This newsgroup needs to be moderated...
Stoney Edwards
The posts here are becoming increasingly stupid...
Anyone else here think this NG should be self-moderated?...
--
QUOTE: <No words of wisdom for today, kiddies.>
Stephen S. Edwards II -- p h l a x i o r @ p r i m e n e t . c o m
Homepage: http://www.primenet.com/~phlaxior (under construction)
Pub FTP: ftp://ftp.primenet.com/users/p/phlaxior
Stoney Edwards
Robin S. Socha <ro...@franck.pc.uni-koeln.de> wrote:
: Get a Real Newsreader, Stoney }:->
Hey!... Talk about stealing lines!... :)
Acutally, I use tin, but I am having a bit of difficulty, since:
1.) I use tin thru an i386 telnet proxy with my ISP.
2.) Their man page is quite unhelpful.
3.) I'd install tin on my Linux box, but with a 56k
max connection, it's dog slow. :P
: Add some bells and whistles with inn, a little gnus-junk.el and mean
: means - and you're there. Scoring rules...
Too bad I don't know your joys. :)
Actually, I'm going to run tin on my box anyway... I'm tired of
having to sift thru articles. I've just been too busy
remodeling my house to do so. :P
Robin S. Socha
> "SE" == Stoney Edwards <phla...@primenet.com> writes:
SE> The posts here are becoming increasingly stupid... Anyone else
SE> here think this NG should be self-moderated?...
Get a Real Newsreader, Stoney }:->
;;* This function should be called from the summary buffer with point
;;* on the article to nuke. It puts a rule in ~/News/SPAMMERS to lower
;;* scores of author
;;* It needs an entry in all.SCORE of (files "/usr/agb/News/SPAMMERS").
;; I changed it to only add the from line.
(defun gnus-scum-expunge ()
"Remove this spammer from existance as much as possible."
(interactive)
(let* ((hdr (gnus-summary-article-header))
(subj (aref hdr 1))
(auth (aref hdr 2))
(artid (aref hdr 4))
(atsign (string-match "@" artid))
(host (substring artid (+ atsign 1) (- (length artid) 1)))
(oldscfile gnus-current-score-file))
;; Change to our spammer score file
(gnus-score-change-score-file "SPAMMERS")
;; Add our horrible spammer scores
(gnus-summary-score-entry "Subject" subj 'S' -1000 nil)
(gnus-summary-score-entry "From" auth 'S' -1001 nil)
(gnus-summary-score-entry "Message-ID" host 'S' -1000 nil)
;; Change back to old current score file
(gnus-score-change-score-file oldscfile)
(gnus-score-save)))
;;* quick nuke people :-)
(global-set-key "\C-cx" 'gnus-scum-expunge)
Add some bells and whistles with inn, a little gnus-junk.el and mean
means - and you're there. Scoring rules...
Cheers,
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University
Customer: "I'm using Windows 95" Tech Support: "Yes..."
Customer: "My computer isn't working now" Tech Support: "Yes, you said that"
Roy Stogner
On 27 Dec 1997 15:39:00 -0700, Stoney Edwards <phla...@primenet.com> wrote:
>The posts here are becoming increasingly stupid...
>
If you want it self-moderated, nobody's stopping you.
If you would like an actual moderator, you may want to spend some time
figuring out where you're going to find someone who will bump the posts
you don't like but who will still let us all chuckle at whatever violent,
painful, or scatalogical ideas for mutilating NT CDs you think up next
week.
=-)
---
Roy Stogner
Robin S. Socha
> Regarding Re: This newsgroup needs to be moderated...;
> Stoney Edwards <phla...@primenet.com> adds:
SE> Robin S. Socha <ro...@franck.pc.uni-koeln.de> wrote:
SE> Get a Real Newsreader, Stoney }:->
SE> Hey!... Talk about stealing lines!... :)
Hmpf?
SE> Acutally, I use tin, but I am having a bit of difficulty, since:
[snipped lame excuses]
..since tin sucks, right?
> Add some bells and whistles with inn, a little gnus-junk.el and
> mean means - and you're there. Scoring rules...
SE> Too bad I don't know your joys. :)
Then install slrn instead of tin, DuDE. slrn is pretty cool, since it
knows scoring and threading. It can also fetch your news for you. It's
the second best newsreader for Linux IMO.
SE> Actually, I'm going to run tin on my box anyway... I'm tired of
SE> having to sift thru articles.
Score. Score and kill. Make that kill alone... (wish we had an NRA,
too)
SE> Homepage: http://www.primenet.com/~phlaxior (under construction)
Yeah, that chick needs some major remodelling. She's not even
naked. Shame on you, Stoney...
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University
One question: How come the .44 magnum is the worlds only usable point
and click interface ? Alan Cox
Kenneth R. Kinder
In comp.os.linux.advocacy article <684024$5...@nntp02.primenet.com> , Stoney Edwards <phla...@primenet.com> wrote:
> The posts here are becoming increasingly stupid...
> Anyone else here think this NG should be self-moderated?...
Moderated atleast to the point where SPAMMERS are removed. I think we
should stay liberal as to what is allowed to get posted.
That recent 20 or so messages of jobs should have been filtered. BTW, they
left their 800 number at the bottom of the message... ;)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth R. Kinder
K...@KenAndTed.com - http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
"Software development is caffeine, pizza, and gcc."
PGP FingerPrints: AC 63 8E FC 56 OC 6E F2 55 68 16 E4 07 62 12 32
------------------------------------------------------------------
ASgr...@nsicx.net
In <686ne7$ir1$1...@quasar.dimensional.com>, on 12/28/97
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy article <684024$5...@nntp02.primenet.com> ,
>Stoney Edwards <phla...@primenet.com> wrote: > The posts here are
>becoming increasingly stupid...
>> Anyone else here think this NG should be self-moderated?...
>Moderated atleast to the point where SPAMMERS are removed. I think we
>should stay liberal as to what is allowed to get posted.
>That recent 20 or so messages of jobs should have been filtered. BTW,
>they left their 800 number at the bottom of the message... ;)
Why not take the time to reply each post via email with a cc to the
postmaster? Not to mention I didn't see the 800 number. Maybe I need to
look for another job....
----------------------------------------------------
reply to:
grimel
@icx Sorry for the trouble, I'm just getting to much spam. .net
-----------------------------------------------------------
Brett W. McCoy
Also sprach Stoney Edwards <phla...@primenet.com>:
>The posts here are becoming increasingly stupid...
>
>Anyone else here think this NG should be self-moderated?...
They haven't gotten stupid enough to the point that moderation is
necessary. At least people more or less stay on topic and we aren't being
inundated with spam.
Brett W. McCoy
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/1038
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected."
-- The UNIX Programmer's Manual, 2nd Edition, June, 1972
Sam Trenholme
>Then install slrn instead of tin, DuDE. slrn is pretty cool, since it
>knows scoring and threading. It can also fetch your news for you. It's
>the second best newsreader for Linux IMO.
And, now, folks, the winner gets to guess what the world's best newsreader
is....
is it.... Pine? Nah, no scoring/killfiles, no real threading. Easy to
use, tho.
How about... Netscape? Only if people get in the habit of <font
size=+10><blink>posting in HTML</blink></font>. Come to think of it, that
is a <h1><em> scary </em></h1> thought.
OK, how will Forte Agent do? Rather poorly on Linux, me thinks. (Can this
run in Wabi or Wine?)
Then, the answer must be..... TRN! The king of newsreaders, and the one
I use. Then again SLRN, NN, XRN, KNEWS, and GNUS are excellent news
readers. Does mutt have a news reader?
One think Linux is missing is a decent point-and-droll newsreader. Yes,
most users need point and drool software. Sad, but true. Is KRN anywhere
near usable? Does XEmacs give GNUS a decent point-and-drool interface?
How about GNU Emacs in X mode?
- Sam
--
"You can...turn sadness into laughter" -- Sunscreem, _Love_U_More_
David M. Cook
On 30 Dec 1997 06:57:43 GMT, Sam Trenholme
<set-usenet...@reality.samiam.org> wrote:
>OK, how will Forte Agent do? Rather poorly on Linux, me thinks. (Can this
>run in Wabi or Wine?)
I've seen reports that the 16-bit version runs well under both.
>Then, the answer must be..... TRN!
Nope, SLRN. I was a trn fan util I started using SLRN. SLRN has mouse
support and runs well in an rxvt. It doesn't have a mouse-based config, but
the rc file setup is very straightforward.
Dave Cook
Robin S. Socha
> "ST" == Sam Trenholme writes:
>> I wrote:
>> install slrn instead of tin [...] It's the second best newsreader
>> for Linux IMO.
ST> And, now, folks, the winner gets to guess what the world's best
ST> newsreader is.... is it.... Pine? Nah, no scoring/killfiles, no
ST> real threading. Easy to use, tho.
Not. Pine sucks big time as a newsreader. Come to think of it, it
sucks as a mailreader, too.
ST> How about... Netscape? Only if people get in the habit of <font
ST> size=+10><blink>posting in HTML</blink></font>. Come to think of
ST> size=+10>it, that is a <h1><em> scary </em></h1> thought.
Your HTML skills need refinement, Sam. This is not valid syntax...
ST> OK, how will Forte Agent do? Rather poorly on Linux, me
ST> thinks. (Can this run in Wabi or Wine?)
Sure. Finally a newsreader that crashes every 20 minutes. KeWL. Geez,
I love those Wintendo apps.
ST> Then, the answer must be..... TRN! The king of newsreaders, and
ST> the one I use. Then again SLRN, NN, XRN, KNEWS, and GNUS are
ST> excellent news readers.
Gnus is the most powerful newsreader there is. It's also the most
powerful mailreader there is. Grab my setup off my website and check
it out. There won't be anything you'll miss except IMAP (which is
being implemented) and offline capability (which works reasonably well
already, but hey! who needs this stuff if there's leafnode or inn).
Powerful meaning: inline MIME, full pgp, threading, scoring, highlighting
and a couple hundred other things. Add supercite and the bbdb and well,
there's not much more you could ask for.
ST> Does mutt have a news reader?
No. But mutt and slrn make the best CLI setup there currently is.
ST> One think Linux is missing is a decent point-and-droll newsreader.
ST> Yes, most users need point and drool software. Sad, but true. Is KRN
ST> anywhere near usable?
No.
ST> Does XEmacs give GNUS a decent point-and-drool interface?
No, provided "decent" equals braindead as in your above layout of
potential users, the problem being that no luser will get along with
XEmacs. At least XEmacs comes with some (pretty ugly) clicky-clicky
buttons for novices.
ST> How about GNU Emacs in X mode?
GNU Emacs only has a C mode (that's when RSM sends one of his marxist
phantasies to your news spool), so *we* don't use it.
Cheers,
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University
Linux was designed by computer nuts, for computer nuts.
Everyone else is just along for the ride. (Eugene O'Neil)
Roadkill On Rye
"Robin S. Socha" <ro...@franck.pc.uni-koeln.de> said:
>Gnus is the most powerful newsreader there is. It's also the most
>powerful mailreader there is. Grab my setup off my website and check
>it out. There won't be anything you'll miss except IMAP (which is
>being implemented) and offline capability (which works reasonably well
>already, but hey! who needs this stuff if there's leafnode or inn).
OK, Robin, I looked at your web site. Gnus looks like shit compared to
Forte Agent, but whatever turns you on....
--
roadkill
Robin S. Socha
> Regarding Re: What is the best newsreader?;
> road...@super.zippo.com (Roadkill On Rye) adds:
ROR> "Robin S. Socha" <ro...@franck.pc.uni-koeln.de> said:
>> Gnus is the most powerful newsreader there is. It's also the most
>> powerful mailreader there is.
ROR> OK, Robin, I looked at your web site. Gnus looks like shit
ROR> compared to Forte Agent, but whatever turns you on...
Get a life, darling... I don't give a toss about what my newsreader
looks like. I want something that does what I want. Do you have the
Forte sources? I also want a newsreader that runs reliably. If you had
"uptime" on your dos-box - what would it say?
See, the problem with you dos DuDeZ is that all you have to say in favour
of your "PrOgZ" is that they "look better" or are more "intuitive". This
is a Linux group, not a toystore. *We* don't want KeWL looks and dumbing
down by a bunch of 20 year-old pricks from Redmond. *We* want tools *we*
can work with and customize according to *our* taste.
Happy New Year,
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University
The sticker on the side of the box said "Supported Platforms: Windows 95,
Windows NT 4.0, or better", so clearly Linux was a supported platform.
George Russell
On 31 Dec 1997 14:44:16 +0100, "Robin S. Socha"
<ro...@franck.pc.uni-koeln.de> wrote:
>> Regarding Re: What is the best newsreader?;
>> road...@super.zippo.com (Roadkill On Rye) adds:
>ROR> "Robin S. Socha" <ro...@franck.pc.uni-koeln.de> said:
>
>>> Gnus is the most powerful newsreader there is. It's also the most
>>> powerful mailreader there is.
>ROR> OK, Robin, I looked at your web site. Gnus looks like shit
>ROR> compared to Forte Agent, but whatever turns you on...
Yes, in Xemacs it still looks bad
>
>Get a life, darling... I don't give a toss about what my newsreader
>looks like. I want something that does what I want
Hence forte agent as Linux still lacks an equivalent out of alpha
testing.
>. Do you have the Forte sources?
and who needs those?
>I also want a newsreader that runs reliably. If you had
>"uptime" on your dos-box - what would it say?
Less than a day, it'd be a client/workststion PC, switched off at
night and likely used for a specific time and purpose. No need to
leave it on when your finished. Irrelevent question really.
>See, the problem with you dos DuDeZ is that all you have to say in favour
>of your "PrOgZ" is that they "look better" or are more "intuitive". This
>is a Linux group, not a toystore. *We* don't want KeWL looks and dumbing
>down
Hence KDE,GNOME,CDE,Enlightenment and the diversity of Window Managers
- No Sir, We Want an OS with an Interface from the Dawn of Time
itself. Move on. Some of us want power and ease of use.
> by a bunch of 20 year-old pricks from Redmond. *We* want tools *we*
>can work with and customize according to *our* taste.
With poor documentation, obscure syntax and standardised by the
original mad scientist too.
>Happy New Year,
>Robin
Ditto. George.
Robin S. Socha
> Regarding Re: What is the best newsreader?;
GR> On 31 Dec 1997 14:44:16 +0100, "Robin S. Socha" wrote:
>>> Regarding Re: What is the best newsreader?; Roadkill On Rye adds:
[Gnus looks]
GR> Yes, in Xemacs it still looks bad
So? If you want something that looks good, lauch mIrc and
\join #teensexpix.
>> Get a life, darling... I don't give a toss about what my newsreader
>> looks like. I want something that does what I want
GR> Hence forte agent as Linux still lacks an equivalent out of alpha
GR> testing.
Gnus is not Alpha, Quassia Gnus is. However, qgnus has only crashed
on me once in 6 weeks. Say, have you ever seen a Windos system run
for even 6 days without a crash? Frottee Agent may be ok, but the
fucked-up "OS" it runs under turns belly up at least once a day - I
don't need that, you know, this is the 90s and I have /work/ to do...
>> Do you have the Forte sources?
GR> and who needs those?
Suppose you wanted some feature Frottee Agent does not offer - how
would you implement it?
>> I also want a newsreader that runs reliably. If you had "uptime" on
>> your dos-box - what would it say?
GR> Less than a day, it'd be a client/workststion PC, switched off at
GR> night and likely used for a specific time and purpose. No need to
GR> leave it on when your finished. Irrelevent question really.
See above. If the OS sucks, good apps cannot make up for that.
>> See, the problem with you dos DuDeZ is that all you have to say in
>> favour of your "PrOgZ" is that they "look better" or are more
>> "intuitive". This is a Linux group, not a toystore. *We* don't want
>> KeWL looks and dumbing down
GR> Hence KDE,GNOME,CDE,Enlightenment and the diversity of Window
GR> Managers
Enlightenment is an abomination (I never liked those Debian nazis on #E,
anyway...), CDE is an expensive memory hog, Gnome is vapourware. KDE is
a very promising step in the Right Direction (tm) IMO, because the old
GUI implementations certainly do have their shortcomings in terms of
efficiency and "ease of use", if you want to call it thus. I like KDE a
lot and if you compare it to the dos 7.0 GUI, you'll find that it is a
lot more intelligent and *vomit* integrated.
GR> - No Sir, We Want an OS with an Interface from the Dawn of Time
GR> itself. Move on. Some of us want power and ease of use.
"ease of use"... Hmmm... don't mention the e-word :-/ I've seen far
more fscked-up postings by Windos users than by Linux users. Netscape,
Forte... they may be "intuitive" or "easy to use" with respect to
shoveling _some_thing into the net, but they don't force you to read
the docs. In this case, "eou" certainly equals cease "braindead".
What's more, eou is something entirely different for each of us. I
don't mind typing 5 lines in elisp if afterwards I don't have to click
20 times to get a posting out. If I need to use a mouse to get a job
done, the app is crap. Hmmm... that one has a nice ring to it...
> by a bunch of 20 year-old pricks from Redmond. *We* want tools *we*
>> can work with and customize according to *our* taste.
GR> With poor documentation, obscure syntax and standardised by the
GR> original mad scientist too.
Are we talking about Emacs and Gnus? Those are far better documented
than Forte Agent, and for the intellectually challenged, there's
always customize.
Cheers,
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University
Heh. How about this one: "make UNIX usable for normal people".
Nobody has done that before. Linus Torvalds
John Morris
>>> Gnus is the most powerful newsreader there is. It's also the most
>>> powerful mailreader there is.
Robin... I am VERY new to Linux. I have Redhat 4.2
installed.
I'm slowly trying to migrate to Linux for most of my needs.
Email and newsgroup are BIGGIES for me. I am a heavy user
of both.
How does one configure Emacs for mail and newsgroups?
I can get my linux setup to connect to my isp by
"activating" the network connection using the Fvwm network
configureator. I can then use Red Barron to browse pages.
BUT.... I can't seem to figure out how to get _any mail or
news app to work! <g>
I would like to use Gnus in Emacs as it also has a calendar
function.
What the heck _IS this strange animal called emacs? An all
in one swiss army knife kind of app?
David M. Cook
On Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:21:12 GMT, John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> wrote:
>BUT.... I can't seem to figure out how to get _any mail or
>news app to work! <g>
I think slrn comes with Redhat 4.2. To run it, set the NNTPSERVER variable
in your /etc/profile
export NNTPSERVER nntp.nowhere.net
then type: slrn -create
Netscape is not bad for mail and has a simple-minded newsreader. The
easiest way to install it on a Redhat box is to get the netscape-wrapper-bnl
rpm. Put the Netscape tar.gz file in /tmp and then install the wrapper:
# rpm -Uhv netscape-wrapper*
You can get the wrapper at:
ftp://ftp.phy.bnl.gov/pub/linux/redhat/bnl-RPMS-i386/
Dave Cook
Joseph Sloan
John Morris wrote:
> I'm slowly trying to migrate to Linux for most of my needs. Email and
> newsgroup are BIGGIES for me. I am a heavy user of both.
Just a thought, I've been using Netscape 4 for mail and news. Maybe it's
not the best possible implementation, but it's convenient to be able to
lauch everything from the netscape message center. BTW the newsreader
has improved dramatically since netscape 3.
I use KDE, and while krn and kmail are still not ready for prime time, I
think they will be excellent once they're done. FWIW, as a pure
newsreader, I like Knews.
For email, XFmail and others are also excellent.
> What the heck _IS this strange animal called emacs? An all
> in one swiss army knife kind of app?
Emacs is not a program, it's a way of life. I've used it mainly as a
c/c++/perl development environment, and it is quite powerful once you
get it figured out.
They say you can do just about anything from within emacs.
--
When people understand what Microsoft is up to, they're outraged.
-- TIM O'REILLY, President, O'Reilly & Associates
John Morris
>I use KDE, and while krn and kmail are still not ready for prime time, I
>think they will be excellent once they're done. FWIW, as a pure
>newsreader, I like Knews.
Is Knews inside of Emacs... or is that a sep app?
What is wrong with using Emacs for mail and news? Too hard
to learn?
Roadkill On Rye
>>> your dos-box - what would it say?
>GR> Less than a day, it'd be a client/workststion PC, switched off at
>GR> night and likely used for a specific time and purpose. No need to
>GR> leave it on when your finished. Irrelevent question really.
In my case, since I run NT and use it as an ftp site, it's up 24 hours a
day. In four years of running NT, I've only seen one BSOD, and that was
due to a scanner problem. Robin is a bright lad, but he is sometimes
badly mistaken about the "other side."
>Are we talking about Emacs and Gnus? Those are far better documented
>than Forte Agent, and for the intellectually challenged, there's
>always customize.
Forte Agent is as customizable as they come, without the need to do any
programming. That's because the people who developed it didn't assume
all their users would also be programmers. The beauty of a program like
this is that the people who made it decided to open up its power to the
average computer user, without compromising that power in any
significant way.
This concept seems to be utterly foreign to some people of the Unix
persuasion. They are so unimaginative as to think the only way to
customize a program is to write several pages of script or C* code. When
the result turns out to be the ugly abomination shown on Robin's page,
they still point to it and say, "Look at my beautiful baby!" Personally,
I'd rather eat a dead possum than have something like that on my
computer screen.
--
Roadkill on Rye
road...@super.zippo.com
http://www.foodtv.com/~roadkill/possum-recipes.html
Delusions of grandeur make me feel a lot better about myself.
George Russell
On 31 Dec 1997 20:10:18 +0100, "Robin S. Socha"
<ro...@franck.pc.uni-koeln.de> wrote:
>>> Get a life, darling... I don't give a toss about what my newsreader
>>> looks like. I want something that does what I want
>GR> Hence forte agent as Linux still lacks an equivalent out of alpha
>GR> testing.
>
>Gnus is not Alpha, Quassia Gnus is. However, qgnus has only crashed
>on me once in 6 weeks. Say, have you ever seen a Windos system run
>for even 6 days without a crash? Frottee Agent may be ok, but the
>fucked-up "OS" it runs under turns belly up at least once a day - I
Please, it works well enough for the majority of us, and besides, i
never have win95 up for a full day anyway - put it this way, its yet
to crash while i use forte agent - its main use bar Civ 2.
>don't need that, you know, this is the 90s and I have /work/ to do...
Gnus has the worst excuse for a graphical interface i have yet seen.
The alpha remark was referring to the KDE news reader, which is as
easy to setup as agent, but is alpha.
I have work to do as well, and under Linux am often frustrated by
poorly designed interfaces, like Gnus.
>>> Do you have the Forte sources?
>GR> and who needs those?
>
>Suppose you wanted some feature Frottee Agent does not offer - how
>would you implement it?
Learn to program in C/C++, learn an api i have never seen before,
learn OO programming, find development software for Win95, and do it
debug it and use it. Or email the company, ask them to put it in and
wait, About the same time either way, and I get to do other stuff
while waiting. Source is irrelevant to me - i compile it but do not
comprehend it to debug or extend.
>>> I also want a newsreader that runs reliably. If you had "uptime" on
>>> your dos-box - what would it say?
>GR> Less than a day, it'd be a client/workststion PC, switched off at
>GR> night and likely used for a specific time and purpose. No need to
>GR> leave it on when your finished. Irrelevent question really.
>
>See above. If the OS sucks, good apps cannot make up for that.
>
>>> See, the problem with you dos DuDeZ is that all you have to say in
>>> favour of your "PrOgZ" is that they "look better" or are more
>>> "intuitive". This is a Linux group, not a toystore. *We* don't want
>>> KeWL looks and dumbing down
>GR> Hence KDE,GNOME,CDE,Enlightenment and the diversity of Window
>GR> Managers
>
>Enlightenment is an abomination (I never liked those Debian nazis on #E,
>anyway...),
An excellent example of a graphical program - fast, flexible,
configurable, intuitive to use.
>CDE is an expensive memory hog, Gnome is vapourware. KDE is
>a very promising step in the Right Direction (tm) IMO, because the old
>GUI implementations certainly do have their shortcomings in terms of
>efficiency and "ease of use", if you want to call it thus. I like KDE a
>lot and if you compare it to the dos 7.0 GUI, you'll find that it is a
>lot more intelligent and *vomit* integrated.
Except for single click launching and its handling of dragging in the
file manager.
>GR> - No Sir, We Want an OS with an Interface from the Dawn of Time
>GR> itself. Move on. Some of us want power and ease of use.
>
>"ease of use"... Hmmm... don't mention the e-word :-/ I've seen far
>more fscked-up postings by Windos users than by Linux users. Netscape,
>Forte... they may be "intuitive" or "easy to use" with respect to
>shoveling _some_thing into the net, but they don't force you to read
>the docs. In this case, "eou" certainly equals cease "braindead".
>What's more, eou is something entirely different for each of us. I
>don't mind typing 5 lines in elisp if afterwards I don't have to click
>20 times to get a posting out. If I need to use a mouse to get a job
>done, the app is crap. Hmmm... that one has a nice ring to it...
And for more proficient users, there is a system of short cut keys -
and they are more intuitive than emacs/gnus weird system.
>> by a bunch of 20 year-old pricks from Redmond. *We* want tools *we*
>>> can work with and customize according to *our* taste.
>GR> With poor documentation, obscure syntax and standardised by the
>GR> original mad scientist too.
>
>Are we talking about Emacs and Gnus? Those are far better documented
>than Forte Agent, and for the intellectually challenged, there's
>always customize.
But the documentation is in info format, complex, jargon laden, and no
real help to a non programmer ie an end user of thr software.
Forte actually write documentation for the end user, and requires less
documentation anyway.
Robin S. Socha
> "JM" == John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> writes:
JM> Is Knews inside of Emacs... or is that a sep app?
The latter. knews sucks. YMMV.
JM> What is wrong with using Emacs for mail and news? Too hard to
JM> learn?
No. A little hard to get started with. The docu, however, is brilliant,
and there are loads of websites that will help you. Guess what, I got
one, too ;-) -> x-header
Cheers,
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University
Maybe his humor DLL file got corrupted...
Or maybe... general humor fault? hmmmm (Kenneth R. Kinder)
Robin S. Socha
> "JS" == Joseph Sloan <j...@c-me.com> writes:
JS> John Morris wrote:
> I'm slowly trying to migrate to Linux for most of my needs. Email
> and newsgroup are BIGGIES for me. I am a heavy user of both.
JS> Just a thought, I've been using Netscape 4 for mail and news. Maybe
JS> it's not the best possible implementation, but it's convenient to
JS> be able to lauch everything from the netscape message center. BTW
JS> the newsreader has improved dramatically since netscape 3.
It's still rubbish for high-volume lists. Gnus can do threading,
scoring and sorting. You cannot top that:
Group buffer (mail and news, indented, foldable):
* Gnus -- 4701 *
* Private -- 0 *
* 0: nnml+robin:robin Last read on 980101
* Linux -- 525 *
53: de.comp.os.linux.networking Last read on 980101
52: comp.os.linux.announce Last read on 971225
Threaded summary buffer:
R +214757[John Morris ]:=Re: What is the best newsreader?
R +214788 [David M. Cook ]:
R +214797 [Joseph Sloan ]:=
RA+214813 [John Morris ]:
Tree buffer for this thread:
[Joh]-[Dav]
\[Jos]-[Joh]
JS> I use KDE, and while krn and kmail are still not ready for prime
JS> time, I think they will be excellent once they're done. FWIW, as a
JS> pure newsreader, I like Knews. For email, XFmail and others are
JS> also excellent.
If it does not run on the console, too, it's rubbish. I don't always
have access to X -> alias cgnus='gnuclient -nw -f gnus'
> What the heck _IS this strange animal called emacs? An all
> in one swiss army knife kind of app?
It's a Swiss Army chainsaw.
JS> Emacs is not a program, it's a way of life. I've used it mainly
JS> as a c/c++/perl development environment, and it is quite powerful
JS> once you get it figured out. They say you can do just about
JS> anything from within emacs.
/vmxemacs ?
Cheers,
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University
main(){printf(&unix["\021%six\012\0"],(unix)["have"]+"fun"-0x60);}
Mats Andtbacka
John Morris, in <34acc9cf...@news.nemonet.com>:
>>I use KDE, and while krn and kmail are still not ready for prime time, I
>>think they will be excellent once they're done. FWIW, as a pure
>>newsreader, I like Knews.
>Is Knews inside of Emacs... or is that a sep app?
Knews is a separate app.
>What is wrong with using Emacs for mail and news? Too hard
>to learn?
what is wrong with Emacs is, primarily, that it is Emacs.
--
"Pitiful, isn't it?" - Marvin
John Morris
>JS> Just a thought, I've been using Netscape 4 for mail and news. Maybe
>JS> it's not the best possible implementation, but it's convenient to
>JS> be able to lauch everything from the netscape message center. BTW
>JS> the newsreader has improved dramatically since netscape 3.
>
>It's still rubbish for high-volume lists. Gnus can do threading,
>scoring and sorting. You cannot top that:
Well... I'll probably start out with Netscape for Linux and
use that for email and newsgroups.
Then I will slowly start learning a better email and
newsgroups app such as Gnus.
Right now.... I just want to get _STARTED using Linux for
email and news and Netscape will at least allow me to get
started.
I have Win 95 on one harddrive and Linux on the other and
can boot into either one using LILO. However.... I must
constantly keep booting into Win 95 so I can use Agent 1.5
for email and news. I want to reverse that.... use Linux for
the bulk of my work and only boot into Win 95 occasionally.
Another Datapoint
Excerpts from jmo...@nemonet.com (John Morris) writing in
comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>Right now.... I just want to get _STARTED using Linux for
>email and news and Netscape will at least allow me to get
>started.
>
>I have Win 95 on one harddrive and Linux on the other and
>can boot into either one using LILO. However.... I must
>constantly keep booting into Win 95 so I can use Agent 1.5
>for email and news. I want to reverse that.... use Linux for
>the bulk of my work and only boot into Win 95 occasionally.
Why not give up Usenet? Hell, people have given up much more for the
sake of Linux.
--
Another Datapoint on the Information Highway
Joseph Sloan
Roadkill On Rye wrote:
> In my case, since I run NT and use it as an ftp site, it's up 24 hours a
> day.
This sort of thing is remarkable only to those from a microsoft
background.That and a lot more can be done with a 386 Linux system.
Say, can windows "nt" even boot on a 386?
Brett W. McCoy
Also sprach John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com>:
>What the heck _IS this strange animal called emacs? An all
>in one swiss army knife kind of app?
That about sums it up! Originally, it was a extensible text editor with a
LISP interpreter built-in, but it is used for a wide variety of other
things, such as programming IDEs, news readers, mail readers,
psychoanalysis, among other things. Some Linux distributions use a
kitchen sink for its X icon, to indicate the only thing it doesn't have.
Roadkill On Rye
Joseph Sloan <j...@c-me.com> made the following comments in
comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>Roadkill On Rye wrote:
>
>> In my case, since I run NT and use it as an ftp site, it's up 24 hours a
>> day.
>
>This sort of thing is remarkable only to those from a microsoft
>background.That and a lot more can be done with a 386 Linux system.
It wasn't meant to be "remarkable," so why did you remark on it? Can you
read things in their context, or only in the context of your hatred for
MS? Get over it, Joe. NT is a decent desktop OS, but when I set up a
real server I'll no doubt use some flavor of Unix. Feel better?
--
roadkill
Alexander Viro
Do you remember MultiEdit under DOS/Win? It's the same idea - take an
editor, add macro language and let the people write their packages. Emacs
is older than ME, much older - and thus larger. It was written by Stallman
and he is (was?) AI researcher. So his choice of macro language was LISP.
I'ld prefer to see something like ML or Miranda, but they were not
available back then. Since emacs is under GPL and there is a lot of people
wanting to improve editor, it constantly grows. As far as I remember GPL
appeared as refined version of original emacs' license. It was when
Stallman started the GNU project.
It seems to me that he wanted emacs to be _THE_ user's interface
in GNU. It's kinda funny to see Bill repeating Richard's ideas. Oh yeah,
and just like Bill (but ~10 years before Bill) Richard proclaimed as the
goal "one and only OS on each computer in the universe, one and only
editor/UI/environment there". BTW, their ideas about what is the part
of OS and what isn't also have some striking common parts (RMS thinks that
Emacs (_THE_ editor/UI/browser/...) is the part of _THE_ OS (GNU)).
Both Bill and Richard become very hostile when somebody pretends to have
different ideas. Both tend to produce bloated things (Richard is more
moderate in this respect, but there are people who think that Emacs is
overbloated). And both would be _extremely_ insulted by such comparison.
What makes them different - Stallman is programmer, and damned good one.
He wrote (and initiated writing) a lot of very nice and powerful things.
And frankly his philosophy seems to be more attractive.
Cheers,
Al
Tracy R Reed
Roadkill On Rye <road...@super.zippo.com> wrote:
>MS? Get over it, Joe. NT is a decent desktop OS, but when I set up a
>real server I'll no doubt use some flavor of Unix. Feel better?
MS claims it makes an excellent server OS and is selling it to many as
such.
--
Tracy Reed http://www.ultraviolet.org
This message brought to you by Microsoft. Inventors of multitasking,
windowing, graphical user interfaces, the 32 bit OS, the Internet, the
wheel, fire, air, and God.
Florian Kuehnert
jmo...@nemonet.com (John Morris) writes:
> >It's still rubbish for high-volume lists. Gnus can do threading,
> >scoring and sorting. You cannot top that:
> Well... I'll probably start out with Netscape for Linux and
> use that for email and newsgroups.
> Then I will slowly start learning a better email and
> newsgroups app such as Gnus.
Why don´t you try knews? It´s easy, but powerful and small. To get
your news, you should take leafnode (ftp.troll.no/pub/freebies).
Florian
--
Un chasseur sachant chasser doit savoir chasser sans son chien.
Roadkill On Rye
tr...@freeside.ultraviolet.org (Tracy R Reed) made the following
comments in comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>Roadkill On Rye <road...@super.zippo.com> wrote:
>>MS? Get over it, Joe. NT is a decent desktop OS, but when I set up a
>>real server I'll no doubt use some flavor of Unix. Feel better?
>
>MS claims it makes an excellent server OS and is selling it to many as
>such.
I'm not sure what your point is, but I do recognize you as a well-known
Linux advocate, so I assume you are not saying you agree with the MS
assessment.
First, on NT Workstation, I've used it for enough years to know it is
extremely stable and has plenty of applications, including some key ones
not available for Linux. I see no compelling reason to throw it away in
favor of Linux or any other OS at this point in time.
As for the MS server, it's apparently good enough for the likes of ABC
News and many other major sites. However, for a small-time user like me,
the Apache Web server running on Linux offers much better licensing
terms, to say the least. :-) Also, I've seen plenty of studies that show
Solaris to outperform NT as a server OS. So these are the two options
I'm currently weighing. In other words, either go for the cheap, or, if
I decide to splurge, go for the better of two expensive options.
Here's a question -- What about using Apache on Solaris? This is
possible, right? How does it affect the licensing issues? (My guess is,
not at all.)
Hmm, this thread has drifted away from its stated subject. Time for a
change.
--
roadkill
Sam Trenholme
You know, I have had over three cups of coffee this morning, so I will
actually post to this yet-another-Unix-vs-NT-argument.
>NT is a decent desktop OS, but when I set up a real server I'll no doubt
>use some flavor of Unix. Feel better?
Why I prefer Linux:
* Cheaper
* I control how it looks and feel, not some group of programmers in
another state where it rains too much
* Anything Windows just feels 'icky' to me. Too corporate. Macs feel
'cute', and Unix feels like I am deving in to the deep mysteries of
geek.
And, Robin will be absolutely incapable of believing this, but, Pine is a
useful mailer. Forte Agent works as a newsreader. And, yes, sometimes
tis a good idea to lay off the caffenne.
Sam Trenholme
>What is wrong with using Emacs for mail and news? Too hard
>to learn?
I tried using RMAIL with Gnu emacs in command-line mode, and gave up. One
of the two happened:
* I was too lazy to learn it
* It was too hard to learn
Sigh, sigh. Well, Pine works. As does mailx, elm, and mutt. I guess
mush and mh would also work, but, again, hard to learn.
Eugene O'Neil
In article <684024$5...@nntp02.primenet.com>, Stoney Edwards <phla...@primenet.com> wrote:
>The posts here are becoming increasingly stupid...
>
>Anyone else here think this NG should be self-moderated?...
Advocacy groups exist so that people trying to have intelligent conversations
in actual, serious newsgroups will have a place to tell stupid, annoying
people to go. This is where we are SUPPOSED to argue about whether or not "my
computer can beat up your computer." Thus, if the posts here seem increasingly
stupid, it can only be because they are increasingly on-topic.
If anyone does not belong in an advocacy group, it is people who are looking
for intelligent conversation, or in fact any conversation that does not
involve metaphorically comparing penis-sizes. So take this non-stupid thread
to a non-advocacy newsgroup, you non-moron! ;-)
-Eugene
Michael Kozlowski
In article <68jkiu$m...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Eugene O'Neil <eug...@cs.umb.edu> wrote:
>
>Advocacy groups exist so that people trying to have intelligent conversations
>in actual, serious newsgroups will have a place to tell stupid, annoying
>people to go.
I've often thought that advocacy groups should be placed in the talk
heirarchy, where all the other low S/N groups are...
--
Michael Kozlowski m...@cs.wisc.edu
Recommended SF (updated 12/5): http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~mlk/sfbooks.html
"Ghost of Carl Sagan Warns Against Dangers of Superstition" --The Onion
Robin S. Socha
> Sam Trenholme writes:
ST> And, Robin will be absolutely incapable of believing this, but,
ST> Pine is a useful mailer. Forte Agent works as a newsreader. And,
ST> yes, sometimes tis a good idea to lay off the caffenne.
Pine certainly is a useful mailer. It's just no use to use it with
high-volume mailing lists. Agent Frottee certainly can be used to
read news, as long as you don't run 2 more apps and a blue screen
simultaneously. Gnus, however, can be used for both, and it will not
turn belly up ever other minute. And... XEmacs can be used to control
you coffee machine. Sam? Get yourself some XEmacs, ok?
Cheers,
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Micro$oft Windows 98, n. - a belated upgrade to a 32 bit hack of a
16-bit shell for an 8-bit operating system designed for a 4-bit
processor by a 2-bit company that's not worth one bit of attention.
Robin S. Socha
> Regarding Re: What is the best newsreader?; Sam Trenholme adds:
[What is wrong with using Emacs for mail and news?]
ST> I tried using RMAIL with Gnu emacs in command-line mode, and gave
ST> up. One of the two happened:
ST> * I was too lazy to learn it
Quitter! LaMEr!
ST> * It was too hard to learn
Sam, you cannot be *that* stooopid, can you? OTOH, rmail does in fact
suck, kinda... You could have used Kylie Jones' vm or Lars Magne
Ingebrigtsen's Gnus. Those are somewhat easier to learn. But... having
done the pine stuff you've seen, you should believe me when I say that
pine is easy only as long as you don't try to do something fancy with
it. HTML? A royal pain. Threading? Nope. PGP? Not for the average
luser. No, I would not concede that pine is easier to use than Gnus,
especially taking into account that Gnus' functionality is 20x that of
pine.
ST> Sigh, sigh.
whine, whine. Stop whining, Sam }:->
ST> Well, Pine works. As does mailx, elm, and mutt. I guess mush and
ST> mh would also work, but, again, hard to learn.
Of all these, only mutt is really any good. I've been using pine and
elm again in the last two weeks - they suck. Really, they suck -
especially when you have 500+ mails coming in. No scoring, no
threading, no filtering - not good (yeah, guys, chill, I know of
procmail and emil...).
Later,
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University
GMC d++ s+: a- C++ UL++ P++$>+++$ L++$>+++$ E+++ W-- N++ w--- O- M--
V-- PS--- PE+++ Y+ PGP++ t++ 5-- X-- tv++ b+++ DI++ D+ g e++ h r++ y+
JEDI
On Thu, 01 Jan 1998 23:31:16 GMT, Another Datapoint <data...@infoblues.com> w
rote:
Considering that Linux has net server & client facilities
suitable for running an ISP, let alone just being connected
to one: 'giving up Usenet' for Linux would be downright silly...
Anthony Mandic
Roadkill On Rye wrote:
> First, on NT Workstation, I've used it for enough years to know it is
> extremely stable and has plenty of applications,
I wish I could agree with you but I've been running it extensively
over the last 2 weeks and have had nothing but problems (including
my first blue screens in a long time). However, whenever I boot
into Solaris x86 (I've got a dual boot setup with seperate hard
disks) I seldom experience the same magnitude of problems. What
service pack are you running?
> As for the MS server, it's apparently good enough for the likes of ABC
> News and many other major sites. However, for a small-time user like me,
Funny I seem to recall that much was made of the fact that MS
had to run Solaris servers for their web serving needs some time
ago.
> the Apache Web server running on Linux offers much better licensing
> terms, to say the least. :-) Also, I've seen plenty of studies that show
> Solaris to outperform NT as a server OS. So these are the two options
> I'm currently weighing.
I found these two links posted recently to be quite enlightening -
http://www.ugraf.com/unix-nt.html
http://www.technovations.com/techreports/sun/solarisvsnt/report.htm
-am
John Morris
>Sam, you cannot be *that* stooopid, can you? OTOH, rmail does in fact
>suck, kinda... You could have used Kylie Jones' vm or Lars Magne
>Ingebrigtsen's Gnus. Those are somewhat easier to learn. But... having
>done the pine stuff you've seen, you should believe me when I say that
Is there a Win 95 port of Gnus?
Robin S. Socha
>> "JM" == John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> writes:
JM> Is there a Win 95 port of Gnus?
I don't know. What's Win 95? But there are several Dos ports of Emacs,
and I know of people that use Gnus with Dos, so it should work. Check:
<http://www.gnus.org>
Cheers,
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University
TL
On Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:21:12 GMT, jmo...@nemonet.com (John Morris) Said
Unto the Faithful:
>Robin... I am VERY new to Linux. I have Redhat 4.2
>installed.
>
>I'm slowly trying to migrate to Linux for most of my needs.
>
>Email and newsgroup are BIGGIES for me. I am a heavy user
>of both.
FWIW:
I came from Win 3.11 to Linux about a year ago, starting with Slackware,
then moved to Red Hat (v2.0), and now reside at RH 5.0. I know what it
is to move from Agent to ????? in Linux. It's not a nice transition - -
I've pestered the Agent people about a port to Linux several times now (
and encourage others to do likewise), but, so far, no indication that
such a project is in the works.
So what does one do?
In my case, I tried Knews, Gnus, Pine, SLRN, NN-Tk, and others. All had
their strengths, but still felt anemic, slow, and awkward compared to
Agent. It was enjoyable (for the most part) auditioning these various
apps - - and also a good education in compiling, piping, etc. Time
consuming, though.
To my own surprise, I found that the Netscape Communicator suite
provided me with the best combination of functionality, aesthetics, and
ease of use compared to my Agent/W3.11 setup. I have not felt inclined
to run Agent under WINE - - more hassles in setup than I care to deal
with right now, and reports indicate stability/function under WINE is
only .
I'm a KDE user and look forward to many good things from this project.
I've not tried the alpha-stage newsreader yet, but, if other KDE apps
are an indication, the K reader should look good and work well.
Until then, the Netscape suite gets my vote, with Knews taking the
runner-up position for its clean interface and pleasant overall feel.
My .02 worth.
Regards,
TL
"There's a lot to learn
from wasting time." -Mr. Neil Young
Eric Potter
[Posted and mailed]
In article <68jj3m$9...@news9.noc.netcom.net>,
set-usenet...@reality.samiam.org (Sam Trenholme) writes:
>
> I tried using RMAIL with Gnu emacs in command-line mode, and gave up. One
> of the two happened:
>
> * I was too lazy to learn it
>
> * It was too hard to learn
>
Download tkrat. It's not to hard to use, and it's very powerful. You can
use procmail to filter out the spam.
--
* ^ \ ___@ IMPORTANT NOTE:
*^ / \ \ | \ When replying to me, remove the NOSPAM
/ \/ \ \__| \ from my address.
/ / ^ \ \
/ \ \ Eric Potter
/ ^ ^ \ \ er...@earthlink.net
John Morris
POSTED AND EMAILED:
>In my case, I tried Knews, Gnus, Pine, SLRN, NN-Tk, and others. All had
>their strengths, but still felt anemic, slow, and awkward compared to
>Agent. It was enjoyable (for the most part) auditioning these various
>apps - - and also a good education in compiling, piping, etc. Time
>consuming, though.
OK... well i will _definitely take you advise as you were in
the same boat as I am in NOW. <g> I am a HEAVY Agent 1.5
user. I want to make the move to Linux but MUST fine good
email and news apps.
>To my own surprise, I found that the Netscape Communicator suite
>provided me with the best combination of functionality, aesthetics, and
Well.... I do have Netscape 3 under my Linux setup. I was
under the impression that Communicator (version 4) doesn't
run very well under Linux. Not true? Also.... is
Communicator as good as an offline app as Agent is?
>Until then, the Netscape suite gets my vote, with Knews taking the
>runner-up position for its clean interface and pleasant overall feel.
Ok.... will look into Knews and the KDE thing. Are both free
downloads?? Where do i go to get them? BTW... thanks for
all the help and advice everyone!!!
John Morris
>In my case, I tried Knews, Gnus, Pine, SLRN, NN-Tk, and others. All had
>their strengths, but still felt anemic, slow, and awkward compared to
>Agent. It was enjoyable (for the most part) auditioning these various
>apps - - and also a good education in compiling, piping, etc. Time
>consuming, though.
I'm curious..... do you think you disliked the above Linux
apps because they are command line oriented?
Or.... are they basically just inferior to Agent regardless
of the CLI vs GUI thing?
And.... again..... Netscape Communicator is really not as
automated or offline capable as Agent 1.5... is it?
George Russell
On Sat, 03 Jan 1998 21:07:35 GMT, jmo...@nemonet.com (John Morris)
wrote:
>Well.... I do have Netscape 3 under my Linux setup. I was
>under the impression that Communicator (version 4) doesn't
>run very well under Linux. Not true? Also.... is
>Communicator as good as an offline app as Agent is?
It runs, but its not as good, no.
>>Until then, the Netscape suite gets my vote, with Knews taking the
>>runner-up position for its clean interface and pleasant overall feel.
>
>
>Ok.... will look into Knews and the KDE thing. Are both free
>downloads?? Where do i go to get them? BTW... thanks for
>all the help and advice everyone!!!
http://www.kde.org
krn is usable, but barely at the moment.
knews is also gpl'ed i think.
George Russell
Tim Smith
Robin S. Socha <ro...@franck.pc.uni-koeln.de> wrote:
>JM> Is there a Win 95 port of Gnus?
>
>I don't know. What's Win 95?
Robin, you cannot be *that* stooopid, can you?
--Tim Smith
Tim Smith
John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> wrote:
>>In my case, I tried Knews, Gnus, Pine, SLRN, NN-Tk, and others. All had
>>their strengths, but still felt anemic, slow, and awkward compared to
>>Agent. It was enjoyable (for the most part) auditioning these various
>>apps - - and also a good education in compiling, piping, etc. Time
>>consuming, though.
>
>
>I'm curious..... do you think you disliked the above Linux
>apps because they are command line oriented?
>
>Or.... are they basically just inferior to Agent regardless
>of the CLI vs GUI thing?
I've not seen Knews, but Gnus, Pine, SLRN, and NN are not command line
oriented.
--Tim Smith
Omegaman
road...@super.zippo.com (Roadkill On Rye) writes:
> customize a program is to write several pages of script or C* code. When
> the result turns out to be the ugly abomination shown on Robin's page,
> they still point to it and say, "Look at my beautiful baby!" Personally,
> I'd rather eat a dead possum than have something like that on my
> computer screen.
So you've never used Gnus but merely looking at Robin's page and you
can claim it an "ugly abomination."
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:ome...@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
PGP Key fingerprint = | How are you gonna come?
6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 | With your hands upon your head,
59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 | Or on the trigger of your gun?"
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key | _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Robin S. Socha
>> "TS" == Tim Smith <t...@halcyon.com> writes:
TS> Robin S. Socha <ro...@franck.pc.uni-koeln.de> wrote:
JM> Is there a Win 95 port of Gnus?
>> I don't know. What's Win 95?
TS> Robin, you cannot be *that* stooopid, can you?
No. I'm even more stoooopid than that:
robin@sushi:/home/robin > ll /Crap
drwxr-xr-x 26 root root 24576 Dec 3 00:10 windog45
Feel better now?
--
Robin S. Socha
By the way, "xset -led 3" (I think that's the number) will turn off the
Caps Lock LED on your keyboard - this may be necessary to keep it from
burning out after extended periods of heavy use. (Roy Stogner)
Ewald R. de Wit
Tim Smith wrote:
>Robin S. Socha <ro...@franck.pc.uni-koeln.de> wrote:
>>I don't know. What's Win 95?
>
That's not stupid, that is a blessed state of ignorance!
To answer the subject: If you are a total newbie then I think
Netscape is best for all your news, browsing and mail needs.
If you want more speed and flexibelity from your newsreader
then I can recommand slrn.
--
-- Ewald
Florian Kuehnert
t...@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) writes:
> >Or.... are they basically just inferior to Agent regardless
> >of the CLI vs GUI thing?
> I've not seen Knews, but Gnus, Pine, SLRN, and NN are not command line
> oriented.
How about
| sutok ~ $ find /var/spool/news -name '[0-9]*' -exec cat {} \;|more
?
Florian
--
"The ways of God and government and girls are all mysterious"
-- Robert A. Heinlein: "Time Enough for Love"
John Morris
>knews is also gpl'ed i think.
>
>George Russell
George... I went to the knews homepage. Looked like it is
worth trying. I gotta start somewhere. This switching from
Linux and Win95 and Agent is getting old. So.. I need a
Linux news app fast.
Anyway.... what is "gpl-ed"?
And.... how do I download and install a Linux app such as
Knews? Is it pretty much like installing a Win 95 app?
I am using Netscape 3 for email on Linux.
BTW... what does everyone think of using a dedicated news
app for news versus using Deja News thru a browser?
I've tried using Deja News... and even want to like it....
BUT it seems so AWKWARD compared to Agent 1.5.
Is this just the nature of the beast.. or am I not using
Deja News correct?
Bottom line.... is a dedicated news app regardless if it's
under Linux or Win95 _ALWAYS gonna be better than Deja News?
Roadkill On Rye
ew...@bitterling.LeidenUniv.nl (Ewald R. de Wit) made the following
comments in comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>To answer the subject: If you are a total newbie then I think
>Netscape is best for all your news, browsing and mail needs.
>
>If you want more speed and flexibelity from your newsreader
>then I can recommand slrn.
Which of these features are supported in slrn, or are easily
accomplished using slrn and other Linux features?
-- inline html viewing
-- customizable view management like that in Forte Agent 1.5*
-- two-byte language reading/writing
-- one-step deleting of unwanted articles from the article list
-- automatic fetching of new articles periodically
-- automatic spell-checking when posting (yours is obviously not set to
do this)
-- automatic updating of groups list
-- filtering by article size
-- automatic decoding of binaries that meet certain conditions
-- different signatures per group
-- different personalities per group
-- backtracking through a remembered list of viewed articles
-- threaded viewing
-- clickable URLs, etc.
-- customizable, multi-pane interface
-- watch threads
-- ignore threads
-- keep threads
-- conditional purges
-- group name searching
-- authentication (for commercial news services like Super Zippo and
Supernews)
*Agent does this by offering a list of view elements, such as "marked"
"watched" "with body" "without body" "read" "unread", which the user can
combine freely into custom views. These views can be switched by icon,
menu, or keyboard operation.
Note that I know of no news reader for any platform that has all of the
above features. Agent, for example, lacks html, two-byte character
support, and automatic article fetching, though there are ways to
accomplish most of these through add-ons. What I want to know is, how
close does slrn come to fulfilling these needs? Is there any other Linux
news reader that comes closer? How much programming is necessary for the
user to obtain such features?
--
roadkill
Robin S. Socha
>> "JM" == John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> writes:
>> knews is also gpl'ed i think.
JM> I went to the knews homepage. Looked like it is worth trying.
JM> I gotta start somewhere. This switching from Linux and Win95
JM> and Agent is getting old. So.. I need a Linux news app fast.
JM> Anyway.... what is "gpl-ed"?
It's put under the GNU General Public License. Read about it in the
sources once you've downloaded it.
JM> And.... how do I download and install a Linux app such as Knews?
JM> Is it pretty much like installing a Win 95 app?
No, it's different. But how did you install your Linux system? Probably
from a distrib CD. See if you can install knews from it, too - knews is
pretty much standard.
Otherwise, see if you can find a binary rpm, that's the easiest to
install. Download it, tar -xzf or gzip -d it and run rpm -i.
JM> Bottom line.... is a dedicated news app regardless if it's under
JM> Linux or Win95 _ALWAYS gonna be better than Deja News?
Sure. You want your own newsserver (leafnode from
<http://www.troll.no>) or do you want to go online for news ever 30
minutes?
Cheers,
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University
Windows NT - How to make a 100 MIPS Linux
workstation perform like an 8 MHz 286
Roadkill On Rye
jmo...@nemonet.com (John Morris) made the following comments in
comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>BTW... what does everyone think of using a dedicated news
>app for news versus using Deja News thru a browser?
>
>I've tried using Deja News... and even want to like it....
>BUT it seems so AWKWARD compared to Agent 1.5.
>
>Is this just the nature of the beast.. or am I not using
>Deja News correct?
>
>Bottom line.... is a dedicated news app regardless if it's
>under Linux or Win95 _ALWAYS gonna be better than Deja News?
DejaNews is a good way to find news articles on a specific topic,
regardless of the group. Deja News is best for finding articles that
have been dropped from your news server, and for searches across the
entire corpus of articles. A news reader like Agent is best, however,
for keeping up with specific groups, such as this one. So it all depends
on how you use Usenet.
I prefer Agent because I like to have a stable of groups that I monitor
regularly, and in each group, to follow certain threads that interest me
while ignoring the rest. I also like to find certain people in each
group who have something positive to offer, and to make sure I catch
every one of their posts. And of course I occasionally run into someone
I want to put in the bozo box so I don't have to read their posts.
(Ragosta and Tholen spring to mind.) This approach to Usenetting is not
well supported by Deja News. For the same reason as you, I cannot use
Linux 100% until I find a news reader as capable as Agent (and an email
client as capable as Becky! Internet Mail).
--
r-on-r
"If you're ridin' ahead of the herd, take a look back every
now and then to make sure it's still there." -Cowboy wisdom
Roy Stogner
On Sun, 04 Jan 1998 02:08:07 GMT, Roadkill On Rye wrote:
>I prefer Agent because I like to have a stable of groups that I monitor
>regularly, and in each group, to follow certain threads that interest me
>while ignoring the rest. I also like to find certain people in each
>group who have something positive to offer, and to make sure I catch
>every one of their posts. And of course I occasionally run into someone
>I want to put in the bozo box so I don't have to read their posts.
>(Ragosta and Tholen spring to mind.) This approach to Usenetting is not
>well supported by Deja News. For the same reason as you, I cannot use
>Linux 100% until I find a news reader as capable as Agent (and an email
>client as capable as Becky! Internet Mail).
I prefer slrn to Free Agent, but haven't tried the full version of Agent.
If you're really used to Agent, I've heard the 16 bit version is stable
on the latest version of WINE.
---
Roy Stogner
Robin S. Socha
>> "ROR" == Roadkill On Rye <road...@super.zippo.com> writes:
ROR> Ewald R. de Wit wrote:
>> If you want more speed and flexibelity from your newsreader then I
>> can recommand slrn.
ROR> Which of these features are supported in slrn, or are easily
ROR> accomplished using slrn and other Linux features?
[...]
Not enough.
ROR> Note that I know of no news reader for any platform that has all
ROR> of the above features. Agent, for example, lacks html, two-byte
ROR> character support, and automatic article fetching, though there
ROR> are ways to accomplish most of these through add-ons.
I don't know what two-byte character support is, but Quassia Gnus for
XEmacs has all of them.
ROR> What I want to know is, how close does slrn come to fulfilling
ROR> these needs?
Not close enough, granted.
ROR> Is there any other Linux news reader that comes closer? How much
ROR> programming is necessary for the user to obtain such features?
Gnus requires reading, true, but so does Agent Frottee. 19.16 and
20.3 of XEmacs offer customize, so you can happily click away at
options. Provided that Linux users are generally more aware of what
they want, I'd say that Gnus is as easy to use as is Agent. You can,
of course, do weird things to Gnus, to make it more enjoyable in ways
of it being arcane. Visit my XEmacs page for an example.
Cheers,
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University
main(){printf(&unix["\021%six\012\0"],(unix)["have"]+"fun"-0x60);}
Eric Potter
[Posted and mailed]
In article <34c6ecbb....@snews.zippo.com>,
road...@super.zippo.com (Roadkill On Rye) writes:
> I want to put in the bozo box so I don't have to read their posts.
> (Ragosta and Tholen spring to mind.) This approach to Usenetting is not
> well supported by Deja News. For the same reason as you, I cannot use
> Linux 100% until I find a news reader as capable as Agent (and an email
> client as capable as Becky! Internet Mail).
>
Knews offers everything that agent does except offline capability. Global,
and per-group kill files and hot lists, a very nice tree view, inline jpeg and gif viewing, batch downloads within a group, per-group signature and header
configuration, customizable keyboard shortcuts, etc., are all supported.
Tkrat does it all for email, including IMAP4. Filtering is accomplised with
procmail.
John Morris
>JM> Bottom line.... is a dedicated news app regardless if it's under
>JM> Linux or Win95 _ALWAYS gonna be better than Deja News?
>
>Sure. You want your own newsserver (leafnode from
><http://www.troll.no>) or do you want to go online for news ever 30
>minutes?
Robin.... you lost me on above remark. can you explain as
tho you are talking to a person from another planet? <g>
Cause that's what I am when it comes to Linux at this stage?
IOW... what do you mean by "you want your own newserver or
do you want to go online for ever 30 mins"?
Florian Kuehnert
jmo...@nemonet.com (John Morris) writes:
Robin thinks that you read News while your are online. That isn´t very
cheap. When you install a local news server (like leafnode), you go
once online, download all the news of the groups you are reading, go
offline and read them *then*. This is much cheaper :-) When you´ve
read (written) all the news you want, you go online once more, deliver
your new articles and download new news.
Leafnode and INN are such prorams, but I would advice you to take
leafnode as Robin already pointed out. I´ve recently written a small
HOWTO that helps you to install and understand leafnode, so drop me a
short mail if I shall send it to you.
Florian
--
Picard: "Worf - fire at will!" ...
Worf: "Noooo, not Commander Riker..."
Robin S. Socha
>> "JM" == John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> writes:
JM> Bottom line.... is a dedicated news app regardless if it's under
JM> Linux or Win95 _ALWAYS gonna be better than Deja News?
>> Sure. You want your own newsserver (leafnode from
>> <http://www.troll.no>) or do you want to go online for news ever 30
>> minutes?
JM> Robin.... you lost me on above remark. can you explain as tho you
JM> are talking to a person from another planet? <g> Cause that's what
JM> I am when it comes to Linux at this stage? IOW... what do you
JM> mean by "you want your own newserver or do you want to go online
JM> for ever 30 mins"?
Take this answer as an example. I just wanted to check how the thread
started - so I hit ^ a couple of times and got all the previous posts
from my own newsserver. It's mainly a matter of convenience to have a
newsserver, and it separates men (u*ix) from children (dos). Tell you
what: free 200 MB on your harddrive, grab leafnode, install it (it's
really a matter of minutes and two lines in one config files) but make
sure to either write-protect /var/spool/news/interesting.groups or not
use netscape to read news - done. I'm sure you'll like what you see.
Cheers,
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University
Microsoft isn't the answer. Microsoft is the question, and the answer is NO.
Tim Little
John Morris wrote:
>
> >In my case, I tried Knews, Gnus, Pine, SLRN, NN-Tk, and others. All had
> >their strengths, but still felt anemic, slow, and awkward compared to
> >Agent. It was enjoyable (for the most part) auditioning these various
> >apps - - and also a good education in compiling, piping, etc. Time
> >consuming, though.
>
> I'm curious..... do you think you disliked the above Linux
> apps because they are command line oriented?
>
> of the CLI vs GUI thing?
>
> automated or offline capable as Agent 1.5... is it?
Actually, I myself am CLI oriented. If someone gave me an Xterm/CLI news
program that could do what Agent does _as quickly as_ Agent does it, I
would have no problems using it.
One thing that sinks such offerings as NN-Tk - - and some others - - is
the time consuming newsgroup updating that is required before a reading
session. There are various tricks out there for dealing with this, but
the fact remains that Agent handles this process in a much more elegant
fashion than most newsreaders in the free world. Agent's filters are
unparalleled for their flexibility and speed, IMHO. I know of no Linux
newsreader capable of handling multipart postings as Agent does.
Netscape's news functions are not in the same league as Agent's.
However, it is the only thing out there I know of that can give me news,
mail, and web in one nice package. No, Netscape's news is the best
temporary solution - - but I'm definitely looking for something better.
TL
David M. Cook
On Sun, 04 Jan 1998 01:41:04 GMT, Roadkill On Rye <road...@super.zippo.com>
wrote:
You can probably get more complete answers on news.software.readers where
the author of SLRN hangs out.
>-- inline html viewing
SLRN is a text-based news client. You could probably pipe HTML to a
browser, though. I find html in usenet posts completely useless and
something to be strongly discouraged. I suspect the author cares for the
idea even less than I do.
>-- customizable view management like that in Forte Agent 1.5*
Dunno what that is, but almost everything in SLRN is customizable.
>-- two-byte language reading/writing
I think metamail can decode unicode text. You'd have to have an editor that
can handle it (there are a couple).
>-- one-step deleting of unwanted articles from the article list
? Hit the delete key? Use a score of -9999? Dunno what your asking for.
>-- automatic fetching of new articles periodically
You could write a script to do that.
>-- automatic spell-checking when posting (yours is obviously not set to
>do this)
A function of the editor, not of the newsreader. Pico, JED, and many other
editors have interfaces to ispell.
>-- automatic updating of groups list
Yes.
>-- filtering by article size
Yes.
>-- automatic decoding of binaries that meet certain conditions
SLRN interfaces to metamail for that. For pics, for instance, the xv viewer
will pop up once the article has been downloaded.
>-- different signatures per group
>-- different personalities per group
SLRN supports grouplens.
>-- backtracking through a remembered list of viewed articles
Not sure.
>-- threaded viewing
Of course.
>-- clickable URLs, etc.
With Olly's clickable URL patch. Otherwise, you can hit the U key and get a
pop-up with all the URLs in the post
>-- customizable, multi-pane interface
Yes.
>-- watch threads
? Use a scorefile.
>-- ignore threads
SLRN doesn't "unravel" threads by default. If you really want to avoid
certain topics, use a scorefile.
>-- keep threads
?
>-- conditional purges
I'm not sure what that is, but I don't think it applies.
>-- group name searching
Yes.
>-- authentication (for commercial news services like Super Zippo and
>Supernews)
Yes.
Dave Cook
David M. Cook
On Sat, 03 Jan 1998 21:07:35 GMT, John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> wrote:
>>In my case, I tried Knews, Gnus, Pine, SLRN, NN-Tk, and others. All had
>>their strengths, but still felt anemic, slow, and awkward compared to
>>Agent. It was enjoyable (for the most part) auditioning these various
>OK... well i will _definitely take you advise
Please don't. SLRN and GNUS are excellent newsreaders. SLRN in particular
is NOT slow. To me it simply sounds like he was used to agent and would not
accept anything not like it.
Dave Cook
John Morris
>Robin thinks that you read News while your are online. That isn´t very
>cheap. When you install a local news server (like leafnode), you go
No... I do NOT like reading news online. With Agent 1.5...
it dials, goes online, grabs all th new headers in my
subscribed groups, and hangs up.
I then mark the headers I want the bodies to, it goes back
online and grabs the actual message bodies.
THIS is what i want in a Linux news app. <G> Offline
capability.
So... now that that is clear... what do I need?
If Leafnode is it... send me the email on how to set it up
please. <g> Thnaks!
John Morris
>Please don't. SLRN and GNUS are excellent newsreaders. SLRN in particular
>is NOT slow. To me it simply sounds like he was used to agent and would not
>accept anything not like it.
OK... BUT can either slrn or Gnus do newsgroups stuff
OFFLINE?
If yes... how do I set it up?
Roadkill On Rye
dmc...@cts.com (David M. Cook) made the following comments in
comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>You can probably get more complete answers on news.software.readers where
>the author of SLRN hangs out.
And get accused of trolling?
>
>>-- customizable view management like that in Forte Agent 1.5*
>
>Dunno what that is, but almost everything in SLRN is customizable.
See the asterisk? See the detailed explanation at the end of my post?
That's what view management is.
>>-- one-step deleting of unwanted articles from the article list
>
>? Hit the delete key? Use a score of -9999? Dunno what your asking for.
When you download a list of articles from the server, some clients don't
let you delete parts of the list manually (Outlook Express, for
example). I find this a major annoyance.
>
>>-- automatic fetching of new articles periodically
>
>You could write a script to do that.
Or anything else. The news client should have such a feature.
>
>>-- automatic spell-checking when posting (yours is obviously not set to
>>do this)
>
>A function of the editor, not of the newsreader. Pico, JED, and many other
>editors have interfaces to ispell.
But the news client should have a built-in hook that automatically calls
the spell checker when posting, if desired.
>>-- keep threads
This means that when you do a purge, the kept articles will not be
deleted.
>>-- conditional purges
>
>I'm not sure what that is, but I don't think it applies.
It means deleting articles according to criteria you set, such as read
articles, or unread articles without bodies, etc. Tools like this keep
your local article list and store of articles manageable.
Thanks for going through my list in detail.
--
roadkill
"Do not assume that because I am frivolous I am shallow; I don't
assume that because you are grave you are profound."
-- Sydney Smith
David M. Cook
On Sun, 04 Jan 1998 21:46:44 GMT, Roadkill On Rye <road...@super.zippo.com>
wrote:
>>Dunno what that is, but almost everything in SLRN is customizable.
>See the asterisk? See the detailed explanation at the end of my post?
>That's what view management is.
OK. I was reading very quickly.
>When you download a list of articles from the server, some clients don't
>let you delete parts of the list manually (Outlook Express, for
>example). I find this a major annoyance.
I always use SLRN via nntp, so I'm not really familiar with the offline
newsreading features. I comes with a utility called slrnpull for "sucking"
news into a local news spool, although this could be replaced with leafnode,
suck, cnews, etc.
>>>-- automatic fetching of new articles periodically
>>You could write a script to do that.
>Or anything else. The news client should have such a feature.
A difference in philosophy between windows and unix. Please see
http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/unix.html
It would not be hard at all to write a short script (you wouldn't need a
script if it was just a one liner) to be executed periodically as a cron
job. I don't see any reason the newsreader should do this when the cron
facility is already there. And having the newsreader do it would require
keeping it running, which seems like a big waste of resources.
>But the news client should have a built-in hook that automatically calls
>the spell checker when posting, if desired.
Again, a difference in philosophy.
>>I'm not sure what that is, but I don't think it applies.
>It means deleting articles according to criteria you set, such as read
>articles, or unread articles without bodies, etc. Tools like this keep
>your local article list and store of articles manageable.
Again, I'm not familiar with offline newsreading capabilities.
>Thanks for going through my list in detail.
You should still ask on news.software.readers. You'll find much more
experienced users there.
Dave
Tim Little
David M. Cook wrote:
>
> On Sat, 03 Jan 1998 21:07:35 GMT, John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> wrote:
>
> >>In my case, I tried Knews, Gnus, Pine, SLRN, NN-Tk, and others. All had
> >>their strengths, but still felt anemic, slow, and awkward compared to
> >>Agent. It was enjoyable (for the most part) auditioning these various
>
> >OK... well i will _definitely take you advise
>
> is NOT slow. To me it simply sounds like he was used to agent and would not
> accept anything not like it.
>
Problem is, Dave, that "slow" is a relative term. Compared to Agent, the
functions of the above named do indeed seem slow and/or cumbersome.
TL
Christopher B. Browne
On Sun, 04 Jan 1998 21:34:46 GMT, John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> posted:
>
>>Please don't. SLRN and GNUS are excellent newsreaders. SLRN in particular
>>is NOT slow. To me it simply sounds like he was used to agent and would not
>>accept anything not like it.
>
>OFFLINE?
No, they cannot. This is quite intentional; there is no reason to mess up
perfectly good programs by throwing huge gratuitous amounts of spurious
functionality into them. They are designed to connect to other subsystems
that maintain news feeds. And if you wish to maintain a local news feed,
then there are tools to do that.
For instance, you may wish to install Leafnode, which is a simple NNTP server.
It collects news, drops it into directories on your local machine, and then
allows local programs to create NNTP connections so as to read the news
locally.
See: <http://www.troll.no/freebies/leafnode.html>
You could connect *any* newsreader to leafnode; if you have a LAN at home
with a Windows box, you could even use Agent or Gravity to access the
leafnode NNTP feed. This is generally considered advantagous; why rewrite
news server functionality in every program, when you can do it once and
share it across all news readers?
SLRN also has a tool called slrnpull that serves similar purpose; you run
slrnpull to pull over articles into a local spool; slrn can then read the
messages from the local spool without the need to be online. I use slrn and
slrnpull.
--
Christopher B. Browne, cbbr...@hex.net, chris_...@sdt.com
PGP Fingerprint: 10 5A 20 3C 39 5A D3 12 D9 54 26 22 FF 1F E9 16
URL: <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/>
Bill Gates to his broker: "You idiot, I said $150 million on **SNAPPLE**!!!"
John Morris
POSTED AND MAILED
>No, they cannot. This is quite intentional; there is no reason to mess up
>perfectly good programs by throwing huge gratuitous amounts of spurious
>functionality into them. They are designed to connect to other subsystems
>that maintain news feeds. And if you wish to maintain a local news feed,
>then there are tools to do that.
AHHHH.... now I am beginning to see the light! <g> Thanks
for the insight. Basically what you are saying is that
Linux apps are somewhat modular in nature.
>For instance, you may wish to install Leafnode, which is a simple NNTP server.
>It collects news, drops it into directories on your local machine, and then
>allows local programs to create NNTP connections so as to read the news
>locally.
I'm having a somewhat hard time "seeing" that my Linux
machine can also be a _local newsserver. I've never had any
experience with that having come from Windows.
Is there a easy tutorial that explains all this somewhere?
I need something that is written as if the person reading it
is from another planet. <g>
John Morris
Roadkill On Rye
Omegaman <ome...@cmq.com> made the following comments in
comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>> the result turns out to be the ugly abomination shown on Robin's page,
>> they still point to it and say, "Look at my beautiful baby!" Personally,
>> I'd rather eat a dead possum than have something like that on my
>> computer screen.
>
>So you've never used Gnus but merely looking at Robin's page and you
>can claim it an "ugly abomination."
That's OK, most of the people commenting here have never (really,
extensively) used Forte Agent, so they don't know what a news reader can
be made to do *without* extensive user programming and *without* looking
abominable.
brian kimball
Omegaman wrote:
> So you've never used Gnus but merely looking at Robin's page and you
> can claim it an "ugly abomination."
Anything running in emacs is an ugly abomination.
Florian Kuehnert
jmo...@nemonet.com (John Morris) writes:
> >Please don't. SLRN and GNUS are excellent newsreaders. SLRN in particular
> >is NOT slow. To me it simply sounds like he was used to agent and would not
> >accept anything not like it.
> OK... BUT can either slrn or Gnus do newsgroups stuff
> OFFLINE?
> If yes... how do I set it up?
slrn can (there´s slrnpull in the package), but I would advice you to
take leafnode. I can send you a mini-HOWTO for that, if you drop me a
short mail.
Florian
--
- "Halten Sie sich bereit, auf mein Kommando zu feuern!"
- "Auf Ihr Kommando? Ich dachte auf das fremde Schiff..."
-- Sebastian Kuck in de.rec.sf.startrek.aktuell
Florian Kuehnert
jmo...@nemonet.com (John Morris) writes:
> THIS is what i want in a Linux news app. <G> Offline
> capability.
Have you already considered leafnode? This does exactly what you want
and can be compiled and installed in 15 minutes. It is quite powerful,
but very easy to maintain/configure.
Florian
--
"de.alt.sf.st-versus-b5 separates the boys from the men."
-- Marc Zittarz
Bruce Scott TOK
I can only speak for trn, but I'll answer a couple of these points...
In article <34d10175....@snews.zippo.com>,
Roadkill On Rye <road...@super.zippo.com> wrote:
|> dmc...@cts.com (David M. Cook) made the following comments in
|> comp.os.linux.advocacy:
|> >>-- one-step deleting of unwanted articles from the article list
|> >
|> >? Hit the delete key? Use a score of -9999? Dunno what your asking for.
|>
|> When you download a list of articles from the server, some clients don't
|> let you delete parts of the list manually (Outlook Express, for
|> example). I find this a major annoyance.
I know of no Unix rn-based client with this shortcoming.
|> >>-- automatic fetching of new articles periodically
|> >
|> >You could write a script to do that.
|>
|> Or anything else. The news client should have such a feature.
Auto-fetching appears to be a function of the news _transporting_ agent,
not the reader. It happens here by default. New articles to selected
threads appear selected, automatically.
|> >>-- automatic spell-checking when posting (yours is obviously not set to
|> >>do this)
|> >
|> >A function of the editor, not of the newsreader. Pico, JED, and many other
|> >editors have interfaces to ispell.
|>
|> But the news client should have a built-in hook that automatically calls
|> the spell checker when posting, if desired.
trn appears to have this although like a good unixer I do it through the
editor (Emacs, what else :-)
In good unix fashion, you get a choice which editor to come in through
the "hook" (like everything else, it's an environment variable you can
change manually or set automatically through your shell, in which the
option you set can be a function of where you're logging in from or from
what sort of machine or terminal, or... :-)
|> >>-- keep threads
|>
|> This means that when you do a purge, the kept articles will not be
|> deleted.
This works either way in trn: kill selected threads, or kill everything
else _but_ selected threads, or just kill the ones you typed 'k' on (the
manual option).
|> >>-- conditional purges
|> >
|> >I'm not sure what that is, but I don't think it applies.
|>
|> It means deleting articles according to criteria you set, such as read
|> articles, or unread articles without bodies, etc. Tools like this keep
|> your local article list and store of articles manageable.
We call this killfile processing. It used to be really great under rn
when everyone had a _slow_ feed, got a bit lax under newer readers.
|> Thanks for going through my list in detail.
One thing this will do is to demonstrate the complete difference in
philosophy (ie, culture) between unix and MS. In some ways this "ours
is better, no ours is, really" reminds me of the discussions that
sometimes crop up here as to whether English or German is better for
scientific literature. Of course, you don't really have the unequal
corporate/free-culture difference in the languages that you have between
even unix but especially Linux and MS.
For you MS'ers out there who know a little about unix -- what is the
status of "regular expression" handling in MS? That's really powerful;
I wouldn't want to do without it in text manipulation, auto or manual.
--
Mach's gut!
Bruce Scott "Don't mourn. Organise!" -- Joe Hill
Judi Bari, 1949-1997
b...@ipp.mpg.de --> http://www.oro.net/~dscanlan/bari.html
Bruce Scott TOK
In article <34afe8e...@news.nemonet.com>,
John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> wrote:
|> Anyway.... what is "gpl-ed"?
It's the GNU way of licensing things so they can't be snatched up into
corporate secrecy by raiders. Read some of your stuff under wherever
your distribution keeps the FAQs for more.
|> And.... how do I download and install a Linux app such as
|> Knews? Is it pretty much like installing a Win 95 app?
If you get a binary then all you need is to unpack it the way the README
says. It is that easy. Even if you have to compile it you usually
simply type make after unpacking it, and then moving the executable
(perhaps) to wherever the README says.
|> I am using Netscape 3 for email on Linux.
I've tried that and it is inferior to nearly everything else I've seen.
Browsers try to do everything but are generally only good at browsing.
|> BTW... what does everyone think of using a dedicated news
|> app for news versus using Deja News thru a browser?
|>
|> I've tried using Deja News... and even want to like it....
|> BUT it seems so AWKWARD compared to Agent 1.5.
|>
|> Is this just the nature of the beast.. or am I not using
|> Deja News correct?
It's the nature of the beast. The only reason to read news that way is
if your newsfeed lacks groups you want to read.
|> Bottom line.... is a dedicated news app regardless if it's
|> under Linux or Win95 _ALWAYS gonna be better than Deja News?
Very likely.
Bruce Scott TOK
In article <34c6ecbb....@snews.zippo.com>,
Roadkill On Rye <road...@super.zippo.com> wrote:
|> I prefer Agent because I like to have a stable of groups that I monitor
|> regularly, and in each group, to follow certain threads that interest me
|> while ignoring the rest. I also like to find certain people in each
|> group who have something positive to offer, and to make sure I catch
|> every one of their posts. And of course I occasionally run into someone
|> I want to put in the bozo box so I don't have to read their posts.
|> (Ragosta and Tholen spring to mind.) This approach to Usenetting is not
|> well supported by Deja News. For the same reason as you, I cannot use
|> Linux 100% until I find a news reader as capable as Agent (and an email
|> client as capable as Becky! Internet Mail).
This is the philsophy of every rn-based reader and can be considered to
be basic minimum functionality of anything purporting to call itself a
newsreader. You must be very new to the scene (or were the victim of
all those misguided people who say you should read news under Emacs;
Goddess, I'll never do that).
Bruce Scott TOK
In article <874t3j6...@cairo.in-brb.de>,
Florian Kuehnert <su...@gmx.de> wrote:
|> jmo...@nemonet.com (John Morris) writes:
|>
|> |> THIS is what i want in a Linux news app. <G> Offline
|> |> capability.
|>
|> Have you already considered leafnode? This does exactly what you want
|> and can be compiled and installed in 15 minutes. It is quite powerful,
|> but very easy to maintain/configure.
True to unix philosophy, leafnode is the news _transport_ agent
(right?). The reader gets things from that independently.
Bruce Scott TOK
In article <34AF1211...@erols.com>,
Tim Little <twli...@erols.com> wrote:
>Netscape's news functions are not in the same league as Agent's.
>However, it is the only thing out there I know of that can give me news,
>mail, and web in one nice package. No, Netscape's news is the best
>temporary solution - - but I'm definitely looking for something better.
This is Windows philosophy. If you can't get over it then Linux is
likely to disappoint you (it is a matter of culture). But when you get
used to the fact that you can be running each of a browser, a
newsreader, an editor, and an email client each in their separate window
under X, but _simultaneously_, you'll never look back.
In addition to that I've got a turbulence code running in yet another
window (an xterm), and I won't have to sink all this other stuff to deal
with the graphics processing when that code finishes.
David M. Cook
On Sun, 04 Jan 1998 15:53:58 +0000, Tim Little <twli...@erols.com> wrote:
>Problem is, Dave, that "slow" is a relative term. Compared to Agent, the
>functions of the above named do indeed seem slow and/or cumbersome.
You're comparing apples and oranges. SLRN is usually used via PPP, while
agent creates a local news spool.
And from what I've heard from people that use both, SLRN is *very* fast at
sucking news, too.
Dave Cook
Florian Kuehnert
b...@rzg.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK) writes:
> |> |> THIS is what i want in a Linux news app. <G> Offline
> |> |> capability.
> |> Have you already considered leafnode? This does exactly what you want
> |> and can be compiled and installed in 15 minutes. It is quite powerful,
> |> but very easy to maintain/configure.
> True to unix philosophy, leafnode is the news _transport_ agent
> (right?). The reader gets things from that independently.
Yup. Leafnode is a "real" news server.
Florian
--
"Knock knock" - "Who's there?" - "Kosh" - "Kosh who?" - "Gesundheit"
-- Sheridan & Ivanova
Tim Little
Bruce Scott TOK wrote:
>
> In article <34AF1211...@erols.com>,
> Tim Little <twli...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Netscape's news functions are not in the same league as Agent's.
> >However, it is the only thing out there I know of that can give me news,
> >mail, and web in one nice package. No, Netscape's news is the best
> >temporary solution - - but I'm definitely looking for something better.
>
> This is Windows philosophy. If you can't get over it then Linux is
> likely to disappoint you (it is a matter of culture). But when you get
> used to the fact that you can be running each of a browser, a
> newsreader, an editor, and an email client each in their separate window
> under X, but _simultaneously_, you'll never look back.
>
No need to sell me on Linux - - I rarely boot into MSDOS 7 GUI. But,
truth be told, until Forte decides to do a port for Linux, the Microsoft
crowd has got a better thing going for it where USENET is concerned.
Really, SLRN, Gnus, and Knews - - so often held up as the best Linux has
to offer - - are pitiful substitutes. Great pieces of code, yes, but
not suited to the many tasks that Agent is.
I've yet to meet/correspond with anyone who has used Agent who believed
it was anything less than the fastest, fullest featured news app
available. And that goes for a number of Linux converts who, on this one
subject, agreed over the course of a long thread here that Linux news
apps make one requirement of MSDOS 7 users - - that they be willing, at
least for now, to compromise.
I see the "Windows philosophy" gaining ground day by day in the Linux
world. If I may get on my soapbox here, we need to be every bit as
ruthless in propogating Linux as B. Gates has been in propogating his.
Even as he was willing to take the best of what the competition had to
offer, Linux developers should have no qualms about taking the best of
what can be had from MSDOS 7 GUI (I love making that little dig!). I see
evidence that the KDE project is doing just that - - putting to use
those window management devices that are pleasant to use while - - most
importantly - - putting them over a UNIX OS! Now THAT'S the way to get
ahead. Let Bill spend the billions studying consumer feedback, then take
the results and run!
I see the strong possibility that one or both of two things will
happen: Forte will grab instant market share by porting to Linux; or,
KDE developers, who seem to be in touch with the needs of a broader user
base than many prior projects have been, will put together the best
Linux news app yet. Or both may happen - - even though Forte claims it
has no such project in the works.
Regards,
TL
George Russell
On Mon, 05 Jan 1998 22:04:33 +0000, Tim Little <twli...@erols.com>
wrote:
>Bruce Scott TOK wrote:
>> This is Windows philosophy. If you can't get over it then Linux is
>> likely to disappoint you (it is a matter of culture). But when you get
>> used to the fact that you can be running each of a browser, a
>> newsreader, an editor, and an email client each in their separate window
>> under X, but _simultaneously_, you'll never look back.
If you did it wouldn't be hard to see Netscape,Eudora,Free
Agent,Arachnophilia simultaneously on Windows.
>
>No need to sell me on Linux - - I rarely boot into MSDOS 7 GUI. But,
>truth be told, until Forte decides to do a port for Linux, the Microsoft
>crowd has got a better thing going for it where USENET is concerned.
>Really, SLRN, Gnus, and Knews - - so often held up as the best Linux has
>to offer - - are pitiful substitutes. Great pieces of code, yes, but
>not suited to the many tasks that Agent is.
None of the above are i think, all in one, kitchen sink solutions for
a non-programmer/or experienced unix user. In this regard, agent is a
better solution.
<snip praise of Agent>
True. Agent is the only internet app I run from Windows. Roll on
krn.
<snip....>
>
>I see the strong possibility that one or both of two things will
>happen: Forte will grab instant market share by porting to Linux; or,
Alas, unlikely.
>KDE developers, who seem to be in touch with the needs of a broader user
>base than many prior projects have been, will put together the best
>Linux news app yet
best I am not worried about - ease of use and setup/installation, and
integral offline reading of news are essential for me though.
>Regards,
>TL
George Russell
Roadkill On Rye
Florian Kuehnert <su...@gmx.de> made the following comments in
comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>b...@rzg.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK) writes:
>
>> |> |> THIS is what i want in a Linux news app. <G> Offline
>> |> |> capability.
>> |> Have you already considered leafnode? This does exactly what you want
>> |> and can be compiled and installed in 15 minutes. It is quite powerful,
>> |> but very easy to maintain/configure.
>> True to unix philosophy, leafnode is the news _transport_ agent
>> (right?). The reader gets things from that independently.
>
>Yup. Leafnode is a "real" news server.
Which of the following is true about Leafnode?
(1) It sucks up all the article headers for all 50,000 Usenet groups on
your feed.
(2) It sucks up all the article headers and bodies for all 50,000 Usenet
groups and stores them on your local NN GB RAID.
(3) It sucks up the article headers only for the groups you designate
(i.e., subscribe to).
(4) It sucks up the bodies only for the subscribed groups.
(5) I've missed the point entirely.
Roadkill On Rye
dmc...@cts.com (David M. Cook) made the following comments in
comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>On Sun, 04 Jan 1998 15:53:58 +0000, Tim Little <twli...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>Problem is, Dave, that "slow" is a relative term. Compared to Agent, the
>>functions of the above named do indeed seem slow and/or cumbersome.
>
>You're comparing apples and oranges. SLRN is usually used via PPP, while
>agent creates a local news spool.
Not necessarily. Agent is used to download headers and/or bodies
selectively, so it's very good over PPP.
>
>And from what I've heard from people that use both, SLRN is *very* fast at
>sucking news, too.
But does it do so selectively? If not, then it really sucks. :-)
Roadkill On Rye
Tim Little <twli...@erols.com> made the following comments in
comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>I see the strong possibility that one or both of two things will
>happen: Forte will grab instant market share by porting to Linux; or,
>KDE developers, who seem to be in touch with the needs of a broader user
>base than many prior projects have been, will put together the best
>Linux news app yet. Or both may happen - - even though Forte claims it
>has no such project in the works.
Given that Forte development has slowed to a trickle, or possibly has
stopped dead in its tracks, I'd bet on the KDE crowd.
Case in point -- Forte has been promising CD-ROM versions with printed
manuals for three years. Several months ago they confirmed the mailing
addresses of everyone they owed such a version. Now they are starting to
give refunds to people who ask when it will be available.
'Nother case in point -- Forte used to email updates to its registered
users around once a month. There haven't been any such updates in
months.
YACIP -- It used to be possible to spot new Agent beta versions in the
headers of people like Lance Boehm. Now it's not even possible to spot
Lance.
I agree that it's still the best news reader around, but it's just a
matter of time before it's overtaken.
Robin S. Socha
>> "JM" == John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> writes:
JM> OK... BUT can either slrn or Gnus do newsgroups stuff OFFLINE?
Quassia Gnus provides offline support. But...
JM> If yes... how do I set it up?
Not at all. You use a local newsserver. This isn't Windos land...
Robin
--
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University
Masochist: Windows programmer with a smile!
Omegaman
road...@super.zippo.com (Roadkill On Rye) writes:
> I prefer Agent because I like to have a stable of groups that I monitor
> regularly, and in each group, to follow certain threads that interest me
> while ignoring the rest. I also like to find certain people in each
> group who have something positive to offer, and to make sure I catch
> every one of their posts. And of course I occasionally run into someone
> I want to put in the bozo box so I don't have to read their posts.
> (Ragosta and Tholen spring to mind.) This approach to Usenetting is not
> well supported by Deja News. For the same reason as you, I cannot use
> Linux 100% until I find a news reader as capable as Agent (and an email
> client as capable as Becky! Internet Mail).
Well that's just scoring. Slrn has it, as does the slrnpull
nntpfetcher bundled with it. Gnus has even more detailed scoring
mechanisms. If that's your "killer feature," I assure you that it
exists. Scoring is a step up from mere kill-filing that supports the
"thread following" you mention as well "author highlighting" and
numerous other uses that make newsreading a pleasure rather than a
chore.
The vast majority of the features you mentioned earlier in the thread
exist as well, albeit in a different form. This is the crux of the
matter -- you are comfortable with the tool you're currently using.
There's nothing wrong with that. If Forte would see the light and
bring their reader to Linux, I'm sure it would probably bring more
people to Linux. And that would be great.
Of course, it's definitely not going to stop me from my preferred
choice (and at least equally as capable choice -- I have used both),
XEmacs+Gnus. But it sure wouldn't hurt Linux to have an "Agent-alike"
reader available if Forte won't do the port.
Of course, I can use DejaNews within Gnus to search ....
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:ome...@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
PGP Key fingerprint = | How are you gonna come?
6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 | With your hands upon your head,
59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 | Or on the trigger of your gun?"
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key | _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Little
Roadkill On Rye wrote:
>
> 'Nother case in point -- Forte used to email updates to its registered
> users around once a month. There haven't been any such updates in
> months.
>
> YACIP -- It used to be possible to spot new Agent beta versions in the
> headers of people like Lance Boehm. Now it's not even possible to spot
> Lance.
>
> I agree that it's still the best news reader around, but it's just a
> matter of time before it's overtaken.
> --
> roadkill
> "Do not assume that because I am frivolous I am shallow; I don't
> assume that because you are grave you are profound."
> -- Sydney Smith
Wow - - this is some bummer news. I can't help but agree, though, that
the much improved news functions in Communicator and MSIE would drive
nails into the Forte coffin. I've long felt that Agent was too good a
deal - - it was/is a bargain. But they could hardly afford to charge
more when the leading web browsers were putting news functionality into
their products.
I'm even more hopeful now that the KDE product will meet my expections.
TL
JEDI
On Mon, 05 Jan 1998 22:04:33 +0000, Tim Little <twli...@erols.com> wrote:
>Bruce Scott TOK wrote:
>>
>> In article <34AF1211...@erols.com>,
>> Tim Little <twli...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>No need to sell me on Linux - - I rarely boot into MSDOS 7 GUI. But,
>truth be told, until Forte decides to do a port for Linux, the Microsoft
>crowd has got a better thing going for it where USENET is concerned.
>Really, SLRN, Gnus, and Knews - - so often held up as the best Linux has
>to offer - - are pitiful substitutes. Great pieces of code, yes, but
They aren't complete substitutes.
However, Agent is a pitiful substitute for a localhost
or lan based NNTP server.
>not suited to the many tasks that Agent is.
>
>I've yet to meet/correspond with anyone who has used Agent who believed
>it was anything less than the fastest, fullest featured news app
Much of Agent's feature set seems to serve to minimize interactive
online time. With a news spool, many of those features become
unnecessary.
Agent is NOT the fastest.
Any local news spool (nntp server) is faster.
>available. And that goes for a number of Linux converts who, on this one
>subject, agreed over the course of a long thread here that Linux news
>apps make one requirement of MSDOS 7 users - - that they be willing, at
>least for now, to compromise.
>
[deletia]
JEDI
On Sun, 04 Jan 1998 21:34:46 GMT, John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> wrote:
>
>>Please don't. SLRN and GNUS are excellent newsreaders. SLRN in particular
>>is NOT slow. To me it simply sounds like he was used to agent and would not
>>accept anything not like it.
>
>OFFLINE?
>
Download leafnode and follow the instructions...
JEDI
On Sun, 04 Jan 1998 15:53:58 +0000, Tim Little <twli...@erols.com> wrote:
>David M. Cook wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 03 Jan 1998 21:07:35 GMT, John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>In my case, I tried Knews, Gnus, Pine, SLRN, NN-Tk, and others. All had
>> >>their strengths, but still felt anemic, slow, and awkward compared to
>> >>Agent. It was enjoyable (for the most part) auditioning these various
>>
>> >OK... well i will _definitely take you advise
>>
>> is NOT slow. To me it simply sounds like he was used to agent and would not
>> accept anything not like it.
>>
>
>
>Problem is, Dave, that "slow" is a relative term. Compared to Agent, the
>functions of the above named do indeed seem slow and/or cumbersome.
Get your core keystrokes down and any of those are much
faster to navigate than any GUI newsreader, agent included.
Mice are fun for beginners to aimlessly wander the software
but bog down anyone who's past that point. If the mouse is
jettisonable then you've just go tin with pretty widgets.
Anything else is a function of the downstream newsserver...
JEDI
On 5 Jan 1998 17:43:13 GMT, David M. Cook <dmc...@cts.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 04 Jan 1998 15:53:58 +0000, Tim Little <twli...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>Problem is, Dave, that "slow" is a relative term. Compared to Agent, the
>>functions of the above named do indeed seem slow and/or cumbersome.
>
>agent creates a local news spool.
SLRN is an NNTP newsreader.
It can use any NNTP newsserver, including your own.
leafnode+slrn toasts Agent.
>
>And from what I've heard from people that use both, SLRN is *very* fast at
>sucking news, too.
I wouldn't know, cron does all that for me in the wee hours...
JEDI
On Mon, 05 Jan 1998 09:06:43 GMT, Roadkill On Rye <road...@super.zippo.com> wr
ote:
>Omegaman <ome...@cmq.com> made the following comments in
>comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>
>>> the result turns out to be the ugly abomination shown on Robin's page,
>>> they still point to it and say, "Look at my beautiful baby!" Personally,
>>> I'd rather eat a dead possum than have something like that on my
>>> computer screen.
>>
>>can claim it an "ugly abomination."
>
>extensively) used Forte Agent, so they don't know what a news reader can
It doesn't have an interface thats inviting to anyone used
to the responsivness of a local news spool. Without that,
Agent cooking my breakfast for me really doesn't impress me.
>be made to do *without* extensive user programming and *without* looking
>abominable.
It may look abombinable but, it doesn't interfere with my
flaming.... er posting...
Roadkill On Rye
"Robin S. Socha" <ro...@franck.pc.uni-koeln.de> made the following
comments in comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>>> "JM" == John Morris <jmo...@nemonet.com> writes:
>
>JM> OK... BUT can either slrn or Gnus do newsgroups stuff OFFLINE?
>
>Quassia Gnus provides offline support. But...
>
>JM> If yes... how do I set it up?
>
>Not at all. You use a local newsserver. This isn't Windos land...
Uh, what about people running Linux on a standalone PC at home, with a
PPP connection to their ISP, and living in a country that charges for
phone use by the minute? We don't all have the benefit of a University
or Corporate environment, you know.