Helen ferch Llywelyn of Mar: ferch which Llywelyn?
Michelle.Mu...@ccmail.team400.ie
>Donald died after 25 Jul 1297.
>3. Helen ferch Llywelyn of Wales, born about 1234, married (1)
>Malcolm MacDUFF, 7th Earl of Fife, married (2) Donald of Mar.
Is this Helen meant to be a daughter of LLywelyn Fawr despite the fact that
a) if she was born about 1234 then she was only six years old when Llywelyn
died, and was a good thirty or forty years younger than his other children!
b) he already had a daughter (generally held to be undeniably legitimate) called
Helen (although I know that many medieval parents gave several children the same
name).
c) she would most definitely be illegitimate, since Llywelyn's wife Joan did not
die until 1237 (not that this in any way makes her existence more unlikely!
Llywelyn wasn't exactly sparing with his favours by all accounts)
I'd be interested in more information, and especially sources! I have heard this
other Helen mentioned before, but I didn't realise that her birth date was set
so close to Llywelyn's death, which would make him about sixty when she was
born.
thanks,
Michelle Murphy
Suzanne Doig
Michelle.Murphy%EIH...@ccmail.team400.ie wrote:
>>2. Donald, 6th Earl of Mar; married Helen ferch Llywelyn of Wales.
>>Donald died after 25 Jul 1297.
>>3. Helen ferch Llywelyn of Wales, born about 1234, married (1)
>>Malcolm MacDUFF, 7th Earl of Fife, married (2) Donald of Mar.
I can't find the exact references right now, but most sec. sources
make her 'probably' the daughter of Llywelyn Fawr. I think CP has some
primary references in either/both the Fife and Mar articles.
One from the Mar article reads:
'Fordun (Goodall), lib. ix., cap. 47; lib. x, cap. xxi'.
Someone more au fait with the sources for this period might like to
comment on its contemporaneousness or otherwise.
She is certain always said to be illegitimate (for the obvious reasons
you give below).
>Is this Helen meant to be a daughter of LLywelyn Fawr despite the fact that
>
>a) if she was born about 1234 then she was only six years old when Llywelyn
>died, and was a good thirty or forty years younger than his other children!
There are plenty of examples of men fathering children (esp.
illegitimate children) into their sixties, and I don;t see it as a bar
on its own.
Her birth date is a little problematic, and based mostly on the
activities of her children. There are no contemporary dates for her
marriages etc.
Eldest son Colbran of Fife was a minor when his father died in 1266
but had been knighted in 1264 by Alexander III. Most sources give a
birth date 1246-1250 - probably towards the start of that range.
Eldest son of the 2nd marriage Gratney of Mar was joint keeper of the
shire of Aberdeen in 1297. He is said to have been born in 1272
although CP gives no dates.
Daughter Isobel of Mar, wife of Robert Bruce, is said to have been
born c1276, and there was another daughter Margaret.
>b) he already had a daughter (generally held to be undeniably legitimate) called
>Helen (although I know that many medieval parents gave several children the same
>name).
She was only a half-sister of this Helen/Elen, and there was a big age
gap.
Suzanne
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