British Cities
John Leith
city.
Can anyone here tell me if this is true.
All the best
John Leith
--
Village Austringer
Defender of the Dowager Duchess' Website
http://www.hazelholt.co.uk/
John Leith
<ro...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
>In article <400d69fe....@news.fireflyuk.net>,
>John Leith <nos...@birdy.dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>>When I was a lad I was taught that anywhere with a Cathedral was a
>>city.
>>Can anyone here tell me if this is true.
>
>My current understanding is that the presence of a cathedral is a
>sufficient, but not necessary, condition; some sort of Royal Charter
>also bestow citydom, for example.
That's what I thought, which is why the question "Which 'I' is the
most northerly city in the UK?" on the Weakest Link surprised me. I
had always thought it was Kirkwall.
Innocuous Dave
nos...@birdy.dircon.co.uk (John Leith) wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:54:00 +0000 (UTC), Roger Burton West
> <ro...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
>
>>In article <400d69fe....@news.fireflyuk.net>,
>>John Leith <nos...@birdy.dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>When I was a lad I was taught that anywhere with a Cathedral was a
>>>city.
>>>Can anyone here tell me if this is true.
>>
>>My current understanding is that the presence of a cathedral is a
>>sufficient, but not necessary, condition; some sort of Royal Charter
>>also bestow citydom, for example.
>
> That's what I thought, which is why the question "Which 'I' is the
> most northerly city in the UK?" on the Weakest Link surprised me. I
> had always thought it was Kirkwall.
>
> All the best
> John Leith
So what is it, then?
--
---
Innocuous Dave
Hill House
The Woods
Abthite
(Vaguely suspicious dovecotes a speciality...)
anon...@firedrake.org
>On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:54:00 +0000 (UTC), Roger Burton West
><ro...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
>>In article <400d69fe....@news.fireflyuk.net>,
>>John Leith <nos...@birdy.dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>When I was a lad I was taught that anywhere with a Cathedral was a
>>>city.
>>>Can anyone here tell me if this is true.
>>My current understanding is that the presence of a cathedral is a
>>sufficient, but not necessary, condition; some sort of Royal Charter
>>also bestow citydom, for example.
A cathedral? What's wrong wi' a God-fearing Minster then?
>That's what I thought, which is why the question "Which 'I' is the
>most northerly city in the UK?" on the Weakest Link surprised me. I
>had always thought it was Kirkwall.
Not having known 'I' to be a city, I don't follow this, but if the
requirement for cityhood or citydom or whatever it ought to be called were
a Bishop, that would rather make any proper Scot debar any Scottish place
from being one, wouldn't it?
(But is Orkney part of Scotland? Hmmm.)
Can one have a cathedral without a bishop? One can have a bishop without a
cathedral, but I thought that it didn't work the other way about.
And is there a cathedral in Croydon, and is it a city yet? And what about
Southwark? That has a Bishop, and a cathedral but I don't think it is a
city.
Beetle (lives in a city-and-county, with *two* CoE bishops but only one CoE
cathedral)
Cartographer, Bombardier, Weather Witch and Village Storekeeper
Selling atonal apples, and amplified heat, and Pressed Rat's
collection of dog-legs and feet. Coffee mornings a speciality.
John Leith
wrote:
>Not having known 'I' to be a city...
The inital of the answer was meant to be 'I', in this case for
Inverness.
>(But is Orkney part of Scotland? Hmmm.)
Good, question, we can't really make up our minds. Here is a small
story to illustrate how we feel.
The inspector of registers was up in Orkney and visiting the registrar
on Hoy which is an island between the mainland of Orkney and the
mainland of Britain.
As the inspector was leaving they were chatting outside the house and
for something to say he pointed to the hills of Caithness and said
"Is that the mainland?"
The registrar replied
"No, that's Scotland the mainland is the other way."
Innocuous Dave
anon...@firedrake.org enquired:
> Can one have a cathedral without a bishop? One can have a bishop
> without a cathedral, but I thought that it didn't work the other way
> about.
>
As I understand the term, "Cathedral" relates to the "Cathedra" or
Bishop's throne, held within. So I don't think you can have a cathedral
sans bish (unless there's a civil war on, or a reformation - things like
that tend to bugger up the running order somewhat)
>
> Beetle (lives in a city-and-county, with *two* CoE bishops but only
> one CoE cathedral)
And a Roman Catholic one, to complete the set.
anon...@firedrake.org
>On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:24:25 +0000 (UTC), anon...@firedrake.org
>wrote:
>>(But is Orkney part of Scotland? Hmmm.)
>Good, question, we can't really make up our minds. Here is a small
>story to illustrate how we feel.
Actually I got that wrong, didn't I, whether it is part of Scotland
presumably wouldn't be relevant if the question was about the UK. So is
Orkney part of the United Kingdom? :-)
[snip fine incident]
>"No, that's Scotland the mainland is the other way."
Very proper.
Beetle
anon...@firedrake.org
>In intercept news:20040121132425....@firedrake.org, subject
>anon...@firedrake.org enquired:
>
>> Can one have a cathedral without a bishop? One can have a bishop
>> without a cathedral, but I thought that it didn't work the other way
>> about.
>As I understand the term, "Cathedral" relates to the "Cathedra" or
>Bishop's throne, held within. So I don't think you can have a cathedral
>sans bish (unless there's a civil war on, or a reformation - things like
>that tend to bugger up the running order somewhat)
Along with most of the rest of what is going on, yes.
>> Beetle (lives in a city-and-county, with *two* CoE bishops but only
>> one CoE cathedral)
>And a Roman Catholic one, to complete the set.
I don't count them, there's no telling what might happen if I did.
Beetle
anon...@firedrake.org
>In article <Xns9477976606...@195.8.68.207>,
>Innocuous Dave <NoHa...@HillHouse.Thanks> wrote:
>>> Beetle (lives in a city-and-county, with *two* CoE bishops but only
>>> one CoE cathedral)
>>And a Roman Catholic one, to complete the set.
>
>You have to watch those, or they metastasise like the one in
>Liverpool. Very spiky.
I doubt that the Spam Cathedral is ever likely to do anything more worrying
than deliquesce.
Beetle
Brian Howlett
> On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:24:25 +0000 (UTC), anon...@firedrake.org
> wrote:
>
>> Not having known 'I' to be a city...
>
> The inital of the answer was meant to be 'I', in this case for
> Inverness.
>
[snip]
Inverness only became a city in 2000, but it's cathedral, which was
built between 1866 and 1869, does not have a spire, so Inverness is not
classed as a cathedral city.
For them as has web access <URL:http://www.invernesscathedral.co.uk>.
The former Bishop's Palace now houses the cinema where I ply one of my
trades...
Hmmm... I've still got a Super 8 projector and screen somewhere - does
the village need one of these new-fangled magic lantern shows?
--
Brian Howlett
-------------------------------
Heart of gold, nerves of steel,
knob of butter...
anon...@firedrake.org
>On 21 Jan, nos...@birdy.dircon.co.uk (John Leith) wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:24:25 +0000 (UTC), anon...@firedrake.org
>> wrote:
>>> Not having known 'I' to be a city...
>> The inital of the answer was meant to be 'I', in this case for
>> Inverness.
>Inverness only became a city in 2000, but it's cathedral, which was
>built between 1866 and 1869, does not have a spire, so Inverness is not
>classed as a cathedral city.
That's interesting. If that is the criterion, nor is Bristol, because the
cathedral in Bristol does not have a spire; it has two rather truncated
towers instead.
Beetle
Jen Birren
> I doubt that the Spam Cathedral is ever likely to do anything more
> worrying than deliquesce.
Is that a new measurement of awfulness? "Well, it's better than a
deliquescing Spam cathedral, but worse than a slap round the face with a
wet fish. Say three-quarters of a poke in the eye."
Jen
--
hotmail account is now a spamtrap. Use jenbirren (at) yahoo (dot) co
(dot) uk
anon...@firedrake.org
>anon...@firedrake.org wrote:
>> I doubt that the Spam Cathedral is ever likely to do anything more
>> worrying than deliquesce.
>Is that a new measurement of awfulness? "Well, it's better than a
>deliquescing Spam cathedral, but worse than a slap round the face with a
>wet fish. Say three-quarters of a poke in the eye."
:-))
Not so new, though: I think the Spam Cathedral is mid- to late-sixties
construction.
Certainly no earlier, though!
Matthew Francis
<ro...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
>
>Well, you can have a temporarily bishless throne - I don't think it
>works like monarchy, you are allowed a gap between 'em. But in theory
>you have a Bishop-shaped hole associated with each cathedral...
>
What if the new one doesn't fit?
Oh no, that's a silly question. Obviuously they either choose their
Bish's to fit, or else trim them. Yes?
--
Matthew Francis
-------------------------
ABTH Village Guinea Pig
Paul B.
What or where is the Spam Cathedral? I'm assuming it's a nickname, but
where is it? And why named after the versatile tinned meat product?
Au Res.,
Paul
--
http://www.efbenson.co.uk/
http://www.paulbines.co.uk
http://www.convergent-diversity.co.uk/
anon...@firedrake.org
>Asks in all innocence, due to me being genuinely puzzled.
>What or where is the Spam Cathedral? I'm assuming it's a nickname, but
>where is it? And why named after the versatile tinned meat product?
The Roman Catholic pro-Cathedral of SS Peter and Paul in Pembroke Road,
Clifton, Bristol, is made of pinkish lumpy concrete with windows that can't
be seen from almost anywhere outside. It is of a shape entirely consistent
with it having been turned out of a tin of the right sort of shape and then
had bits carved off it and taken away to be fried; it has a tall thin thing
sticking out of the top, which might be the implement with which the
carving was done.
It does look remarkably like spam in some lights.
Inside, it has a large number of wooden spikes hanging from the high
ceiling to improve the accoustic (which was dire before they were put in).
The effect is not dissimilar to sitting inside the open mouth of a shark.
One day it will close its jaws and start to chew...
Brian Howlett
> In article <b4667774...@btinternet.com>, Brian Howlett
> <Brian_...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Hmmm... I've still got a Super 8 projector and screen somewhere -
>> does the village need one of these new-fangled magic lantern shows?
>
> This will surely destroy the morals of the Youth of the Village...
> hang on, the Youth of the Village is the Heroic Village Lad and he's
> not here anyway. Yes, why not?
>
Right, then all I need is suitable premises to set up the projector and
screen...
<Checks Village map>
Hmmm... Perhaps a tent on the village green? Or maybe a suitable place
could be found for a peppercorn rent? I've got some peppercorns...
It doesn't need to be totally light-proof - in fact so long as the sun
isn't shining directly into the patrons' eyes we shouldn't have too much
trouble. No need for sound-proofing either; that new-fangled Dolby (R)
stereo stuff doesn't fit on Super 8 film.
After that, all that's needed is to invite villagers to the World
Premiere of "That Dark and Grainy Film I shot In Our Driveway on the
Xmas I Got The Camera".
Now then, admission charges - Adults and Children - 1 jam jar each.
(Adults - full, Children - Under 12 empty, under 16, half full).
During the interval, my lovely assistant will walk backwards among you,
selling jam...
--
Brian Howlett
--------------------------------
Village Magic Lantern Shows R Us
Jenny Radcliffe
> In <b4667774...@btinternet.com> Brian Howlett wrote:
> > On 21 Jan, nos...@birdy.dircon.co.uk (John Leith) wrote:
> > > anon...@firedrake.org wrote:
> > > > Not having known 'I' to be a city...
> > > The inital of the answer was meant to be 'I', in this case for
> > > Inverness.
> > Inverness only became a city in 2000, but it's cathedral, which
> > was built between 1866 and 1869, does not have a spire, so
> > Inverness is not classed as a cathedral city.
> That's interesting. If that is the criterion, nor is Bristol,
> because the cathedral in Bristol does not have a spire; it has two
> rather truncated towers instead.
No, nor Durham, nor, IIRC, Gloucester.
It seems that the term "cathedral city", if Brian is right, is something
significantly *less* than the sum of its parts ...
Jenny
Brian Howlett
> <anon...@firedrake.org> wrote
[snip]
>> That's interesting. If that is the criterion, nor is Bristol,
>> because the cathedral in Bristol does not have a spire; it has two
>> rather truncated towers instead.
>
> No, nor Durham, nor, IIRC, Gloucester.
>
> It seems that the term "cathedral city", if Brian is right, is
> something significantly *less* than the sum of its parts ...
>
I can't quote chapter and verse, but the much smaller Elgin, about 30
odd miles east of Inverness *is* classed as a city, and its cathedral is
in ruins. It did have a spire, though...
Jenny Radcliffe
> > > because the cathedral in Bristol does not have a spire; it has
> > > two rather truncated towers instead.
> > No, nor Durham, nor, IIRC, Gloucester.
> > It seems that the term "cathedral city", if Brian is right, is
> > something significantly *less* than the sum of its parts ...
> I can't quote chapter and verse, but the much smaller Elgin, about
> 30 odd miles east of Inverness *is* classed as a city, and its
> cathedral is in ruins. It did have a spire, though...
Er, certainly - but that doesn't mean that having a spire is the criterion,
does it?
My understanding has always been that originally, bishop => cathedral =>
city, but that this had long-since ceased to be the case, and that now the
Royal Charter jobby is required. As with the assorted places like Inverness
and Brighton-Hove which were awarded city status for the
millenniennienniennium.
And then, well, Bishops now are tied to dioceses (that *cannot* be the
plural ...) and not to cities, and I can't quite remember where cathedrals
come in. That is to say, there is a Bishop of Durham and Durham Cathedral
and the Diocese of Durham and Durham is a city, and these things are rather
crucially related. But then one has the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds and Ripon
Abbey, and the Diocese of Ripon and Leeds - and Leeds is, I think, a City,
but I don't think that Ripon is.
Then again, there is a Bishop of Liverpool, and a Cathedral of Liverpool,
and a Diocese of Liverpool, and Liverpool is a city - but within that
Diocese, there is also the Bishop Suffragan of Warrington. I'm not sure
whether he has a Cathedra of his own, though.
Erm.
Clear as mud, the whole dam' thing. The only reason I know so much is that
said Bish of Ripon & Leeds' youngest son's a friend of mine and talks about
such things, and sometimes I listen. Said Bish was previously said Bishop
Suffragan of Warrington. He's a very nice bloke, and when we had dinner at
his house during a stag party went and delved in his library to look up St
Chad, St Cuthbert and their brother Cedd for us. As well as appreciating my
cooking.
So.
Now that I've clarified the debate, I should go to bed ...
Jenny ;)
Matthew Francis
<je...@durge.org> wrote:
><anon...@firedrake.org> wrote
>> That's interesting. If that is the criterion, nor is Bristol,
>> because the cathedral in Bristol does not have a spire; it has two
>> rather truncated towers instead.
>
>No, nor Durham, nor, IIRC, Gloucester.
>
It's difficult to tell with Gloucester because - like the Avonmouth
Bridge - it has been engulfed in scaffolding for several years. But
the general shape of the thing does suggest that it's a tower rather
than a spire.
Jenny Radcliffe
> "Jenny Radcliffe" <je...@durge.org> wrote:
> > <anon...@firedrake.org> wrote
> > > That's interesting. If that is the criterion, nor is Bristol,
> > > because the cathedral in Bristol does not have a spire; it has
> > > two rather truncated towers instead.
> > No, nor Durham, nor, IIRC, Gloucester.
> It's difficult to tell with Gloucester because - like the
> Avonmouth Bridge - it has been engulfed in scaffolding for
> several years. But the general shape of the thing does suggest
> that it's a tower rather than a spire.
Yes, I'm not sure I've ever seen it *without* the scaffolding. But the
*quantity* of scaffolding has changed, and sometimes there's been little
enough of it that you can see it's definitely a tower underneath.
Y'know, considering how well I know the place, I really ought to know what's
going on and why it's taking so long ...
Jenny
Andrea
> In <bup5kk$1h8$1...@sparta.btinternet.com> Paul
>
> >Asks in all innocence, due to me being genuinely puzzled.
> >What or where is the Spam Cathedral? I'm assuming it's a nickname,
but
> >where is it? And why named after the versatile tinned meat
product?
>
> The Roman Catholic pro-Cathedral of SS Peter and Paul in Pembroke
Road,
> Clifton, Bristol, is made of pinkish lumpy concrete with windows
that can't
> be seen from almost anywhere outside. It is of a shape entirely
consistent
> with it having been turned out of a tin of the right sort of shape
and then
> had bits carved off it and taken away to be fried; it has a tall
thin thing
> sticking out of the top, which might be the implement with which the
> carving was done.
this intrigued me so I went to look for images,
http://www.bristol-city.gov.uk/ImageLibraryApplication/image_library.html?image=cd-131l&caption=Clifton+Roman+Catholic+Cathedral+was+consecrated+in+1973.+Its+bold+design+has+won+architectural+prizes+and+it+is+a+successful+venue+for+musical+and+choral+performances.&heading=Churches+Chapels+and+Graveyards&vi_id=5&photoYear=1989
will let you see what it looks like. Remarkably spam like.
Hiya btw, yes I'm back :-)
Andrea
sorry beetle for sending this direct at first, still tweaking setup
:-)
Elizabeth Fusina
> Hiya btw, yes I'm back :-)
>
> Andrea
>
> sorry beetle for sending this direct at first, still tweaking setup
> :-)
Welcome back!!! I was just thinking about you. How is everything going?
Elizabeth
Matthew Francis
<je...@durge.org> wrote:
>Yes, I'm not sure I've ever seen it *without* the scaffolding. But the
>*quantity* of scaffolding has changed, and sometimes there's been little
>enough of it that you can see it's definitely a tower underneath.
>
>Y'know, considering how well I know the place, I really ought to know what's
>going on and why it's taking so long ...
>
I live just twenty miles down the road from it and I don't know... I
see it most Saturdays, although I haven't been within inspection range
for quite a while now. The fact of the matter is that as you head down
Westgate Street the number of interesting shops gets progressively
less and less interesting, so I don't often have cause to go down
there.
Bookends used to be quite good, but I shopped there as much for the
staff and the incidental music and (more particularly) the staff as
the books.
Not that I ever bought a member of staff, you understand...
Andrea
"Elizabeth Fusina" <fus...@radix.net> wrote...
going?
>
an e-mail thing, though recently my e-mail thingie wouldnt let it
download. But now I have a news account again so hence my being able
to reply (I never could find that thing I had to put at the top of
posts to add to a thread)
At the moment I've had time to sort things as I'm off work (again)
this time with shingles.
Andrea
anon...@firedrake.org
>At the moment I've had time to sort things as I'm off work (again)
>this time with shingles.
oh *no*! That's Too Bad! I hope it isn't being too horribly painful.
Elizabeth Fusina
> In <bv68hu$nrjm7$1...@ID-199489.news.uni-berlin.de> Andrea wrote:
>
> >At the moment I've had time to sort things as I'm off work (again)
> >this time with shingles.
>
> oh *no*! That's Too Bad! I hope it isn't being too horribly painful.
Oh, definitely seconded.
And I am going to be joining the ranks of the teachers brigade (in the
too young for school lot). I just have to attend the last class and pick
up my certificate.
Elizabeth
Jenny Radcliffe
> "Jenny Radcliffe" <je...@durge.org> wrote:
> > Yes, I'm not sure I've ever seen it *without* the scaffolding.
> > But the *quantity* of scaffolding has changed, and sometimes
> > there's been little enough of it that you can see it's
> > definitely a tower underneath.
> > Y'know, considering how well I know the place, I really ought to
> > know what's going on and why it's taking so long ...
> I live just twenty miles down the road from it and I don't know...
> I see it most Saturdays, although I haven't been within inspection
> range for quite a while now.
I used to live 15 miles away, and to be in Gloucester weekly. Ah, well, it's
always the places you're nearest to that you never visit, isn't it?
> The fact of the matter is that as you head down Westgate Street
> the number of interesting shops gets progressively less and less
> interesting, so I don't often have cause to go down there.
I rarely shopped there anyway - my mother spent her Bright Youth in Bristol,
so knew it better, and we went there instead. It's hardly further, from
Dursley, and, well, there's a lot more there.
> Bookends used to be quite good, but I shopped there as much for
> the staff and the incidental music and (more particularly) the
> staff as the books.
> Not that I ever bought a member of staff, you understand...
Good ...
Jenny ;)
mjri...@earthlink.net
wrote:
>In <bup5kk$1h8$1...@sparta.btinternet.com> Paul
>
>>Asks in all innocence, due to me being genuinely puzzled.
>>What or where is the Spam Cathedral? I'm assuming it's a nickname, but
>>where is it? And why named after the versatile tinned meat product?
>
>The Roman Catholic pro-Cathedral of SS Peter and Paul in Pembroke Road,
>Clifton, Bristol, is made of pinkish lumpy concrete with windows that can't
>be seen from almost anywhere outside. It is of a shape entirely consistent
>with it having been turned out of a tin of the right sort of shape and then
>had bits carved off it and taken away to be fried; it has a tall thin thing
>sticking out of the top, which might be the implement with which the
>carving was done.
>
>It does look remarkably like spam in some lights.
>
>Inside, it has a large number of wooden spikes hanging from the high
>ceiling to improve the accoustic (which was dire before they were put in).
>The effect is not dissimilar to sitting inside the open mouth of a shark.
>One day it will close its jaws and start to chew...
>
>
When the roof starts to close in on you, just close your eyes and
murmur a devoit act of contrition and you'll be fine. Nice to know
that if I ever visit Bristol, it'll be easy to find a place for Sunday
mass, just look for the lunchmeat.
Jackie
mjri...@earthlink.net
Thanks for the link. I'm not certain if it's the ugliest church I've
seen but then I've seen some pretty ugly churches.
Jackie
mjri...@earthlink.net
Ouch! Many sympathies, that is one nasty ailment. Hope you feel
better soon, and able to strangle the little darling that shared his
chickenpox virus with you.
Jackie
>