references
C Phelan
have a point, they can be hilarious. For example, the Ayn Rand Day Care
Center in "Streetcar" (sorry I don't know the episode number) was inspired
comedy not because it referenced a philosopher, but because of the absurdity
of a day care center named after her. On the other hand, references to
movies just for the sake of doing it is stupid. Examples: Lisa smashing
the mirror (Batman reference) in "Last Exit to Springfield" and
Homer doing a Richard Burton (Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf)
in the Bigger Brother episode, or just about everything in
the season premiere just shown. I watch this show to laugh, not to be
on a "Catch that reference" quiz show.
I want the old Simpsons back.
Chris Phelan
cph...@thor.econ.wisc.edu
Marc Y. Wasserman
I tend to disagree. One of the things that keeps the charm is saying
to yourself, "Hey, I get that!" The jokes are more adult; they don't
make them stupid. You have to be educated to get them (I mean, really,
how many people know who Ayn Rand is, or would recognize the Halloween
"Clockwork Orange" reference?)
One of the best shows on TV, Mystery Science Theatre 3000, is loaded
with references like that. That's what _makes_ it one of the best
shows. The Simpsons is doing much the same thing. I like it.
Marc
mwas...@du.edu
--
"So you're choosing to run from your own people in a rackety old TARDIS?"
D O C T O R W H O
30 Years
"Why not? After all, that's how it all started!"
James A. Cherry
>cph...@gsbpjk.uchicago.edu (C Phelan) writes:
>>Is anybody else getting sick of references for references sake?
[stuff deleted]
>> I watch this show to laugh, not to be
>>on a "Catch that reference" quiz show.
>
>I tend to disagree. One of the things that keeps the charm is saying
>to yourself, "Hey, I get that!" The jokes are more adult; they don't
>make them stupid. You have to be educated to get them (I mean, really,
>how many people know who Ayn Rand is, or would recognize the Halloween
>"Clockwork Orange" reference?)
>One of the best shows on TV, Mystery Science Theatre 3000, is loaded
>with references like that. That's what _makes_ it one of the best
>shows. The Simpsons is doing much the same thing. I like it.
Yeah, what Marc said. I love watching Dennis Miller standup for the
same reason; I only get maybe half of the references he makes, but
they're really clever.
--
James A. Cherry "Deal with it, pal!"
michael grisham
It also requires less creativity to reference old movies or shows that have
already been done once. I for one would like to see some fresh new ideas
as well, and stop all this "Hey that line was from this movie. No it
wasn't! It was from this one."
To quote Ralph, the new shows are funny, "but not ha ha funny"
Michael Grisham
--
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
internet: laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
R...@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu
It takes a hell of a lot of creativity to work that many references into a show
I thought the season opener was as good as any show I'd seen. IMHO it was
ha ha funny.
- Rick Genovese
C Phelan
>cph...@gsbpjk.uchicago.edu (C Phelan) (me) writes:
>>Is anybody else getting sick of references for references sake? ...
>I tend to disagree. One of the things that keeps the charm is saying
>to yourself, "Hey, I get that!" The jokes are more adult; they don't
>make them stupid. You have to be educated to get them (I mean, really,
>how many people know who Ayn Rand is, or would recognize the Halloween
>"Clockwork Orange" reference?)
>One of the best shows on TV, Mystery Science Theatre 3000, is loaded
>with references like that. That's what _makes_ it one of the best
>shows. The Simpsons is doing much the same thing. I like it.
>Marc
>mwas...@du.edu
Maybe I could make my point better as follows. I got the reference to
Clockwork Orange and laughed the small laugh one does when one gets a
clever reference. In fact, I appreciated them putting it in there. But
in that show, the references were mostly in the *background*. They did
not dominate the show. Now it seems they *are* the show.
Chris Phelan
cph...@thor.econ.wisc.edu
James A. Cherry
(C Phelan) writes:
>mwas...@du.edu (Marc Y. Wasserman) writes:
>>
>>cph...@gsbpjk.uchicago.edu (C Phelan) (me) writes:
>>>Is anybody else getting sick of references for references sake? [...]
>>
>>I tend to disagree. One of the things that keeps the charm is saying
>>to yourself, "Hey, I get that!" [...]
>
>Maybe I could make my point better as follows. I got the reference to
>Clockwork Orange and laughed the small laugh one does when one gets a
>clever reference. In fact, I appreciated them putting it in there. But
>in that show, the references were mostly in the *background*. They did
>not dominate the show. Now it seems they *are* the show.
Really? Maybe in this particular episode, they were. But IMHO, the
show was funny in itself. Barney with the great singing voice but lousy
speaking voice? Homer composing idiotic songs? The sheer arrogance of
calling onself "Bigger Than Jesus", despite the fact that it was
attributed to the Beatles? Funny foam as a marketing ploy? Self-parody
with Bart and Lisa asking, "How come we never heard about this", etc.?
All these ideas by themselves make me laugh. And the similarity of many
things to the Beatles is clever _on top of_ these, IMHO.
Besides, I don't agree that many of the recent episodes are entirely
composed of references. Consider "Marge in Chains", "Krusty Gets
Kancelled", "The Front", and "Last Exit to Springfield". In fact,
looking at my own choices for top five episodes of last season (I've
taken this from my own season IV survey, distributed by Chris Baird):
Epicode Episode title Grade
-----+----------------------------------+-----
9F07 | Mr. Plow | 5
9F03 | Itchy & Scratchy: The Movie | 5
9F14 | Duffless | 4.5
9F01 | Homer the Heretic | 4.5
9F18 | Whacking Day | 4
I would say _all_ these shows were funny for the ideas themselves, not
because of the references in each of these shows. I don't think it can
be said that _any_ of these episodes are predominantly a take-off of one
thing.
I'm not trying to start a flame war. Sorry if my tone sounds snarky; I
don't mean it to. I simply wish to disagree with your assertion that
references _are_ now the show.
Thomas A. Baker
Yeah. If you don't want to watch for references, you don't have to.
You can bet the little kids don't even know what's happening.
This is what makes it possible for a show to appeal to all ages.
The cover story of NewsWeek is "The Battle to Insult Our Intelligence",
with Beavis and Butthead and David Letterman on the cover. Ichecked
inside and was reassured that OFF aren't on the list of "stupid shows".
If I want to just follow the antics of a TV family, the show works.
If I know that they toss in clever stuff that I have to watch for, that
heightens the interest for me, and the show still works.
Finally, I *like* picking up on references in this group. I had no idea
that the album by "Murphy" to Lisa's right was a Bleeding Gums album,
and I didn't even see the wall graffitti on the roof.
Tom "Still Wasting Time in the Simpsons Group" Baker
Heh, heh, heh, heh!
There are perfectly good
answers to those questions!
But they'll have to wait
for another night!
Now off to bed!
-- Homer
C Phelan
>In article <jac.749826698@emma> j...@doe.carleton.ca (James A. Cherry) writes:
>>In <CEEq0...@du.edu> mwas...@du.edu (Marc Y. Wasserman) writes:
>>
>>>cph...@gsbpjk.uchicago.edu (C Phelan) writes:
>>>>Is anybody else getting sick of references for references sake?
>>[stuff deleted]
>>>> I watch this show to laugh, not to be
>>>>on a "Catch that reference" quiz show.
>>>
(whole bunch deleted)
>Yeah. If you don't want to watch for references, you don't have to.
>You can bet the little kids don't even know what's happening.
>This is what makes it possible for a show to appeal to all ages.
>The cover story of NewsWeek is "The Battle to Insult Our Intelligence",
>with Beavis and Butthead and David Letterman on the cover. Ichecked
>inside and was reassured that OFF aren't on the list of "stupid shows".
>If I want to just follow the antics of a TV family, the show works.
>If I know that they toss in clever stuff that I have to watch for, that
>heightens the interest for me, and the show still works.
>Finally, I *like* picking up on references in this group. I had no idea
>that the album by "Murphy" to Lisa's right was a Bleeding Gums album,
>and I didn't even see the wall graffitti on the roof.
>Tom "Still Wasting Time in the Simpsons Group" Baker
Whoa. Time out. No one is saying that references aren't a positive
addition to the show. I'm just contending they can be a crutch for
the writers. If you can't think of something funny, then throw in an
obscure reference and at least you can feel superior.
As for NewsWeek's opinion of OFF, why were you reassured? Not being on
the list is the equivalent of not being on a What's Not list in those
wonderful What's Hot, What's Not lists. There is something strange about
accepting an opinion about what is or isn't an insult to one's
intelligence in the form of list prepared for those with attention
deficit disorder.
Chris Phelan
cph...@thor.econ.wisc.edu
Thomas A. Baker
>tomb...@bumetb.bu.edu (Thomas A. Baker) writes:
>>Finally, I *like* picking up on references in this group. I had no idea
>>that the album by "Murphy" to Lisa's right was a Bleeding Gums album,
>>and I didn't even see the wall graffitti on the roof.
>
>>Tom "Still Wasting Time in the Simpsons Group" Baker
>
>Whoa. Time out. No one is saying that references aren't a positive
>addition to the show. I'm just contending they can be a crutch for
>the writers. If you can't think of something funny, then throw in an
>obscure reference and at least you can feel superior.
Ah ha! You are right. Like a bunch of other people, I read your post
as as "Aren't we paying too much attention" when you apparently meant
"Are the writers taking an easy way out?" Sorry.
First of all ... I would never criticize the writers. I don't know if I
could keep up the pace required, writing 6.5 (or 13, I don't know) hours
of hilarity per year. Back when I was considering joke writing, I understood
that you might write "a smile a minute, a chuckle an hour". Humor is *very*
hard to write.
That said, I will say "Yes!" to your question. I almost brought this
subject up myself, about halfway through the last season. For a while, it
did grate on my nerves that every scene drawn from a slightly different
perspective, every piece of dialog that seemed slightly out of character,
and nearly everything clever that was said or done, turned out to be inspired
from some other piece of work or news.
Remember that Homer speech "You've been out with that floozy of a bigger
brother of yours!" in "Brother from the Same Planet". As soon as I saw
that I said "That's not funny, so they pulled it from somewhere, but where?"
And this group dwelled on the question, too. Instead of laughing, I was
scratching my head.
For a while there, the show seemed to be a Mad parody of a collection of
movie clips, rather than an animated sitcom.
But the feeling passed.
(Sorry for misinterpreting your original post.)
Tom "Still Wasting Time in the Simpsons Group" Baker
"Bingo-Bango!
Sugar in the Gas Tank!
Your ex-husband strikes again!"
(Last Valentine's Day's show)
Athas
cousin finds these obscure bits funny. He is 9, and I think when
his generation is old enough to realize that jokes they attributed
to Bart and Co. are really just rehashed they are going to rise
up as a group of unholy warriors (or something like that to ref.
Bart :)) of the night. Seriously, I love the refs. but I think its
important to keep them balanced with fresh new original humor. Our
whole popular culture has become one big inside joke reference to
itself, what with movies about old TV shows and cartoons, and
sampling in music.
Juha Terho
JAC> looking at my own choices for top five episodes of last season (I've
JAC> taken this from my own season IV survey, distributed by Chris Baird):
People always argue about which is the best show of last season or ever etc.
What does everyone think is the <worst> episode ever?
My nominees are Lisa the Beauty Queen (9F02) and Dancin' Homer (7F05).
--
Juha "mmm... spoilers..." Terho
Internet: juha....@mpoli.fi
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
ar...@oregon.uoregon.edu
>People always argue about which is the best show of last season or ever etc.
>
>What does everyone think is the <worst> episode ever?
The clip show. No question about it. LAST EXIT a distant second.
>My nominees are Lisa the Beauty Queen (9F02) and Dancin' Homer (7F05).
LISA THE BEAUTY QUEEN? I *loved* that one! Finally a show that dares to attack
advertising during prime time!
Andrew "I refuse to be a corporate shill" Ross (DUFFLESS is still the best
from last season).
Juha Terho
TAB> The cover story of NewsWeek is "The Battle to Insult Our
TAB> Intelligence", with Beavis and Butthead and David Letterman on the
TAB> cover. I checked inside and was reassured that OFF aren't on the list
TAB> of "stupid shows".
Whew. OFF's writing and humor is excellent. I don't know what or who is
this Letterman, but I have seen Beavis and Butthead. It looks like B & B's
scripts are done with a "speech generator", you know, those computer programs
that make speeches or texts the way you want.
Just enter "huh huhhuh uhhuh", "cool" and "to suck" into a speech generator
and there you got a B & B script!
And still some people say B & B is better than OFF.
<shudder>
--
Juha "you can always depend on strangers [8F18]" Terho; juha....@mpoli.fi
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Juha Terho
AR> The clip show. No question about it. LAST EXIT a distant second.
9F17 Clip Show:
It was good... until they started showing the clips. The scene where
Homer eats the chips is brilliant!
"So thirsty... ah, well, whaddaya gonna do?"
"Excess of alcohol consumption can cause liver damage and cancer of the
rectum." "Mmm. Beer..."
9F15 Last Exit to Springfield
First I hated this one. On the fifteenth (...not) time, it was actually
quite good! "Simpson, be a dear and rub my legs till the feeling comes
back." "I prefer the human, hands-on touch you only get with hired goons."
The humor was ... different. But I like it now.
AR> LISA THE BEAUTY QUEEN? I *loved* that one! Finally a show that dares
AR> to attack advertising during prime time!
Lisa the Beauty Queen S-U-C-K-S. Worst episode <EVER>.
AR> DUFFLESS is still the best from last season.
I don't think so. But 9F09 (Homer's Triple Bypass) was excellent.
--
Juha "coffee is not for kids [9F09]" Terho; juha....@mpoli.fi
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
ar...@oregon.uoregon.edu
>Tom A. Baker wrote...
>
>TAB> The cover story of NewsWeek is "The Battle to Insult Our
>TAB> Intelligence", with Beavis and Butthead and David Letterman on the
>TAB> cover. I checked inside and was reassured that OFF aren't on the list
>TAB> of "stupid shows".
Look again; They're not only on the list, but there's even a *picture* of Bart,
with slingshot in pocket, looking guiltily over his shoulder from the
blackboard where he is writing "I will not waste chalk."
Also featured in stupid photos are Letterman's stupid pet tricks, Ren & Stimpy,
B & B (twice), Married with Children, Seinfeld, and a few more I forgot...
Andrew Ross Mmm, Debbie...
BTW, Did you notice, just before Marge turns around in Bart's paranoid world
and says "I'm gonna get you...some ice cream", she's cutting out what looks
like a big red word "die" from the paper? Turns out to be the first three
letters of the diet cola coupon, of course.
John Shalamskas
>mwas...@du.edu (Marc Y. Wasserman) writes:
>>cph...@gsbpjk.uchicago.edu (C Phelan) (me) writes:
>>>Is anybody else getting sick of references for references sake? ...
>>I tend to disagree. One of the things that keeps the charm is saying
>>to yourself, "Hey, I get that!" The jokes are more adult; they don't
>in that show, the references were mostly in the *background*. They did
>not dominate the show. Now it seems they *are* the show.
>
>Chris Phelan
>cph...@thor.econ.wisc.edu
>
I see, you must not like MST3k then. I wonder if Joel Hodgeson (sp?)
had anything to do with the drift toward lots of movie references?
Thomas A. Baker
>>Tom A. Baker wrote...
>>TAB> The cover story of NewsWeek is "The Battle to Insult Our
>>TAB> Intelligence", with Beavis and Butthead and David Letterman on the
>>TAB> cover. I checked inside and was reassured that OFF aren't on the list
>>TAB> of "stupid shows".
>
>Look again; They're not only on the list, but there's even a *picture* of Bart,
>with slingshot in pocket, looking guiltily over his shoulder from the
>blackboard where he is writing "I will not waste chalk."
The list, page 50, that I referred to is Bewitched, Bonanza,
Charlies Angels, Dragnet, F Troop, Flintstones, Gilligan's Island, I
Dream of Jeanie, Leave It to Beaver, and Three's Company. No
Simpsons. But, on another look, that is the list of "retro TV" ...
Tom
Juha Terho
>> cover. I checked inside and was reassured that OFF aren't on the list
>> of "stupid shows".
> Look again; They're not only on the list, but there's even a *picture*
> of Bart, with slingshot in pocket, looking guiltily over his shoulder
> from the blackboard where he is writing "I will not waste chalk."
Blasphemy!
The Simpsons is one of the most intelligent shows on this planet!
Blasphemy!
--
Juha "why are you dedicating your life to blasphemy?" [9F01] Terho
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12