GameRoom Mag/permission request (semi-long)
timf
From: Tim Ferrante, GameRoom Magazine
Our ISP doesn't carry all newsgroup postings so I do miss a large
percentage of what is aired here. I can't visit every day so that
exacerbates things.
During a conversation with Steve Young, he mentioned there was a flurry
of postings regarding Pete Schmitz's playfield cleaning article that
appears in our October issue. The article is a third (and concluding)
installment.
I wasn't aware of the RGP responses and have just finished reading them
via dejanews (thank heavens for that service!). Needless to say, I was
more than passive in my interest! As the person soley responsible for
every syllable that will see ink in GameRoom, any feedback whatsoever is
treasured reading.
My request of everyone who posted regarding the October article is thus:
may I have your collective permissions to reprint your responses in an
upcoming issue of GameRoom? It is vital that the hobby readership hear
all sides of such an important topic and I can think of no better voices
than those that reside here. I want to include everything (even if it
was negative about the magazine in general) and ask that all folks who
posted commentary grant us permission. (Please note that we cannot
publish any comments that may be libelous).
Lastly, if you did not weigh in on the playfield cleaning topic, and
_read_ the article by Pete Schmitz, I would like to invite your
opinions, too. One of the disclaimers throughout his three-part piece
was that you may or may not agree with his techniques, but it was how he
did things. The choice was left strictly up to the reader on whether to
adopt any, all, or none of his suggestions. It's quite obvious that many
folks have differing methods and I would very much like to bring those
to the GameRoom readership!
I hope to hear from those involved and ask that you attach your original
posting to me to insure that it is _your words_ that get proper
attribution in print. If you can't attach it, feel free to re-create
your thoughts. All who grant permission, but do not receive GameRoom,
and would like to see their comments in print, please include your snail
mail address and I'll be happy to send you a copy when the issue comes
out.
Sincere thanks and I appreciate everyone's indulgence,
Tim Ferrante
GameRoom Magazine
http://www.gameroommagazine.com
c...@provide.net
use dejanew's "view thread" to get ALL the contents
of a thread. i certainly don't save the messages i post;
that's why dejanews is there.
it would be GREAT if you could post the original pete article
on RGP too. you would get greater response and more opinions.
my personal opinion is this guy has something to sell.
as a hobbiest, i am VERY cautious of these people. he basically
tells me how to scratch my playfield with steelwool, then use
HIS product (snakeoil) to remove the scratches. it just sound
suspicious to me. but then again i NEVER buy "recommended"
stocks from stock brokers either...
and besides, steel wool and pinball don't go together. do you
wash your car with 0000 steel wool? of course not! then why
clean your playfield with it! playfields and cars are basically
painted with the same materials (until about the mid-1980's).
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Duncan Brown
> and besides, steel wool and pinball don't go together. do you
> wash your car with 0000 steel wool? of course not! then why
> clean your playfield with it! playfields and cars are basically
> painted with the same materials (until about the mid-1980's).
I also don't pummel my car with ball bearings all day long. (Which does
nothing to dispute your point, I just thought it was worth pointing out-
imagine if the collector car groups were filled with questions on how to
get rid of half-circle cracks in the paint due to pummeling with big
steel bearings!)
Duncan, whose car actually doesn't have much paint left, but doesn't
care because aluminum doesn't rust.
c...@provide.net
ah, but EVERYDAY when you drive by i throw an old rusty pinball
at your landrover. that's why it doesn't have any paint...
oh i forgot, if you have a Delorian, you DO wash your car with
0000 steel wool!
psch...@dbtech.net
>
> it's ok with me, BUT you have to print the ENTIRE thread.
> use dejanew's "view thread" to get ALL the contents
> of a thread. i certainly don't save the messages i post;
> that's why dejanews is there.
>
> it would be GREAT if you could post the original pete article
> on RGP too. you would get greater response and more opinions.
>
> my personal opinion is this guy has something to sell.
> as a hobbiest, i am VERY cautious of these people. he basically
> tells me how to scratch my playfield with steelwool, then use
> HIS product (snakeoil) to remove the scratches. it just sound
> suspicious to me. but then again i NEVER buy "recommended"
> stocks from stock brokers either...
>
> wash your car with 0000 steel wool? of course not! then why
> clean your playfield with it! playfields and cars are basically
> painted with the same materials (until about the mid-1980's).
>
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
I'd like to reply to this: I unfortunately haven't seen all these
postings that are referrred to but: I think that some of you just didn't
understand the point of the article. First, I do not have "something to
sell" per se- the main focus of the third part was how good those two
waxes work, granted, but I also told you how to get them for yourself. I
only offer them as a convenience for people who don't want to spend
hours on the phone or on the road tracking them down. The important
thing, which a lot of you missed, was to use a separate compound and
then a polish, not doing it in one step like with wildcat, which a lot
of people still do. I also pointed out that there are MUCH better
products to use than Novus or "polecat 125" and the like. The car
products are made to a much finer standard and will out perform anything
else. Don't forget, I have been collecting for a very long time and I
have been through hundreds of games, so I have had a chance to compare.
You don't have to buy the exact ones I use, as I said, it was just the
point of using several steps (like woodworkers do) and using better
stuff. Now for the steel wool- don't knock it if you haven't done it. I
was VERY pessimistic when someone showed it to me, and as I said it may
not be for everyone. You really can't get it across in text, it is
something you have to see for yourself. It doesn't leave big scratches
like you might think, if it is done correctly. As with anything, I am
sure there is a way to do it wrong and mess up a game, but I don't do it
that way. All you are doing is getting off the surface 3 or 4 percent
of the clear coat, where all the grunge has settled in. If you were
refinishing a chair, would you just put the new stain right on over the
old? of course not! That's why you do it. Now that I know how to do the
steel wool, I would NEVER do it any other way. I will put one of my
steel wool playfields up against any other technique or process you can
think of, any time or place..hehe. If it freaks you out, try it on a
spare playfield or don't do it at all; it's your choice. Unlike most
people, I don't think there is "only my way and it is the only right
way". As I said, I shared it for the benefit of people new to the hobby
and people who aren't satisfied with the results they have been getting
and want something more. Conversely I stand behind what I said because
in my experience it is the most effective way to do it. If you are
interested, I have sold several orders so far and everyone has really
loved it, whether they steel wooled or not. I guess the only way to find
out is to actually try some, then you can make a genuine and honest
opinion on it. Until then, I guess it makes an interesting thread for
people to post to...hehe. Remember this- we all want the same thing- we
want our games to look as nice as they possibly can in every way. As I
said, I knew the steel wool was a controversial topic, but I think it
is important to get ideas out there and I accomplished exactly what I
wanted to do- I got everyone talking about playfield cleaning and
discussing their techniques and now everyone can benefit from the
exchange of all the different ideas- isn't that great?
Al Garber
Before you panic, realize that 0000 steel wool is about as abrasive
as Comet. Unless you're applying about 1200 psi to the pad, it typically
cleans the surface without scratching and leaves it as if you had used
rubbing compound.
AL
David Gersic
In <7040g0$nsb$1...@earth.superlink.net>, timf <coi...@gameroommagazine.com> writes:
>To: All on RGP
>From: Tim Ferrante, GameRoom Magazine
>
>Our ISP doesn't carry all newsgroup postings so I do miss a large
>percentage of what is aired here. I can't visit every day so that
>exacerbates things.
>
>During a conversation with Steve Young, he mentioned there was a flurry
>of postings regarding Pete Schmitz's playfield cleaning article that
>appears in our October issue. The article is a third (and concluding)
>installment.
>
>I wasn't aware of the RGP responses and have just finished reading them
>via dejanews (thank heavens for that service!). Needless to say, I was
>more than passive in my interest! As the person soley responsible for
>every syllable that will see ink in GameRoom, any feedback whatsoever is
>treasured reading.
>
>My request of everyone who posted regarding the October article is thus:
>may I have your collective permissions to reprint your responses in an
>upcoming issue of GameRoom?
You're welcome to reprint anything I've posted, to any usenet group. Like
others, though, I'd like to see the original article. I would not go so far
as to say that the article is "wrong", but I don't agree with what I have
*heard* the content is. Steel wool is an abrasive. Yes, it's a mild one if
you're using a fine enough grade, but I still don't believe that it's a
good *first* choice for cleaning grime. I'd prefer to start with something
less abrasive. If that doesn't work, then I would consider using something
stronger.
>It is vital that the hobby readership hear
>all sides of such an important topic and I can think of no better voices
>than those that reside here. I want to include everything (even if it
>was negative about the magazine in general)
Nice to see you're trying to present as much information as possible. I
can't possibly fault the magazine in general, as I've never seen it.
>Lastly, if you did not weigh in on the playfield cleaning topic, and
>_read_ the article by Pete Schmitz, I would like to invite your
>opinions, too. One of the disclaimers throughout his three-part piece
>was that you may or may not agree with his techniques, but it was how he
>did things.
Yep, and that's fine. If it works for him, and his games, I can't really
fault him for presenting it in that light. I'd be a bit worried that
somebody might ruin an otherwise not-too-bad playfield by trying to clean
it using steel wool, but perhaps the article addressed that concern.
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
|David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
|Systems Programmer Northern Illinois University |
| |
| Stupidity, if left untreated, is self correcting. - Heinlein |
| |
|I'm tired of receiving crap in my mailbox, so the E-mail address has been|
|munged to foil the junkmail bots. Humans will figure it out on their own.|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
David Gersic
[-snip-]
>I'd like to reply to this: I unfortunately haven't seen all these
>postings that are referrred to but: I think that some of you just didn't
>understand the point of the article.
Is there a chance you can post the original text of the article here, so we
can all have a better shot at understanding it?
[-snip-]
>hours on the phone or on the road tracking them down. The important
>thing, which a lot of you missed, was to use a separate compound and
>then a polish, not doing it in one step like with wildcat, which a lot
>of people still do.
This much I can agree with, at least. Yes, cleaning and polishing should be
considered separate from waxing.
>I also pointed out that there are MUCH better
>products to use than Novus or "polecat 125" and the like. The car
>products are made to a much finer standard and will out perform anything
>else.
Novus is wonderful stuff on plastic surfaces. That's what it's meant for.
It works nicely on car parts (like plastic convertible windows) too. For
paint, I'm less convinced, though it does seem to clean well. It's always
nice to see what other people are trying, and using with success, though.
>You don't have to buy the exact ones I use, as I said, it was just the
>point of using several steps (like woodworkers do) and using better
>stuff.
I've done enough (amature) woodworking to understand this.
>Now for the steel wool- don't knock it if you haven't done it.
I've done it, on a scrap playfield. No, it didn't immediately crumble to
dust under my fingertips, but it did remove a layer of paint (older game,
pre-Diamondplate). That would concern me on a game I was planning to keep.
If I were planning to clear-coat the playfield, I'd be less concerned as
long as I didn't cut through the paint to the wood, as the surface will be
protected by the polyurethane. But, if you're going to only have paint and
wax, it seems to me that the more paint you have, the better off you are.
>was VERY pessimistic when someone showed it to me, and as I said it may
>not be for everyone. You really can't get it across in text, it is
>something you have to see for yourself. It doesn't leave big scratches
>like you might think, if it is done correctly. As with anything, I am
>sure there is a way to do it wrong and mess up a game, but I don't do it
>that way.
That's pretty much my point. No, it doesn't leave big scratches, and yes,
it may be a valuable and useful technique. I hope you presented the caveat
in the article, though, that doing this wrong can screw up the playfield
and leave it in worse shape than it was before.
>All you are doing is getting off the surface 3 or 4 percent
>of the clear coat, where all the grunge has settled in. If you were
>refinishing a chair, would you just put the new stain right on over the
>old? of course not!
No. Having refinished several pieces of furniture, I have some experience
in this area. What I'd do is remove the finish down to the bare wood, sand
smooth, then refinish. The problem is that re-painting a playfield is not
as easy as re-staining a dresser. I wish it was.
>opinion on it. Until then, I guess it makes an interesting thread for
>people to post to...hehe. Remember this- we all want the same thing- we
>want our games to look as nice as they possibly can in every way. As I
>said, I knew the steel wool was a controversial topic, but I think it
>is important to get ideas out there and I accomplished exactly what I
>wanted to do- I got everyone talking about playfield cleaning and
>discussing their techniques and now everyone can benefit from the
>exchange of all the different ideas- isn't that great?
What we really need you to do is find a way to clean out those little ball
"swirls" that we're all staring at. Cleaning grime is easy. ;-)
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
|David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
|Systems Programmer Northern Illinois University |
| |
| Lawyer: someone who makes sure that he gets what's coming to you. |
David Gersic
>I missed the initial post but read the flaming about steel wool.
>Before you panic, realize that 0000 steel wool is about as abrasive
>as Comet.
Try the steel wool on your sink some time. Or, have a look at the bottom of
a stainless steel pot that has been scrubbed out with an SOS pad (steel
wool with soap).
>Unless you're applying about 1200 psi to the pad, it typically
>cleans the surface without scratching and leaves it as if you had used
>rubbing compound.
It's slightly more abrasive than rubbing compound.
I actually had pretty good results with Mequire's "Body Scrub". It's meant
for cleaning cars and seems to be a very mild abrasive. I'd try that before
I'd use steel wool. Not that I wouldn't use steel wool, I just wouldn't
*start* with it.
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
|David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
|Systems Programmer Northern Illinois University |
| |
| The shadowy figure seems to be trying to get your attention. |
MJMDudeman
Will test for myself, and see what's up. Haven't heard incorrect info from
Gameroom yet.
-M
>Subject: Re: GameRoom Mag/permission request (semi-long)
>From: dgersic_@_niu.edu (David Gersic)
>Date: 10/15/98 10:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <706kjm$nvj$1...@husk.cso.niu.edu>
c...@provide.net
> psch...@dbtech.net wrote:
>> c...@provide.net wrote:
> >
> > it's ok with me, BUT you have to print the ENTIRE thread.
> > use dejanew's "view thread" to get ALL the contents
> > of a thread. i certainly don't save the messages i post;
> > that's why dejanews is there.
> >
> > it would be GREAT if you could post the original pete article
> > on RGP too. you would get greater response and more opinions.
> >
> > my personal opinion is this guy has something to sell.
> > as a hobbiest, i am VERY cautious of these people. he basically
> > tells me how to scratch my playfield with steelwool, then use
> > HIS product (snakeoil) to remove the scratches. it just sound
> > suspicious to me. but then again i NEVER buy "recommended"
> > stocks from stock brokers either...
> >
> > and besides, steel wool and pinball don't go together. do you
> > wash your car with 0000 steel wool? of course not! then why
> > clean your playfield with it! playfields and cars are basically
> > painted with the same materials (until about the mid-1980's).
> >
> postings that are referrred to but: I think that some of you just didn't
> sell" per se- the main focus of the third part was how good those two
> waxes work, granted, but I also told you how to get them for yourself. I
> only offer them as a convenience for people who don't want to spend
> thing, which a lot of you missed, was to use a separate compound and
> then a polish, not doing it in one step like with wildcat, which a lot
> products to use than Novus or "polecat 125" and the like. The car
> products are made to a much finer standard and will out perform anything
> have been through hundreds of games, so I have had a chance to compare.
> point of using several steps (like woodworkers do) and using better
> was VERY pessimistic when someone showed it to me, and as I said it may
> not be for everyone. You really can't get it across in text, it is
> something you have to see for yourself. It doesn't leave big scratches
> like you might think, if it is done correctly. As with anything, I am
> sure there is a way to do it wrong and mess up a game, but I don't do it
> of the clear coat, where all the grunge has settled in. If you were
> refinishing a chair, would you just put the new stain right on over the
> steel wool, I would NEVER do it any other way. I will put one of my
> steel wool playfields up against any other technique or process you can
> think of, any time or place..hehe. If it freaks you out, try it on a
> spare playfield or don't do it at all; it's your choice. Unlike most
> people, I don't think there is "only my way and it is the only right
> way". As I said, I shared it for the benefit of people new to the hobby
> and people who aren't satisfied with the results they have been getting
> and want something more. Conversely I stand behind what I said because
> in my experience it is the most effective way to do it. If you are
> interested, I have sold several orders so far and everyone has really
> loved it, whether they steel wooled or not. I guess the only way to find
> out is to actually try some, then you can make a genuine and honest
> people to post to...hehe. Remember this- we all want the same thing- we
> want our games to look as nice as they possibly can in every way. As I
> said, I knew the steel wool was a controversial topic, but I think it
> is important to get ideas out there and I accomplished exactly what I
> wanted to do- I got everyone talking about playfield cleaning and
> discussing their techniques and now everyone can benefit from the
> exchange of all the different ideas- isn't that great?
(side note: alan requested i mention this....)
just a suggestion: paragraphs are a GOOD thing.
signed, the Alan Meyers school of posting :)
anyway, sorry about that slight attempt at humor...
i have used 0000 steel wool on lots of painted surfaces.
i KNOW what it does. i don't think it's a good idea unless the
playfield just won't come clean any other way. it's a LAST
resort.
again, this is the perfect analogy: do you clean your car
with 0000 steel wool?
playfields today are basically plastic. diamondplate is
a plastic. because of this, NOVUS2 is the product you should use.
why risk experimentation? it's the only product WILLIAMS suggests
you use.
as for older playfields, i still feel novus2 is the best.
and i have tried several automotive products too. namely
Meguire's number 4 and 7, and Dupont 1500s and 3000s.
Dupont's products are basically equivalents to sandpaper
grades. 1500s is only for heavily scratch, and is similar
to using 1500 grit sand paper (not really, but that's a
way to look at it). 3000s is the same deal. i would equate
1500s to Novus3, and 3000s to Novus2.
Though i like the automotive products, they DO NOT do as
good a job of POLISHING as the Novus products. they clean
just as well though.
i have also used wet/dry sandpaper on playfields. i once worked
on a Addams Family that some DOLT sanded with STEEL WOOL
(though a heavier grade than 0000). the guy i was doing the
work for thought the playfield was RUINED (i bought the
game for $800 because of this!). i managed to wet sand the
playfield to 2000 grit (in steps), to removed the scratches.
i finished up with Novus3 and Novus2. the playfield looked
near new when i was done. the only reason i got away with this
was because of the diamondplate. there is some much FILM THICKNESS
it allowed this. if this was an older game, i would have been
thru the finish and down to the wood...
Terry Cumming
(lots snipped)
> i have used 0000 steel wool on lots of painted surfaces.
> i KNOW what it does. i don't think it's a good idea unless the
> playfield just won't come clean any other way. it's a LAST
> resort.
I used steel wool on an old palyfield recently to get rid of a coat of
yellowed shellac or whatever people used to splat on playfields to
protect them. I had to rub very hard to remove this layer (which made
nice powder blues into very ugly dark turquise/green) and yet I was
surprised to see that it did not touch the paint underneath except in a
couple of small areas. I guess this was a last resort, but I now feel it
does have a place!
Terry Cumming
Gregg Woodcock
: timf <coi...@gameroommagazine.com> wrote:
: >My request of everyone who posted regarding the October article is thus:
: >may I have your collective permissions to reprint your responses in an
: >upcoming issue of GameRoom?
: I have a feeling that it's not nearly that simple. There may be some
: extremely complicated legal issues at stake here, and you should seek
: professional advice before reproducing Usenet posts in any publication.
Once something is posted to usenet without a copyright notice it has
been submitted to the public domain (unless the content of the posting
was stolen from some other copyrighted material).
--
THANX...Gregg day 972.684.7380 night UNLIST/PUBL TEXAS NOT CANADA!
wood...@nortel.com or wood...@fastlane.net
*CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)*
"If you quote me on this I'll have to deny it; I won't remember because
I have such a bad memory. Not only that, but my memory is *terrible*."
kin...@total.net
>
> c...@provide.net wrote:
> (lots snipped)
> > i have used 0000 steel wool on lots of painted surfaces.
> > i KNOW what it does. i don't think it's a good idea unless the
> > playfield just won't come clean any other way. it's a LAST
> > resort.
>
> yellowed shellac or whatever people used to splat on playfields to
> protect them. I had to rub very hard to remove this layer (which made
> nice powder blues into very ugly dark turquise/green) and yet I was
> surprised to see that it did not touch the paint underneath except in a
> couple of small areas. I guess this was a last resort, but I now feel it
> does have a place!
>
> Terry Cumming
Steel wool is great on 50's playfields. I have also been using SOS pads
for years. It does a great job on the cabinet sides as well.
Regards Harold
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psch...@dbtech.net
Well, again, you have no idea what you are talking about because you
have never used the stuff I use. The car analogy is absolutely stupid
and irrelevant. I could say "well you don't put rubber rings and light
bulbs on your car either" and make as much sense. You are one of those
guys who thinks they know it all, have a closed mind, and dislike
anything they don't understand. Since I have seen the results with my
own eyes I KNOW for a fact that steel wool won't hurt anything. Let me
make it clear that I don't use it on diamond plate. Whoever you saw do
it must have pressed down way too hard and done it over and over. Why do
you think they have steel wool in different grades anyway? For doing
stuff like this! People use it on furniture everyday, and furniture is a
much better analogy than your car. What does a car have to do with a
piece of wood? Are you suggesting that I say "hey, I just paid 200 bucks
for this game and the playfield is nice so I think I'll take steel wool
and a chisel and destroy it..hahaha (maniacal laughter)". I want my
stuff to look good, so if I did it and it really worked, obviously I am
going to stick with it. Again, I have the evidence of what I have seen
time and again on my side. By the way, it might interest you to know
that Novus is nothing but a car polish. That's right, it is a car polish
that is packaged and sent to Novus, who then sells it to you. So your
argument isn't valid. See, the whole thing is, I believe you are
entitled to do your games however you want- acoording to you though, no
one else is entitled to do it any way but yours- if they do then they
are a "dolt". Now that is a silly attitude for an adult to have. I'm not
cracking on you for using novus- if that is good enough for you then go
right on using it. I think novus is a decent product- it just isn't good
enough for me personally. Again, you missed the whole point of the
article (I wonder if you really read it)- the steel wool was less than
10 percent of what it was about. As I said, I brought it up because a
lot of people don't know about it and a lot of people will love the
results they get from it and be happy with their game.
Ron Maxwell
public. But I have been using 0000 grade steel wool to clean my
playfields for years now.
=== Disclaimer Mode ====
I am not an expert on this process or any other thing to deal with
pinball machines. I just like to fix and play them. I also have no
intention of selling any of them. Much to my wife's dismay.
=== End Disclaimer Mode ===
I have about 15 machines all together. Most of them are EM's. I have
never been happy with Novus or any other cleaner. But I tried 0000 steel
wool and it works for me. I have used it to remove old mylar glue
residue on a cyclone and clean various other playfields. All the
playfields I used it were from the late 60's through the mid 80's. Hey.
It may not be for everybody but it worked for me. To each is own. I am
happy with it and I have never had a bad results because of it.
I discovered this when I switched out a Night Rider (Bally '76 EM)
playfied with a brand new one. The owner of the new playfield told me
there was a "scuff" mark towards the top of the playfield. I bought it
anyway. I tried Novus. I tried Wildcat. Nothing worked. However, I
used a little "0000" steel wool and it came out with absolutely no real
effort and no visible damage to the playfield. Every machine I get I
use this on as a first cleaning (unless it is already clean). If the
paint looks like it might flake I don't go over it.
Like I said. I am not an expert I just use it because it works. If you
have a scrap playfiled. Try it out for yourself.
Please Note: I still won't use it on my Fireball though. Why? It
isn't dirty. It still looks like the day I got it (grin!!! ).
Ron Maxwell
Scott R Tiesma and/or Michelle Oyen Tiesma
> Once something is posted to usenet without a copyright notice it has
> been submitted to the public domain (unless the content of the posting
> was stolen from some other copyrighted material).
individuals. Only material expressly labeled as public domain becomes
such...
The below was taken from http://www.templetons.com/brad//copymyths.html
*****BEGIN QUOTE******
1. "If it doesn't have a copyright notice, it's not copyrighted."
This was true in the past, but today almost all major nations follow the
Berne copyright convention. For example, in the USA, almost everything
created privately and originally after April 1, 1989 is copyrighted and
protected whether it has a notice or not. The default you should assume
for other people's works is that they are copyrighted and may not be
copied unless you know otherwise. There are some old works that lost
protection without notice, but frankly you should not risk it unless you
know for sure.
It is true that a notice strengthens the protection, by warning people,
and by allowing one to get more and different damages, but it is not
necessary. If it looks copyrighted, you should assume it is. This
applies to pictures, too. You may not scan pictures from magazines and
post them to the net, and if you come upon something unknown, you
shouldn't post that either.
[...]
3. "If it's posted to Usenet it's in the public domain."
False. Nothing modern is in the public domain anymore unless the owner
explicitly puts it in the public domain(*). Explicitly, as in you have a
note from the author/owner saying, "I grant this to the public domain."
Those exact words or words very much like them.
*****END QUOTE******
--
Scott R. Tiesma
tiesma_@_pclink.com (Remove underscores to email)
http://www.pclink.com/tiesma/
c...@provide.net
finishes used on cars and playfields are the SAME till
about the mid-1980's. do you even know what the material they
used is? i have done extensive research into old paint. here's
a web page i wrote (over 100k) on the subject, though it has
nothing to do with pinball. but the materials described in this
page are the same used on cars, guitars, and pinball playfields.
http://www.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html
film thickness on pre-diamondplate playfields is TOO THIN
for steel wool, of ANY grade. you are doing the equivalent
of ten of thousands of plays by using 0000 steel wool.
no doubt it looks great when done. BUT you have taken off
considerable film thickness. this reduces the live of the
playfield at minimum.
i have done considerable paint and restoration work from
cars, furniture, to vintage guitars, PROFESSIONALLY.
how much lacquer have YOU sprayed? i'm not talking out
my ass here. i'm talking from experience.
i do agree with your point on NOT trying to wax and clean
in the same step. that has been discussed here in RGP in length.
the 0000 steel wool technique is a new thread, and hence
that's why we're focusing on that particular subject, and
not the rest of your article.
novus could well be a "re-marketed" product. millwax is an
automotive product, re-marketed for the amusement industry.
but that doesn't matter. novus gives GENTLE but GREAT results.
for the average joe that doesn't understand paint, film
thickness, or steel wool, it's a FAIL SAFE product. they
can use it on diamondplate, or a 1950's game without
problems. that's why it's so good; it's ONE product they
need, and they don't have to understand how it works...
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
psch...@dbtech.net
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
You have too much time on your hands! Like I said, you have absolutely
no idea what you are saying. You are an idiot, actually. I just did my
Swords of Fury with steel wool. First, let me say that it isn't a car
and I don't drive it!! I also didn't see any tire on it..perhaps your
machines differ. I couldn't give less of a shit what you use on your car
or about cars in general- I think you keep saying "car this and car
that" because you are blowing smoke. I think I was pretty clear about
it- If you are staisfied with less, that is cool. Me, I want my machine
to really stand out. The thing is, there are some micro scrathes left by
steel wool and for that matter anything else. When it is two inches from
your nose I'm sure they look gross. Put the glass on and light it up and
you will never see them. See, these are USED games, so they are never
going to be perfect. What I want is a deep shine that I can see my
reflection in. Like I said, I don't care at all what you use and if you
are satisfied with it then great. However, don't get on here and act
like I'm an idiot and you are an expert because we are all just giving
our opinion. Personally I think your attitude sucks, because you haven't
tried my polish. Instead of blowing smoke out of your butt, why don't
you order some and try it? See, your opinion doesn't count until you
have actually TRIED it. then we'll talk. How many playfields have you
tried to steel wool? How do I know you didn't press down as hard as you
could like a maniac? How do I know you weren't using "sos"? There are
just too many unanswered questions in your "argument". Like I said, I
want people to know about this technique. I'm sure there are others but
space only permitted me the one technique and I chose the one I use at
home on my games. If you want to leave your games dirty and half assed
then have at it!
Jess Askey
Just .02 more...
Paint on a pinball machine PF and the finish on a car are remarkably
similar. Both have a paint base, then a finish topcoat. Yes, if you
steel wool a PF, it will shine like almost new... but the cost of that
is that the finish will be exremely thin or gone. If you were going to
re-coat your PF with some Varathan Diamond Finish afterwards you would
have a pristine PF. But without recoating it you run the risk of just
lessening the life of the PF. Im not saying this is good-or-bad, just
that there are advantages and dis-advantages.
If you are shining up a pin so you can sell quickly, steel wool takes
the cake.
But if you want to take care of a game for a long term love, steel
wool sucks paint.
Clay really does know what he is talking about when it comes to paint,
try his website.
c...@provide.net
way too personally, and it's not meant as an attack on you. it's
an attack on the methodology of using 0000 steel wool on playfields.
here are the facts:
- the paint used on playfields (pre-diamondplate) and CARS (till about
1985) is the SAME.
- film thickness on playfields (pre-diamondplate) is WAY TOO THIN.
using ANY grade of steel wool is the equivalent to tens of thousands
of games played. you are prematurely wearing out a playfield.
i HAVE used steel wool on many finishing projects. i KNOW what it
is capable of doing. i have even tried it once on a playfield. this
game stood without a playfield glass for 10 years or more in a guy's
garage, and i just couldn't get the damn thing clean. it was
my LAST resort. i was not happy with the outcome, but nothing
was going to make this playfield look good...
as YOU stated, steel wool (even 0000 grade) leaves SCRATCHES in
the playfield. these won't come out with polishing compound (as
you stated).
problems with these scratches (even though they are fine) are:
- they are scratches!
- they indicate you have REMOVED playfield paint.
- they allow the accumulation of DIRT.
- they slow the ball.
and the most important problem:
- they create small "hills and valleys" in your plafield paint.
this last point IS THE MOST IMPORTANT. these hills and valleys
make your PLAYFIELD WEAR EVEN FASTER!
as the ball rolls across the playfield surface, the smoother
the surface, the less wear. this is why waxing a playfield is
so important; wax fills the imperfections, making the surface
smoother.
if a playfield has lots of hills and valleys, the ball has
to PLOW through these. this causes INCREASED PLAYFIELD WEAR.
so by using the 0000 steel wool, you have:
- removed film thickness (paint) in the actually sanding of
the playfield.
- created a situation where additional playfield wear will
be created. wear FAR ABOVE what would be created if the
surface was NOT steel wooled.
- have given dirt a very nice place to accumulate.
again, i have been doing professional finishes for 20 years.
i rarely ever use steel wool for anything, because it gives
amateur results. in surface preparation, it's a bad product
(leaves fine "hair" which is difficult to remove before
painting). in finalization of a finish, it's a bad product
(even if a non-glossed surface is desired). it's too course,
at any grade...
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------