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KING BILLY-INTERNATIONAL HERO!

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Conrad Jay Bladey

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Jul 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/10/95
to
William of Orange 1650-1702

Posthumous son of William II of Orange ruler of the United Netherlands.
Married Mary daughter of James duke of York 1677

Short,asthmatic,stooped bad teeth and beaked nose-obsessed with the
destruction of France and the salvation of the Netherlands.
As King William III of England he accomplished far more for the welfare of
the English people than had most of his native-born predecessors. He
removed the tyranny of games and reformed the nations political and
financial institutions. His reign marked the transition from the personal
government of the Stuarts to the parliamentary rule of the
Hanoverians-control of the army was transferred to Parliament, a better
system of finance was introduced and the Bank of England was established.
The constitutional rights of the people were set on a firmer basis.

No matter what country was to deal with England they would deal with a
constitutional monarchy after 1689 (for example Ireland-It was hard enough
to win freedom from a constitutional monarchy for a republic-under the
tyranny of an absolutist this would have been much more difficult as found
the French who accomplished this with their bloody revolution)

William was throughout his reign A Dedicated advocate of tolerance.

Sets sail November 1 with 225 vessels army of 15,000 men-portable
bridge,mobile smithy,printing press,mould for new coinage,four tons
tobacco,1,600 hogsheads of beer,10,000 pairs boots ,coach and horses.
The Protestant Wind.

Property ownership proving far more important than religion-the gentry
sided with William-James II fled to France dropping the great seal of
England in the Thames.

In 1689 William and Mary were recognized as joint monarchs and
parliament moved a great step closer to limiting the tyranny of absolute
monarchs.
William fell off of his horse and died in 1702. As a foreigner William was
not as successful in his dealings with parliament as he might have been.
As a result the parliament pursued a course which at times (especially in
regard to the Penal laws) was not that selected by William who favored
tolerance. While the parliament resisted reform until well into the 19th
century ,under William parliament emerged in the form of an institution
which the Irish delegation could eventually use in the time of O'Connell
and Parnell to bring about change in Ireland. Had the tyranny of
absolutism prevailed this would have been impossible.

If I had a penny
Do you know what I would do?
I would buy a rope
And hang the pope
And let King Billy through!

--

JOIN THE POTATO ABSTENTION:9/9/95 PLAN EVENT/FEED HUNGRY/Educate Public!!!!!!
Commemorate the Great Famine-Ireland 1845-Correct spelling-the devil's work!!
CELTIC STUDIES AND TEACHING IN BALTO.MD.USA AREA-SAVE CULTURE-CLASSES ANYONE?

KHSkill

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Jul 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/10/95
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The Washington metropolitan area joins the great city of Baltimore in
this salute to William III. Truly a monarch of glorious and immortal
memory! Get those bonfires going! Dust off the Lambeg drums! Join the
move to push back July 4 to July 12!
Kenneth S.

New Soul

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Jul 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/11/95
to
I suppose next you guys will be hailing the slaughter of Native Americans
by the calvary or various lynchings by the Klu Klux Klan. Or maybe you
will celebrate the actions of Serbs against Croats.

I can't believe this bold and unashamed heralding of King Billy. Call me
a dumb American, but I find it disgusting.

Kevin Lee

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Jul 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/11/95
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In article <3tue4c$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, New Soul
<new...@aol.com> writes

Especially when you remember the American War of Independence.

--
Kevin Lee

John Monk

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Jul 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/12/95
to
In article <DBI5E...@freenet.carleton.ca>, bj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
says...

>
>William of Orange 1650-1702
>
>Posthumous son of William II of Orange ruler of the United Netherlands.
>Married Mary daughter of James duke of York 1677

(rest snipped)

If this isn't sarcasm, then please take this inflamatory, pseudo-religious
shite out of this newsgroup.

Him Again


Tom Brennan

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Jul 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/12/95
to
(Conrad Jay Bladey) wrote:

> The constitutional rights of the people were set on a firmer basis.

There is no constitution in Great Britian. "Rights" are based on
interpretation of common law. There is no codified set of rules to
protect individuals from government abuses, as per the Birmingham 6, etc.
The establishment of a Bill of Rights in NI is one of the ideas that has
been suggested for discussion at all-party talks on NI (if the ever get
started.)

--
Bye for now

Tom B.

Muriel McKay

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Jul 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/12/95
to

Yes, why keep the antagonism in Ireland and Glasgow, the whole
world can now join in this pointless occasion. Get over it !

Muriel McKay


Jill Baker PJbakerT-SP

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Jul 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/12/95
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Kevin Lee (Ke...@krlee.demon.co.uk) wrote:

: Especially when you remember the American War of Independence.

Or even the Irish War of Independence.

--
Jill (my opinions are my own, not my employers')
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I will NEVER turn to the dark side!
I am a Jedi - like my father before me."

Colin Rosenthal

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Jul 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/12/95
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Kevin Lee (Ke...@krlee.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <3tue4c$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, New Soul
: <new...@aol.com> writes
: >I suppose next you guys will be hailing the slaughter of Native Americans
: >by the calvary or various lynchings by the Klu Klux Klan. Or maybe you
: >will celebrate the actions of Serbs against Croats.
: >
: >I can't believe this bold and unashamed heralding of King Billy. Call me
: >a dumb American, but I find it disgusting.

Well the Pope supported him. Doesn't that count for something? (8-))
(Is that actually true, or just one of this legend-thingies?)

--Colin Rosenthal | ``Don't smell the flowers -
--rose...@obs.aau.dk | They're an evil drug -
--http://bigcat.obs.aau.dk/~rosentha | To make you lose your mind''-
--Aarhus University, Denmark | Ronnie James Dio, 1983 -

Bruce Munro

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Jul 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/12/95
to
In article <tomerry-1207...@rb20.superlink.net>,

Crikey! You actually mean to say that no innocent people have
ever been jailed in the history of the USA?

I find that amazing.


--
Bruce Munro. <B.O.C...@bnr.co.uk>
"The game is about glory. It is about doing things in style, with a
flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for
them to die of boredom." - Danny Blanchflower

Pete469

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Jul 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/12/95
to
conrad writes:

>
>William of Orange 1650-1702

>Posthumous son of William II of Orange ruler of the United Netherlands.
>Married Mary daughter of James duke of York 1677

>Short,asthmatic,stooped bad teeth and beaked nose-

AND AN ASSHOLE WHO COULD'NT RIDE!!

KHSkill

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Jul 13, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/13/95
to
What is this from "Pete" that King Billy couldn't RIDE? An
outrageous libel! I personally have witnessed many Orange banners showing
His Majesty at the Boyne on the back of a white horse. It is clear from
these banners that, not only could he ride, but he was gesticulating with
a sword in a very manly fashion at the same time.
Kenneth S.

John J Smith

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Jul 13, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/13/95
to
In article <DBI5E...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
Conrad Jay Bladey <bj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>William of Orange 1650-1702

>
>If I had a penny
>Do you know what I would do?
>I would buy a rope
>And hang the pope
>And let King Billy through!

And thanks for all the causing a splendid few hundred years of bloodlust,
slaughter, and arseholes like the bloke who posted this sad bigotted
diatribe.

Smid


Steve McKinty - SunSoft ICNC Grenoble

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Jul 13, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/13/95
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In article <3u30v7$s...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, khs...@aol.com (KHSkill) writes:
> What is this from "Pete" that King Billy couldn't RIDE? An
> outrageous libel! I personally have witnessed many Orange banners showing
> His Majesty at the Boyne on the back of a white horse.

Which appears to be some, umm, artistic license, since he actually
rode a black one.

Steve

--
Steve McKinty |
Sun Microsystems ICNC |
38240 Meylan, France |
email: smck...@france.sun.com |

Steve McKinty - SunSoft ICNC Grenoble

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Jul 13, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/13/95
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In article <3u03n7$8...@news.uni-c.dk>, rosentha@indigo (Colin Rosenthal) writes:

> Well the Pope supported him. Doesn't that count for something? (8-))
> (Is that actually true, or just one of this legend-thingies?)

Its true. The Pope was concerned that the accession of James,
combined with the growing power of the catholic monarchy
in France, could form an alliance large enough to threaten
the church in Rome. It was only 300 years or so since the
schism which saw two popes, one in Rome and one in Avignon.

Matthew Woodford

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Jul 13, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/13/95
to
In article <3u30v7$s...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, KHSkill <khs...@aol.com> wrote:
> What is this from "Pete" that King Billy couldn't RIDE? An
>outrageous libel! I personally have witnessed many Orange banners showing
>His Majesty at the Boyne on the back of a white horse. It is clear from
>these banners that, not only could he ride, but he was gesticulating with
>a sword in a very manly fashion at the same time.

William III's horse fell, killing him, when it put it's foot in a mole-hill.
Tories invented a new drink to celebrate his death and toast the 'little
gentleman in black velvet' who accomplished the deed. Black velvet: guiness and
champagne, a very good drink.

With that I leave you.

Matt


--
Matthew Woodford m...@rowan.cov.ac.uk

Mark Geary

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Jul 13, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/13/95
to
bj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Conrad Jay Bladey) wrote:
>William of Orange 1650-1702
>
..snip,....

Does anybody care???????????


Kevin Lee

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Jul 13, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/13/95
to
In article <3u03n7$8...@news.uni-c.dk>, Colin Rosenthal <rosentha@indigo>
writes

>Kevin Lee (Ke...@krlee.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>: In article <3tue4c$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, New Soul
>: <new...@aol.com> writes
>: >I suppose next you guys will be hailing the slaughter of Native Americans
>: >by the calvary or various lynchings by the Klu Klux Klan. Or maybe you
>: >will celebrate the actions of Serbs against Croats.
>: >
>: >I can't believe this bold and unashamed heralding of King Billy. Call me
>: >a dumb American, but I find it disgusting.
>
>Well the Pope supported him. Doesn't that count for something? (8-))
>(Is that actually true, or just one of this legend-thingies?)

Can you learn to attribute your quotations properly and not make
postings omitting the single line I posted in response to the above. The
way you have edited this follow-up gives the impression I wrote the
original message which I clearly did not.

Thank you.


--
Kevin Lee

Curt Marcus

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Jul 13, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/13/95
to
In article 8...@news.uni-c.dk, rosentha@indigo (Colin Rosenthal) writes:
>
>: >[...nonsense having nothing to do with William of Orange deleted...]

>
>Well the Pope supported him. Doesn't that count for something? (8-))
>(Is that actually true, or just one of this legend-thingies?)

Yes, it actually happened; it probably frosts Big Ian no end to know that
his man in 1690 was a "Papist tool"!!!

The Pope supported William of Orange over Jamie Stuart for one simple
reason: William was the spearhead of the anti-Louis XIV crowd, while Jamie
was supporting Louis (for the simple reason that Louis was the only one
willing to support Jamie). The Pope had a deep-seated desire to see Louis
in a grave, or at least considerably circumscribed in his ability to play
hob with Europe. So rather than support a Catholic against a Protestant,
he supported an anti-Louisite against a pro-Louisite. Even the Pope plays
politics.

The (the Stuarts couldn't even get their co-religionists to support them!)
Curtmudgeon

---
========================================================================
Curt Marcus, Jr. | They say.
cu...@ttsi.tandem.com | Quhat say they?
| They haif said.
My opinions are my own. | Let thame say. [E. Lessingham]


KHSkill

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Jul 14, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/14/95
to
Now, just a moment, Muriel. What's this with the "get over it
stuff?" How about some respect for diversity and cultural pluralism?
Aren't the Ulster Prods entitled to their day in the sun in North America,
too? Now we're on to July 14, and the French will be celebrating Bastille
Day. Will you be complaining against the spread of hatred directed
against the French aristocracy?
I still say, push back July 4 to July 12! 1690 over 1776 any day!

Kenneth S.

Mike

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Jul 14, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/14/95
to
In article <DBnJp...@ftel.co.uk>, John J Smith <J.J....@ftel.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <DBI5E...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
>Conrad Jay Bladey <bj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>>William of Orange 1650-1702
>>
>>If I had a penny
>>Do you know what I would do?
>>I would buy a rope
>>And hang the pope
>>And let King Billy through!
>
>And thanks for all the causing a splendid few hundred years of bloodlust,
>slaughter, and arseholes like the bloke who posted this sad bigotted
>diatribe.
>
> Smid
>


While hardly broadly read on this subject my impression was that the
"Troubles" started with Henry II and William the Marshal's invasion of
Ireland and really got bloody under everyone's favorite puritan,
Cromwell. It's somewhat unfair to blame the start on William III.

On a more humourous note, the Orange Day parades in Toronto (once a VERY
Orange town) were regularly disrupted in the 1920's by the predominantly
Irish streetcar drivers who would drive their cars in convoy through the
parade.

On a more bizarre note, the current head of the Orange Lodge in Ontario
is of Italian extraction.

Mike Manning,
Toronto


Gervase Webb

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Jul 17, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/17/95
to
In article <3u5jg5$k...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, khs...@aol.com (KHSkill) wrote:

>How about some respect for diversity and cultural pluralism?
> Aren't the Ulster Prods entitled to their day in the sun in North America,
> too?

Sure, but what would the reaction in Boston and Chicago be if they started
marching through Catholic areas hurling abuse and playing The Sash as
loudly as they could.
As someone who was in both Portadown and the Lower Ormeau Road last week
(as a reporter) I found the behaviour of the Orangement and their odious
hangers-on provocative and unpleasant in the extreme, and felt that the
Nationalists behaved with commendable restraint.
No-one objects to expressions of culture and tradition, but when they are
used deliberately to antagonise a minority community then any sensible
person should object.
Last Wednesday the law-abiding people of the Lower Ormeau Road were
subject to a virtual curfew by the RUC, forbidden even to go out and get a
pint of milk, just so the Orangemen could strut down their street. As one
put it: "It's like someone you don't like trying to hold a party in your
home and then chucking you out."
Astonishingly, the Protestants failed to see this. Instead they went to
great pains to present some Ghanaian Orangemen as examples of the
tolerance of gthe Order. The effect was somewhat blunted for me as I tried
to interview one when a bunch of teenagers started singing "I'd rather be
a nigger than a Taig"!
GW

--
Gervase Webb

Steve Howie

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Jul 17, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/17/95
to
Gervase Webb (g_w...@pavilion.co.uk) wrote:

: In article <3u5jg5$k...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, khs...@aol.com (KHSkill) wrote:
:
: >How about some respect for diversity and cultural pluralism?
: > Aren't the Ulster Prods entitled to their day in the sun in North America,
: > too?
: Sure, but what would the reaction in Boston and Chicago be if they started
: marching through Catholic areas hurling abuse and playing The Sash as
: loudly as they could.

blah blah blah

: As someone who was in both Portadown and the Lower Ormeau Road last week


: (as a reporter) I found the behaviour of the Orangement and their odious
: hangers-on provocative and unpleasant in the extreme, and felt that the
: Nationalists behaved with commendable restraint.

blah blah blah

: No-one objects to expressions of culture and tradition, but when they are


: used deliberately to antagonise a minority community then any sensible
: person should object.

blah blah blah

: Last Wednesday the law-abiding people of the Lower Ormeau Road were


: subject to a virtual curfew by the RUC, forbidden even to go out and get a
: pint of milk, just so the Orangemen could strut down their street. As one
: put it: "It's like someone you don't like trying to hold a party in your
: home and then chucking you out."

blah blah blah

: Astonishingly, the Protestants failed to see this. Instead they went to


: great pains to present some Ghanaian Orangemen as examples of the
: tolerance of gthe Order. The effect was somewhat blunted for me as I tried
: to interview one when a bunch of teenagers started singing "I'd rather be
: a nigger than a Taig"!

Thanks for sharing that with us. Now please do us all a big favour by

1. REMOVING REC.CULTURE.SCOTTISH from your followups!!!!!

2. Being a good boy and buggering off to where you can argue your ridiculous
Proddy vs. Catholic wars until the cows come home.

Christ on a bike - we don't want to hear about your problems in Ulster.
We're SICK of this shite. Learn to edit your followups.

Fuck off.

Thank you.

Scotty
--
=================================================================
Steve Howie Email: sho...@uoguelph.ca
NetNews and Gopher Admin. Phone: (519) 824-4120 x2556
Computing and Communications Svcs. Fax: (519) 763-6143
University of Guelph

If it's not Scottish its CRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPP
=================================================================

Message has been deleted

GervaisHenderson

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Jul 17, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/17/95
to
g_w...@pavilion.co.uk (Gervase Webb) wrote:
>In article <3u5jg5$k...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, khs...@aol.com (KHSkill) wrote:
>
>>How about some respect for diversity and cultural pluralism?
>> Aren't the Ulster Prods entitled to their day in the sun in North America,
>> too?
>Sure, but what would the reaction in Boston and Chicago be if they started
>marching through Catholic areas hurling abuse and playing The Sash as
>loudly as they could.
>As someone who was in both Portadown and the Lower Ormeau Road last week
>(as a reporter) I found the behaviour of the Orangement and their odious
>hangers-on provocative and unpleasant in the extreme, and felt that the
>Nationalists behaved with commendable restraint.
>No-one objects to expressions of culture and tradition, but when they are
>used deliberately to antagonise a minority community then any sensible
>person should object.
>Last Wednesday the law-abiding people of the Lower Ormeau Road were
??????????????????
>subject to a virtual curfew by the RUC, forbidden even to go out and get a
>pint of milk, just so the Orangemen could strut down their street. As one
>put it: "It's like someone you don't like trying to hold a party in your
>home and then chucking you out."
>Astonishingly, the Protestants failed to see this. Instead they went to
>great pains to present some Ghanaian Orangemen as examples of the
>tolerance of gthe Order. The effect was somewhat blunted for me as I tried
>to interview one when a bunch of teenagers started singing "I'd rather be
>a nigger than a Taig"!
>GW
>
>--
>Gervase Webb

The reason for the police action is due to the threat of violence by those in the
lower ormeau who are not law-abiding. Not every resident in those streets are law
abiding e.g. last july IRA gunmen disappeared in those streets after murdering
two protestants. Residents blocked the RUC from apprehending the gunmen. Are those
people law-abiding ?

Don't forget also that at least 6 parades have been re-routed from the lower ormeau
due to the threat of violence - is that law-abiding ?

Gervais


Aengus Lawlor

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Jul 17, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/17/95
to
In article <DBv1C...@bfsec.bt.co.uk>,

GervaisHenderson <ghend...@bfsec.bt.co.uk> wrote:
>The reason for the police action is due to the threat of violence by those
>in the
>lower ormeau who are not law-abiding. Not every resident in those streets
>are law
>abiding e.g. last july IRA gunmen disappeared in those streets after
>murdering
>two protestants. Residents blocked the RUC from apprehending the gunmen.
>Are those
>people law-abiding ?

This has come up a couple of times recently. For those of you who don't
recall the incident in question, here's how the Irish Emigrant of August
8th 1994 reported the incident:

! ORMEAU ROAD SHOOTING
!
!The two men who were shot dead in last Sunday evening's IRA attack on
!the Ormeau Road were named as Joe Bratty (33) and Raymond Elder (32),
!both from the area. On at least eight previous occasions attempts were
!made to kill Mr Bratty. Six months ago he received gunshot wounds to
!the groin and hand. He was reported to be the commander of the UFF in
!the Ormeau area. There was some disagreement over Mr Elder's alleged
!paramilitary involvement. At one point he was charged in connection
!with the killing of five Catholics at Sean Graham's bookies office but
!the charges were dropped for lack of evidence. His family issued a
!statement, through Ian Paisley Jnr, claiming that he was not associated
!with paramilitaries in any way, but the media was not convinced.
!Whatever associations the two men had, their killers came in for severe
!criticism from all sides, with the exception of Sinn Fein.
!
!In the immediate aftermath of the killings an unmarked police car
!arrived on the scene and gave chase as the IRA attackers made their
!getaway. Shots were fired by the RUC but no one was hit. The gunmen
!abandoned their car in the nationalist Lower Ormeau area. When the
!police arrived seconds later they were surrounded by an angry crowd.
!This later prompted the UFF to issue a threat against the nationalists
!of the area. A community leader later explained that the people were
!not aware that a shooting had taken place, nor that the RUC were in
!pursuit of the killers. He claimed that it was thought the police had
!"gone on the rampage".
!
!Both funerals passed off peacefully although the media was warned by
!locals not to come too close and not to use cameras. There were also
!complaints that shopowners along the routes of the funeral processions
!were intimidated into closing their premises.

>Don't forget also that at least 6 parades have been re-routed from the
>lower ormeau
>due to the threat of violence - is that law-abiding ?

I'm not sure what your point is, Gervais? Is there any side in the conflict
in NI that hasn't seen some people prepared to use violence of various
levels to support it? Or are you suggesting that the people of the Lower
Ormeau are considerably less law-abiding than anyone else in Belfast?

>Gervais
>
Aengus

--
ala...@rohmhaas.com (preferred) | Aengus Lawlor
ala...@ejovax.enet.dec.com (secondary) | (who used to be ala...@dit.ie)
An bhfuil cead agam dul amok? |
(For the record, neither Rohm & Haas nor Digital necessarily agree with me).

Stephen Cooper

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Jul 17, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/17/95
to
GervaisHenderson <ghend...@bfsec.bt.co.uk> writes:

>The reason for the police action is due to the threat of violence by those in the
>lower ormeau who are not law-abiding. Not every resident in those streets are law
>abiding e.g. last july IRA gunmen disappeared in those streets after murdering
>two protestants. Residents blocked the RUC from apprehending the gunmen. Are those
>people law-abiding ?

>Don't forget also that at least 6 parades have been re-routed from the lower ormeau


>due to the threat of violence - is that law-abiding ?

>Gervais

But why march down the lower ormeau anyway. Surely it would be much more pleasent
day if the march kept to the unionist area's and avoided those republican area's.
I know that some will say tradition, we've always marched there, but times change
and you change with them if you've got any sense. The orange order could make a
valuable contribution to the peace process by agreeing to re-route all the marches
away from republican area's. It's would cost the unionist cause nothing but a bit
of pride and mean a lot to the ordinary catholic citizen

Stephen R Cooper
Oxford

PS: Sorry for cutting so much of the preceeding postings, but this news product
wont let you post unless you write at least as much as you quote.

===============================================================================
The above article is the personal view of the poster and should not be
considered as an official comment from the JET Joint Undertaking
===============================================================================

GervaisHenderson

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Jul 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/18/95
to

It would also prevent the marchers from passing the streets where some of them
live - which is also on the lower ormeau road.

Did you not see the pictures of the crowds welcoming the parade on the 12th further
down the road ?

Gervais


Stephen Cooper

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Jul 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/18/95
to
GervaisHenderson <ghend...@bfsec.bt.co.uk> writes:

>Gervais

Yes I saw the pictures, and I understand that if the marches were re-routed in the
way I suggested, that they would not be able to visit every unionist enclave. But
is is necessary to march through every enclave, I can't believe that the residents
of these area's will feel any more isolated just because there was no orange march
through theme every year.

Maybe a single mass march, through the city centre of Belfast would be the answer,
with the families of those marching lining the route cheering. Make a fun day out
of it, end the march in a park with a picnic and fun-fair for the whole family. It
would make the 12th a national day that the whole N.I community can become part of
and enjoy.

I doubt if N.I will ever become part of the republic. The nearest it will come to
this is as a region of a united europe, along side the republic and the regions of
england, scotland and the rest of the E.U. But on the other side the catholics are
not going to disapear, they are part of the community as well, both protestant and
catholic are the same people and have more in common with each other than with any
one else, their two sides of the same coin. Why not forget the past and move into
the future together ignoring those that call for intolerace from both sides. Its a
changing world out there and you'll need to work together if your to survive in it
and prosper.

The current peace process is Ulsters last chance. If this fails, I doubt N.I will
remain part of the U.K very much longer, it already cost a disproportionate amount
of treasury funds and cutting it free to settle it's own future would give us more
than a couple of pence off income tax. Personally I'd be all for ending the orange
marches totally, but re-routing them would be a good compromise. But this needs to
done quickly, before those in Westminster do it for the orange men as a sop to the
republican population. If the orange order changes the route, of it's own accord,
they gain as it will be the republicans turn to compromise then. But if they wait
for the government to do it they will loose the traditional routes for nothing and
if they fight, they will only bring the end of the union with G.B to an end all of
the quicker.

Stephen R Cooper
Oxford

Gerry Mulvenna

unread,
Jul 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/18/95
to
In article <DBwHs...@bfsec.bt.co.uk>
ggri...@bfsec.bt.co.uk "George Griffin" writes:

>In article <DBvo9...@tigger.jvnc.net>, ala...@rohmhaas.com says...


>>!In the immediate aftermath of the killings an unmarked police car
>>!arrived on the scene and gave chase as the IRA attackers made their
>>!getaway. Shots were fired by the RUC but no one was hit. The gunmen
>>!abandoned their car in the nationalist Lower Ormeau area. When the
>>!police arrived seconds later they were surrounded by an angry crowd.
>>!This later prompted the UFF to issue a threat against the nationalists
>>!of the area. A community leader later explained that the people were
>>!not aware that a shooting had taken place, nor that the RUC were in
>>!pursuit of the killers. He claimed that it was thought the police had
>>!"gone on the rampage".
>

>What was the point of posting the above ? Was it to prove it was alright
>to kill these two men because they were alleged loyalists ? Or to say it
>was alright to block the pursuit of the murders because "they thought the
>police were on the rampage" ?

George did you actually read the Irish Emigrant account that Aengus posted?
To me it seems quite clear, the point of posting it was to expose the myth
that the Lower Ormeau people were an integral part of the double murder
operation.

The RUC arrived with guns blaring in an unmarked car and received an
understandably hostile welcome from people who were most likely unaware
that any murders had taken place.

>Looks to me as if you are trying to justify the actions of the people in
>tacit support of the IRA. Is that really what you mean ?

Looks to me that you didn't read all the account.
--
Gerry Mulvenna Email: ge...@mulvenna.demon.co.uk
Edinburgh, Scotland WWW: http://www.os.qub.ac.uk/staff/gmulvenn.html

John Monk

unread,
Jul 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/18/95
to
In article <806071...@mulvenna.demon.co.uk>, Ge...@mulvenna.demon.co.uk
says...

>
>In article <DBwHs...@bfsec.bt.co.uk>
> ggri...@bfsec.bt.co.uk "George Griffin" writes:

(and I snipped it)

C'mon guys. I thought soc.culture.celtic was the appropriate site for
pointless bloody arguments about who's done what to whom in Ireland?

Him Again


GervaisHenderson

unread,
Jul 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/18/95
to

If you think Orange marches should be stopped then what kind of marches should
be allowed in the UK? I'm sure you can find somebody who would disagree.

You don't seem to have got the point of my post - the Lower Ormeau road as a whole
is not a nationalist area, part of it a 'loyalist' area.

Your description about what the 12th parade should be like is actually very accurate
to what does happen (except the fun fair - instead they have a religious service
followed by (and separately) some political speeches).

Gervais


Stephen Cooper

unread,
Jul 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/18/95
to
GervaisHenderson <ghend...@bfsec.bt.co.uk> writes:


>If you think Orange marches should be stopped then what kind of marches should
>be allowed in the UK? I'm sure you can find somebody who would disagree.

I don't think any marches should be banned, just that there routes should take
account of the area's that the march goes through. ie: a NF march would be O.K
as long as it did not go through area's with a high ethnic content. So an N.F
march through suburbia O.K, through Notting Hilll, NOT O.K

>You don't seem to have got the point of my post - the Lower Ormeau road as a whole
>is not a nationalist area, part of it a 'loyalist' area.

Yes and those area's that can be reached without marching for a significant
period through catholic area's would be O.K, just avoid those unionist area's
that would require marching for more than say 30 seconds through catholic area's

>Your description about what the 12th parade should be like is actually very accurate
>to what does happen (except the fun fair - instead they have a religious service
>followed by (and separately) some political speeches).

>Gervais

Why political speeches. I thought the Orange marches were a celebration of an
historic event. Surely it would be better to have a politics free occasion with
a religous service and some other family orientated events. Why bring politics
into it, you don't get political speaches at the cenotaph each year. Just a
quit respective religous ceremony and a march, but no political speaches.

Stephen Cooper

unread,
Jul 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/18/95
to
GervaisHenderson <ghend...@bfsec.bt.co.uk> writes:


>If you think Orange marches should be stopped then what kind of marches should
>be allowed in the UK? I'm sure you can find somebody who would disagree.

>Gervais

I should have added to my last post that by ending the orange marches, I had
ment voluntarely, as I thought that by giving up what today is seen as a bit
of an anachranism, the unionist could get something from the nationalists
that was of more practical use in the 20th Century. But that I accepted that
there would be a lot of the older generation who could not accept giving up
the marches entirely, and that voluntarely re-routing the marches would be
a worthwhile compromise.

Steve Howie

unread,
Jul 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/18/95
to
Stephen Cooper (s...@jet.uk) wrote:
: GervaisHenderson <ghend...@bfsec.bt.co.uk> writes:


[ much Catholic vs. Protestant spew deleted... ]

:
: But why march down the lower ormeau anyway. Surely it would be much more pleasent


: day if the march kept to the unionist area's and avoided those republican area's.
: I know that some will say tradition, we've always marched there, but times change
: and you change with them if you've got any sense. The orange order could make a
: valuable contribution to the peace process by agreeing to re-route all the marches
: away from republican area's. It's would cost the unionist cause nothing but a bit
: of pride and mean a lot to the ordinary catholic citizen

:


One more bloody time .......

EDIT YOUR F*CKING NEWSGROUP: AND FOLLOWUP: HEADERS

We are not interested in this sectarian garbage in soc.culture.scottish.

Followups to soc.culture.irish

Ranjit Mathews

unread,
Jul 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/18/95
to
Under present conditions, a (peaceful) unified Ireland might not be feasible.
A BeNeLux style customs union with complete political independence between
Dublin and Belfast in the short term and increasing co-operation in the long
term might be a goal worth striving for. In order for this to work, however,
steps will have to be taken (possibly under the oversight of the EEC or UN) to
ensure that one segment of the population isn't cut out of the political
process.

Gervase Webb

unread,
Jul 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/18/95
to
In article <DBv1C...@bfsec.bt.co.uk>, GervaisHenderson
<ghend...@bfsec.bt.co.uk> wrote:


> The reason for the police action is due to the threat of violence by
those in the lower ormeau who are not law-abiding. Not every resident in

those streets are law abiding...

Absoluttely right, but why should the majority suffer for the actions of a
minority? And how does one define "law-abiding"? It could be said that
someone like Gerard Rice, who has convictions for terrorist offences,
could be regarded as not law-abiding, yet he was the man more than any
other who helped to keep the Catholic protest peaceful when the Orangemen
returned on Wednesday evening.
His control of the situation; urging all those present to protest
peacefully and show dignity while the Orange supporters were hurling abuse
and the RUC were continually pushing forward and prodding people with
their batons was an example to both sides of the sectarian divide.
If only all non law-abiding people could be quite so restrained!
And as for the marchers' restraint, it wasn't much in evidence when they
passed the betting shop on the Lower Ormeau where five Catholics were shot
dead in 1992. they had been asked to still the music as a mark of respect,
but instead played all the more loudly - and with some of the marchers
grinning and holding up five fingers to the windows of the houses nearby.
Call that restrained?

--
Gervase Webb

George Griffin

unread,
Jul 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/18/95
to
>In article <DBv1C...@bfsec.bt.co.uk>,
> GervaisHenderson <ghend...@bfsec.bt.co.uk> wrote:
>>The reason for the police action is due to the threat of violence by those
>>in the
>>lower ormeau who are not law-abiding. Not every resident in those streets
>>are law
>>abiding e.g. last july IRA gunmen disappeared in those streets after
>>murdering
>>two protestants. Residents blocked the RUC from apprehending the gunmen.
>>Are those
>>people law-abiding ?
>
>This has come up a couple of times recently. For those of you who don't
>recall the incident in question, here's how the Irish Emigrant of August
>8th 1994 reported the incident:
>
>! ORMEAU ROAD SHOOTING
>!
>!The two men who were shot dead in last Sunday evening's IRA attack on
>!the Ormeau Road were named as Joe Bratty (33) and Raymond Elder (32),
>!both from the area. On at least eight previous occasions attempts were
>!made to kill Mr Bratty. Six months ago he received gunshot wounds to
>!the groin and hand. He was reported to be the commander of the UFF in
>!the Ormeau area. There was some disagreement over Mr Elder's alleged
>!paramilitary involvement. At one point he was charged in connection
>!with the killing of five Catholics at Sean Graham's bookies office but
>!the charges were dropped for lack of evidence. His family issued a
>!statement, through Ian Paisley Jnr, claiming that he was not associated
>!with paramilitaries in any way, but the media was not convinced.
>!Whatever associations the two men had, their killers came in for severe
>!criticism from all sides, with the exception of Sinn Fein.
>!
>!In the immediate aftermath of the killings an unmarked police car
>!arrived on the scene and gave chase as the IRA attackers made their
>!getaway. Shots were fired by the RUC but no one was hit. The gunmen
>!abandoned their car in the nationalist Lower Ormeau area. When the
>!police arrived seconds later they were surrounded by an angry crowd.
>!This later prompted the UFF to issue a threat against the nationalists
>!of the area. A community leader later explained that the people were
>!not aware that a shooting had taken place, nor that the RUC were in
>!pursuit of the killers. He claimed that it was thought the police had
>!"gone on the rampage".

What was the point of posting the above ? Was it to prove it was alright
to kill these two men because they were alleged loyalists ? Or to say it
was alright to block the pursuit of the murders because "they thought the
police were on the rampage" ?

Looks to me as if you are trying to justify the actions of the people in


tacit support of the IRA. Is that really what you mean ?

--
************************************************
George Griffin
Views expressed here do not represent those of
my employer. They may represent my views but I
may deny them at at later time.
************************************************


Taylor Ian Christopher

unread,
Jul 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/18/95
to
Gervase Webb (g_w...@pavilion.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <3u5jg5$k...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, khs...@aol.com (KHSkill) wrote:
:
: >How about some respect for diversity and cultural pluralism?
: > Aren't the Ulster Prods entitled to their day in the sun in North America,
: > too?
: Sure, but what would the reaction in Boston and Chicago be if they started
: marching through Catholic areas hurling abuse and playing The Sash as
: loudly as they could.
: As someone who was in both Portadown and the Lower Ormeau Road last week
: (as a reporter) I found the behaviour of the Orangement and their odious
: hangers-on provocative and unpleasant in the extreme, and felt that the
: Nationalists behaved with commendable restraint.
: No-one objects to expressions of culture and tradition, but when they are
: used deliberately to antagonise a minority community then any sensible
: person should object.
: Last Wednesday the law-abiding people of the Lower Ormeau Road were
: subject to a virtual curfew by the RUC, forbidden even to go out and get a

: pint of milk, just so the Orangemen could strut down their street. As one
: put it: "It's like someone you don't like trying to hold a party in your
: home and then chucking you out."
: Astonishingly, the Protestants failed to see this. Instead they went to
: great pains to present some Ghanaian Orangemen as examples of the
: tolerance of gthe Order. The effect was somewhat blunted for me as I tried
: to interview one when a bunch of teenagers started singing "I'd rather be
: a nigger than a Taig"!
: GW
:
: --
: Gervase Web

>> Gee, with a name like "Gervaise" I wonder what foot you kick with?
And do you honestly think that because a bunch of wee lads were singing
a stupid ditty (in Ulster with its insignificant amount of Coloureds
this probably meant nothing to them) that the Orange Order is now
racist? BTW "law-abiding people of the Lower Ormeau Road"? Do me a
favour pal.


b

Steve Howie

unread,
Jul 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/18/95
to
You're NOT LISTENING are you??? Get this SECTARIAN CRAP back to
SOC.CULTURE.IRISH where it belongs. REMOVE soc.culture.scottish from your
newsgroup and followup lines. This getting is quite annoying.

Thank you.

Aengus Lawlor (ala...@rohmhaas.com) wrote:
: In article <DBv1C...@bfsec.bt.co.uk>,

: !

: !Both funerals passed off peacefully although the media was warned by
: !locals not to come too close and not to use cameras. There were also
: !complaints that shopowners along the routes of the funeral processions
: !were intimidated into closing their premises.

:
:
:
: >Don't forget also that at least 6 parades have been re-routed from the
: >lower ormeau
: >due to the threat of violence - is that law-abiding ?
:
: I'm not sure what your point is, Gervais? Is there any side in the conflict

: in NI that hasn't seen some people prepared to use violence of various

: levels to support it? Or are you suggesting that the people of the Lower
: Ormeau are considerably less law-abiding than anyone else in Belfast?


:
: >Gervais
: >
: Aengus
:
: --
: ala...@rohmhaas.com (preferred) | Aengus Lawlor
: ala...@ejovax.enet.dec.com (secondary) | (who used to be ala...@dit.ie)
: An bhfuil cead agam dul amok? |
: (For the record, neither Rohm & Haas nor Digital necessarily agree with me).

--

Gervais Henderson

unread,
Jul 19, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/19/95
to
g_w...@pavilion.co.uk (Gervase Webb) wrote:

>And as for the marchers' restraint, it wasn't much in evidence when they
>passed the betting shop on the Lower Ormeau where five Catholics were shot
>dead in 1992. they had been asked to still the music as a mark of respect,
>but instead played all the more loudly - and with some of the marchers
>grinning and holding up five fingers to the windows of the houses nearby.
>Call that restrained?
>
>--
>Gervase Webb

Did this happen last Wednesday - if it did I didn't see any mention of it on the
news - or are you referring to the parade in 1992?

Gervais








Keith

unread,
Jul 19, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/19/95
to
Get a life Miss Fenian Mckay. Long live donaghadee and protestantism in
Northern Ireland.In article <3u1apc$b...@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>,
mc...@mcmaster.ca says...
>
>khs...@aol.com (KHSkill) wrote:
>>
>> The Washington metropolitan area joins the great city of
Baltimore in
>> this salute to William III. Truly a monarch of glorious and immortal
>> memory! Get those bonfires going! Dust off the Lambeg drums! Join
the
>> move to push back July 4 to July 12!
>> Kenneth S.
>
>Yes, why keep the antagonism in Ireland and Glasgow, the whole
>world can now join in this pointless occasion. Get over it !
>
>Muriel McKay
>


Scott Ramsay

unread,
Jul 20, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/20/95
to
is it not time we left all this bigoted crap where it belongs in the past. Its
not even our country and most of the stupid bastards who spout this crap have'
nt even been to Ireland they just want to sink to the depths with the other
bigoted so - called football fans in Glasgow. IF YOU REALLY WANT TO REDEEM
YOURSELVES START SUPPORTING A DECENT TEAM : DUNDEE " UP THE DARK BLUES!!!"


Scott Ramsay

unread,
Jul 20, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/20/95
to

Steve Glover

unread,
Jul 20, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/20/95
to
In article <DByCM...@madge1.madge.co.uk>,
Jill Baker PJbakerT-SP <jba...@madge1.madge.co.uk> wrote:
>Stephen Cooper (s...@jet.uk) wrote:
>
>: I don't think any marches should be banned, just that there routes should take

>: account of the area's that the march goes through. ie: a NF march would be O.K
>: as long as it did not go through area's with a high ethnic content. So an N.F
>: march through suburbia O.K, through Notting Hilll, NOT O.K

>Just an aside, but...

>Did you know that the political party formerly known as the National Front
>has now changed its name to the National Democrats. (I know - disgusting
>isn't it?), so their initials are now ND, not NF.

Sickening, indeed. Did you notice the implied racism above? (Obviously
no 'ethnics' in 'suburbia')

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Soliciting for Intersection issue of Etranger: topics include morality in
works of people called Smith or about people called Smith; net stuff of likely
interest to SF fans, art... Deadline 15-JUL-1995: steve_...@hicom.lut.ac.uk

Muriel McKay

unread,
Jul 20, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/20/95
to
ke...@enerco.co.nz (Keith) wrote:
>
> Get a life Miss Fenian Mckay. Long live donaghadee and protestantism in
> Northern Ireland.In article <3u1apc$b...@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>,
> mc...@mcmaster.ca says...
> >
What an idiotic statement. I'm no fenian. not all Protestants are
Orange.

Muriel McKay

Richard Rostrom

unread,
Jul 21, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/21/95
to
Matthew Woodford (m...@coventry.ac.uk) wrote:

: William III's horse fell, killing him, when it put it's foot in a mole-hill.
: Tories invented a new drink to celebrate his death and toast the 'little
: gentleman in black velvet' who accomplished the deed. Black velvet: guiness and
: champagne, a very good drink.

"Black Velvet" could not have been mixed by 18th century Jacobites. The
_methode champenoise_ for the production of sparkling wine wasn't
developed till the early 1800s. There may have been stout, but no
champagne.


Scott Ramsay

unread,
Jul 21, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/21/95
to

Sorry about this posting. This is what happens when you let your girlfriend
unsupervised access to your userid!

Rest assured that it will not happen again.

Once again, sorry.


KHSkill

unread,
Jul 22, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/22/95
to
I've been away on vacation (not exactly the "twelfth week," but
almost -- for those who are into traditions). I am concerned to see what
has become in this thread of some of what were intended to be frivolous
comments by me about King Billy. Perhaps my time in Belfast (many years
ago) had fixed in my mind the idea that King Billy and the LOL were mostly
joking matters. They WERE, in my day -- at least among educated people --
and I've heard what I still consider to be some very good Orange and Green
jokes during visits to Belfast.
However, for the record, I should say that, if it were up to me (and
I'm a Protestant) I'd ban all the marching. If that can't be done, then
I'd like to see it rerouted away from neighborhoods where there would be
trouble. I know some of the areas mentioned in this thread quite well. I
cannot see what purpose is served by antagonizing people in the way the
Orange marches do.
When I was a child in Belfast in the forties and fifties, I found a
great deal of what went on around July 12 quite incomprehensible, and in
some ways intimidating. (For that matter, I never understood why the
American Civil Liberties Union thought it was important to protect the
rights of American nazis to march through a Jewish neighborhood in Skokie,
Illinois.) I don't understand what legitimate reason can be made for
Orange marchers to go through Catholic neighborhoods.
There was an expression that was quite common when I was a child --
"trailing your coat," meaning provoking people by doing things that would
be certain to cause offense, and would lead to some kind of reaction. I
don't hear the expression any more, but the activity seems still to be
popular.
Kenneth S.

Ron Lowe

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Jul 24, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/24/95
to
In article <3tue4c$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
new...@aol.com (New Soul) wrote:
>I suppose next you guys will be hailing the slaughter of Native Americans
>by the calvary or various lynchings by the Klu Klux Klan. Or maybe you
>will celebrate the actions of Serbs against Croats.
>
>I can't believe this bold and unashamed heralding of King Billy. Call me
>a dumb American, but I find it disgusting.

The defeat of James 2nd by William of Orange was the final nail in the coffin
of the divine right of monarchs in Britain. Surely no democrat can support
divine rights? In many european countries he's a hero because he stood up to (
and defeated on occasions ) the expansionism of France's Louis 14th ( which is
why the Pope supported him ). Whatever his faults ( and there were many ) he
was a damn site better than the alternative.

Comparisons with slaughter of native americans, KKK lynchings, and actions on
Bosnians by Serbs are frankly ridiculous.

Nothing personal here; it looks like American knowledge of european history is
pretty poor.

Ron.

Dave Morning

unread,
Jul 24, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/24/95
to
In article <3v05r5$8...@io.salford.ac.uk>, R.L...@ais.salford.ac.uk (Ron
Lowe) wrote:

> In article <3tue4c$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> new...@aol.com (New Soul) wrote:
> >I suppose next you guys will be hailing the slaughter of Native Americans
> >by the calvary or various lynchings by the Klu Klux Klan. Or maybe you
> >will celebrate the actions of Serbs against Croats.
> >
> >I can't believe this bold and unashamed heralding of King Billy. Call me
> >a dumb American, but I find it disgusting.
>
> The defeat of James 2nd by William of Orange was the final nail in the coffin
> of the divine right of monarchs in Britain. Surely no democrat can support
> divine rights? In many european countries he's a hero because he stood
up to (
> and defeated on occasions ) the expansionism of France's Louis 14th (
which is
> why the Pope supported him ). Whatever his faults ( and there were many ) he
> was a damn site better than the alternative.

Better for whom, exactly? Better for, say, non-CofE worshippers like Quakers
etc?



> Comparisons with slaughter of native americans, KKK lynchings, and actions on
> Bosnians by Serbs are frankly ridiculous.

Why? The arrival of King Billy and the so-called Bill of Rights, which
specifically referred to arming 'good protestants' signalled the start of
anti-catholic bigotry and lynchings throughout Britain. All rights were
removed from anyone who was a Catholic and anyone suspected of being a
Catholic priest was strung up from the nearest tree by roaming mobs. Catholic
worship was banned and, even today, some vestiges of this supposed Bill of
Rights lingers on with Catholics barred from high office - specifically the
monarchy - in Britain. It was only with the Catholic Emancipation act over
100 years later that catholics in Britain were given ANY say in the country.
How can ANYONE describe this as 'democratic'?

> Nothing personal here; it looks like American knowledge of european
history is
> pretty poor.

Yours doesn't look much better!

John Monk

unread,
Jul 26, 1995, 3:00:00 AM7/26/95
to
In article <dam-240795...@kerrera.dcs.gla.ac.uk>, d...@dcs.gla.ac.uk
says...
(snip)

>> The defeat of James 2nd by William of Orange was the final nail in the
>> coffin of the divine right of monarchs in Britain. Surely no democrat can
>> support divine rights? In many european countries he's a hero because he

>> stood up to (and defeated on occasions ) the expansionism of France's >>
>> Louis 14th (which is why the Pope supported him ). Whatever his faults (
>> and here were many ) he was a damn site better than the alternative.


>
>Better for whom, exactly? Better for, say, non-CofE worshippers like
>Quakers etc?

Oh much better for my ancestors - who were MacDonalds of Glencoe. Oh yes,
many's the year when we march up and down the street and thank King Billy
for his generous act of ordering the slaughter of our entire family.
(sarcasm lock off).

Him Again


Dermot McNally

unread,
Aug 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/9/95
to
In article <DBwJn...@hkuxb.hku.hk>, ictaylor@hkusua (Taylor Ian
Christopher) wrote:

>And do you honestly think that because a bunch of wee lads were singing
>a stupid ditty (in Ulster with its insignificant amount of Coloureds
>this probably meant nothing to them) that the Orange Order is now
>racist?

Well, I wouldn't make that assumption based on that ditty, but it would not
surprise me in the least to find racism within the Orange Order. Not
fundamental to official policy, of course, but I bet it exists.

>BTW "law-abiding people of the Lower Ormeau Road"? Do me a
>favour pal.

How do you mean? Are you saying that there are not any law abiding people
on the Lower Ormeau Road? Do you consider this a reasonable suggestion?

Dermot


-----------------------------------------------------------
Dermot McNally (EI6DNB), der...@everest.internet-eireann.ie
8920...@dcu.ie, Phone +353-1-8252074 Mobile +353-88-602808

Saying "Visual Basic is alright for prototyping" is a programmer's
equivalent of saying "I didn't inhale".


Taylor Ian Christopher

unread,
Aug 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/11/95
to
Dermot McNally (der...@everest.internet-eireann.ie) wrote:
: In article <DBwJn...@hkuxb.hku.hk>, ictaylor@hkusua (Taylor Ian

: Christopher) wrote:
:
: >And do you honestly think that because a bunch of wee lads were singing
: >a stupid ditty (in Ulster with its insignificant amount of Coloureds
: >this probably meant nothing to them) that the Orange Order is now
: >racist?
:
: Well, I wouldn't make that assumption based on that ditty, but it would not
: surprise me in the least to find racism within the Orange Order. Not
: fundamental to official policy, of course, but I bet it exists.

>> Listen pal, the Orange Order is an international organisation with
thousands of menbers. Of course you are going to find racists in it
somewhere. *Any* organisation that big will probably have its collection
of racists. *But* I would just like to point out that the LOL has a
large number of members in both Togo and Ghana (clue: they're in Africa
and <hushed voice> a bit dark) and it also has lodges in British America
(Canada) run by and exclusively for native Americans. Mohawks I believe.
:
: >BTW "law-abiding people of the Lower Ormeau Road"? Do me a


: >favour pal.
:
: How do you mean? Are you saying that there are not any law abiding people
: on the Lower Ormeau Road? Do you consider this a reasonable suggestion?

>> My suggestion is that there are numerable law-abiding people on the
Road. But, in the context of the posting, the above phrase was put
forward to suggest that somehow the residents were innocent lambs with
no fault on their part. I stand by my original post and say that that is
rubbish.
:
: Dermot

:

Timothy Murphy

unread,
Aug 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/12/95
to
ictaylor@hkusua (Taylor Ian Christopher) writes:

> Listen pal, the Orange Order is an international organisation with
>thousands of menbers.

Are any of them Catholic?

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: t...@maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

George Griffin

unread,
Aug 15, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/15/95
to
In article <40i6sj$4...@bell.maths.tcd.ie>, t...@maths.tcd.ie says...

>
>ictaylor@hkusua (Taylor Ian Christopher) writes:
>
>> Listen pal, the Orange Order is an international organisation with
>>thousands of menbers.
>
>Are any of them Catholic?
>
They may be but I think they'd be in the wrong organisation. The Orange
Order has, as part of its aims, the promotion of the protestant religion.

Why ask if any are catholic ? Trying to start a fight :)

Timothy Murphy

unread,
Aug 16, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/16/95
to
ggri...@bfsec.bt.co.uk (George Griffin) writes:

>>> Listen pal, the Orange Order is an international organisation with
>>>thousands of menbers.
>>
>>Are any of them Catholic?

>Why ask if any are catholic ? Trying to start a fight :)

Just that the original poster was trying to show
how broad-minded the Orand Order was --
I was merely pointing out that there were limits to its toleration.

Actually, the Orange Order has close relations with the OUP;
so if it excludes catholics this is a matter of political significance.

Mr Gavin Moran

unread,
Aug 17, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/17/95
to
Timothy Murphy (t...@maths.tcd.ie) wrote:
: ggri...@bfsec.bt.co.uk (George Griffin) writes:

: >>> Listen pal, the Orange Order is an international organisation with
: >>>thousands of menbers.
: >>
: >>Are any of them Catholic?

: >Why ask if any are catholic ? Trying to start a fight :)

: Just that the original poster was trying to show
: how broad-minded the Orand Order was --
: I was merely pointing out that there were limits to its toleration.

: Actually, the Orange Order has close relations with the OUP;
: so if it excludes catholics this is a matter of political significance.

Yes, the Order can send sopmething like 190 candidates to any party
conference. Some UUP members have expressed concern that their parties
links with the OO are causing problems attracting catholic support.

gavan
--
email: G.M...@ee.qub.ac.uk | 'There can be only one!'
or gmo...@nyx.cs.du.edu | - The Highlander

jmurphy

unread,
Aug 21, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/21/95
to
>> Listen pal, the Orange Order is an international organisation with
thousands of menbers. Of course you are going to find racists in it
somewhere. *Any* organisation that big will probably have its collection
of racists. *But* I would just like to point out that the LOL has a
large number of members in both Togo and Ghana (clue: they're in Africa
and <hushed voice> a bit dark) and it also has lodges in British America
(Canada) run by and exclusively for native Americans. Mohawks I believe.
:

This is true, apparently. My father used to work in the offshore oil industry
in the North Sea and one day a Native American crane operator asked him if he
could tell him how to get to "Mother Kilwinning"!! Living quite close to
Kilwinning, he helped him on his way. Mind you, I don't know what they made of
him down in Ayrshire's burgh of culture (Copyright Tom Shields' Diary).


George Griffin

unread,
Aug 21, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/21/95
to
In article <40tjov$g...@bell.maths.tcd.ie>, t...@maths.tcd.ie says...

>
>ggri...@bfsec.bt.co.uk (George Griffin) writes:
>
>>>> Listen pal, the Orange Order is an international organisation with
>>>>thousands of menbers.
>>>
>>>Are any of them Catholic?
>
>>Why ask if any are catholic ? Trying to start a fight :)
>
>Just that the original poster was trying to show
>how broad-minded the Orand Order was --
>I was merely pointing out that there were limits to its toleration.
>
If we are comparing it to the AOH then it is more tolerant in that the
AOH requires its members to be Irish, Catholic and Male (at least thats
what has been reported in the AOH thread).

The OO has lodges which contain women (shock horror :) ), Africans,
and Native Americans (Indians to the non politically correct out there).
So they are more tolerant than some organisations.

George Griffin

unread,
Aug 21, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/21/95
to
In article <40tjov$g...@bell.maths.tcd.ie>, t...@maths.tcd.ie says...
>
>ggri...@bfsec.bt.co.uk (George Griffin) writes:
>
>>>> Listen pal, the Orange Order is an international organisation with
>>>>thousands of menbers.
>>>
>>>Are any of them Catholic?
>
>>Why ask if any are catholic ? Trying to start a fight :)
>
>Just that the original poster was trying to show
>how broad-minded the Orand Order was --
>I was merely pointing out that there were limits to its toleration.
>
>Actually, the Orange Order has close relations with the OUP;
>so if it excludes catholics this is a matter of political significance.
>
To be precise about it, the Orange Order would exclude Catholics as it
has, as part of its reason for being, a desire to support the Protestant
Regligon. I don't think it has a clause which says you cannot join if you
are a catholic, more in the line of supporting the protestant faith.

I also have seen recently some discussion about starting discussions to
loosen the ties between the Orange Order and the Ulster Unionist Party.
There did not seem to be a large outcry about it.

Pearse Ward

unread,
Aug 21, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/21/95
to
In article <DDntx...@bfsec.bt.co.uk>, ggri...@bfsec.bt.co.uk (George
Griffin) wrote:


> To be precise about it, the Orange Order would exclude Catholics as it
> has, as part of its reason for being, a desire to support the Protestant
> Regligon. I don't think it has a clause which says you cannot join if you
> are a catholic, more in the line of supporting the protestant faith.
>

The Orange Order has a clause barring memebership to anyone who is
Catholic or has close relatives who are Catholic.

How closely it is enforced, I don't know, but I doubt that there has ever
been a Ctholic member of the ORange Order

Pearse

--
Pearse Ward
Dep't Veterinary Microbiology
Western College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Saskatchewan
Saskatoon, SK

---------- The road to hell is paved with good intentions ----------

Timothy Murphy

unread,
Aug 24, 1995, 3:00:00 AM8/24/95
to
ggri...@bfsec.bt.co.uk (George Griffin) writes:

>If we are comparing it to the AOH then it is more tolerant in that the
>AOH requires its members to be Irish, Catholic and Male (at least thats
>what has been reported in the AOH thread).

>The OO has lodges which contain women (shock horror :) ), Africans,
>and Native Americans (Indians to the non politically correct out there).
>So they are more tolerant than some organisations.

The important difference between the AOH and the Orange Order
is not in their relative degrees of bigotry,
but in the fact that the OO has a structural connection
with the Official Unionist Party.

If the AOH had a similar connection with the SDLP,
I for one would find it just as reprehensible.

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