Has this group died?
Sam Sloan
Even the beloved Mr. CENSORED no longer writes me.
Has this group died?
Or have I been booted off?
Sam Sloan
Gryphon801
messages getting through sometimes.
Renia
about 20 through sgm.
Renia
Matthew Harley
>
> Has this group died?
Was it ever alive?
;-)
Matt Harley
Matt Townsend
Matt
"Gryphon801" <gryph...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020723134840...@mb-cs.aol.com...
Janko Pavsic
Something else is exceptionally dispiriting. This group WAS Medieval
genealogy. Now this is in fact Medieval British Genealogy.
Janko Pavsic
Montréal
John P. DuLong
"Janko Pavsic" <janko...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Something else is exceptionally dispiriting. This group WAS Medieval
> genealogy. Now this is in fact Medieval British Genealogy.
I agree Janko. It seems that almost every discussion centers around British
Medieval genealogy. When France is discussed it is usually in relation to
some Norman family in England. There are of course welcomed exceptions,
like the materials that Leo and Chico post.
But perhaps we are to blame because we do not post enough French and
non-British questions and answers.
Now if I was brilliant, this is the point in which I would raise a French
related issue, but I am drawing a blank tonight.
Perhaps we could talk about the differences between British and French
Medieval genealogy. One difference that strikes me is the use of Latin. In
my French research, most of the documents I have looked at are written in
French, but in helping my wife with her sixteenth century Scottish research,
I am surprised to find almost every document in Latin (or occasionally in
Scots, which I find harder to read than the Latin!). I would have thought
that Latin would be in much more use in France at the same time. Why is
this not the case? Have I just been lucky to stumble upon mostly French
documents? Was it because French was even in the fifteenth century
considered as important a language as Latin for recording documents? I
wonder if in Germany, Italy, and Spain if there was a similar early shift
away from Latin to their respective native tongues?
Perhaps the main reason I have the impression that Latin is not used much in
France is because I was working with documents from the Cabinet des titres.
It was probably just customary for the d'Hoziers to have their clerks write
in French. Also, most of the documents were created in the seventeenth
century.
JP
John P. DuLong, Ph.D.
Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy
959 Oxford Road
Berkley, MI 48072-2011
USA
(248) 541-2894
http://habitant.org
Denis Beauregard
<dul...@habitant.org> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
>"Janko Pavsic" <janko...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>> Something else is exceptionally dispiriting. This group WAS Medieval
>> genealogy. Now this is in fact Medieval British Genealogy.
>
>I agree Janko. It seems that almost every discussion centers around British
>Medieval genealogy. When France is discussed it is usually in relation to
>some Norman family in England. There are of course welcomed exceptions,
>like the materials that Leo and Chico post.
>
>But perhaps we are to blame because we do not post enough French and
>non-British questions and answers.
You know why ? Because a lot of English royal lines are wrong.
You see, the fact that the name of the mother is usually not given
has the effect of increasing the number of persons with a royal
line.
Just take a typical English genealogy: they have the name of the
wife from marriage contracts but they have the parents from wills.
Since many documents are missing, many searchers will find some
line from the remaining documents. And because of homonymous persons,
which won't be detected, the odds of taking the wrong trail is higher.
Since the French culture is different and the women kept their
name after being married, the proportion of possible lines is
a lot lower: the likeliness of homonymous persons is low because
we are comparing couples, not persons.
As a result, you will see much more discussions about English lines
because much more medieval lines are known.
If we play "the name is the same game", I can drive my own Beauregard
line to the 1200s (I am currently stopped in 1471)....
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ Web de généalogie: http://www.genealogie.com (français)
|\ Genealogy Web site: http://www.francogene.com (English)
/ | >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
oo oo Ancestors in Quebec ? What about vacations in your homeland!
zglorg
written in FRENCH...
No latin or regional languages.
In my region (Provence), i can see that nearly all official acts
(parish records, notarial records, judgment etc.... ) have been
written in french since 1540. After 1550 no acts are in latin or
provencal... (except for some extremely rare mariage acts written by
the priet assistant which is written in provencal. i found only one)
And i live in a region which was recently integrated to France (1483)
where most of people spoke provencal till 1920/1930
That's to say that in whole french , most part of acts were in
french... from 1539 till now
JL
John P. DuLong
> in 1539 François Ier made a law that obliged every official act to be
> written in FRENCH...
Well that certainly explains my observation. Thanks. And thank you
François Ier for making my research easier.
According to Fitzhugh's _The Dictionary of Genealogy_, p. 159, Latin was
abandoned as the compulsory legal documents in England (and dare I presume
Scotland). There was an exception between 1651 and 1660, during the
Commonwealth years. This would explain why Latin is used so late in England
and Scotland.
John P. DuLong
> You know why ? Because a lot of English royal lines are wrong.
>
> You see, the fact that the name of the mother is usually not given
> has the effect of increasing the number of persons with a royal
> line.
Interesting observation Denis. However, I have noticed in the Scottish
research I am doing that the wife's maiden name is usually given.
Nevertheless, most of the documents I have seen are so male oriented that
females, even with their maiden names, are not clearly identified. In most
French documents I have seen you will see something like X is the son of Y
and Z. But many Scottish documents I have seen recently will have Y and his
wife Z mentioned in one part of the document and then X is the son of Y. It
is not made clear if Z is the mother of X. This especially becomes
problematic if Y had several wives. Just recording the mother's maiden name
is not always enough to lock down an identification.
Furthermore, in French documents it is usually the case that all parties are
clearly identified. This includes witnesses. Their relationship to the
parties of an act is typically make explicit.
I agree that this makes all our research easier. But still we have
mysteries that we could ask about on this list. The English Medieval
genealogists do not have a monopoly on difficult to solve genealogical
problems. I know in the Baillon research we ran into several dead-ends.
Perhaps they are not really dead-ends.
Just randomly flipping open our book on the ancestry of Catherine Baillon
and doing a quick search I find Philippe Vaultier, the wife of Adam Baillon,
sieur de Valence (p. 49). We know that she was probably related to the
Vaultier of Orléanais family and that there is a mention published on this
family by Maquet and Dion in _Nobiliaire et armorial du comté de
Montfort-l'Armaury_ (1881), p. 455, but we do not know how she fits into
this family, if indeed she does. So to try and keep the French Medieval gen
ealogy ball in play, does anyone know who her parents were? I should add
that she married Adam Baillon around 1500-1510, was married before that to N
..., sieur de Janillac, and died before 26 June 1551.
There are many more "dead-ends" that might really lead somewhere in
Catherine Baillon's ancestry.
Gerard Poissonnier
John:
I have a question for you and anyone else on the group. I have found
the following ascent (Ahnentafel numbering) for Seigneur de Saint Ouen
Jean de Picquigny who married Dame de Canaples Marthe d'Amiens
(Ancestors of Catherine de Baillon):
1. Jean de Picquigny
2. Vidame d'Amiens Jean de Picquigny (Source 1)
3. Marguerite de Beaumes (or Beaumetz)
6. Chatelaine de Bapaume Gilles III de Beaumes (or Beaumetz) (Source
1)
12. Chatelaine de Bapaume Gilles II de Beaumes (Source 2, P. 218)
24. Chateleaine de Bapaume Gilles I de Beaumes (Source 2, P. 218)
25. Agnes de Coucy (Source 2, P. 218)
50. Sieur de Coucy Raoul I de Coucy (Source 2, P. 216)
100. Sieur de Coucy Enguerrand II de Coucy (Source 2, P. 209)
200. Seigneur de Marle Thomas de Marle (Source 2, P. 197)
Source 1 = Aurejac's database on the internet
Source 2 = Andre du Chesne, "Histoire Genealogique des Maisons de
Guines, d'Ardres, de Gand et de Coucy" Paris 1631.
The two generations in question are those based on Aurejac's database.
Does anyone have a source for those two filiations which is other than
Aurejac's database? Is there a reliable written source for those
filiations?
John P. DuLong
>
> John:
>
> I have a question for you and anyone else on the group. I have found
> the following ascent (Ahnentafel numbering) for Seigneur de Saint Ouen
> Jean de Picquigny who married Dame de Canaples Marthe d'Amiens
> (Ancestors of Catherine de Baillon):
>
> 1. Jean de Picquigny
> 2. Vidame d'Amiens Jean de Picquigny (Source 1)
> 3. Marguerite de Beaumes (or Beaumetz)
> 6. Chatelaine de Bapaume Gilles III de Beaumes (or Beaumetz) (Source
> 1)
> 12. Chatelaine de Bapaume Gilles II de Beaumes (Source 2, P. 218)
> 24. Chateleaine de Bapaume Gilles I de Beaumes (Source 2, P. 218)
> 25. Agnes de Coucy (Source 2, P. 218)
> 50. Sieur de Coucy Raoul I de Coucy (Source 2, P. 216)
> 100. Sieur de Coucy Enguerrand II de Coucy (Source 2, P. 209)
> 200. Seigneur de Marle Thomas de Marle (Source 2, P. 197)
>
> Source 1 = Aurejac's database on the internet
>
> Source 2 = Andre du Chesne, "Histoire Genealogique des Maisons de
> Guines, d'Ardres, de Gand et de Coucy" Paris 1631.
>
> The two generations in question are those based on Aurejac's database.
> Does anyone have a source for those two filiations which is other than
> Aurejac's database? Is there a reliable written source for those
> filiations?
This is interesting and I have not seen it before. I am especially
intrigued by the tie to the de Coucy family.
Perhaps you could explain more about the Aurejac database. For example,
what is the URL. I am unfamiliar with it. Have you tried contacting M.
Aurejac and asking for the source of his data?
As for André du Chesne, he was one of France's greatest and earliest
scholarly genealogists. His books are difficult to come by her in the
United States (though I believe Yale University has originals of most of
them). For their time, they were well done and I seem to recall, from the
few pages I have seen dealing with the Montmorency family, he does point to
his sources. I would consider du Chesne a very good source, but still one
that needs to be verified.
I have passed this note on to my colleagues to see if they are aware of this
line and the Aurejac database. If they have anything to contribute about
this lineage, then I will share it with the group.
Please keep us all informed if you make any further progress researching it.
When we wrote the _Table d'ascendance de Catherine Baillon_ we knew that we
were leaving some lineages unfinished. Perhaps some of them will never be
solved, but others might be resolved by the right person with access to the
right information. Your curious find is certainly encouraging.
Gerard Poissonnier
>
> This is interesting and I have not seen it before. I am especially
> intrigued by the tie to the de Coucy family.
>
> Perhaps you could explain more about the Aurejac database. For example,
> what is the URL. I am unfamiliar with it. Have you tried contacting M.
> Aurejac and asking for the source of his data?
>
That will take you to his home page and there will be a navigation
frame on the left. You can either choose "Consultation Dynamique"
which takes you to his online database or you can choose to download
his Gedcom. I have put together a report in rtf format, which you can
open in most word processing programs from his gedcom which gives what
he has for ancestors for Jeanne de Picquigny.
You pose a good question. I have been considering writing to ask him
specifically about those two generations. But I would want to do it
in French and it will take me a little bit to write that out. It's
just when you mentioned unexplored lines, that I thought I would ask
if you knew of that line and of sources for it. I will definitely
write him.
If I receive an answer with further information, I'll pass it along.
> As for André du Chesne, he was one of France's greatest and earliest
> scholarly genealogists. His books are difficult to come by her in the
> United States (though I believe Yale University has originals of most of
> them). For their time, they were well done and I seem to recall, from the
> few pages I have seen dealing with the Montmorency family, he does point to
> his sources. I would consider du Chesne a very good source, but still one
> that needs to be verified.
>
I found du Chesne's work on the Bibliotheque Nationale de France's
Gallica site, so I downloaded a pdf format copy of his book, as well
as a copy of his work on the Kings and Dukes of Burgundy. I also have
downloaded from there a copy of Pere Anselme's work, but it is an
earlier version of his work than that from which you cite in your book
on Catherine de Baillon. Still, it has been helpful. Since Raoul I
de Coucy married Alix de Dreux, Pere Anselme deals with that marriage
and does also state that their daughter, Agnes de Coucy married the
Chatellaine de Bapaume Gilles de Beaumes. Unlike du Chesne, however,
Pere Anselme, at least in the version I have, doesn't carry the line
any further forward.
I have found the Gallica site to be interesting and valuable. There
are some on the Quebec Bibliotheque's site which I would love to
download, but that site uses a different method than the Gallica site
and I cannot download most books on the Quebec site, while I have not
had any problem downloading books on the Gallica site. I wish the
Quebec Library would adopt the Gallica method, whatever it is.
> I have passed this note on to my colleagues to see if they are aware of this
> line and the Aurejac database. If they have anything to contribute about
> this lineage, then I will share it with the group.
>
> Please keep us all informed if you make any further progress researching it.
>
I will be glad to pass along any other information I may find.
However, I think you and your colleagues are much more capable than I
when it comes to this research. I want to thank you all for your
work. My copy of your book is starting to become dog eared, as I have
been working on extending lines back from it. I hope there will be
more postings here on other French lines of interest by other
researchers.
> When we wrote the _Table d'ascendance de Catherine Baillon_ we knew that we
> were leaving some lineages unfinished. Perhaps some of them will never be
> solved, but others might be resolved by the right person with access to the
> right information. Your curious find is certainly encouraging.
>
> JP
>
> John P. DuLong, Ph.D.
> Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy
> 959 Oxford Road
> Berkley, MI 48072-2011
> USA
> (248) 541-2894
> http://habitant.org
I was pleased to find this line, as I have enjoyed Barbara Tuchman's
book and it's always fun to feel there's a link to history. I have
been amazed at how many times my genealogy has intersected with
history, which was always an interest of mine. I enjoyed it when I
discovered that one of my favorite historians actually wrote about one
of my ggggggggrandfathers.
J.L.Fernandez-Blanco
> "John P. DuLong" <dul...@habitant.org> wrote in message news:<ai214m$10hmk1$1...@ID-28226.news.dfncis.de>...
> >
> > This is interesting and I have not seen it before. I am especially
> > intrigued by the tie to the de Coucy family.
> >
> > Perhaps you could explain more about the Aurejac database. For example,
> > what is the URL. I am unfamiliar with it. Have you tried contacting M.
> > Aurejac and asking for the source of his data?
> >
> The URL is: http://arnaud.aurejac.free.fr/
>
> That will take you to his home page and there will be a navigation
> frame on the left. You can either choose "Consultation Dynamique"
> which takes you to his online database or you can choose to download
> his Gedcom. I have put together a report in rtf format, which you can
> open in most word processing programs from his gedcom which gives what
> he has for ancestors for Jeanne de Picquigny.
>
> You pose a good question. I have been considering writing to ask him
> specifically about those two generations. But I would want to do it
> in French and it will take me a little bit to write that out. It's
> just when you mentioned unexplored lines, that I thought I would ask
> if you knew of that line and of sources for it. I will definitely
> write him.
>
Arnaud Aurejac answers mails in English. I have written to him in this
language and he understands it very well.
Regards,
JL
Jean-Philippe Gérard
> "Gerard Poissonnier" <Poiss...@netscape.net> wrote:
> > .../...
> > Source 2 = Andre du Chesne, "Histoire Genealogique des Maisons de
> > Guines, d'Ardres, de Gand et de Coucy" Paris 1631.
> >
> > .../...
>
> This is interesting and I have not seen it before. I am especially
> intrigued by the tie to the de Coucy family.
>
> Perhaps you could explain more about the Aurejac database. For example,
> what is the URL. I am unfamiliar with it. Have you tried contacting M.
> Aurejac and asking for the source of his data?
>
> As for André du Chesne, he was one of France's greatest and earliest
> scholarly genealogists. His books are difficult to come by her in the
> United States (though I believe Yale University has originals of most of
> them). For their time, they were well done and I seem to recall, from the
> few pages I have seen dealing with the Montmorency family, he does point to
> his sources. I would consider du Chesne a very good source, but still one
> that needs to be verified.
This book is available on Gallica, the numeric library of the french
nationale Library at http://gallica.bnf.fr/. Click on 'Recherche' and
enter Coucy in 'Mots du titre' field and Duchesne in 'Auteur' field and
then click on 'Rechercher'.
And the result is "Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines,
d'Ardres, de Gand, et de Coucy, et de quelques autres familles illustres
qui y ont été alliées : le tout illustré par chartes de diverses
églises, tiltres, histoires anciennes et autres bonnes preuves / par
André du Chesne Tourangeau, géographe du roy"
--
Jean-Philippe Gérard
Gerard Poissonnier
> Poiss...@netscape.net (Gerard Poissonnier) wrote in message news:<9e629fc7.02072...@posting.google.com>...
> > specifically about those two generations. But I would want to do it
> > in French and it will take me a little bit to write that out. It's
> > just when you mentioned unexplored lines, that I thought I would ask
> > if you knew of that line and of sources for it. I will definitely
> > write him.
> >
>
> Arnaud Aurejac answers mails in English. I have written to him in this
> language and he understands it very well.
> Regards,
> JL
Thank you for the information. I guess I should have known or assumed
that. However, since I can write in French, although probably not all
that well, I figured it would probably be more polite for me to write
to him in French. I have written him and I hope to hear from him
soon.
This line looks quite probable to me. Pere Anselme has the Agnes de
Coucy and Gilles de Beaumes marriage and du Chesne has that marriage
as well as that of their son, Gilles II de Beaumes with N. de
Bailleul, daughter of Jacques de Bailleul. So what I would like is to
see if the next two generations: Gilles III de Beaumes and Marguerite
de Beaumes check out.
Gerard
John P. DuLong
wrote:
>I have a question for you and anyone else on the group. I have found
>the following ascent (Ahnentafel numbering) for Seigneur de Saint Ouen
>Jean de Picquigny who married Dame de Canaples Marthe d'Amiens
>(Ancestors of Catherine de Baillon):
>
>1. Jean de Picquigny
>2. Vidame d'Amiens Jean de Picquigny (Source 1)
>3. Marguerite de Beaumes (or Beaumetz)
>6. Chatelaine de Bapaume Gilles III de Beaumes (or Beaumetz) (Source
>1)
>12. Chatelaine de Bapaume Gilles II de Beaumes (Source 2, P. 218)
>24. Chateleaine de Bapaume Gilles I de Beaumes (Source 2, P. 218)
>25. Agnes de Coucy (Source 2, P. 218)
>50. Sieur de Coucy Raoul I de Coucy (Source 2, P. 216)
>100. Sieur de Coucy Enguerrand II de Coucy (Source 2, P. 209)
>200. Seigneur de Marle Thomas de Marle (Source 2, P. 197)
>
>Source 1 = Aurejac's database on the internet
>
>Source 2 = Andre du Chesne, "Histoire Genealogique des Maisons de
>Guines, d'Ardres, de Gand et de Coucy" Paris 1631.
Here is what I was able to find using some standard sources. If I may, I
will start the generation numbering from where my colleagues and I left off
in our _Table d'ascendance de Catherine Baillon_.
3078. Jean de Picquigny, seigneur de St-Ouen
3079. Marie or Marthe d'Amiens
6156. Jean Sire de Picquigny, vidame d'Amiens
6157. Marguerite de Beaumetz, daughter of Gilles chātelain de Bapaume
ES, vol. 13, table 144, and La Chenaye-DesBois, vol. 2, col. 663.
12314. Gilles II, chātelain de Beaumez et de Bapaume (not Giles III)
12315. Jeanne de Bailleul, sister of Jacques, seigneur de Bailleul in
Hainaut
La Chenaye-DesBois, vol. 2, col. 663.
24628. Gilles I, chātelain de Beaumez et de Bapaume
24629. Agnčs de Coucy, daughter of Raoul I, seigneur de Coucy.
La Chenaye-DesBois, vol. 2, col. 663
49258. Raoul I, de Coucy
49259. Alix de Dreux, daughter of Robert I de Dreux
ES, vol. 7, table 80
From this point you can easily trace back the Coucy line. These are of
course secondary sources and must be treated with caution. Lastly, Pčre
Anselme makes many mentions of the Beaumez and Picquigny families, but I did
not bother to look up all these page references.
So indeed it looks like there is Catherine Baillon is descended from the
famous de Coucy family. However, her connection is several generations back
from Enguerrand VII de Coucy, the subject of Barbara Tuchman's The Distant
Mirror. Still it is an interesting link.
This lineage is extending Catherine Baillon's ancestry beyond the twelfth
generation. As our book only goes to the twelfth generation, it is
relatively easy to trace many of her ancestors further back. What I would
like to see progress on our the earlier road blocks we ran into between
generations 1 and 12. When I have time I should review our book and write
up a list of these road blocks. They are the problems that hold the most
promise for important breakthroughs if they are solved.
Gerard Poissonnier
> ES, vol. 13, table 144, and La Chenaye-DesBois, vol. 2, col. 663.
> 12315. Jeanne de Bailleul, sister of Jacques, seigneur de Bailleul in
> Hainaut
> La Chenaye-DesBois, vol. 2, col. 663.
> 24629. Agnès de Coucy, daughter of Raoul I, seigneur de Coucy.
> La Chenaye-DesBois, vol. 2, col. 663
> 49258. Raoul I, de Coucy
> 49259. Alix de Dreux, daughter of Robert I de Dreux
> ES, vol. 7, table 80
>
> From this point you can easily trace back the Coucy line. These are of
> Anselme makes many mentions of the Beaumez and Picquigny families, but I did
> not bother to look up all these page references.
>
> So indeed it looks like there is Catherine Baillon is descended from the
> famous de Coucy family. However, her connection is several generations back
> from Enguerrand VII de Coucy, the subject of Barbara Tuchman's The Distant
> Mirror. Still it is an interesting link.
>
> This lineage is extending Catherine Baillon's ancestry beyond the twelfth
> generation. As our book only goes to the twelfth generation, it is
> relatively easy to trace many of her ancestors further back. What I would
> like to see progress on our the earlier road blocks we ran into between
> generations 1 and 12. When I have time I should review our book and write
> up a list of these road blocks. They are the problems that hold the most
> promise for important breakthroughs if they are solved.
>
> JP
>
> John P. DuLong, Ph.D.
> Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy
> 959 Oxford Road
> Berkley, MI 48072-2011
> USA
> (248) 541-2894
> http://habitant.org
John --
Thank you very much!! I do not have access to either LaChesnaye or
ES. The line looked credible, however. Still, I had no really
authoritative sources for a couple of the links. I will make the
corrections indicated to what I have. I presume that the de Bailleul
line is in Warlop and will consult that source again.
I don't think there is any lineage from Enguerrand VII to Catherine de
Baillon, however, I find it quite exciting to find a link back to
Thomas de Marle. Also, interestingly enough, this Picquigny lineage
runs down through Alix de Mailly to the Jean de Marle who married
Gillette de Thiembronne, and therefore the de Marles are descended
from Thomas de Marle, though not through the male line.
I would be quite interested to see a posting of the roadblocks and the
places where further work needs to be done.
Thanks again.
Gerard
Cristopher Nash
> >1. Jean de Picquigny
>>2. Vidame d'Amiens Jean de Picquigny (Source 1)
>>3. Marguerite de Beaumes (or Beaumetz)
>>6. Chatelaine de Bapaume Gilles III de Beaumes (or Beaumetz) (Source
>>1)
>>12. Chatelaine de Bapaume Gilles II de Beaumes (Source 2, P. 218)
>>24. Chateleaine de Bapaume Gilles I de Beaumes (Source 2, P. 218)
>>25. Agnes de Coucy (Source 2, P. 218)
>>50. Sieur de Coucy Raoul I de Coucy (Source 2, P. 216)
>>100. Sieur de Coucy Enguerrand II de Coucy (Source 2, P. 209)
>>200. Seigneur de Marle Thomas de Marle (Source 2, P. 197)
>>
>>Source 1 = Aurejac's database on the internet
>>
>>Source 2 = Andre du Chesne, "Histoire Genealogique des Maisons de
>>Guines, d'Ardres, de Gand et de Coucy" Paris 1631.
>
>Here is what I was able to find using some standard sources. If I may, I
>will start the generation numbering from where my colleagues and I left off
>in our _Table d'ascendance de Catherine Baillon_.
>
>3078. Jean de Picquigny, seigneur de St-Ouen
>3079. Marie or Marthe d'Amiens
>6156. Jean Sire de Picquigny, vidame d'Amiens
>6157. Marguerite de Beaumetz, daughter of Gilles ch’telain de Bapaume
> ES, vol. 13, table 144, and La Chenaye-DesBois, vol. 2, col. 663.
Just in the spirit of 'synthesis' - and seeing no dates suggested
here - I'd be interested in knowing what connection there might be
between the line described above and one discussed by John Carmi
Parsons and others in 1999 under the header <Re: Picquigny>, as
follows.
>Date: 7 Feb 1999 10:59:34 -0800
>From: jpar...@chass.utoronto.ca (John Carmi Parsons)
>
>On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, Mardi Carter wrote:
>> > I have an Agnes Picquigny who m. Bernard II de Baliol. Does anyone know
>> > where she fits into the family?
>
>This was Bernard de Baliol II d. 1186/87, baron of Bywell in England (see
>Sanders' *English Baronies*, s.v. "Bywell"), and an ancestor of King John
>Baliol of Scotland. Sanders does not indicate who Agnes' father was, but
>the dates suggest she was a daughter either of Guermond de Picquigny, vidame
>of Amiens (died ca 1131) or of his son Gerard (d. 1178). Gerard's son Guermond
>de Picquigny III died ca 1186, just the same time Bernard de Baliol II died.
>Possibly then Agnes would have been Gerard's daughter, but I would hesitate to
>state that unequivocally before further proof were available.
>
>Guermond de Picquigny II d. ca 1131 m. Beatrice d. 1144, family unknown.
>Gerard d. 1178 was married twice; his first wife Mathilde, family unknown,
>died in or before 1144; she was the mother of at Guermond III,
>Pierre and John, provost and canon at Amiens. Gerard's second wife
>was Beatrice, daughter of Stephen count of Aumale; she was the
>mother (according to the work by Darsy I cited in an earlier post)
>of sons Gerard, Enguerran, William (canon at Amiens) and Robert, and
>daughters Margaret, Matilda and Beatrix. Darsy mentions no Agnes in
>either of these generations of the Picquigny family, nor for that
>matter in any other generation.
>
>John Parsons
Thanks for any thoughts.
Cris
--
Gerard Poissonnier
Here is what I have for the connection between the line below and the
line discussed by John Carmi Parsons in 1999. Both John P. DuLong and
John Carmi Parsons are probably more knowledgeable of this than I and I
welcome any corrections they may have to what I am posting here.
This line will be posted using the numbering from the book "Table
d'Ascendance de Catherine Baillon 12 generations" by Rene Jette, John P.
DuLong, Roland-Yves Gagne, Gail F. Moreau and Joseph A. Dube.
3078. Jean de Picquigny, Seigneur de Saint Ouen (b. abt. 1285 d. bef.
16 Sep. 1338) married bet. 1300 - 1310
3079. Marie or Marthe d'Amiens, Dame de Canaples (b. abt. 1280 d. aft.
16 Sep. 1338)
6156. Jean de Picquigny, Vidame d'Amiens (b. abt 1248 d. 29 sep 1304)
married abt. 1285
6157. Marguerite de Beaumes
12312. Gerard de Picquigny, Vidame d'Amiens (b. abt 1205 d. abt 1248)
12313. Mathilda de Crecques (b. abt 1225, d. aft. 1296)
24624. Enguerrand de Picquigny, Vidame d'Amiens
24625. Marguerite de Ponthieu
49248. Guermond III de Picquigny, Vidame d'Amiens (d. abt 1186)
49249. Flandrine d'Amiens
98496. Gerard de Picquigny, Vidame d'Amiens (d. aft 1178)
98497. Mathilde N.
196992. Guermond II de Picquigny, Vidame d'Amiens
196993. Beatrice N.
393984. Eustache de Picquigny, Vidame d'Amiens
393985. N. N.
787968. Arnoul de Picquigny, Vidame d'Amiens
787969. N. N.
1575936. Eustache de Picquigny, Vidame d'Amiens
1575937. N. N.
3151872. Guermond de Picquigny, Seigneur de Picquigny
3151873. Adele N.
Any corrections to this line are welcome.
--Gerard
Phil Moody
database:
"8163 Baldwin Filius Herluin Layman Normandy No
Domesday tenant of the Picard ***William de Picquigny in Buckinghamshire***.
He was Baldwin fitz Herluin (DB Bucks 4.31, whose pre-Conquest holdings were
divided between Hugh de Grandmesnil and ***William de Picquigny before
1086.*** His father Herluin was mentioned in Hemming's Cartulary of
Worcester (ed. Hearne, 267) as having been in the service of Bishop
Beorhtheah, whom he accompanied when the bishop conducted Cnut's daughter
Gunnild to her wedding with the son of Conrad III. The bishop gave him the
manor of Leopard, which Baldwin held of Hugh de Grandmesnil in 1086. Baldwin
was steward to Bishop Ealdred of Worcester (Williams, Introd. to
Gloucestershire Domesday, 25). In 1166 his fees were held by Bernard de
Frankeleges (q.v.), his probable descendant, named from his tenement at
Frankley."
Best Wishes,
Phil
Douglas Richardson
Regarding Agnes de Picquiny, wife of Bernard de Baliol, she was
clearly from an important family, as I find her maiden name employed
in a charter she and her husband issued to Rievaulx. I also find her
maiden name in another early medieval source, Liber Vitae Ecclesiae
Dunelmensis, published twice by the Surtees Society, a modern
transcript in vol. 13 (1841) and facsimile copy in vol. 136 (1923).
Interestingly, Agnes does not appear in the chart of the Picquiny
family of Amiens in a recent volume of Europaische Stammtafeln by
Detlev Schwennicke. However, I have no doubt that she was a member of
this important family. The Balliol family were important land owners
in Picardy like the Picquiny family. Both families would have known
each other well.
I haven't studied the chronology, but it seems a good possibility that
Agnes was the daughter of Gerard de Picquiny, by Beatrice, daughter of
Stephen, Count of Aumale. This would provide Agnes and her
descendants with a blood tie to the English royal family, as Stephen,
Count of Aumale, was nephew of William the Conqueror.
I've noted that English families of top rank vied for marriages into
families who had descents from either Countess Judith, niece of
William the Conqueror, or Isabel de Vermandois, granddaughter of
Henry, King of France. The reason for this is rather simple.
Families in this period were required to marry someone outside the 5th
degree of consanguinity. Intermarriage with a female descendant of
Countess Judith or Isabel de Vermandois gave a man immediate kinship
to the kings of England, Scotland, and France. Families seeking to
rise upwardly or to retain their status contracted marriages to women
descended from these two families. In one generation they would
intermarry with a descendant of Countess Judith and in the following
generation they would intermarry with a descendant of Isabel de
Vermandois. Countess Judith and Isabel de Vermandois were distantly
enough related, so as to not create a problem involving consanguinity
for anyone intermarrying into both families.
Basically, in time as the cross marriages between these families
occured, it meant that the top echelon of families in England all had
links to the kings of England, Scotland, and France. This "cross
pollination" provided for social cohesion. It also met the church
requirements regarding consanguinity.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
moody...@cox.net ("Phil Moody") wrote in message news:<001a01c29e2c$50ad9ce0$1a69...@tu.ok.cox.net>...
Cristopher Nash
Moody for their contributions under this thread (in part in response
to a query of mine to John P. DuLong), which - having been abroad -
I've just this minute discovered. I'll catch up as soon as I can,
and apologize for this delay in responding.
Cris