Mopping up in Scotland
Nick Catford
to the far north of Scotland earlier this week to mop up 18 more posts in
Banff, Nairn, Caithness, Sutherland and Inverness-shire. Full details of the
sites visited appear below.
Having flown to Aberdeen on Monday 23rd June, I was met by Jim McNally from
Inverbervie. Early the following morning we drove up to John O'Groats,
across the top of Scotland to Cape Wrath, down the west coast and back
across to Aberdeen. I'm not sure if Jim knew what he was letting himself in
for. With 800 miles covered in two days to complete an interesting
programmed of sites.
With many of the ROC sites on the coast we also had the opportunity to visit
a number of WW2 radar stations and from a distance, one R10 rotor site.
The Barrock ROC post on Dunnet Head, 15 miles north east of Thurso shares
the head with a WW2 Chain Home Low radar station, designated Station 49B
under 70 Wing RAF.
Dunnet Head is a public open space with free access to the radar buildings
most of which are open. We were able to identify the operations block, the
largest building on the site, the stand-by set house and the transformer
house and three smaller buildings. An aerial photograph of the site can be
seen at:
http://www.caithness.org/atoz/aerialviews/coastal/photogallery/photos.htm?2?2
The ROC post is just visible as two small dots to the right of the viewing
area on the left hand side of the picture.
The radar station is described as 'caretaking' by the end of the war with
its future also described as 'caretaking'. The station had two radars, a
10cm AMES Type 30 (A CD1 Mk3 issued only to Admiralty stations) and a Type
57 (AMES 14 Mk2 [T]).
As it was 9pm by the time we left Dunnet Head and we hadn't arranged any
accommodation for the night we didn't have time to look at the Navigational
Radar Site at Burifa Hill, half a mile to the south of Dunnet Head. Large
scale maps of the area show there are still a number of buildings on the
site. This was GEE site with is a parabolic navigation system which was
master of the northern chain together with a monitor. A LORAN long wave
navigation radar was also on site.
The station was still operational at the end of the war. (PRO References
LORAN: AIR29/167, whole site AIR25/686).
Our first port of call on Wednesday morning was to Durness in Sutherland. As
well as the obligatory ROC posts there was a plethora of radar sites Sango
which was a Chain Home, Chain Home Low and OBOE station.
Sango is an interesting site with many buildings remaining. The eastern part
of the site lies on farm land at Leirinmore (NC422672), there is little to
see here apart from the bases for two guyed aerial masts and the base of a
small lattice tower. The bulk of the station is to the west on the other
side of a small inlet at Leirinbeg (NC415676), this is public open land with
free access.
The entrance to the site is along the access road to a council refuse dump
with the original guardhouse at the end of the road. There are still a large
number of buildings on the site including a transmitter and receiver block,
stand-by set house, transformer house, Stanton air raid shelter and five
large rectangular open topped building. It's unclear what was housed in
these buildings. There are also a number of aerial bases for guyed masts
(transmitter aerials) and lattice towers (receiver aerials). A picture of
one of the operations blocks can be seen at
http://www.faresync.co.uk/gallery/lejog2/day39.shtml
Just to the north of Durness village is Faraid Head which was the site of a
Centimetric Early Warning (CEW) radar station in the 1950's, part of the
later Rotor 3 programme. The station is omitted from many lists of rotor
stations so it seems likely it was never completed. The operations block was
an R10 surface bunker, one of only 3 to be built as part of the Rotor
programme (the other two are at Aird Uig on Lewis and Saxa Vord on
Shetland).
There was no road shown on the map but as we could see the buildings two
miles away on the head we decided to walk. It was soon clear that there was
a road when a four wheel drive vehicle sped past us at speed on the beach
and half a mile ahead we could see a tarmaced road rising up from the beach
towards Faraid Head.
As we got closer it soon became obvious that this was still an active
military site. We could see the R10 operations block painted brightly with
black and orange chequered pattern. Close by were a number of derelict radar
buildings, including on the south side of the site the foundations of a
large rectangular building that was probably a Type 80 modulator building
that was known to exist on the site.
Faraid Head is now the range control centre for the Cape Wrath and Garvie
Island Ranges.
There are four distinct ranges in the Cape Wrath Sector:
1. The Naval Gunfire Support Range covering the whole of the land of Cape
Wrath and is used for naval guns to practice shore bombardment. This range
is usually used between four and eight times a year.
2. The Garvie Island Bombing Range is the only one in Europe where live one
thousand -pound bombs may be dropped. When this range is active for live
bombing the Naval Gunfire Support range is also activated because of the
safety circle for live bombs includes part of the mainland. This range is
the most used of all the ranges but it may only be used up to fourteen days
in any month. Aircraft come from all over Europe to this range. The attack
profiles bring the aircraft onto the range seaward at low and medium levels
providing realistic training for ground and air crews and the random testing
of production bombs in a controlled environment. It takes four years
training for a combat ready pilot to drop one thousand pound bombs on
Garvie.
3. Close Air Support Range uses target plots on the mainland close to the
shore and live bombing is not allowed. It is normally used three or four
times a year for air to ground cannon and rocket firing and inert bombing.
4. The Torpedo Range is an entirely off shore activity and the land is not
affected.
As we approached the site we heard a number of very loud bangs and we could
see a red flag flying alongside the R10 building so we obviously weren't
going to get any closer than the main gate.
When the ranges are not active the whole of the head is opened up to the
public so a return visit at a later date is desirable.
On the way up to the head we noticed further WW2 radar buildings, three
quarters of a mile north of Durness village. This is an unknown installation
but we didn't have time to investigate.
The ROC post is located to the west of Durness just south of the Balnakeil
Craft Village. The craft village is housed in the former domestic camp for
the rotor station And all the buildings are still in a good state of repair.
There were other radar sites in the area but as the main purpose of this
tour was to visit ROC posts these will have to wait for another day and
another trip. The Sutherland countryside is bleak and spectacular and worthy
of another visit in the very near future.
My thanks for Jim for driving; I'm not sure if he knew what he was letting
himself in for and to Bob Jenner for the historical radar notes.
Nick Catford
17.6.2003
ROC Posts
Aberdeenshire
Name: ROSEHEARTY
OS Grid Ref: NJ93816746
Date opened: June 1959
Date closed: October 1968
Location: On Rosehearty Golf Course on the south side of the coastal
Rosehearty to Sandhaven road.
Description: DEMOLISHED No trace of anything remains. The 7th tee now
occupies the site. The post was visible in a 1973 aerial photograph but the
area was covered in gorse in a 1988 photograph so it's unclear if the post
was still there then. The golf course has been built since that date.
Remaining surface buildings: An unusual structure stands at NJ93296680 It is
a rectangular stone building with an octagonal concrete extension at the
rear. The extension is slightly higher and open topped. This could be an
aircraft.
Date of visit: 16.07.2001 & 24.06.2003
Banfshire
Name: ABERCHIRDER
OS Grid Ref: NJ61955635
Date opened: December 1960
Date closed: September 1991
Location: On a low mound in a square compound 75 yards west of a farm access
road that runs north from an un-named minor road.
Description: LOCKED All surface features remain intact but the post has been
damaged with the top of the ventilation shaft and the louvers removed. The
louvers on the ventilation shaft adjacent to the access shaft are intact and
painted white as is the GZI mount. The rest of the surface features are
painted dark green with some flaking. That hatch is locked but can be opened
with a Scottish 'T' bar key. Internally the post is in good condition with
many artifacts remaining including table, shelf, cupboard, fire blanket in
its box, 2 plastic chairs, 1 (original) folding canvas chair, light, WB1401
speech receiver with WB1410 filter unit, BT junction boxes and wiring, 3
cluster maps, stationery, kitchen utensils, rain cape, saucepan, plastic
bowl, BPI mount, wire brush, wall mounted OS map showing the locations of
other posts in the area, broom, pick (no handle) and paint pots. The timer
is unusually mounted beside the battery fuse box. There is a false wooden
floor which is now rotten and a wooden shelf in the toilet recess.
Remaining surface buildings: None
Date of visit: 24.6.2003
Name: DRUMMUIR
OS Grid Ref: NJ38174438
Date opened: June 1960
Date closed: September 1991
Location: On a low mound in a rectangular compound on a small hill north of
houses and west of the junction of the B9014 and B9115
Description: LOCKED All surface features remain intact with the green/grey
paint flaking and one of the ventilation louvers damaged. A metal dome on
the ventilation shaft indicates this was a master post. The hatch is locked
but can be opened with a Scottish 'T' bar key. Internally the post has been
almost completely stripped, even the door hinges being taken. All that
remains is the counter balance weight in the toilet recess, a tool rack and
some wooden brackets. A small table and a large quantity of beer bottles
remain on the floor.
Remaining surface buildings: An aircraft post stands nearby, outside the
compound; it is approximately 7' X 5' and is built from concrete blocks. It
originally consisted of an open topped observation area approximately 5' X
5' and a crew room with a sloping tin sheet as a roof. A tin roof has been
added over the observation room as well. There is a wooden door at one end
which is locked.
Date of visit: 24.6.2003
Name: GARDENSTOWN
OS Grid Ref: NJ80376447
Date opened: April 1960
Date closed: October 1968
Location: Located on a low mound in a large compound (probably not the post
compound) 150 metres up a farm track on the north side of the farmyard. A
telegraph pole stands in one corner of the compound but this serves nearby
houses. The track begins on the SW side of Bracoden Road, just before the
houses.
Description: OPEN All surface features remain intact but in poor condition.
The concrete apron around the shaft has gone. The ventilation shaft adjacent
to the access shaft is partly demolished with its louvers missing. They are
also missing on the main ventilation shaft which is in good condition. The
hatch is detached with the corners bent up, the step is also detached and
until recently was sitting on top of the hatch. The BPI pipe is bent over.
Internally the post is strewn with rubble. Some wiring and the cupboard
remain in place. The table and shelf are detached from the wall.
Remaining surface buildings: None
Date of visit: 24.6.2003
Name: GRANGE
OS Grid Ref: NJ52125275
Date opened: June 1960
Date closed: September 1991
Location: On a low mound in a rectangular compound between the A95 and an
un-named minor road. Close to the junction of the two roads.
Description: LOCKED All surface features remain intact with some flaking of
the dark green paint. The step is detached, the apron is cracked and the
hatch is locked. A disused telegraph pole stands alongside the compound.
Remaining surface buildings: None
Date of visit: 24.6.2003
Nairn
Name: NAIRN
OS Grid Ref: NH898568
Date opened: December 1961
Date closed: October 1968
Location: On the south side of Lochloy Road. The post site might lie under
the recently built Sutors View housing estate although the official grid
reference puts the post site on sand dunes a little to the east of the
estate.
Description: DEMOLISHED No trace of anything remains
Remaining surface buildings: None
Date of visit: 24.6.2003
Future actions: CONFIRM POSITION, CALCULATE 8 FIGURE NGR
Caithness
Name: BARROCK
OS Grid Ref: ND20527645
Date opened: November 1959
Date closed: September 1991
Location: By a viewing area on Dunnet Hill a few yards to the west of the
trig. Station.
Description: LOCKED All surface features remain intact with the green paint
in fair condition with a little flaking. The louvers on the ventilation
shaft are missing. The hatch is locked and when visited in 2000 could be
opened with a Scottish 'T' bar key. A metal dome on the ventilation shaft
and three guying points indicates this was a master post. Internally the
post is in good condition with numerous items remaining including table,
shelf, cupboard, battery box, siren box, dome key, various posters, cluster
map, BT connection boxes, eye wash, toilet rolls, kitchen utensils, 2
kettles, Jerry can, bench, wiring and hatch locking bar. The locking
mechanism is now seized and the hatch can no longer be opened.
Remaining surface buildings: A number of buildings stand to the east of the
post. These are from a WW2 chain home low radar station and comprise the
operations block, stand-by set house, transformer building and a number of
smaller buildings.
Date of visit: 24.6.2003
Name: JOHN O'GROATS
OS Grid Ref: ND40557325
Date opened: September 1959
Date closed: September 1991
Location: In a large square compound beside trig. Station. On the south side
of the car park at Duncansby Head.
Description: OPEN All surface features remain intact with the light green
paint flaking badly. The hatch has been forced at the hinge pins and opened
the wrong way. The supporting framework for the counterbalance weight is
badly bent out of shape and the hatch can't be closed. Internally it is in
good condition with much remaining including table, shelf, cupboard, rope,
battery fuse box, battery box, tool rack, toilet rolls, clip board, visitors
log, BT junction boxes/wiring, eye wash, list of posts, 2 boxes of printing
out paper, 1 box of photographic paper, kitchen utensils, small portable
solid fuel stove, mess tins, spare lights, thermometer, rubber gloves,
Wellington boots, mirror and various posters.
Remaining surface buildings: In an adjacent compound there is a small
dilapidated shack with half of the structure completely missing. This was
the post hut. Nearby there are a number of guying points for a mast but this
probably had nothing to do with the post. There are also several batteries
of the type normally found in underground posts.
Date of visit: 24.6.2002
Name: WICK
OS Grid Ref: ND36525396
Date opened: September 1959
Date closed: October 1968
Location: On a small mound on the north side of Wick Airport within the
perimeter fence. A few yards to the north of the perimeter track.
Description: OPEN All surface features remain intact with the ventilation
louvres missing on the main ventilation shaft and the hatch frame detached.
The hatch is welded to the frame. The louvers on the secondary ventilation
shaft are still in place. The FSM pipe has rusted through. Internally the
post has been stripped with only the fuse box and some wiring remaining and
a little water on the floor. When visited in 2000 it contained a canvas
chair, cupboard, 3 Jerry cans, folding table; these items are now broken and
lying in the undergrowth around the post. In the past the post has been used
by airport fire service staff for training purposes. During an exercise it
was filled with high-density foam and firemen had to locate and remove
objects while in their protective suits. It is no longer used for this
purpose on health and safety grounds.
Remaining surface buildings: Much of interest remains around this old
military airfield including 2 of the 4 original hangers, original control
tower, hardened buildings and a Pickett-Hamilton Fort which, until recently,
was still working. It now stands alongside the main runway with the
hand-cranked pump beside it.
Date of visit: 24.6.2003
Sutherland
Name: DORNOCH
OS Grid Ref: NH816921
Date opened: December 1959
Date closed: October 1968
Location: The post was probably located on sand dunes on the south side of
the caravans at "Grannie's Heilan' Hame" Haven holiday park at Embo.
Description: DEMOLISHED No trace of anything.
Remaining surface buildings: None
Date of visit: 24.6.2003
Future actions: CONFIRM POSITION, CALCULATE 8 FIFGURE NGR
Name: DURNESS
OS Grid Ref: ND39426775
Date opened: November 1959
Date closed: September 1991
Location: In a compound on the south side of Balnakeil Craft Centre which
occupies the domestic camp for the rotor radar station at Faraid Head.
Description: LOCKED All surface features remain intact with the green paint
in good condition. The hatch is locked and secured with a chain. The current
owner uses it for storage.
Remaining surface buildings: None
Date of visit: 25.6.2003
Name: ELPHIN
OS Grid Ref: NC21711188
Date opened: August 1962
Date closed: September 1991
Location: On a low mound in a rectangular compound on the east side of an
un-named minor road and the north side of the access road to Glacbain
(house).
Description: LOCKED All surface features remain intact but the apron around
the access shaft is cracked. There is a double step up to the access shaft.
The concrete base of the FSM pipe and the steps into the compound are
inscribed with initials. The green paint is flaking and the hatch, which is
locked, is rusting badly.
Remaining surface buildings: None
Date of visit: 25.6.2003
Name: KINBRACE
OS Grid Ref: NC85593117
Date opened: November 1959
Date closed: September 1991
Location: On a low mound in a large square compound on the south side of the
B871.
Description: LOCKED All surface features remain intact with the light
blue/green paint flaking badly. Unusually the concrete apron around the
access shaft is also painted. There is some soil erosion around both shafts.
There is a small lined pit nearby which would have been a buried fuel store
for two Jerry cans. The hatch is locked. There is a small lay by next to the
post.
Remaining surface buildings: None
Date of visit: 24.6.2003
Name: LAIRG
OS Grid Ref: NC583060
Date opened: December 1959
Date closed: September 1991
Location: On a low hill south west of the junction between A836 & A839.
Description: DEMOLISHED The only possible evidence is a set of steps cut
into the hillside leading up to an uncultivated corner of a field. There is
also a very wide style on a field boundary that serves no useful purpose.
Remaining surface buildings: None
Date of visit: 25.6.2003
Future actions: CONFIRM POSITION, CALCULATE 8 FIFGURE NGR
Name: SCOURIE
OS Grid Ref: NC149448
Date opened: May 1960
Date closed: September 1991
Location: On the north side of Scourie Cemetery on a low grassed plateau
near the waters edge.
Description: DEMOLISHED The only probable evidence of the post is the base
of a telegraph pole.
Remaining surface buildings: None
Date of visit: 25.6.2003
Future actions: CONFIRM POSITION, CALCULATE 8 FIFGURE NGR
Name: STOER
OS Grid Ref: NC04182752
Date opened: May 1960
Date closed: September 1991
Location: In the north east corner of a campsite.
Description: LOCKED The post is situated on sand dunes and is slowly being
covered by the shifting sands. The BPI pipe is already completely covered
and the sand is a few inched below the level of the ventilation louvers. A
metal dome, also partly buried, on the ventilation shaft and one aerial
guying point indicates this was a master post. The step is detached and very
little paint remains. The hatch is locked but can be opened with a Scottish
'T' bar key. Internally the post is dry but a mess. There is sand on the
floor, which is also strewn with papers. Remaining items include the
cupboard, folding table, shelf, BT junction boxes and wiring, coax aerial
cable, plastic bowl and mug and the hatch locking bar.
Remaining surface buildings: None
Date of visit: 25.6.2003
Inverness-shire
Name: GORTHLECK
OS Grid Ref: NH498955
Date opened: 1963
Date closed: September 1991
Location: In a field north west from the end of Thain Road, Whitebridge
Description: DEMOLISHED No trace of anything remains. A line of telegraph
poles leads west from B862, through pine trees to rear of a holiday lodge
that backs onto the field. The line ends behind the lodge, prior to the
field and about 50 m from the official post position.
Remaining surface buildings: An aircraft post (also demolished) was sited on
the ridge on the east side of B862, opposite Thain Road.
Date of visit: 25.6.2003
Future actions: CONFIRM POSITION, CALCULATE 8 FIGURE NGR
Name: TULLOCH
OS Grid Ref: NN374812
Date opened: September 1960
Date closed: September 1991
Location: On a low mound in a rectangular compound on the north side of A86.
Overlooking Laggan Dam.
Description: LOCKED All surface features remain intact with the beige paint
in good condition with a little flaking. The hatch appears to be a later
replacement.
Remaining surface buildings: None
Date of visit: 25.6.2003
Future actions: CALCULATE 8 FIGURE NGR
Ian Brown
"The station had two radars, a 10cm AMES Type 30 (A CD1 Mk3 issued
only to Admiralty stations) and a Type 57 (AMES 14 Mk2 [T])."
Dunnet Head had more than two types of radar, since as you mention
earlier it was also a Chain Home Low station. Incidentally, since the
radar stations was originally built and operated by the Navy, rather
than the RAF, the CHL was actualy known by the Admiralty desinated
which was CDU or Coast Defence U-boat.
"Our first port of call on Wednesday morning was to Durness in
Sutherland. As well as the obligatory ROC posts there was a plethora
of radar sites Sango which was a Chain Home, Chain Home Low and OBOE
station."
Sango was not an Oboe station. The most northerly Oboe station was
south of Newcastle, quite some distance away! Sango was in fact a Type
7000 station, the ground component of Gee.
I hope this helps clear up any possible confusion.
Nick Catford
"Ian Brown" <ibr...@radararchive.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:31a287ce.0306...@posting.google.com...
Thanks for your comments Ian. I'm not sure where I got the information about
Sango being an Oboe Station as this is clearly wrong. It was indeed a GEE
station with a Type 7000.
I am still confused a little about Dunnet Head as I didn't say it was 'also'
a CHL. I said it was a CHL. I guess I should have listed it as a CHL(N)
indicating it was of Naval origin. It is my understanding that this was only
a Chain Home Low with only the two radars stated. What other radars do you
have listed for Dunnet Head ? There were other radars to the south at Burifa
Hill. According to RAF documentation the station at Burifa Hill is a
different station and indeed an RAF navigation station with 3 navigational
radars. (GEE Master, Gee Monitor and Loran 700). The PRO file on Burifa Hill
doesn't mention Dunnet Head.
Nick
Ian Brown
'also' a CHL. I said it was a CHL."
Yes, this is my point. You correctly say that Dunnet Head was a CHL.
"It is my understanding that this was only a Chain Home Low with only
the two radars stated."
A CHL station was just that: CHL only. Types 30 and 57 are entirely
different, separate equipments and are not CHL. Therefore, Dunnet Head
had CHL, Type 30 AND Type 57; three radar in all. Thus, when you say
that Dunnet Head "was only a Chain Home Low with only the two radars
stated" this is not possible: CHL is CHL only. Other radars are
additional to that. In this case, the Types 30 and 57 were centimetric
radars, much more accurate than the 1.5 metre wavelength of CHL.
"There were other radars to the south at Burifa Hill. According to RAF
documentation the station at Burifa Hill is a different station and
indeed an RAF navigation station with 3 navigational radars. (GEE
Master, Gee Monitor and Loran 700). The PRO file on Burifa Hill
doesn't mention Dunnet Head."
Strictly speaking, there were no radars at Burifa Hill. It was a radio
navigational aids station, providing navigational assistance to
aircraft, rather than detecting and plotting them. This is not radar
by definition, even though similar transmitters were used for Type
7000. Burifa Hill was indeed a separate station to Dunnet Head, and in
fact for most of the war Dunnet Head was operated by a separate
service, being Navy, whereas Burifa was RAF.
Nick Catford
> A CHL station was just that: CHL only. Types 30 and 57 are entirely
> different, separate equipments and are not CHL. Therefore, Dunnet
> Head had CHL, Type 30 AND Type 57; three radar in all.
According to HMSO publication 'Watching the skies' Appendix E. A CHL can be
an AMES Type 2, AMES Type 11, AMES Type 12, AMES Type 30.
The web site 'Radar Pages' lists a CHL as AMES Type 2, AMES Type 3 (CH and
CHL together), AMES Type 11 Mks 1 - 8, AMES Type 12 Mks 1 & 2, AMES Type 18,
AMES Type 25, AMES Type 30, AMES Type 40
They also say a Type 30 is a CD (Coast Defence)/CHL. It is an AMES Type 30
(airforce designation) or a CD No. 1 Mk 3 (admiralty designation).
> the Types 30 and 57 were centimetric radars, much more accurate
> than the 1.5 metre wavelength of CHL.
'Watching the skies' sates that the Type 30 is 1.5 metres
So if the Type 30 is a CHL what was the third radar ?
When refering to CHL I am interpreting this as a generic term rather than a
specific radar.
Nick
Shawn Sanders
"Nick Catford" <Ni...@Swanley1.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bdigm0$tmi$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Name: ROSEHEARTY
...
> Remaining surface buildings: An unusual structure stands at NJ93296680 It
is
> a rectangular stone building with an octagonal concrete extension at the
> rear. The extension is slightly higher and open topped. This could be an
> aircraft.
Doesn't sound much like one to me Nick ! :-D
Shawn
Nick Catford
"Shawn Sanders" <sh...@spambegonentrigue.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bdmmjn$7l7$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
structure. When I get around to scamming the pictures I'll put it on the web
site and you can judge for yourself.
Nick
Ian Brown
> an AMES Type 2, AMES Type 11, AMES Type 12, AMES Type 30.
>
> The web site 'Radar Pages' lists a CHL as AMES Type 2, AMES Type 3 (CH and
> CHL together), AMES Type 11 Mks 1 - 8, AMES Type 12 Mks 1 & 2, AMES Type 18,
> AMES Type 25, AMES Type 30, AMES Type 40
>
> They also say a Type 30 is a CD (Coast Defence)/CHL. It is an AMES Type 30
> (airforce designation) or a CD No. 1 Mk 3 (admiralty designation).
>
> > the Types 30 and 57 were centimetric radars, much more accurate
> > than the 1.5 metre wavelength of CHL.
>
> 'Watching the skies' sates that the Type 30 is 1.5 metres
>
>
> So if the Type 30 is a CHL what was the third radar ?
>
> When refering to CHL I am interpreting this as a generic term rather than a
> specific radar.
All the above just proves the old adage, "don't believe everything
that you read." CHL is indeed a specific radar, later designated as
Type 2. Watching The Skies is a very poor book ,especially with
regards to wartime radar and as far as I'm concerned, isn't worth the
paper it's written on. I cannot emphasise this too strongly: DO NOT
use it as a source for information on wartime British radar.
Sadly, the generally good website, Radar Pages, uses Watching The
Skies, for its source for most of its information on British radar.
Again, where this applies to wartime equipments, it is very
inaccurate.
CHL is Type 2 only.
Type 30 is a centimetric radar and not 1.5 metres.
CD/CHL is an Army version of CHL (slightly different but still on 1.5
metres) and nothing whatsoever to do with Type 30.
Ian Brown
...
Remaining surface buildings: An unusual structure stands at NJ93296680
It is a rectangular stone building with an octagonal concrete
extension at the
rear. The extension is slightly higher and open topped. This could be
an
aircraft.
This structure is part of a VHF/DF station, for the location of
friendly aircraft. It worked by triangulating the aircraft's position
from its VHF radio transmissions.
Nick Catford
Ian,
Thanks for that useful bit of information.
Nick
Nick Catford
> All the above just proves the old adage, "don't believe everything
> that you read." CHL is indeed a specific radar, later designated as
> Type 2. Watching The Skies is a very poor book ,especially with
> regards to wartime radar and as far as I'm concerned, isn't worth the
> paper it's written on. I cannot emphasise this too strongly: DO NOT
> use it as a source for information on wartime British radar.
>
> Sadly, the generally good website, Radar Pages, uses Watching The
> Skies, for its source for most of its information on British radar.
> Again, where this applies to wartime equipments, it is very
> inaccurate.
>
> CHL is Type 2 only.
> Type 30 is a centimetric radar and not 1.5 metres.
> CD/CHL is an Army version of CHL (slightly different but still on 1.5
> metres) and nothing whatsoever to do with Type 30.
OK, fair enough. Would you be able to write detailed history of Dunnet Head
CHL that we can use on the web site; including which radars were installed
and by who. Opening and closing dates etc. Obviously it's important to get
the story correct.
Nick
Ian Brown
the website of Dunnet Head Tearooms. The URL is:
http://www.dunnethead.co.uk/local/dunnet.htm and there is another page
with information on Burifa Hill.
These pages don't go into great detail, but I am planning a
publication on all the wartime radar stations in Scotland (and
eventually the whole UK), so I'm not going to release everything for
free over the net. I've got to recoup some of the tens of thousands
I've spent on my research somehow!
Nick Catford
"Ian Brown" <ibr...@radararchive.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:31a287ce.0306...@posting.google.com...
Subterranea Britannica is a voluntary organisation with a large number of
people doing their research for free and making it available for free which
I feel is how it should be.
I too have spent tens of thousands of pounds over many years with my time,
petrol, train fares, air fares, photographic materials etc. I'd love to get
some of that money back but I feel it would be totally wrong to charge the
web site. After all it is also a hobby and it's work I want to do and enjoy
doing.
The web site should be available to everyone free of charge. We get 95% of
our new members as a direct result of the web site. Others have suggested
that it should be available to members only who have paid a subscription but
the committee was unanimously against that. In any case it would be
counterproductive as our regular flow of new members would undoubtedly drop
ff to a trickle.
I welcome any input that you feel you are able to contribute but I'm afraid
we are not in a position to pay for information and even if we were I
wouldn't do it.
I always endeavour to check my sources whenever possible. I wasn't aware
that the official government publication 'watching the skies' was such a
poor book. I have seen a number of PRO files that back up some of the things
it says. I will get the references for you.
Nick
ejb
"Nick Catford" wrote
Subterranea Britannica is a voluntary organisation with a large number of
> people doing their research for free and making it available for free
which
> I feel is how it should be.
>
> I too have spent tens of thousands of pounds over many years with my time,
> petrol, train fares, air fares, photographic materials etc. I'd love to
get
> some of that money back but I feel it would be totally wrong to charge the
> web site. After all it is also a hobby and it's work I want to do and
enjoy
> doing.
>
> The web site should be available to everyone free of charge. We get 95% of
> our new members as a direct result of the web site. Others have suggested
> that it should be available to members only who have paid a subscription
but
> the committee was unanimously against that. In any case it would be
> counterproductive as our regular flow of new members would undoubtedly
drop
> ff to a trickle.
>
>
Well said Nick
ejb
ejb
"Ian Brown" < wrote > These pages don't go into great detail, but I am
planning a
> publication on all the wartime radar stations in Scotland (and
> eventually the whole UK), so I'm not going to release everything for
> free over the net. I've got to recoup some of the tens of thousands
> I've spent on my research somehow!
So,you'll not be using any info gleaned "for free" from the Web in your
book,I trust.
ejb
Ian Brown
wasn't asking for payment for information submitted to the Sub Brit
website. There are already a few pages there that I've written and I'm
happy for them to be there, for everyone to access for free.
What I was trying to say was that in order to keep my research ongoing
I need to get some kind of return from it, even though it will never
even begin to cover what such research costs. To do this, and to make
the information more widely available, I'm trying to get a book (or
books) published. This was what I meant when I hoped to get some
return for my research, not payment from the website.
However, this does mean that I'm not prepared to put all my detailed
files on the website. No-one is going to buy a book if all the
information is freely available elsewhere! There is also the fact that
wartime radar, being almost entirely surface-based, is only of fringe
interest to Sub Brit itself. This is why I've never joined the
society: 90% of Sub Brit activities are of no interest to me. I'm
happy to try and answer questions from Sub Brit members about wartime
radar, but I'm not prepared to post what amounts to more than half my
life's worth of research, including thousands of previously
unpublished photos, when most members would not be particularly
interested.
Richard Lamont
He who does the work gets to choose how it's released.
If an author uses a web site as a source, he has to respect any copyright in
that web site's content. While text and images are copyrightable, facts and
ideas are not (under English law). (IANAL.)
The author of a (partly) derivative work may have to respect copyright in an
original work, but only if he reproduces copyrighted content. Such an
obligation occurs regardless of whether the derived work is free or
non-free, unless the copyright material is licensed under terms that
distinguish between the two.
That said, I suspect Ian will be very lucky to find a publisher who will pay
"tens of thousands" (or even thousands) to him for a highly-specialised
book that would probably only sell a few thousand copies at best.
Publishers have to recoup their expenditure too!
--
Richard Lamont
Ian Brown
> book,I trust.
>
> ejb
I most certainly won't. The sort of information available on the web
isn't reliable or accurate. I prefer to use primary sources, not
secondary ones! That is the difference between original research, and
someone who just plagiarises someone else!
Ian Brown
> "tens of thousands" (or even thousands) to him for a highly-specialised
> book that would probably only sell a few thousand copies at best.
> Publishers have to recoup their expenditure too!
I don't expect to find a publisher willing to pay tens of thousands.
As I mentioned in a previous post, any return from a book won't even
begin to cover my expenditure on research, but it will at least give
me some money, which will pay towards the next project. A few hundreds
pounds can pay for a lot of research at the Public Record Office.