors
who added things on to the original text.
Maethos chronology is deciphered here.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/Manetho.htm
> is written in the Book of Sothis. Got it now??? NOBODY named Amenhotep
> was involved. The 26 years probably belong to Ahmose
> and no one else.
HOGWASH.
>
> > > "Neferosis" is mentioned nowhere and doesn't appear
> > > anything like "Misphragmoutosis". And, BTW, the
> > > name Neferkheperure sounded to foreigners like
> > > "Naphurria"--which is pretty much right. (Hint: what
> >
> > To a Greek it would have been corrupted to Neferosis which is a personal
> > dimuntive.
>
> How do you know this--since no Greek source ever
> mentions a "Neferosis"? Anyway, the prenomen of Akhenaten was never
> mentioned to a Greek historian.
WRONG. The Septuagint mentions him and calls him Nefrod.
> Reason why? It was forgotten. He was called something else entirely by
> Ramesside times until the modern era when Tell el Amarna was
discovered--and
> I explain this
> in my book, as well. I know what Akhenaten was called
> and it certainly wasn't "Neferosis".
IMBECILE. It was Amenhotep I who was Nimrod/Nefrod/Mephramuthosis. Akhenaten
was called Cepheus. Amenhotep III was called Amon as was Amenhotep II.
Tutmoses IV was called Proetus. Tutmoses III was caleld Aegyptus by the
Greeks.
Marianne Luban
I wrote:
> > Is this supposed to be an example of your logic? LOL!
> > First you harp on the premise that "Neferkheperure", the prenomen
(throne
> > name) of Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten)
> > seems a good candidate for being "Misphragmoutosis".
> > Now, suddenly, you bring in a whole other Amenhotep--the first pharaoh
by
>
> I always said it was Amenhotep I you IMBECILE.
>
> http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/Manetho.htm
>
> > that name--whose prenomen was "Djeserkare", BTW--because his last
attested
> > regnal year (21) is not a far cry from the 25 (plus some months) given
for
> > "Misphragmoutosis". Can you, languistically speaking, now offer some
> basis
> > why a man with a prenomen of Djeserkare would be "Misphragmoutosis"?
Now
>
> IRRELEVANT. Neferkheperure was an epithet used by all the Amenhoteps.
That is just plain false--and a good example of your making things up as you
go along. I have a very good,
up-to-date Egyptian dictionary by Rainer Hannig here,
which coveniently lists ALL the known names of the kings of Egypt, every
epithet. The only pharaoh who was
styled "Neferkheperure" was Amenhotep IV--later
known as Akhenaten. So, even if you did intend Amenhotep I from the
beginning, you are still dead wrong.
It is you who must appear the imbecile--if only for not
bothering to check your facts. Therefore, once again,
read the following and try to learn something that will stand you in good
stead so that next time you talk about this subject you can do so with some
authority:
> > here comes something straight from the tradition of Manetho, according
to
> > Africanus (via Syncellus the monk): "Total, according to Africanus,
down
> to
> > the reign of Amosis, ALSO CALLED MISPHRAGMUTHOSIS, 69 years."
> > So, now we have established that other name for Ahmose--which is really
> the
> > name of Thutmose III. Now pay attention: Every time the ancient
> historians
> > say "Blank
> > also called Blank" , what they are really saying is that two kings are
> > confused for some reason. Yes, it is always so.
> > The same thing happens with "Sethos also called Ramesses". Why Sethos
was
> > confused with someone named Ramesses is easily explained--and I do it in
> my
> > book. Therefore, it all boils down to this: The ancients
> > admitted that there was an "Amosis, also called Tethmosis, 26 years", as
> it
> > is written in the Book of Sothis. Got it now??? NOBODY named
Amenhotep
> > was involved. The 26 years probably belong to Ahmose
> > and no one else.
P.S. There is no "Nimrod" involved in Egyptian
history.
Agamemnon
WRONG. The EL Armana tablets and Hittite and Babylonian inscriptions give
the name of Neferkheperure to Amenhotep III as well. The name was common to
all the Amenhoteps.
> It is you who must appear the imbecile--if only for not
> bothering to check your facts. Therefore, once again,
> read the following and try to learn something that will stand you in good
> stead so that next time you talk about this subject you can do so with
some
> authority:
HOGWASH.
FOOL !