###MORE OF SEEBER'S VERY REVEALING STATEMENTS!!
Ted McMillan
100...@shell1.aracnet.com>,
"Theodore M. Seeber" <see...@aracnet.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Ted McMillan wrote:
>
> > > > > > >> On Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:50:34 -0700, "Theodore M. Seeber"
> > > > > > >> <see...@aracnet.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >You Protestants are the non-Christians, having rejected
> > Christ
> > > > in your
> > > > > > >> >Protestant Rebelion.
> >
> > Again, here we see that Rome hasn't changed. That was the same
> > language used when massacreing the Protestants.
>
> And it was also the same language King James used when massacreing the
> Irish.
>
Well then when we bring up the crimes you all did in the past, you tell
us that it was just the primitiveness and barbarism of the times.
Therefore are you all the same today? Christians don't lie, but if you
think they do as you have labored to prove and demonstrated so oft, how
can your victims reading your posts consent to unite with you all and
believe your promises of peace, prosperity and safety as the Germans
did?
> > I wrote:
> > > > HEY FOLKS!
> > > >
> > > > For one thing, Christians don't lie.
> > >
> > > Really? Then why didn't Christ return in 1834?
> >
> > The same reason why the Apostles lied by telling the world that
Christ
> > was going to set up His eternal kingdom in their day and free the
Jews
> > from the Romans!
>
> Like any of the apostles actually said that.
>
Yes, the Apostles REALLY said that to the HILT! That was one reason
why they ran away and forsook Christ. Didn't they know what would have
happened to Him prior? NO! They had the same misconceptions as the
Jews of that time.
> > That was not lying: that was not a deliberate intent to deceive
unlike
> > here.
>
> Then why did Miller retire as a millionaire?
>
Wonderful proof that he lied? Maybe he should have given all of that
money to you? How rich is the Pope? Did indulgences have anything to
do with his wealth?
> > > > Protestants themselves quoted that scripture even from the
> > beginning of
> > > > the Reformation.
> > >
> > > Yep. But they didn't attach the correct meaning to it.
> >
Proof! Proof! Proof! Please become a tinfoil head! Then your mind
would be out of the Dark Ages.
> > The correct meaning that Christ followed?
>
> In the language that Christ Spoke. With the culture that Christ
assumed.
So then where was the beginnings of His global government, his
infiltration of churches, his starting of covert secret societies and
orders, and His affiliation with political figures and the state?
>
> > When the Disciples found
> > others teaching in the name of Christ, they infiltrated that other
> > group and then started to compel them to join under a bureaucracy?
>
> End of Acts Chapter 4, yes.
>
Proof! Proof! Become a tinfoil hat head for your sake! What was the
name of the secret orders that infiltrated government and sought for
power and wealth? You all have names for your orders here, what names
did they come up with?
> > If
> > they didn't agree, Christ's Disciples massacred them?
>
> Begining of Acts Chapter 5, yes.
>
Proof! Proof! Become a Christian and wear a tinfoil hat!
The scriptures showed that the church WAS persecuted and not the other
way around like you all. The scripture they told the world said that
the righteous shall suffer persecution. They did not write that the
Christians will persecute. That why Christ gave the Beauttitudes and
told Christians to turn the other cheek and go twain in miles. Easy to
forget those simple lessons, huh?
Christ was the one who even said that the day will come for Christians
when others that will kill them will think that they are doing God
service.
> > Christ's
> > Disciples set up militia orders and killed separation of church and
> > state?
>
> Not valid. Separation of Church and State is a 20th century idea, a
> perversion of a 18th century ideal. The doctrine of separation of
Church
> and State is not Biblical, and did not exist until the Supreme Court
of
> the United States invented it in the 1920s.
>
Proof! Proof! Christ and His Disciples went right along with
Separation of Church and state. Christ met with Herod and Herod was
glad to see Him. Christ could have worked a miracle and gotten buddy-
buddy with Herod as you all do without a problem, but Christ didn't.
> > Christ's Disciples became political and linked with the Roman
> > government?
>
> As did all other religions of the time.
>
Christ's Disciples DID NOT become political and linked with the Roman
government. Your statements are the same despot onliners with no proof!
> > Christ's Disciples persecuted?
>
> Persecuted and were persecuted. It's not often that you find a human
> institution that, upon gaining power, does not take revenge against
it's
> former persecuters.
>
You found that with the Protestants. They didn't give you all your
just deserts even since the French Revolution. And no, you are in the
habit of not proving what you state. Show the specific chapter and
verse where they became like you all and persecuted.
> > > Which is why instead of ONE Church, there are now 30,000+
> > denominations
> > > serving a small minority of ex-christians.
> >
> > And why are strange people who are ecumenical around in those
churches
> > telling them what Bill Clinton told the world: "DIVERSITY IS THE
> > SECRET OF OUR STRENGTH!" and urged them to have many different
> > confusing opinions and to verbalize them everywhere?
>
> To gain power.
>
Well then why fault the Protestant system for being bad, when it is
already heavily infiltrated with you guys? You all had nothing to do
with it? You all did not interfere? Did you all not know that the
Protestants wanted to show evidence for their claims? The best way to
demonstrate the truth was to leave it alone and let it come to fruition
to be compared with Catholic countries. We have compared them even
with your interference! There is NO comparison!
> > Why did Alberto
> > Rivera tell us that Rome created the Mormon Church and the Jehovah's
> > Witnesses group?
>
> To gain power.
>
Despot one-liners! Is that why you all murdered the Serbs?
> > It is funny, because you yourself named those same
> > two groups quite skillfully. After Dr. Rivera said that, I studied
> > their beliefs and found out that they are globalistic.
>
> As is Christ himself. To be not globalistic is to be exclusionary.
>
Globalists were all political. Which globalist do you know of who had
Christ's abilities for performing miracles would not have done so in
order to impress Herod instead of ignoring him like Christ did? Jerry
Falwell is political. What would he have done if he met up with an
absolute ruler like Herod? There is a clear difference.
> > > snip more irrelevant crap that my despot judgments will naturally
conclude!
> >
> > To a religion that defends lying, how can I expect a different
> > assessment?
>
> From my point of view, you're the one who's defending the big lie
that God
> wants his sons to be divided.
>
I did not say that nor do I accept the lies of a despot. I said that
they be one, but not under a despot bureaucracy to give up their
liberties, properties and understandings of truth.
> > > > > The answer is simple: Those who claim those things, are not
> > living in
> > > > > the Truth of Christ, and in fact, do not understand OR know
> > Christ.
> >
> > Well then since the scriptures tell us that it is impossible for
Christ
> > to lie, why not point blank tell us whether or not Rome is the
same, is
> > struggling to take over the world, is conspiring against the
> > Protestants, still is preparing to massacre and persecute again and
has
> > her army infiltrated into all the churches and governments?
>
> Why should I confirm the lie of a paranoid delusionist who seeks to
> separate Christ, and indeed humanity, into separate groups and thus
> promote warfare?
Because we need to confirm some more that you are the reincarnated
despots! We are here to show the colors of each. We are here to see a
religion that defends lying, and then calls Ellen White a liar and a
fake. We need to become like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln as
other paranoid delusionists so that we can go to heaven with them
also! We need to demonstrate that we are fools for Christ with the
tinfoil hats who will bear witness against the Children of the
Antichrist through evidence.
> One wonders if the Anti-Ted is an arms dealer, sowing discord to both
> sides in hopes of making money off of the fight.
>
Just check what the Ustashis did, and we can only conclude that you
will think that about us. The evidence and discussion has left
naturally. Just tell us that you couldn't answer!
> > > No. It isn't. And that's why your fake liberty can never stand.
> > >
> > > Liberty is useless, and has only created schism.
> >
> > GREAT!! LET'S TAKE AWAY LIBERTY SO THAT WE CAN SEE THE BENEFITS
WITHOUT
> > IT AND START THE TEST ON YOUR CHURCH!
>
> The main benefit without it: No war, cooperation replacing
competition,
> no divisions among mankind, and the realization of Christ's prayer:
That
> all men may be one. (John 17:21)
>
DID YOU HEAR ME??!! Let's see the benefit of it. We start with YOUR
CHURCH!! The one who puts forth this principle should be the first
against whom the experiment be tested!
> The real anti-christ is the one who stands against Christ.
>
WRONG! Often the word "ANTI" does not mean AGAINST biblically. It
often meant "in place of" as in the anti-popes that existed during the
Great Schism where the Catholic Church took a long time to deal with it-
-FAR LONGER than it took you guys to deal with the postings I made
about the Ustashis!
Ted
--
For the work finished!
Ted McMillan, Owner
Truth of Adventism Defended Forum
truth_of_adv...@egroups.com
Many Thanks to those who helped put up the website!
THE TRUTH OF ADVENTISM DEFENDED WEBSITE!
http://www2.50megs.com/tmac1238/home.htm
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Theodore M. Seeber
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009200912490.25971-
> 100...@shell1.aracnet.com>,
> "Theodore M. Seeber" <see...@aracnet.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Ted McMillan wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > >> On Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:50:34 -0700, "Theodore M. Seeber"
> > > > > > > >> <see...@aracnet.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> >You Protestants are the non-Christians, having rejected
> > > Christ
> > > > > in your
> > > > > > > >> >Protestant Rebelion.
> > >
> > > Again, here we see that Rome hasn't changed. That was the same
> > > language used when massacreing the Protestants.
> >
> > And it was also the same language King James used when massacreing the
> > Irish.
>
> Well then when we bring up the crimes you all did in the past, you tell
> us that it was just the primitiveness and barbarism of the times.
> Therefore are you all the same today?
Which only proves that the whole method you're using to determine history
is invalid.
> Christians don't lie, but if you
> think they do as you have labored to prove and demonstrated so oft
Was Jimmy Swaggert Christian? How about Oral Roberts? I can name
thousands of self-proclaimed Christians that lie quite often.
>, how
> can your victims reading your posts consent to unite with you all and
> believe your promises of peace, prosperity and safety as the Germans
> did?
I've never talked to the Germans. I consider them to be a bigoted people,
like the adventists.
> > > > Really? Then why didn't Christ return in 1834?
> > >
> > > The same reason why the Apostles lied by telling the world that
> Christ
> > > was going to set up His eternal kingdom in their day and free the
> Jews
> > > from the Romans!
> >
> > Like any of the apostles actually said that.
>
> Yes, the Apostles REALLY said that to the HILT!
No they didn't.
> That was one reason
> why they ran away and forsook Christ. Didn't they know what would have
> happened to Him prior? NO! They had the same misconceptions as the
> Jews of that time.
Really? Then why did they wait? Why didn't they scatter and leave
Jerusalem?
Seems to me you don't know how to read the Bible any better than you read
history.
> > > That was not lying: that was not a deliberate intent to deceive
> unlike
> > > here.
> >
> > Then why did Miller retire as a millionaire?
>
> Wonderful proof that he lied?
Nope, just proof that he profited from a deliberate intent to deceive.
> Maybe he should have given all of that
> money to you?
No, he shouldn't have collected it in the first place.
> How rich is the Pope?
The Pope takes the most extreme vow of poverty in the Roman Catholic
Church: He owns nothing, not even the clothes on his back.
> Did indulgences have anything to
> do with his wealth?
Yes, in a way: By living in a vow of poverty, he gains indulgences for
his personal soul in heaven, for as scripture states:
Luke.6
[20] And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye
poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
> Proof! Proof! Proof! Please become a tinfoil head! Then your mind
> would be out of the Dark Ages.
And into the New Age? No thanks. I saw what happened to those who
followed Doe to the promised flying saucer (reference to Heaven's Gate,
another Adventist cult that killed people).
> > > The correct meaning that Christ followed?
> >
> > In the language that Christ Spoke. With the culture that Christ
> > assumed.
>
> So then where was the beginnings of His global government, his
> infiltration of churches, his starting of covert secret societies and
> orders, and His affiliation with political figures and the state?
Right here:
Matt.3
[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matt.4
[17] From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the
kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matt.5
[3] Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
[10] Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for
theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and
shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of
heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called
great in the kingdom of heaven.
[20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the
righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into
the kingdom of heaven.
Matt.6
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Matt.7
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.
Matt.8
[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and
shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of
heaven.
[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer
darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt.10
[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matt.11
[11] Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath
not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is
least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
[12] And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven
suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Matt.13
[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know
the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven
is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[31] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven
is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his
field:
[33] Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like
unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till
the whole was leavened.
[44] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a
field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof
goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
[45] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking
goodly pearls:
[47] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into
the sea, and gathered of every kind:
[52] Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed
unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder,
which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Matt.16
[19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matt.18
[1] At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the
greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
[3] And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as
little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[4] Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the
same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
[23] Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which
would take account of his servants.
Matt.19
[12] For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's
womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and
there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of
heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
[14] But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come
unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
[23] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a
rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matt.20
[1] For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder,
which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
Matt.22
[2] The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a
marriage for his son,
Matt.23
[13] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up
the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves,
neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matt.25
[1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which
took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
[14] For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country,
who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Luke.11
[2] And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in
heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in
heaven, so in earth.
[17] But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided
against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a
house falleth.
2Tim.4
[18] And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve
me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev.11
[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven,
saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev.12
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and
strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the
accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God
day and night.
Why do you fight against the Kingdom of Heaven?
> > > When the Disciples found
> > > others teaching in the name of Christ, they infiltrated that other
> > > group and then started to compel them to join under a bureaucracy?
> >
> > End of Acts Chapter 4, yes.
>
> Proof! Proof!
Acts Chapter 4 is proof:
Acts 4:
[32] And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one
soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed
was his own; but they had all things common.
[33] And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of
the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
[34] Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were
possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the
things that were sold,
[35] And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made
unto every man according as he had need.
[36] And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is,
being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country
of Cyprus,
[37] Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the
apostles' feet.
> Become a tinfoil hat head for your sake! What was the
> name of the secret orders that infiltrated government and sought for
> power and wealth?
The Apostles.
> You all have names for your orders here, what names
> did they come up with?
The Way.
> > > If
> > > they didn't agree, Christ's Disciples massacred them?
> >
> > Begining of Acts Chapter 5, yes.
>
> Proof! Proof!
No tinfoil hat involved, but more to the point:
Acts 5:
Acts.5
[1] But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a
possession,
[2] And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and
brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
[3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to
the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
[4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was
it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine
heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
[5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and
great fear came on all them that heard these things.
[6] And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried
him.
[7] And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not
knowing what was done, came in.
[8] And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so
much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
[9] Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to
tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried
thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
[10] Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the
ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her
forth, buried her by her husband.
[11] And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard
these things.
[12] And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought
among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
[13] And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people
magnified them.
[14] And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men
and women.)
> The scriptures showed that the church WAS persecuted and not the other
> way around like you all.
Then why were Ananaias and Sapphira killed?
> The scripture they told the world said that
> the righteous shall suffer persecution. They did not write that the
> Christians will persecute. That why Christ gave the Beauttitudes and
> told Christians to turn the other cheek and go twain in miles. Easy to
> forget those simple lessons, huh?
Those lessons do not fit in with Acts Chapter 5.
> Christ was the one who even said that the day will come for Christians
> when others that will kill them will think that they are doing God
> service.
And that came very early, apparently, for it is recorded in Acts Chapter 5
that two were killed, by the Holy Ghost himself.
> > > Christ's
> > > Disciples set up militia orders and killed separation of church and
> > > state?
> >
> > Not valid. Separation of Church and State is a 20th century idea, a
> > perversion of a 18th century ideal. The doctrine of separation of
> Church
> > and State is not Biblical, and did not exist until the Supreme Court
> of
> > the United States invented it in the 1920s.
>
> Proof! Proof!
You can read the court documents as easily as I can.
> Christ and His Disciples went right along with
> Separation of Church and state.
Prove that!
> Christ met with Herod and Herod was
> glad to see Him. Christ could have worked a miracle and gotten buddy-
> buddy with Herod as you all do without a problem, but Christ didn't.
Why should Christ go against the principles of the Kingdom of Heaven to
encourage the Kingdom of Herod?
> > > Christ's Disciples became political and linked with the Roman
> > > government?
> >
> > As did all other religions of the time.
>
> Christ's Disciples DID NOT become political and linked with the Roman
> government.
Oh? Then why was the symbol of Constantine the Cross?
> Your statements are the same despot onliners with no proof!
Rather, I've posted SCRIPTURE, the same that you claim to believe in, yet
deny with your words, proving yourself to be the anti-christ.
> > > Christ's Disciples persecuted?
> >
> > Persecuted and were persecuted. It's not often that you find a human
> > institution that, upon gaining power, does not take revenge against
> > it's
> > former persecuters.
>
> You found that with the Protestants. They didn't give you all your
> just deserts even since the French Revolution. And no, you are in the
> habit of not proving what you state. Show the specific chapter and
> verse where they became like you all and persecuted.
The Letter of Constantine in 400 A.D. Or did you think that History
stopped with the death of the last Apostle?
> > > > Which is why instead of ONE Church, there are now 30,000+
> > > denominations
> > > > serving a small minority of ex-christians.
> > >
> > > And why are strange people who are ecumenical around in those
> churches
> > > telling them what Bill Clinton told the world: "DIVERSITY IS THE
> > > SECRET OF OUR STRENGTH!" and urged them to have many different
> > > confusing opinions and to verbalize them everywhere?
> >
> > To gain power.
>
> Well then why fault the Protestant system for being bad, when it is
> already heavily infiltrated with you guys?
Bill Clinton is not Catholic, nor is he of the Kingdom of Heaven.
> You all had nothing to do
> with it? You all did not interfere?
Why should we care what rebels do to other rebels?
> Did you all not know that the
> Protestants wanted to show evidence for their claims?
Who cares? Protestant evidence is already corrupt in my mind, because
they protested against the authority of Christ.
> The best way to
> demonstrate the truth was to leave it alone and let it come to fruition
> to be compared with Catholic countries.
You mean, how the Protestant UN has been pushing abortion to ruin the
ecconomy of Catholic Countries?
> Despot one-liners! Is that why you all murdered the Serbs?
Prove that I had anything to do with the Serbs at all. I've lived in
Oregon all my life, have never been outside of it for more than two weeks
at a time.
> > > It is funny, because you yourself named those same
> > > two groups quite skillfully. After Dr. Rivera said that, I studied
> > > their beliefs and found out that they are globalistic.
> >
> > As is Christ himself. To be not globalistic is to be exclusionary.
>
> Globalists were all political.
As was Christ, in trying to create the Kingdom of Heaven.
> > From my point of view, you're the one who's defending the big lie
> that God
> > wants his sons to be divided.
>
> I did not say that
You support Protestantism, which claims that alternate denominations are
valid (they are not).
> I said that
> they be one, but not under a despot bureaucracy to give up their
> liberties, properties and understandings of truth.
Liberty and property?
Shall we look at Acts Chapter 4 again:
[32] And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one
soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed
was his own; but they had all things common.
[33] And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of
the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
[34] Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were
possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the
things that were sold,
[35] And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made
unto every man according as he had need.
Where do you see liberty and the personal right to property in that?
> > Why should I confirm the lie of a paranoid delusionist who seeks to
> > separate Christ, and indeed humanity, into separate groups and thus
> > promote warfare?
>
> Because we need to confirm some more that you are the reincarnated
> despots!
And you can't, because as we have proven from scripture, you're the one
who is a reincarnated despot.
> We are here to show the colors of each. We are here to see a
> religion that defends lying, and then calls Ellen White a liar and a
> fake.
She is what she is, and you are what you are.
> We need to become like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln as
> other paranoid delusionists so that we can go to heaven with them
> also!
I believe that those two are in hell for promoting the heresy of personal
property (and the starvation of millions).
> We need to demonstrate that we are fools for Christ with the
> tinfoil hats who will bear witness against the Children of the
> Antichrist through evidence.
And as we have proven, the one who supports personal liberty and property
is the antiChrist.
> > One wonders if the Anti-Ted is an arms dealer, sowing discord to both
> > sides in hopes of making money off of the fight.
>
> Just check what the Ustashis did, and we can only conclude that you
> will think that about us. The evidence and discussion has left
> naturally. Just tell us that you couldn't answer!
I don't believe the Ustashis exist. They are only a figment of the
Anti-Ted's imagination, created so that he can sell more guns to children.
> > > > Liberty is useless, and has only created schism.
> > >
> > > GREAT!! LET'S TAKE AWAY LIBERTY SO THAT WE CAN SEE THE BENEFITS
> WITHOUT
> > > IT AND START THE TEST ON YOUR CHURCH!
> >
> > The main benefit without it: No war, cooperation replacing
> > competition,
> > no divisions among mankind, and the realization of Christ's prayer:
> > That
> > all men may be one. (John 17:21)
>
> DID YOU HEAR ME??!! Let's see the benefit of it. We start with YOUR
> CHURCH!! The one who puts forth this principle should be the first
> against whom the experiment be tested!
We did. For 1400 years, we did. The Guild Ecconomy was the most fair of
all ecconomic systems. Then the greedy Protestants destroyed it.
You are going against the prayer of Christ, John chapter 17. Go and read
it.
> > The real anti-christ is the one who stands against Christ.
>
> WRONG! Often the word "ANTI" does not mean AGAINST biblically.
Yeah, sure. Tell us another lie.
> It
> often meant "in place of" as in the anti-popes that existed during the
> Great Schism where the Catholic Church took a long time to deal with it-
> -FAR LONGER than it took you guys to deal with the postings I made
> about the Ustashis!
I don't care about your made-up lies.
Ted
--
On this day, the Feast of St. Matthew (Apostle and Evangelist)
http://www.e3mil.com/church_today/message.asp?section_id=4
Theodore Michael Seeber
Coo! he's the remedial beer.
mailto:see...@aracnet.com
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HREF="http://www.aracnet.com/~seebert>IDIC Home Page!</A>
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Blessed are the PeaceMakers, for they shall take flack from both sides
-Unofficial UN motto.
Theodore M. Seeber
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2000, Ted McMillan wrote:
>
> > The scriptures showed that the church WAS persecuted and not the other
> > way around like you all.
> > The scripture they told the world said that
> > the righteous shall suffer persecution. They did not write that the
> > Christians will persecute. That why Christ gave the Beauttitudes and
> > told Christians to turn the other cheek and go twain in miles. Easy to
> > forget those simple lessons, huh?
> > Christ was the one who even said that the day will come for Christians
> > when others that will kill them will think that they are doing God
> > service.
> > You found that with the Protestants. They didn't give you all your
> > just deserts even since the French Revolution. And no, you are in the
> > habit of not proving what you state. Show the specific chapter and
> > verse where they became like you all and persecuted.
And for those who doubt that Protestant Christians like the anti-Ted once
persecuted others:
Answers to Objections Regarding
the Church:
The Catholic Church butchered 68 million people during the Middle Ages.
by Gary Hoge
Outrageous accusations like this one can be found in such anti-Catholic
literature as Dr. Ed DeVries' paper, "Are We Being Led to Rome?", in which
he accused the Catholic Church of slaughtering 68 million Baptists during
the Dark Ages. This is remarkable, if only because the Baptist
denomination did not exist in the Dark Ages. It was founded by John Smyth
in Amsterdam in 1607. But whoever these people may have been, the Catholic
Church stands accused of killing 68 million of them. To give you some
perspective, this is more than the entire population of Greece, the
Balkans, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, the British Isles, Germany, and
Scandinavia combined for the year 1340, which was the peak of European
population before it was decimated by the Black Plague, beginning in
1347.[1] One would think that the deaths of as many people as the Catholic
Church is accused of killing would have been catastrophic to European
society, and yet there is no mention of it in the history books. But the
Black Plague, which killed "only" 25 million people, completely devastated
and radically reoriented European society. According to Erika Witowski, of
North Park University,
European economy and society changed drastically following the Black
Death. Because so many people had died, there was a huge labor
shortage. This ended the feudal system, since serfs could leave their
manors and make a better living in cities. . . . The Black Death changed
European history in many significant ways. Its fatal symptoms took many
human lives, and its influence carried over into many areas of
society. Economically, Europe flourished because depopulation allowed
wealth for more people. . . . Europe would not be the same today without
these changes, brought on through the devastation of the Black Plague.[2]
So, supposedly the Catholic Church killed more than twice as many people
as the Black Plague without anybody noticing it, except certain
anti-Catholic Protestant Fundamentalists. Obviously, this is patently
absurd.
That is not to say, however, that no one was ever killed during various
inquisitions and persecutions, but more sane estimates put the number as
low as four thousand, spread over three centuries. Other estimates are
higher, but the truth is, no one really knows how many people died. Let us
agree, though, that it was a lot of people, well into the thousands,
perhaps even hundreds of thousands. The fact that the Catholic Church was
at least indirectly responsible for so many deaths (which were actually
carried out by the civil governments) is used by some to argue that it
must not be the Church that Christ founded. The gist of the argument is
that no true Christian church would do such a thing, the Catholic Church
did such a thing, therefore it is not the true Christian church.
Unfortunately, this argument collapses when it is shown that Protestant
churches were guilty of exactly the same kind of behavior. For instance,
in Germany, about 100,000 people were executed for alleged witchcraft.[3]
Martin Luther wrote, "I would have no compassion on these witches; I would
burn them all."[4] In Protestant England, about 30,000 people were burned
at the stake for witchcraft.[5] According to secular historian Preserved
Smith,
A . . . patent cause of the mania was the zeal and bibliolatry of
Protestantism . . . Luther . . . seeing an idiotic child, whom he regarded
as a changeling, . . . recommended the authorities to drown it, as a body
without a soul. Repeatedly, both in private talk and in public sermons, he
recommended that witches should be put to death without mercy and without
regard for legal niceties . . . Four witches were burned at Wittenberg on
June 29, 1540. The other Protestants hastened to follow the bad example of
their master. In Geneva, under Calvin, 34 women were burned or quartered
for the crime in the year 1545. A sermon of Bishop Jewel in 1562 was
perhaps the occasion of a new English law against witchcraft . . . After
the mania reached its height in the closing years of the century,
anything, however trivial, would arouse suspicion . . . The Spanish
Inquisition, on the other hand . . . treated witchcraft as a diabolical
delusion.[6]
Protestants not only persecuted alleged witches, but also Catholics and
even each other. This is not generally known to most Protestants, but it
is well known to historians, both Catholic and Protestant. As Johann von
Dollinger wrote,
Historically nothing is more incorrect than the assertion that the
Reformation was a movement in favour of intellectual freedom. The exact
contrary is the truth. For themselves, it is true, the Lutherans and
Calvinists claimed liberty of conscience . . . but to grant it to others
never occurred to them so long as they were the stronger side. The
complete extirpation of the Catholic Church, and in fact of everything
that stood in their way, was regarded by the reformers as something
entirely natural.[7]
According to Rousseau "the Reformation was intolerant from its cradle, and
its authors were universal persecutors."[8] Protestant author Henry Hallam
wrote that "persecution is the deadly original sin of the Reformed
churches, that which cools every honest man's zeal for their cause in
proportion as his reading becomes extensive."[9]
Some examples:
In Luther's case it is impossible to speak of liberty of conscience or
religious freedom . . . The death-penalty for heresy rested on the highest
Lutheran authority . . . The views of the other reformers on the
persecution and bringing to justice of [Protestant] heretics were merely
the outgrowth of Luther's plan; they contributed nothing fresh.[10]
Even contempt of the outward Word, carelessness about going to church and
contempt of Scripture - in this instance . . . as interpreted by Luther -
was now regarded as "rank blasphemy," which it was the duty of the
authorities to punish as such. To such lengths had the vaunted freedom of
the Gospel now gone.[11]
Young Bible students he [Ulrich Zwingli] once mentored were now advocating
more radical reform . . . refusing to have their babies baptized, citing
his own earlier ideas . . . In January, 1525, Zwingli agreed that they
deserved capital punishment . . . for tearing the fabric of a seamless
Christian society.[12]
The presence at sermons . . . was enjoined under pain of punishment; all
teaching and church worship that deviated from the prescribed regulations
was punishable. Even outside the district of Zurich the clergy were not
allowed to read Mass or the laity to attend. And it was actually
forbidden, "under pain of severe punishment, to keep pictures and images
even in private houses" . . . The example of Zurich was followed by other
Swiss Cantons.[13]
The persecution of the Anabaptists began in Zurich . . . The penalties
enjoined by the Town Council of Zurich were "drowning, burning, or
beheading," according as it seemed advisable . . . "It is our will," the
Council proclaimed, "that wherever they be found, whether singly or in
companies, they shall be drowned to death, and that none of them shall be
spared."[14]
A volume might be filled with indubitable facts to prove the intolerant
spirit of Luther and of the various sects which his rebellion
originated. The quarrels, hostilities and jealousies that constantly arose
among one and all made them a prey to the fiercest dissensions. They
anathematized and persecuted each other . . . and indulged in the coarsest
and vilest invective . . . The Lutherans . . . denounced and excluded the
reformed Calvinists from salvation. The Calvinists roused up the people
against the Lutherans . . . Zwingli complained of Luther's intolerance
when he was the victim . . . but he and his followers threw the poor
Anabaptists into the Lake of Zurich, enclosed in sacks.[15]
The Protestants persecuted each other, and Catholics, and witches, to the
limit of their ability. If they were responsible for fewer deaths than the
Catholic Church, it is only because they controlled less territory. The
"persecution argument," then, cuts both ways. If it is an argument against
the validity of Catholicism, then it is also an argument against the
validity of Protestantism.
Let's face it, some of our history as Christians is not very attractive,
no matter on which side of the Reformation you find yourself, and
Protestants who accuse the Catholic Church of atrocity are simply throwing
stones from within their own glass house. I will not defend the
Inquisition, and other such persecutions: I think they were barbaric. I
will simply note that it was a barbaric time, by modern standards, and
that Protestants were indistinguishable from Catholics in this regard.
We may not be able to condone what our ancestors did, but perhaps we can
try to understand it. To do so, we need to understand that the people
living back then had a very different attitude towards heresy than we
do. In the Middle Ages, the entire society was organized around
religion. Thus, heresy was not seen as simply a matter of personal sin or
ignorance, but as a crime against the public order. To advocate a
different religion was seen as a challenge to the state and the common
good. Unfortunately, this led to some terrible persecution, of which all
Christians should be ashamed.
End Notes
Josiah C. Russell, "Population in Europe:, in Carlo M. Cipolla, ed., The
Fontana Economic History of Europe, Vol. I: The Middle Ages,
(Glasgow: Collins/Fontana, 1972), 25-71.
Erika L. Witowski, The Black Death 1347-1351, North Park University, 1996.
R. Trevor Davies, The Golden Century of Spain: 1501-1621,
(London: Macmillan, 1937), 14.
Quoted in John L. Stoddard, Rebuilding a Lost Faith, (New
York: P.J. Kenedy & Sons, 1922), 99.
William Thomas Walsh, Isabella of Spain, (New York: Robert M. McBride,
1930), 275.
Preserved Smith, The Social Background of the Reformation, (New
York: Collier Books, 1962), 186-187.
Johann von Dollinger, Kirche und Kirchen, 1861, 68.
Quoted in Stoddard, Faith, 205.
Henry Hallam, Constitutional History of England, vol 1, 63.
Walther Kohler [Protestant], Reformation und Ketzerprozess, 1901, 29.
Karl Wappler [Protestant], Die Inquisition, 1908, 69.
John L. Ruth, "America's Anabaptists: Who They Are," Christianity Today,
October 22, 1990, 26.
Johannes Janssen, History of the German People From the Close of the
Middle Ages, tr. A. M. Christie, (St. Louis: B. Herder, 1910), vol. 3,
134-135.
Janssen, History, vol. 3, 153-157.
Patrick F. OHare, The Facts About Luther, (Rockford, IL: TAN Books,
rev. ed., 1987), 293).
| Home | Objections Regarding the Church |
Copyright 1998 by Gary Hoge
Ted McMillan
100...@shell1.aracnet.com>,
If you antichristians even killed 1,000 you are worse than any cult we
know of today!
Here now you all have to argue in order to put into confusion your
horrible and returning crimes of the past.
Llorente, formerly Secretary of the Inquisition, said that 31,912
Protestants were burned to death in Spain. BUT, of course we are
dealing with the despots posting here, where even CATHOLIC statements
don't mean a thing! They then accuse us of being as demonic as they
are!
This whole thing of even debating about how or to what degree of
Satanism the Vatican was and is, is ridiculous. These horrors always
detail about what is sane and insane, but the worst is that they can
stand and call other religions CULTS when their record just cannot be
compared.
Folks, these are the imps of the Antichrist. The Pharisees were able
to be silence by the truth being given to Jesus where they could not
answer. We are not dealing with the Pharisees here. We are dealing
with WORSE!
For even all the arguments about even Protestants persecuting, just
remember that it cannot be found in their writings where such a thing
is a mandate, unlike Rome.
Ted
--
For the work finished!
Ted McMillan, Owner
Truth of Adventism Defended Forum
truth_of_adv...@egroups.com
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