Fatality at Crosskeys, or Reflexgate
M.A. Lovinger
I received a call at work today from Ed Cummings, from whom I am
buying a new Reflex. He told me that the fatality was due to firing
the reserve into the unchopped main. The reason that he called me was
that this was a VERY unusual fatality, in that it was the SECONDARY
reserve pilot chute from this lady's Reflex that got entangled with
the main.
Now, I am -not- flaming Reflexes and their catapult system. I have
one on order myself. This fatality was -not- due to the secondary
pilot chute, but rather from firing a reserve into a main. It just so
happened that the part that snagged was the catapult. The catapult
was a secondary cause of the incident. Mick Cottle, according to Ed
Cummings, said "the cause was firing a reserve into the main." I
would tend to agree with them.
The reason that I post this is that this is the FIRST documented
incident of the Reflex's catapult system contributing to a fatality.
I recall that they have one documented save from the catapult. It
seems to be 1 and 1 right now. Ed says that he wants me to write him
a letter if I want him to install the catapult on my rig. I can see
where he's coming from in a liability standpoint. I would probably do
the same.
My figuring says that first off, don't be stupid and not chop before
pulling the reserve. If you don't do that, then there is no
possibility of this type of incident happening again. I trust myself
enough to cut away first. The greatest advantage that I can see in
the catapult is if you cut away and roll and flip and get the reserve
pilot chute to hang on a leg or an arm. This is entirely in the scope
of possibility as far as I'm concerned. I think that the catapult
could very well save your life in that case.
So, it comes down to installing or not installing the catapult. Based
on the above, I think that I will have it installed, as the rewards
outweigh the risks, as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure that many other
people have differing opinions, and I would like to hear them.
Mark Lovinger
M.A. Lovinger
For people's information, the jumper was Denise Daddio (sp),
girlfriend of Glen King. My condolences.
M.A.Lovinger
Skydivers2
M.A. Lovinger wrote:
>
> I received a call at work today from Ed Cummings, from whom I am
> buying a new Reflex. He told me that the fatality was due to firing
> the reserve into the unchopped main.
I was present at the DZ for the incident. I know who, and have heard
speculation as to why this terrible incident occurred. My point to you
is this. Perhaps we could spend just a little time grieving for this
woman, and those she left behind, before we begin to assign blame. I
realize the race to deny liability in this litigious society has become
somewhat of an artform, but is it necessary to begin this process before
you even know her name?
Carl Wilson
Winsor Naugler III
Skydivers2 wrote in message <358EAF...@prodigy.net>...
Damn straight, it is. The process of incident analysis is entirely
independent of any emotional involvement in the incident -- or should be.
To be ignorant for emotional reasons is to be willingly ignorant, and that
is unacceptable.
On the basis of the waiver she signed to make that jump, I am assured that
she knew the risks involved in doing so. Since she came to grief, I want to
know exactly what went wrong as soon as possible, for there, but for the
grace of God, go I.
When Tom Piras bounced there was a wave of shock and grief that went through
the skydiving community, but people were rethinking their policy regarding
AADs and separation before his funeral arrangements were made. There was no
lack of respect of Tommy's memory implied; if anything, he was a great
instructor who's last lesson all the more was poignant by virtue of its
tuition, and it would have been less fitting a tribute to his memory had we
not learned from his demise. There are people who have survived by using
what they learned from his death.
It isn't a matter of blame so much as cause. If you can break the chain of
events leading to a fatality, perhaps it may be averted, but first you must
know what were those circumstances. The sooner the information is
disseminated, the more useful it is for the living.
Blue skies,
Winsor
Rooster
It sounds to me like the jury is still out on whether it was a pc in tow or
whether the main was out and the reserve deployed into it. As for me, if I ever
have a pc in tow, I will be cutting away as well because one never knows if the
main will come out during or right after your reserve deployment. I have heard
and read about it happening more than once.
my 2c anyhow.
SStoer4649 wrote:
> mlov...@bellsouth.net (M.A. Lovinger) wrote:
> <snip>
> The catapult was a secondary cause of the incident. Mick Cottle, according to
> Ed Cummings, said "the cause was firing a reserve into the main." I
> would tend to agree with them.
> <snip>
> My figuring says that first off, don't be stupid and not chop before
> pulling the reserve.
> <snip>
> I'm sure that many other people have differing opinions, and I would like to
> hear them.
>
> I'm just a newbie so correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the USPA reccomend
> going to reserve and not waste time cutting away with a pilot chute in tow?
>
> Steve
--
***** EDIT RETURN ADDRESS FOR BOUNCE FREE REPLY *****
___________________________________________________________
/ \
| Jared 'Rooster' Ruplinger | "If you're not living on |
| | the edge, you're |
| r...@xmission.com | taking up too much |
| http://www.xmission.com/~rup | space." |
\___________________________________________________________/
SStoer4649
Rhonda Lea Kirk
On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Winsor Naugler III wrote:
> >somewhat of an artform, but is it necessary to begin this process before
> >you even know her name?
>
> Damn straight, it is. The process of incident analysis is entirely
> independent of any emotional involvement in the incident -- or should be.
> To be ignorant for emotional reasons is to be willingly ignorant, and that
> is unacceptable.
Winsor,
You're absolutely right...except that what goes on here is not incident
analysis but speculation in the absence of facts.
rl
Winsor Naugler III
SStoer4649 wrote in message
<199806230331...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
They very well may, but I consider it to be a sound policy to have the
cutaway handle pulled in the event the main tries to inflate after the
reserve is out. The USPA also advises against initiating CRW at 500 feet,
and a personal downplane or dragplane using main and reserve is not high on
my "to do" list.
Blue skies,
Winsor
Winsor Naugler III
Rhonda Lea Kirk wrote in message ...
There is, however, the dissemination of clues, from eyewitness commentary to
the input attributed to Ed Cummings. I'm not looking for knee-jerk
conclusions, nor do I consider input to be "facts" to be evaluated.
I am not so much interested in reaching a binding verdict as I am increasing
my familiarity with how things have gone wrong and why. Who's to "blame" is
immaterial to my purposes, I'm a Skydiver, Rigger and Engineer, not an
Attorney. If I'm packing someone's reserve, I try to pass on any
suggestions that might improve the safety of the user of the equipment. If
someone has soft cutaway housings, for example, I'll urge them to send the
rig in to be fitted with hard housings.
Part of flight planning is establishing a decision tree that will maximize
the likelihood of an uneventful outcome. Understanding failure modes which
may manifest themselves can help avoid them in the first place, or clear
them in time if they occur. I want as much information as I can garner
regarding this lady's last jump, since I want to relegate her procedures to
the "don't do this" list.
FWIW, even if it was a catapult entanglement, I'd jump a Reflex so fitted
without hesitation. The Reflex is a superb rig, and the catapult seems to
nudge the odds more to survival than catastrophe. Even so, I've jumped a
lot worse and had a great time doing so.
Blue skies,
Winsor
Rita
Winsor Naugler III wrote:
> They very well may, but I consider it to be a sound policy to have the
> cutaway handle pulled in the event the main tries to inflate after the
> reserve is out. The USPA also advises against initiating CRW at 500 feet,
> and a personal downplane or dragplane using main and reserve is not high on
> my "to do" list.
Okay, I'm going to jump in here and probably get my head taken off in the
process.
Why would someone not want to cutaway before deploying the reserve? Of
course, I'm talking a deployment after your "average" skydive here ... not
skysurfing or CRW applications. Given that you have adequate altitude, what
would be the harm in yanking both handles ... for no other reason than the
sheer hell of it?
This is something that I've long wondered when I would hear criticism of the
SOS system used on some student rigs. If one handle does it all, then why
not? You have one less thing to worry about screwing up. Just don't wear a
rig of that type if you are planning on doing CRW, or are planning on jumping
in extremely windy conditions, when you may need to just break away without
effecting a reserve deployment.
It just seems that it could *appear* you have a total mal ... even though
that is not the case at all. Perhaps something is out, but in the heat
of a tense situation, you simply don't see it ... perhaps it's not obvious.
So, to save time, you go straight for the silver handle, and have an
entanglement. Wouldn't it be far simplier to just grab the cutaway pad, yank
that, and then go for the reserve handle? Unless you've deployed very low,
shouldn't you have adequate time for both?
Or am I, as is often the case, missing something here?
Can someone please enlighten me?
Blue ones!
--rita
ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com
In article <358fa4b7...@news.atl.bellsouth.net>,
mlov...@bellsouth.net wrote:
[snip]
> He told me that the fatality was due to firing
> that this was a VERY unusual fatality, in that it was the SECONDARY
> reserve pilot chute from this lady's Reflex that got entangled with
> the main.
>
> Now, I am -not- flaming Reflexes and their catapult system. I have
> one on order myself. This fatality was -not- due to the secondary
> pilot chute, but rather from firing a reserve into a main. It just so
> was a secondary cause of the incident.
Seems like the way USPA puts this is "lack of a secondary pilot
chute MAY have prevented this fatality". There is what can cause it,
and there is what can prevent it. They are not necessarily the same
animal.
Kevin O'Connell
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Wendy Faulkner
In article <358FC7...@philly.infi.net>,
Rita <kr...@philly.infi.net> wrote:
>
>It just seems that it could *appear* you have a total mal ... even though
>that is not the case at all. Perhaps something is out, but in the heat
>of a tense situation, you simply don't see it ... perhaps it's not obvious.
>So, to save time, you go straight for the silver handle, and have an
>entanglement. Wouldn't it be far simplier to just grab the cutaway pad, yank
>that, and then go for the reserve handle? Unless you've deployed very low,
>shouldn't you have adequate time for both?
I agree with you in theory. In reality, during a high-speed
malfunction, time goes by _really_ fast. If you dump at 2500 feet,
you'll probably be at 2 grand before you realize that something is
wrong, and 12 seconds from impact. Many people have gone in with only
the cutaway handle pulled, or with the cutaway pulled and the reserve
handle pulled too low for the reserve to have time to inflate.
If I was sure I had altitude, I would definitely pull both handles. But
if time is rushing by and altitude is going fast - you are still at
terminal - I'm going to concentrate on that silver handle first. That's
the one that will give me the best chance at survival. Its REALLY easy
to lose track of altitude during any malfunction, most especially a
high-speed one.
Wen
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=- Wendy Faulkner =- "He's dead Jim, You get his tricorder
=- faul...@eco.utexas.edu =- and I'll get his wallet."
=- D-17441 NCB#3 =-
James
Rita wrote:
> Or am I, as is often the case, missing something here?
Rita,I asked the same question about cutting away with PC in tow.
The replys I recieved were on two fronts.
1. Depending on the type of rig you have,the loose risers "could"
inhibit reserve deployment.
2."I'm with you,although it seems to me a partial would be something
out,not just a PC in tow,I'm cutting first".
Me thinks..if I am at 1500 or up(I pull at 3000) I am cutting away
first.I have read incidence reports where reserve deployed into main
resulted in a fatality.Pull,pull in order...and if you are low put as
much nylon out as possible.
That's what I have heard,that's what I believe and that's what I am
gonna do.
But that's me,a newbee with the belief I ain't gonna die!(not soon
anyway!)
James Johnson
74 jumps and
still "B" learning
Jagermamma
On jump #305, I did a nice 5-way, tracked, and pulled with plenty of altitude.
Nothing happened, so I looked behind me to see what was going on. My pilot
chute was out, but uninflated because the bridle was knotted all around it. It
was a mess! I thought (for a nano-second) about reaching back and pulling the
pin manually, but then I decided not to because I could end up with a
horseshoe, which would be worse.
I thought about what all my intructors had told me to do when faced with a
pilot chute in tow....."don't worry about cutting away with a pilot chute in
tow, there is nothing to cut away, you're still at terminal velocity and need
to get something out, NOW!" So that is just what I did, I went straight for
the silver handle. I felt the familiar opening shock, said "WHEW!" and looked
up to check my canopy...Guess What?!?! The shift in the container from the
reserve coming out had caused the main pin to dislodge and now my main was out
and climbing my reseve lines! Not a pretty thing to see, I assure you! I
cutaway the main and it left cleanly (THANK GOD!!!).
I am not ever going straight for the reserve handle again! I was very lucky
for getting out of this situation with no injuries or worse. I could have
very easily had a wrap and gotten killed. I hope my story may enlighten some
people to the possibilities of what can happen if you don't cut away before
going for that reserve.
Blue Ones!
Gretchen
http://www.skygoddess.com
Peter Liemberg
On 23 Jun 1998 14:55:46 GMT, faul...@eco.utexas.edu (Wendy Faulkner)
wrote:
>In article <358FC7...@philly.infi.net>,
>Rita <kr...@philly.infi.net> wrote:
>>
>>It just seems that it could *appear* you have a total mal ... even though
>>that is not the case at all. Perhaps something is out, but in the heat
>>of a tense situation, you simply don't see it ... perhaps it's not obvious.
>>So, to save time, you go straight for the silver handle, and have an
>>entanglement. Wouldn't it be far simplier to just grab the cutaway pad, yank
>>that, and then go for the reserve handle? Unless you've deployed very low,
>>shouldn't you have adequate time for both?
>
>
>I agree with you in theory. In reality, during a high-speed
>malfunction, time goes by _really_ fast. If you dump at 2500 feet,
>you'll probably be at 2 grand before you realize that something is
>wrong, and 12 seconds from impact. Many people have gone in with only
>the cutaway handle pulled, or with the cutaway pulled and the reserve
>handle pulled too low for the reserve to have time to inflate.
>
>If I was sure I had altitude, I would definitely pull both handles. But
>if time is rushing by and altitude is going fast - you are still at
>terminal - I'm going to concentrate on that silver handle first. That's
>the one that will give me the best chance at survival. Its REALLY easy
>to lose track of altitude during any malfunction, most especially a
>high-speed one.
>
>Wen
--------------------------------
Sorry Wendy, but I disagree; one 'drill' is good enough for me, even
if under a high speed mal. Being an avid user of the pull out system,
I feel I reduced the possibility of a pc in tow due to a packing error
to practicaly zero. If I *did* something to open the main its "first
cut away, then pull reserve". ONLY if I havent opened the main (cant
find the pad) it may be "silver handle only". I dont *look / analyze*
whats above my head (Its clearly not doing what its supposed to do, so
why bother?)
I think I usualy have adequate time to do both - at least I try to
open at altitudes that make this line of action always possible.
Just this weekend it was proven in the Netherlands that pulling your
reserve handle first 'to save valuable time (?)' can be just as lethal
as 'wasting valuable time' by first cutting away.
Losing track of altitude during a high speed mal happens to those that
gave up on counting after the initial opening action.
If its not there in five seconds, its time for the drill - and there
should be only one drill.
Furthermore, if something is pulling you in an upright position but it
isn't stopping your fall, you probably would cut it away without
hesitation (since you actualy see it); thruth of the matter is that
that 'something' could result in as much falling speed as your pc in
tow / belly to earth type malfunction; I have seen a video of a
malfunctioning tandem where the tandempair, after initialy 'being
pulled out of the frame', apparently gained speed on the cameraman,
due to their upright bodyposition.So, since it just may appear to be a
different situation but in fact it may be the same in terms of speed
and altitude...
(Should we be doing this to young Rita ? Well, she's been around the
ng long enough & there's always the cypres - Oops, other thread...)
*********************************************
Tandem JM/I DZO; "When I get my Z licence
I probably don't need a parachute anymore..."
Ted Willson
> Wouldn't it be far simplier to just grab the cutaway pad, yank
> that, and then go for the reserve handle? Unless you've deployed very low,
> shouldn't you have adequate time for both?
>
I think USPA makes it's recommendations largely based on past history. More
people have bounced after a PC in tow followed by reserve inflated too low,
compared to people who went in with a main PC/reserve entaglement. Therefore,
they recommend not cutting away. They're playing the odds.
However, just about everyone I've surveyed ignore that recommendation, and
said they would cut away first. So would I. My reasoning is: 1) I pull at 3K,
and 2) I have an AAD. I know the later isn't supposed to effect my actions,
but when it comes to playing the odds, I think it's a major factor in cases
like this.
Ted
SKY...@ix.netcom.com
Wendy Faulkner wrote:
> In article <358FC7...@philly.infi.net>,
> Rita <kr...@philly.infi.net> wrote:
> >
> >It just seems that it could *appear* you have a total mal ... even though
> >that is not the case at all. Perhaps something is out, but in the heat
> >of a tense situation, you simply don't see it ... perhaps it's not obvious.
> >So, to save time, you go straight for the silver handle, and have an
> >entanglement. Wouldn't it be far simplier to just grab the cutaway pad, yank
> >that, and then go for the reserve handle? Unless you've deployed very low,
> >shouldn't you have adequate time for both?
>
> I agree with you in theory. In reality, during a high-speed
> malfunction, time goes by _really_ fast. If you dump at 2500 feet,
> you'll probably be at 2 grand before you realize that something is
> wrong, and 12 seconds from impact. Many people have gone in with only
> the cutaway handle pulled, or with the cutaway pulled and the reserve
> handle pulled too low for the reserve to have time to inflate.
>
> If I was sure I had altitude, I would definitely pull both handles. But
> if time is rushing by and altitude is going fast - you are still at
> terminal - I'm going to concentrate on that silver handle first. That's
> the one that will give me the best chance at survival. Its REALLY easy
> to lose track of altitude during any malfunction, most especially a
> high-speed one.
>
> Wen
As you grow up in life you will be called upon to make decisions and to choose
which path you wish to follow, life is mostly self regulation and no one should
blindly follow the path of another. Skydiving is very similar, along the way you
will have to make decisions with which you may literally live or die by! You will
need to decide amongst many other things whether you want a big slow old truck
like canopy, or a racy young hotdog. Whether you want a square or round reserve, a
pullout or boc, legstrap/bellyband (aaarrrgggghhhh) throwaway or even a ripcord
(surely not - don't laugh! Mike 'Michigan' Sandberg, one of the worlds best
skydivers was still using one last time I saw him). You will need to decide on an
AOD/AA hard or soft hat or no hat at all, whether to use an altimeter or to rely
on your perfect vision, contacts or glasses. Should you have an RSL, connected or
disconnected for this jump or not. What your absolutely minimum exit altitude is
in an aircraft emergency and at what altitude you would go straight to your
reserve. What disciplines you will follow, what size groups you are happy to jump
with, who you will never jump on a load with and who you are always comfortable to
jump with. WHETHER YOU WILL CUTAWAY BEFORE DEPLOYING YOUR RESERVE OR NOT? Do not
make those decisions lightly, have a plan, when the time comes to make many of the
required decisions in skydiving you better have a plan to go to real damn quick!
Pre thought out scenarios and planning can make you a safer skydiver but the
decisions you make should be your own! My plan when coming up in this sport as in
the whole game of life, has been to gather as much information as possible from
those whose opinions I respect, regardless of whether or not I actually agree with
them. I make a for and against list, lock myself away in a quiet place and weigh
each against the other until I have a plan of action that suits me and me alone.
This way if I choose the wrong route at least it was the route I was happy to
take, 'til that very last moment at least! :-O
Blue ones,
Stay Safe.
Martin Evans.
--
"Never confuse movement with action". Ernest Hemingway
kleggo
Jagermamma <jager...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199806231627...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>
[snip]
The shift in the container from the
> reserve coming out had caused the main pin to dislodge and now my main
was out
> and climbing my reseve lines! Not a pretty thing to see, I assure you!
I
> cutaway the main and it left cleanly (THANK GOD!!!).
>
> I am not ever going straight for the reserve handle again! I was very
lucky
> for getting out of this situation with no injuries or worse. I could
have
> very easily had a wrap and gotten killed.
> Gretchen
> http://www.skygoddess.com
i too will most likely in every case cutaway prior to initiating reserve
deployment
but
in this case i fail to see how cutting away prior to reserve deployment
would have changed the situation.
1) you cutaway & nothing leaves, you deploy your reserve, the main comes
out, catches air and leaves due to your
cutting away
or
2) the scenario you describe.
both events have the same outcome.
'course if you weren't aware enough, after reserve deployment to see what
was trying to kill you things might have happened differently.
congrat's.
you're living on self-induced-bonus-time.
kleggo
Patrick Wilson
SKY...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Wendy Faulkner wrote:
>
> > In article <358FC7...@philly.infi.net>,
> > Rita <kr...@philly.infi.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >It just seems that it could *appear* you have a total mal ... even though
> > >that is not the case at all. Perhaps something is out, but in the heat
> > >of a tense situation, you simply don't see it ... perhaps it's not obvious.
> > >So, to save time, you go straight for the silver handle, and have an
> > >entanglement. Wouldn't it be far simplier to just grab the cutaway pad, yank
> > >that, and then go for the reserve handle? Unless you've deployed very low,
> > >shouldn't you have adequate time for both?
> >
> > I agree with you in theory. In reality, during a high-speed
> > malfunction, time goes by _really_ fast. If you dump at 2500 feet,
> > you'll probably be at 2 grand before you realize that something is
> > wrong, and 12 seconds from impact. Many people have gone in with only
> > the cutaway handle pulled, or with the cutaway pulled and the reserve
> > handle pulled too low for the reserve to have time to inflate.
> >
> > If I was sure I had altitude, I would definitely pull both handles. But
> > if time is rushing by and altitude is going fast - you are still at
> > terminal - I'm going to concentrate on that silver handle first. That's
> > the one that will give me the best chance at survival. Its REALLY easy
> > to lose track of altitude during any malfunction, most especially a
> > high-speed one.
> >
> > Wen
We discussed this at the AFF cert course @ davis a few weeks ago. We all
agreed that you cutaway, anytime you have launched the pilot-chute, be
it ripcord, boc, leg, etc... Makes the decision tree quicker, and easier
to deal with.
just my 2 cents
--
Peace,
Patrick Wilson "It is a violation of my basic human
NSD System Administrator rights, making me work for my own
(V):650-933-6890 paycheck.Welfare should not be reformed"
(P):patri...@pager.sgi.com From a talk show I saw 3/11/98
Craig Poxon
>In article <358FC7...@philly.infi.net>,
> Rita <kr...@philly.infi.net> wrote:
>>
>> Why would someone not want to cutaway before deploying the reserve?
>[SNIP]
>> Wouldn't it be far simplier to just grab the cutaway pad, yank
>> that, and then go for the reserve handle? Unless you've deployed very low,
>> shouldn't you have adequate time for both?
>>
>
>I think USPA makes it's recommendations largely based on past history. More
>people have bounced after a PC in tow followed by reserve inflated too low,
>compared to people who went in with a main PC/reserve entaglement. Therefore,
>they recommend not cutting away. They're playing the odds.
>
>However, just about everyone I've surveyed ignore that recommendation, and
>said they would cut away first. So would I. My reasoning is: 1) I pull at 3K,
>and 2) I have an AAD. I know the later isn't supposed to effect my actions,
>but when it comes to playing the odds, I think it's a major factor in cases
>like this.
>
>Ted
>
Hey, could this be a new thread, "What height to pull at?"
With only 42 jumps, I'm still pulling at 3,500 feet. I remember
thinking, "God, this looks low!" when I first pulled at that height,
even though I had done a dozen static-line jumps from a similar or
lower height. I still can't imagine pulling from very much lower;
3,000 sounds comfortable to me.
Was it Wendy who said earlier that if you pull at 2.5 by the time you
realise you have a problem, you are 12 seconds away from impact; I
think I'd rather have a few extra seconds of safety time than
free-fall time, even from 10,000.
Now two people in this thread have said they pull at 3. Is this common
or is everyone pulling at 2.5? Anyone out there with 'thousands' of
jumps pulling 'high' (CReW dogs need not apply)? Don't you get bored
with only being able to say goodbye to the pilots and tandems all the
time? ;-)
Craig
http://www.cpoxon.dircon.co.uk/Skydive/
p.s. I'd cutaway first unless I was really low.
M.A. Lovinger
On 23 Jun 1998 03:31:06 GMT, sstoe...@aol.com (SStoer4649) wrote:
I forgot to include that there was a bag lock with the bridle wraped
around the bag.
M.A.Lovinger
>mlov...@bellsouth.net (M.A. Lovinger) wrote:
><snip>
>The catapult was a secondary cause of the incident. Mick Cottle, according to
>Ed Cummings, said "the cause was firing a reserve into the main." I
>would tend to agree with them.
><snip>
>My figuring says that first off, don't be stupid and not chop before
>pulling the reserve.
><snip>
>I'm sure that many other people have differing opinions, and I would like to
>hear them.
>
>I'm just a newbie so correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the USPA reccomend
>going to reserve and not waste time cutting away with a pilot chute in tow?
>
>Steve
Jagermamma
>Subject: Re: Fatality at Crosskeys, or Reflexgate
>From: "kleggo" <cra...@cryogen-inc.com> Wrote:
>in this case i fail to see how cutting away prior to reserve deployment
>would have changed the situation.
It would have been different, because if I had cutaway, before deploying my
reserve, my main would have just left when it started inflating, rather than
climb up my reserve lines. Big difference in my book!
jkl
As long as this debate has been opened up (again), I'll add my 2c's with
this: I was taught as a student, and taught as an instructor on
teaching students, that if one handle is pulled, they ALL get pulled, IN
PROPER SEQUENCE. If the main has not been pulled, then it's OK to go
straight to the reserve. Once the main has been pulled, regardless of
whether nothing is out, just the pilot chute is out, or anything else of
any degree is out, THEN YOU MUST FOLLOW WITH ALL HANDLES IN PROPER &
PRACTICED ORDER. The more variations you add to the equation, the more
confusion you add to the situation. This is an opinion about this
emergency procedure only. I am not posting an opinion on Denise's
incident. Those facts are just not available. I do agree with Winsor
that a wake-up call is in order, especially for those who have questions
about basic procedures. Have a plan; stick to the plan.
Our deepest sympathies to all Denise's family and friends, and all my
bud's back home.
Blue skies,
janet & fred
Rooster wrote:
>
> It sounds to me like the jury is still out on whether it was a pc in tow or
> whether the main was out and the reserve deployed into it. As for me, if I ever
> have a pc in tow, I will be cutting away as well because one never knows if the
> main will come out during or right after your reserve deployment. I have heard
> and read about it happening more than once.
>
> my 2c anyhow.
>
> SStoer4649 wrote:
>
> > mlov...@bellsouth.net (M.A. Lovinger) wrote:
> > <snip>
> > The catapult was a secondary cause of the incident. Mick Cottle, according to
> > Ed Cummings, said "the cause was firing a reserve into the main." I
> > would tend to agree with them.
> > <snip>
> > My figuring says that first off, don't be stupid and not chop before
> > pulling the reserve.
> > <snip>
> > I'm sure that many other people have differing opinions, and I would like to
> > hear them.
> >
> > I'm just a newbie so correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the USPA reccomend
> > going to reserve and not waste time cutting away with a pilot chute in tow?
> >
> > Steve
>
to...@ibm.net
3K is what I consider my "standard" pull altitude for
solo jumps.
If doing video, then I dump at the break off (camera dude
owns the center of a formation and gets to pull in place)
The lowest I've ever pulled was 2K. On a camera jump I
didn't have quite enough suite to stay up with an 8-way
once it had gotten together and had begun to sink below
them by 5K. I knew their breakoff was coming up soon
and didn't want to have someone turn and track into me
so I just turned and burned early, and took it down to the
BSR minimum.
In *general*, I'd rather have a few extra seconds of time
during a mal than log a few extra seconds of freefall time.
The difference between 2K and 3K can be chopping it and
not chopping it if the mal is something like severe line twists.
I had about a dozen line twists on one jump last year and
had time to kick out because I pulled at 3. If I'd pulled at 2,
I would have had to cut it away cuz it took me until about
1800 to get it sorted out.
Tony
Ray Ferrell
Rooster wrote:
> As for me, if I ever have a pc in tow, I will be cutting away as well because one >never knows if the main will come out during or right after your reserve deployment. >I have heard and read about it happening more than once.
>
> my 2c anyhow.
>
to is bad Ju-Ju. And is NOT USPA recommendation.
You are badly mistaken here. Take a ride through the last 10 years of
fatality reports and you will see every year people dying after pulling
cutaway handles instead of reserve ripcords. Look at the statistics. I
challenge you to find any fatality caused by pulling the reserve ripcord
with a pilot chute in tow. If you can come up with one, I challenge you
to show how pulling the cutaway handle first would have changed the end
result.
If you have a P/C in tow, fire the reserve. Now if the main comes out,
deal with it. Because now you have time! By cutting away first, you
waist valuable time, and the now released main risers are just more
stuff for the reserve P/C to get caught by.
Assume a main deployment at 2,000'. P/C in Tow. You now have 12 seconds
at best. You've got to identify the problem (3-4 sec.), look for the
cutaway handle and pull it (2 sec.), fire the reserve (1 sec.). You now
have 5 sec. left for a clean reserve deployment, release the brakes,
turn into the wind, avoid obstacles and land. Good luck!
If this works for you, great. But please do not try to lead others down
your path. most of us are not that good, or lucky.
I've had to deal with this type of fatality as the S&TA. Again, People
do not die pulling reserve ripcords.
**Regarding Tandem, see Tandem Vector's owners manual. Drogue in Tow,
Pull reserve!
Sincerely,
Ray Ferrell,
USPA Director, Pacific Region
AFF I, Tandem Vector IE, DPRE
Ray Ferrell
>
> We discussed this at the AFF cert course @ davis a few weeks ago. We all
> agreed that you cutaway, anytime you have launched the pilot-chute, be
> it ripcord, boc, leg, etc... Makes the decision tree quicker, and easier
> to deal with.
>
> just my 2 cents
Patrick,
This is NOT what we teach at SkyDance SkyDiving in Davis, CA. This may
be what Don Yarling convinced you of. Don tried to, and almost convinced
the USPA BOD to change USPA recommendation for how to deal with a pilot
chute in tow. But once the full BOD dicussed it, sound reasoning
prevailed.
Here's our (SkyDance's) pholociphy: We train people to be skydivers, not
just to survive student status! This is the very reason we do not use
SOS for students. Because it is not the skills necessary to survive when
you become a skydiver, using different equipment and pulling at 2,000'.
I acknowledge that teaching students to pull the cutaway after you have
launched the main pilot chute will work, almost every time, FOR
STUDENTS! It is not the right thing to do when you are 12 seconds from
impact.
The first Fatility that I had to deal with at SkyDance was a Navy Dr.
who had been trained at another DZ. She was trained to cutaway from a
P/C in tow. She had a P/C in tow, took too long to figure it out, pulled
her cutaway handle and died.
Here's the text of my letter from a year ago. Cutting away from a P/C
in to is bad Ju-Ju. And is NOT USPA recommendation:
You are badly mistaken here. Take a ride through the last 10 years of
fatality reports and you will see every year people dying after pulling
cutaway handles instead of reserve ripcords. Look at the statistics. I
challenge you to find any fatality caused by pulling the reserve
ripcord with a pilot chute in tow. If you can come up with one, I
challenge you to show how pulling the cutaway handle first would have
changed the end
result.
If you have a P/C in tow, fire the reserve. Now if the main comes out,
deal with it. Because now you have time! By cutting away first, you
waist valuable time, and the now released main risers are just more
stuff for the reserve P/C to get caught by.
Assume a main deployment at 2,000'. P/C in Tow. You now have 12
seconds at best. You've got to identify the problem (3-4 sec.), look
for the cutaway handle and pull it (2 sec.), fire the reserve (1 sec.).
You now have 5 sec. left for a clean reserve deployment, release the
brakes, turn into the wind, avoid obstacles and land. Good luck!
If this works for you, great. But please do not try to lead others
down your path. most of us are not that good, or lucky.
I've had to deal with this type of fatality as the S&TA. Again, People
do not die pulling reserve ripcords.
Sincerely,
Ray Ferrell,
USPA Director, Pacific Region
AFF I, Tandem Vector IE, DPRE
Patrick Wilson wrote:
> > > >It just seems that it could *appear* you have a total mal ... even though
> > > >that is not the case at all. Perhaps something is out, but in the heat
> > > >of a tense situation, you simply don't see it ... perhaps it's not obvious.
> > > >So, to save time, you go straight for the silver handle, and have an
> > > >entanglement. Wouldn't it be far simplier to just grab the cutaway pad, yank
> > > >that, and then go for the reserve handle? Unless you've deployed very low,
> > > >shouldn't you have adequate time for both?
> > >
Rooster
Ray,
After reading your response and the remainder of the responses in the thread so far, Also including Gretchen's experience in the list of incidents where NOT cutting away could have been fatal, (I haven't searched for the fatality
stories, but I have read of three others besides Gretchen's where the main came out after reserve deployment. In all 4 of these cases, the problem was corrected, but it isn't something I would like to deal with) It sounds to me like
the problem is not the cutting away that kills people but that people are spending too much time finding their handles, and between cutting away and pulling their reserve. Way back when I was in AFF, we were taught to get both handles
pulled as quickly as possible. The 2 sec and 1 sec times you describe are way too slow an I agree if it takes you that long for you to get your handles pulled, you should forget about the cutaway pillow and go straight for the
silver. I am not trying to sound Holy or anything but In any case, I practice finding my handles at least twice on every ride up so I can KNOW where they are and whenever a reserve ride is needed, I punch the cutaway and then try to
beat the RSL to my reserve. There is no way I am going to sit around for 3 seconds waiting for the ground to spank me. The whole process should take less than 1 second.
jared
Ray Ferrell wrote:
> Rooster wrote:
> > As for me, if I ever have a pc in tow, I will be cutting away as well because one >never knows if the main will come out during or right after your reserve deployment. >I have heard and read about it happening more than once.
> >
> > my 2c anyhow.
> >
> Here's the text of my letter from a year ago. Cutting away from a P/C in
> to is bad Ju-Ju. And is NOT USPA recommendation.
>
> You are badly mistaken here. Take a ride through the last 10 years of
> fatality reports and you will see every year people dying after pulling
> cutaway handles instead of reserve ripcords. Look at the statistics. I
> challenge you to find any fatality caused by pulling the reserve ripcord
> with a pilot chute in tow. If you can come up with one, I challenge you
> to show how pulling the cutaway handle first would have changed the end
> result.
>
> If you have a P/C in tow, fire the reserve. Now if the main comes out,
> deal with it. Because now you have time! By cutting away first, you
> waist valuable time, and the now released main risers are just more
> stuff for the reserve P/C to get caught by.
>
> Assume a main deployment at 2,000'. P/C in Tow. You now have 12 seconds
> at best. You've got to identify the problem (3-4 sec.), look for the
> cutaway handle and pull it (2 sec.), fire the reserve (1 sec.). You now
> have 5 sec. left for a clean reserve deployment, release the brakes,
> turn into the wind, avoid obstacles and land. Good luck!
>
> If this works for you, great. But please do not try to lead others down
> your path. most of us are not that good, or lucky.
>
> I've had to deal with this type of fatality as the S&TA. Again, People
> do not die pulling reserve ripcords.
>
> **Regarding Tandem, see Tandem Vector's owners manual. Drogue in Tow,
> Pull reserve!
> Sincerely,
> Ray Ferrell,
> USPA Director, Pacific Region
> AFF I, Tandem Vector IE, DPRE
--
Winsor Naugler III
Ray Ferrell wrote in message <359042...@ix.netcom.com>...
>Rooster wrote:
>> As for me, if I ever have a pc in tow, I will be cutting away as well
because one >never knows if the main will come out during or right after
your reserve deployment. >I have heard and read about it happening more
than once.
>>
>> my 2c anyhow.
>>
>Here's the text of my letter from a year ago. Cutting away from a P/C in
>to is bad Ju-Ju. And is NOT USPA recommendation.
>
>You are badly mistaken here. Take a ride through the last 10 years of
>fatality reports and you will see every year people dying after pulling
>cutaway handles instead of reserve ripcords. Look at the statistics. I
>challenge you to find any fatality caused by pulling the reserve ripcord
>with a pilot chute in tow. If you can come up with one, I challenge you
>to show how pulling the cutaway handle first would have changed the end
>result.
>
So who's suggesting pulling one handle, then the other? If you think I'm
reaching for one handle at at time, you're going to be disappointed.
Sure, if I'm high and the main's out but doing ugly things, I'll wait for
that "ching!" of the three-rings before firing the reserve. If I've pitched
and nothing is happening, those handles get pulled simultaneously -- no
delay at all.
My procedure is, and has been, to go for one hand per handle. Unless a
particular handle is stitched in place, it's coming loose on the first try,
and being sewn in might not slow things down much, anyway.
So far, so good.
Blue skies,
Winsor
Wendy Faulkner
In article <359066D2...@xmission.comnospam>,
Rooster <r...@xmission.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>silver. I am not trying to sound Holy or anything but In any case, I practice finding my handles at least twice on every ride up so I can KNOW where they are and whenever a reserve ride is needed, I punch the cutaway and then try to
>beat the RSL to my reserve. There is no way I am going to sit around for 3 seconds waiting for the ground to spank me. The whole process should take less than 1 second.
Ok. You've checked your handles on the way up - have you ever checked
your handles on the way down? In freefall? Tried to find them - maybe
without looking? Rigs shift. Harnesses slide. I know on my rig they
usually end up higher towards my chest than they are in the plane. My
instinctive reach in freefall is generally a touch on the low side. But
every rig and every person is different.
And in malfunctions where you have some sort of canopy out - where you
might be spinning violently - I speak from personal experience - they
can be hard to find. I found my reserve handle once stretched a good
foot from my body on one spinning mal (and this was on a small,
custom-fit harness. Who knows how far it would have gone on a bigger
harness.) I found it once up by my shoulder on a CRW wrap (in both cases
I was in a nasty spin to the left.) Another spinning mal had the
handles in the normal position just where I expected them. There was a
case a few months back of an experienced jumper who's pillow reserve
handle had slid back behind his body. They move.
The above experiences aren't quite so applicable to pilot chutes in tow,
but its important to remember, things may be not just how you expect them
to be. If you don't see it - do you have a plan for finding it?
Quickly? Your life could depend on it.
Luke Oliver
Next thought:
An alti check shows 1,100 feet. We haven't broken off.
Do I pull my handles in sequence - or just pump out a reserve?
Do I bother to cutaway the main in the few seconds I have prior to landing?
(if only to eliminate the risk of having both out)
I think if faced with the situation (please spare me the "what are you doing
there in the first place", it's a hypothetical) I'd pull the silver handle,
turn into the wind and land. Any dissent?
I wasn't taught this on my student course :-)
L.
Rooster
Amen. If you haven't dumped your pc yet, it is no more likely to come out now than
in freefall so the cutaway is irrelevant to the situation. But if the pc is out,
there is always the chance of a main deployment.
Luke Oliver wrote:
--
SKY...@ix.netcom.com
Winsor Naugler III wrote:
> So who's suggesting pulling one handle, then the other? If you think I'm
> reaching for one handle at at time, you're going to be disappointed.
>
> Sure, if I'm high and the main's out but doing ugly things, I'll wait for
> that "ching!" of the three-rings before firing the reserve. If I've pitched
> and nothing is happening, those handles get pulled simultaneously -- no
> delay at all.
>
> My procedure is, and has been, to go for one hand per handle. Unless a
> particular handle is stitched in place, it's coming loose on the first try,
> and being sewn in might not slow things down much, anyway.
>
It's a bit like using a knife and fork really, in Europe we learn to use them
simultaneously, not to use one then put it down before going for the other.
Perhaps if USPA could teach the secrets of ambidextrousity we wouldn't be having
this debate! ;-)
Mike Spurgeon
Luke Oliver wrote:
>
> Next thought:
>
> An alti check shows 1,100 feet. We haven't broken off.
>
> Do I pull my handles in sequence - or just pump out a reserve?
You are at an altitude that gives you one, and virtually certain
to be only one, opportunity to get a functioning parachute over
your head. Which one do *you* trust to work every time? Seems
like a no-brainer to me.
> Do I bother to cutaway the main in the few seconds I have prior to landing?
What main??? You haven't broken off, according to what you just
said.
> I think if faced with the situation (please spare me the "what are you doing
> there in the first place", it's a hypothetical) I'd pull the silver handle,
> turn into the wind and land. Any dissent?
Not from me.
> I wasn't taught this on my student course
Bet you were...
bs
Mike Spurgeon
to...@ibm.net
In <luke-24069...@152.146.130.109>, lu...@ozemail.com.au (Luke Oliver) writes:
>
> Next thought:
>
> An alti check shows 1,100 feet. We haven't broken off.
>
> Do I pull my handles in sequence - or just pump out a reserve?
>
>
> there in the first place", it's a hypothetical) I'd pull the silver handle,
> turn into the wind and land. Any dissent?
>
>
>L.
If you're in a group that's cruising through 1,100ft it's about
time to show them some nylon as a wake up call. And since
at that altitude, you've only got time to bet on one parachute,
I'd go for the $40 pack job with the canopy designed to
open fast.
FWIW, my own personal hard deck for this decision starts at
1800 feet. One of my Triathlons will routinely snivel for 1000ft
if packed for a non-slammer opening.
This is one situation where the presence of a Cypres might
affect your decision. Going for your main, and then sniveling
through the hard deck for a Cypres would be a real bummer.
Tony
Ross Fenton
The height I pull at depend on the spot. If I am dead on or short I will
go for a 2500 pull, otherwise 3 to 3.5 is good for me. Though I have
pulled at 1200 ft after all three on the jump lost altitude awareness.
Ross
ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com
In article <luke-24069...@152.146.130.109>,
lu...@ozemail.com.au (Luke Oliver) wrote:
>
>
> Next thought:
>
> An alti check shows 1,100 feet. We haven't broken off.
Okay, when I was there.... Okay, not exactly, it was
probably 2000 and an 8-way and I couldn't figure out why
the girl on the other side turned tracked and dumped not
10 feet from the star. It all started to sink in as
I noticed the cloud deck had gone by (2000 base) and
that tree looked DAMN big. Of course I had started tracking
by then. I dumped, looked at my altimeter and about the
time I thought RESERVE I was getting opening shock. I saw
1200 on the alti when I felt the shock.
>
> Do I pull my handles in sequence - or just pump out a reserve?
What SHOULD you do or what WILL you do?
>
> Do I bother to cutaway the main in the few seconds I have prior to landing?
> (if only to eliminate the risk of having both out)
See above.
>
> I think if faced with the situation (please spare me the "what are you
doing
> there in the first place", it's a hypothetical) I'd pull the silver handle,
> turn into the wind and land. Any dissent?
All sounds good. Problem is, as more than one story teller here
has told, you will probably dump faster than you will think. Its
like trying not to flinch when someone throws a fake punch. The part
of the brain that dumps is different than the part that is figuring
out that you are low. And it is generally faster.
Emergency exits from a plane are different enough that
I still assume that I will pull the reserve on a low exit. But I
long ago gave up assuming that I will go for a reserve first
in the situations you suggest. The main will probably get
dumped faster than I can realize what is happening. My drill
is to get to the other handles quickly. If that main isn't opening
FAST, its gonna have to get chopped and replaced. I may also
entertain a canopy transfer but I can't imagine too many scenarios
(although my Stilleto does suggest a few on occasion) that will
justify this.
Basically I assume these days that in situations like you
describe, I will dump first and think second. I'm gonna go straight
to the other handles and look up see what's there. It better be
good or its gone. But at that time, at that altitude its better to
be acting alot and thinking a little than the other way around.
Whole buncha folks gone in doing too much thinking. Only a few
folks go in for pulling too many handles. And none really
for pullin' 'em in the right order.
Kevin O'Connell
BVAskydive
>And in malfunctions where you have some sort of canopy out - where you
>might be spinning violently - I speak from personal experience - they
>can be hard to find.
Oh yes, on my only malfunction last year (knock on wood), I had a hard spinning
mal, found my cutaway handle on my custom rig up on my shoulder! It took both
of my hands to get it out, and I bench-press about 150 lbs!
Blue Skies
Billy
BVAskydive
> An alti check shows 1,100 feet. We haven't broken off.
>
do you mean haven't broken off an RW dive by 1100 feet? If so, just turn
180degrees or at least enough away from your jump-mates and pull the silver
handle with your legs extended for a little bit of a track. Best chances in
that scenario, I would think...
Blue Skies
Billy Vance
RHallifax
>We discussed this at the AFF cert course @ davis a few weeks ago. We all
>agreed that you cutaway, anytime you have launched the pilot-chute, be
>it ripcord, boc, leg, etc... Makes the decision tree quicker, and easier
>to deal with.
>Patrick Wilson
Pat: could you give me a little more explanation. I haven't had a mal yet. So
I wonder if I will be able to determine what the heck is wrong. In addition,
it occurs to me that I shouldn't even be going thru mental analysis at that
point, as there's little time, and this causes confusion. Finally, I wonder if
going thru mental analysis in this high speed situation can cause "brainlock,"
as some people go in with no handles pulled.
Bob
RHallifax
> If you have a P/C in tow, fire the reserve. Now if the main comes out,
>deal with it. Because now you have time! By cutting away first, you
>waist valuable time, and the now released main risers are just more
>stuff for the reserve P/C to get caught by.
This is what I would plan to do. I guess my question is this: would I know I
have a P/C in tow? How would I know this isn't a horseshoe? Would a horseshoe
feel different on my back? I can barely get my head turned around to look,
and am not convinced that I could physically see the these mals well enough to
make a decision. Since I've never had either mal, I don't even know if my
question, or my thinking, anywhere near reality.
Bob
RHallifax
<<Was it Wendy who said earlier that if you pull at 2.5 by the time you
realise you have a problem, you are 12 seconds away from impact; I
think I'd rather have a few extra seconds of safety time than
free-fall time>>
Craig: 12 sec to impact is different form the the time left to make and
execute a decision: about 6 sec. ..Personally, I think the recommended minimum
deployment of 2000 feet for C & D license holders is a little low. You are
right: altitude is your friend.
Bob
RHallifax
>It's a bit like using a knife and fork really, in Europe we learn to use them
>simultaneously, not to use one then put it down before going for the other.
>Perhaps if USPA could teach the secrets of ambidextrousity we wouldn't be
>having
>this debate! ;-)
>
>Blue ones,
>Stay Safe.
>
>Martin Evans.
Martin: Where do chop sticks come in?
Blue Skies,
Bob
RHallifax
<<Next thought:
An alti check shows 1,100 feet. We haven't broken off.
Do I pull my handles in sequence - or just pump out a reserve?
Do I bother to cutaway the main in the few seconds I have prior to landing?
(if only to eliminate the risk of having both out)
I think if faced with the situation (please spare me the "what are you doing
there in the first place", it's a hypothetical) I'd pull the silver handle,
turn into the wind and land. Any dissent?
I wasn't taught this on my student course :-)
L.>>>
Good question. Could you really make a rational analysis that quickly? I'm
not sure I could. I would probably deploy my main. And that would be touchy,
because it snivels. .... I would think the solution here is to really work on
altitude awareness. And I know that can be a problem with me sometimes.....
Bob
Wild Bill
I pull in place with my main with a hand one each of the cutaway and reserve
handles.
But my pack job is a quick opener. your results may vary. Most would
recomend reserve right away. In that situation dont waste time cutting away
something that is secure in your BOC or leg strap....
wb
Luke Oliver wrote in message ...
A7WIENS
>>have you ever checked
your handles on the way down? In freefall? Tried to find them - maybe
without looking? <<<
I was waiting for my slot to build and took the time to check my handles, first
without looking then, back to my arch for stability-check slot, then again
looking this time- I guess open of the jumpers in the based noticed and out of
fear/concern for himself and the camera guy turned 180 and tracked like I have
never seen- the rest of the based assumed something had gone way wrong and
bolted too- So there I was waiting for the divers- no idea where the camera guy
is at this point- so I turned too, hummed it a little low cause I didn't want
to be in anyone space. When I got down there was a little finger pointing and
suggestions were made- if you are going to fondle your handles(which we decide
everyone is entitled to do and any moment) you can't look tense of worried-
preferably let people know what is up- do it on a jump with no camera- But you
are right- they are in different places than under canopy or walking around.
Thanks for great advice.
moshe...@kla-tencor.com
Patrick Wilson <patr...@stiletto.engr.sgi.com> wrote:
>
> We discussed this at the AFF cert course @ davis a few weeks ago. We all
> agreed that you cutaway, anytime you have launched the pilot-chute, be
> it ripcord, boc, leg, etc... Makes the decision tree quicker, and easier
> to deal with.
I guess Ray Ferrell wasn't around, or everyone would NOT have agreed. Ray has
always been a big proponent of going straight to the silver handle in case of
a PC in tow, and posted a strong defense of this position a few weeks ago. I
personally have always felt that a single, well practiced procedure (pull
both handles) would be quicker because you don't lose time thinking, but Ray
was adamant that if people are trained to go straight to the reserve in case
of a pilot chute in tow, and drill that into their heads from day one, that
it will be the faster response. As he put it: you don't want to spend the
rest of your life pulling the cutaway handle when you should have fired the
reserve. I'm not saying this is right- I'm too old and stupid to retrain
myself now- but Ray has a lot more to say about how things are down at Davis
that I do, and for good reason.
Moshe
D-17822
moshe...@kla-tencor.com
rhal...@aol.com (RHallifax) wrote:
>
> <<Next thought:
>
> An alti check shows 1,100 feet. We haven't broken off.
>
> Do I pull my handles in sequence - or just pump out a reserve?
>
> Do I bother to cutaway the main in the few seconds I have prior to landing?
> (if only to eliminate the risk of having both out)
>
>
> not sure I could. I would probably deploy my main. And that would be touchy,
> because it snivels. .... I would think the solution here is to really work
on
> altitude awareness. And I know that can be a problem with me sometimes.....
What I really love about this thread is that despite all of the Cypreses out
there, and the vehement "Do not jump without a Cypres" crowd on this ng, no
one seems to have picked up on this... If you have an AAD, and you're in
freefall at 1,100 feet, you better NOT touch your main pilot chute or you
just bought yourself a one-man personal CRW ride which could get really ugly.
I'm not trying to pick on Bob here- I just grabbed his post to reply to- but
a lot of people with little silver boxes on their reserves better think about
this. If you have an AAD, you had better be able to think this quickly and
decide, "I'm too low, I will not fire the main". If you can't think that
quickly, how are you going to deal with going low while your Cypres is
ticking?
Moshe
D-17822
(Yeah, I know- it doesn't really tick)
AL DELLA PENNA JR
Im a newbie (18+ jumps) but a question came up and I couldnt answer , my first 15
or so jumps I was trained on a SL , single handle system, pulling the handle out
halfway released your main and full extention released your reserve, but my AFF
class(Cross Keys) was a two handle rig (pud and reserve handle) , my question
doesnt the 2 handle rig by nature ask for more problems , like dumping the main
into your reserve?
what are the advantages of the two handle rig?
Thanks still learning
AL (REVID)
SStoer4649 wrote:
> mlov...@bellsouth.net (M.A. Lovinger) wrote:
> <snip>
> The catapult was a secondary cause of the incident. Mick Cottle, according to
> Ed Cummings, said "the cause was firing a reserve into the main." I
> would tend to agree with them.
> <snip>
> My figuring says that first off, don't be stupid and not chop before
> pulling the reserve.
> <snip>
> I'm sure that many other people have differing opinions, and I would like to
> hear them.
>
> I'm just a newbie so correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the USPA reccomend
> going to reserve and not waste time cutting away with a pilot chute in tow?
>
> Steve
Dan Bergmen
Crew Dog (cowboys...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: PULL
: PULL with enough altitude.
: PULL with enough altitude in a stable position.
: Then again I learned on the dope rope. (And Glenn JMed me too.)
: Anyone with stories about shot and a half capewells (sp) and chest reservers
: w/o PCs?
Reserves without pilot chutes were NOT to be used with rigs with shot and
a halfs (or at least a cutaway was specifically not to be done whether
1 1/2 shot s or two shots were installed).
I was in student training during the transition from two shots/hand flake
reserve w/o pilot chutes to 1 1/2 shots, pilot chute in reserve and Steven's
Cutaway System (invented by Perry Stevens and is bascially an RSL for chest
mounts).
I was amazed at how modern, safe and effective this new inovation in
configuration was at the time even though there was a five or six step
process to do a cutaway. With todays equipment, it is so damned easy to
be safe, it is NOTHING like the old days (or even older days than mine).
Dan Bergmen C-9619, D-20276, S/L-JM&I, S&TA
(grab covers, uncover, thumbs in loops, lock thumbs, look at reserve ripcord
handle, ka-chink, cover open capewells, pull reserve....it seemed so easy!).
crwmike
Do not blaspheme the Lord Their God, Cypres!!!!
BSBD,
Michael
D-6139
RHallifax
<<Dan Bergmen C-9619, D-20276, S/L-JM&I, S&TA
(grab covers, uncover, thumbs in loops, lock thumbs, look at reserve ripcord
handle, ka-chink, cover open capewells, pull reserve....it seemed so easy!).>>
Didn't you miss a step between "cover open capewells" and "pull reserve"?
Don't you have to grab the grass so the broken bones don't poke thru you on
your second bounce?
Bob
pfries
Hi,
The thread so far seems to be saying that if you dump the reserve first,
you don't pull the cutaway. I don't see why that should be the case.
Is it too complicated to have a decision tree that says:
1) Something out? cutaway then reserve
2) Nothing out? reserve then cutaway
This seems pretty simple to me. If you are in freefall, pull the reserve
then the cutaway. If you are not in freefall, pull the cutaway then the
reserve.
(If you haven't even started a main deployment, the cutaway will, of course,
do nothing. But it hasn't cost you much either. Also, this is assuming a
situation
where you need a canopy NOW to survive. Other situations require other
decisions.)
Maybe the cutaway after the reserve pull prevents the entanglement, maybe
it doesn't. Sometimes shit just happens. But cutting away and running out
of time is worse.
Is this a plan?
-paul
kleggo wrote:
> Jagermamma <jager...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <199806231627...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> >
> [snip]
>
> The shift in the container from the
> > reserve coming out had caused the main pin to dislodge and now my main
> was out
> > and climbing my reseve lines! Not a pretty thing to see, I assure you!
> I
> > cutaway the main and it left cleanly (THANK GOD!!!).
> >
> > I am not ever going straight for the reserve handle again! I was very
> lucky
> > for getting out of this situation with no injuries or worse. I could
> have
> > very easily had a wrap and gotten killed.
> > Gretchen
> > http://www.skygoddess.com
>
> i too will most likely in every case cutaway prior to initiating reserve
> deployment
>
> but
>
> in this case i fail to see how cutting away prior to reserve deployment
> would have changed the situation.
>
> 1) you cutaway & nothing leaves, you deploy your reserve, the main comes
> out, catches air and leaves due to your
> cutting away
>
> or
>
> 2) the scenario you describe.
>
> both events have the same outcome.
>
> 'course if you weren't aware enough, after reserve deployment to see what
> was trying to kill you things might have happened differently.
>
> congrat's.
>
> you're living on self-induced-bonus-time.
>
> kleggo
Dutty...
BVAskydive wrote:
>
> > An alti check shows 1,100 feet. We haven't broken off.
> >
> > Do I pull my handles in sequence - or just pump out a reserve?
>
> 180degrees or at least enough away from your jump-mates and pull the silver
> handle with your legs extended for a little bit of a track. Best chances in
> that scenario, I would think...
>
> Blue Skies
> Billy Vance
I'm not sure I'd waste any more time by doing a 180, say for example
it's an 8 way, there's the chance that all you'd be doing is turning to
face someone else. I'm also not sure that you'd have a problem opening
in place unless your buddies all did at exactly the same time, chances
are you'd just be giving them a well needed heads up.
So..in summary I think we can conclude....I'm not sure!
Cya
Dutty
DavRob
Dan Bergmen wrote in message <6mrnpo$d...@canyon.sr.hp.com>...
>(grab covers, uncover, thumbs in loops, lock thumbs, look at reserve
ripcord
>handle, ka-chink, cover open capewells, pull reserve....it seemed so
easy!).
Shit! Nobody ever told me to cover the open capewells and I was obviously
too stupid to think of it myself. Jesus! I could have died!
Come to think of it, I was always up the wrong way. I have these vivid
snapshots imprinted in my memory of the 24ft twill going up between my feet.
I had to do my first cutaway for about 20years last month. The first I have
ever done with one hand. Quick, clean and easy! I know its a bit late but
thank you Bill Booth.
air...@my-dejanews.com
I have personally seen people go in with a pilot chute in tow by cutting
away. As far as I understand it, the purpose of the free-bag design is to get
past something like a pilot chute in tow. Why would you cut away and add two
more things (risers) to the equation. This should not be a point of
discussion for people with 75 jumps. Instead of confusing these people, tell
them to call USPA for their recommendation or to follow the advice of their
jumpmasters. We don't need these people out there trying to figure out whose
advice matters during a high speed mal. As for Gretchen - think about what
happened and how you handled it. Bottom line - your training was to pull the
reserve, not cutaway -- it worked, you lived, you landed fine. Why would you
possibly want to change your reaction next time???
Additionally, having come from Denise's funeral, I can only say that the
people speculating on what happened are doing just that, speculating. I
would suggest that people refrain from doing so on the newsgroup until they
know the facts, which they do not. We are all concerned when one of friends
goes in, however, this nonsense on the thewsgroup is totally unproductive and
perhaps even counterproductive. It makes much more sense to wait for the
official (be it USPA or FAA) analysis and then to hear recommendations.
I would suggest, in the meantime, that we continue to follow Ray Ferrell's
advice and not that of someone with 75 jumps who has never experienced a
malfunction, never mind a high-speed malfunction.
Elaine
D-7863
Peter Liemberg
On 24 Jun 1998 15:05:48 GMT, bvask...@aol.com (BVAskydive) wrote:
>> An alti check shows 1,100 feet. We haven't broken off.
>>
>> Do I pull my handles in sequence - or just pump out a reserve?
>
>do you mean haven't broken off an RW dive by 1100 feet? If so, just turn
>180degrees or at least enough away from your jump-mates and pull the silver
>handle with your legs extended for a little bit of a track. Best chances in
>that scenario, I would think...
---------------------
Better yet, let your friends know where you all are in space & time by
deploying yourself 'per silver handle' out of the formation... (most
people wake up if you do that; if not - well there's not much point
going in all together isnt there ?...)
What's the going rate for an audible altimeter nowadays ?
;-)
*********************************************
Tandem JM/I DZO; "When I get my Z licence
I probably don't need a parachute anymore..."
Peter Liemberg
>Im a newbie (18+ jumps) but a question came up and I couldnt answer , my first 15
>or so jumps I was trained on a SL , single handle system, pulling the handle out
>halfway released your main and full extention released your reserve, but my AFF
>class(Cross Keys) was a two handle rig (pud and reserve handle) , my question
>doesnt the 2 handle rig by nature ask for more problems , like dumping the main
>into your reserve?
1. A single hand system as you describe makes it possible to
release the main and then stop (i.e. there IS something hapening when
you cut away - can make you feel like somebody pulled the chair from
under you - people then sometimes forgot there was more to be done
after that, like pulling all the way...) This line of action would
leave you in freefall without anything above your head. You shouldnt
do that but some did & did not survive.
>what are the advantages of the two handle rig?
2. Sounds like an excellent question somebody with 18 jumps in
the midle of his training might ask his instructor. ("Hey he THINKS
about what we tell him !")
3. Then again it also sounds like an excellent question somebody
with 18 jumps might ask on the ng, get 25 different opinions from god
knows who & surprise the folks at Cross Keys with some very creative
solution to a percieved but non existing problem. ("Who told you to do
THAT?" - which is of course the optimistic scenario since you would
have to be alive to answer the question...)
The 2 handle rig, by the way, is the de facto international standard,
if you will the MS-DOS of parachutes - once trained at Cross Keys, you
could come up to my place in the Netherlands, pick a student rig from
the storage room and "Hey all the handles are in place ! They have
goggles ! They have a Protec ! I can choose between chestmount and
handmount altimeter - whatever I'm used to !"
Now if you showed up with only the 15 SL jumps with this single handle
system I simply wouldn't let you jump my gear without extensive
retraining (and I hate retraining - but thats another story...)
Debra Spiro Allen and Mark W. Allen
Screaming through a grand?! Shit, I'd dump straight out of a compressed
accordion. You are completely out of time.
BVAskydive wrote in message
Debra Spiro Allen and Mark W. Allen
I disagree. I do not believe that the presence of an AAD should factor into
your decision tree at all. Consider it there to save your life should you
be knocked unconscious or catastrophically fuck up.
I knew a girl who rode a twisted belly band variety of a PC in tow all the
way down to AAD range. Through no volition of her own she got an inflated
reserve approximately forty feet off the deck. Her response was, and I
quote, "I thought it was a good idea to just relax and let the AAD sort
everything out".
Mark
moshe...@kla-tencor.com wrote in message
<6mrnk6$f5f$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Rhonda Lea
>Additionally, having come from Denise's funeral, I can only say that the
>people speculating on what happened are doing just that, speculating. I
>would suggest that people refrain from doing so on the newsgroup until they
>know the facts, which they do not. We are all concerned when one of friends
>goes in, however, this nonsense on the thewsgroup is totally unproductive and
>perhaps even counterproductive. It makes much more sense to wait for the
>official (be it USPA or FAA) analysis and then to hear recommendations.
This bears repeating, again and again. Thanks, Elaine.
Rhonda Lea Kirk
Hightstown, NJ
609.443.3155
____________________
The only thing that makes life worth living is the willingness to
risk everything. Unless you risk everything, you don't have a life.
Roger Payne
RHallifax
> Her response was, and I
>quote, "I thought it was a good idea to just relax and let the AAD sort
>everything out".
>
>Mark
Well, I suppose. But I don't have an AAD.... So I guess when I'm confronted
with a mal, I'll just have to let God sort it all out. .... (Ya
think?).... I've got a lot of faith in the big guy, but do believe he can use
my help now and again. (a little arrogant, no?)
Anyway, Hope ya got blue skies your way.
Bob
skys...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6mtfvc$sat$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
air...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> Additionally, having come from Denise's funeral, I can only say that the
> people speculating on what happened are doing just that, speculating. I
> would suggest that people refrain from doing so on the newsgroup until they
> know the facts, which they do not. We are all concerned when one of friends
> goes in, however, this nonsense on the thewsgroup is totally unproductive and
> perhaps even counterproductive. It makes much more sense to wait for the
> official (be it USPA or FAA) analysis and then to hear recommendations.
>
> I would suggest, in the meantime, that we continue to follow Ray Ferrell's
> advice and not that of someone with 75 jumps who has never experienced a
> malfunction, never mind a high-speed malfunction.
>
> Elaine
> D-7863
>
I feel a great sadness at the loss of a skydiver. I would like to give all
those who knew her my condolences.
This thread has not so much been a discourse on what she did or did not do as
it is a discussion on how to deal with a PC in tow and other situations. I'm
sure all skydivers would hope that others will learn from problems that we
may have had; be they fatal or not. I have enjoyed reading the discussions
and would not suppress any one for saying what they feel or would plan to do
in the event of a PC in tow. I also encourage any jumper, with 1 jump or
10,000+ jumps, to give their opinions. Their opinions may not be the ideal
but at least they can get them out in the open and possibly rethink their
plan and maybe just maybe improve it and be better for it.
Again my heartfelt best wishes and condolences to those that were close to
Denise.
Blue skies forever;
Bill S.
ha...@my-dejanews.com
About £80 in the UK for a Time Out.
Belle
> What's the going rate for an audible altimeter nowadays ?
> ;-)
> *********************************************
> Tandem JM/I DZO; "When I get my Z licence
> I probably don't need a parachute anymore..."
>
sky...@skydivecloverdale.com
that have skydived for less than a year and 100 jump wonders are experts in
the sport and truly know more than instructors with thousands of skydives .
If you dont believe me just ask any student <But please dont interupt them
while they explain to there new best skydiving friend the facts of skydiving.
>
> I have personally seen people go in with a pilot chute in tow by cutting
> away. As far as I understand it, the purpose of the free-bag design is to get
> past something like a pilot chute in tow. Why would you cut away and add two
> more things (risers) to the equation. This should not be a point of
> discussion for people with 75 jumps. Instead of confusing these people, tell
> them to call USPA for their recommendation or to follow the advice of their
> jumpmasters. We don't need these people out there trying to figure out whose
> advice matters during a high speed mal. As for Gretchen - think about what
> happened and how you handled it. Bottom line - your training was to pull the
> reserve, not cutaway -- it worked, you lived, you landed fine. Why
would you
> possibly want to change your reaction next time???
>
> Additionally, having come from Denise's funeral, I can only say that the
> people speculating on what happened are doing just that, speculating. I
> would suggest that people refrain from doing so on the newsgroup until they
> know the facts, which they do not. We are all concerned when one of friends
> goes in, however, this nonsense on the thewsgroup is totally unproductive and
> perhaps even counterproductive. It makes much more sense to wait for the
> official (be it USPA or FAA) analysis and then to hear recommendations.
>
> I would suggest, in the meantime, that we continue to follow Ray Ferrell's
> advice and not that of someone with 75 jumps who has never experienced a
> malfunction, never mind a high-speed malfunction.
>
> Elaine
> D-7863
>
Wild Bill
I disagree. This subject is not about Denise anymore.
does it matter if the suppositions about Denise's mal are true or not? It
has created a discussion about safty and procedures that is good for anyone
to read and think about. And just because someone only has 1 jump or NO
jumps doesnt mean what he says on the newgroup is not valid. Take
everything you read on here with a grain of salt. If you are using the NG
as your only source of information .. you are stupid. But take what you
read here... think about it .. really think about and go through a mythical
skydive with your eyes closed and go through the different scenarios and the
motions ... then go to your local SandTA and discuss it with him
intelligently with the arguments you have heard here.
Just remember.. you in the end are responsible for your own safty and
actions. You do it wrong and you die.. You do it right and sometimes you
still die..... go figure...
Wild Bill
Rhonda Lea wrote in message
<199806251303...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>>Additionally, having come from Denise's funeral, I can only say that the
>>people speculating on what happened are doing just that, speculating. I
>>would suggest that people refrain from doing so on the newsgroup until
they
>>know the facts, which they do not. We are all concerned when one of
friends
>>goes in, however, this nonsense on the thewsgroup is totally unproductive
and
>>perhaps even counterproductive. It makes much more sense to wait for the
>>official (be it USPA or FAA) analysis and then to hear recommendations.
>
moshe...@kla-tencor.com
"Debra Spiro Allen and Mark W. Allen" <mal...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I disagree. I do not believe that the presence of an AAD should factor into
> your decision tree at all. Consider it there to save your life should you
> be knocked unconscious or catastrophically fuck up.
>
You missed the point. If you have an AAD, you had damn well better factor it
into your decision tree. You may only think it's there if you are knocked
out, but that's not what the little silver box thinks. It thinks it's there
to fire the reserve at a preset altitude if your vertical descent rate
exceeds a preset limit. If you blithely fire your main while burning through
a grand, you just bought yourself a one-man CRW ride which could get ugly.
This is not something people should start to think about at 1100 feet; people
who use an AAD better plan this out and have it firmly planted in their
brains. Failure to factor this into your decision tree could be fatal.
Moshe
D-17822
My decision tree is made somewhat simpler by the absence of an AAD... and this
is exactly why I don't have one.
Mike Hung
Shiieeet-
thats a lot better track reckord than my 2 cutaways in 6 months and I
dont even do CRW anymore;-)!!!!!
Well...at least I had some exitement after the freefall....
:-)
Ann
jkl
When I posted my first response to this issue, stating that I was taught
as a student and as an instructor on how to teach students, the primary
concern was with keeping it simple, and understandable, for students and
novices. Today, if I were to have a hard pull or little to nothing out,
and was sure of what was or wasn't out there to interfere with my
reserve, I may be inclined to go straight for the reserve, as Ray is
suggesting. With experience, you may be able to quickly choose an
alternate procedure, but when you're teaching students, or discussing
this ever-burning issue with all the novices out there, it was drilled
into our heads as instructors to keep it simple: If you've already
pulled the main and have a problem, you pull ALL the handles, in the
proper order, regardless of the exact malfunction. Having two or three
scenarios for someone to evaluate sure does eat up precious time. These
folks asking these questions need a simple rule to follow, not a
complicated one. I HAVE had a student who dumped a reserve into a
trashed main. That student was fortunate to live through it, landing
hard under a 1/2-inflated reserve, and she also knew how close to death
she had just come for not pulling her cutaway handle, as taught in
class. USPA will debate this issue 'til the end of time. And each
school may teach it slightly differently. The fact still remains: When
the time comes, the time goes very quickly. You need a plan, and you
need to stick to that plan, and remember ALTITUDE, ALTITUDE, ALTITUDE.
j & f
moshe...@kla-tencor.com wrote:
>
> Patrick Wilson <patr...@stiletto.engr.sgi.com> wrote:
> >
>
> > We discussed this at the AFF cert course @ davis a few weeks ago. We all
> > agreed that you cutaway, anytime you have launched the pilot-chute, be
> > it ripcord, boc, leg, etc... Makes the decision tree quicker, and easier
> > to deal with.
>
> I guess Ray Ferrell wasn't around, or everyone would NOT have agreed. Ray has
> always been a big proponent of going straight to the silver handle in case of
> a PC in tow, and posted a strong defense of this position a few weeks ago. I
> personally have always felt that a single, well practiced procedure (pull
> both handles) would be quicker because you don't lose time thinking, but Ray
> was adamant that if people are trained to go straight to the reserve in case
> of a pilot chute in tow, and drill that into their heads from day one, that
> it will be the faster response. As he put it: you don't want to spend the
> rest of your life pulling the cutaway handle when you should have fired the
> reserve. I'm not saying this is right- I'm too old and stupid to retrain
> myself now- but Ray has a lot more to say about how things are down at Davis
> that I do, and for good reason.
>
> Moshe
> D-17822
>
Rita
Debra Spiro Allen and Mark W. Allen wrote:
> I knew a girl who rode a twisted belly band variety of a PC in tow all the
> way down to AAD range. Through no volition of her own she got an inflated
> reserve approximately forty feet off the deck. Her response was, and I
> quote, "I thought it was a good idea to just relax and let the AAD sort
> everything out".
Oh, dear. And I thought I had problems in this sport. :(
She still jumping?
Blue ones!
--rita
Cliff Heller
cr...@poxon.org.NOSPAM (Craig Poxon) writes:
> Hey, could this be a new thread, "What height to pull at?"
First, I think we should define what we mean by "pull".
Does pull mean "wave off and then pull" or does it mean have your hand on
your PC handle, or does it mean, be experiencing line stretch and rapid
deceleration, or does it mean being under a functioning main canopy, with
slider stowed and breaks released?
I have initiated my wave off at 3,000 and been subsequently accused of
"screaming through the hard deck" after opening into line twists. While I
consider this to be a fluke of perception it got me thinking about what is
actually meant by opening altitude.
Normally I begin my wave off and pull sequence at 3,500 or 3,000 and I am
typically in the saddle, slider stowed and brakes released by 2000-2500. I
have my dytter's third warning set to 2000 and two or three times, I have
heard the alarm as my main is inflating.
> With only 42 jumps, I'm still pulling at 3,500 feet. I remember
> thinking, "God, this looks low!" when I first pulled at that height,
> even though I had done a dozen static-line jumps from a similar or
> lower height. I still can't imagine pulling from very much lower;
> 3,000 sounds comfortable to me.
>
> Was it Wendy who said earlier that if you pull at 2.5 by the time you
> realise you have a problem, you are 12 seconds away from impact; I
> think I'd rather have a few extra seconds of safety time than
> free-fall time, even from 10,000.
12 seconds is plenty of time to recognize that you have a high speed mail
(3-5 seconds) and intiate a cutaway/reserve pull (another 3-5 seconds).
Just be quick about it.
--
/ \ Left Reverend Nigh Invulnerable fn...@panix.com
/<0>\ Church of the Subverted Paradigm
/ \ God Plays Dice!
/_______\ --> FIVE TONS OF FLAX <-- Death To All Fanatics!
Dutty...
Peter Liemberg wrote:
>
> On 24 Jun 1998 15:05:48 GMT, bvask...@aol.com (BVAskydive) wrote:
>
> >> An alti check shows 1,100 feet. We haven't broken off.
> >>
> >> Do I pull my handles in sequence - or just pump out a reserve?
> >
> >do you mean haven't broken off an RW dive by 1100 feet? If so, just turn
> >180degrees or at least enough away from your jump-mates and pull the silver
> >handle with your legs extended for a little bit of a track. Best chances in
> >that scenario, I would think...
> ---------------------
> Better yet, let your friends know where you all are in space & time by
> deploying yourself 'per silver handle' out of the formation... (most
> people wake up if you do that; if not - well there's not much point
> going in all together isnt there ?...)
>
> ;-)
> *********************************************
> Tandem JM/I DZO; "When I get my Z licence
> I probably don't need a parachute anymore..."
You looking to buy or to sell? I have a used regular dytter for sale
$65.
Remove the zz to e-mail
cya
Dutty
M.A. Lovinger
On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:31:39 GMT, air...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>I have personally seen people go in with a pilot chute in tow by cutting
>away. As far as I understand it, the purpose of the free-bag design is to get
>past something like a pilot chute in tow. Why would you cut away and add two
>more things (risers) to the equation. This should not be a point of
>discussion for people with 75 jumps. Instead of confusing these people, tell
>them to call USPA for their recommendation or to follow the advice of their
>jumpmasters. We don't need these people out there trying to figure out whose
>advice matters during a high speed mal. As for Gretchen - think about what
>happened and how you handled it. Bottom line - your training was to pull the
>reserve, not cutaway -- it worked, you lived, you landed fine. Why would you
>possibly want to change your reaction next time???
>Additionally, having come from Denise's funeral, I can only say that the
>people speculating on what happened are doing just that, speculating. I
>would suggest that people refrain from doing so on the newsgroup until they
>know the facts, which they do not. We are all concerned when one of friends
>goes in, however, this nonsense on the thewsgroup is totally unproductive and
>perhaps even counterproductive. It makes much more sense to wait for the
>official (be it USPA or FAA) analysis and then to hear recommendations.
>
>I would suggest, in the meantime, that we continue to follow Ray Ferrell's
>advice and not that of someone with 75 jumps who has never experienced a
>malfunction, never mind a high-speed malfunction.
First, let me state that I'm sorry about replying to this message with
only a measly 1,300 jumps.
I did not post my original post on speculation. I did not say that it
was a pilot chute in tow. From what I was told, by a U.S.P.A.
National Board Member, it was a BAG LOCK. The rigger that inspected
the rig said that the bridle was wrapped around the d-bag. That does
NOT indicate a P.C.I.T. I'm sorry if you think that facts only come
from the mouths of persons involved in the investigation, and not
passed on directly to a board member who passed it on to me. That's
factual enough for me. I am sure not going to fly to N.J. to
interview the rigger myself. Until I hear otherwise, I am going to
classify this as a screwup. You reserve does not hang up on a cut
away bag lock. In any high risk activity you have high risk. This
allows for a VERY small margin of error in a lot of cases. This
fatality was a small error that turned out to be the last.
As far as this chit-chat being "unproductive and perhaps even
counterproductive", I think that you are wrong. This newsgroup is for
the dissemination of information, not grieving over lost friends. If
one is so full of grief, don't log onto this NG as you KNOW what you
are going to see. It happens after EVERY fatality. There's always
someone that goes into the "don't make assumptions about the deceased"
argument. That's not how it works here, according to the 50+
fatalities that I've learned about over the years on this NG.
The only reason that I posted what I did was to get some opinions on
the catapult pilot chute that was wrapped on the main. That's it. It
is a tragedy that another fellow skydiver went in, but, hey, we aren't
playing tiddely winks here, we are jumping out of airplanes with a
parachute strapped to our backs. We all know the risks. This is not
the last fatality we are ever going to see or hear about. If you are
looking for consolation, call or visit your friends, don't log onto
rec.skydiving.
Regards,
M.A.Lovinger
Phillip MacLean
Jump 37, solo 30 sec delay. Sleeved 28 TU with chest mount reserve (NO PC).
Sleeve comes off but TU is big tangled piece of junk. So, do the following
sequence for reserve (as was trained): Left hand on front flaps to hold
together. Pull handle with right hand. Chuck handle. Reach right hand under
right flap and behind folded canopy. Pick up canopy with right hand behind
and left hand in front, lift towards right shoulder and HEAVE as far as
possible to front. It got about 6 inches away and blasted up there.
Reserve turned out to be twill, was supposed to have been retired and used
for rigger course practice (still got me down o.k.). If that story don't
date me, nothing will.
Crusty.
Dan Bergmen <da...@sr.hp.com> wrote in article
<6mrnpo$d...@canyon.sr.hp.com>...
> Crew Dog (cowboys...@hotmail.com) wrote:
>
> <snip>
Nick Brice
Cliff Heller wrote:
>
> 12 seconds is plenty of time to recognize that you have a high speed mail
> (3-5 seconds) and intiate a cutaway/reserve pull (another 3-5 >seconds).
you're dead?
--
When once you have tasted flight you will always walk the earth
with your eyes turned skyward; for there you have been
and there you will always be.
Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519
RHallifax
>From: "Phillip MacLean"
>Jump 37, solo 30 sec delay. Sleeved 28 TU with chest mount reserve (NO PC).
>Sleeve comes off but TU is big tangled piece of junk. So, do the following
>sequence for reserve (as was trained): Left hand on front flaps [snip ....
snip ]
Interesting, Phil. But ya gotta have 76 jumps before your reserve ride, or it
don't count in this thread from what I read (or is that 76 reserve rides?).
Seriously, it seems to me that there are few "experienced" cut away folks
around, as the average is one reserve ride per 700 jumps. So how is the
opinion of a jumper with 75 jumps less important than one with 1200 jumps if
they've both had one reserve ride? ...
Bob
Bert Navarrete
Ok,
Let's just all wait until the official report is released before speculating
on what happened. I happen to know a significant amount of info, but would rather
just hear the official report before drawing any conclusions. Regardless if you
are a rigger, student, or experienced jumper, the fact is that you don't know
ANYTHING until the official report is released and therefore can't draw any
conclusions. Didn't we all learn that in school? I believe the scientific method
calls for the facts to be proven or not before the hypothesis can be confirmed or
proven false. Of course some people will say that the cause was due to this or
that for their own liability's sake, but why can't we wait until the facts are
presented before us to draw our conclusions? Food for thought.
-SPirt
SStoer4649 wrote:
> mlov...@bellsouth.net (M.A. Lovinger) wrote:
> <snip>
> The catapult was a secondary cause of the incident. Mick Cottle, according to
> Ed Cummings, said "the cause was firing a reserve into the main." I
> would tend to agree with them.
> <snip>
> My figuring says that first off, don't be stupid and not chop before
> pulling the reserve.
> <snip>
> I'm sure that many other people have differing opinions, and I would like to
> hear them.
>
> I'm just a newbie so correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the USPA reccomend
> going to reserve and not waste time cutting away with a pilot chute in tow?
>
> Steve
Mike Spurgeon
RHallifax wrote:
>
> Seriously, it seems to me that there are few "experienced" cut away folks
> around, as the average is one reserve ride per 700 jumps. So how is the
> opinion of a jumper with 75 jumps less important than one with 1200 jumps if
> they've both had one reserve ride?
If you have to ask this question, you better sit on the ground
till you figure it out.
I've only got 16 reserve rides, so I'm not even an 'A' reserve
jumper, but I have *seen* hundreds, and *talked* to more
individuals than that about their *thousands*.
Plus I've been teaching it for 22 years.
I could have *zero* rides personally, but know one hell of a lot
more than the 50-jump wonder that just got arrogant about *his*
knowledge in email and seems to think he knows more on the same
subject/thread.
Blue ones,
Mike Spurgeon
AL DELLA PENNA JR
Hey Wendy , You CReW dog get alot more wraps than (normal) or should i say
average skydivers , because of this , is your rig different than a typical
(non-CRew)rig? just wondering , still learning AL (REVID)
Wendy Faulkner wrote:
> In article <199806252325...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> RHallifax <rhal...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >Seriously, it seems to me that there are few "experienced" cut away folks
> >around, as the average is one reserve ride per 700 jumps. So how is the
> >opinion of a jumper with 75 jumps less important than one with 1200 jumps if
> >they've both had one reserve ride? ...
> >
> Hee hee. I guess I can be called experienced at something huh? 6
> cutaways/ 1400 jumps (ellipticals are fun, CRW is even better :)
> Hell. I even have opinions on various brands of reserves. I've jumped
> 3 different types so far!
>
> Wen
>
> --
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> =- Wendy Faulkner =- "He's dead Jim, You get his tricorder
> =- faul...@eco.utexas.edu =- and I'll get his wallet."
> =- D-17441 NCB#3 =-
ardicy
So, based on all I have read so far about this particular incident (and
still being a total novice) I think it is BEST FOR ME to continue to
wave off and start to open at 4000 or higher for lots of jumps .....
Do I trust my reactions to a mal ? YES I do. Thats not my concern. I
like being under canopy almost as much as free fall. I like altitude.
Question is, is it OK for a novice to be pulling that high - of course
telling everyone on the load that this is what I intend to do and
exiting last or close to it ...
Rick
Debra Spiro Allen and Mark W. Allen
No, thank God. That incident I think tipped the scales for her. As I've
always said, this sport is most definitely not for everyone.
Take care,
Mark
Rita wrote in message <3592A4...@philly.infi.net>...
Debra Spiro Allen and Mark W. Allen
believe me, if I was blithely screaming through a grand, I'd fire my
reserve, AAD or no AAD. BTW, I never miss a point.
Mark
moshe...@kla-tencor.com wrote in message
<6mu0in$k7t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> "Debra Spiro Allen and Mark W. Allen" <mal...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>I disagree.
>You missed the point. If you have an AAD, you had damn well better factor
it
>into your decision tree.
>Moshe
Wendy Faulkner
Ben Daniels
"Phillip MacLean" <mac...@earthlink.net>
>Jump 37, solo 30 sec delay. Sleeved 28 TU with chest mount reserve (NO PC).
>Sleeve comes off but TU is big tangled piece of junk. So, do the following
>sequence for reserve (as was trained): Left hand on front flaps to hold
>together. Pull handle with right hand. Chuck handle. Reach right hand under
>right flap and behind folded canopy. Pick up canopy with right hand behind
>and left hand in front, lift towards right shoulder and HEAVE as far as
>possible to front. It got about 6 inches away and blasted up there.
>Reserve turned out to be twill, was supposed to have been retired and used
>for rigger course practice (still got me down o.k.). If that story don't
>date me, nothing will.
>Crusty.
Down and out and into the spin.
I think that somewhere down deep I haven't felt safe since
piggybacks came out.
You have to *cutaway* which seems like a radical and scary
thing to do.
And then the reserve is back there on the back where you
can't get your hands on it.
I wonder what it would be like to jump a B4 and a 7TU now.
Seemed pretty high tech at the time.
Skratch
kr...@philly.infi.net
In article <359297...@boeing.com>,
"Dutty..." <Gary.D...@boeing.com> wrote:
>
> Peter Liemberg wrote:
> > What's the going rate for an audible altimeter nowadays ?
> You looking to buy or to sell? I have a used regular dytter for sale
> $65.
Okay, here's another question for the group to ponder:
Audible altimeters: Are they to be depended on?
I've heard two schools of thought on this, varying opinions, both individuals
being highly qualified to render those opinions.
As a bit of background, I am a novice ... off student status, but not yet
licensed. So, obviously, I hadn't purchased much at the time I was seeking
this advice.
One person at one dz was very much in favor of audibles. In fact, he advised
me to buy myself an audible just as soon as I could afford one. This
individual has mega jumps, is a rated instructor, jumps competitively, an
extremely well respected individual. He told me that there was no reason not
to depend on audibles, almost exclusively. In fact, he stated that on some
of his specialized jumps, he didn't even wear a visual altimeter ... not that
he was advising me to do that ... he just happened to mention it in passing.
When I brought up a concern about "dead battery syndrome," he told me that
the newer models gave you plenty of warning when the battery was getting low
... and only a fool would get caught short by a dead battery. I think his
line of reasoning was ... what's the difference? A visual altimeter can fail
just as an audible one can. Makes sense, in a way.
At another dz I get a totally different line of thinking. Again, I ask
whether I should bother spending the money for an audible. "Great backup
device ... handy to have ... look upon it the same way you would an AAD.
It's always good to have ... but never, ever depend upon it." The individual
advising me here has many, many years of experience in the sport, former Army
Airborne, low "D" license number, rated instructor, S&TA, etc.
Now who does the floundering novice listen to?
I guess the best way to gauge altitude would probably be with the eyes the
good lord gave you. Would seem to me that the skydiver with a survival
attitude would depend on nothing ... not an audible, nor a visual. Of
course, the prudent skydiver would wear one ... or even both, but would try
to train their eyes as early as possible to detect altitude differences and
be able to develop almost a second sense as to where they were in time and
space at any given point in time. But developing that skill would take time
... and lots of jumps. What do you do in the meantime?
I guess altimeters are like AADs. You lay out the bucks for them ...
sometimes substantial bucks ... and you just hope you never need to depend on
them?
Any thoughts?
Blue ones!
--rita
kr...@philly.infi.net
In article <Ev42t...@twisto.im.hou.compaq.com>,
"Wild Bill" <William...@compaq.com> wrote:
>
> I disagree. This subject is not about Denise anymore.
> does it matter if the suppositions about Denise's mal are true or not? It
> has created a discussion about safty and procedures that is good for anyone
> Just remember.. you in the end are responsible for your own safty and
> actions. You do it wrong and you die.. You do it right and sometimes you
> still die..... go figure...
If I died in this sport, or in pretty much any other "high risk" endeavor, I
can't think of a more lasting tribute to my memory than to have the means of
my death generate productive discussion and perhaps provide insight to others
which may prevent the same thing from happening to them.
You're right, these discussions under this thread have not been about Denise.
Perhaps we should just change the thread name, but they have honored her
memory and made her death at least have some small positive side. These
discussions have gotten people thinking ... and talking ... people who maybe
haven't thought about, nor even practiced, their emergency procedures in
quite some time.
Being pretty new in the sport, I think about emergency procedures on every
jump ... to the point of analness ... practicing handle touches on the
ground, in the plane, in my sleep, while I'm taking a shit ... you name it.
:)
But even at my low level of experience, I can see that the one thing that
kills in this sport is complacency. If my death serves to make even one
person less complacent, then I would feel that death served at least some
worthwhile purpose. I would feel that my memory had been honored. If one
person takes a moment to think ... "what would I do if this particular thing
happened, or if I were confronted with that situation?" my life will have
left a lasting mark on the world.
So, blue skies, Denise, and thank you. While I didn't know you, and didn't
have the pleasure of sharing the blue skies with you, I will miss you and
always remember you ... not just for the person you were, but for the person
you are helping me to become.
Peter Liemberg
On 25 Jun 1998 23:25:13 GMT, rhal...@aol.com (RHallifax) wrote:
>Seriously, it seems to me that there are few "experienced" cut away folks
>around, as the average is one reserve ride per 700 jumps. So how is the
>opinion of a jumper with 75 jumps less important than one with 1200 jumps if
>they've both had one reserve ride? ...
--------------------------
Wow, that means I REALLY knew it all back in 1983 when I landed a
reserve for the 5th time in 250 jumps.
In a short period I learned about:
1 Frunchy gear ('essayez cette parachute !') & ripcord location.
2 It doesnt spin if you release both brakes
3 Neccesity of TWO tapewells connected on deployment.
4 Try this rig (Well, it isn't Frunchy, so...)
5 We aRe Way too low !
6. One per 50 - maybe clean up my act...
Regrettably, I gained very little experience in the next 1750 jumps
and 13 years of instruction with only 3 reserves...
But my knowledge may have taken a quantum leap back in 1995 when
within an 8 day period I first chopped one tandem and then the
other...
So folks - since my last one is almost three years ago, don't listen
to my outdated opinions about reserve rides. Then again, if I speak
about how to avoid 'em, it looks like I'm beginning to figure that
out...
Vince Ingram
Hi Craig,
I can't speak for anyone else but our entire dz at Mercer habitually
break at 4000 with deployment at 3000. It is the Rule of Thumb and
although NZPF rules state a minimum of 2000ft questions would be asked
of jumpers pulling at this altitude. Not that we are safety nazis -
just like to maintain the ol' "dive to plan" scenario and see if ppl
are 'aware' of the reasons that sucked them comparatively low. And
then put the situation into a hypothetical standard deploy at 2 or
2.5k.
We also have a few jumpers regularly dump out high (10k) just to fang
around each other and the odd vapour puff, and they are not crwdogs
(yet).
BluSkys
Vince
cr...@poxon.org.NOSPAM (Craig Poxon) wrote:
>Now two people in this thread have said they pull at 3. Is this common
>or is everyone pulling at 2.5? Anyone out there with 'thousands' of
>jumps pulling 'high' (CReW dogs need not apply)? Don't you get bored
>with only being able to say goodbye to the pilots and tandems all the
>time? ;-)
ha...@my-dejanews.com
This is my experience to date: RW including a student doing RW - a good
reminder to break off. When you are doing things for the first time, it is
easy to forget about beyond the 'I have to do side ins, gosh they look
difficult...' I use it still for break off and my visual for pull.
Freefly - necessary - you can't always see your visual altimeter. I have had
no problems with sit or stand up, but two friends had problems of strange
beepings when doing head down (not done yet). It is turning into a fashion to
wear two now. I use it for break off and again use visual for pull.
In both though, I have had the occasion of not hearing the audible, possibly
as I was concentrating on what I was doing, so I work with both visual and
audible. I might get another time out, so I can hear them better.
<He told me that there was no reason not
> to depend on audibles, almost exclusively. A visual altimeter can fail
> just as an audible one can. Makes sense, in a way.
It is no difficuly to wear both, and I do.
> At another dz I get a totally different line of thinking. "Great backup
but never, ever depend upon it."
> Now who does the floundering novice listen to?
There is always going to be differences of view. Listen to both arguments and
decide yourself. For the money, you may as well buy what you want.
> I guess the best way to gauge altitude would probably be with the eyes the
> good lord gave you.
Looking is always good, but ground rush can be rather exciting. Useful anyway.
> I guess altimeters are like AADs. You lay out the bucks for them ...
> sometimes substantial bucks ... and you just hope you never need to depend on
> them?
I depend on mine as well as my visual. When are start head down, I will
probably depend on the audible one (or two) more.
Just my own thoughts,
Blue skies,
Belle
Peter Liemberg
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:07:06 GMT, kr...@philly.infi.net wrote:
>Audible altimeters: Are they to be depended on?
>
>I've heard two schools of thought on this, varying opinions, both individuals
>being highly qualified to render those opinions.
<snipped the rest of Rita's puritan vs liberal story>
I never understood the puritans.
I do however, remember a jump years ago with a german that had over a
1000 jumps and convinced me that he didn't need anything in the form
of 'alti gadgets'- Jonathan Livingston Seagulls nephew: " the perfect
speed is being there" Wow - was I impressed !
He looked quite surprised when I pulled out of our 2way his girlfriend
was still chasing below 2500ft - that I dared to do that with less
than 300 jumps. (he was supposed to keep track of my chestmount alti,
but you know how it goes when there's pretty lookin' females around)
From that time on I dont see whats wrong with:
1. More food on the table than I'll probably eat
2. More money in my pocket than I'll probably spend
3. More 'altigadgets' than I need to survive.
Do I choke without food, money or 'altigadgets'? Nah..., but as you
get older, you want to live more convenient...
;-)
Now, for a more technical note: Besides dead batteries (but you get a
warning before that) there is one problem with audibles and that is
temporary deafness due to pressure differences. (Hence the 'never
depend on them' school)
Look at it this way: The fact that you could sleep through your
alarmclock and you regularly wake up before it rings doesn't mean that
a rooster is a superior mean to get you out of bed in time.
RHallifax
>I guess altimeters are like AADs. You lay out the bucks for them ...
>sometimes substantial bucks ... and you just hope you never need to depend on
>them?
>
>
>Blue ones!
>
>--rita
Well, yes, Rita. I do have thoughts on this subject.
Before I do, thought, you need to know my experince level. I don't have 10,000
jumps. I don't have a D license. I don't have a Double Falcon award. What I
do have are fresh eyes. Like yourself, I see this sport with the eyes of
someone who has limited experience. That's something that the the 10,000 jump
croud cannot any longer do....Bless their pea pickin' little hearts :).
Altitude awareness is a major problem. Even when you think you know how much
time or can read the ground. Why? Because, while you're developing skills,
every second, or forth, or maybe tenth jump is an "extraordinary skydive." By
extraordinary skydive I mean a jump in which you are pushing the limits of your
personal skill level. When this happens, it is too easy to allow your focus to
go exclusively to the skill you're working on.
I've been working on RW. I'll be honest: the
only time I look at the ground is at break off. So looking at the ground is of
limited value here, for me. And even if I did, my focus would be on the
mechanics of the formation, not the judgment of altitude by looking at the
ground. The time of free fall is very important to me, and almost always
tells me where I am in the sky. *But,* that's not 100% of the time, as in
some extraordinary skydives, I lose track of time.
I find I'm continually having to work at looking at my altimeter after every
point... and, I don't know why, but I even fail to do that on these
"extraordinary skydives." I had a jump a couple weeks ago in which I told Jim
I'd compeletly lost altitude awareness. He said, "yes, I know, I saw that."
... Take that as a measure of his total awareness up there and mine....
I just bought an audible, and haven't used it yet. The thing scares me,
because I don't want to depend on it. Why? Don't I depend on a visual? Ahhh,
but this is the problem: the visual doesn't give you a blank screen until
break off at which time it waves a red flag in your face. If that were the
case, it would scare me also, because I would depend on that red flag.
It's not that the visual altimeter is a "mechanical device" that we shouldn't
depend on. If that were true skydiving wouldn't exist. But it is a device that
acts differently than our other devices. And it is because of the way this
particular device works that it can cause a fatal dependency. .
What I plan to do with the audible is set it below my break off altitude, and
never want to hear the darn thing until I'm in a track.... And if I'm not
happy, I just won't wear it.
And while I'm at it, I've quickly learned what it is to stay in for a couple
extra points even when you know you shouldn't. Sometimes that aggressiveness
comes out. When I'm jumping with certain people, this isn't a problem, because
they're disciplined. Others, have little discipline up there. The lesson is
to create your own discipline, and don't go changing just becuase the others on
your dive all have 2,000 jumps. I found that an AFFI with 2000 jumps is
different from the the weekend jumper with 2000 jumps. And now that you're off
student status, you'll be jumping with them too....
Blue skies,
Bob
RHallifax
Mike wrote:
<<If you have to ask this question, you better sit on the ground
till you figure it out.>>
Yes, sir !! .... But I don't learn 'less I ask questions...
How do you learn?
Bob
Wendy Faulkner
In article <3592EEF4...@blowfish.inst.bnl.gov>,
AL DELLA PENNA JR <a...@blowfish.inst.bnl.gov> wrote:
>Hey Wendy , You CReW dog get alot more wraps than (normal) or should i say
>average skydivers , because of this , is your rig different than a typical
>(non-CRew)rig? just wondering , still learning AL (REVID)
Yeah. A rig built for CRW does tend to have some modifications for CRW.
The biggest one is protecting your reserve pins. I've got a Racer, so
they're already protected. People who jump Javelins for CRW generally
have a little flap sewn onto their main flap which covers up the reserve
pins. The point being that this extra flap will make lines slide past,
instead of catching and pulling or bending the reserve pins. Other rigs
like Talons, are designed ok for this aspect in general.
CRW rigs tend to have thick, padded, comfortable leg straps. We spend a
lot of time in them. Some CRW jumpers use pillows for their reserve
handles, to minimize chances of snagging. My Racer has a smaller
reserve handle than normal - it looks more like a tandem reserve handle.
I got this basically so that I could still have a metal handle where I
could get a good grip on it, but its small enough its a lot less likely
to get pulled accidently in a wrap.
I've also got large riser covers as CRW dogs tend to have all sorts of
extra stuff on their risers. Extra handles, blocks, front-riser
assists, and huge toggles. They're great!
So yeah. I got my last Racer specially built for CRW, and I had a lot
of mods made from a standard freefall one. Jumpshack worked with me and
made it exactly like I wanted. And I love it! Its more comfortable
than an easy chair... :)
Wendy Faulkner
In article <6mvobq$7kb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <kr...@philly.infi.net> wrote:
>In article <359297...@boeing.com>,
>line of reasoning was ... what's the difference? A visual altimeter can fail
>just as an audible one can. Makes sense, in a way.
>
The problem is though - if you're depending on an audible altimeter and
it doesn't work, then you're still in freefall at 3 grand not knowing
its not working. If a visual altimeter fails, either a. You notice you
have no readout on your digital altimeter or b. Your needle isn't
moving on your analog one. Either way you can tell. How you can tell
on the way down that the beep didn't go off at 3500?
I've jumped with both audibles and regular altimeters, and have several
hundred jumps without either. Depended on my eyes, and my other
friend's altimeters.
In and of themselves, audibles are a good thing to have. But if you're
depending on that beep at 3500 and one day it doesn't happen, how long
will it take you to notice that it should have gone off? 5 seconds?
10?
moshe...@kla-tencor.com
rhal...@aol.com (RHallifax) wrote:
> Seriously, it seems to me that there are few "experienced" cut away folks
> around, as the average is one reserve ride per 700 jumps. So how is the
> opinion of a jumper with 75 jumps less important than one with 1200 jumps if
> they've both had one reserve ride? ...
>
Where the heck did you get that number?? I've always figured it was more like
1 in 300 for freefallers, a "bit" higher for CRW. (I average 1 in 297 for RW,
1 in 100 for CRW). Gary Guthrie did an informal survey on the newsgroup about
2 years ago, and I think he came up with a similar number.(For the geeks out
there, 1 in 300 is 99.7%, which is a perfect 3 sigma process).
Moshe
D-17822
Lynn Beckhorn
> > : Anyone with stories about shot and a half capewells (sp) and chest
> reservers
>
Jump #3, left step and assumed my standard hard fetal position. Opened 28' TU
with major lines over. It seemed slow but was faster than it looked. While I
studied it my JM and good friend was coming unglued. "Open Cape Wells, insert
thumbs, reverse arch (that part came natural) stare at reserve handle, chop and
go for handle. HANDLE NOT THERE, cloth coming out...........WHAM, coooool,
that Stevens thing (RSL) really worked fast. OH SHIT-Will this four
line thing really only release 4???????
Better study it. Swinging badly. Ground coming. Better DO IT! Coooool, only
4.
SHIT! TURN INTO WIND,,,PLF, PLF, PLF.........OH WOW"
Lynn,,,,,,,1972, YOLO
Flyincamra
kr...@philly.infi.net... Rita asked:
>Audible altimeters: Are they to be depended on?
(snip)
>I guess altimeters are like AADs. You lay out the bucks for them
>sometimes substantial bucks ... and you just hope you never need to depend on
>them?
Rita,
I have two dytters in my camera helmet, one audible and the other an audible
and visual (blinking light), that was a b-day gift.
One is set for 3500, the other for 3000.
I don't depend on either, even tho while flying camera I can't easily check my
wrist mount alti.
Filming RW I spend most of my dive looking down and have awareness of the look
of the ground, but that isn't where my concentration is.
Sometimes when filming groups I don't know well, I get nervous and sneak a peek
at my alti, but most times I know where I am by the look of the ground and by
the changing air pressure. I always know when I'm getting close to break off
altitude, and if I have any doubts I'll check my altimeter.
So I guess what I depend on is everything combined.... the visual of the
ground, the dytters, my altimeter, the air pressure and the little voice inside
that tells me it's time to go.
And I never let a group take me low... if both dytters are beeping or flashing,
I'm gone, and the rest of the skydive won't be on the video.
Jan
Paul Koning
Crew Dog wrote:
>
> Was: Re: Fatality at Crosskeys, or Reflexgate
> Start a new thread?
>
> kr...@philly.infi.net errantly wrote for the whole world to see:
> 'Audible altimeters: Are they to be depended on?
> 'I've heard two schools of thought on this, varying opinions, both individuals
> 'being highly qualified to render those opinions.
> 'me to buy myself an audible just as soon as I could afford one. This
> 'individual has mega jumps, is a rated instructor, jumps competitively, an
> 'to depend on audibles, almost exclusively. In fact, he stated that on some
> 'of his specialized jumps, he didn't even wear a visual altimeter
>
Why not? The FAA doesn't care. FAR 105 does not require altimeters.
In fact, the word "altimeter" doesn't occur in FAR 105.
paul
--
!-----------------------------------------------------------------------
! Paul Koning, NI1D, D-20853
! Xedia Corporation, 119 Russell Street, Littleton, MA 01460, USA
! phone: +1 978 952 6000 ext 115, fax: +1 978 952 6090
! email: pko...@xedia.com
! Pgp: 27 81 A9 73 A6 0B B3 BE 18 A3 BF DD 1A 59 51 75
!-----------------------------------------------------------------------
! "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over
! any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent
! harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not
! a sufficient warrant." -- John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty" 1859
RHallifax
>> around, as the average is one reserve ride per 700 jumps.
1 in 300 for freefallers>>>
Not sure exactly where I picked it up... I found it a couple places on the
internet, I believe... Could surely be bogus, I admit.
Blue Skies,
Bob
rtho...@my-dejanews.com
> One person at one dz was very much in favor of audibles. In fact, he advised
> me to buy myself an audible just as soon as I could afford one. This
> individual has mega jumps, is a rated instructor, jumps competitively, an
> extremely well respected individual. He told me that there was no reason not
> to depend on audibles, almost exclusively. In fact, he stated that on some
> of his specialized jumps, he didn't even wear a visual altimeter ... not that
> he was advising me to do that ... he just happened to mention it in passing.
> When I brought up a concern about "dead battery syndrome," he told me that
> the newer models gave you plenty of warning when the battery was getting low
> ... and only a fool would get caught short by a dead battery. I think his
> line of reasoning was ... what's the difference? A visual altimeter can fail
> just as an audible one can. Makes sense, in a way.
>
> At another dz I get a totally different line of thinking. Again, I ask
> whether I should bother spending the money for an audible. "Great backup
> device ... handy to have ... look upon it the same way you would an AAD.
> It's always good to have ... but never, ever depend upon it." The individual
> advising me here has many, many years of experience in the sport, former Army
> Airborne, low "D" license number, rated instructor, S&TA, etc.
>
> Now who does the floundering novice listen to?
>
> I guess the best way to gauge altitude would probably be with the eyes the
> good lord gave you. Would seem to me that the skydiver with a survival
> attitude would depend on nothing ... not an audible, nor a visual. Of
> course, the prudent skydiver would wear one ... or even both, but would try
> to train their eyes as early as possible to detect altitude differences and
> be able to develop almost a second sense as to where they were in time and
> space at any given point in time. But developing that skill would take time
> ... and lots of jumps. What do you do in the meantime?
>
> I guess altimeters are like AADs. You lay out the bucks for them ...
> sometimes substantial bucks ... and you just hope you never need to depend on
> them?
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Blue ones!
>
> --rita
A long time ago, back when I was a student, the jumpmasters used to make the
students look out at the ground at 1000' and 2000'. The pilot would "turn
around a point" so we could get a good look out the door (no inflight door on
a 182). The idea was to imprint what 1000' and 2000' looked like. Then your
eyes could function as a more reliable altitude indicator. They also told us
to do the same thing under canopy. To this day, especially when jumping at a
new DZ, I still do it.
An altimeter and an audible are both good. Get the altimeter first, the
audible second. Don't depend on either. Equipment fails.
Side note - I haven't been real pleased with the trend in the last several
years towards wrist mount altimeters. It used to be that you never looked at
your own altimeter during a skydive. You always looked at the chest mount
across from you. Nowadays that isn't possible most of the time. Any comments
from anyone?
crwmike
Flyincamra wrote:
> Rita,
>
> I have two dytters in my camera helmet, one audible and the other an audible
> and visual (blinking light), that was a b-day gift.
> One is set for 3500, the other for 3000.
> I don't depend on either, even tho while flying camera I can't easily check my
> wrist mount alti.
Really????????
> And I never let a group take me low... if both dytters are beeping or flashing,
> I'm gone,
Hmmmmm.
One of the most dangerous practices I see in skydiving today is the use
of audible alerts set for breakoff altitude ("but I don't depend on
it"). You DO depend on it!!!! If you are going to use one, set it
BELOW your intended breakoff altitude and use hearing the alert as a
backup and a wakeup call that some serious lack of awareness has just
taken place.
Rita, the "well respected" experienced jumper who recommended depending
on an audible is....not.
BSBD,
Michael
D-6139